Guild Wars 2

I would imagine that it’s for the story quest around level 50 where you need to go to the grove in the sylvari capital.

Jeffrey Vaughn.1793:

That creature was put there specifically to be avoided. It’s on a long patrol path around the temple, and easy to avoid. In a similar fashion, if you stop to fight a patrolling knight, you’re likely to have another one wander in during the fight, then another, etc. Not every story step is “Destroy every enemy on the map”.

I’ve noticed this theme more often actually. A number of story quests I did this past week were definitely about just walking around clicking things and avoiding the mobs (defending for trinity for example).

You will no doubt call it a design decision but it does make a lot of those quests or events a bit un-epic in the sense there is an epic battle but I am on the fringes just doing a few bits and bobs. It does take the heroism out of the character story in my view.

The massive insta kill spikes are a bit too common for my liking and to purposefully put in mobs that are to be avoided is something to think about but it’s not a mechanic that I find a positive addition to the general experience.

CrossedHorse.4261:

Gehenna.3625:

CrossedHorse.4261:

People aren’t given pay rises at work just because they have a second child.

Hahahahahaha….oh dear….

But to keep to your analogy, there are a lot of governments who do give additional benefits per child and there is such a thing as family discounts, etc.

And as mentioned before, other MMOs are more helpful in this because they understand that a fair number of people play alts but that it doesn’t work if you expect the same effort for each character since people will get bored with it more easily as they make more characters. It’s just how it is.

I’m sure there are some people who feel there are certain benefits to having alts – not everything in the game is per account, some of it is per character.

There’s really no reason to be rude or treat me like an idiot.

Also, I didn’t say it was totally fair or a perfect system. The argument I said was flawed was simply flawed in support of its case. So I pointed out a flaw in the argument. If you read my post again, you’ll see that I also think it would be nice to have things faster, but that on the way the system works, it doesn’t and can’t work that way.

You’ll just have to forgive me for laughing because I really think comparing it to having real children is rather out there but ok, I do see your point.

GW2 is different in some ways and not so different in other ways.

Everybody will have their own interpretation of the Manifesto, as the terminology based in the Manefisto are things that are completely open to personal interpretation.

People can call other people ignorant but in the end it’s just a different opinion based on a different frame of reference.

Now I got myself caught into a big discussion and I do apologise for that. All I can say is that I’ve done my best to avoid replying to the other person involved since the mods rightfully took out the posts involved.

The bottom line for me is though that nobody can prove anything. There is no scientific fact or legal document to prove anybody right. We can only see that the Manifesto was worded in a way that brought out lots of emotion and sadly still does. It has been years and the opinions haven’t really changed and never will, because it’s everybody’s personal interpretation in the end. There is no proving wrong or right.

Some will say this game is a breath of fresh air and is exactly what it promised to be and others will see it’s the biggest lie a company ever made. Interestingly enough both can be right at the same time. Just not right for each other.

And it just shows how much it was open for interpretation, because years later it’s still being discussed and still not resolved.

My view is that there is nothing to resolve and everybody is right in his opinion about it and just cannot expect other people to look at it the same way. There is no evidence in this matter, just opinion.

So is this game grindy? For me yes, but more to the point of boredom than hard work and I will add that I don’t always see grind as bad. I’ve seen worse grind.
Is this game heroic? Not for me. Poor story telling, horrible voice acting…Not heroic for me.
Did this game take what I liked from GW1 and put it into a persistent world? Not for me.
Is the combat exciting? No, not for me. Too much dodge and auto attack. There are expections, just not enough. The depth that does exist in the combat system is basically optional.

So, for a casual game to play between other games or for just a little something different to do… sure I play this game from time to time.

Is this a game that will ever be my main game like GW1 was for me for 6 years? Obviously no.

See, that’s my opinion. That’s how I feel the Manifesto didn’t represent the atual game.

And you cannot disprove that I feel that way, cause it is just that: an opinion.

CrossedHorse.4261:

People aren’t given pay rises at work just because they have a second child.

Hahahahahaha….oh dear….

But to keep to your analogy, there are a lot of governments who do give additional benefits per child and there is such a thing as family discounts, etc.

And as mentioned before, other MMOs are more helpful in this because they understand that a fair number of people play alts but that it doesn’t work if you expect the same effort for each character since people will get bored with it more easily as they make more characters. It’s just how it is.

Lurch.9517:

I still fail to see what point you are trying to make? I do not really play spvp much or Pve so I do not comment or make threads in those sections of the forums as its not the part of the game I really play. WvW rank title is also something I do not really care about. The rank abilities however are character progression so therefore I do care about these as otherwise why would I have bothered getting exotic /ascended gear on my toons in the first place? If you were insisting that fractal ranks were account wide I would not really have an opinion on it as it does not affect me in any way as we are playing different games.

I now understand why you “fail” to see my point….I actually misunderstood what you were trying to say. Now with this post it suddenly dawned on me what you were actually saying…so forget what I said lol, my bad.

To be fair, if they did reply to suggestions they’d either get shot down for not wanting/being able to do it or for not implementing it fast enough or the way you want it.

I would not look for dev replies in the suggestion forum. I am sure they do read them but they don’t use them as a guide for the next patch either. I would be disappointed if they did actually.

As much as I would like them to implement some things I do know that I do not represent everybody or even a majority. Maybe at some points I do but I just don’t know. So I can’t assume Anet must respond to my every whim.

On the other hand it may not be a bad thing for them to show some transparency whenever they implement something new how they took certain ideas into account. But I’m sure the last thing they want is people getting the idea they can solely change this game in spite of everyone else’s wishes.

Either way, any response they give will likely only give negative comments mostly. It’s a no win situation for them I’d say.

Esplen.3940:

Or do high level fractals, while everyone is zerking (not zerging) and dpsing, the support is what holds the group alive.

Thank god there is at least one place in this entire game where it matters what you play….seriously, couldn’t they’ve made it matter in most of this game instead of just one place?

BlueZone.4236:

Playing different aspects of the game is optional. So what?
Doing grind to continuously access the gauntlet is a requirement.
Your dungeon token argument makes zero sense. It’s not like dungeon tokens are a requirement to access certain parts of a dungeon. But this is akin to what the gauntlet requirement is.

Grind is not a defined quantity as some seem to think. It’s personal. Different people get bored or feel something is repetitious at different points. So if you find it grindy and another doesn’t both can be right.

For myself I know there is repetition in any game and that’s ok. But did they get the balance right so it doesn’t feel like chore? Again, it’s personal but I feel the balance is off and they sold this game as not feeling grindy, knowing that a lot of people would feel differently.

Part of the issue is also the reward system. For me the balance between effort and reward is key. Effort is measured by time, challenge and repetition. Reward is what you get as a result as in the sense of completion, fun of the activity and the actual reward.

The problem I see with GW2 is that the lack if difficulty makes any reward feel less valuable. It’s like the 16 year old american kid who gets a car for his b-day and crashes it the next day. You don’t value what comes easy as much as something you work for.

Also the rewards themselves tend to be ok-ish but not much really makes me go wow, I want that. There is some improvement but stats don’t matter so much and the skins are often ugly so there’s not much to really go for.

Then story missions give crap rewards as well. I have the feeling that Anet figured that people would be doing it anyways cause players generaly do follow the story line and forgot that people could actually lose interest in it….and so it becomes a drag.

If you have sparklies in your eyes and believe the shinies that Anet puts in front of you, there is no problem. If you want a little more depth in your experience here, there just isn’t much to go around. It’s all about the game balance, or rather economy instead of looking at what makes a meaningful experience.

Lurch.9517:

Gehenna.3625:

@Lurch, most people who play multiple toons do not care about that ranking as you do or they dedicate one or two toons to something like that. Different players, different goals.

That is not really a meaningful comment. I don’t think I am an odd or specialist case in being a multi toon WvW centric player or rather, I was. If someone does not care about the rank abilities then it just means they don’t care that much what they are doing. Nothing wrong with that but you can hardly refer to it as ‘different goals’.

And you call my comments meaningless…lol

People have different goals in a game. That’s as much a fact as that point that people are different.

I couldn’t give a rats kitten about WvW ranking…there are people out there like that. So WvW ranking is not a goal for me at all. I am simply more PvE oriented and therefore so are my goals or interests if you prefer.

I never said you were the odd one out, but I am saying there are also a lot of people who don’t share your goals just as much as there are who do. So I shouldn’t have said “most”. That was the wrong word.

Navzar.2938:

Gehenna, diminishing returns occurs regardless of whether you playing multiple characters or not. I happens when you farm events in rapid succession in the same area (this would take hours) or when you gather large amounts of drops by farming for an hour or so. It doesn’t really hinder normal non farming game play.

Yes it does. But as I tried to explain I don’t mean DR as in loot but as in the fun level of leveling a character. Again it has NOTHING to do with loot but with the diminishing returns in enjoyment of repeating something over and over.

When you play a lot of alts because you like variation, there is a limit to that and that’s because of something called Diminishing Returns…no not the MF thing, but the thing where repeating content gets less and less interesting as you do it more often.

When you have 2 characters, this is generally not an issue, but if you want to say play one of each class then the leveling process does get tedious after a few characters. Generally MMO makers understand this and therefore make it so leveling alts and gearing them up gets easier as the game matures. Not to easy but easier than before.

By not doing this, GW2 is automatically less alt friendly than other games. The leveling process is too long in this game as it is…I don’t even mean in how much time it takes to level but how repetitious it is going from one heart to the next event, zone after zone after zone…it just gets boring.

In the end it also doesn’t matter if you have 1 or 10 characters because you can only play 1 at a time anyway, so the only advantage you have is variety in playstyle. Now in other MMOs with the trinity it also gives you another advantage: you can fulfil multiple roles with alts, making it easier to make groups. In SWTOR I have 14 characters, 9 of wich are max level. So I have 3 tanks, 3 healers and 3 dps. I had no problem leveling those characters but here I already get bored with leveling around level 40-50 and then I still have 30 levels to go.

@Lurch, most people who play multiple toons do not care about that ranking as you do or they dedicate one or two toons to something like that. Different players, different goals.

Yeh the living story stuff doesn’t quite do it. It’s a little here and a little there. In other threads I’ve compared the approach here as getting a constant stream of snacks, rather than a meal 3 times a day.

In the end they add content but because it trickles in and some of it comes and goes, you either miss parts of it or you don’t have time to get into it as the next bit is around. It sort of sets the pace for you rather than you having some time to get into it.

So for those reasons I would prefer expansions, however, I don’t think this game was set up with that in mind. I think a lot of people overestimate what Anet is actually able to do from a resources point of view.

Of course if the game makes it big in China and they start crying expansion….one never knows.

Vayne.8563:

You’re entitled to your opinion. But English is English. It was my profession. And grind DOES mean to a whole lot of people, killing stuff to gain levels. That’s the first thing wikipedia says about it. That’s what a lot of people use it to mean.

It’s a bit ironic to say English was your profession and use wikipedia as a source. Just saying.

In fact, you support my point, because that’s exactly what happens in this game: you have to kill stuff to advance. So GW2 is grindy. What I mean with my comments is that generally the feeling of it being a lot or repetitive is subjective and therefore the definition of grind changes depending on the person.

Vayne.8563:

Certainly saying gear grind from the manifesto is an impossible place to reach from the words there. In order to get that definition of grind, you literally have to ignore all the sentences around it. And that is NOT how English works.

You’ll excuse me if I don’t accept you as an authority on how English works. Also that is subjective as language is a living thing and changes along with its users…for better or for worse.

Still, in the way I experience GW2 just leveling a toon is that it is a grind. It gets boring as each new zone has the same activities. Don’t care what other games are like, in GW2 leveling bores me as it’s repetitive. So to reach my goal of getting to level 80 it certainly feels like grind to me. Then at 80 getting legendary weapons and ascended items also constitutes grind in my view. So yes GW2 is grindy to me, unlike what was implied in the manifesto. See, this is not a legal battle in court where the letter of the law is what matters. What matters is the impression something gives. Anet either was too dumb to realise this would backfire or they did it on purpose because they knew it would give an impression that would disappoint people…but after they’d have bought the game.

Vayne.8563:

As for how I present things, unless you’ve been here for the long haul, and seen the way things have deteriorated on these forums with regards to what people say, you’d perhaps understand my attitude a bit better.

You don’t get to set the parameters for me. When I started playing the betas and the game was just out the forums were just as bad. Maybe it comes and goes but it’s not a deterioration over time. All this stuff has happened before and on this forum even.

Vayne.8563:

It doesn’t matter that you don’t. But I’ve been fighting an uphill battle for a long time, and I’m still far less offensive than many who continue to post about me.

See and this is not true. You’ve chosen to put yourself in this position. You act like a martyr (shame on you) but you put youself there. You saw the fire and decided to stand in it and you basically encourage people to be offensive to you by your rigidity, arrogance and twisting and turning.

The funniest thing is that in fact you are perpetuating, enabling people to behave like this and to continue to do so, even if just by giving them a target that is always there.

In essence your presence here is part of the problem that you want to solve and you even think you’re successful to a degree because you have a handful of yay-sayers. How sad…the reality is that it you only cause people to get entrenched and increase the traffic on this forum…negative traffic of course, because say what you want but discussions with you are not about how great the game is but about why other people are wrong according to you. I’ve never called you a white knight because I don’t think you are a positive force….you’re basically an apologetic.

You want to defend Anet and their statements as if it’s a court of law, looking at the letters and trying to sell your interpretation as truth as if you work for them by hiding behind the intricacies of the English language….sorry still not buying it.

Vayne.8563:

Sure we’ve had this conversation in previous threads. End of the world time. The problem is, most of the forums are repeat threads. A good percentage anyway. So saying that this thread is repeating what was said before means little.

In fact, most forum threads are repeat threads from other forums from other games. We should have open world dueling was a thread in every game forum that didn’t have it I can think of. Same with open world PvP. Same was imbalance of professions. Some with not enough end game content.

Maybe we should ban every thread the repeats stuff and have like one post. Because that’s what you’d end up with.

As for the rest of it, it’s clear to me you don’t get me and frankly that’s fine. You think that you have the moral high ground because you don’t like the way I say things. Well, I dont’ particularly like the way you say things either. The difference is, I’m not the one complaining about it, or singling you our, or anyone else.

What I see on these forums is more akin to bullying than it is to constructive criticism. And it’s okay if you all want to gang up on me, because you can’t affect me in any significant way.

And lest you think this is just my opinion, there are quite a few people who think I’m bullied on these forums and wonder why I put up with it. I always tell them the same thing.

Because forum posters can’t hurt me.

My stance here has nothing to do with moral high grounds. The problem I have is not the actual opinion you have (different as it may be) but the way you present it. You wield terms like truth and majorities as if you could claim them….but you cannot. You quote generalities to avoid specifics. Each time I call you on a specific item you do this. You never actually answer something, you just retort, deflect or whatever. I actually really wanted to know what you meant with some stuff, but you can’t stop hiding behind those deflections.

“Quite a few people” think you’re being bullied? How many is quite a few? This is my point. What does that mean? It’s such a vague reference, that it could mean 5 as well kitten.

I just don’t like you talking as if you know something that you cannot actually know. And again you’ve clearly avoided that point of it yet again. That tells me enough.

Suppose I wished you were just honest about your opinion instead of wrapping it in all kinds of vague, unsubstantiable references. Nobody’s perfect and it can’t always be helped but I a do not care for people who make a sport out of it, intentionally or not.

I’ve just thrown stuff you said yourself against you and you simply dodge. If you dodge your own statements, that tells me something.

If you get the feeling that I am singling you out, perhaps you shouldn’t account for half the posts in this forum (yes that’s an exaggeration), because you do post a heck of a lot…it’s kinda funny that you think people single you out when you post that much. By the time I get to my next reply you’ve already made multiple posts in the same thread or something like that.

After all is said and done, notwithstanding your efforts, I still think the manifesto was a rather deceitful piece of marketing. Clarifications of any kind do not change that.

Vayne.8563:

Okay, I’m not getting this it takes longer for casual players to get this stuff argument.

Let’s say it takes me 30 days to get something. It takes a casual player the same 30 days to get it. That is to say, the days that player is not playing don’t count, because they’re not playing.

So it takes me 30 days of game time to get the stuff, same as them.

The days they’re not playing, they’re not playing. It’s the same with how much money I earn.

If I get X money per day then I"ll have more money then them after 30 days. But not necessarily more money after they’ve played for 30 days.

Most people get paid by the hour however, not per day. In essence Anet is paying you a full wage for showing up 1 hour a day per week and pay the same to people who work 40 hours a week. So, what should I tell my boss? Sry I can only work for one hour per week so you should pay me the full amount, because it’s not my fault that I only have 1 hour per day? He’d laugh at you and fire you. Aside from how ridiculous that would be it’s simply a matter of rewarding effort over attendance.

And you could argue, yeh but they get gold for it etc. All good and well, but the point is that it’s so easy to get max gear except for the ascended stuff…well that’s time gated and there’s no alternative for people who play more to get it faster. So all the gold can’t buy them those items. In the end, the people who play more hours tend to get the most use out of such items. They are in essence being punished for having more time to game. So in your communist way of equalising, you’re still being unfair…just to different people.

There are reasons why communism failed, corruption aside, giving everybody the same just doesn’t work. We all know how people were working as slowly as possible because they got their standard reward anyways. I do not believe in systems that just let people sit on their behinds and still reap the same rewards. Call it what you want, but it’s a bad idea in my book to play it this way because it brings out the worst in people and not the best. Going the other extreme has the same problem mind you. A more balanced approach with different options for different playstyles therefore is my suggestion.

Instead of adjusting the speed of gearing to the lowest common denominator, perhaps they should allow different player groups at different speeds. No casual has a right to complain if someone else gets the gear faster as long as he can still get it at a fair speed. If they do complain they’re just entitled children who never grew up. That’s my opinion.

gurugeorge.9857:

But no MMO has ever done that kind of thing. You progress only the character you play, in every MMO.

Depends on what you mean with progression. If it’s gear progression, you’r dead wrong. There are MMOs where you can use your main to get gear for your alts. SWTOR is one of them. It does cost some in game currency, but I can rip the mods from even endgame gear (which is where gear gets their stats) and send those mods to alts, even if they were bound to my character.

In most MMO’s each character can do their own dailies. In this game it’s one daily per account. The dungeon reward change has also made the progress linked to the account rather than the character. That is definitely something that makes it less interesting to run more dungeons on alts. I don’t particularly have a big problem with this change myself since I think it’s too easy as it is to get exotic gear, but if you used to something then it always sucks when it becomes a bit harder to do…or in Anet style takes longer to do.

Jski.6180:

Gehenna.3625:

This is the most alt-unfriendly MMO I ever played…the most important reason that leveling from 1-80 is just dead boring, because every zone is the same except the scenery. Level 50 would’ve been more than plenty.

What other mmorpg have you played that let you level up other hero and gear up other hero when playing a main? You can get exp and level up items that are account bound you can get skill point items that are account bound you can get max level gear from running many events with your “main.” I am not sure if you can even do that in most mmorpgs i guess you could do that say by buying gear for an alt but there a lot of block in how strong that gear is for most mmorpg.

You guys seem to have a huge discontent of what going on in the game and what you can do in GW2 vs what you must do in other mmorpg.

I said leveling was boring not difficult.

As far as gearing up alts, I currently play SWTOR. In that game I can send gear to other alts. Even gear that I’ve used and is bound to my character I can send to my alts by their gear mod system. I can also get gear from operations (raids) and send that to alts at a small cost. That’s not the point though…

As I said, leveling in this game is totally BORING. Nothing changes as you level up except the scenery, especially since the main story is such a small part and I have to skip the conversations not to make my ears bleed from horrible voice acting.

Definitely the jubilee…there’s lots of xp which will partly save you from the boredom of leveling to 80.

This is the most alt-unfriendly MMO I ever played…the most important reason that leveling from 1-80 is just dead boring, because every zone is the same except the scenery. Level 50 would’ve been more than plenty.

I think the OP is totally, completely, irrevocably mad.

There is nothing good about a game element with X choices and only one is used.

toafarmer.8401:

zerk is not the best, it just happens to be the favorite for the e-pen kiddos because it does big dmg.

That’s why it’s best because for 99% of the game you need dps, dodge and ress. Dodge and ress are fixed, the rest is dps.

Vayne.8563:

A fact is a fact. Me saying anyone who’s looked into would know the fact isn’t condescending, in spite of the fact you want to paint me that way. It’s just not true.

Please learn the difference between method and content. It’s not necessarily what you say but the manner. And a fact is only a fact if it is supported by evidence. The assumption that you cannot disagree unless you haven’t looked into it is a ridiculous statement by itself. Research and their conclusions aren’t always as exact and reliable as you want. It’s always based on known variables at the time and needs context. So it’s really always possible that research is wrong in the end. Either by exception or evolution for example. Again you are too black and white in such things and make grand statements without the supporting evidence.

Vayne.8563:

It would be like me saying anyone who looked into fast food restaurants would find out that McDonalds is a big one.

No it wouldn’t.

Vayne.8563:

I have very specific stats from multiple forums over the years, not one or two. Most recently was guildwars2forum.com when it was up. I know EXACTLY how many people looked at pages every day and exactly how many people posted. Not a guess. Real experience.

So you’ve had some experience. Great. Things change, times change and your conclusions might be wrong about them or might not be representative. I doubt you did a proper test run accounting for all kinds of variables.

This is the difference between saying “it’s a fact” and “what I’ve seen in my experience”.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve experienced the same thing in the dozen or so yahoo groups I’ve run over the years. And on other forums.

Nice story. Saying that you have experience and such is still not evidence.

Vayne.8563:

Unless you’re in a business where you literally have to post, the biggest percentage of people on forums will be lurkers. You don’t have to accept this as true, but it doesn’t make it less true.

We don’t know…and that’s the real truth.

Please understand that I am not saying that it isn’t true. I am saying that you present your points as fact without providing evidence. Without evidence I cannot accept it as fact. I just don’t like it when people say something is a fact so casually when in fact there is no proper evidence at hand. Again there is a difference between “it’s a fact” and “what I’ve experienced”.

I think personally that there are quite a few lurkers. Just my feeling, also based on some experience. That makes it my opinion. An opinion can be right and wrong. But how many people are lurkers? Are they always lurkers or also post? How many visits do they make? What do they read and what don’t they read? What’s the percentage of lurkers vs posters? What’s the percentage compared to the total player base? Me, I have no idea. So I wouldn’t call my opinion facts.

You? You present it as facts without actually providing clear evidence. We’ll just have to take your word for it. But I don’t believe you’ve done a proper experiment and test to be able to present your experience as facts at all. So what you call facts I call opinion.

Vayne.8563:

As for forums, very often forum conversations evolve in threads. Yes, I started talking about one aspect of the manifesto and other things were brought up. I suppose we could close this thread and open another thread to continue those conversations, but I’m pretty sure that’s not all that efficient.

Or we could’ve had this discussion in one of the existing threads, but perhaps your ego needed a new one in your name. So far I don’t see anything it hasn’t added anything that couldn’t have been added in the existing thread(s).

Galen Grey.4709:

If players continue this behavior I have a feeling the only lesson learned here will be by Arenanet… Dont do nice things for players, they’re just unable to appreciate the gesture.

The point is that it’s not a nice thing if you make it unfair. Of course people would’ve gone for the gold if they knew beforehand…that’ll tell you how much people cared about the voting.

Ellen Kiel won…whoopteedoo. I could’ve had an extra 5g if I’d known. This game is set up to make people care more about gold than content. That’s what we should learn from this.

Behellagh.1468:

That’s called reading into it. You attributed what you believed to be motivation in a video version of a marketing 4 color glossy.

This is the real essence of the problem with the manifesto. They imply a lot of things and they know that a certain number of people will interpret things a certain way, but they never actually said it.

It’s true that people read things into because that’s what people do. They try to figure out what it means to them. A lot of people had GW1 as a frame of reference and from that point of view it created certain expectations.

My point is that Anet willfully and knowingly did so. This is marketing akittens best. You imply lots of things that you know will trigger people but when they call you on it, they can easily tell you they never actually said it meant something else. Perfect spin and deniability.

Anet never flat out lied. But they were deceptive and to a lot of people that comes down to the same thing.

Of course you could never prove that, so it still remains in the realm of opinion.

Vayne.8563:

We’re still discussing the manifesto, it’s not really breaking any rules I can see. Why so anxious to close this thread? At least some progress was made here (as compared to other threads on the manifesto).

This has nothing to do with rules. You just keep changing your mind about what this thread is about. You said you wanted to clear up a couple of points that were in the blog…then it was about the entire manifesto. Then I said ok then let’s talk about the entire thing…then you basically correct me it isn’t and now it is…..

I am not anxious to close this thread I am just anxious to find what exactly your point is here because you keep jumping from one thing to another. I thought you had a specific point to make….now it’s turned into another discussion about the manifesto.

I told you you created another thread about the same subject.You said it wasn’t. Now it is…

Vayne.8563:

Edit: I actually can say most people or it’s commonly known if those things are true. I’ve been on forums long enough to know certain things are commonly known. You may not agree and that’s fine, but it doesn’t make it less true.

Commonly assumed. Not known. Just because a lot of people have the same idea is not proof.

As Bertrand Russell put it: " If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who disagrees with it hasn’t looked into it.

A phrase like this is arrogant and condescending and a falsehood. Just because you think you’re right, doesn’t mean people can’t come to a different conclusion. Your biggest assumption is that because you think something is true, it must be true for everyone. Having said that, I don’t know how many people lurk on the forums. I think people do, but I don’t KNOW it because I have no actual data to back this up.

Auesis.7301:

gurugeorge.9857:

I also voted against RNG. If the developers had wanted the cooler content developed, they should have put it on the anti-RNG ticket.

No, you didn’t. If you legitimately think your vote against Evon made any difference on the RNG front, you are seriously over-inflating the value of your decision and the impact it will have.

If your voice is small, should you not speak?

Erasculio.2914:

In other words, all those skills have no energy cost, but all of them only show their full potential when they are used at the right moment. The resource management there is not using the skills in the wrong time, so they are available when the time is right to use them.

Which in the end means you use your auto attack 99% of the time…gg Anet.

Drayven.1429:

i for one miss classes such as dervish and monk. i was just wondering from ANet or other fan opinions of seeing old favorites return with expansions such as Janthir or even separate releases of their own.

Even if they did…the classes they already kept like necro and mesmer are NOTHING like the old classes. So who cares if they add yet another class with damage dealing/support capability? It’s not like 8 of the same isn’t enough.

I miss the old classes like the mesmer and necro myself and the ritualist too….except for a couple of the names though none of these classes exist in GW2.

TwoBit.5903:

Gehenna.3625:

Daily page views of the website…3 million views per day. Wait, are they actually using us coming to complain here as a selling point? LMAO

I’m curious as to how this is calculated. I mean, I see the same people post all the time, so it can’t be 3 million views from unique individuals. I think I click at least 10 links per visit. Does it count me clicking the link and leaving the thread as separate hits? Then there’s the fact that I refresh a lot.

Well that’s the thing….we have no idea what these numbers exactly mean. As I like to say: numbers without context mean nothing. This is purely marketing for the Chinese market…no way, should we take these numbers seriously unless we get to see the exact calculations….don’t think that’s gonna happen though

Astral Projections.7320:

• Copies Sold: 3 Million Copies Sold.
• Weekly Active Users: 2.5 Million Active Users per week.
• Rating by Game Authority IGN: 9/10
• Average total hours played per day: 508,428 total hours per day.
• Daily Page Views of Official US GW2 Website: 3 Million Page Views/Day.

3 million copies sold…not bad, could be better, could be worse, but not bad.

weekly active users…2.5 million per week. Wait a second. How is that calculated? Is that 2.5 million unique users or does it count repeat log ins like McD’s X million customers served…? I’ll come back two this with the average hours played.

Rating by IGN…well, that’s still for all to decide themselves.

Average hours played per day. Over half a million. That’s 3.5 million per week…if there are 2.5 million unique players that would mean the average hours played per week per person is 1.4 hours per week. That’s not very encouraging….

Daily page views of the website…3 million views per day. Wait, are they actually using us coming to complain here as a selling point? LMAO

Well done Anet…king of stat twisting. Gotta hand it to you. I wonder if that’s the reason they decided not to post those stats here but only for China.

Vayne.8563:

A smaller world isn’t necessarily a better world. What you end up with in this situation is traffic control. That’s what dailies and the living story do. They get people together at different places at different times. People can still find guilds and go explore together…my guild does that. But random people just population a zone. Maybe at prime time. What about all the people who play off hours. That was never going to happen.

I don’t want to talk in general. That smaller isn’t necessarily better means nothing.

GW2 has loads of leveling zones with people stretched out among them. Compressing that a bit more is better for that especially because GW2 is well suited for that. Why do I say that? Because of the way the game levels you down to the content you are doing.

Also it’s just a dumb idea to spend a lot of time on something people just rush through and forget about. That’s just wasting resources. Of course once people are leveled to 80 there are some hubs where people get together. It would’ve been better they spent more resources on stuff to do at max level than creating zone after zone of similar activities for a leveling process that just takes too long.

If the reality is that while leveling you run into a handful of people only, then that means you have too many leveling zones. It really comes down to the fact that they went overboard with the amount of levels and making xp gain low enough that you need to either repeat things or go to zones of other races to stay on level….that makes their replay value less of those areas as well.

If the had stuck to 50 levels a few less areas and more xp gain per zone, I think this game would’ve leveled a lot smoother and would bore people a lot less. A lot better situation in my view and better for the long term as you have more zones to open for different purposes without having to add more areas outside the existing map.

So nothing is better per definition but I do think I have a few reasons here to think that smaller (and fewer levels) would’ve been better for this game.

It could work if GW2 hired better writers. At the moment I feel the quality of the GW2 story lines is just about right for young teenagers….so is Twilight.

When they patch SWTOR or I get bored with it for a bit, that’s when I play GW2…hope they never have maintenance at the same time …

Vayne.8563:

If your arguments are strong, you shouldn’t need to try to cast aspersions to try to make yourself look right. Doing so actually weakens your argument, rather than strengthening it.

If you have a strong argument, you shouldn’t use comments like “most people” or “everybody knows” either. You also shouldn’t criticise behaviour that you partake in yourself.

I mention that because I’ve seen a particular person do that on more than one occasion.

But hey you managed to get this clarification on the books thanks to one of the posters. Now what? Or is it time to close this thread?

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Anet created a huge world (too big in my opinion to start with) and then brought in events, fotm, living story etc right from the start to make sure people wouldn’t go to those leveling zones anymore.

It’s a funny thing really if you think about it.

I’m not sure any game has really found the secret sauce to this. In most MMOs you have a huge world (not as big as this but still big), where you level to max and you raid. Maybe you level an alt, but eventually the largest part of the player base is hovering in the most recent zone, doing the most recent content, having outleveled everything else.

WoW is clearly the most financially successful MMO of all time with the largest player base, and you still here people complaining about dead middle level zones.

Yep, that doesn’t mean however that the problem doesn’t exist here as well. This is not a comparison between games, but a discussion about what happens in this game, unless you want to make it into a GW2 vs WoW thing.

What I do feel is that Anet have gone out of their way to make a huge world that in my view is too big, already making sure it will spread people out more and then make new content, fleeting or not, that makes sure people even revisit it less.

I remember that Anet was saying they didn’t want to go the same way as they did with GW1 with bringing out new continents because it spread people out too much.

So to remedy that they made a world that is actually bigger than the original Tyria, party because by making a persistent world, effectively decentralising the world. And because they decided on 80 levels, which is way too much for this game, they also made it so people don’t spend much time in each zone to begin with. Then everybody’s just running around doing their hearts etc and it really makes it a persistent world made for solo play. DE’s that I’ve run into the last week or so while leveling were often myself alone or maybe 3-4 people total on occasion.

I am convinced if the game had only 50 levels and fewer areas so people spend a bit more time per zone on average, it would’ve been much better.

I just wonder why they made such a huge world that people spend so little in because all the new stuff is elsewhere.

Sure we didn’t get new continents (although I still believe cantha might yet come one day), but we did get new locations, spreading people out more. I just think it was a mistake to begin with so many levels and areas.

It spreads people out too much and makes leveling boring since it’s the same stuff in each area…just some areas are grassy, snowy etc but the exact same activities.

Vayne.8563:

I can’t tell you how many have contacted me over the months to thank me for being a voice of reason here.

Uh huh…somehow that doesn’t surprise me.

But let me tell you. I don’t find you the voice of reason at all and your posts clearly indicate by your style that you are trying to convince people, because that’s what proving a point is: showing other people you’re right and they’re wrong. But without empirical evidence it’s just a battle of opinions.

Someone else here just said he manifesto shouldn’t be taken literally but seen as their intent. But then you can’t prove intent, it’s just words and beyond that, if you can’t take it literally then what exactly is it they intended? That’s the beauty of it.

Marketing at it’s best. My view is that they failed their intentions, based on my interpretation of it. And since that’s all I can go by that’s a fair opinion to have.

I feel endgame is just grind
I don’t feel heroic
Everything I loved about GW1 is not in GW2

You can’t disprove that because they are how I feel.

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Open world stuff never needed, nor was it supposed to need teamwork. It’s not particularly fair to people who don’t know about stuff. It’s open world. In almost every game I can think of, real team work is reserved for instances.

I don’t know why Guild Wars 2 would be any different…or should be.

That’s a bit of a weak argument. Is that why there are DE’s that are marked “Group events”. Is that why champions and dragons cannot be soloed?

And there are more dungeons than FotM, right?

Oh and every MMO wants to be different, Anet certainly marketed this game as innovate and different, so that’s a non-argument.

Groups don’t imply teamwork. Groups imply multiple people. There’s no reason to assume that five people who show up at an event will even be able to coordinate. The game is made intentionally so that people who don’t want to play with others, but simply play besides them, can.

There are reasons to assume that but you obviously don’t. Thats fair enough. One of the reasons that I would assume that is because of two reasons:

1) GW2 is different because it doesn’t imply teamwork with group events apparently. Because it’s different from pretty much any other MMO I know it’s logical that people who’ve played MMOs before would think some team work is involved.

2) If FotM is the only place that requires team work in PvE, then that’s a bit sad. If that’s the case then obviously team synergy is not something you are taught during the game. If 99% of the game is not about team work, then why think it’s strange that people don’t see this game as a game for team work? Honestly if team work was so important then there should be more team stuff. The other dungeons are also poor examples because team work is not required as long as you dodge and ress each other…that’s as far as it goes. So really FotM is the exception in the game and therefore not the rule….

but remind me what does this have to do with the topic again about feeling heroic?

Vayne.8563:

Open world stuff never needed, nor was it supposed to need teamwork. It’s not particularly fair to people who don’t know about stuff. It’s open world. In almost every game I can think of, real team work is reserved for instances.

I don’t know why Guild Wars 2 would be any different…or should be.

That’s a bit of a weak argument. Is that why there are DE’s that are marked “Group events”. Is that why champions and dragons cannot be soloed?

And there are more dungeons than FotM, right?

Oh and every MMO wants to be different, Anet certainly marketed this game as innovate and different, so that’s a non-argument.

Vayne.8563:

Sure…it doesn’t clarify everything but it is a point I’ve had to repeat a half a dozen times easily, because people either don’t believe it or don’t care.

The other points can be debated separately. Of course the line “everything you love about Guild Wars 1” can’t be taken literally, because Mike O’Brien isn’t a mind reader. Eveything WHO loves about Guild Wars 1.

And that’s the only line of the manifesto video that’s really questionable.

Those who question the grind comment, and try to point to a single word (down from a single line) in another document have a whole lot less proof to go on than I do. So much so that it’s almost silly, and everyone sees it but them.

Well that point is considered clarified to me. I do not share your view on what’s questionable in that video because to me pretty much all of it is (which is normal in marketing, it’s not special in that sense), but here’s a thought for you to consider:

People mostly don’t care about proof. When people feel a certain way it’s because of what they experience and you can never disprove that. Even if you could prove that Anet’s intentions were good and it was an honest misunderstanding, it still doesn’t change most people’s feelings, because feelings don’t care about proof.

Trying to prove that people are wrong only angers them more and only makes people entrench, it doesn’t resolve anything nor bring people closer together.

If someone is angry and you want to convince them of something, you won’t until you can first get emotions out of the way and that means taking an interesting in their feelings. Showing empathy (remember understanding someone doesn’t equate to agreeing) and finding out why they feel that way. People don’t do that in forums, that’s why nothing ever gets resolved on a game forum.

I’ll give a simplified example:

Critic: This game is crap and it’s totally grindy!!! Anet are horrible!!
Defender: You are wrong because this game isn’t grindy at all, you are just lazy.

So, you think this will help?

So what about this:

Critic: This game is crap and it’s totally grindy!!! Anet are horrible!!
Defender: Sorry to hear that you hate this game. So, what exactly makes you feel this game is grindy?

Now, most people aren’t interested in the other person’s feelings or reasons, they just want to fight an be right. I call it forum pvp and I am not here to tell people how to act. But if you want to diffuse discussions and actually bring people together closer, my view is that the second example is more constructive than the first.

Anet created a huge world (too big in my opinion to start with) and then brought in events, fotm, living story etc right from the start to make sure people wouldn’t go to those leveling zones anymore.

It’s a funny thing really if you think about it.

Mind you this is not just a GW2 issue. Most MMOs I’ve played reward story line missions in poor way. In SWTOR for example this is also the case. Of course the story telling is much better there and you do get many other ways to get gear with tokens along the way, but still the quest rewards are meh.

Part of the issue for me is that it is easy enough to get better leveling gear than the rewards provide. In GW2 you can get green gear as of level 14 and you upgrade it every 6 levels. It’s not that expensive at all on the TP. I just keep my trinkets on blues as I level along. Don’t need better quality till level 80 really. And when I get to level 50 or so I get yellow gear instead of greens and upgrade that about every 10 levels.

So if you work out that that will keep you geared just fine till level 80, you can level relatively easily for not too much gold along the way. Then at 80 you should have enough karma and gold to get exotic gear instantly.

So, with that ease of gearing. I am just not sure why the story lines do not reward better things. It’s sub par. I would say gear skins would even be better. That way you can collect a special gear set together. You know all armour items and all possible weapons. Perhaps you could even give it a small set bonus or effect that makes it even cooler. It doesn’t have to be much, but it would make people feel like they achieved something cool, especially since the end of the story is so anti-climactic.

You know how much it would make a difference if my mesmer could collect this together by completing the story line?

http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news2/ArenaNet-Details-Quirky-Mesmer-Class-for-Guild-Wars-2-2.jpg

Vayne.8563:

Assyrian.4827:

Esplen.3940:

Assyrian.4827:

Vayne.8563:

Kurakura.7281:

In GW2 you are a nobody. You DO NOT matter!

Speak for yourself. You may be nobody and not matter. Me…I matter. Just depends on your perspective.

He is right Vayne because in GW2 we are all DPS no team work required.

Really? Perhaps you haven’t tried Fractals, then.

You are right I don’t play fotm because I don’t like vertical progression.

So you ignore the hardest content in the game and them make claims about teamwork. Plenty of teamwork in WvW and TPvP, and in PvE there’s still plenty of team work in my guild.

Maybe because everyone doesn’t roll an lul easy-mode warrior and we actually play professions we enjoy playing that incidentally make the game more challenging.

You should be able to agree that if team work only matters in FotM, that it is not representative of the whole game. Are you actually advocating that people must play every part of the game?

FotM is the ultimate treadmill for the sake of treadmilling. The game has a lot of different elements to it. Story missions, DE’s, hearts, dungeons, WvW, sPvP and so on….

oh but wait this is not really on topic anyway is it?

Some people don’t feel like a hero in this game, because of the story line mostly I’d say. Someone here said you don’t need to be the president but the point is not so much who’s got the biggest title but who is the story about. And anyone who denies that the later part of the story is not centered around Trahearne’s character and how he and his team saves the world has not payed attention.

Look at it like, I dunno, I remember that series Xena: The Warrior Princess. Well her sidekick would be Gabrielle, if I remember right. I think that people expected to play the role of Xena, but ended feeling they got the Gabrielle part. I can understand that feeling because I share it.

I remember going to speak to this tree and going to the gates of Arah….a big battle ensued. The problem with this big battles is what I demonstrated earlier. It’s not me who wins this battle, it’s a group of npc’s and I just happen to be there as well. Part of it is the story and part of it is the programming. If I die, well I just respawn and let the npcs do the work. The battle is NOT lost without me in that sense. That really just doesn’t feel epic or heroic to me.

Vayne.8563:

Okay, but the posted clarification actually does say what they said. It says clearly what I’ve said on thread after thread.

Ree is talking about the personal story and Colin is talking about dynamic events. Bottom line, I’ve said it time and time again and people have called me on it again and again. It’s one less thing to discuss when the manifesto is discussed.

And since the actual clarification has been posted now, hopefully some of the people repeating that you kill a boss and it respawns ten minutes later is a lie, will change their tune.

Yep I saw it too. So it talks about two points of the manifesto, not the whole manifesto by the way. Two points in fact that are not the things people generally are upset about though.

It doesn’t clarify the “we don’t want people to grind” issue
It doesn’t clarify the “we took everything you liked from GW1” issue
It doesn’t clarify the “we want people to feel heroic” issue

So yeh they made a clarification about two smaller points but not the ones that really matter to the more heated discussion about the manifesto. So my guess is this won’t really change much about the discussions even when people see this clarification and take on faith that Anet didn’t do a 180 but actually were being honest in their clarification.

Vayne.8563:

It’s quite obvious that someone in that thread mentioned directly that Ree was talking about the boss you just killed comes back ten minutes later in the PERSONAL story. There was another link with in interview about it in this very thread, from a dev.

If someone said that, and it wasn’t true, someone would have jumped down their throat. It didn’t happen, so logically it’s likely true.

Any other conclusion would be a biased one, because the logic is relatively simple.

Obvious is not proof. But if you actually had reading skills you would’ve known that I conceded that particular point. See, you are just going in circles. We discussed that point but then said yourself it was about the whole manifesto and not this small part. So now I discuss the whole thing and you bring it back to this one small point again. Circular reasoning….not helpful.

Also logic is not the same as truth. Someone can be logical about something and still be wrong. Logic is wholly dependent on the information you have. Since we normally don’t have all the information, we cannot assume then that using logic equates to speaking the truth.

Logic also doesn’t exclude bias. Because if two people who had the same bias were discussing they would find each other’s reasoning logical.

Logic just means you follow certain set of rules or a system in your reasoning. Doesn’t mean the rules or the system are right. So please stop confusing logic with truth.

Really, without empirical evidence there is nothing to prove. And the underlying problem is that Anet could’ve lied and made the clarification just as a means to soothe everyone. Your assumption is that it was an explanation of what they originaly intended, but that is also taken on faith. It’s not evidence even if we had the clarification.

You could be right, but you could be wrong.

So learn this: You cannot prove what they meant or intended, you can only prove what they said, not why. You are not in their heads. So you are trying to prove something that you cannot prove: intent. This is why this manifesto discussion will never end, because no matter how much you think you’re right, you can’t prove it and neither can anyone else, whether they are for or against.

So you can give your opinion. That’s fair. But to think you can prove anything is delusion.

emikochan.8504:

QFE , the loot in gw2 is way better than every other game, just look at what you are actually getting.

When I played wow it took months to get geared – sometimes longer, look at headmaster’s charge, the only survival staff pre raiding 1/200 dropchance..

and there was no crafting option, no trading post. It was dungeons for BoP gear or nothing.

In gw2 you can work towards the best gear without rng. The skins are optional.

You are incorrect. There are many other games with better loot systems. Just because you played wow a long time ago, doesn’t mean you have a clue about other games. Besides as far as I know there is an Auction House in WoW.

Also lots of games have crafting.

In GW2 you cannot get the best gear without rng. The skins are actually more the point here and the only stats improvement is ascended gear and that is not loot…that just means logging in 30-40 mins a day doing stuff that any idiot can do. That’s not rewarding effort but rewarding attendance.

I think GW2 is ideal for people who are lazy, dumb and entitled. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying everybody playing the game is like that but if you are lazy, dumb and entitled, this game caters to you.

Galen Grey.4709:

How is that equal?

Oh you’re a communist then?

People are not the same, they don’t game the same but they should all get the same, in the same way? That’s just Anet making it easy for themselves.

Vayne.8563:%

Really? LMAO.

Okay so if someone said the clarification said X and it didn’t, you wouldn’t find someone disagreeing with it in a thread? REALLY? I see.

You would find someone disagreeing. I don’t know why you bring this up since I didn’t say that.

Vayne.8563:%

Actually this thread is about the clarification, not the manifesto itself. And if some people don’t want to read about it, they’re free not to be in this thread. It’s not like they have to come here.

But some people might be interested in that clarification and if the original isn’t around, I provided the next best thing.

What a load of crap. Either there is a clarifcation or there isn’t. The next best thing has to be taken on faith as it’s people replying with their interpretations in mind. Nothing more. The clarification is missing but the subject is still the manifesto. I wouldn’t see a missing clarification as a real topic. Nonetheless, you are the one who is naive enough to think this topic will make an actual difference. I tell you it only adds more oil to the fire and therefore is counterproductive to your own goals.

Vayne.8563:%

It seems that if someone wants to say bad things about the manifesto, 800 threads can be made, but the second someone wants to point out something different about the manifesto, well that’s just a duplicate thread, right?

Incorrect. I am also against people making 20 threads about the same subject, but it happens. I don’t have the power to stop it. The mods do. All I am pointing out is that your behaviour is the same. You have a different opinion on the matter, but for the rest you are just like them. I don’t see how you can justify that just because you think you are on the right side of the matter, that it’s ok to have the same behaviour. That’s why I speak of double standards. If you think they shouldn’t do it, then neither should you or just shut up and deal with it.

Vayne.8563:%

Biased much?

About what and why? Is it because I have a different opinion than you do that I am biased…because if that’s the reason, you’re the one that’s actually biased.

Namica.2951:

They’ve so far added a few rather large scale events with smaller ones peppered all about. They can’t do a Flame and Frost or a Secret of Southsun constantly. It requires a lot more work than putting in a few minigames and a few quality of life changes. Can you name any other MMO that has updated this frequently? What would you consider “actual content”? Are Fractals not actual content? Guild Missions? The various PvP additions? New armors and weapons aren’t content?

Mini games and events yes…that’s what I call snacks, little in betweens. Nice but not solid content. FotM is just a mix between tetris and a dungeon. It’s the ultimate treadmill experience. Doing the same group of fractals in different combinations over and over again? No that goes under stupid and grind in my book. But hey, if you like it, good for you.

New armour skins can be nice (still haven’t seen any really good ones) but it’s not content unless there are new activities to acquire them.

Guild missions I don’t know but from what I understand that content is not for solo players or smaller guilds. So it’s gated content. Not sure if there’s a lot to it.

But guess what? The game still feels like there’s not much to do at level 80 for a good amount of people it seems. So whatever they’re adding, it’s not adding up to much.

Namica.2951:

Of course you’re going to get bored doing the same zones multiple times. It’s a video game, it can’t have an infinite amount of content. Did you play through prophecies multiple times without getting bored? Because it was far more streamlined and lacking in variety than the GW2 leveling experience.

Nothing of course. In other games I gladly leveled multiple characters before getting a sense of boredom. Here I get that sense of boredom around level 40-50 on my first character. That is not very good.

Namica.2951:

And you can tell the difference between differing people in GW2 as well. Or are you saying that, for example, a Hammer Warrior is the same as a Long Sword Warrior?

There is a difference between the two but not one that really matters for most content in GW2. There are exceptions I’m sure but when you level through this game it makes no difference which weapons you use. You’ll get the job done just the same. What is more of an issue to me is the freedom GW1 had in the skill bar that GW2 simply doesn’t have.

Namica.2951:

When did the story in GW1 ever change based on player choices?

Never said it did, but GW2 pretends to, so it sets the expectation. GW1 never set that expectation so it doesn’t matter there. But I’ll tell you one thing that did change the outcome of your actions in GW1 : the choice of your skills and gear.

GW2 is just way too forgiving to the point that it makes everything a bit pointless.

I’ve seen some of the things they replied to it. So I will say that at least on some topics they did answer. However, answering is not enough, because the answers were mostly cop outs.

But I guess you decided there weren’t enough threads on the manifesto so you had to create your own. I guess your forum name sounds about right.

So, the original blog is missing. The only thing there are replies that could be misinterpretations, so without the original blog it still means nothing (except the boss thingy that was quoted I suppose).

Now, the manifestor was a great marketing stunt and they said things that were not the actual experience I had in game and judging by the reactions that still come, it will always be a matter of opinion and not proof.

And again, the manifesto is 3 years old, you are absolutely right. But then you complain about people bringing it up over and over again…well guess what, with this thread you did it again.

Do you get that this will never be resolved? Do you get that by bringing it up yet again, the only thing you have achieved is to awaken the same old discussion again?

I told you this in another thread but your methods don’t match your goals. If you wanted to prove a point and thereby convinced everybody that Anet didn’t lie, then you are very naive. All it will do is bringing another thread full of negativity in the top of the forum that you want to have less negativity in.

Well done.