Guild Wars 2

Mirta.5029:

Except that this is a game and not a job. It’s something people do on their free time. I’ve done some quite challenging stuff in my life and never had an easy one. I have however played over 200 games. I know the limits of my skill. I know the problems that my brain has with 3D objects, my delay when I’m trying to react and my faulty eyes. I know that some of them were probably caused by 12 hour surgeries and being under anesthesia for so long, but just like you I like to relax and have fun in my free time, so no, want challenging? Play Dark Souls or something, don’t take entertainment away from all of us though.

I never said it was a job. Strange comment on your side.

Also, why should you get what you want and another person not? And who do you think you are referring to “all of us”.

All I am saying is that this game lacks challenge and needs more of it. Nowhere did I say the entire game has to be difficult.

The problem is that there’s too much that’s easy. There’s more easy stuff than anyone needs to level up. Also when something is tricky it’s done in such a way that it’s not really fun either.

But where did you get the idea that you get to decide what this game should be? It’s a bit selfish to think other people’s opinions are a threat to you and rather arrogant to think you represent “all of us”.

Don’t do that, just speak for yourself. That I will believe. I really just don’t get why people would feel so threatened just because other people want something else. You tell me to try another game that is indeed tough as nails. Do I ask for that level of difficulty? No I don’t and certainly not for the entire game.

Looks like you were more concerned with what you fear I am saying than what I actually said. There’s a lot of ground between dead easy and tough as nails….you make it sound like it can be only one of those two. Seriously, Anet will never make this game that hard, but I am saying that because 99% of this game is easy mode stuff, it will not have a long lasting appeal for certain types of gamers and I am not sure if that’s a wise approach since MMOs tend to want to cater to various groups in order to maintain a large enough player base.

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Right, that’s what I’m saying…because that’s what Anet has said.

And I’m saying that when Anet says something it’s not written in stone, because they can just as easily make a 180 and say well, we didn’t actually say never and circumstances are different now blah blah blah.

Personally I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next two years we suddenly see an expansion bringing Cantha, simply because they said it’s unlikely to happen.

I’m not saying they’re not going to bring Cantha in. I fully expect Cantha and Elona. I’m saying it’ll be an expansion, not a full game like they did with the first Guild Wars.

The reason they gave for saying it makes as much sense now as it did back then. When and if they come out with an expansion, it will be a true expansion, not a stand alone product.

Ahh yeah, that I doubt as well. The stand alone thing was a way to get people to buy the new part without having to buy the original. Still, I do think that if they bring out Cantha or something, they will probably give some deal to include the original game. People generally don’t wanna spend 100 bucks to start a game.

Evon Skyfyre.9673:

The thought occurs, could budget be the reason for no expansion? The real world economy is still not doing good, even Blizzard is going back to the drawing board for their mmo Titan. ESO will have a sub and mt’s. Guess they aren’t sure what is going to work.

If they do an expansion they must write it, hire voice talent, etc.. if the people I have talked to are like most, hardly any of them have spent any real money in game. They play for free and that is why they are here. I have a feeling that is how most players view the game. The players that gush over the game and say how wonderful it is might not feel the same is Anet dropped MT’s and added a monthly subscription (don’t start foaming at the mouth they won’t add one).

Upon further reflection they, (Anet) seem to be the most excited about the way the game is headed. Seems in game and here, most are worried and losing interest. I have said it before, Anet, make the game we want to play, not the game you want to play. Unless pesky things like profit and ROI are not important.

I think that could be a reason. That’s why I don’t expect any expansions before the China release. If China does well, they’ll rake in a bunch of cash. That might give them options they can’t consider right now.

My guess is that if China does well and the Chinese start crying for an expansion, there will be one.

Mirta.5029:

It’s a casual MMO. Find a hardcore one if you want, but I prefer people actually able to do the content.

You’d be surprised what people can actually achieve if they were just challenged. Just because we are living in a lazy, entitled society, doesn’t meant we can’t actually do better.

I have more faith in the ability of mankind than that. Sadly there’s a ton of unused potential. Anet is not the government, nor the education system, so they just cater to what people think they want. If people want easy, they’ll provide it. That’s business.

Vayne.8563:

Right, that’s what I’m saying…because that’s what Anet has said.

And I’m saying that when Anet says something it’s not written in stone, because they can just as easily make a 180 and say well, we didn’t actually say never and circumstances are different now blah blah blah.

Personally I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next two years we suddenly see an expansion bringing Cantha, simply because they said it’s unlikely to happen.

I agree that the open world is lacking. It’s not just easy but it’s very repetitive. Same stuff in each zone and too many zones. Personally I think the biggest mistake they made is decide on 80 levels. After level 40-50 the levels are just there for the sake of levels, it doesn’t unlock anything anymore beyond the usual trait points and it cause the leveling process to be spread out over too many zones.

This makes them repetitious because even though the zones look different it’s the same stuff in each zone.

Oddly, the philosophy they used for their leveling curve actually works against hem here. The lower levels progress slower than I’d like and the higher levels it doesn’t help because the levels become meaningless.

If lower levels went a bit faster and the higher ones became more meaningful than just a trait point, it could already do a lot for leveling in this game.

I reckon that if people would spend more time in a leveling zone, because of a bigger range of 15-20 levels each that would also help population per zone and because you don’t need to go to zones of other races to get more xp, the replay value of other zones becomes higher as well.

The entire Orr zone can be max level then too. I am just saying that the way they did the leveling zones actually works against the excitement of the leveling process where you feel your character growing more powerful etc.

In GW1 there were only 20 levels and a seasoned player could make a new character and level it to max level in 4 hours and then the 3 continents were at your feet to discover. Though in the original installment, leveling to 20 was still more of a feat as you leveled along the story line.

Point is, leveling there wasn’t a big deal. Most of the content was for max level and I mean like 80% of the game’s content or more was endgame. In GW2 they wanted to give people a leveling experience but keep the idea of making the world endgame. I think meshing those two didn’t work out so well.

Leveling is boring as it doesn’t feel useful anymore really after you unlock your elite skill slot…which is what? level 30-35 somewhere. So really level 40, maybe 50 would’ve been more than enough as end level and then the repetition of the zones just really makes it a chore.

So yeh, as far as leveling toons, this game doesn’t really do it for me.

Zacchary.6183:

I definitely am. Although the Evon supporters are still sour because they didn’t get their fractal.

Well, I reckon that either the election was fixed or they will still get their fractal. I somehow doubt they actually prepared two different things and just threw one away, so either they never made the fractal or it will still come out, just a bit later.

DE’s are mostly handy for leveling really. Nothing like seeing 3 events pop, run around and kill 2 things in each area and get rewarded for all 3 of them.

Sometimes I am on my way somewhere and pass through an area with an event. Well I just kill something and carry on. Then at some point later suddenly the event ends end I get rewarded for it.

There is no need to stick around for the full event. Just run around do a small bit in each one and reap in the rewards. Sure, you don’t get gold but maybe silver or bronze but for the minimal effort put in, it’s a brilliant reward.

Cause let’s be honest, some do affect the area but you don’t stay there long enough to really care about the effects and it’s always escort this, defend that, kill a champion type events. There may be more than 1500 of them but most of them are copies of others.

I think if the game had fewer areas where you stayed longer to level and events had a bit more longer lasting effects it’d probably be more interesting to really be involved.

Well maybe you should complain to Anet about giving players a choice. Of course, since Ellen Kiel won by a landslide, my guess is that you would be in the minority here.

Vayne.8563:

Regardless of what you call it, my point was Anet won’t be doing that, because they don’t want to divide the player base. It’s not going to happen. What they will release is expansions more along the lines of Eye of the North, so that’s what you’d have to compare the new expansions to, not full games.

We can argue about the word, but the word isn’t really what I’m talking about. I’m talking about Anet making a statement to excludes that type of expansion (if you still want to use the word) from consideration.

I disagree with that. Anet have said that it’s unlikely, but I am sure they are keeping their options open. Unlikely doesn’t mean never ever no way. It means they will try other things first.

It seems obvious by now that Anet are not the kind of people that set things in stone.

As far as dividing the population, that has already happened as it is. The world is too big for it not to happen and it doesn’t really matter if it’s another continent that’s added or if there are more areas added to the map as they have been doing.

My guess is that this is one of the reasons they tried fleeting content. Because you bring it in and take it out and the world is still the same size. There are plenty of threads about the downside of this approach and Anet is already changing their approach.

I am willing to go as far as to say that if at some point the game would lose too many players and a main concern would be the lack of actual expansions they would make one. They prefer not too, that much is clear, but Anet never says never.

Xae Isareth.1364:

For great derail.

I kinda had an implied assumption of ‘about the the game’ at the end of the title.

yeh sorry about my part in he derail. should’ve stuck to my original comment

Araziel.7201:

I think a lot of them look really nice. I don’t even know what to say about people who think the ones from GW1 are better. I laughed when I looked at them in comparison. They looked like Everquest or Morrowind weapons. I remember when I thought my ranger epics were awesome in EQ. I guess maybe nostalgia or something.

It’s a matter of design vs graphics I’d say. GW2 graphics are definitely better, but design wise GW1 still owns. I never cared much for zodiac weapons in GW1 either, but man, there were cool designs for weapons and armour there. You always ended up liking multiple ones and wanting to collect them. I just haven’t had that same pull here.

ozmaniandevil.6805:

My point is, look at this game from the perspective of someone with NO gaming experience, and then cut those people some slack. I have learned not to look in-game for real help in GW2, but as a newbie I had no idea about the 3rd party websites, as I’m sure most newbies don’t.

You have a point here. I’ve played MMOs before and still do but I quit this game after about two months and came back a few weeks ago to give it another go. It was still rather confusing what was all going on with this living story stuff and new zones etc. So I imagine that’s what it’s like as a new player to online gaming. I would think there is a lot going on and nothing to really guide you through it.

I understand that more seasoned players don’t want tutorials but other games have tutorials that can be turned off easily, so that shouldn’t be a problem. The wiki page for GW1 also took some time to build up but it seems to me that it was much more complete than the current one when it was out 1 year.

I think in general though that sadly there are less people who want to take the time.

There is a site called dulfy.net and she covers various games. I tend to like her approach a lot better. It’s a good source of information really.

Zenith.6403:

Why do you people always complain that this game is not hard? Why are you so invested in this? Why not go play some hard game that actually challenges you intellectually, like chess?

Chess doesn’t challenge you intellectually, the opponent may. Also chess is more 1 vs 1 and not so much group content.

MMOs are expected to appeal to different player groups because they attract people with various playstyles. If they don’t balance that right, there will be disappointed people.

Considering that this is the GW2 forum, it also makes sense to speak about this game here. I do like a game of chess, but it’s not the same. Lucky for me there are other MMOs that I do like and do offer challenges, but if you do like the setting of this game it is a shame if you have to find that challenge somewhere else. GW2 could offer more of it, there really isn’t that much of it here.

Skins are always a matter of taste. I guess what’s baffled me is that I really liked a lot of the armour and weapon designs in GW1 and that in GW2 they are so disappointing.

In GW1 they weren’t all great either, but there seemed to be more winners on the whole. Not sure if it’s a different design team by now. The graphics as such are better in this game but the design….well, still a matter of taste.

Oxstar.7643:

Yawn, another thread about them useless skins.

Well, that’s what this game is all about in the end…might as well say “yawn another thread about GW2” ….waaaaait, I see what you did there.

Oxstar.7643:

Gehenna.3625:

Oxstar.7643:

I spotted a fallacy in the american consitution. Here it is.
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union” – Wait a flipping second. MORE PERFECT? That’s impossible! “Perfect” is as good as it can possibly get, and even THAT is impossible in itself.
Well, at leats you were confident, I’ll give you that, but you’re really in over your head.
What is my theory then? Americans aim too high.

Nah man, you just have to give 110% and it will work out.

Point being, you can’t reach “more perfect” , it’s a fallacy, “perfect” means that it couldn’t be better in any possible way. And a lot of things could be better for you people =P

Now I am disappointed. First of all I am not American.

Secondly my comment about 110% was a joke that supported what you said as it is impossible just the same to give 110% since 100% is all you have…I would’ve thought you would’ve caught that joke….oh well, I won’t ask where you’re from.

Knote.2904:

Um, no they’re not, they’re just skins.

Because they never a weapon tier beyond exotic.

They are skins now but that is going to change. Being able to switch stats on them is one thing and when more ascended gear comes out (we only have trinkets now) they already said they would match ascended weapon stats.

But just that ability to switch stats on them makes them more than just a skin.

Still, they should’ve never been able to be sold or traded. Funny enough if GW2 is in the end a game of skins, then this definitely qualifies as pay to win

Oxstar.7643:

I spotted a fallacy in the american consitution. Here it is.
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union” – Wait a flipping second. MORE PERFECT? That’s impossible! “Perfect” is as good as it can possibly get, and even THAT is impossible in itself.
Well, at leats you were confident, I’ll give you that, but you’re really in over your head.
What is my theory then? Americans aim too high.

Nah man, you just have to give 110% and it will work out.

I think the game is not complex at all, but especially for a new player the game is not very transparent at all.

It’s not very clear what’s going on in the game. It’s hard to tell sometimes what’s permanent content, what’s fleeting and the lack of tutorials can make this game rather a bit foggy.

If you’ve played other games before it’s not so difficult, then you are just confronted with the reality that everything you do discover doesn’t actually make a lot of sense…perhaps ignorance is bliss here.

I think all the characters in GW2 are made up….sssshhhhht, don’t tell anyone.

notebene.3190:

I’m not understanding the part where a game is about obligation and responsibility?

I suppose a game like, I don’t know, football, where it’s a profession, and you are being paid, and there’s a lot of business and money and all that on the table, technically that’s a ‘game’, but really it’s a business.

If I sit down to play Settlers of Catan, obligations and responsibilities don’t drive me to play it? Hanging out with friends and family and doing something fun drive me to play it.

But what if there’s an expansion for Settlers of Catan that can only ever be played next week?

Would it not bother you that you could never play that expansion if you had other plans that week? That’s why people feel obliged. Even They have to play at that time or miss out. That’s a shame really.

ColinJohanson.2394:

I just want to remind folks again, the features and content you’d traditionally find in an expansion will absolutely be added to Gw2. The thing we haven’t decided is what form the release of that content would be presented in, be it a traditional expansion, living world, or some other form.

Well, so there will be new classes after all…cause, you know that’s something you traditionally find in expansions…

Anet wants to break you. They make sure that people can’t collect everything. The moment you give up on being a completionist the game is much better I understand.

Klawlyt.6507:

Wait, did I need to do something other than zerg around the map for 45 minutes(x5)?

Nope, keep doing what you’re doing.

CMF.5461:

I think we are saying the same things with different words gehenna.

by less content I mean more time to do current content and delay the new content “or” give us a filler content that is carefree to put a buffer between two really active content updates.

I like the new stuff, I like the variety. I am enjoying the game a lot…I just need some room to breath….It’s not you….it’s me…..

Well, I feel the same actually about this content that comes and goes. It does put pressure on people who like to complete things or simply just want to partake in all content possible. This approach makes that very difficult.

You could blame yourself but I think Anet has some responsibility. Perhaps they didn’t see this coming but here it is. There are people who need to take and choose their time. This doesn’t allow that and I think that’s a shame.

I just wanted to make sure I understood you correctly

It would be sad if indeed people are being kicked so sell spots, but the evidence there is a bit lacking. I would think if people solo’d it, then they might sell spots cause they can, but who knows, there’s no limit to how low people will stoop.

What I do find interesting is that people here are actually saying that Arah can be solo’d for the most part.

I suppose that actual group play took another hit in this game while I wasn’t watching.

The question I have, is it really too much content or is it that you only have a week or two to complete it so you feel forced to get on with it when Anet wants it and not when you want it?

I would agree that if you really like a game there’s no such thing as too much content, but you do want to be able to move at your own pace and when you want it. Perhaps that’s the real issue that makes you feel that it’s overwhelming because the content that is added is mostly fleeting. Interestingly though the holes in your achievement list will stay….

Some people don’t care about getting all achievements, some do but I feel this is not the best approach for a MMO.

VOLKON.1290:

Gehenna.3625:

VOLKON.1290:

xephire.8324:

Viking Jorun.5413:

I don’t think you can claim that GW2 isn’t innovative, as now we’re starting into the “GW2 Clones” phase with many aspects of ESO and EQNext copying directly from GW2’s design philosophies. Many MMOs have already started employing dynamic events and even call them that, and they’re nothing more than what GW2 already has. You can’t really go back on that.

You can’t really claim ESO or EQNext are directly copying the games as of yet.Both of the games havent even been released.

A technicality. Valid, of course, but still a technicality when you consider ideas presented for those games. Although the fact that they seem to be drifting to a sub-fee based payment model is rather odd in this day and age. At least… Wildstar and one of those two has already declared they’re going sub-fee.

Wild Star isn’t sub free actually. It has a sub, but as an alternative, you can use your first month’s sub that you get with the box to start earning your way through. So you exchange ingame cash for credds and with that you pay your sub.

Interesting is that this game is also from NcSoft and they haven’t copied the GW2 model. Just something to think about.

The discussion is still open on subs really. I think subs are still important to MMOs but perhaps a number of current MMOs didn’t live up to the expectations causing people not to want to pay a sub anymore. Still, most of those games still have sub options in it.

Not sub-free, sub-fee. I think I should have chosen a better term. I apologize for that.

Ah I misread that obviously. My mistake. But yeh, I think companies still try subs because if they get it right it’s the best situation for them as well.

VOLKON.1290:

xephire.8324:

Viking Jorun.5413:

I don’t think you can claim that GW2 isn’t innovative, as now we’re starting into the “GW2 Clones” phase with many aspects of ESO and EQNext copying directly from GW2’s design philosophies. Many MMOs have already started employing dynamic events and even call them that, and they’re nothing more than what GW2 already has. You can’t really go back on that.

You can’t really claim ESO or EQNext are directly copying the games as of yet.Both of the games havent even been released.

A technicality. Valid, of course, but still a technicality when you consider ideas presented for those games. Although the fact that they seem to be drifting to a sub-fee based payment model is rather odd in this day and age. At least… Wildstar and one of those two has already declared they’re going sub-fee.

Wild Star isn’t sub free actually. It has a sub, but as an alternative, you can use your first month’s sub that you get with the box to start earning your way through. So you exchange ingame cash for credds and with that you pay your sub.

Interesting is that this game is also from NcSoft and they haven’t copied the GW2 model. Just something to think about.

The discussion is still open on subs really. I think subs are still important to MMOs but perhaps a number of current MMOs didn’t live up to the expectations causing people not to want to pay a sub anymore. Still, most of those games still have sub options in it.

I think it’s hard to be completely original. That wouldn’t be a realistic expectation. I sometimes wonder if it’s the game reviewers that brought innovation to the table as a concept rather than the players.

I don’t really care so much if a game is innovative as such, it’s not a positive thing per definition. An MMO has a lot of players generally that come from different backgrounds. I think the key is that you can make a game fun and rewarding for different playstyles for the long term.

I think that’s a big challenge. I am sure Anet worked really hard and I can understand that they feel proud about what they did. Of course as players we just care about how it works for ourselves in the first place. We paid for this game in the end.

So yeh, there has been some innovation here but also some things that are lacking that might be linked to some of these innovations. Some of it will be linked to budgets.

I am interested for example to see what the new FF will do as MMO with a sub. If they can be successful with a sub that would really raise some interesting questions. And part of that will be whether it’s innovation or other things that make it work. It could also fail like the last one did, but time will tell.

GW2 has been out for a year now and that’s one of those moments were people can sit back and look at the past year. I do wonder if more innovation is really possible when a game is up and running. Not sure how difficult that might be for the programmers.

Gizmo.8623:

For me it was not innovative. But it had this something to keep me for 1k hours. I haven’t played that long in anything from Diablo 2 premiere.

Now it seems the magic is abandoned because someone decided that the first priority should be spitting updates as quickly as humanly possible that took the game in different direction.

Any idea what this something or the magic actually was for you? That would be an interesting point to define. What made it magic for you so far?

Gizmo.8623:

Would GW2 (or GW1) be so popular if it was packed only with the quality of content we received starting from january this year? I doubt it.

So wait, let me get this straight. Are you saying that if they had offered more quality content the game would be less popular?

If so that’s an interesting point. As much as I might not like that idea, it might have merit.

marnick.4305:

Not necessarily. Take the Lion King. It is a “childish” film with upbeat and happy themes. Kids love that stuff. At the same time, to an adult, there’s a very clear World War 2 backdrop and the implications of the hippy lifestyle. That’s not a joke but the actual strength of what makes Disney such a successful company.

You take things too black and white here. I talk about the balance between the two and for me the balance is off. As I also said childish isn’t bad per definition. You act like it is. The Lion King still has childish things in it. The fact that there is a more mature message in the movie doesn’t change that. But with the Lion King I expected there to be stuff for kids and also in the amount thereof. When I heard about the background setting for GW2, I expected darker and it’s just party this, sparkle that. I stay away from the events as much as possible. That helps…oh and skipping all the convo’s also helps.

Now I don’t need LA to be dark and dreary, but Orr still lacks. There at least I expected. It’s well crafted mind you, but the tone is off. I don’t feel I am getting near the big evil boss as much as I am annoyed by risen…it’s annoyance not threat.

marnick.4305:

In the same vein, we can’t always be slaying dragons and that’s exactly what makes the Dragon Festival what it is. A well deserved break after saving the world before doing it again. That means something. While the Queen’s Jubilee is equally festive, it does show the kind of world we live in a rather direct and bloody spectacle. It takes a form of maturity to see that.

I do get that, but as I said, the balance is off for me. There are a number of elements that add up to too much. There was also frivolity and fun stuff in GW1. There the balance was much better.

marnick.4305:

Just as a matter of perspective. The darker a story is, the less mature it usually is. Bruce Willis in Die Hard 4.0 blows down a helicopter with a car for christ’s sake, merely because he was out of bullets. His side kick cries like a baby to a car to start it. That’s as childish as it gets and yet Die Hard is a mature movie and Harry Potter isn’t.

You obviously do not understand the concept of darkness if you quote an example from Die Hard. And yes action movies also have a lot of childish things in it. I perfectly agree with that…even to the point that I can be annoyed with it if it’s too much, or laugh when it’s actually funny to me.

But it’s not a black and white thing about it being a 100% childish or 0% I dare say in life everything is a mix. Where the balance lies makes it work for some and not for others.

I don’t know if that’s a fair assessment entirely.

What made and makes GW2 innovative is that there are no real roles and the fact that you don’t need to team up for group activities but can just jump in. They also repackaged standard MMO activities (kill x mobs, collect x items, defend this area or npc) so that it’s delivered to you differently than the standard quest format. It allows you also different activities to complete hearts and dailies.

I don’t think that’s changed.

Now the living story stuff is a bit of a funny one there and I can’t really comment aboutt that.

As far as raids, yes they’re coming. That’s already been confirmed. There will be something like it, perhaps reminiscent of the GW1 raid areas (DoA, UW etc). That remains to be seen.

But in essence GW2 doesn’t really bring new content as such but rather a repackaging that freshens things up.

Sadly, there are also some things missing. That’s the flip side of this innovation. Perhaps over time more people notice them and become a little disenchanted. The trinity I don’t see coming soon to this game. That’s probably the only thing you can put some stock into….but then again, with Anet you never know.

Seras.5702:

lilstev.3498:

I play for the rewards, because I know the fun comes with the journey to receive them. Just wish the rewards were less RNG based, and more skill based!

Which is a nice idealistic way of viewing it. The problem is that if the rewards are your ultimate driving factor, then your playstyle is molded to be one that is most loot efficient. Which means you’re just another 1 in the zerg train running through the Paillion or Scarlet’s army or in a COF speed run. IF rewards drive you, then that’s where you’ll be. And if that happens to be your idea of fun, well then lucky you. Me? I get bored in there. And the shinies don’t mean a thing when I’m covered by 40 other players’ particle effects.

If fun is your driving factor, then you determine your playstyle and the loot (whatever it may be) follows you.

And what if getting gear together (rewards) is what makes it fun for you? Have you ever considered that fun could be different things for people?

If you can do the same events or dungeons or whatever 30 times and still think they are fun to do, more power to you…but for other people who like building up a character and getting gear together etc and call the fun, you might agree that this games has very little to offer….guess it depends on what you consider “fun”.

Vayne.8563:

You can argue words with me all day if you like. It doesn’t change English.

You don’t get how language works, that much is clear. Languages are living things and meanings of words change constantly. If you treat a dictionary like a law book, then you will have lots of misunderstandings yet.

Besides, the dictionary doesn’t specify the boundaries of what is or isn’t childish as you seem to imply.

But really, back to the OP. You said he has several examples of what he calls childish…well guess what, the word childish is NOT in the OP.

Did you get that? He did not use the word childish at all. NOT ONCE

HE DID NOT USE IT.

See, I was being childish here, but I think it’s the only way you actually pay attention.

The OP talks about the casual kid but I don’t see him being negative about it. You could make an argument to check with him if he was being sarcastic or not but I couldn’t judge that. I’d have to ask.

So please, tell us where he called anything childish in the OP

Vayne.8563:

xephire.8324:

Vayne.8563:

People who call Guild Wars 2 childish are probably misusing the word. A bow the shoots unicorns isn’t childish…there may be another adjective you’re looking for, but childish isn’t it. I’d call it creative…maybe artistic. My son is 25, and he liked the Dream enough to get it. He’s many things, but he’s not childish.

I think you might be confusing a style decision with what constitutes maturity. I assume some people feel unicorns are for children. I know quite a few grown people who like unicorns too.

Light be be for grown ups too. And I can also point out that many of those who crave darkness all the time are teenagers anyway.

People can call GW2 childish or anything they want.They are not misusing the word in anyway.Nobody called your child childish.

When someone uses a word in a way that belies the definition of the word, they are misusing the word. The whole point of language is to communicate. Childish points to immaturity, but a unicorn bow isn’t immature.

It doesn’t belie it’s meaning. That’s your opinion at best and I disagree with it. Childish has multiple meanings as it is and if one particular one stands out to you, then that’s your perception.

But even following your reasoning, I do actually think this game is immature in many ways. Because that is my opinion, it’s perfectly natural that I use the world childish. It makes sense because of my opinion on the matter. You simply have a set meaning for words and don’t get that other people have their versions of what something mean. There are no absolute truths here.

You may not agree that something is childish but that doesn’t mean I used the word incorrectly. Now if a car was red and I called it blue, then you have a factual misrepresentation. There it’s clear.

But what’s childish to one person, may not have to be to another. Therefore I accept that you don’t call it childish but I still do. But I also say that childish or immature is not always a bad thing and that’s your assumption that it would be.

What bothers me here is that there’s too much of it. Good or bad, even too much of a good thing is too much.

Oh and just to be 100% clear. I do think that a bow shooting rainbows and unicorns is childish and I do think it’s immature. Make no mistake, I stand by that. Just realise that it’s opinion and not fact.

What really derails all these conversations is actually you attacking opinions as if they were facts. They’re not.

Vayne.8563:

People who call Guild Wars 2 childish are probably misusing the word. A bow the shoots unicorns isn’t childish…there may be another adjective you’re looking for, but childish isn’t it. I’d call it creative…maybe artistic. My son is 25, and he liked the Dream enough to get it. He’s many things, but he’s not childish.

I think you might be confusing a style decision with what constitutes maturity. I assume some people feel unicorns are for children. I know quite a few grown people who like unicorns too.

Light be be for grown ups too. And I can also point out that many of those who crave darkness all the time are teenagers anyway.

It’s still childish, but that doesn’t make it bad necessarily. We all get stuck in our youth nostalgia to some degree, but to me there’s just too much in this game.

If you prefer terms like frivolous or happy happy joy joy…really I don’t care what you want to call it. I find all this stuff ideal for kids and hence childish.

I like engaging story and atmosphere. When I play a game where the human world has been driven from Ascalon and fighting to hold on while various dragons come alive and threaten the very existence of all living things, then that’s what I want the game to breathe.

The game isn’t dark at all, it doesn’t breathe threat in Orr even and all we get is shooting rainbows and party all day. It’s just like children’s movies where the bad guys are all dumb and can be defeated by children and everything is still upbeat and all’s well that ends well. Adults can also enjoy a movie like that, but that’s because we can still appreciate some childish things and I imagine it’s because we were kids at one point.

But again this game’s story and background is too grim and dark for the game as it is. It makes no sense to me this way. You may not care about that difference, but I do.

And yes, to me it feels like the game is too childish. That bow wouldn’t even have been an issue if it was just that. My problem is that on the balance there’s too much of it, for me to really get engaged into the game’s story and happenings.

Even Harry Potter is darker than GW2 really and there’s lots of childish things in there also, but that’s ok. Maybe Anet should’ve kept the background story a lot lighter…would’ve made more sense to me then.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Who knows, we might actually raise good points and fresh ideas.

This is always the hope of course.

I don’t mind that Vayne has his opinions. What I do mind is that he attacks people with other opinions and calls them subjective or anything else while at the same time he does exactly the same.

If he loves GW2, that’s great for him. But he actually derails threads by methods that he accuses other people of. He then incorrectly thinks that I am defending the method itself which is not true in a lot of cases. What I really accuse him of is the pot calling the kettle black, not that he has a different opinion to mine.

There are points I wanted to discuss with him and it’s ok if it gets heated at times. It got out of hand once not too long ago and I apologised for my part in it. He didn’t. My guess is that he thinks he’s right so he the method doesn’t matter. I am not entirey convinced of that strategy.

Now before this thread gets even more derailed, I will commit to it myself. I will again stop responding to him in this thread and just speak of the topic of the thread before it goes out of control.

Anet set up GW2 with a certain idea in mind. Perhaps it’s not the same idea they started out with (see the discussions on the manifesto for that topic), but at some point the foundation was laid and the game came out. This is a year ago now.

Over 3 million people bought the game. That’s not bad I’d say. I don’t think half of them are playing anymore on a regular basis but that’s normal in my view for MMOs.

For the sake of the discussion we can exclude people who left the game and forgot about it. They are lost to the game and so be it.

Then there are people who are perfectly happy in game. My guess is, they don’t come here a whole lot.

And then there’s a big grey area. People who like this game to some degree, but varying degrees. All this for different reasons as well. Some find it too childish, some find the combat system lacking, the story telling poor, endgame missing, the game to be grindy or too easy etc etc etc. Some will say all of the above.

My guess is that the people who post here to complain generally do like something about the game and want it to go in a different direction. And at that point we are all selfish kittens. We want what we want, but why wouldn’t we?

I object to someone calling someone else selfish because they simply want something. Apparently they feel threatened by someone else’s wishes, as if them saying it will make it true and ruin their experience. Which you could call selfish at the same time.

So, I think people (and I don’t exclude myself) have a tendency to attack opinions, whereas the only thing that could be considered constructive would be to actually discuss opinions and try to understand why someone says something rather than just disagreeing with it or throwing mud. That’s why I attack method more than content, because I know opinions are opinions but they get derailed by the way people discuss rather than actually discussing things.

Ironically I find myself talking about method to people rather than content as a consequence but my point there is this: I don’t care which opinion you have. You can think GW2 is the best game ever and Anet are game gods. It’s ok to be a white knight or a fanboi. But I do find it a shame that the methods people use actually detracts from their views.

There are always exceptions, but I see that people get upset at each other more about the way they talk to each other than the actual opinion.

And so the OP here feels the philosophy behind GW2 as a game was ill conceived. Some will agree, some won’t. Bottom line is that it’s always personal.

I can only say that their current philosophy fails for me. It doesn’t keep me entertained enough to play this game as a MMO. I play it as a single player RPG that I pick up once or twice a year. If it hadn’t been named Guild Wars I probably wouldn’t have played it at all.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Trying to disenfranchise others by calling them selfish — or any other negative — is a sign of immaturity.

Can you see why I think this is very funny?

It’s a bit funny because when I do dailies I take about 40 mins. When I do the monthly, playing as casually as I do, I completed it in just over a week.

So there’s no overal goal for the rest of the month and the dailies get boring quickly in my view. It goes back to the point that in this game things are generally either too easy to get or too much of a grind to get. The balance is just off and for goal oriented people like myself it makes the game uninteresting.

Vayne.8563:

A whole lot is not subjective. It’s just not specific. It’s casual language. It means many or even a bit more than many. It’s not saying most. It’s casual language. When people are talking casually, casual language is allowed. Not every point in these conversations is going to be scientific.

Since the specific meaning of “a whole lot” depends upon the person, or the subject, it is subjective. It seems normal behaviour to speak in non specifics and generalities but that doesn’t stop it from being subjective.

Vayne.8563:

Like your point about snacks and meals…the analogy doesn’t hold. This is where your opinion, which is completely subjective, starts to sound a bit disingenuous.

Thanks for not explaining why it doesn’t hold, but that’s what I’ve come to expect from you. So it’s an unsubstantiated opinion on your behalf.

And don’t turn the tables here. YOU are the one that started calling out people for being subjective. I don’t think it’s wrong to be subjective because that’s what opinions are. I am just saying that you rail on other people for being subjective but you do it yourself. I am not implying that I agree with you that subjectivity is wrong. So you are the disingenuous one here, not me. Just saying.

Vayne.8563:

You have an opinion about what serious content is. But one man’s serious content is another man’s snacks. In real life, meals are important, snacks are not. In video games, you can’t really call one thing snacks and one thing meals, because there’s no nutritional value or what’s good or bad for you here. You’re simply using language as a way to dismiss the opinions of others.

In my mind, dungeons are snacks and open world content is meals.

I do agree with your point about having to do things quickly however. Which is why I’m glad achievement points mean so little.

And that’s my point, it’s all subjective. It’s my opinion and I have reasons for that opinion. Just because you have a different view doesn’t make me wrong or disingenuous. I thought it was clear it was my opinion, my view, not a general truth. That’s your own interpretation.

I see content that comes and goes as snacks, because of the duration and the fact that it doesn’t satisfy me and because it’s just a little bit at a time you need more of it more often. You would agree that the LS stuff has a higher frequency than expansions and are smaller than expansions. That’s why I see an expansion as a full meal: I can eat at my pace and feel satisfied for a while. I don’t need a new meal for a while then. It’s like ordering from the Chinese restaurant. You get a lot of variation, there’s always too much so you always have lots left over for the next day. So the analogy stands. I even gave an explanation for it.

You have a different frame of reference, but you can’t reasonably deny that from my frame of reference this analogy does make sense.

dcypher.2590:

I am not against him sharing his opinion, that’s fine. I just feel the big picture gets lost when you start talking all about yourself while seemingly forgetting that there are thousands of different players.

And who decides what the big picture is? That’s my point, we don’t really know because we can only comment on what we experience ourselves. People who claim to know the big picture I find suspicious. Sure, we can see that there are people who like different things. That’s about as far as we can go on that though, because it’s all assumption beyond that.

dcypher.2590:

The truth is if dueling was implemented the right way it should never effect him or anyone else who doesn’t want to do it. Somewhere off in the corner or in a pit somewhere, who knows. The only way they could really drop the ball is if they attached achievements to it which they should absolutely not do if they decide to create something at all.

I agree with this as you can see in my other post here. It’s not a matter of whether or not it should be implemented but how.

dcypher.2590:

Funny how all I read was a bunch of I’s and me’s in there. MMOs are bigger than you. Selfishness if you ask me. Some intense fear of someone challenging you to a duel that you’d probably be able to default decline anyway is irrational if you ask me.

Not a big fan of Mr Vayne here but to be fair, I prefer the I’s and me’s because it’s more honest to speak about yourself than an imaginary group of people that you think you represent. In the end we can only give our own opinion and let the rest pitch in and then we can see where the opinions lie.

Well, I always felt GW2 was too childish. It don’t mind so much that the game has a generally casual approach. I can play other games for the challenge, but I do find it a shame that the game itself feels so childish.

Characters all look too young
Voice acting is childish
It’s one party after another
The world doesn’t feel threatening, even in Orr
A bow that shoots rainbows and unicorns

See, people can like what they want, but for me, I need to stay away from that stuff, to be able to get something out of this game at all.

Vayne.8563:

Maybe you missed the old days of Goldshire in WoW, where people would stand to challenge players to duels, whether you wanted to duel or not. And if you didn’t duel they’d follow you around, jump up and down on top of you, try to steal your kills.

It’s not the dueling itself that’s the problem, it’s the idiots who think the option to duel means the right to grief. It appeals to a certain type of player. Guild Wars 1 didn’t have dueling ever. Because it was aimed at a different sort of player.

It’s nice to believe that all the people who are against it are simply against it because they don’t want you to have fun…but it’s not true.

People are against it because they’ve had bad experience with the dueling rif-raff in the past.

Well, you could duel in GW1 if you wanted to, but it wasn’t set up directly for it, that’s true.

I see your point about WoW, but it’s easy enough to set up dueling with restrictions to avoid what you describe. You can have a setting where you auto-decline duels or only allow dueling in certain areas etc.

The underlying issue as I see it, is that PvP hasn’t delivered in GW2 on different levels. WvW isn’t too bad even if it’s not your thing normally it can be fun to run around in there from time to time, but to be honest, PvP in GW1 still is much better than in GW2 and PvP was a strong suit in the franchise. So I am still a bit surprised that they haven’t done more with it.

Dueling is one of those things, but I would be interested to see some metrics about sPvP vs the rest of the game as a whole. My feeling is, that it’s not very popular although there may well be more people interested in it if it was set up a bit better.

Because otherwise half the people who do fractals will stop doing them…

The definitions are probably not helpful since a lot of people here don’t have English as their first language and I have this feeling that it’s not very clear for those who do speak English.

To make it easier, intrinsic means the reward is inside already. So the activity by itself is rewarding, meaning fun, challenging, entertaining, fulfilling in some way and no additional reward needs to be given to feel this.

Extrinsic means the reward comes from outside. So your wages are extrinsic as are rewards in game for activities.

The problem with MMOs is that they are made to keep people occupied for undefined amounts of time. A single player RPG for example is finished at some point. You might replay it but you finish a game like that. An MMO goes on, or at least that’s what it’s supposed to do.

You can’t avoid extrinsic rewards, because once you’ve reached max level, finished the story and got your exotic gear together there is very little to do, except repeat what you’ve already done before.

So after doing it a few times, any intrinsic value will have faded from a certain activity (it’s what we call diminishing returns…and NOOOOO I do not mean DR for loot, just in general for anything that happens more often). So people need motivation externally. A reason to do it again.

So that’s why traditional MMOs came up with gear treadmills and dailies to keep people busy and coming back. The idea is that you are working towards something and that makes it worth it to do the same activities again and again.

The bigger issue I see with the current reward system, is that there’s little sense to it and that makes it confusing. The thing is that the reward tells you the value of an activity. So if activity A gives you a good reward and B an ok reward, you want to do acitivity A more. But if you need to get X amount of reward that takes you doing activity A 100 times or B 200 times, this worsens the chances of people doing activity B. And as such that activity is devaluated.

Look at the champion trains going on now. It’s a prime example.

For me a lot of things are too easy to get or too grindy. It doesn’t feel right and if it’s too easy to get the value is also lessened of the reward, which then in turn devalues the activity.

Some people are impervious to this it seems but in essence things do tend to get boring when the balance between effort and value of the rewards makes no sense.

Vayne.8563:

Sorry, but I’m not being subjective when I say lots of people didn’t like Aion. That’s not subjective. Whether the game is good or not isn’t what I spoke about. You like to pick on me…why don’t you pick on the subjective guy I was first responding to.

It’s like you’re not even reading what I’m saying, so I’ll try again.

Example one…Aion is a bad game.

That’s opinion.

Example two… A whole lot of people thought Aion was a bad game.

I’m not saying it’s a fact, but it’s got a REALLY high probability of being a fact. Here’s another fact for you.

I didn’t personally mind Aion at all.

A whole lot is subjective. It means different things to different people. That’s why it’s subjective. What is a whole lot? 10k people, 50k people, 100k people, 2 million people? That’s different for everybody, hence subjective.

The point is though, what are you trying to say with “a whole lot of people didn’t like Aion”? What is that supposed to bring to the table? Since you can say that of any game that was ever made known to man, it’s a meaningless point. It’s just a generality that people use to imply something without actually saying it.

So either you had no point with it or you were implying something with it, which you probably can’t substantiate. But hey, at least you can claim deniability right?

Subject here is that there are people who find GW2’s philosophy flawed and those who don’t. Lots of people on both sides of that if you like. What’s more interesting is why.

So let’s bring it back to why people do or do not care for the GW2 approach.

My main point is that they present a constant stream of snacks. I prefer full meals, something more substantial that I can take my time in doing. I don’t like the snacks because they are often fleeting and gone before you know it. Then it no longer exists: content gone again.

Look at the game. It has a certain foundation that was laid that Anet doesn’t really have the means or possibility to deviate from, even if needed.

It’s an interesting idea to bring out small updates regularly, but what comes and goes puts pressure on people to do it now or miss out on it and what stays are small things here and there that never give you the feeling of a big renewal of the game, a revamp, a new beginning. All games become stale, MMOs for sure…after a while you want to renew it and be reinvigorated. An expansion can do this. Little bits here and there don’t give me that feeling.

I played the game at the start. Quit after the game was out, not even 3 months. I just came back 8 months later and leveled a toon to 80. Got bored again. So yeh, it had its value to some degree, but it doesn’t grab me to the point I want to stay and come back into the world for more than just a bit.

Apparently it works for some people, but I just don’t get that and that’s ok, but numbers aside…all games have lovers and haters. And a lot of the hate comes because people actually are engaged and what the game to be better as they see it.

This game is endgame from the start. Well, whatever happens when you are at 80 then…well it’s not there, you can already do all that stuff before. There is no real end level content because most of the dungeons can be done at lower levels already and gathering mats and money can be done before to. There really is no content for level 80. An interesting design choice but not one that works for me and at least some others as I can see here.

I vote for the first person who can spell hairdo.