Guild Wars 2

Vol.7601:

- Too much waiting around.
-> So you want the boss to be available 24/7, with no respawn timer?

I would recommend to add a long chain of events that restarts the marionette. It would be way more easier to gather people and waiting would be more bearable.

Vol.7601:

- Too much annoyance trying to get a party into an OF that actually has a decent number of players in it.
-> Overflows exist for a reason. It’s an inconvenience you will have to deal with

It seems you didn’t understand that point as you should…

Vol.7601:

- Too much failure.
-> If you fail to utilize strategy and coordination, you will fail. There are other easy bosses in the world if you are not skilled or too lazy enough to commit

But it isn’t about me or him! It’s about people that you participate with. There are hundreds of people that leech or don’t care. And that makes those events IMPOSSIBLE! There needs to be some control about who is participating in the event.

Vol.7601:

- Too little reward when you fail.
-> You obviously didn’t reach the threshold that gave you loot, which is killing one of the wurms’ body.

He strictly said that rewards suck when you fail. And killing one of the wurms is some kind of success. And also he is talking about the marionette encounter.

Vayne.8563:

I’m against instanced content too. It leads to elitism. It leads to problems.

Open world large scale content also leads to elitism (in server scope). And it also leads to other problems. Like those OP wrote about.

So I’ve downloaded the update yesterday. And I wanted to share with you my experience so far.

First I’ve noticed that minor UI changes. It was nothing ground braking. It’s cleaner now.
And then I’ve tried to find something to do… After half an hour I’ve gave up. I didn’t found anything to do because both bosses was inactive.

I don’t know why there is nothing to do besides those two bosses? Why there are no events around them? Why there is nothing else to do?
When I’ve first played this game there was always a heart to complete or a waypoint to unlock. While events occur around me. Now it’s different because I’ve already unlocked all those things. So there must be something to make occupied for the time between respawns.
Why everyone in AN forgot that standing still and waiting for something to happen is not fun?!

kiwituatara.6053:

I don’t know if everyone feels the same way I do about gw2 right now. For me, gw2 has become a ball of mess to the point that its become a little ridiculous:

EASY ways to make money: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHdeAaYz8gM

EASY dungeons: dungeons generally have become heavy zerkers only environment where everyones using the stacking “exploits”.

EASY pvp: AI minion builds (spirit ranger, minion mancer, pu mesmer) have become the new meta and the arenas littered with AI builds. There are also a few other OP builds that doesnt require AIs…

EASY wvw: Doesn’t matter how good your server is, more players + more coverage = win. Also, bring heavies only.

As for the open world pve, I get the idea of end-game ascended gear forcing players to go back to lower level zones for dragonite ores, but its turned into a waiting game: checking http://us.gw2stuff.com/ for world boss timers. The process of getting end-game gear is no longer fun, its become a time-gated waiting game; waiting for daily laurels, waiting for daily mats.

I understand that the devs are trying to fix some of these things right now (such as bringing down the zerker meta https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvE-Revising-the-DPS-Meta), but there have been some bad ideas that somehow managed to make its way into the game. Though, the game is still young and theres still time to fix a lot of loopholes and balance issues.

HOWEVER, if I could describe this game with one word at the moment, it would be frustrating.

This is how horizontal progression driven and content lock free game works… It’s just a big gold farm.

Vayne.8563:

HiddenNick.7206:

Vayne.8563:

Thank you for posting this. I agree with this. I would prefer there was no vertical progression in the game. I don’t think that it makes this a better game.

Dude… As far as I know when you play the game you level up a character. And as soon as it’s a level 80 and the vertical progression is over you make another one. So there is not so much difference between you and people that want to progress their characters instead of creating a new one.

There are other ways to progress your characters without vertical progression. There are ways to progress via horizontal progression.

I didn’t say I’m against progression. I’m against gear grind in general.

People played Guild Wars 1 for years, without any stat progression on armor or weapons. What they got instead was new and better skills. And you could level up some skills, so they did more. That to me was far more fun than getting better gear.

I never wanted to be a coat rack for greatness. And if I wanted gear grind, I’d have become a watchmaker.

I’ve played gw1. I was pretty experienced pvp gamer in that game. But I’ve always considered PvE aspect of gw1 to be lacking. After completing the main story it was always about farming gold… It was grindy and repetitive. There was hundred of ways to play it but there was always that one valid way you could find on the wiki. Pretty horrible experience to me. And it’s pretty much what gw2 is becoming. So you don’t need to tell me how gw1 was. And how h.p. worked in that game. I know it from my own experience.
I’m pretty sure that gw1 would die soon if it wasn’t about its PvP component.
Just to clarify. I’m not saying that gear grinding is the way to go. But I know that if you consider gw1 as a perfect example of progression implementation then you are wrong.

Kevan.8912:

i loved to grind for a title. for skins. i felt really motivated and found it a free choice.

You loved grind for a title? Really?! I hated gw1 titles… It really felt bad playing to get them.

Vayne.8563:

Thank you for posting this. I agree with this. I would prefer there was no vertical progression in the game. I don’t think that it makes this a better game.

Dude… As far as I know when you play the game you level up a character. And as soon as it’s a level 80 and the vertical progression is over you make another one. So there is not so much difference between you and people that want to progress their characters instead of creating a new one.

Cormac.3871:

What about this idea: eight maps in Cantha playable only by Canthan characters for the first two months meaning everyone has to level up there, no blasting through with you level 80.

Or… Just change the level cap? Maybe without increasing item levels (more or less a system like paragon levels in d3)? Or add some other progression system instead? Why should they force people to create more characters?!

Chokolata.1870:

Some new maps, and perhaps a precursor scavenger hunt that takes a long time and takes you all over the world could be pretty cool no?

Huge grind without any feel of progression is a bad idea… You grind hundred of hours and then you stand in the center of lions arch and feel that the reward was a waste of time. It’s not what anyone wants and that’s the kind of thing that drives people of the game. Progressions systems aren’t suppose to be like that.

PokerTuna.6170:

Is this question a joke?

It’s not a joke! I really don’t see how adding new maps can help the game. Don’t get me wrong. I know that new maps will most likely interest a lot of people. But I really doubt that adding new maps is going to make people play as long as it took to develop those maps.

To make this work they need to add some engaging progression systems that makes playing those maps worth a while. Something a whole lot different then dailies…

Corpus Christi.2057:

HiddenNick.7206:

Just wondering… The latest new map a Tower Nightmares was abandoned few days after its release. So I just wonder why so many people want new maps? I would rather like to see an update that fixes the issue with deserted maps…

Tower of Nightmares is not a “new explorable map”. It’s a LS instance.

Best regards

I didn’t wrote that ToF is: “new explorable map”. So I don’t know who are you quoting?

Best regards

Ok, I must say I’m a little mad about this thread. Because what I considered an interesting discussion was moved to suggestions sub-forum and died.

I don’t how in the world asking about something can be a suggestion?!

Shakkara.2641:

Levels are a stupid mechanic that should never have been in GW2 in the first place. Downscaling and sidekicking tackle some of the major downsides of having levels, but also result in many other issues.

Unfortunately, they cant really change downscaling because otherwise the zones will be too hard for low level players (who do not have access to any rare/exotic/ascended quality equipment).

REMOVE LEVELS!

Oh god… Are you even serious? Vertical progression hate is going absurd on this forum…

PS. Remove VP from the game = resolve hunger issue on the world!

Guys… The real question is:

What would you prefer to find in the gem store:
1. Majority of cosmetic items. Like: all armors, all cool looking weapon skins(really distinguishing from others) and other relevant rewards(like infinite picks) – pretty much the way it is now.
2. New career options for your characters in the gem store. But all cosmetic rewards would be back in the game world. Absolutely opposite of what’s currently going with the gem store.

There is no third way here… Or I don’t see it.

Morrigan.2809:

It will never happen-
whether you like the gem store or not, it is for cosmetic and fluff items only- as it should be.
New content will be added to the game in due time and it will not be through the store.

How do you know?

Kulvar.1239:

The title need a tag [How to kill GW2].
Gemstore must exclusively provide skins and out fight bonuses.

So what is the PvE going to be about? Skins are already gem store exclusive. Stuff like new back pieces or minis are not enough to make people interested in new content.

And new professions are NOT something that you need! It was far worse to not have some profession in Gw1 since you need it there for your secondary. But its different here. You don’t need a new profession to keep playing the one you already have.

knives.6345:

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

Kulvar.1239:

The title need a tag [How to kill GW2].
Gemstore must exclusively provide skins and out fight bonuses.

Why is it okay for other games to charge you 60$ for an expansion that includes a new race or class, but GWII is not allowed to sell those things seperately?

Because expansions contains alot more than just new characters?

Like what? New dungeons? We did get a few without paying anything!

How would you feel about it?

Personally I don’t like the items that are currently in the gem store. It seems like everything that I need to work toward to is sold for gems. For example: there are no new armors to work on, but there is a way to just buy them with real money… That doesn’t feel right to me. I also don’t feel good about just buying things that I suppose to earn by playing. It would be a lot more fun to earn phalanx armor by playing Tower of Nightmares then farming gold in CoF to get it.

Also… It always felt good paying for gw1 expansions… And expansions sounds more like new professions/races/crafting disciplines to me. And less like: new picks/scythes/axes or an instant skin access.

Tranc.6780:

Again, gotta disagree. It took them 6 years to develop the graphics engine, design the 8 professions, skill & trait system, combat mechanics, how WvW and sPvP would work, the setting/background, the personal story, 32 dungeon paths, and I bet a ton of developer tools, infrastructure & foundational code, in addition to the 25 open world maps. All from scratch. Now that those things are in place, they could certainly put out 25 maps in a year, or year and a half, if they wanted to. But their priorities where elsewhere.

Ok, so just think for minute about what they’ve managed to add this year… After thinking about that do you still think that it’s possible for them to develop a whole continent in place of LS? I don’t. Besides… When you develop your team members are responsible for different things. So development of everything overlaps. Environment artists never work on game mechanics…

How could you think that essentially adding a whole new world would not help the game?

Current map purpose is to level up characters and to make place for living world releases. And it serves that purpose. But take note that all maps are pretty dead besides those that are hosts for current LS release. So LS releases makes people play… Not the vast world.

Tranc.6780:

HiddenNick.7206:

How much does it take to explore a single map in gw2? 3-4 hours? That’s not so much for a MMO game… And AN have to spend a lot of time developing it. So I don’t think that adding new maps to just explore them is going to make the game any better.

Then I think we have to disagree, because I believe it makes all the difference.

GW2 is 16 months old. When GW1 was 18 months old, it had expanded to 3 continents, nearly tripling its original size. This also included two very lengthy story lines, which were much much better than the living story.

So I’m not talking about just 1 new map to explore, I’m talking about 50. It took me 6 years to get as bored with GW1 as I am with GW2 right now. The development time has not been better spent on jumping puzzles, mini-games, and Scarlet.

But gw2 is a different game. It took them 6 years to develop the world that we currently have. So it does seem as the current game system requires a far more effort to expand the world. So it doesn’t seem to me as tripling the game world size in 18 months is possible. And with that in mind I don’t think that adding new maps is going to help the game.

Dark Jericho.8609:

Because more variety is awesome.

But does it help the game? Do you think that If we had got twice as many maps then we would be playing twice as long with a single character?

Personally I would love to see new maps… But I don’t think that it would help the game. Most of people have played new maps (Southsun, Bazaar, Tower) just to get the achievements and then leave.
I don’t see so many people out in the open world exploring either. And if I do meet some people exploring then it seems to me that they just run from one poi to the other.

sorudo.9054:

why does it “have” to be a lvl 80 map, why not have some new mid/high level maps?

a while ago i was discussing on what level cantha should start, we ended up with a decision that it should start as a lvl 50 area and build up to lvl 80.
this is so mid level characters can enjoy cantha while not making it to much a “let’s rush there with a new character” expansion, it’s just right.
you might think that you want more with a lvl 80 character but it beg’s the question, we already have southsun and look how many are actually playing there.
also, a max character already has allot of exclusive things, having something in a mid level opens up the game so much.
even the presents of wintersday are way to much focused on max level, any character on the appropriate level are struggling to even take out one doll.

so to ask for a new lvl 80-only map is like asking Anet to make the same mistake they already did, it’s better to expand what we need rather then expand to lower boredom.

But why we need level 50 area?! I don’t get it…

Finnway.2183:

Because exploring new areas while leveling was one of the best experiences I have had while playing Guild Wars 2.

The problem is that the maps are going to be level 80 areas and you’re not going to level up in them.

Tranc.6780:

Because running in a huge zerg over old and tired ground, no matter how much they dress it up, has nothing on the thrill of exploring new land and wondering what’s coming up over the next hill, even if I have to do it solo!

How much does it take to explore a single map in gw2? 3-4 hours? That’s not so much for a MMO game… And AN have to spend a lot of time developing it. So I don’t think that adding new maps to just explore them is going to make the game any better.

Just wondering… The latest new map a Tower Nightmares was abandoned few days after its release. So I just wonder why so many people want new maps? I would rather like to see an update that fixes the issue with deserted maps…

Bezagron.7352:

HiddenNick.7206:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Bezagron.7352:

Horizontal progression page summary
Snip

Content

• Vanquishing. Example was another mode in dungeons were you have to vanquish all the monsters in the dungeon. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406082
  Another good post on Dungeon vanquishing https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3406646
• PvE map vanquishing https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/3#post3407867
• PvE arena https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3406767
• Challenge missions https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3406960
• Crafting – Jaken has writing a interesting write up regarding crafting https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3407102
• Faction progression – Faction missions, armour, skills, emotes
• Order progression – Order missions, armour, skills, emotes
• Further personal story progression
  *Guild progression – adding guild halls

World development

• Louveepine write some great ideas of developing exploration https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/3#post3407529

Awesome work Bezagron.

Summary bump.

Chris

Am I the only one a bit disappointed… All that this community could think off is generally: “more of the same”. Where are the crazy ideas of some new progression systems? Or suggestions about something that could be copied from other games?

@HiddenNick I recommend looking at some to the ideas under Content & Louveepine’s ideas under World development. At the moment I think everyone’s covering existing ideas. I believe we’re all just starting and it early days for this discussion is there any crazy idea’s you have, would love to read them.

Ok so one of my favorite systems of all time was Materia from FF7. How that worked? Materia was something like Sigils or infusions. It was a thing that you put into your weapon. The tricky part was that the materia could level up. And the other cool thing about it was that in some weapon slots materia could be combined with other materia to alter its effects. Some materia could alter the other in such a way that it effect was triggered twice or be stronger or behave differently.

What I really don’t like about gw2 reward systems is that there is not much you can look forward to when opening a chest. And this system could create another level of customization without adding to much complexity.

Leveling up materia(Sigils) could be also a fun thing as it doesn’t have to mean that you need to kill a bunch of monsters to level it up. Different materia(Sigils) could require different way to level up. And it could matter a lot for people that like to level up things

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Bezagron.7352:

Horizontal progression page summary
Lets me know if you think I’ve missed something

Character progression

New Build: This includes;

• New weapons
• New skills including expansion of weapons skills
• New traits
• New stat combinations
• Sub-classes https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3406543
• New runes and sigils (ThanksTeckos.1305 missed that and I even have a post talking about then https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/6#post3410128)

Cosmetics: This include;

• PvE skin locker. Similar to the sPvP locker https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406328
• Mini pets. Slots to place mini pets in so they don’t just go to collection and a game that involves mini pets. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406223
• Customising home instance – One main aspect requested is customising player housing where we can build and decorate the house (Thanks Donari.5237 missed that with home instance and player housing)
• An in game Hall of Monuments for GW2 to display achievements in game. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406216
• New skins. Armour / weapons / back items
• More emotes
• Alternate animations – another collection.
• New dyes.
• Weapon dyes – ability to dye weapons
• Some type of armour customisation. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406099
• Item progression. The fractal capacitor was used as an example
• Item enhancement. This could fall under item progression but the example used involved the flamekissed incident. The idea was to be able to enhance the human cultural armour so it could have the flamekissed skin.

Content

• Vanquishing. Example was another mode in dungeons were you have to vanquish all the monsters in the dungeon. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406082
  Another good post on Dungeon vanquishing https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3406646
• PvE map vanquishing https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/3#post3407867
• PvE arena https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3406767
• Challenge missions https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3406960
• Crafting – Jaken has writing a interesting write up regarding crafting https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3407102
• Faction progression – Faction missions, armour, skills, emotes
• Order progression – Order missions, armour, skills, emotes
• Further personal story progression
  *Guild progression – adding guild halls

World development

• Louveepine write some great ideas of developing exploration https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/3#post3407529

Awesome work Bezagron.

Summary bump.

Chris

Am I the only one a bit disappointed… All that this community could think off is generally: “more of the same”. Where are the crazy ideas of some new progression systems? Or suggestions about something that could be copied from other games?

FeveredDreamer.2693:

I don’t agree with that being the “definition” of an MMO, I play an MMO to (among other reasons) have an ongoing online environment to explore and enjoy with friends (and enemies). Endless vertical progression plays 0 role in my definition of an MMO and maybe it is worth considering that (even though everyone hates those old dev comments being brought up) the idea of not having endless vertical progression (particularly tied to gear) is actually interesting to some of the player base.

1. Who said anything about a definition? It’s certainly not a definition of a MMO game. But it sure is a part of what Gw2 is trying to be. Arena Net is updating its game every two weeks and because of that the game is growing. Whether you like it or not.
2. There is no such thing as endless vertical progression(or endless gear treadmill). Vertical progression is extended only if the game itself is extended at the same time. So VP persists only as long as the game is supported.
3. VP and HP is not so different as being “endless” or the time you spend with the game progressing. There are many problems with both progression types. And we need both in the game.

Check my previous posts in this thread if you want to discuss some more with me!

Gibson.4036:

HiddenNick.7206:

You are talking like Vertical Progression is the next bad thing after meteor shower! And why is it so bad? Why do you think that Horizontal Progression is vastly superior to it? You’re not playing an ordinary game. You’re playing an MMO game. And that’s the kind game of game that grows vertically and endlessly (or to the moment when people stops playing it) whether you like or not. And characters should grow with it.

I’m not sure how you got that out of that post. It was in response to a conversation about whether we can accept that Ascended is the final tier of gear, which means the discussion about vertical progression is over, and we can move on to just talking about horizontal progression.

I was pointing out that, quite the contrary, ArenaNet is committed to continuing vertical progression, and therefore the subject is far from closed.

I read you words out of the context. I must agree that I misunderstood you there in a worst way possible. English i not my native language but that shouldn’t be an excuse. Sorry.

As to your assertion that MMO automatically means vertical progression, that is certainly the tradition of MMORPGs, but there is nothing inherent in Massive, Multiplayer, Online, or Role Playing Game that means vertical progression is necessary.

There are plenty of Multiplayer games, Online games, and Role Playing Games that do not have continual, vertical progression.

I already did a post about it in this thread. I did explain using fractals and dungeons as an example of why I think that VP is needed for the PvE aspect of the game. What I have in mind is that adding permanent and relevant content to the game without Vertical Progression is only possible at the expense of other content that is already in the game. And having in mind how people dislike temporary content that’s a problem.

I am also not dead set against vertical progression. I do, however, hate the current implementation of Ascended gear for a variety of reasons I’ve listed previously.

Vertical progression that flows naturally out of immersive gameplay is fine. GW2 leveling is an example. Vertical Progression where the extrinsic reward vastly eclipses the intrinsic rewards (Ascended Gear) is what made me take a break from playing GW2.

I absolutely agree!

EgonVenkman.1907:

HiddenNick.7206:

You are talking like Vertical Progression is the next bad thing after meteor shower! And why is it so bad? Why do you think that Horizontal Progression is vastly superior to it? You’re not playing an ordinary game. You’re playing an MMO game. And that’s the kind game of game that grows vertically and endlessly (or to the moment when people stops playing it) whether you like or not. And characters should grow with it.

Go look at GW1.

This was billed as the MMO that DIDN’T have VP. It was supposed to be different. However, you and all the other MMO content locusts, rammed through everything in one month, then scared Anet into releasing content for people they didn’t even market the game to.

There is an endless variety of MMOs with the endless vertical progression you desire. This game wasn’t built for it, but added as a complete kneejerk reaction, with devs lying/claiming they didn’t lie/proved they were lying/claiming “you didn’t understand what i said”. Leaving the community/dev interaction completely hostile to one another, resulting in the CDI efforts being put forth now. All because you wanted a carbon copy clone of every other MMO experience with slightly different graphics.

First: you should be infracted for your post.
Second: this suppose to be respectful discussion.
Third: Gw2 had a VP from the beginning of it’s existence (as Gw1 did).
Fourth: how is that talk making you any better from the “locusts”?!

Faowri.4159:

HiddenNick.7206:

Gibson.4036:

Khisanth.2948:

VOLKON.1290:

I think we’re putting too much thought into “vertical” progression. It should be clear that hardly anyone (a vast minority) wants a continual power creep to be added to the game. So, for the sake of simplicity, let’s say that ascended gear is it. That is max “power”. If that can be agreed upon then the whole topic of vertical itself comes screeching to a halt and we automatically shift to the horizontal line of thinking… now that we know and have resolved ourselves to the idea that ascended is it, how accessible do we make ascended?

Are we? It was pretty clear that hardly anyone wants continual power creep a year ago as well yet here we are with the ascended gear. The strongest statement I’ve seen for not having more in the future is “I certainly hope not”, that is a very weak statement without any sort of commitment. I find the lack of conviction to be very disturbing.

Agreed. We have no guarantees. Even if Ascended is the final tier, which we haven’t been given an unequivocal statement about, we’ve also been told that ArenaNet is committed to continual, gradual vertical progression.

There are plenty of avenues for this without implementing a new tier of gear. We don’t yet have ascended equivalent runes, sigils, infusions or consumables. All of these things can gradually be implemented over the next year, and all with as steep of an acquisition curve as Ascended armor and weapons.

In addition, the last statement we have from ArenaNet is that they expect there to eventually be a level-cap increase, though we have no time-frame hinted at. That means we could have level 90 Ascended gear to chase.

Going on ArenaNet’s most recent statements surrounding this area, we can (without 100% confidence) expect not to see a gear above Ascended, but also expect that vertical progression will continue for the foreseeable future.

Statements that Ascended is the final tier of gear do not mean that vertical progression has ended.

Statements in this thread that they want to concentrate on horizontal progression do not mean that vertical progression has ended.

Anyone who thinks that the release of ascended armor has put an end to VP is either not paying attention, or really wants to believe it in spite of the evidence we currently have.

You are talking like Vertical Progression is the next bad thing after meteor shower! And why is it so bad? Why do you think that Horizontal Progression is vastly superior to it? You’re not playing an ordinary game. You’re playing an MMO game. And that’s the kind game of game that grows vertically and endlessly (or to the moment when people stops playing it) whether you like or not. And characters should grow with it.

I’m not sure why you seem to think horizontal progression results in no character growth.

That’s not what I meant. I would love to check out new weapons and skills. And that’s also a growth for me. But the game can’t grow without VP. For example lets compare dungeons (Horizontal “Progression”) and fractals(Vertical Progression). Dungeons can’t coexist because one diminishes the importance of the other. Like CoFp1 made all other paths less relevant to the game (progression wise). Fractal levels on the other hand aren’t mutually exclusive. First fractal level will always be the only way to get to level 2 and will be always relevant to the game. In the context of the whole game it works analogously.
I’m not saying that HP is bad and VP is good. I think that both types of progression have their place in the game (in opposite of Gibson).

PS. I also think that AC gear is useless and takes to much time to get

TheDaiBish.9735:

HiddenNick.7206:

You are talking like Vertical Progression is the next bad thing after meteor shower! And why it’s so bad? And why do you think that Horizontal Progression is vastly superior to it? You’re not playing an ordinary game. You’re playing an MMO game. And that’s the kind game of game that grows vertically and endlessly (or to the moment when people stops playing it) whether you like or not. And characters should grow with it.

Personally, I see horizontal more as growth of options, whereas vertical is simply numbers going up.

As such, I prefer a focus on horizontal since allowing players more options allows for more varied mechanics, whereas vertical is more a case of ‘I did 10 damage now I do 12’ so the growth of options isn’t there, thus encounter mechanics have to stay within the limit of the tools the player has.

Your mistaken. Check my previous posts in this thread – I don’t want to repeat myself. VP is not only about numbers going up.

And there are as many problems with Horizontal Progression as with Vertical Progression. Horizontal Progression creates options and you choose one – the best one. And that’s the main problem with it. Even now there are better and worse Sigils. So the majority of sigils are just a crowd for the useful ones. More options makes it more difficult to balance them all.

Gibson.4036:

Khisanth.2948:

VOLKON.1290:

I think we’re putting too much thought into “vertical” progression. It should be clear that hardly anyone (a vast minority) wants a continual power creep to be added to the game. So, for the sake of simplicity, let’s say that ascended gear is it. That is max “power”. If that can be agreed upon then the whole topic of vertical itself comes screeching to a halt and we automatically shift to the horizontal line of thinking… now that we know and have resolved ourselves to the idea that ascended is it, how accessible do we make ascended?

Are we? It was pretty clear that hardly anyone wants continual power creep a year ago as well yet here we are with the ascended gear. The strongest statement I’ve seen for not having more in the future is “I certainly hope not”, that is a very weak statement without any sort of commitment. I find the lack of conviction to be very disturbing.

Agreed. We have no guarantees. Even if Ascended is the final tier, which we haven’t been given an unequivocal statement about, we’ve also been told that ArenaNet is committed to continual, gradual vertical progression.

There are plenty of avenues for this without implementing a new tier of gear. We don’t yet have ascended equivalent runes, sigils, infusions or consumables. All of these things can gradually be implemented over the next year, and all with as steep of an acquisition curve as Ascended armor and weapons.

In addition, the last statement we have from ArenaNet is that they expect there to eventually be a level-cap increase, though we have no time-frame hinted at. That means we could have level 90 Ascended gear to chase.

Going on ArenaNet’s most recent statements surrounding this area, we can (without 100% confidence) expect not to see a gear above Ascended, but also expect that vertical progression will continue for the foreseeable future.

Statements that Ascended is the final tier of gear do not mean that vertical progression has ended.

Statements in this thread that they want to concentrate on horizontal progression do not mean that vertical progression has ended.

Anyone who thinks that the release of ascended armor has put an end to VP is either not paying attention, or really wants to believe it in spite of the evidence we currently have.

You are talking like Vertical Progression is the next bad thing after meteor shower! And why is it so bad? Why do you think that Horizontal Progression is vastly superior to it? You’re not playing an ordinary game. You’re playing an MMO game. And that’s the kind game of game that grows vertically and endlessly (or to the moment when people stops playing it) whether you like or not. And characters should grow with it.

Morrigan.2809:

I agree, I would very much like to know if this is the final stat or vertical progression so I can just continue to ignore it in favor of my own in game goals.

I care about horizontal progression and that is what keeps me playing since betas.

I have no interest in ascended gear at all.
and I will keep all my characters in exotic as long as I am allowed to do so by the game mechanics.

Horizontal Progression keeps you playing? There is very little of that in the game right now. So what are you talking about exactly? I’m not calling you a liar… I just don’t know what you have in mind?

Faowri.4159:

HiddenNick.7206:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Everyone gets bored of playing the same style eventually, and having vastly more skills, traits and item effects help to stave this. Vertical progression doesn’t do that.

Yes it does! Imagine that you get 20 more character levels. Then you not only get your stats increased. You also get new trait level! So that you can choose up to 4 traits in each line. You also get more trait points. That enables more build variety and flexibility! All those things are Vertical Progression.

Or they could lock that stuff behind additional challenge-based content – for example, getting your final 30 attribute points in GW1 required completion of some additional quests, not grinding of additional levels.

Ye… But it would still be a Vertical Progression just locked behind those specific quests instead of XP (that requires you to do anything you like).

Xae Isareth.1364:

Everyone gets bored of playing the same style eventually, and having vastly more skills, traits and item effects help to stave this. Vertical progression doesn’t do that.

Yes it does! Imagine that you get 20 more character levels. Then you not only get your stats increased. You also get new trait level! So that you can choose up to 4 traits in each line. You also get more trait points. That enables more build variety and flexibility! All those things are Vertical Progression.

Just wanted to throw that here:

Horizontal or Vertical… It’s not a question you should have ask… Just make it fun! Don’t waste your time on focusing on anything else!

I would love to see the Tower again. So why not to make something that uses the concept of Dynamic Events but on a huge scale? Just imagine Kraits rebuilding the tower and finally making it appear again. That would be really cool! Much cooler then what we currently have left from it…

Is it? I don’t want to make any verdict myself. I’m just honestly asking. Because I think that AN wanted to achieve few things with living world. And I’m wondering if they’ve succeeded.

So let me ask you this:
- Does the world feel more believable to you thanks to LW content?
- Does the world feel more natural?
- Do you feel as part of the world?
- Do you feel the world is evolving around you?
- Do you feel that making content temporary is important to achieve the principals of Living World?
- Does temporary content has some advantages over permanent content?

For me Scarlet could have been great character… The problem is that Arena Net doesn’t know how to tell a story in their own game.

I’m glad about longer break from updates. It really feels refreshing. And maybe this time they will add somethings that is actually interesting and fun to play.

Squee Squashington.5189:

Emissary Vex.5690:

In any other mmo, every single quest gives rewards. Since GW2 has felt the need to change out quests for un-immersive achievements; every single achievement in living world should give gold, exp, loot, or karma just like a quest should.

The game is designed to keep you poor, probably to get people to buy gems as a shortcut.

Nope… It’s because AN doesn’t have a large pool of things to reward you with.

nekretaal.6485:

Every 500 points gives out 2 gold. 1/500 * 2gold = 40 copper. So you can imagine yourself earning 40 copper every time you get an achievement point if it makes you feel better.

40 copper you say…

You see that is the problem with GW2 reward system. AN has so few options to reward people that they need to develop those silly systems: you need to collect this to craft this to increase this so you can craft this if you have enough of this and this. And they give so little for playing.

milo.6942:

The leveling process is aimless and dull.

And what’s not?

TooBz.3065:

HiddenNick.7206:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sometimes the leveling process can feel like a grind…

I really can’t imagine how can you consider leveling a grind? When your leveling your pushed around the world to do different things and develop your character! Where is grinding in that?!

Grinding starts when your level 80 and everything you can do is repeating the same things over and over again!

To me, it’s a grind because I’ve done it before. Sure, the Necromancer was fun at first, but that basically wore off sometime between level 20 and 30. Now at level 60 it’s just the same pattern over and over again. Drop wells, focus 4, dagger, dagger, siphon blood. Rinse and repeat.

So when it’s leveling and you’ve done it before then it’s a grind. But if you’re level 80 and you’re doing CoFp1 for a hundred time then it’s not a grind?! Where is logic in that?!

And your argument about combat being repetitive… It’s not only about characters with less then 80 levels. It’s about ALL characters! If you don’t change your build from time to time then it’s going to be repetitive – period.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sometimes the leveling process can feel like a grind…

I really can’t imagine how can you consider leveling a grind? When you’re leveling you’re pushed around the world to do different things and develop your character! Where is grinding in that?!

Grinding starts when your level 80 and everything you can do is repeating the same things over and over again!

What is so much fun at level 80?! Personally I think that the game stops being fun when I hit level cap.

Finnway.2183:

ArenaNet uses TV as a comparison for the Living Story. But right now each Living Story patch arguably has less “story” than a 30 minute TV episode.

Each episode has few dialogs and a cutscene… That’s not even close to 30 minutes. It’s more like 5 minutes.

Kattami.2084:

Personally, I’d give it a 3/10. Scarlet being behind it all once again is just…ugh. We had a chance to learn something new and interesting with this fractal, but no. Scarlet did it. Again.The new gem store armors annoy me as well, not just because they rehashed the human T3, but because once again we get gem store exclusive armor, that like many other sets, is on fire. We have a ton of gear with a fire theme, why do we need more? And honestly are we ever going to get new skins that aren’t tied to the gem store? I can’t even remember ever getting a new, full set of armor that didn’t cost gems.

The change to sylvari cultural armor is what personally annoyed me the most though. I spent a ton of gold outfitting my sylvari, only to log on today to find her looking MUCH worse. This has happened before, anet. I get that a lot of people complained, and changes were made to get the old looks back. I understand that a lot of people like how it is now. But please, in a game so heavily focused on aesthetics, don’t just change how a sets textures and dye scheme work so suddenly like that. Changing it again hasn’t pleased everyone, it’s just aggravated a new group of people.

The one good thing to me, and the only thing that earned this update a 3/10, is the new gvg arena. Finally we have an area without bloodlust, allowing us to have legitimate duels and gvgs. Yeah there’s people trolling in it, but that’s just people, I can’t entirely blame anet for that one.

I love GW2. I really do. I’ve played since the first week it released and have had a blast doing so. But I mean, lately…there’s new mmos on the horizon, anet. They’re gradually starting to look more and more appealing.

So let’s sum it up… You care more about the dresses then gameplay… Great! So what happened about playing the game for fun and not for the rewards?!

And what would be my rate? 3/10. And not because they’ve messed up with the dresses. It’s because the story sucks – its just a boring reveal that it was scarlet again. But there was no beginning and no middle of the story (if the update was all about the story then I would rate it 1/10 actually).

And the gameplay. The new fractal is the worst one ever made. Other two are just returning old dungeons that should have stayed in the world!

And the rewards revamp… At least the agony resistance still serves a purpose… So at least they didn’t broke something that was working(that’s why I rate it 3/10 as a whole). Other then that it’s still all useless and unrewarding mess.

So I’m pretty disappointed with pretty much ALL rewards. Each and every reward in this is game is something that I don’t need!

Examples:
Skins – I don’t like 90% of those and my character is already looking the way I wanted it to.
Titles – who cares? You can’t even show them in the game…
Gold – why should I care? The only things you can buy with it are skins.

Not that I’m playing only for the rewards. Each time new LW update comes out I’m logging in and checking it out. But after half and hour I’ve already seen everything and since I don’t care about those crappy things you get for grinding I don’t have any reason to continue playing.

I’ve seen many threads about rewards and most of them are full of people claiming that all rewards suppose to be tied strictly to horizontal progression. So I’m asking… Where are those rewards?! Why AN is not adding new Weapons or expanding on character builds? Where are new skills and exciting ways of acquiring them?

And please… Don’t tell me that AN went in the direction of vertical progression because after adding AC gear over a year ago they’ve never added even hinted about adding more tiers.