Guild Wars 2

the centaur white mantle alliance it will be like half man half horse and its already in game.

If you could have 4 things for your engineer what would they be?
here are mine:

1) ability to use main hand mace (Fixer Upper)
2) new traits
3) things like grenades not getting the short end of the stick on both sides of blind and retaliation (please one or the other not both)
4) repair the damage done to the kit refinement trait, even if it has to be moved up to master or grandmaster level.

AndrewSX.3794:

Inb4: “Changed Slaying Potions tooltip to reflect actual effect”.

Why bother fix it when you can pretend it’s a feature?

oh you mean like what happened with the superior runes of the pack…I was so stubborn that I held on to those for probably 6 months after they “fixed” them.

hmm quite the interesting thread, as a question though, can you please point me to an asuran megalaser I believe both the pact and the vigil used megalasers most likely created by asura but I have never seen an asura megalaser, surely if asura would take responsibility for orders like the vigil, and alliance devices like the pact, they would have to take the same responsibility for organizations like the inquest, both the positives and the negatives (advances in magitech, and negatives in failed experiments)

on behalf of all those people who kept asking for infinite gathering tools to be made account bound I would like to say thank you anet(saw enough of these in the suggestions forum). I personally never paid for any but I hope this pleases your customers and gets you a bit more money in the form of people being willing to buy more varied gathering tool looks for their different characters.

Personally I don’t understand how this would make it any different for you, you still have all your gathering tools on demand, you would just have to pick them up from a bank whenever you wanted to gather something(if you only had bought one bunch of gathering tools)…so you got what you paid for now with an extra bit of functionality and you are upset? I guess I just don’t understand I bought one of the black lion merchant permanent contracts instead of ever buying infinite gathering tools.

one question are you just destroying the turrets immediately?, because if so thumper turret has 3 blast finishers and you might want to use it (one from overcharge, another from detonation, and finally one from its toolbelt skill rumble).

a solid /pantontheback…and 2 blues a green and a mini dolyak

just a random suggestion I had what do you think of the idea of people putting up bounties on other people guilds or even themselves in WvW. Examples first one to kill me gets 10g, every player killed from a certain guild gives the killer 5 silver, Every time someone kills X person they get 50 silver. these were just some ideas I had to make things a little different in WvW, I don’t know how you could get it to work as you cant see the other persons name from other servers, or communicate with them. I just thought it might be a fun idea…I suppose I could see this being abused though. suggestions/changes anyone?

Anicetus.1253:

Also works as ele with tornado i think. It’s a funny thing but generally not too useful since the difference to full buffed only isn’t that huge.

does it work with the eles tornado it didn’t seem to allow me to pick it up when I was in elixir X’s tornado form but Ill have to try it again as I only tried it once.

very interesting just a little confused on your theory with needing krait for mesmers as scarlet has already allied herself with part of the nightmare court and many of their leading members were powerful mesmers (ex faolain, and vevina)

So I just noticed this the other day that while in the rampage form from elixir X you can actually pick up FGS and use all of their skills for a huge boost in power and damage. does this also work for a warrior’s rampage? and is this a valid tactic to try in speed runs, or has testing been done and its just not worth it?

it looks like most if not all of your pictures here are taken in and around the area of the temple of melandru once your world had captured it. notice this is the event that occurs right before this, my guess would be the interrupter is interrupting zhaitan’s corruption in that area allowing for things to regrow in that area (I believe its been that way since release).

I disagree completely the charr are the ones who established the engineer class, and it relies more on mechanical power and gunpowder, while asura inventions revolve around the use of magitech. I personally see charr as being like scientist, while asura feel more along the lines of alchemists or artificers.

Edit this is not to say that I wouldn’t like more skills for us engineer I just don’t want to see anything along the lines of a “magic laser cannon” but that is just me personally.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Not sure I buy that. Jack of all trades are common in end-game scenarios across other MMOs. Based off my own personal experience in WoW and FFXI, Shamans and Red Mages when I played those games had absolutely zero issues joining groups—in PvE or PvP.

Tequatl is perhaps the largest top-tier encounter we’ve witnessed in this game, and I certainly contributed plenty on the end of defense. During Sanctum of Rall’s first server kill with EG, CDS, and GSCH (sorry if I’m forgetting anyone else—there were so many!), I turned on my own blue chip and kept my turrets alive. Super Elixir and Healing Turret didn’t single-handedly keep them alive. I had a lot of help, of course. But our extensive CC control through Overcharged Shot, Net Shot, and Air Blast simultaneously kept champs/vets off the turreteers while I was healing them. And the truth of the matter is that the work that I contributed was valued enough to be asked to do it the next few times we worked together to defeat Tequatl. I would have never been able to do that kind of thing on my Guardian or my Warrior.

Engineers are one of the best auxiliary support classes in the game given our multi-purpose ability to contribute to #1-6 within the construction of one, singular build. With any kit focus (though Bomb Kit in my mind is best). We have the best combo field coverage and the most blast finishers of any class. Me and my guild leader have alone been all that was necessary to keep Jonez alive during the Temple of Grenth second phase. So many people complain that Temple of Balthazar is now too hard, but guess what? If you land all your blast finishers in Water fields as an Engineer, we contribute heavily to keeping the Pact alive, perhaps better than any other class can as an individual player.

I disagree with your assertions that jack of all trades classes will be phased out, and I can guarantee you that whenever they start creating instanced top-tier content, Engineers are going to be just as commonly ran in our guild runs as any other class. And we will not suffer for it.

1) but we aren’t talking about other games balance so really the reference to WoW, and FFXI has no place here.

2) this discussion is specific to dungeons, I agreed with you that engineer is good in open world pve, wvw, and spvp, the area I believe they are lacking is dungeons.

3) yes engineers do have a great assortment to fields, just none are specific to their class, (ex. with other profession a dungeon group can replace everything that an engineer could bring to the group. Can you say the same for the most extreme examples of [guardian, warrior and Mesmer?]) this is not to say we are useless in fact in pug dungeons we are great at picking up where our random group members cannot (or are not) providing different things for the group because we have that variety, its just in guild dungeons where the group is trying to min/max we wouldn’t be the first choice(my guess if we came along we would fill either the 4th or fifth slot).

4) we have the most blast finishers that is true, we have a lot of variety in this area but an ele can bring only 1 less blast finisher while providing fury as well as might through fire fields, not to mention LH 3rd auto attack is a blast finisher essentially on a 1 and a half second cooldown.

5) temple of grenth is open world PvE again not a dungeon, I have also managed to solo the legendary risen priest of grenth and duo the defend but that has nothing to do with dungeons.

edit: on the temple of Balthazar in straights it is pretty easy if you use npc given weapon not trying to tell you how to play but it is a tool that can be very useful in this event if you choose to use it.

coglin.1867:

So, Infamous Darkness, instead of quoting every single post of someone who disagrees with you and arguing it, what should the engineer be? Why should it be that way? How do you implement it?

it doesn’t necessarily have to be changed at all it just currently has nothing that is truly unique about it which is why I rate it in a low position for team dungeons.

but if you’d really like me to give an example this is the best I could come up with on the fly and of course it would need to be changed before implementation, but I’d go with something along the lines of a trait that (ex. grandmaster trait in tools, “off balance” whenever you knockdown, knockback, or blowout an enemy for 1 second that enemy takes an additional 15% damage)…I know its not the best idea and it only really helps damage but it was the best I could come up with at a moments notice [I say grandmaster in tools as they are trying to remove perma vigor so I assume that adrenal implant will get destroyed.]

+1 /15chars

no problem glad I could help

I will probably do p1 later today send me a tell and I’ll see if I can grab some guildies to walk you through

Phineas Poe.3018:

Infamous Darkness.3284:

what can engineer do that benefits the group that no other group members or as a full group without an engineer in the party can do?

Nothing. That is what makes it a “jack of all trades,” right? Our role coverage is better than any other class, but we’re not as effective at is as one class (i.e., Guardian) is at a specified role.

but see that is where our disagreement lies other professions can do things that no other profession can pull off, while engineer has access to many of the tools of other professions have and can use them pretty effectively they will never be able to close the gap especially in larger parties because it means everything engineer can do, can be done by another profession with an added bonus ability that the engineer wouldn’t possess, if this thread had been named dungeon solo usefulness I would’ve ranked engineer much higher as you are able to cover yourself in many of these areas where other professions wouldn’t have the same #/variety of options, but as the groups get bigger and bigger there is less need for a jack of all trades and more benefit to bringing along a class that specializes in each task that is needed to complete the encounter. [if this would’ve been a post about underwater dungeons I would’ve been completely on your side (I believe engis have highest possible underwater damage, and we can still use throw elixir U underwater where guardians cannot, I know that I can hit over 16k with the 1/4 cast scatter mines in HotW without rifle mod, on a 10~second cooldown)]

coglin.1867:

Phineas is correct. You do not post in terms of opinion or concept, you put all of your post in the form of definitive statements.

ah well my apologies then, I mean them in a way of concept, other then the examples that I give(the examples are meant to be statements), as they are there to back up the concept.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Infamous Darkness.3284:

here I thought we were debating the pros and cons of the most efficient dungeon group.

That’s what I thought too, but apparently you seem to be more focused on telling us how many people in your guild play Engineers as though that’s relevant. Unless you’re indicating that the low number of players speaks to something?

No it doesn’t speak to anything other than it was a response ellesee.8297, you also still haven’t responded to unique group buffs, what can engineer do that benefits the group that no other group members or as a full group without an engineer in the party can do?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Infamous Darkness.3284:

based on the post I just quoted above yours I believe my assumption was pretty accurate(also me and lunyboy are in the same guild and there are only 3 ppl who play engineer regularly in our guild including him and me).

So your guild speaks for the general perception of Engineers across the entire game? OK.

ok you completely took it out of context and didn’t even take the whole quote, anyways that quote was in reference to ellesee.8297: insulting words to lunyboy’s friend, which I assumed to be me given the post that I quoted just above ellesee.8297, and I was giving additional information to back up why I believed that to be the case, this was added incase ellesee.8297 hadn’t really meant any offense and try to explain the situation. So your perception of me, and people in my guild is to be taken as fact… and here I thought we were debating the pros and cons of the most efficient dungeon group not having an exercise into how to produce tainted or forged evidence.

edit: I also like how you avoided all of the part in that post that were my arguments and instead focused on what seems to be a personal attack.

lunyboy.8672:

I have 2k hours on my engineer, and run with Infamous. ^This guy’s got it right. Just because an engineer CAN do all those things across various builds and skills, doesn’t mean he can do that and output those mystical 8k auto attacks from the bomb kit.

Believe me. I’ve tried.

Building synergy with the rest of the group is easier for certain professions, the sooner we all agree on that and admit we are happier playing engineer than say, playing Guardian, the sooner we can all agree Engies need PvE buffs.

Period.

With an objective look at the profession, we could provide Anet devs unbiased feedback about “balance” and changes they make while trying to explain what we want out of the profession.

Like I said before, I typically don’t agree with Spoj about things, but despite what you may think about his posts, he has been politely disagreeing and countering the points made here without bias. And he is correct.

ellesee.8297:

firstly infamous darkness, i wasn’t talking about you unless it really was you which would explain why you got so defensive. nobody wants to hear a snooty lecture every time they log on. keep that in mind.

second you’re just listing everything every class can do. who is going to take a venomshare thief or a terrormancer into a nerdy, sweaty speedrun that unfortunately so many people here think is the only way to play this game?

based on the post I just quoted above yours I believe my assumption was pretty accurate(also me and lunyboy are in the same guild and there are only 3 ppl who play engineer regularly in our guild including him and me). I am not attempting to give a snooty lecture, OP asked for list of usefulness(in dungeons) as we (engineers) don’t have anything that is truly unique in group support, that is not to say engineer aren’t fun to play or that they aren’t good, I just don’t rank them highly on usefulness for dungeons. You also pointed out terrormancer and venomshare thieves which I left at the bottom with engineers lumping them all together because of their lack of unique group buffs.

personally I feel like we(engineers) are very useful as wvw roamers and in zergs, and we are also good in spvp but those are outside of the scope of this thread. I also think we are good in open world pve as we are very self sufficient.

What is the comparison of magical power between ancient races(forgotten, seer, mursaat, jotun, and dwarves) It seemed that seer and mursaat had the most magic power, is there an argument to dispute this? and how close were the most powerful of these ancient spell casters to being on even ground with the human gods or other powerful magical entities. I believe according to GW1 BMP that lazarus the dire along with 2 other mursaat + saul’s forces were able to push back the charr invasion. my guess would be that the most powerful of the mursaat such as lazarus the dire would be more powerful then say mad king thorn, between their spectral agony and ability to split into multiple aspects, and using spells from different disciplines. any ideas or sources one way or the other would be helpful and appreciated.

The reason I ranked engi so low and still do is that we don’t really bring anything that is specifically unique to the group,
warriors bring banners, empower allies, and shouts
guardian brings reliable reflects, group blocks through aegis, group protection, and strength in numbers
mesmers duplicate boons, have time warp and reliable reflects, and portals
Eles bring summoned weapons (ex. conjure Ice bow against graveling burrows in AC), also group protection through aura sharing and attuning to earth
Ranger brings spirits, reliable reflects and the spotter trait

while thieves(I suppose thieves have shared venoms), necros(have fear but so do warriors), and engis can do a ton of things but don’t have any one specific thing that only our class can do

Note: reliable reflects I didn’t count engineer for reliable reflects because 1/2 the time our throw elixir U is a smoke wall, which absorbs projectiles but doesn’t reflect them, in the same way I didn’t include warriors shield trait that reflects or our shield 4 that reflects because it is only personal (the whole group doesn’t receive benefit from it)

Edit: forgot thief and Mesmer can provide group vigor

ellesee.8297:

it’s evident some nerds just know how to suck the fun out of everything. can we just agree that whiners join the zerk heavies only party and everyone else just enjoy the game? i recall this one time i was doing a guild fractal 48 run and i was running a melee tool kit build because pve so why not. someone had to leave and then i guess we invited lunyboy’s buddy because he was one of these guys that likes telling everybody how to play their class. hey why aren’t you going grenades? hey run zerk armor because here is some math. god i could just hear that nasally voice and that nyah after everything he said.

I appreciate the name calling, the unwillingness to even put forward my name “lunyboy’s buddy” and a plethora of unfounded assumptions to insult me when I was answering a the question posed by the OP, I gave reasons why I believe that those other classes are better for dungeons and showed different ways in which that was the case. instead of debating my arguments you decided name calling was the most efficient route…personally I pug a lot of dungeons, I enjoy doing dungeons this way, I am also incredibly against kicking people from a dungeon for example I’ve taken level 22s through AC exp and first time fractalers through fractals 30, without telling them how to play in the slightest, in fact I don’t believe I have ever told anyone how to play their class I may ask why they are doing something in a certain way but I approach it as an opportunity to learn something I may have overlooked rather than assuming they are wrong before they even answer.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It is unknown what the status of Eagle, Ox, and Wolverine are. They simply have not been heard of since, and unlike Owl there’s been no confirmation of living or death by a havroun – I’m guessing there was no havroun for those spirits at the time of Jormag’s rise.

I would say the Spirits of the Wild are far superior to either Thorn. They are guardian spirits of entire races and supposedly every race has such a Spirit of the Wild. Kill a member of their species, and the spirits feel it.

We don’t know if they did damage to Jormag, though Asgeir did take out his tooth. He hasn’t moved south because what’s the rush? He can outlive any race on Tyria with ease and has only been awake for 150 years. What’s 150 years for someone who’s been living for at least 20,000 years if Varra Skylark is to be believed? Though per Edge of Destiny and Frostgorge Sound he is now pushing south – it’s my belief that all the Elder Dragons spend some time eating and building up a sizable force – little different than eating breakfast and getting dressed in the morning for us – before going on their world-devouring rampages. Gotta rebuild the strength you lost when you were sleeping and woke up, after all. Especially when you waking up shatters the largest known mountain range.

Eagle we were told battled with Jormag during an interview. Why it doesn’t have a statue at Lost Spriits’ Hallow is unknown, same for why Gamal doesn’t mention it. Probably an oversight either in the interview or design or a change between the interview and design that didn’t make it into the game (but we cannot be certain either way).

Side note: Why’d you leave the lore guild?

Thank you very informative, and I should rejoin the lore guild the reason for me leaving was making a new guild to bank my ever increasing amount of piles of putrid essence…, might be a bit before I can rejoin though depending if the Halloween recipes go down after Nov.11 or not if they do I’ll buy them up if not I will need the extra storage (100~more stacks of putrid essence)

when I used to use the spyhunter virus scanner thing it gave me difficulties accessing parts of the TP could it be something with your virus scanner?

ah didn’t realize you were talking about the start of the game lol I shouldn’t have been skimming, TY for the correction.

coglin.1867:

lunyboy.8672:

The point trying to be made is, other professions have access to these various utilities easier without having an engineer in the party.

Okay, Let us put it to the test. Take the 6 areas of group benefit everyone has focused on and tell us how other professions do it better.

1. Area Might
2. Vulnerability
3. Projectile walls/reflects
4. Condition removal
5. Stability
6. Area Stealth (for skipping)

I think we can all agree that you can skip #6 though. That one is kind of no contest.

I notice you still left out #7 group fury

I have already shown you where I think other professions can do each one better the only one engineers have is #2 vulnerability, and debatably group condition removal which upon further investigation I think is off from guardian with purging flames and save yourselves, I don’t know if pure of voice stacks with soldier runes for 2 conditions removed per shout, cleansing flame, ray of judgement, purifiying blast, bow of truth, or possibly necros with putrid mark, well of power and plague signet(personally think engis might be better then necros on this one but debateable).

I still don’t understand how you see toss elixir b as anywhere near the stability a guardian can put out for example toss elixir B with 30 points in tools and 100% boon duration would give something like 8 seconds of stability on a 21~ second recharge possibly 2 extra seconds from rumble while guardians have under similar situation stand your ground 10 seconds of stability on a 25 second recharge, and hallowed ground(I could be wrong about how this skill would work with 100% boon duration and master of consecrations, if so please correct me) 24 seconds of stability on a 64 second recharge meaning a guardian could have a 77.5% uptime on stability with 44 seconds of unstopped stability while engineer at best has about 50% stability uptime with 10 seconds of uninterrupted stability

Singer.8740:

“Id have to say your list here is quite off for a few reasons
1) ele if using fiery rush from FGS #4 without a target and FGS#3 plus LH when on cooldown they will likely be the highest dps in your party by quite a margin, not to mention their ability to stack 25 might for the group and perma fury I think they deserve #1or 2 spot.”

so you think that an ability on a 3 min cooldown jumps you to number one DPS meter and that you can stack might gives you more utility than the guy who does that passive while stacking vuln, cleansing, healing, DPSing, CCing and carrying stealth……you under stand there is a reason warrior is no 1 on the majority of the player base list and the ele and engie comparison is laughable at best. Speeking of warrior this brings me to my next point.

“2) warrior brings quite a lot of utility to the group actually using GS,A/M banners and able to stack somewhere between 18-22stacks of vulnerability on their own for a short time, also able to create fire fields(wouldn’t suggest it but still there and able to blast them), also if using soldier runes can cleanse about the same number of conditions as the engineer (with a different build from the one above that would be using banners and “on my mark”) also can take trait empower allies for more power for the group”

… i dont even know were to start wiht this one. what your saying is a warrior that brings a banner is UTILITY…thats just DPS min/max i believe you are a bit confused about the meaning of utility. Now Shout cleanse THAT is utility. Shame only idiots would give up a set of Ruby orbs/ Divinity runes/ insert power rune here >< for them outside WvW. and ye three warriors can get get 18 to 22 stacks of vuln for a short time on a single target. why/ how your comparing that to ONE engies aoe vuln stacking is beyond me.

point three:
“3) I feel that you are selling rangers a bit short as they can provide ok vunerability, stone spirit for protection, frost spirit for extra damage, spirit of nature for a group res, and I believe the longest lasting water field through their healing spring, and condition cleanse, they can also bring might and fury stacking to the party through their pets and warhorn. "

Spirits and spotter trait as before. water field overwrites fire field and only supplies regen and cleanse unless blasted so is hence disqualified as a sound choice. you were joking about the might stacking right….

“5) thieves can also provide some good defiant removal(if that’s what you want), can also provide, can give party members might fury swiftness and vigor (through steal skill)” Number of bosses were boon steal is important…….Champ karka………champ karka…….and……champ karka. stick to the stabby stabby thank you.

1) first your #1 point when traited elemental conjures have 25 charges and each one lasts a min, so you could potentially summon one use all of its charges and then pick up the second one 1 second before it disappears for a 66%~ uptime on FGS, and second I included other conjures in there such as the LH for just those times when you don’t have a FGS available.

2) you go on to say warrior banners aren’t utility, while two are for damage(3 if you count the elite) 2 are for utility and defense, extra healing power, boon duration, vitality and toughness. second 1 warrior by itself can get up to 22 stacks of vulnerability as a said for a short time here you go here is the rotation (A/M cyclone axe,crushing blow, on my mark, and then back to cyclone axe as soon as its off cooldown 4+4+10+4=22stacks of vunerability)

3) no I was not joking about the might stacking sure they aren’t the best at it but here are some ways they can stack might, pet juvenille jungle stalker, war horn 5 if in a fire field it is 4 stacks of might. meaning that they could provide 9 stacks of might for the group

4[I think])once you have 25 stacks of might it can be nice to blast the water field for extra group healing which is utility

5)just because you would like thieves to stick to the “stabby stabby” doesn’t mean they don’t have other uses to the group like boon stealing for say the golem in CoE removing retaliation, protection, regeneration, I don’t remember its 4th buff. and also easy access to blast finishers through their shortbow 2 skill

Please fully read and understand the post before defaming it as invalid

Yalora Istairiea.6287:

Redenaz.8631:

Wanze.8410:

Yalora Istairiea.6287:

Gold can come into the game in 2 ways

1. Thru normal progression of the game. This would be an infinite supply of constantly stamped coin as everyone is making money if they do almost anything out in the open world
2. Buying Gems with Cash and converting to gold

No. 2 is wrong because the gold you get for your gems was put up there by a player that earned it doing No. 1.

If you could find a source for that, it would be appreciated, because while it seems the intuitive assumption, the gem exchange just isn’t a symmetrical player-to-player market like most of the TP is. For the easiest example of this in action, imagine at the start of the game, when the first player tries to buy gold/gems. There’s no way to put up an order for them for someone else to fill, so they had to have their purchase filled from the imaginary coffers of the Black Lion Trading Company itself. While currency exchanges made do have an effect on the rate of exchange, it’s not a one-to-one exchange.

I would think that Redenaz would be correct.

• On day one, minute one, you could have gold either thru your first minute of adventuring or paying cash for gems and trading for gold. As gold exists in a hypothetically infinite supply.
• Gems on the other hand at that moment in time could Only exist thru cash purchases as there was no way to Earn Gems in the game.

by a small technicality you are wrong on your second point gems can be earned in game through achievement chests, I believe at a rate of 400gems per 5000 achievement points, not great but still and option.

hi I rarely ever play a Mesmer in GW2 but I used to play one a lot in GW1 and thought some may like the idea of changing mimic to what Arcane Larceny was in GW1, have it say steal one utility skill from targeted enemy targeted enemy loses said utility for 25 seconds, you can use the utility you stole from them as many times as it recharges in that period(25seconds), (could be fun just may run into problems if say stealing a kit from an engineer or a summoned weapon from an ele)

not to rain on your parade as I would really like the idea of a 1v1 death match or team death match but have you considered dropping down to a much lower tier in wvw and trying that out? its not perfect but it may help you find more roaming/1v1 fights

I really hope you are joking…

These are the 4 spirits that tried to hold Jormag back and give the norn time to escape, owl is known to have been eaten by Jormag, but what about the other three have they managed to keep the fight going to this day? have they been wounded and are resting to try to regain their strength and rejoin the fight? how would the magic of these spirits compare to say mad king thorn/bloody prince? did they do any damage to Jormag, and if not why hasn’t Jormag moved further south, is he just slowly eating the magical artifacts in its location and moving only to find new food sources. Did eagle stay behind to battle Jormag as well, because it doesn’t have a statue in Lost Spirits’ Hallow, and Gamal doesn’t mention that spirit?

“very special enemy, hidden deep in the heart of the Tower of Nightmares.” to get one of the minis we have to kill this enemy, will it be a new world event?
Is it the creature that is behind scarlet in the preview picture?
will we see more of these creatures in other parts of the game as the story moves on?

hmm personally I consider arah(longer but easier) to be easier than CoE, but to each their own I suppose. you also have sold the eles a bit short I think, FGS #4(into a wall) ftw.

ellesee.8297:

god the class elitism is for kittening kids. all classes perform well in dungeons. if you don’t agree then stick to your speedclear groups. or join my party and go on a tirade about how zerk armor is superior to everything so i can block you. my list is getting pretty big and my groups less kitteny.

no we were specifically answering the question asked by the OP they wanted to know the most to least useful professions in a dungeon so we laid them out pointing out the features of each one that make them better for certain situations or reasons. I don’t know where you are getting this class elitism from, I main an engineer and I ranked it second to last because although it is a jack of all trades/Swiss army knife, it only excels in a few areas

The charr hidden pistol can be nice as it provides an extra evade and the toolbelt skill for it is basically a theif unload. in all honesty you are probably best to go with asura they have some fairly good utilities such as radiation field and the advantage of their small size (just don’t let any of my guildies know that I said that).

one of the things that makes lightning hammer good is, every 3rd hit with your auto attack is a blast finisher and a blind+ it is also some solid dps, to your other point I agree every class is replaceable, and you can do content with really any composition, this is why I say that engineer is good for pugs because it can be a jack of all trades, but in an organized run we fall a bit short and would probably just take the last spot. I still run an engineer as my main for basically all content as I find it the most fun to play (I also pug alot).

because the engineer is one class and a great class as it can provide all of these things, the difference comes in that you have 5 party members and each of these can provide a piece to your 6 steps without sacrificing as much as an engineer would, also I think you should add fury in as a number 7 which engineers aren’t so good at giving to party members, also we cant really do all of those things at once. reflections (elixir U and shield 4), condition removal (elixir gun, healing turret, thrown elixirs) might/invisibility (landmine, bombkit, thumper turret, shield 4, healing turret), vulnerability (utility goggles, bomb kit, grenade kit) Stability (elixir B, thumper turret[I guess], Elixir X for yourself), we would have to have 9 utility slots to pull all of these off at their best, also our projectile reflection is not reliable it has bugs one elixir u when thrown on uneven ground often falls through the world gaining no effect and it also has a 50% chance of being a smoke wall which will stop projectiles rather than reflect them which is a huge difference.

edited: put are where it was supposed to say our

Phineas Poe.3018:

Just wanted to comment on a few things.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

1) ele if using fiery rush from FGS #4 without a target and FGS#3 plus LH when on cooldown they will likely be the highest dps in your party by quite a margin, not to mention their ability to stack 25 might for the group and perma fury I think they deserve #1or 2 spot.

Don’t forget to mention that Staff Elementalists have probably the best fire field right now with Lava Font taking Persistent Flames. They are definitely the best when it comes to stacking Might right now.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

2) warrior brings quite a lot of utility to the group actually using GS,A/M banners and able to stack somewhere between 18-22stacks of vulnerability on their own for a short time, also able to create fire fields(wouldn’t suggest it but still there and able to blast them), also if using soldier runes can cleanse about the same number of conditions as the engineer (with a different build from the one above that would be using banners and “on my mark”) also can take trait empower allies for more power for the group

Warriors cannot cleanse as many conditions as Engineers can. With any build. Fumigate removes up to 5 conditions on allies you hit with it. With Fireforged Trigger, it has a 10 second cooldown. Nothing a Warrior has can match that frequency, and that’s not taking Super Elixir or the Healing Turret yet into the equation.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

3) I feel that you are selling rangers a bit short as they can provide ok vunerability, stone spirit for protection, frost spirit for extra damage, spirit of nature for a group res, and I believe the longest lasting water field through their healing spring, and condition cleanse, they can also bring might and fury stacking to the party through their pets and warhorn.

Don’t forget Spotter. Re: Healing Spring, it’s very good. But the problem is that Rangers have like 2 Blast finishers across the entire class—one of which is on a specific pet.

What then results is a situation in which no one has their blast finishers available because they used them all to stack Might for the group. It’s a really great skill in WvW, and on paper it’s fantastic in PvE—but actual application varies in effectiveness within dungeons.

you are right I did forget fumigate, I was thinking soldier rune warrior with 3 shouts can remove 4 conditions, (I always forget fumigate since it doesn’t remove your own conditions[it does make a very nice combination with a guardian using save yourselves]
but no I didn’t forget the spotter traits for the ranger I was just trying to add to the list singer already had so I tried not to repeat anything he/she put down (though I did remention the spirits since I felt they were selling them short)

Singer.8740:

Yup, there just not seeing the big picture, not to mention we already had a link with pictures to ONE of many dungeon builds that supply all this versatility and utility and crushes the DPS meters as well. Shame the naysayer’s ether ignore the facts of one and use the other as validation or the other way around, or they just flat out claim ignorance. its quite simple really.

1. War= DPS min max (if you have 3) but no utility.
2. guard= DPS if with the above warriors, supplies might, cleansing reflect walls and other usefull dungeon supprot mechanics.
3. Engineer= Self sufficient DPS . Brings might and vuln stacking, heals, stealth, cleansing, reflect walls and various other Dungeon support mechanics.
4. Ele= tool box. lightning hammer, might stacking, water fields.
5. Mesmer= tool box. time warp. reflects, pulls. situational DPS (IF phantasms can live.)
6. ranger = yet again tool box. spirits. spotter trait.
7. Thief= single target DPS, stealth.
8. Necro= vuln stack, blind.

Id have to say your list here is quite off for a few reasons
1) ele if using fiery rush from FGS #4 without a target and FGS#3 plus LH when on cooldown they will likely be the highest dps in your party by quite a margin, not to mention their ability to stack 25 might for the group and perma fury I think they deserve #1or 2 spot.
2) warrior brings quite a lot of utility to the group actually using GS,A/M banners and able to stack somewhere between 18-22stacks of vulnerability on their own for a short time, also able to create fire fields(wouldn’t suggest it but still there and able to blast them), also if using soldier runes can cleanse about the same number of conditions as the engineer (with a different build from the one above that would be using banners and “on my mark”) also can take trait empower allies for more power for the group
3) I feel that you are selling rangers a bit short as they can provide ok vunerability, stone spirit for protection, frost spirit for extra damage, spirit of nature for a group res, and I believe the longest lasting water field through their healing spring, and condition cleanse, they can also bring might and fury stacking to the party through their pets and warhorn.
4) Mesmers can also provide a decent amount of vulnerability, and condition removal
5) thieves can also provide some good defiant removal(if that’s what you want), can also provide, can give party members might fury swiftness and vigor (through steal skill)

Phineas Poe.3018:

Just taking a moment to re-read this entire thread, I think a lot of you need to stop thinking numerically and begin thinking conceptually. You guys toss out a bunch of numbers comparing DPS roles amongst all classes. Lost in all this noise, however, is that you need to have your party constructed a certain way to get that kind of output.

There are six things you ideally want access to in group situations:

1. Area Might
2. Vulnerability
3. Projectile walls/reflects
4. Condition removal
5. Stability
6. Area Stealth (for skipping)

You guys are very much focused on #1 and #2. And for good reason. 25 Vuln/25 Might is what makes a good group a great group. But 25 Vuln and 25 Might against Fire Shaman alone doesn’t make a good fractal group.

You guys are forgetting about #3-6—all of which Engineers can offer, including both #1 and #2. How many classes can actually say that? Where are the Warrior Smoke fields? Can they match the condition removal abilities of Engineers? What about Area Healing? Where are the Water fields in the Axe/Mace + Greatsword combo? Where is their AoE projectile wall? You want to compare Engineers purely on the basis of #1 and #2 and claim that Warriors outperform us, but the fact of the matter is that they very much need the help of #3-6 to stay alive and successfully complete/skip content in dungeons and fractals.

So if you want to talk about dungeon usefulness in Guild Wars 2, talk about dungeon usefulness. Talk about how a 30 Alchemy Engineer matches the Stability management of Stand Your Ground with Toss Elixir B. Talk about how a Bomb Kit Engineer filling their bar with Blast finishers offers significantly more AoE stealth than Mass Invisibility—and on a third of the cooldown!

Talk about how our Elixir Gun, when built around it, can cleanse—on average—1 condition every 2 seconds. If you want to judge the Engineer’s strengths purely on the merits of its damage output, then keep doing it.

Just understand that you’re doing yourself and this community a disservice, because you guys are looking at this completely wrong. Mesmers and Guardians are not a part of the meta because of #1 or #2. Surely they contribute, but they are popular because of their usefulness in #3-6. And any group that has all six of these “ideal” contributions amongst all five members of the group will—if played by satisfactory players—will cruise through PvE content. The individual DPS contributions of each party member are pretty irrelevant at that point. But hey, if you want to argue over who does 10K damage and who does 9K, be my guest.

Just my two cents.

you see where people are arguing the most with you isn’t that engineer is a jack of all trades we all know this it is just they are a master of one maybe two
1) might stacking they can do this partially I believe you can get up to 15 stacks alone for the whole group
2) vulnerability the engineers bread and butter with steel packed powder
3) Projectile reflection we aren’t very reliable we have throw elixir U but that can end up being negates incoming projectiles rather than reflects them, we also have shield 4 but it is only a personal projectile reflection
4) condition removal, I would say we are ok with this from heal turret, or if you trait into cleansing formula 409 that you can be pretty decent
5) Stability ok elixir b can be good.
6) area stealth through smoke fields and blast finisher

classes that are better at these things then us
1) s/d eles can provide 25 stacks of might plus permanent fury for the group
2) (think engineer is the best here)
3) Mesmer can keep projectile reflections up all the time and guardians reflections are more reliable.
4) also an area that engineers can be good in just that yet again mesmers and guardians can do it a bit better (guardian soldier runes and shouts, Mesmer null field)
5) guardians have us beat here to through stand your ground and hallowed ground
6) thieves have us beat here their shadow refuge can be dropped on the move while our stealth cannot

This is not to say we are useless in dungeons just that for an optimal setup we probably aren’t the best to take along, my guess for an optimal dungeon setup would have been 2 eles, 1 warrior (banners), 1 Mesmer, and one open spot depending on the dungeon may want a guard for prot, extra reflects, and stability, or a ranger for their spotter trait vulnerability and frost spirit (can also do protection through earth spirit thing), theif for more continuous stealth then the Mesmer can provide, or us the engineer for vulnerability application.

all of this being said I think we great for pug dungeons because these things wont be coordinated and as an engineer (jack of all trades) we can help in many areas.

will
Firearms XI – Modified Ammunition. This trait now works regardless of equipped weapon. work while kits are are equipped because if not I think this will probably go as a still mostly unused trait.

I think this one could become too powerful in wvw and possibly pve.
Inventions XI – Elixir Infused bombs. Increased healing scaling by 50%.

Very disappointed in this change for how it will damage the invigorating speed trait, dropping it to 7-8 seconds would be fine but droping its effective usefulness by essentially 50% seems a bit much.
Tools VI – Speedy Kits. Increased Swiftness duration to 10s. This effect can now only trigger once every 10 seconds.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Infamous Darkness.3284:

it would also be best to use these 2 kits bomb kit and grenade kit in rotation (grenade barrage, grenade 2, grenade 4,bomb 2,) something like that while using your other utility as the thumper turret(its 3 blast finisher) meaning you can drop BoB, fire bomb, thumper turret, overcharge it, detonate it, and then use its toolbelt skill rumble. for some easy 12 might stacks for the group and then continue with your rotation (dropping bomb 1 skill when all of those other abilities are on cooldown.) you can also get more blast finishers through shield 4 healing turret and supply crate while using the same build (I just have a hard time get off more than 5 blast finisher in the fire field from bomb 2)

Why Thumper Turret? It has a gigantic cooldown.

Even if it offers 2 blast finishers in one slot, you can fit in 3 Throw Mines before Thumper Turret comes off cooldown. And Mine Field actually benefits from Explosive Powder.

well it is actually 3 blast finishers in one slot so you can easily get them all off in one fire field (1st blast finisher from the overcharge, 2nd from the detonation of the turret, and 3rd from its toolbelt skill rumble) and I personally prefer the 3 blast finisher at once in combination to stack the might quickly to quickly end the encounter and move on.

Yes you do have it wrong actually I wasn’t taking on this genders in video games argument.
That is why I made specific that single area that you are against extremists and that they are morons, my point was no not all extremists are morons sometimes they are very good, very intelligent people and their ideas eventually become common belief, but during their own times their ideas may be considered extreme/radical.

Aphix.9846:

Mjolnir or other expensive exotics do not require map completion, badges, dungeon tokens etc. You’re argument is incredibly dumb.
Legendaries should be ‘special’, stat-swapping is good enough, wouldn’t say no to sigil-swapping.

my first example that was quote where the legendary would’ve been bought directly off the trading post when it would be 1000g rather than 950g(crafted) is not dumb at all as it would not require any of those things if bought off the TP just the 1000g which happens to be just 180g~ more than the price would be to craft Mjolnir. please fully read the comparison before calling it dumb as by not reading correctly you will only make yourself look the fool rather than what you are trying to ridicule.