Guild Wars 2

ronpierce.2760:

Much of what I said actually benefits thief staying power…. Almost all of it, actually. I did very little that would make you much easier to kill. Unless you mean trading some of the easy “get out of jail, free” cards for better combat presence. Yeah, I prefer thieves become a better combat class and have to think and plan their escapes a bit better. I’m not going to cover that idea up. Camping stealth is a design I absolutely do not support and in fact, I think I would play thief more often with a style similar to the suggested, which benefits using stealth efficiently rather than just to reset a fight you screwed up on.

You’re only talking about the traits that are still kind of useful and ignore the rest.
I meant “all” of you – I’m not really in the mood to have people around who know little to nothing about thief yet think they can “repair” the class.
No offense, but really, roll a thief and see what they need. Go S/D if you despise stealth. I really mean it in a respectful way, just like the following:

My proposal to make Necro better would be: Dodge – honestly, I’ve never seen a necro dodge.

Can you guys somehow take this to another forum as you don’t seem to have the slightest idea about thieves yet think you know how the class should be nerfed so you guys can kill it faster.

Zero Day.2594:

Oh lighten up, here are badges for the both of you….

Thanks, one reason less to rifle through Cynz’ pockets…

Thank you, Zero, I guess Cynz and I will kind of share one as we see each other frequently.

ArchonWing.9480:

You knock down a wall and blow up the ACs then walk up and take the tower without even a finger lifted against you, because the ACs were the only reason anyone was “defending” at all.

Likely because this was their only chance – we killed 12 Omegas and 15 guys in Lords with 10 the other day, but we couldn’t have done it without cannons. There is some reason behind siege and ACs are pretty weak overall in my opinion. So I don’t really get why you have problems with them.And to be honest; No matter whether you use rams or trebs/catas – that phase of a fight doesn’t become more exciting just because you use different siege.

Edit: We had no ACs up.

T raw.4658:

It would help ALL thieves and that’s the goal.

Think.

T raw.4658:

Seriously if we had our previous survivability along with the current power creep most of us would be pretty happy. Granted we’d still be UP but the gap would be much closer/manageable.

Yes please, here please!
But that would primarily help D/D thieves and they will still be few, because CnD just can’t be landed because every class has got invulnerable.
But it would be great.

Edit: Grammar

When I first wrote in this thread (3 weeks ago) I have been at 9450 killed yaks. I’m now at 9900. Granted I did some camp capping marathons to adjust my mouse settings.
My point still stands: Ultimate Dominator is a zerg runner title (nothing wrong with that), Yakslapper should be a roaming title.
It would be great when the amount of stuff which has to be killed reflected both playstyles as Ultimate Dominator is comparatively high.
There are 12 other titles, make the requirements for them low to keep new players.
(Sorry but yakslapper is in fact the only title I ever cared about).

On the plus side: The current version of thief made me to a siege thrower – good for the economy as I need to buy more ballis.

Got 3 keys as a drop after the patch. Don’t ask me how many chests, got a few more than usual in 80 zones though.

apharma.3741:

Yeah poor thieves, if only they had gap closers and openers, the best mobility in the game, one of the highest vigor up times, lots of blinds, on dodge effects to CC, remove conditions, heal etc being added.

I think daredevil will certainly open up a lot of non stealth builds for thief which is exactly what a lot of thieves have been asking for.

Yeah, non stealth builds are: Staff maybe and S/D. So the traditional thief still will be dead
But that is what a lot of people have been asking for (yes, I don’t care anymore).

Offair.2563:

Instead of reducing stealth they will add more and more and more..

They add skills that reveal but didn’t keep in mind that the basically only way for a thief to survive is to stealth (not to hide but because all survival traits are tied to it) – so what they are currently doing is removing thief from the game.

Edit: Very poor grammar.

Doug Whisper.2465:

One solution to address the problem here is to add a rune set which add vitality, reduce condition duration and shout “Sic ‘Em” on hit.

That sounds like something anet would do.

I mean the same, pope – but I don’t think that upping the damage would help us, anet has to either nerf the damage output in general, or buff our armor. And if they opt for the latter, then a buff to thief damage would be appreciated.

So basically we mean the same.

Trying to not edit this post.

Before I edit it a third time:

We had a power creep with the june 23th patch. Not sure if they nerfed some of that, I think they did, but our health and defense has gotten really low, so if you increase the damage of this and that the game would become even more inbalanced. So IMO they should’ve never brought the patch to live as it is, they should’ve nerfed beforehand as it was clear that some sort of power creep would happen.

Edit (I KNOW!) : With this I mean all classes in game, just that some can survive it better, because of their traits mostly.

Isn’t that already the case? you get a 100% crit when you hit from stealth. ..
If you have Hidden Killer that is.

Edit²: That is the problem: They have to nerf other classes, not just for thiefs’ sake.

babazhook.6805:

Oh you can be both. I play a mix of power conditon and hybrid on my thieves.

I don’t want to – I thought I made that clear =)

babazhook.6805:

well i was playing d/d thief beta using the DD line and it worked pretty good. yes it was a condition build……

Well, it worked for me in that particular situation as well (I hope the devs don’t see it as a proof to further nerf thief) – just that I found the conversation rather funny. I was lucky to get that necro and I have quite a bit experience, it isn’t my class that did that.

Edit: I have no intention to go DD actually. I’m a power thief (power person, I like huge numbers) and the DD line wasn’t appealing to me as a D/D thief.

babazhook.6805:

Thieves will be the class that people who want to learn to play select :)

Not sure about that ;)

So a quick update how the game is running for me:

Each time there’s a beta weekend going on I shouldn’t be playing wvw as the lags are really nasty.
Apart from that; The usual lags seem to have gotten better but what I noticed lately (past 2-3 days, maybe longer) that I now have a different kind of lags, before the enemies “teleported”, now I can’t see AoE, meaning I’m already hit and a few seconds after that a red circle appears. Maybe that applies to every attack, but I noticed it especially with AoE fields.

I mean that is different from ele
X: “How do I play ele?”
Y: “Faceroll your keyboard and call it skill”

You’re right, just that I was WTF when reading the OP :D
And truth being told: A lot if not most of the classes are faceroll right now, Mesmer isn’t, Mesmer is noseroll!

Zero Day.2594:

But they do test it out on the same golems…
If that counts…

You’re right, and golems have no condi remove – so it’s just fair to give thieves none as well.

But honestly, if you look at all the passive kitten applied to nearly every class – it really makes you wonder if they talked/thought this through.
Basically everybody is invincible – how should a pvp environement work with that?

babazhook.6805:

Part of the issue is of course the seeming lack of communication between the DEVS responsible for each class. Class XXX lacks condition removal so lets give it more. meanwhile on class YYY “lets give this guy a skill that inhibits condition removal on class XXX”. Class XXX is now further behind then before.

+1

It really looks as if they didn’t talk to each other at all.

Cynz.9437:

Petoox.6570:

No, 1 month and like 4 days.

she ment it has been 3 months since spec build aka when devs decided thieves should be a pet and not a class

I did – should’ve written “It’s been three months”.

It’s three months. That’s quite a while.
I am not interested in S/D, D/P or staff, so I don’t have much hope that things will become better for me. And the flood of reveal traits doesn’t help as well.
Also, a lot of the classes/builds are currently OP, so anet would’ve to nerf a lot of that, I don’t think this is going to happen as a lot of people would be very upset. So, whatever they do, I don’t see how any of it would help thief as nothing of the typical thief core mechanics could help against this power, condition and mindless creep.

Edit: For those digging D/P, staff or S/D though – things likely will become better for you – somewhen in the future. Probably.

Cyninja.2954:

No you can’t. That’s what the entire nerf argument is about. For the purpose of getting the key with the personal story level 10 quest line, you CAN’T create multiple characters because you are now limited to 1 key per account per week.

I was referring to map completion – sorry if I didn’t make myself clear.

You can create multiple characters. Was just trying to show you guys that the limitation to PS lvl 10 story doesn’tmean the end of the world.

Yeah, you should also kill stuff in pvp – I have no idea whether or not keys drop there but they do in PvE and wvw – and you had to do some pve to get your char to lvl 10/the story. Don’t get your “HEART OF THE MIST” point, sorry – did you do the personal story while waiting for a match to start?
A good way to make tomes useful is to indirectly sell your spirit shards by turning T5 into T6 mats, by making superior siege (you can buy usual siege and all stuff on the TP) and more stuff one can probably find out with google.

The keys dropped, meaning I got them when I killed mobs which was really rare and which should now be increased – the point of this thread.

You can still get keys by doing higher personal stories, you can still get them by doing map completion.

I’ve dropped 5 BL keys so far, since I’m playing. One in last years Halloween Labyrinth, one from an ambient turned halloween creature, one from an enemy in wvw, one from a risen spider, one from a destroyer. Spider was the night before the patch, destroyer yesterday and my friend dropped one half an hour later too- didn’t ask him what he killed, though.

And since I despise the personal story at least since unlocking traits I don’t feel too bad for those who did that over and over. GO OUT AND KILL STUFF!

Fat Disgrace.4275:

May be d/d will become better once d/d is out dd/sa/trickery ?

No, I want to backstab and I want a line which applies to me as a solo roamer and I want a chance to remove all condis without having to spec into 3 defensive lines.
To make things short: I want my old SA back. (with CiS in major, please)

And yeah, I have no hope for that.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Any dps thief hit in stealth got hit hard, not only you with SA lol. This pretty much shows why you think other builds are better than yours, I met few people with this mentality and there is just no point in giving facts.

I was comparing old and new SA – new SA has got 25% less damage (received) while stealthed- old hadn’t.

Should I tell you more about thief facts? Or are you good?

Yeah, when I complained about the design of mesmers in wvw earlier a mesmer said he was fine with the design of his class. The extra stealth would give him more time to tag his opponent (he obviously doesn’t need stealth for anything else).

So I guess everybody but thieves are completely fine with anti-stealth-skills.

Sorry, but these skills and traits make my blood boil ;)

How about just removing the reveal traits as they’re stupid anyway, no matter from what perspective you look at it:
Engi: “I could use this trait which would help me against all condi builds, or I could use this trait which would help me against mesmers, partly as they have so many other mechanics than stealth, and against thieves”

Stupid game design. Period. I don’t get why anet continues with this stuff, they could’ve left sic em and googles as a stupid little gimmick and realize their mistake, but no..

Just wanted to say: D/D is suicidal in wvw – because you guys claim it’s “the best weaponset” and “anything goes in wvw” – no – it doesn’t

Edit (one post without edit would be so great – in my next life probably) :

You can however build full offensive and hope that your opponent doesn’t add active invulnerability to his already passively applied ones.
Or you can outskill them.

Edit²: Allthough both means to outskill them.
So let’s put it like this: “D/D is fine if you outskill all your opponents”.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

If you run a less efficient setup, you’re going to have more problems. That’s just the way it is, with any profession in the game. You chose to run d/d, so you accepted the limitations of the weapon set. I don’t like the lack of options that plague so many professions, but I still have to live with them.

With the difference that any class still can beat thief without equipping sic em etc. A thief has to play the "one and only weaponset " to have a chance – no argument pro these “skills”.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

And that’s why I run d/p pretty much everywhere…shadow shot gets you out of AoE fast and blinds your target, and headshot can interrupt nasty skills like meteor shower. Until they fix the /d part of d/d, it just isn’t as competitive against other players.

So?

Alright, one day gunnars will be against piken – I’ll send you some trebs then

Jizmak.1489:

Funny… i been doing it from the ground outside of SM for over 2 years. But w/e. Just sharing info, no biggie to me.

If you build outside trebs then you can take out 3d floor trebs direction QL, not sure if you can also get klov and durios side out with that – but I’m really sure that you can’t get either of them out with an outside balli. You might be able to get a 3d floor treb out which is facing red keep with a balli, or even treb build on the hill between red keep and SM – but no one ever builds a treb there, I think.
AC outside SM to get the treb facing QL out was the easiest and fastest way – you need a lot of people to get a treb up.

Edit: I might be wrong, yes – it’s really hard to experiment with siege around SM

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Except most of that is exaggerated. I play thief often; I know what sic em (for example) does, and it isn’t to the extent of shutting you down completely.

It is.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

At worst, you blind, LoS and reset the fight.

D/D thief, no blind on my weapon set – I might also be out of initative.

Edit: And blind doesn’t save me from aoe which can be better thrown into my direction when knowing my position.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

The thing is, a thief’s time is very valuable. You should not be getting into fair fights as a thief. Yes, you can win them…but it’s a waste of time. Better to find a fair fight and make it an unfair fight via your arrival. That way, you get more kills more quickly, and when you cap the point your teammate there can defend it while you continue to roam. Daredevil will be different: an on-point fighter with evades instead of stealth as the primary defensive mechanic.

I’m a wvw player, I don’t care about pvp or the mechanics in pvp (no offense to pvp players – you know what I mean) – I really want to have a fair chance in a 1 vs 1 – reveal is destroying a good part of that – we already discussed this multiple times and in fact you can compare it to the OP – reveal really is bad.

Eirdyne.9843:

- 100%ing WvW requires transferring to another server at least once

You don’t need 100% wvw map completion and you could always do it without transferring.

Eirdyne.9843:

- Farming Karma requires a server doing a good edge of the Mists map

Teq gives 15k karma each time, you can do it multiple times on different toons a day. Even once a day should be good for a casual player.

Eirdyne.9843:

- It takes around 600 gold to make Ascended Armor, but you can only expect to average 5 gold a day from dungeons unless the Meta-Babies groups are actually competent today: highly unlikely.

Exotic is fine for dungeon runs. If all you do is dungeon runs you don’t need ascended gear. If you do more than dungeons you should have some mats to level your crafts.

Eirdyne.9843:

- Farming Iron produces the most consistent income. 2 gold per hour average.

I’d say that’s platinum and hard wood, but I’m not really sure how this is a complaint.

Eirdyne.9843:

- Ascended Trinkets, Accessories, and etc are only accessible via Laurels unless you’re doing fractals, which is unlikely as Guilds are rarely doing group-anything.

You get laurels for logging in, so this shouldn’t be a problem for casual players.
I had a guild which did fractals daily.

Eirdyne.9843:

- The game is all solo oriented, but demands group activity for high end content like making legendaries and ascended gear while doing everything possible to remove access to karma, coin, and reasons to group up or build a community

You need dungeons for legendaries, yes, but I don’t know why you’d need a group for ascended gear.
Didn’t get the second part.

Eirdyne.9843:

- Meta isn’t necessary to do dungeons, but meta is the only thing being done in dungeons.

Not really, that is your preception. I prefer zerker in dungeons though. But as long as I have one of my buddies with me we can carry a group, no matter their build.

Eirdyne.9843:

- Armor should not be able to be linked nor AP seen for 30 minutes within any dungeon nor for the same length whenever a person joins a group of any kind.

No one ever asked me for my gear and I have done quite alot of pugging, so maybe you’re just unlucky. I haven’t looked at anyone’s AP in ages either, so again I guess it’s your perception, or you’re playing on NA and things there are vastly different from EU – but I don’t think so.

The rest didn’t make sense to me or was irrelevant to start with, so that’s why I left these points out.
If you don’t like the game, move on?

Guess the purpose of this thread is to show what “reveal” would do to other classes.

so +1 from me

Jizmak.1489:

Not that I agree with abolishing AC’s outside walls. Actually could give 2 craps either way… but this statement is untrue.

Trebs on 3rd floor SM can be countered via another treb, or even a bally with proper position. Just a FYI.

Balli if you’re already in SM, treb, no – you can’t build a counter treb. Nothing is higher than 3d floor SM – you can’t even reach a treb with a counter treb from the tower of power.

Jayne.9251:

Balli in ruins for Briar.

Yeah, I know – you can also put a balli in front of the tower – but it was about ACs and that there’s no other counter for a upper floor treb in SM.
It’s easier to build an AC at briar though as they have to get out for it – a balli from the ruins doesn’t work if they’ve already got one up themselves.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

SA did have excellent survivability + offence without the need for going full signet build. With strength runes, it was normal to have over 10 stacks of might during a fight, that added to 2pts in DA for mug, provided enough power to go over 300stat pts DA provided. Almost everyone in wvw ran with SA, that’s how good it used to be, far better than speccing full DA instead of SA. If you think old SA gave you “chance” to kill full offence specced thieves, then your skill level is kitten and no wonder you need old traits back.

SA had a good sustain, but if you got hit while stealthed you got hit hard.
You had 12 might stacks after sitting in SR, otherwise you were somewhat around 4-8 – I know because that was my build. I also know that the might stacks didn’t make me stronger/equally strong than a thief who ran full glass (I know because I calculated it) – and above all not stronger than a signet build.
I don’t know whether or not the thieves I met ran SA, it’s been a while, most people on this board play pvp anyway and they hated SA. The thieves probably did but I guess a lot of them opted for rune of the pack.
And I think your perception of “better than DA” is wrong or maybe of the playstyle of thieves. It was easier to survive with SA, yes, but that doesn’t mean that line was OP. S/D thieves didn’t use it because they had their acro and trickery- I guess at least one line is kind of “mandatory” for every weapon choice. And SA was for D mainhand (P/D is kind of a grey area.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

If you think old SA gave you “chance” to kill full offence specced thieves, then your skill level is kitten and no wonder you need old traits back.

Whatever you mean with that.

Edit: To make my point clear: If you now run SA you have a disadvantage (in wvw) -because everybody hits harder than you, but the line doesn’t offer much sustain anymore (especially not for D/D). So you have to take hits of 12k+, get immobilized and poisoned by a thief (f.e.) who runs DA, CS, T. Your healing is impaired, you can’t clear immobilize with your trait line but you take 25% less damage horray when stealthed and immobilized in an aoe field (and rez 5% faster horray). So whatever you do, you have to outsmart him, because he is a lot stronger than you- that has been different with the old SA- and I liked that. And that is my point.

Bunter.3795:

Just make it so you can’t build an ac outside an objective with walls and your server has to control the structure to build one inside the structure.

Then good luck getting trebs in briar or SM out – there’s currently no counter to a third floor treb in SM (other than an AC).

Back in the day when I started wvw, I ran with the zerg mostly – was too bad to do anything on my own.
Since we usually lost a lot, if not everything, at night, I adopted a tower each day, which I brought to T3, sieged up, refreshed and all that and I opened the map whenever possible to see if it was attacked.
Nowadays I have all hands full with roaming, so I can’t always open the map as I’m in the middle of a fight.
= I know it’s important, but I often miss when something is attacked.

Edit: Oh, but my old rule still applies – whenever orange swords pop up I open the map to see where.

kaikalii.4198:

I think that what of lot of people in this thread are not considering is that most Thieves are bad, so they are pretty easy to kill. What you should be asking you self is not “How hard is it to kill thieves as a different profession?” But "how hard is it to kill other professions as a thief main. Yes, thief is probably harder than most others, but it’s not as bad as most make it out to be

I said it in another thread: I half killed a thief with 2 hours (then it was one and that one hour has been a year ago) on my warrior. So basically I just hopped into wvw, have no real build, no real clue (first time ever I used S/W) (and I rarely play my warrior anyway) and just killed my main class. Of course it helped that I main a thief, but I shouldn’t have had a chance against anyone, even a “bad thief” cause you know “all thieves are bad, the class is fine”.

I’m rarely on another class but if, and if a thief crosses my way, I’m “Do you really think you can outsmart a thief main?” and then I’m sad when the guy is dead.

Depends on what class you were on

Doesn’t mean much if it was in PvE, though.
Come to think of it – how cool would a roaming thief dev be?

Aenesthesia.1697:

Disclosure: i am by no means asking for a nerf. Just stating that thieves are not that bad either….

Roll one and then come again?