Guild Wars 2

Zach.2618:

Imagine the staff had like tiny baby Ravens following behind you as footprints and when you stopped moving all of them would take to the air and start flying in an ominous circle above you.

That would be cool, yes.
I want a finisher like that actually.

Offair.2563:

i am not asking for a thief nerf,

Babou knows me – and that I would cry for hours in chat.

Anyway, yes that build is really annoying and it can kill. If you’re encountering a ghost thief somewhere unimportant, run away, if it’s in a camp/tower, use a stealth trap.

Here’s the problem: Thief traps/condis not triggering reveal was introduced because thieves can have caltrops on dodge which revealed them, so that was changed and it is important that the caltrops don’t reveal them still (dodging in SR is basically a must). I never played with traps, so I have no idea how important maintaining stealth is, but I guess it is for at least a thief. You can put down a trap for enemy x and he’s defeated without having triggered the trap, then enemy y comes along, you stealth but he triggers your trap. In the end this is what will happen with all the reveal skills/traits – thieves are being shut down, a thief without stealth is a dead thief (unless it’s a S/D thief and maybe Staff thief in HoT) – I defeated the same ghost thief 3 times today, 2 times with stealth traps once because he was being stupid.
Best way to solve this very problem is to add an ICD or something to the rune so chain stealthing isn’t possible anymore.

But since I’m a huge thief advocate: It is pretty sad if the only really “viable” build is this as it has been in game for quite a bit but just now became popular.

Zero Day.2594:

Why do that when we can find a more acceptable solution that nerfs just thieves.

Fixed that for you.

Kill the source of the frogs first – the chances that you can solo a camp with the frogs still in it are very slim.

meepeY.2867:

wtf I go afk from the forums for a few hours and now we’re discussing Pythagorean Theories and playing number games.

Yeah I was me and my buddy, Jana – I suck at S/D pretty hard. Luckbox was using D/P so that’s where the backstab came from.

Took me a while but I figured you were two persons – I was the thief standing in veloka starring at you. Spiteful of course (no).

Anyway; Zero, you’re right 2 thieves in a team count barely as one so they should have a combined range of ~1800 – now if you add thieves guild to that which has at least one P/P thief, then things might become a bit complicated.

vespers.1759:

Every other game on the planet manages to balance things. Arenanet is jsut lazy/ doesn’t give a kitten about WvW.

Don’t for a second buy that they can’t balance things.

Depends on the context – they can’t really balance zerg fights, maybe they meant that.

babazhook.6805:

The issue is not the runes. the issue is not stealth. What happened is the player in question got IMOBBED in a field that applied bleeds via caltrops.

The issue was the immobilize. One more time. I die on many toons when I am imobbed in a field that is doing damage. whether the person stealthed whle he did it is not material.

if the thief popped out of hiding and sang swanee river as he did the soft shoe the op still would have died because the immobilize and caltrops killed him.

Ok so he did not know he was there and could not react. Well as soon as the caltrops dropped a field of red shows. As soon as you are imobbed you know it. React just as you do if you see it coming and failed to avoid it.

You know the GW2 playerbase, they’re not happy with “just run away”
I tried to tell that to 10 people camping a ghost thief today – it didn’t work. I was accused to be a thief lover though – well, they’re not wrong with that. A strong argument was also that “necros just can’t run away as they’re sooo slow”.

Zero Day.2594:

4 Pistols is our equip type for this build, so those two thieves count as one…. :|

You forgot about thieves guild – the OP did as well…

Edit: Although they’re playing their +1 role just fine and did so when we fought each other as well – can’t remember whether I died or popped SR in the last second.

Edit²: And before this sounds salty; it isn’t meant like that – they honestly confused me because I had the S/D nearly down but all of the sudden I got a huge damage in and had no idea where it came from and when I looked up the incoming damage it was a backstab – and both of them have the same rank, so .. I was confused

Zero Day.2594:

So… If one thief stands 900 units infront of the other… and uses their pistols to shoot something that’s 900 units away… Does that mean that we effectively have 1800 range?

No, that means “got your back, buddy”

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jana.6831:

Do you both have bronze ranks and was one of you a S/D and the other D/X? Then you’ve met me today

Not me. I don’t play before 6pm PST.

No, I meant the OP.
And yeah we met.

Do you both have bronze ranks and was one of you a S/D and the other D/X? Then you’ve met me today

YAY PEOPLE FIND A REASON TO CRY NERF THIEF AGAIN – WE’RE BACK; BOYS AND GIRLS!!! ON TOP OF THE GAME CAUSE WE’RE IN META!!

(sorry)

Not being rooted (except with S/P which I hated at the start) was why I fell in love with thief (immediately) I never had more fun than leveling my thief.
But that isn’t that important to a lot of other people, so I’m not so sure if everybody picked thief even if they were super op as as it stands right now thief vs thief is an encounter that lasts seconds (exaggerated). Make it more op and there are no survivors unless you give them the toughest armor ever – in that case we would all sit in a circle and knit as it would be super boring. Not that knitting is, but you get my point.

apharma.3741:

Jana I think you’re missing the point about ghost thief. Nerf thief pls.

Ok joking aside, ANet were very quick to fix the self buff stacking of rangers as it was overpowered in a single person scenario. It seems ANet do and don’t balance around 1v1 in that they try to discourage that kind of scenario which could certainly be very powerful in 1v1. It seems they want that kind of power to be from team scenarios where multiple people work together to get that situation.

P.S. How’re you finding the matchup as a solo DD roamer?

Trapper thief is no real build but it depends on a rune. It is possible because of thief traits, yes, but if you balance thief around the rune then every thief who doesn’t take that rune is at a disadvantage.

What does the ever “they nerfed rangers within 24 hours cry!!” argument has to do with anything?
You think that anet doesn’t balance around 1 vs 1 and maybe they’re not exactly balancing around 1 vs 1 but: even if you take pvp so a group of 5 vs a group of 5. You have ever changing classes in these groups. And most of them fight 1 vs 1 at some point. So that is 1 vs 1 balance. If even indirectly. But I have no idea how anet balances everything that’s why I asked where you guys read how they are balancing.

I’m solo roaming since 1,5 years now and before June I had good chances to defeat every class and every build. The toughest were medi guard and no matter what engi. So for me there already was balance (once.. upon a time). I never agreed with how condis were buffed with the introduction of ferocity though.

Ty, I’m doing fine.

A trapper thief is a condi thief? They’re even more condi than a condi thief.
Anyway. A ranger loses stealth when the trap is triggered, really? I don’t feel like gearing my ranger or testing that in pvp, so that’s why I ask.

MUDse.7623:

what kind of nerf do u want? if u nerf it too hard no one will use traps again

btw ‘annoying’ is not a reason to nerf.

No it’s just that most people cry for a thief nerf – and I kind of guess that’s the reason for this thread. I’m trying to explain that it’s the rune, not thief, but people just don’t listen.

How about we nerf the rune of the trapper? Trapper ranger are equally annoying.

Dawdler.8521:

Yes, you did it all wrong. Then why complain about it, lol?

World completion is meant to be something you do as you go about your buisness in the world. 1% in a half hour there, maybe finishing that last half of a zone before joining WvW, farm materials and do some hearts on the way or taking some waypoints on the way to a guild mission. It adds up fast.

Everyone can speedrun but its rarely the most enjoyable way to do things.

Since I have enough characters to do stuff, my newer created ones are left on a map until they have 100%. It’s just as fast as if I had 45% (= most waypoints) – you have to run around the whole map for 100% anyway and the hearts are what take the longest – people rarely kill everything on the way and even if that wouldn’t be enough to complete hearts.
Only time I really completed hearts without intending to do map completion was during Scarlets invasion.

MUDse.7623:

for a true 1 vs 1 balance everyone would have same traits and same weapons.

No. That would just be for lazy people, developers and players.

take a ghost thief vs power shatter mesmer. a 1 vs 1 balance IMO is when every build has a fair chance vs every other.

Yes, that would be balance. Doesn’t mean there isn’t extremes and both of what you’ve mentioned currently are since there is no real balance since June. And the Ghost thief is an extreme anyway but the reason why that works is the rune not the thief traits.

MUDse.7623:

or i want a button for build + equip change at least while out of combat so when i see an enemy aproaching i can flip my build according to his class/weapons/buffood/ previous fights ( n still this would just end up in mindgaming and not 1 vs 1 balance )

I don’t get your point to be honest; if this game were balanced you wouldn’t have to change your build before entering combat. With the 14 point system there were “useless” builds which didn’t stand a chance against others but that should’ve been evened out by the 3 traitlines system – just that it isn’t balanced yet.

MUDse.7623:

i also dont get why ur fighting ‘on points’ in wvw ..ofc in them circles of lordrooms u might do so but thats mostly after the real fights when then attacking team won or previous to fights when the defending once come late.

Never took a camp?
I spoke of pvp though (5 vs 5 and “anet balances around pvp”).

Btw: My point was that I’d like to see some proof for the claim that anet doesn’t intend to balance around 1 vs 1.

Edit: spelling

MUDse.7623:

so ur talking about 1vs1 (this game is and will never be balanced 1 vs 1)

It has been pretty balanced 1 vs 1 and I have yet to see a red post or anything in which anet says that they will never balance based on 1 vs 1 s.
Even if they balance around 5 vs 5 they indirectly balance 1 vs 1 as people are fighting on points and the classes in the groups change.

Edit: I think the only thing that really is hard to balance is zergs – and I probablyy wouldn’t bother with that anyway as the players will figure that out themselves. What you can do as a developer though is to reduce the max of buffs, like the OP suggested.

For dungeons I use D/D.
For fractals it depends on what we’re facing: Single opponents: D/D, 34? fractal(no poison) and groups of mobs: S/P. Endboss of the Asura and Lava Fractal and the Molten Brothers: P/P. SB is always my second set.
You have to see what you need in what situation.
D/D is best against single targets, P/P is only vs single targets. S/P and SB is best against groups of enemies.
I recently had a look at metabattle and it looked pretty empty. I was also a bit confused about the thief build there was, but oh well, maybe it’s me.

Let me see, we’re trying to build up our borderland right now – with two people, the other is afk, I think.

What I’ve killed the past half an hour:

Guard twice, once afk the other time capping a camp, some bronze rank with a Sunrise (important to some people "Oooh legendary, best player ever!!)
2 Necros both bronze ranks, one afk the other capped a camp – that was a good fight actually because I trolled him and he wasn’t too bad, just underestimated me.
Warrior squire (PvE daylie tourist).
A ranger killed me though sadface.

And it’s actually funny to kill afk players, especially with shortbow as you see all the passive kitten popping up.

Now also a condi thief (bronze or silver) and a diamond recruit pew pew ranger – he might want to think about his build. Both weren’t afk but brain afk.

Ballistic.2570:

1. Hearts could have red rings on the map, marking their effective zones.

I second that – Done map completion 8 times and I’m still trying to figure out how to solve some quests without waiting for 3 mobs to respawn.
Worst map in that regard is Snowden Drifts.

apharma.3741:

Jana isn’t that why thieves also have blinds and greater mobility than most other classes too? I mean yeah stealth is one of but its not the only defence a thief has.

Well, you’re in a SR and an attack is incoming, you’re out of dodges what do you do? Port out of your SR? Put a smokefield into your SR while the opponent is in 1500 distance? That doesn’t work.
You can argue all you want and maybe that was what those bringing reveal skills into this game though as well: Stealth is the defense of a thief. That’s why they have no blocks or invulnerabilities.

I agree with you, OP.

And Puck: Stealth is the defensive ability of thieves – we have no invulnerability. When other classes are out of dodges they pop that instead – thieves can’t.

Yeah, although it takes me ages to place siege on stairs “oh we lost all camps around me and I still haven’t gotten this AC down”.
TY very much =)

Good play, btw. Even though your opponents were either occupied elsewhere or new or made mistakes.

I don’t know if anet really intended thief to be that weak – I somehow guess it was an accident (which shouldn’t have happened, but oh well).

If you’re insanely lucky and find the precurser and are able to farm all T6 mats, you’ll spend 120 gold for twilight (other legendaries aren’t that easy as getting the mats required for them is far worse than T6 mats).
But you’ll need to do quite lot of farming in lvl 80 areas to get all the mats. I never really did that, but I assume you’ll need about half a year to get enough of everything.

In the end, if you just play the game you’ll get there eventually but if you “need a legendary really urgent” then you might be better off to just buy it. But with HoT there comes precurser crafting, maybe things will become easier/cheaper. Although I somehow guess that T6 mats will become a lot more expensive.

Yeah, a friend of mine told me he was reported by a guild of 50 for playing D/D thief (on “their” team) in pvp today. It is funny and sad at the same time. And he is pretty good, so I don’t think he messed everything up.

Outnumbered warns you that a blob might be incoming to you.
Back in the day you also hadn’t had to pay for repairs, that was nice. Since the repair costs are gone it’s just there to warn you and give you some more exp+ magic find to encourage people to carry on, I guess.

Jayne.9251:

Isn’t that the NW tower in your pix?

I have a day off tomorrow, I’ll do some testing and see if I can’t find a fix.

Yeah it is NW sorry.
That would be great but question is when the next patch will hit and what will change then.
As you can see I also built an AC behind the one I was on and even that didn’t reach the gate.

Avectius.3271:

Jana.6831:

You can’t craft the mats, you can farm them though.
I think ready made legendaries are pretty cheap considered how much effort it takes to craft them.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Twilight
As an example – the wiki is really good to look up what you need for each legendary.

But are legendaries that expensive? How did you craft whatever ones you have? Give me an example. How much gold total did it cost you to do it?

Nothing because I farmed the mats – but in the end it doesn’t matter as both is worth the same: You can farm mats which are worth say 1k, or you can buy them and spend 1k.
Time or money, like the guys before me said.
The netto win for a ready legendary is somewhat around 300-500 gold but you get 2 gifts of exploration per map exploration and need one to craft a legendary = half of your character is gone (so to speak) = 400 gems if you plan to craft more legendaries to sell. You need ~1 mio karma that takes a while as well. You need ~1k? spiritshards, to get them it takes a few months on a level 80, you need dungeon tokens, you need badges of honour for which you have to play wvw or EotM (latter is fast though, it’s harder to come by badges in usual wvw).

ETA: By forging Mystic Clovers you’ll get some T6 mats though, but for that you need Mystic Coins which you can either buy or wait until you get enough from the daylies and Globs of Ectoplasm which you get by salvaging rare items for which you best do world boss trains = time.
ETA²: You also need Spirit Shards for Mystic Clovers. (= a level 80 char doing level 80 stuff for quite some time = killing mobs, champ trains).

You can’t craft the mats, you can farm them though.
I think ready made legendaries are pretty cheap considered how much effort it takes to craft them.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Twilight
As an example – the wiki is really good to look up what you need for each legendary.

I’d still like some kind of aegis or retaliation as I want people to use their brain and not just 111111111111 of flame thrower. So punish them for using brainless skills and reward them when they figure out stealth counters without reveal skills.

The problem is complex though. It’s combat in this game in general. Too much damage right now, too little time to properly fight and think.

Sorry, I had to “Necro” this thread because I’m very tired of this.
We complained about this issue because defending was made really hard with ACs placed right next to the tower and destroying everything within = no defense. Turns out the “fix” left us again with no defense.
No offense, but please consider removing first person view from wvw – I don’t have a clue how many people will object to this but I guess those who want to defend applaud it.
But it’s good to know that you now can destroy catas at NE tower of the borderlands. You can’t get the rams and PvG crowd down though, sorry.

rennlc.7346:

but it also seems like you’re pigeon-holing yourself into playing those builds and roles unnecessarily.

That’s what I meant – you assume stuff although you don’t know anything about me, how I play wvw or what my build is – why? It’s completely unneccessary and just destroys a proper discussion. I said everything I had to say – read it or leave it, I don’t care.

rennlc.7346:

snip

Wvw is something differently than pvp – we have the same goal but we need to do different stuff. I think if I’d ask my server whether or not they think I’m team oriented, they’d say I very much am. But to achieve that I need to be able to defend myself alone. x
And even if a 1 vs 1 in pvp is useless, we pretty much share the same abilities in both game modes. And that’s why I argue – because I can’t play my preferred game mode like I used to and like I need to.

Not sure if that covers everything – not in a good mood today, so I’m not really concentrated.

ETA: x I need to do so no matter my role in wvw, whether 1 vs 1, 5 vs 5, zerg vs zerg, zerg vs blob, blob vs blob.

bliss.4305:

Gunnar’s Hold must be an interesting community. In Desolation, we have nothing but solo thieves, mesmers and dedicated roamers who’re dueling and scrimming against each other (excluding the large scale GvGs or zerg fights that take place on a regular basis).

I don’t think my server has anything to do with it – I have been to a few although not lately.
And I can’t imagine that things are vastly different in gold although those on gold servers always claim it is.

bliss.4305:

1-You’re saying that “even” D/P thieves lose, which says you agree on its superiority as a weapon set. Yet you still use D/D and lower your chances of winning and generalize the outcome as thieves being inferior (BTW- I wish all weapon sets were viable and equally balanced, but lets face it, nope).

I’m a good player and D/P bores me. I’m also able to watch others and I also know of quite a few in FPs who have been asked to switch to mesmer. Me admitting that D/P is “superior” doesn’t mean that I only lose because of my weaponset – although I might have better chances with D/P still I’d have to outskill my opponent – that is the point.

bliss.4305:

2-I’ve claimed that thieves especially in WvW scenario have an easier time having fair duels in 1v1 — eventhough the game is hardly balanced around 1v1. (Because I think foods and stat distributions of gear ---not pvp amulets—- are more complimentary for thieves)

Don’t forget that the opponents also have access to food and stuff and they don’t have to take full offensive stats in most cases – even when it comes to food. So in the end it either evens out or the difference between the classes becomes even worse.

bliss.4305:

3-A build that’s directly a counter to you will always give you a hard time and lower your chances of victory because…. see note #2. I’m not saying you can never win against a Lock on Engi or Sick ’em Ranger or soon Revenants, Dragon Hunters or Scrappers… but it will tilt the odds in their favour for sure.

Right now every build is a counter to me, I guess. Or maybe every build is a counter to everything or whatever – what is a direct counter to my build and what other options do I have?

bliss.4305:

4-We all lose fights and win fights and the outcome is generally always decided by “outskilling” the opponents. There are margins of imbalances that favour 1 class against the other but like I’ve said in note #2, I don’t believe this to be as dramatic and apocalyptic as you and lately most thieves make it sound especially in WvW aspect.

You’re partly right, just that I have to even outskill upscaled wvw scouts (<- rank). That was my point.

ETA: To make it clear for you: A thief fighting any class played by someone of equal skill will lose. Before June: Most classes vs thief, equal skill = 50/50 after a few rounds.
Although I mostly won against mesmers, don’t know if they were that UP or if I won because it was my favourite class to fight.

bliss.4305:

I’m baffled how as an experienced OS/WvW duelist you’d find it difficult to stand a fair chance against another class of equal personal experience. Oh well, I suppose I just outskill the majority of my opponents then. Gotcha.

edit: Looking at your signature I see you’re a D/D roamer. Well then there’s your answer.

I actually doubt that you are as experienced as you claim. But yes, you probably outskill them – I have no idea as I don’t know you. I just know that the usual spot for duellists in wvw is deserted and I fight a lot, so I disagree on your claim that every experienced duellist would agree with you.
I know that D/P thieves can do a lot more than D/D but even they lose (unless they outskill) – the reason why there’s hardly any solo roamers anymore.

bliss.4305:

Outside of the conquest game type which PvP really is… In a dueling scenario, in my experience, both S/D and D/P weapon sets have a good chance of beating their opponents if both players are close in personal experience. Any experienced duelist would agree with me on that.

As an experienced outside pvp duellist I disagree.

ETA: Any thief who kills any class in this game either outskills their opponent by far or caught them completely off guard (as the damage went up alot with the June patch). Please don’t pretend this game hasn’t issues. It’s not just thief but thief may suffer the most from what went wrong.

@ zero:
The crucial point for that is the ferocity patch.
I can’t remember at what percentage crit was nerfed 40% and didn’t it hit thieves harder because all traits were nerfed with it?
That patch made condis “op” which made it impossible for thieves to stay in zergs. Not just because of the condis but because the zergs were killing each other more slowly because their direct damage was nerfed. Come to think of it; I used to rally off killed enemies a lot. Not really the case anymore but I’m probably a bit better now anyway so I don’t go all Yolo anymore (lie).
We had a lot of condi roamers in the beginning, after a few weeks most went zerker. And there was a “code of honour” not to go condi. Question is why the direct damage roamers went zerker and not something else.
My nooby feeling back then was that my cooldowns were just too long for anything but zerker.

Then you have the patch now – you can’t kill warriors or guardians
Once you have found a weak spot on any other class they’re dead nearly instantly. (With exception of eles who have too many shields).

So, I guess something with the formulas went wrong in both cases and maybe not every class has to be revised but how everything scales.

You annoy me because I don’t like hobby shrinks who pretend to know anything about me.
Wvw solo roaming is the hardest there is, sorry to burst your bubble, so if you meet a serious solo roamers (there still are some but they’re rare since June and were even before that) be prepared for a good fight.
It is far more effective if the whole server works as a team, you have to adapt from 1 vs 1 to 1 vs x. It’s not 5 vs 5 and you can call help whenever you need it – you have to do things on your own.
Pvp can’t be called balanced if one class is only taken in because of their mobility – the moment another class will get near equal mobility that class won’t be in pvp anymore.
Same with rangers who argue that their class in underpowered because pvp top teams don’t have them. Nobody seems to spare a thought at how pvp is set up and if it is for every class.
Try wvw harder, unfortunately we depend on what the “perfectly balanced game mode” spits out for us.

rennlc.7346:

We don’t even know what the final anti-stealth traits will be, whether or not they will be used, and whether or not we will have a counter play to them (such as simply dodging a reveal the same way we dodge a Power Block or Fear Well while in Shadow Refuge). My arguments make no sense because you are currently unwilling to view your role as a Thief as what the present meta most heavily rewards. This is a role defined by teamwork and the versatility of how we’re able work in conjunction with other players. Thief, as a whole, is not weak. Thief is weak at how you’re currently attempting to play it. The meta changed and you didn’t change with it, Jana. If you are not willing to even consider the possibility of this being true, there is nothing more I can do to attempt to help you improve as a player. If so, I’m very disappointed in both your capabilities as a person to adapt and my capability as a person to be of assistance.

They are already being used and Lock on is really nasty – that skill completely shuts me down. (I still killed that engi because he forgot to L2P because he’s got such a nifty noob spam skill)
I’m a wvw thief, I don’t care about your “special roles” in pvp.

I personally find you annoying, so maybe work on that instead of taking pity in me- oh and play thief sometimes.

And if you think that pvp is “the end of it all and the best and stuff” try wvw – solo roaming – have fun.

Not with reveal
Not with D/D
Not when my steal is on cooldown
No team when I’m the only one at the downed team member

I’m just arguing that your arguments about L2P make no sense and that you’re trying to sugarcoat that there is an issue when a class is unable to defeat 8 of 9 classes unless they outskill them by lengths (although outskill all 9 classes probably).

“Oh noz, I’m about to be stomped by this warrior, pls help me!!”
“Sorry, I can’t, I’m a thief”

Yes, please. Aegis or invulnerability on reveal.

babazhook.6805:

Well again I am taking out people outside the zerg with p/p. I use d/d power as well but find that a slower method in so doing simply because of the need to close range.

Currently my second set is d/d as well. That is for close in fighting. I am talking ranged. It is faster for me to take out a cripple who chases another or runs from another at range then it is to use d/d.

When HOT hits I will likely switch to staff and p/p.

I also have 2 other thieves. I am able to compare between them which methosd work most effectively.

Ok, then again: I use poison to weaken the heal sigils, waterfields and regroups of my enemies. If you use it on downed enemies the enemies can’t get them up with the warrior banner (I only know the german name for it), also if someone rezzed them and/or if they try to heal themselves I interrupt and slow that.
I can blast any field for really nice combos – just that I’d need a good zerg to coordinate that but that is a different problem. So fire field + blast = might. There’s frostfields with which I give my allies frost aura and slow the enemies if blasted, light fields for retaliation (most people probably don’t want that), static fields for 1 min or whatever swiftness, waterfields for healing.
I’m weakening the whole enemy zerg and buff my own. But maybe I’m just very good with SB, no idea – but it works for me – if I’m really running with zergs for a day I “kill” about 500 enemies.
Not objecting P/P with SB as a second set, but I would always prefer the utility of SB for a zerg fight.

babazhook.6805:

I am sorry but just because you have been playing for two years dos not mean I have not been.

I find P/P more effective In Zerg fights unless the zerg static or at a choke point where the SB superior. (especially since the damage boost)You have your style I have mine. You should not presume that just because you have a preference anothers is stupid.

Zergs break down and people break away from the zerg. PP takes these guys out far more efficiently than the slow attacks on the SB. With Dash it worked even better.

try it for yourself. I have used both for those same two years.

Good for you, then lets just agree to disagree =)
I don’t see single target damage being helpful in a zerg.
My second set is D/D btw which I use to kill off single targets.

babazhook.6805:

The way to use P/P in a zerg fight is not to engage those in the mass of the zerg. SB works better there if you want range.

You have to hang on the periphery. Inevitably enemy players will break from the main body of the zerg either trying to heal or chasing someone down or trying to get in behind your lines. That is the best time to use P/P on them and it very effective.

The trick is to stay unnoticed so no one focuses on you.

SB I find no where near as effective if the battle fluid. If it static or at a chokepoint SB does very well.

So not it not stupid to use P/P in a zerg. It just that you have to adapt tactics and expect to die if you muck up.

It is, sorry, I’m a “zerg thief” since I started thief 2 years ago.
A lot of guilds ask me if I want to be in their focus party and I see that a thief there made sense – not so much when you’ve got no chance of killing someone quickly (since June 23th), especially if there’s tons of buffs and boons flying around – and of course enough AoE to kill you.
Enemy thieves try to gank me sometimes and 1 out of 10 attempts to kill me (valk + zerker) succeeds.
But try for yourselves.

ETA: Long story short:
I’m by far more successful and helping with a shortbow. Although I can see the benefits of a coordinated FP with at least 2 (D/P) thieves.

ETA²: And I’ve been told I’m the only thief playing like this – more should try, honestly.

ETA³: The funny thing is that my first server knew I was running with them so we always had firefields for me to blast. We were running around with constant 25 might stacks. And swiftness and AoE retaliation because I blasted everything.

P/P is single target damage
All other thief weapon sets aren’t.
So using P/P in a zerg fight would be kind of stupid.

Edit: Unless, of course, you want to assassinate the enemy commander – but that takes quite a lot of knowledge