Love it when people use the term pay2win so lightly.
Pay to be competitive?
As I don’t think any of the vanilla thief builds will be viable in hot without DD.
Not quite sure about D/P, they might still make it.
Thanks baba and MUD, you said it better than I could.
In general: The current brainless meta has been up for too long – 4 months, and people really think that dishing out 17k with one regular skill while being invulnerable is the norm.
ETA: And that means that people won’t accept that they have to use their brains to fight someone (a ghost thief f.e.) anymore.
ANet has a legendary game but the devs/marketing go out of their way to make it a crappy experience sometimes.
They made a huge mistake by ignoring population problems/letting even the lower server being counted as “very high” for too long
In general they made a mistake by leaving wvw unattended for too long. We were fine during that time though, but the changes made to the game, and now probably wvw, are the least of what wvw needed.
So, I don’t blame them for players not being able to move to full servers right now – it had to happen at some point.
You’re fighting really bad dire condi players then tbh, granted most of them are because of the fact they typically use it as a crutch to get free kills.
Yes,no wonder -there’s hardly any thieves around anymore, let alone solo.
Or maybe I’m just a really good thief ;)
Going to have to agree somewhat. Even if you know his location if he himself isn’t braindead he should be able to survive almost anything.
I frontline glass cannon thief without any defensive traits or abilities in 40v40 and usually come out alive. I have been asked by commanders in server chat/TS how I stay alive and have been frequently used as an engage signal for the rest of the blob to follow after I am first to dive in. I quit solo roaming recently because it become a matter of extremely cheesy and unfun build decisions and frankly, I think D/P and SA are extremely boring, passive, and easy ways to play the thief and the game itself.
If people die playing dire thief to any extent in anything less than 25 people, or mesmer, they are straight bad.
I still kill dire thieves, although it’s easier to do it with a stealth trap, yes, but 4 experienced people should be able to kill them.
Not sure what your zerg experience has to do with it, but I’m doing the same actually – you have to know how the zergs will move and I don’t know how I can tell, experience or instinct, no idea. Guess it’s the same with D/D as well, there’s not much time to think.
No as that would lead us to pre ferocity again, plus “OP” condis.
I can’t really remember how things back then were but soldier’s was a good choice to not be “one shotted” by a backstab, didn’t work too well afterwards, maybe it does again, haven’t really tried it. The game was pretty nice between ferocity and June as the overall damage wasn’t too high. So, by raising thief damage but leaving everybody else as they are it’s just more power creep. Would be a quick fix but wouldn’t fix the core of the issues.
With respect, jana, you answered a different question; we were doing what you were suggesting.
The question I actually asked was, how does a trapper thief kill 4 or 5 PC’s, given parity in player skill and equipment? What do they equip? What skills do they use? How do they sequence them?
That should highlight either what’s broken, or how to counter it.
AoE skills, every class has them, use them. Dodge, also every class is able to do that, cleanse condis, yet again every class can do that.
In short: Think (not everybody can do that)
It depends to where they want to bring this whole game.
If they want to keep the invulnerabilities of other classes, I’d like CnD to be unblockable. If they want to keep SA like it is, I’d also like a blind on it. If they want to keep the overall damage of all classes, I’d like the latest damage nerf reverted.
And all of this would help D/D but not make it on par with D/P or other classes out there.
You said, invulnerable throughout the fight, I asked for builds. I then stipulated the fight has to
1. Last over 10s and
2. The invulnerable person has to be able to essentially do more than either cast, be casting or stuck unable to attack. Essentially be some form of threat.
Then read again what I said before you start to put words into my mouth =)
@Jd:
When meeting a trapper thief, I aoe the area around me, build a stealth trap or just go away, depending on the situation, if he’s a threat to my camp/tower/ keep, I will try to kill him and I will kill him.
Most classes in this game are currently beyond brainless, they can go full zerkers and still have 70% uptime on their passive and active damage migations – I don’t like the game like it currently is and I think trapper thief just fits into this meta. If anet is going to nerf trapper thief they better nerf all other classes as well.
That is a bad analogy. It’s more like: “I have already written this exam, why do I need to write it again to get the same Degree?”.
Because you get something for it – that’s the point.
None of your characters needs 100% map completion, you might want to have all waypoints, you might need all hero points (with HoT), but you don’t need 100% map completion, unless you want to craft a legendary.
How is it free when I’ve already completed those maps at least once? Check the definition of free maybe? You may want to check the definition of everything while you are at it, because that is one thing. In fact, if you are having this much trouble with definitions…you may want to just buy yourself a dictionary lol.
“I demand to take this pint of milk home as I have already bought one last week!!”
I think you can kind of boil down the discussion to a simple yes or no to a very simple question.
Should you ever be able to kill someone without ever leaving stealth or any indicators you were there?
Counterquestion: There’s enough classes who are basically invulnerable throughout the fight – should that be?
Please link me any build that can realistically be invulnerable for an entire fight that isn’t over in less than 10s, which also isn’t sat there essentially doing nothing while invulnerable.
Guards, warriors, rangers and mesmers have got more than one invulnerability and they can hit while they’re at it.
Didn’t get the rest of your post, do you mean perma stealthed thieves (who aren’t invulnerable) do nothing while sitting in stealth or do you mean all other classes can’t do anything while being invulnerable?
ETA: I’m no fan of the runes or the build either- but I’m against the never stopping “NERF THIEVES!!!!!!!!!!111”
I already said I don’t need the gift. I am willing to opt out of the gift, the star, everything. Heck, I just want the option to unlock all waypoints.
Problem with that is that anet listens to this.
At first we had threads “remove wvw map completion” now “remove map completion” – you will get it eventually if you whine long enough.
Personally I think it’s dumbing down the game even more, but maybe that’s just me.
When there are things that depend on 100% map completion…then “not doing it” is a penalty that is unnecessary.
The only thing you miss out on by not doing 100 % map completion is the Gift of Exploration and I’d like that to have a value.
Don’t call me ignorant because you want everything for free.
I want this because I find it incredibly boring to repeat map clears on each character, just for the sake of having each character show 100% map complete. I have multiple characters who have different maps cleared. Its not like I haven’t actually completed those maps….its just on different characters. That’s literally the one thing that is causing me not to have map complete….
Then don’t do it – this game works without 100% map completion.
It’s actually pretty simple to unlock at least 80% of the WPs of a map: start somewhere, run a circle at the edge of the map, run to the center, wp to the nearest border to the next map you want to uncover.
Queensdale took me about 16 mins just now.
And 70-80% is usually more than enough, even if you won’t have that specific WP you might need in the future – they’re not that far apart.
I think its too powerful. I just watched a trapper/stealth/condi thief take down 4 experienced, decently equipped level 80 players in WvW.
I’m a platinum rank who lost against a guardian, assaulter rank, today – I think we should tone down guardian as I’m clearly very experienced.
(There’s actually some truth behind it, I’d just like to point out that we’re in the brainless passive buff meta and that people usually think they’re experienced – a friend sent me a youtube video of someone playing a shooter with modified toasters today and my answer was: “And GW2 is currently played by toasters pretending to be humans”.)
Not to rain your parade but this about all thieves not just a single weaponset.
Thanks for joining the discussion though
Then think
I can see what nice stuff other classes have. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect D/P, S/D, P/D, P/P, SB or other classes. As I see it there’s no skill in this game anymore just “killed by chance/because one made a big mistake”.
I don’t really want to buy HoT right now. I tried necro and it was actually alright, but it doesn’t really afford the same feeling as thief.
There is no other advise I can give you, sorry.
S/D will become better if you take the Daredevil line – other than that there’s nothing you can do right now.
I was thinking lately: D/D thief is kitten right now.
What would improve my situation?
First, being able to take CiS, SE and SRej. Second; SE removes 2 conditions at once one CC, one damaging. I’d like to have some might again so that someone taking SA isn’t at disadvantage against other thieves who have their mobility on their weapons (thus don’t really need SA).
Then I realized that even if this would happen (and it would really help me) – that the merged invulnerabilities of the traitlines of most other classes won’t go away and that is a huge problem for me. Thief never had passive stuff applied anyway (except Last Refuge which is now gone) all other classes (except Necros) now have twice as many.
So, they need to give thief passive stuff to make him on par with the other classes. And I’m not so sure I like that as D/D is the rawest form of combat in this game and maybe that’s why I can see all the passive stuff everybody has applied to them.
Sorry I went away from the pvp topic, but I guess the situation for thieves won’t improve unless anet
a) realizes there is a problem
b) realizes that reveal skills/traits are shutting a whole (butchered) traitline of thief down = turn them into lootbags
c) thief as a class is redesigned – as honestly; they would have to nerf all 8 other classes to help thief and that won’t happen.
Even devs on stream say that thieves are strong kek.
Out of curiosity; when did they say that? Recently?
I really wonder how they will fix the mess they caused in June. Probably never – brainless is the new meta.
The community itself would make gw2 into an e-sport… not throwing 400k over 2 season….
Theres a reason why barely 10k viewers watched the WTS finals……
its not fun to watch… like AT ALL. no idea whats going on thanks to particle effects and fighting all over the place…casters can only do so much…thats even if you are hardcore pvper… general population of gw2 players will have no clue…
I love to play gw2 pvp, but as a spectator – no thanks, its not fun to watch (unless its a major tourney/finals)
I second that – tried to watch sizer fight back in the day but the constant switching made it impossible for me to really see anything.
What armor, weapons, sigils, runes do we need in order to be more than viable? Right now I have full exotic with rare accessories since I can’t find zerk/Valk accessories. I want to get the best gear I can have pre-ascended so if I die in a 1v1 I know it’s my fault and not my gear. I hate how annoying it is to track down gear from like 10 different methods just to WvW properly without a gear disadvantage. Metabattle is not up to date anymore.
Can anyone make a list of the best pre-ascended gear you can possibly have and how to obtain it?
Edit – not to mention WvW abilities and ranks where a new player is further screwed by that applied fortitude crap. I don’t know why I even bother to try WvW as a thief new player, so many kitten disadvantages before you even step foot in combat.
Sorry for hijacking and going on a rant. I might just make this into a new thread lol
Guard stacks will be gone next week.
The gear and runes you chose depend on the weapons you use.
A friend of mine swears on a mix of valk/cavalier, I run: soldier’s, valk, zerker all 3 gears with zerker trinkets and weapons, there’s not much difference between all of them. Him and I are both running D/D btw. For S/D I would always chose full zerker’s.
BUT balance is rather off at the moment, so there is no real “fair” 1 vs 1 – as a thief you have to outskill your opponent, which might have always been the case but has gotten worse since in June as a lot of our viable traits were either removed or nerfed or moved into the same tier so we can’t take them anymore. Also the June patch brought powercreep of other classes/build which so far got buffed with the patch after (except mesmer who were slightly nerfed – and maybe ele – not so sure about that because I rarely meet them).
I hope this helps you.
And to both of you: say at least what weapons you use in wvw so it’s easier to help you =)
Edit: Grammar
Edit²: Craft the accessories or buy them from the TP. For zerker’s: Ruby Orichalcum…, for valk: Beryl Orichalcum…
For the love of god – remove first person view from wvw – I don’t give a kitten whether or not 3 roleplayers will be upset about this but defending is impossible like this and you can’t imagine how frustrating that is. Really, before you implement anything hampering with wvw mechanics – test it. And if it doesn’t work don’t bring it into the game.
I had a tiny chance to save veloka just now – but oh no! none of the ACs could hit the catas on the side of it – great. But ACs built on the ground still hit my defensive siege.
I’m saying that when Anet changed the way Thief traps work and deal damage that they were fully aware what would happen, Perma Stealth has been neglected and they have not fixed it in 3 years.
That’s probably why they brought reveal skills/traits into the game.
“yo guys, we don’t know what to do anymore, take this and solve it yourselves”
I have played thief “a bit” I have also played plenty of other classes. -25% damage reduction is nothing to be sniffed at especially as a minor when the current way to find a thief is hit thin air and watch your auto chain or AoE and hope.
As for the thief forums its full of whiney little kittens that wouldn’t be happy even if they could 1v20 with a one shot kill and would go around crying “kitten kitten , l2p nubz”.
Hell that fact that they genuinely believe a thief cannot perma stealth and that a mesmer still has more stealth than a thief (even after PU reversion) is proof enough of the moronic cesspool of that place.
I have played all classes as well, doesn’t mean I know anything about them.
I see you haven’t read the forums – they have been full of constructive feedback since June – only the last balance patch made people a bit salty.
And you seem to be very afraid of thieves.
So long, althapharma whatever your obsession with me
Play thief a bit, will you? =)
Sorry, but I guess you know that the thief forums are full of “evidence” and I’m tired to explain. – 25% damage is nothing compared to what other classes can do. And that only counts while in stealth (reveal traits) if you’d know D/P you’d know that they’re the hardest to hit thieves anyway.
They are the same thing, except the mesmers can perma-buff the entire zerg with quickness with some outside help, while the rangers could only perma buff themselves with quickness in the same scenario…
You answered your own “question”, I hope you noticed that.
EDIT – Ghost Thief makes Thieves viable? D/P and P/P aren’t viable anymore? S/D isn’t viable because it takes a modicum of effort? It doesn’t take 3 years to be able to play S/D, it just takes a bit of effort, of which the other Thief builds don’t really require.
But anyway, what is a Ghost Thief viable to do now that you couldn’t before?
All builds but D/P were nerfed in June. And even D/P is mediocre in comparison with other classes’ power creep. D/D not viable because the traits required for it are in the same tier, P/D not viable because of the same reason and because bleeding and poison is relatively weak and because ricochet was removed. P/P was never viable to start with, S/D isn’t viable since the removal of feline grace.
Ghost thief is a troll build which becomes boring fast – that’s why no one used it, I guess.
It’s already been qq’d about multiple times. No it doesn’t have to do with “being built around stealth” either. Your statement begs the question just what do you think engineer is “built around”?
Read a bit about thief traits – most of it is tied to stealth – take that away and thief has got no access to condi cleanse, regeneration, damage migation and so on.
Engi might have access to stealth but the class can well live without it, just like rangers and mesmers.
WTH? Theives get a pass but Engineer’s bomb on dodge still reveals them?
Since engineers aren’t build around stealth it is fair, I think – you can however make a thread and demand that engineers won’t be revealed upon dodging and leaving a bomb – I don’t care =)
@Jana, not worried about mesmers either, more worried about the QQ and random nerfs mesmers will get if they ever had traps and paired with this rune =P
See, now you get what I (and others) are coming from – and that’s the reason why I think anet should really get a solid balance team – maybe even class pros who do nothing else than sitting in their cubicle playing their designated class in pvp, pve, wvw the whole day.
The community should not have this much influence on balance choices. At best they should have no influence at all.
And yeah, I wouldn’t mind paying for that.
@Jana, you’re suggesting nerfing the runes because one and only one class can abuse the stealth aspect. Especially when it’s the class, thief in this case, that is the odd one out with traps that don’t reveal it when triggered.
Btw this isn’t anti thief, if it was any other class with traps that didn’t reveal them too then my answer would be the same. Let’s just hope Mesmer doesn’t get traps sometime…
Rangers won’t be revealed immediately as well.
I hope anet will come up with a smart solution and not just with “Aaah, thieves can take another one for the team”.
I don’t really care about mesmers tbh – they have been my favourite class to fight, not because I was winning all the time but because it was challenging and interesting. I have never been afraid of mesmers, sorry ;)
Yeah which is why I said they just need to add damage to the thief traps except needle trap, problem solved. Could even add it to needle trap if you want, won’t make much of a difference.
Just explained why that would be bad for every thief.
Perma stealth wouldn’t work with a prolonged cooldown as the initative would run out or the thief would have to replace one of his traps with SR which is a gigantic red circle you can throw your AoE on and he probably wouldn’t do that much damage anymore.
Had my favourite commander on my FL and jumped into wvw every time I saw he was on.
If there already had been a commander and he wasn’t tagged up but following, I followed him while he was following the commander – you might think that makes no sense but it does as my usual favourite commanders and me think alike, so we push together and retreat together.
If you have any questions regarding wvw you can always ask in map chat – I asked tons of stupid questions when I was new.
I never really needed a guild, so not so sure how to get a wvw guild but I guess for that you can ask in mapchat once again.
I don’t want to be redirected into some guild hall, I want to play wvw.
