Guild Wars 2

This sort of fight is exactly why I like static discharge with reflecting turrets on scrapper.

I tested some stuff, it seems CS does do more damage than DA a lot of the time, at least with staff anyways. Not sure why, but higher numbers on my screen. So sorry if I came off as kitten y in the last post ^^

We have seen this coming for a very, very long time now.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Feels-like-thief-will-be-nerfed-by-relativity/first#post4360923

Spartacus.5243:

this ^ just lol @ these people saying im still ruby therefore im bad. I have a life m8, I dont play everyday. Division you are in says nothing about individual skill. Only says something about how much time you have put in and RNG how lucky you have gotten with teams since I only do Solo Q. just lol @ that argument. So yeah dont listen to these sad kents cuz they are ignorant as kitten. as again mentioned only watched 3 mins. so they know nothing. haters gonna hate so just watch my stream brahs. Also Crit strikes is far superior to DA i have compared the dmg output. I also like to replace no quarter with invigorating precision btw.

Just a couple of things.

Firstly, CS only has better damage than DA if you lack crit chance or sources of fury, because DA gives % damage modifiers that affect non crits as opposed to more crit damage. You have >50% crit chance with marauder amulet, meaning fury access is the most important criteria here.

Compare 10% damage when target has a condition from DA to 10% crit damage when target is over 50% from CS, and assume a hit with base damage 2k. 10% extra damage on your 2k hit which then crits for 200% damage will do more damage than 2k only modified by a crit of 210% (4.4k with DA vs 4.2k with CS), and if you don’t crit you get zero extra damage from CS, requiring you to have very high crit chance to compare them. Running DA with marauder amulet, pack runes, signet of agility and thrill of the crime results in >80% crit chance, which is more than enough.

In comparison, for CS to do more damage you’d have to run no quarter for the extra crit damage, and this is assuming that the target is >50% health (so no executioner) and a greater or equal crit chance compared to the DA build. So when taking invigorating precision over no quarter and flanking strikes over totc, you lose fury uptime and the extra crit damage when you have fury, making DA with thrill of the crime and executioner objectively better.

Secondly, if you want people to take you seriously, try talking like a human being. I already don’t want to watch your stream because you come off like an idiot when you talk about traits etc being goat or hnnnng. Minor point, but I can’t be the only one thinking that.

Taking trickster over bountiful theft helps. Cleanse conditions on dodge too, dodge through the field that applied the burn to cleanse again. Other that that, never 1v1, +1 instead basically.

Thief really should have been named assassin, as that’s the only build style for direct damage that really works tbh.

On the plus side, we retain our daredevil dodges when transformed into a snowball. Attacking things with bound like that is pretty funny.

The daredevil rune crits do not stack, so if you dodged twice you’d still only crit on the next attack, not the next two.

Whether daredevil and Intel sigils stack I do not know, but scavenger runes do not stack with leeching sigils, so I’d say it’s likely that they also do not stack. If you watched your swaps etc you probably could make sure you did not waste charges, but that might be your best case scenario.

I actually preferred the nerfed version as well tbh, but I mostly run dash so the extra swiftness wasn’t necessary. I was primarily annoyed with the change because it was stealth nerfed, no patch note to even try to justify it. That shows a complete lack of balls on the devs part imo, and frankly was far more infuriating than the change itself. The fact that it was reverted quickly is the only saving grace of the whole incident.

But yeah. Like I say, a hell of a lot rides on the next balance patch for me. Only being effective at bursting people who don’t know we’re there is a kittenty position to be in.

They don’t work in the same way. Shadow trap functions the same way as shadowstep, and has all the same issues with valid path errors and getting stick on twigs (like when porting from Anza to the northern supply camp in EB, for instance).

Portal on the other hand is a true teleport, you don’t instantaneously run from one point to another like a shadowstep, you simply cease to be where you were and start being at the other end of the portal. And this is fully how shadow trap should work, but since the devs can’t even give us 10% healing on withdraw when it’s in the patch notes I don’t expect anything when it comes to fixing this trap.

To be fair to the Devs, they did revert the steal nerf in the same sort of timescale after the thief community spoke out. That being said, I agree that if thief gets nerfed at this point, it’ll pretty much be time for thief players to move on to another game.

They made it very clear that we are not assassins when the game launched, kind of ironic that that’s the only thing that we can really do these days.

Speaking of mice, I have a Roccat Nyth. 12 thumb button slots that can be moved or size changed depending on need/preference. I have all my utilities, my 5 skill, sheath weapon and push to talk for TS bound to just the mouse thumb buttons. Given your recent accident (sorry to hear about that btw), it might work well for you.

On the build, I’ve run it in WvW to some success, main problems are DH’s and chronomancers (blocks and invulnerable), Reapers (huge health and condi transfer), immobilise (unless you run dash and go more condi burst oriented) and a general lack of stealth outside of refuge if you sacrifice a venom. Works great for PvE provided you don’t get hit though :P

If you’re using impaling lotus, shortbow is worth it as dodging through a poison field can add quite a substantial number of poison stacks, which makes killing mesmer clones etc a none issue. They don’t last long, but I’ve had a 3k poison tick in WvW from this plus poison on steal and impairing daggers. Single target though, so maybe better for bosses/roaming WvW.

Good luck with things dude!

So after playing around with it, I pretty much settled on being slow. I tried dash, which solved the problem of immob (pretty much the only thing that’s killed me on this build), but I really missed the damage from using impaling lotus through poison fields on shortbow. It’s far superior to cluster bomb spam imo and means I can maintain damage through swaps with geomancy too.

GW2skills doesn’t seem to be working for me atm, so here’s what I changed from what I posted previously:

• Using DA DD Trick instead of acro DD Trick now. Top-middle-top traits on DA.
• Changed heal to withdraw, dropped distracting daggers for roll for ini, and took trickster since I saw already using daggerstorm. Solves immob issue and some condi cleanse to boot.
• Took caltrops over TotC. It’s amazing how many people stand in those things.
• Changed perplexity runes to adventurer, and now running geomancy/energy on daggers. Means I don’t miss channeled vigor for endurance regen.

It seems to work. I understand that mobility is the thief’s main selling point atm, but I’m running this precisely so I CAN fight things when solo roaming instead of having to run from duo roamers constantly.

Btw, I know that there is another related thread, it was very good reading. Since the topic was on runes though, I didn’t want to derail it further. Thanks for pointing me to it though, and thank you for feedback everyone ^^

I normally run this for interrupt:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZEQNAsaVn0MBlOhFOBGmC8PhFYCzLNcGaDzdwTYLULBEA2NA-T1yIABAcCAmWPgxHBg2fAAedIAQSJYOKj2WTwPKdMZ/h1V/hQAm3CA-w

It’s a fun playstyle though, nice to see another S/P thief ^^

How do you guys keep good swiftness/movement speed on condi builds? Thinking of WvW roaming specifically.

I don’t want to sacrifice my plex runes or lotus training as we lack in condi damage compared to other classes already, which seems to leave me with two options: run DA and lose my runes or lotus training (in order to take dash), or run acro with TotC and lose caltrops on dodge and all the good stuff from DA.

So how do you guys get around this? Thanks for any/all replies ^^

Running this build currently in WvW:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8lClOhFOBOmC0PhFqiyLEGytrLCCggcO77+wH-TVyCABAcIA+28zL6DATJYTK/We/BfU/ZinAAFnAACBoYOA-w

I’m a firm believer of the idea that the best defense for a thief is being out of range, then evades, then stealth. Ideally a combination of the above. Jana has a point about D/D though, it’s pretty much the only set that struggles to stealth or kite without being in melee first, which with the cloaked in shadows nerf means the set could really use some help.

To be honest, I’d rather see stuff like ini gain on swap become baseline. That way, you could actually do something besides auto when swapping to bow, and bow would be less essential as a secondary set without nerfing it in any way. Everybody wins.

I’ve been playing SA DD Trickery on S/P recently (tanky brawler type spec with good lockdown, swap SA for DA when stealth not essential), I’d say DD is as essential as Trickery for a non-condi thief.

I’d rather see our damage be less determined by traits tbh. We have to stack % damage modifiers to get damage that’s still below what other classes can achieve, if we had less modifiers and higher base damage values on skills (so the damage we do in full zerk stays roughly the same, if not a little higher to be competitive) we could be in a position to use soldier and cele amulets in PvP and also deal reasonable damage. This imo would leave us in a better position than going back to instagib builds.

Besides, I can already hit 3-4k on PI against glass mesmers on a pistol whip marauder/cavalier build. Making mug and PI crit would turn that into a 1800 range instagib combo, which would be plain dumb on a stealthless tanky thief lol.

Tristan.5280:

I’ll tell you why. With new elite specs you have to face more counters of SD:

- Condi spam (reaper, p/p engi, Mallyx rev)
- Condi Burst (guardian)
- Projectiles Reflects and blocks (mesmer, DH, Scrapper, aura-tempest, shield war)
- Tank builds (a lot of stuff…)

So, why should play a build that is easily countered by the current meta?

Maybe. Tbh I main thief, so being countered by the meta is pretty normal for me these days, not sure i’d notice especially :P

Bursty builds are too fun to give up imo, nice to know i’m not alone at any rate

Just wondering why I don’t see other engineers playing SD so much these days, am I missing something?

I’ve been having a lot of fun running SD with this in WvW recently:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUnUUBtbh1UBmcBEqilJjieuz79W8ZKgAYcEqg4D-TFCFABsoqid6A8TJIAXAAkU+lvaFgv/wCPAACBIYCA-w

My build’s not perfect (the healing power is a remnant from a previous heal tank experiment), but I do reasonable damage and I’m quite hard to kill. I’m sure most other people have tried it by now, so what made you swap to other builds?

Playing DD staff & P/P feels a lot like playing Devil May Cry, which is awesome but unforgiving.

Tbh I’d still say the issue is with the cele meta and our lack of interaction with it, given the first week of the ESL pro league matches had something like 80% cele builds.

The tooltip hasn’t said it evades for some time, the skill works the same as before though.

Only if it feels as good as playing Devil May Cry. So yes

Gray.9041:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Selfibi.3487:

I agree 100%, thief needs to benefit from alacrity.
ps: the title sounds like they have already changed it

I’d rather it didn’t frankly, as that would open the door for initiative to be affected by slow.

Be careful what you wish for…

slow is the opposite of quickness, not alacrity.

which brings the question, does quickness affect initiative regen? since it affects other classes’ cooldowns, one might expect it to.

You’re right, I was tired when I posted lol. With the current state of thief and the track record set by the last few patches, i’d rather leave ini unaffected by anything than have it buffed by one class’s mechanic and nerfed by chill.

Selfibi.3487:

I agree 100%, thief needs to benefit from alacrity.
ps: the title sounds like they have already changed it

I’d rather it didn’t frankly, as that would open the door for initiative to be affected by slow.

Be careful what you wish for…

Awesome, thanks ^^

What is the most commonly used DH trap build?

I main thief and some DH’s I kill easily but some I can’t even get close to, are there any things that they are specifically weak against? No QQ, I just want to learn to fight them a bit better

Only gonna comment on pistol whip as the stuff i’d say about the rest of it has been said already: if the aftercasts on sword auto were evened out so that were less clunky or at the very least more consistent, S/P would feel more fluid without having to change pistol whip at all. It’s usually an aftercast combined with the PW windup that makes me feel vulnerable when playing the set, although with daredevil it feels much better already.

assassin.7895:

I think this thread is utter garbage and cancer to all thieves and players who enjoy thief gameplay. This thread gives people the completely wrong idea, that thief might be viable.

Thief isn’t viable by any means, gets countered by almost all meta builds and has too many flaws.

I want to get this question answered:
What does thief do better than other classes? Why should anyone pick a thief in his comp?

Maybe chill and have a bit of fun? If you constantly worry about what’s viable you just get hacked off with the game in my experience. Find something you like about the class, build around it, and turn off whispers when in PvP.

While optimal builds are always viable, viable builds don’t have to be optimal.

Shinobi.3240:

I also traited acrobatics. You get a mini unhindered combatant out of it.
Its really nice.

https://youtu.be/zmcUzmRIsA4

Build is in the describtion.

Works good for me so far.

Best regards!

Shino

You’re a lot better than me at landing those bounds, nice play. Dash is more user friendly with less time put in, I guess I need more practice again lol :P

Redfeather.6401:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

I’ll still take dash. The immob immunity is gold in WvW, and the reduced damage stacks nicely with scrapper runes. The damage on interrupt trait more than makes up the damage imo. I play a tanky CC build with no stealth though, bound is definitely better for PvP in general if you play with more standard gear.

My PvE trapper build has no stealth skills, so I went to a whole lot of trouble to craft Rune of the Trapper. So far it’s been going well. Something to consider.

Yeah, trapper runes are nice. I’m playing power S/P atm though, so i’d have to see if what you gained was worth the loss of a stunbreak etc. I have trapper runes for condi though, they work nicely there

I can stealth with black powder and cluster bomb, that’s enough for me really. I kinda enjoy running stealthless, it’s satisfying when it works ^^

Pretty much the title. Leave thief damage more or less where it is, let SA have support options involving stealth as it (kinda) already does, and make acro into a spec devoted to providing team support that doesn’t involve stealth or evades.

So how would you make a support spec with a thief flavor? I’d personally love to see a mass shadowstep for allies, much like how mesmers can mass invis. Or being able to swap places with an ally who’s wounded, either would keep with the thief theme of active use of skills ideally. Comments welcome

Ario.8964:

In my opinion, thief would need a bit more than just synergy with weapon swap but it is definitely an amazing start. On top of the 6 ini gained on wep swap it’d be great if we got preparedness as a baseline for the class seeing as how it’s practically mandatory for every build on the face of tyria. After that while we are on the subject of changes to make thief possible to balance, I know it’s a scary thought but… remove stealth from EVERY class and item in the game except the thief. I know many people would throw a fit about it but just think for a sec about it, if we do this then we can balance stealth as a thief tool. No more worrying about a trapper abusing it if we make a damage reduction baseline or a blind pulse baseline, and no need to worry about another PU Mesmer crisis. Next stop to bring thief up to par and fix some of the stuff in the game is remove the ability to evade or be invuln while doing damage at the same time (skills like vault and flanking strike would stay the same as the damage happens after the evade and the skill is therefore cc-able). After those changes then you will see thief already start to be more relevant. as major bursts from other classes can then be hindered by basi venom and steal (when traited which imo should also be baseline but hey who listens to me :P)

I’m with you on the preparedness as baseline. Definitely a good idea.

Kinda with you on the removal of stealth from other classes. I’d rather see a separate kind of stealth for other classes in the form of a different buff altogether, as it totally makes sense to me for a mesmer to be able to stealth. Then again, it would give us a role that nobody else could do, which is a step in the right direction since currently we don’t have a niche beyond running fast and evades. Divided on this one.

Not with you on the removal of evades while dealing damage i’m afraid, but i’m a S/P thief so that’s only natural lol. I’m enjoying playing a stealthless tanky build with shadowstep and CC, and it just wouldn’t work without pistol whip the way it is if only because of the amount of AoE flying around. I’d rather see more options for thieves to play tank/support roles through buffs/changes to thief, rather than removing skills from everyone.

The way I see it, Anet wants thief to be a DPS class. I’m totally fine with that, but i’m not sure why we then don’t have damage to compete with ele and engi even in full glass. Either we need damage increases to fit the DPS role, or we need more versatility to make tank/support roles more viable so we can DPS whilst bringing something else to the table as well. For example, have you seen the boons rev can put out to a party? That’s how proper team support whilst remaining a DPS build looks.

I’ll still take dash. The immob immunity is gold in WvW, and the reduced damage stacks nicely with scrapper runes. The damage on interrupt trait more than makes up the damage imo. I play a tanky CC build with no stealth though, bound is definitely better for PvP in general if you play with more standard gear.

Jana.6831:

How about weaponswap regenerates 6 initative? So you could at least use one skill of your choice.
In the end there’s so much wrong with thief/the game that initiative regain wouldn’t change that much – but I’m in – at least 6 would be nice.

I just thought about balance and had a discussion with a friend earlier about that anet has to change the powercreep and what would happen with raids if they do – he said “just separate wvw, pve and pvp” I don’t think this is the best idea actually as OP classes are bad in either game mode – but maybe that would be a good start. Well, then I thought about how this would work the fastest – by recruiting top pve player (speedrunner), pvp player and wvw player. Problem with that is that my thief feels so broken that everything is OP to me – I can’t tell what’s lag, bug or really an OP class mechanic. So I feel as if I can’t really say anything about what thief needs right now.

I was about to suggest 6 ini, that seems about right tbh.

Although, i’m with other posters in this thread, thief lacks options against multiple classes now simply because all our eggs are in one basket: evades.

I play S/P with DA/DD/Trick, always using shadowstep, signet of agility and using roll for ini, scorpion wire or bandit’s defence depending on the encounter. My only other condi cleanse is on sword 2, I take impacting disruption as the damage is really nice on a CC build and trickster isn’t worth dropping bountiful theft for unless you really build around it imo.

I find I have enough evade frames to avoid most conditions, the CC helps a lot too. Generally I just gtfo and reset if hit by too many condis, if they chase you in PvP you can just port back and decap while they feel like an idiot.

I’d play around with using trickster and scorpion wire with generosity and cleansing sigils on shortbow if you’re struggling. Either that or just kill them faster and keep them CC’d.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

rennlc.7346:

They could make the daggers thrown by Lotus Training affected by Dagger Training.

Lotus training is not a dagger skill, unfortunately, so it won’t be affected. Because if that would be the case, I’d like to see Dagger Training to also affect Impairing Daggers, Distracting Daggers, and Dagger Storm.

Tbh I’d like it to affect those skills simply because they have dagger in the name and clearly use daggers. But this is ANet logic.

I’d be willing to bet that the damage was on a downed enemy, given the large number and the two vaults in a row with virtually no damage taken in between.

Either way, pointing to one skill and saying that the damage is good does not somehow make thief as a whole ok. Unless you want to say that bearbows have always been OP as well, since damage was never their problem.

I’m currently running this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZUQNAsaVl0MhSnYhTw3Jw/ELwEmXa4M0Gm7gnwWoWCIAsbA-TVDEABTcCAMXHwTKRcSZw+7PQwDAYLlgMpEydtBSp0AgjAwDHCA/V/hUACqzC-w

Most thief builds are a variant of this atm. Equipment wise, valk armor works as well as marauder, or go full zerk if you like that playstyle. I chose defensive trinkets to raise my armor, but I have full zerk trinkets for encounters I know well. Try to aim for that hp though.

For specialisations, always take trickery in one slot. For a baller power based dps spec, go deadly arts and critical strikes. For some survivability take either deadly arts or critical strikes (whichever you prefer), and take daredevil in the last slot. Acro is pretty much worthless, and shadow arts is good but situational, since a stealthed thief does no dps.

For utilities, either take the physical skill (I forget the name) or withdraw. Shadowstep and signet of agility are pretty much mandatory, last slot is your choice. Elite is up to you, whatever you feel works best.

Most thieves don’t use S/P, I just like the set. D/D or staff is best for PvE from what I hear, staff with bounding dodger (daredevil grandmaster trait) can do a lot of damage while evading most of the time.

In the end, play how you like, with what feels right. You’ll do better with a build you feel comfortable with than one that someone else tells you is leet. I hope this helps though

Ah, that’s a shame about the chill, it might be that shadow’s embrace no longer cleans non-damaging conditions that means I struggle with chill heavy rangers then :/ I’ll just get pack for the extra crit, save bothering with ice. Thanks again ^^

Sorry, I missed some information there didn’t I. I mostly roam, so some survival stats seem sensible, and I’d play power builds by preference. I’m not new to the game but fairly new to ranger, I’ve rolled a few but it’s not as straightforward a class as it first appears so I haven’t stuck with it until recently.

As for mobility, I really like S/D as a secondary set, and chill based rangers have been messing me up something chronic recently so for small scale I was thinking frost trap, for large groups signet of stone. Not sure how effective it will be: if it’s bad I’ll just get pack runes.

Given your feedback [thank you all btw ] I’d probably look at something like this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAT8YjEqQ9K2yC+rAVLGYEqv1X9WmLgvNA6xdDChCWdA-TFjDwA8U6J5IA8StCoKDM8AAAY6DhSQXqqMSzwbdA02fIyFBgUACqzC-w

Thanks again for your comments, it’s much appreciated ^^

This is the build I’d like to play:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAT8YjEqQDL2yC+rAVLGyEK/wTgG/n8Ifi7kNAOAA-T1AFwAp1Bs4CAA4BAAA-w

I’m thinking WvW primarily. I don’t know what a good level of defence is for ranger, having mostly played it in PvP. What armor/health values would you consider ‘safe’? Many thanks

Zero Day.2594:

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Let’s see if Karl is the prophesied savior of P/P.

Pretty sure since he effectively murdered p/p he’s the prophesied antichrist of p/p.

There was a prophecy…?

If it was in Equilibrium then it probably has something to do with exploding at street level.

Anyways, it’s still trig if the opponent is standing on a pebble, it’s just in a different axis. An axis with a logarithmic scale so 1 pebble = 10k range, which is why Vincent missed.

I played that soldier/zerk armor mix for years, it has practically the same EHP as full valk armor. Main differences are that with full valk you get better ferocity and a little more health whilst having 15% damage reduction through armor, and with soldier zerk you get 20% damage reduction through armor, slightly better crit chance due to the zerk pieces, and theoretically if you min/max it it’s slightly (2%) better damage due to you getting more out of sharpening stones etc.

This is an interesting post on the subject, although somewhat old and possibly outdated:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/WvW-Thief-looking-for-some-insight/first#post2674725

I swapped to valk due to condi being more of a threat at the current time and I didn’t want to be as reliant on guard stacks for health since they’ll be removed with HoT, but I have a soldier chest/legs to swap in if things just aren’t going my way that day. Honestly if you have at least 15k health and are fast with your cleanses you’ll be fine.

I’ve been playing acro/SA/trickery with S/D recently, on the basis that I’d probably have to drop DA for DD when HoT hits and I only ran 2 points in it for mug before the trait patch anyway. It seems to work, although I am bitter about having to take 2 defensive lines compared to everyone else’s one.

I also made a trapper condi build for when people cheese me, and I have engi/ranger alts that I enjoy. Just gotta stick it out for the time being unfortunately.

epoc.7941:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

So with the multitude of reveal skills now at other classes’ disposal, isn’t it about time we got a way to counter it?

I’m thinking a trait or something that allows blinding powder (the deception utility) to remove reveal and stealth on use. The reason I’m thinking about this skill is that it’s a 40s cooldown vs the 20-30s cooldown of most reveal skills, which would make it good when revealed once but not twice so it wouldn’t remove the point of reveal completely.

This has an obvious side effect: double backstabs. Triple maybe, if you’re lucky with improv. Either this can be left as is if the damage is deemed fair, or more likely reveal can be split into 2 types: self reveal and externally applied reveal. Last I checked, mesmer and thief stealth had separate icons on your bar, so this shouldn’t be difficult to code.

Make it so thief can only remove externally applied reveal and you still have the same burst etc, but there would be some counter-play to lock on etc. Doing this would also make stealth trap less of a middle finger to the class than it currently is, whilst still leaving you open to be trapped multiple times if you’re dumb.

Thoughts?

I’ll try to say this politely. But no absolutely not. The best counter play to reveal is forcing your opponent to waste his reveal on a trivial stealth not your key stealth
i.e. Stealthing defensively to break combat or cleanse condis
Stealthing in Sr which usually is also defensive but it has a huge tell and it’s common knowledge it’s a long stealth
It becomes a game of baiting people out and this is not just about reveal its about everything if you know other profession you can tel what they’re runnin especially in pvp matches where you run into an opponent several times it becomes a chess game and I feel like that’s often lacking is players thinking in that manner and instead want things to come to them instead of out playing their opponent not just bc your class is op

To me, that argument is like saying that you’re going to get bit by a dog in 5s, but you can choose where you get kittenoosing to get bit in the hand as it’s not vital is not counter-play, that’s damage mitigation. Might be a difference of opinion there though.

I know that technically any attack can be mitigated by foreseeing and dodging it. That is also true for other classes however, so why can they have absolute counters to certain things (invuln when CC’d and about to be burst, diamond skin etc) but we can’t have one way of cleansing reveal? I’m asking for one reveal cleanse on a higher cooldown than reveal skills, that’s only available to say SA players, and that can’t be used to remove self applied reveal. I don’t think that would be game breaking really.

(Don’t take my post as aggressive btw, it’s not meant like that, i’m just tired and can’t find the right words today.)

BrunoBRS.5178:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

BrunoBRS.5178:

honestly, my only problem with review is sic’em, because it’s an instant-cast, undodgeable, unblockable reveal that doesn’t require a target and can hit stealthed foes. the only other instant reveal is on the engineer, and that requires a target.

i don’t mind when someone reveals me when i’m about to get in stealth. i don’t mind failing to avoid the AoE reveal skill’s tell after i’m in stealth. i mind being in stealth and not being able to defend myself from the counter.

I’d say lock on is the worst actually. Sic’em needs a target, lock on just reveals you if I tag you with an AoE when you’re stealthed. Killed more than a couple thieves just by using rifle 3 in the vague direction of a refuge.

Tbh I’d take any of the ideas in this thread, I’d love more stealthless build love but since D/P looks to remain meta it’d be nice if reveal wasn’t such a hard counter. Scrapping reveal and starting over is best, but least likely tbh. Keep reveal a counter to stealth, but give us something to fight it with at least.

nope, i tested that and was a victim of that, and had a friend on ranger test that too. sic’em doesn’t require target. see a shadow refuge? sic’em! free thief.

lock-on requires you to land a hit though, so there’s counter play there (read: the thief can still dodge while in stealth, and if the thief is out of dodges, well, tough luck). and i’m aaaaaaaaaaalmost sure that the analyze toolbelt skill (utility goggles) requires a target before being used, but it could be like sic’em.

Wow, if that’s true then yes, sic ’em is the worst. Until HoT when stealth gyro is playable anyways.

Yeah, lock on does require a hit. Although since the majority of thieves blow their dodges before refuging as a last resort, and the ones that know not to do that are usually good enough to kill me without it, that’s rarely an issue tbh. It’s sad how much fun reveal skills are when you’re the one doing it, as you know how much of a middle finger it is to the class.

stealth gyro has a cast animation, and a shockwave-like effect (like mass invis) that you can dodge.

like i said, i don’t mind being outplayed. if someone foresees my plays and counters it, that’s cool. it’s when i have no way to defend myself from it that i call bullkitten.

I totally agree with that. If they were all dodgeable, that would be alright, but the problem with sic’em and lock on is that by the time you know they’re running it you’re already revealed. That needs toning down or a (single) counter skill imo.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

BrunoBRS.5178:

honestly, my only problem with review is sic’em, because it’s an instant-cast, undodgeable, unblockable reveal that doesn’t require a target and can hit stealthed foes. the only other instant reveal is on the engineer, and that requires a target.

i don’t mind when someone reveals me when i’m about to get in stealth. i don’t mind failing to avoid the AoE reveal skill’s tell after i’m in stealth. i mind being in stealth and not being able to defend myself from the counter.

I’d say lock on is the worst actually. Sic’em needs a target, lock on just reveals you if I tag you with an AoE when you’re stealthed. Killed more than a couple thieves just by using rifle 3 in the vague direction of a refuge.

Tbh I’d take any of the ideas in this thread, I’d love more stealthless build love but since D/P looks to remain meta it’d be nice if reveal wasn’t such a hard counter. Scrapping reveal and starting over is best, but least likely tbh. Keep reveal a counter to stealth, but give us something to fight it with at least.

nope, i tested that and was a victim of that, and had a friend on ranger test that too. sic’em doesn’t require target. see a shadow refuge? sic’em! free thief.

lock-on requires you to land a hit though, so there’s counter play there (read: the thief can still dodge while in stealth, and if the thief is out of dodges, well, tough luck). and i’m aaaaaaaaaaalmost sure that the analyze toolbelt skill (utility goggles) requires a target before being used, but it could be like sic’em.

Wow, if that’s true then yes, sic ’em is the worst. Until HoT when stealth gyro is playable anyways.

Yeah, lock on does require a hit. Although since the majority of thieves blow their dodges before refuging as a last resort, and the ones that know not to do that are usually good enough to kill me without it, that’s rarely an issue tbh. It’s sad how much fun reveal skills are when you’re the one doing it, as you know how much of a middle finger it is to the class.

BrunoBRS.5178:

honestly, my only problem with review is sic’em, because it’s an instant-cast, undodgeable, unblockable reveal that doesn’t require a target and can hit stealthed foes. the only other instant reveal is on the engineer, and that requires a target.

i don’t mind when someone reveals me when i’m about to get in stealth. i don’t mind failing to avoid the AoE reveal skill’s tell after i’m in stealth. i mind being in stealth and not being able to defend myself from the counter.

I’d say lock on is the worst actually. Sic’em needs a target, lock on just reveals you if I tag you with an AoE when you’re stealthed. Killed more than a couple thieves just by using rifle 3 in the vague direction of a refuge.

Tbh I’d take any of the ideas in this thread, I’d love more stealthless build love but since D/P looks to remain meta it’d be nice if reveal wasn’t such a hard counter. Scrapping reveal and starting over is best, but least likely tbh. Keep reveal a counter to stealth, but give us something to fight it with at least.

So with the multitude of reveal skills now at other classes’ disposal, isn’t it about time we got a way to counter it?

I’m thinking a trait or something that allows blinding powder (the deception utility) to remove reveal and stealth on use. The reason I’m thinking about this skill is that it’s a 40s cooldown vs the 20-30s cooldown of most reveal skills, which would make it good when revealed once but not twice so it wouldn’t remove the point of reveal completely.

This has an obvious side effect: double backstabs. Triple maybe, if you’re lucky with improv. Either this can be left as is if the damage is deemed fair, or more likely reveal can be split into 2 types: self reveal and externally applied reveal. Last I checked, mesmer and thief stealth had separate icons on your bar, so this shouldn’t be difficult to code.

Make it so thief can only remove externally applied reveal and you still have the same burst etc, but there would be some counter-play to lock on etc. Doing this would also make stealth trap less of a middle finger to the class than it currently is, whilst still leaving you open to be trapped multiple times if you’re dumb.

Thoughts?