Guild Wars 2

Obsidian.1328:

It’s certainly not canon fact Adelbern got more stubborn in Proph, that happened in EotN and later.

No, he was stubborn and refused Kryta. Nothing indicated he changed in that regard. One description was that he “circled the wagons and held onto what was left”. It only is rational as more of that slipped away, he’d become crazier.

It’s also not canon fact the Charr forces were not routed. It’s outright stated as such in Empire Divided(which Jess wrote), not to mention numerous allusions to such and this line in Last Day Dawns from one of Adelbern’s guards: “I did not survive the Charr invasion only to be slain by these demons!” By the time of that event, those few Charr there are supposed to represent the remaining Charr forces dude…

The Charr didn’t run away, they were already dead. …until the EotN reboot that is.

A: That quote doesn’t say the war is over. It just says he survived. Empire divided also said that Adelbern was making treaties with Kryta, and Jess wrote Adelbern’s utter hatred of Kryta in all things. So explain that.
B: So in the period between players leaving Ascalon, and them returning to deal with the Titans, the Charr army of thousands that put fear into Rurik’s mind (and he was the one wanting to take the fight to the Charr, he knows Ascalon’s military strength) has been destroyed or weakened, despite the fact we know that ASCALON’s army has been withered and vastly weakened since Rurik left.

I see lines that could be TAKEN as if the war was over, but nothing that factually an explicitly says the Charr were defeated.

Hell, Adelbern says this at the end of Last day dawns.

“All that I have left is this antiquated set of armor and the remains of this tattered kingdom.” Yep, sounds like a kingdom that is recovering and/or has won. :P

I have a feeling he’ll be more involved. Especially since those vines are supposed to be part of him.

I for fun glided down to the lowest part of the center chasm in Verdant Brink, and noticed below the dark (It looks like water at one point, then just a chasm at another), every single big tendril was actively moving around.

Hopefully they do some unique racial dialogue for each race/unique things in different parts of the story, and play on the Sylvari player character-mordremoth relationship more.

So everybody else listed under “writers” simply did nothing and sat aside, even for Prophecies?

Regardless, if he left the company, then you can’t complain about things MAYBE changing (Adelbern’s descent to insanity fits well with his portrayal in prophecies. As he lost more and more, he went more mad.) because it’s not like the guy is still around to direct things.

We aren’t talking about a Traviss level rewriting here, just a progression. It is canon FACT Adelbern grew even more stubborn as time went on, and never budged on his hate of Krytans. It is canon FACT that the charr forces were not routed during the events of Prophecies. The Titans were defeated and the leaders maybe killed, but the army was not.

It’s amusing when people describe all charr in GW1 as wanting to slaughter humans, but then the moment the leading warband gets killed, the charr all apparently ran away :P.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Honestly, from what things seem, it might have meant to be 5,000 died, rather than survived.

As for timeframe – dialogue does seem to imply that it was only a few days for the primary battle (what we players did during EfLA and BfLA). People suggest a full month because of how Anet proclaimed the Living World would function back when it was newer – that it was real time. But as we saw with Origins of Madness, this wasn’t true (that was a one time event; indications would dictate the events of Escape from LA and Battle for LA were also one-time overall). You can thank Anet’s back-and-forth nature as of late (read: since GW2’s release).

Yeah, I remember them offically stating the Marionette battle happened a single time, and was a win.

We’ll likely see merry hell with HoT release, since it takes place directly at the end of season 2 but it’s been a good bit of time IRL :P.

witcher.3197:

You’d think Anet would take this opportunity and expand this plot because it has so much potential. But no. Eversince the release of GW2, Anet demonized Ascalonian humans and gave the middlefinger to all of the GW1 fans. We even have events to destroy their statues, their legacy.. where can I do the same to the charr?

They have not demonized ascalonians. It’s noted the ghost are NOT sane and themselves (for 99% of them at least), and the only ones who are shown in a bad light are the ones who literally would BOMB HUMANS instead of accepting a rough peace.

Most of the time the statue destruction that I’ve seen is done for one reason. It breaks the ghosts strength in an area. Would you rather the charr be idiots at let the ghost strength rise higher an threaten even more people in the Ascalon region?

It’s a shame to see Anet destroy this part of the lore. I bet Rytlock will channel Rurik and undo the foefire too, freeing the land from those evil evil humans…

TL;DR Anet made this great debate into a onesided arguement by supporting the charr in every possible situation and hating on Ascalonians.

However, as we know it right now, it’s impossible for Rytlock to dispell the foefire, as it requires somebody of the Royal bloodline.

And that’d be freeing the land of the ghosts who KILL EVERYTHING, humans included. It’d free all those souls from endless war and torture, a curse that was started by Adelbern.

I suppose you missed the fact that the peace treaty actually gives the entire fields of ruin area to Ebonhawke/humanity right?

Donari.5237:

There weren’t that many survivors, though. Per the devs it was a city of 40,000 inhabitants and only 5,000 lived through the attack.

Still, they could be determined to preserve the way of life and culture in which they grew up. 5,000 is enough to form a core to rebuild traditions.

I remember numbers in the thousands, but for some reason the number I think of is 15k?

I hope they clear up some of the details about the battle of LA, such as death toll, length, etc. Some say it lasted a month (which is quite crazy), I think it lasted a few days, maybe a week total from opening attack to that post-battle LA instance.

Hellspawn Austin.6819:

There’s a reference Rat-Tastrophe about fighting the great destroyer in some of the dialog.

My biggest problem is Ogden Stonehealer.
He would remember at least some of the people who fought the Great Destroyer with him.

And what point would he mention them? Or would modern GW2 characters ask about them?

He probably does remember them. The question is, does he have a reason to bring them up? I remember some people from high school, but never talk about them because there is no reason to.

edit: This falls into “Having the mentions be natural and not forced.” It’d seem really, REALLY odd for Odgen to suddenly start talking about the GW1 hero. Especially since he only encountered them during the EOTN events basically.

Depends how the setup goes. Is it a hivemind and the champion is merely voicing the orders? Or is the champion it’s own being and commanding forces?

Nilkemia.8507:

I like the voice and thinks it’s a neat menacing touch, and since sylvari are now considered related to it, it makes sense that they could interpret what it says to an extent.

That being said…it does make it feel a bit less dragon of nature-ish to have it giving out commands like that, making it seem more like a dragon champion instead.

Perhaps have a low growl/whisper/other unintelligible noise when it speaks, but have words that we understand pop up in it, like “kill”, “capture”, “bring them to me”, “I hear/see you”. Or perhaps flashes of images like Konig suggested referring to what it wants the minions to do/are doing.

That was actually something I was thinking about. What if, similar to Zhaitan, mordemoth has a champion (or several) acting as it’s Voice/mouth? And that specific champion is what we are hearing.

BrotherBelial.3094:

I thought this was going to be about LA in GW1, now I loved that place. Would be cool to see that place in GW2 in a fractal or something.

On topic. I like the new LA over pre cabbage. It just looked a mess, I know that was kind of the point, but it felt more like a ship grave years than a city, and the people living there scavengers. New LA feels like a city of commerce. And run by pirates. Cannons everywhere. No one is taking there loot!

I like the new one because it looks like a city. In the battle of LA period, I remember hearing a big number for LA population (I forget it exactly now), but some people responded with a simple line.
“where did they live?” old GW2 LA simply didn’t have much in terms of mass housing. Not to mention it was basically defenseless :P.

The original LA in GW2 felt like the origin, a rough town built out of crashed ships, and less of what it actually was, which is a free city and a massive trade center.

Tuskin.2548:

Its interesting that after Scarlet Destroyed Lion’s Arch and the city being rebuilt, Lion’s Arch really hasn’t changed much. Sure the city looks completely different but Lion’s Arch is still ruled by the same council of pirates, the same Lionguard guard the city and protect the trade routes, the city is still a refuge for many pirates, outcasts, refugees, deserters and escaped criminals. There is still a pirate run black market though in a different cave, the city is still neutral and has separate laws than its neighbor Kryta.

A: Why would it be different? It’s the same surviving population and government members…
B: Notable thing. The captain’s council aren’t pirates. They talk and may have BEEN pirates, but they are NOT pirates now.
C: Same as A, why would the lionguard change? They weren’t wiped out, just forced from the city.
D: It’s a melting pot and an open city. Many types of people arrive and stay here, many are seeking a new life away from old troubles. Some are bad, but a lot simply aren’t.
E: The actual PIRATE merchants are only allowed to operate if they play by the Council’s rules. Kiel mentions that while it may give people the idea that the council supports/allows pirating, it was done purely so they could keep an eye on the pirates.
F: Again, ties into A and C. The LA leadership was not killed off during Scarlet’s attack. After she died, they returned to the city.

Scarlet ruined the town, but she didn’t wipe out the Government, military forces, or people of LA.

I noticed in my tiny bit of playing in Verdant Brink, my revenant would say stuff (that appears in chatbox and was voiced) at like event completions and all. I wonder if there is plans to add in more Character dialogue randomly across the entire world?

I found the voice interesting, but what was more interesting was Canach’s comment toward the commander (sylvari revenant I just made). “Weak willed Sylvari fail to it, the rest, myself and the commander especially, fight back.”

I loved the new open conversations involving the player though.

edit: Actually, the voice isn’t breaking lore at all. Scarlet and Aerin both heard voices as they went mad. As somebody else said, perhaps the voice is merely the translation of orders. We are experiencing what Scarlet went through, but our willpower is greater (for now).

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

Yet, we did. Prophecies takes place in under a year, and Factions starts after it. We helped do the test, and in WiK, the captain of the settlement states they had lived in Kryta peacefully for years by then. The Mantle didn’t do anything to them.

Umm…the Mursaat stopped taking Chosen after the Flameseeker Prophecies concluded. The Door of Komalie was closed.

And the test of the chosen was performed AFTER the refugees got there. It’s noted fact that the White Mantle left the Ascalon settlement alone until the WiK events. Therefore if they truly were enslaving and wanting to convert the Ascalon people, they did a kitten poor job at it.

EotN… “…is intended to tie the Guild Wars storyline with that of Guild Wars 2” Everything in that campaign and beyond(no pun intended) is set-up for GW2. And no, EotN was not written by anyone in Proph…they weren’t even on the staff at that time. Just ask Rednik, he’ll tell ya! Denying that is white-washing GW1 lore and akin to rewriting fictional history.

Oh really. Check this very topic.

Dante.1763:

Well, Heres the writers who wrote Nightfall: From http://gw1101.gtm.guildwars.com/products/nightfall/features/nightfallcredits.php
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

And heres the writers who wrote Prophecies: From the Wiki http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_credits#Writers
Stacie Magelssen
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

Theres only a one person absence in between the two games.

And heres the credits for Eye of the North, again for the writers.

Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Caitlin Kittredge
Stacie Magelssen
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

And heres the credit list for GW2: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Writers
Angel Leigh McCoy
Bobby Stein
David Wilson
John Ryan
Matt Forbeck
Peter Fries
Scott McGough

The biggest change in staff was between EoTn and when GW2 was published, at least for the writing team ^^

EOTN writing staff had the same people from Prophecies.

Um…he still asked for help. It was in true Adelbern-pompous fashion, but it was still asking for help. I don’t know why you are yelling, not all the water was tar, nor all the dirt ash.
Also, you give up too easy, mate.

I don’t see a single line from Adelbern in Last Day Dawns implying he is asking for help.
Glint says he cannot win the battle, and RIGA goes “Thank the gods you have come!” Adelbern doesn’t say a word to the player asking for help.

Almost all of the water was Tar, and there was a lot of Ash. Name a single spot where you saw water in large amounts in post-searing. You had an easier time finding Tar then water, as Rurik’s line states.

I give up easy? Nah. I prefer to go with “Would I raise a family in that environment? Hell kittening no.” What’s a common post-apocalyptic wasteland story arc? “We are going this way. Why? Because we have heard of food and water in abundance there.” or “There are people and safety there.”

Obsidian.1328:

It wasn’t sterilized, but it was turned into a wasteland. In your response, would you choose to live there if it was lush green lands that had turned to wasteland 2 years ago?

Didn’t the Charr do exactly that?

And the charr were invading. Besides, look at the areas Flame Legion hold (They were leaders back then). Very burnt and wasteland-like.

I know you were talking about Deldrimor…that was my point. If Ascalon wasn’t besieged, then it follows that they could still get supplies in from somewhere.

If Adelbern would trade with anybody. Which is the key point. The main source of easy supplies would be Kryta, who he refuses to trade with. Sure, the borders weren’t closed or under constant watch from the charr for the most part, but there wasn’t any official, current trading agreements.

And? How does that matter, he was still causing trouble, regardless of professed affiliation.

Causing trouble by giving supplies to an orphanage? (One of the first things we see him do).

So you think no one thought it odd that someone came in and made it illegal to worship the Six anymore, and that they had to start worshipping these new gods? I don’t think so.

Actually, if you bothered to pay attention, it was an offical white mantle rule that the temple of ages was not to be touched. You got extra stuff if you converted, but they did not BAN worshipping of the five gods. The ONLY time I recall anything like that happening was during WiK, where the Mantle went very extreme in trying to keep their rule.

There was a local statue of Melandru close to the temple of tolerance. A villager goes “Dwayna, please help me!”

Not that far, silly. I meant south of the explorable area in Ascalon. You’re again assuming all of Ascalon was scorched because it’s brown on the world map.

Because the manual is pretty explicit that Ascalon became a WASTELAND. Rurik states similar lines as well. They don’t have some hidden, lush farmland and clean rivers and lakes south of the playable area and still have Ascalon be a wasteland.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/0/0b/Tyria_clean_map_2.jpg The green areas south of Ascalon are the mountains. There isn’t that much area south of the playable zones.

Dude…they don’t leave their home for good because of a hurricane. They find shelter for the night and come back to it the next day. If it’s destroyed, they either rebuild or leave if they can’t afford it. But to answer your question, yes I would stay if my home got turned to ash. I would see it as my duty to defend and rebuild it. It bore me, nurtured me, and raised me…why would I leave it when it needs me most? There’s a reason why the word “motherland” exists, and it’s not referring to the land my mother came from…

Again, there is ‘defending your home’ and “Being stubborn and dying.” If an army of zombies swarmed toward your home, would you sit there and not leave, even though you cannot defeat them all and would surely die? You would never move away from you home for any reason at all. Whether it’s lack of food and water in the area, dangers that will kill you, your friends and family, or other reasons?

Again, there is defending your country and homeland, and “Holy kitten you are so stubborn you are going to die.”

But they weren’t all going to die. GW2 turned it into a hopeless crusade…for all the reasons I’ve mentioned before. In GW1 they were surviving just fine.
[/quote]

Your version of “Just fine” and mine are VASTLY, incredibly different.

I look at post-searing Ascalon and I see a ruined nation clinging onto scraps. They are no intact towns or buildings, just ruins and people taking shelter in the ruins. There is more tar and ash then water and farmland. Charr are constantly attacking, so it’s dangerous, and with the wall broken and ruined, and the army withered, it’s even more dangerous.

They may have been surviving for the short term, but they were NOT fine. These are people used to a lush green landscape, not a wasteland.

Obsidian.1328:

The Test of the Chosen happened once a year in summer…it would have been incredibly coincidental had the Ascalon Refugees arrived on that same day. Or even week.

Yet, we did. Prophecies takes place in under a year, and Factions starts after it. We helped do the test, and in WiK, the captain of the settlement states they had lived in Kryta peacefully for years by then. The Mantle didn’t do anything to them.

You just messed up. If one line can’t remove everything he previously did, then one line can’t condemn him either. The one thing that every Adelbern critic points to was his banishment of Rurik. Beyond, along with all of EotN, is GW2 setup and can’t be included as evidence…Ascalon’s fate in the future GW2 narrative had already been decided by ANet by then(@2006). What other “bad” things did Adelbern do, prior to GW2 development, besides kick his son out? Try to arrest a Mantle rep? That’s it? Please.

He tried to charge an ambassador for treason, the reasons being “He’s Krytan” and “He gave food and supplies to an orphanage.” Note, Adelbern NEVER talks about him being Mantle. It’s purely “HE’S KRYTAN.” He’s noted to be insanely stubborn and refuses to get over the last guild war. Beyond can be included as evidence because IT IS GUILD WARS 1 CONTENT. It was MADE by GW1 staff.

EOTN was written by a number of the same people who wrote Prophecies. I load it from GW1, therefore it is GW1 content. Denying it is cherry-picking GW1 lore. Yes, beyond is setting up GW2, but the item in that is the Shining blade ambassador being forced to sit outside AC for a long time, and then disappearing.

He did accept help…from the PC to go kill their gods the Titans. He even asks you to help at the party in Droknar’s at the end of Proph.

Adelbern’s popularity was hit and miss. I could just as easily come up with quotes from NPC’s who swore he was the bestest king evar! The narrative pushes the PC toward Rurik because it serves the overall story, not the other way around. The writer needed some way to convince the PC to leave his home and get on with the real meat and potatoes of the story. Ruriks fight with his dad was it. Had the writer made it so that the PC simply leaves on his own volition, it would have been bad storytelling. Why on earth should I leave my home when everyone else is staying? Oh okay, I’m following the prince out…that sounds better. His dad is such a meanie anyway!

Think about it.

Actually, Glint told us to go help him. Adelbern not once asked for help with the titans. Glancing over the dialogue, it comes across more as a “Go protect him because he will get himself killed.” Also, he doesn’t really ask for help in the post-campaign scene in prophecies.

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

Why would you leave when everybody else is staying? Maybe you are that sane person who doesn’t want to LIVE IN A WASTELAND WITH MORE TAR THEN WATER.

Maybe you and your group decide to travel across the mountains because you want a better, safer life and you know Kryta is better off then Ascalon.

Rurik leaving made sense, 100%. He saw the wasteland that Ascalon became. He saw the armies of the charr, and how a mighty legend like stormcaller really didn’t do much to change the war for the better. He saw a losing fight and decided it was better to try to get everybody out before they all died.

Obsidian.1328:

I wasn’t talking about WiK, the Shining Blade were Krytans. Krytans fighting Kyrtans = civil war…weather the general populace knew about it or not is irrelevant.

As of that stage, the shining blade were basically a group of bandits. If we really went that way, we’d say that Ascalon was in civil war before the searing because of the royalists!

If my home was the Australian desert? Yes. Why wouldn’t I? The Searing didn’t sterilize the land, it was recovering. There were patches of green all over, you just had to find them.

What green spots were in post searing Ascalon? I explored the entire area for 100% map completion, and I recall no true green spots.

Prince Rurik: “As a boy I spent much time in these lands. Look at them now.”
Prince Rurik: “Instead of ponds and streams we have pools of bubbling tar and rivers of sludge. It saddens me to see Ascalon in ruins.”

It wasn’t sterilized, but it was turned into a wasteland. In your response, would you choose to live there if it was lush green lands that had turned to wasteland 2 years ago? It’s recovered 250 years later, a surprising amount to my viewpoint personally.

So, Ascalon didn’t have any stockpiled food? And since when was Ascalon besieged? Overran is not the same thing, the bulk of the Charr army passed through Ascalon like a freight train on their way to Orr, but they didn’t seige the place up. They didn’t even have it surrounded.

And I was talking about the bloody Deldrimor, not Ascalon. You asked about the dwarves in a siege, I responded about the dwarves. I’m fairly sure Ascalon’s food stockpiles didn’t expect the land to be ruined and devastated by the searing.

Ascalon wasn’t perhaps sieged, but it was under constant attack basically.

But he was asking for something in return…that’s the whole point. When you set out to convert a nation to your own religion, you don’t tell the guys in charge you’re going to do that. That would be really stupid. Rurik had no reason to disbelieve Zain, but Zain was lying to him nonetheless.

And look at Adelbern and Tydus’s comment about Zain. It’s not “White mantle plot.” It’s “KRYTAN plot.” They distrusted him purely because he was Krytan.

The Mantle just saved them from the Charr, most were too scared to say anything. They didn’t want to seem ungrateful perhaps? I don’t know, I don’t understand the Krytan psyche here…all they did was trade liberty for life here. To say no Krytan theoretically knew something was wrong with the Mantle is a pretty large delusion.

Yet even in the mission about the chosen, it’s a split. Some seem happy for the chosen, others grumble about less hands to work the fields. You are making this part far more complex then it is. Simply put, the Krytan government fled or was destroyed, and the White Mantle stepped in. Like the Empire from star wars or the Dominion in starcraft, outlying regions/outspoken areas saw the worst of it, but the bulk of citizens simply continued living without seeing what was really happening.

Had the Mantle control lasted more then a few years, things would’ve turned. Two years isn’t that odd for somebody to not come home from an academy from. But if it had been 10 years with nobody coming back? That’s weird.

Bringing their own food from the north, depending on the sources they ate humans as well.

If the Charr can bring in supplies from “the north somewhere” then the Ascalons can bring in supplies “from the south somewhere”. You simply cannot suppose it’s possible for one and not the other.[/quote]

A: Charr were ‘invading’ from the north.
B: Ascalon became isolationist, and had mountains to the south of it. South of those was the crystal desert. So who would be sending supplies north across a desert and mountains to Ascalon?

If it was my home, of course I would. It’s borders weren’t closed, they were just undefined. The PC only ever got to explore maybe a quarter of the whole kingdom.

The borders weren’t closed, but Adelbern refused the offers of help given. He basically turned it into an isolated nation. And I doubt your conviction would actually last. You are saying you would keep your family, friends, etc in a lush area turned wasteland, instead of following Rurik to an area that is STILL lush and fertile? You’d rather hunt for good water instead of simply walking down to a river?

All because “It’s your home.” People move all the time, for many reasons. It’s that mindset that results in deaths during severe weather because instead of moving someplace safe, they sit in their home “THIS IS MY HOME, I AM NOT LEAVING!” and then find their homes collapsed on them from hurricanes.

Again, there is defending your country and homeland, and “Holy kitten you are so stubborn you are going to die.”

Frosch.7809:

The purpose of the Krytan ambassador was most likely to lure the Ascalonians to Kryta so that the Unseen could search for The Chosen among them, therefore the instincts of Adelbern not to trust him were quite correct, although for the wrong reasons.

However, the Ascalon settlement in Kryta was not tested for Chosen during their stay there… at all. Infact, They lived peacefully in Kryta and had no issues with the White Mantle until the civil war in GW beyond. We personally do the test of the chosen, and we aren’t close to the Settlement.

Ascalon hadn’t fallen at the end of the GW1 timeline, 1080, and the last quest we get to play shows a defeat of a Charr army (yes, those groups represent an army in GW1) together with their Titan gods. The GW2 lore was one possibility of what could happen, not necessarily the only one. It was created to turn the Charr into a playable species, and clearly overdone, which shows favouritism towards the Charr in my opinion.

Ascalon was still a wasteland, and the way people describe the Charr(the anti-charr people here), they would continue fighting. And Ascalon’s army and defenses were withered and greatly weakened since Rurik left Ascalon/

This quest also shows that Adelbern was not the madman people claim he already was during the times of GW1 (his lines in The Last Day dawns have been posted here often enough, i won’t do that again). That, also, is GW2 storywriting. And yes there were people in Ascalon who believed their king, that they could defend themselves, that there was no reason to leave with Rurik. And how many of those who left did reach safety in Kryta? Only to get into a civil war with White Mantle Inquisition destroying their settlement. Of course leaving gave you a chance to survive, no doubt about that. Chances were also high you got clubbed by an Ettin along the way.

One line does not remove everything he previously did or said. One line does not magically make him a changed man. Later on in Beyond, we see him keeping the Shining blade ambassador outside of the city, and she personally says he would rather all Krytans die before listening to her. EOTN had the same writers as Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall. The biggest writing staff changes happened from EOTN to GW2.

And honestly, the only surviving Ascalons are directly descended from Rurik’s group or the Ebonhawke group.

Oh, and while some believed in Adelbern, it’s stated explicitly in the manual…

“Already the rumbling of the winds of change can be heard in the streets. People are frightened. They wonder what will become of them. Some even wonder aloud if Adelbern has lost what it takes to steer Ascalon back from the brink. They wish to see the prince step up and take command of the kingdom. Perhaps under his guidance, the people of Ascalon will live on to see another golden age. "

That a lot of people wanted to see Rurik take the throne, and thought with Rurik as king, Ascalon would prosper again.

Even if Adelbern, in the end, grew calmer, he was still leading an isolationist state. The only way for Ascalon to have survived IMO is IF they had accepted help.

Obsidian.1328:

That war ended when Dagnar Stonepate died in Sorrow’s Furnace at the PC’s hand, the rest of the Stone Summit fled to the far Shivs. Besides, why would you say Kryta could have given Ascalon aid if they were in a civil war too? Can’t have it both ways.
Also, If the writer had meant to portray Ascalon as both 100% scorched earth and 100% unsupply-able, why did so many stick around? Adelbern’s will?? Did they all eat ash and drink tar?? You should be careful not to take visual representations of carnage as indicative of RL supply issues. How did we have anything to eat on the Fire Islands? or the Realm of Torment? What did the Deldrimor eat while being besieged by the Stone Summit for that matter? WHY IS THERE NO FOOD AROUND?? Really?

Dagnar didn’t die at Sorrow’s Furnace, and IIRC, that happened AFTER the Lich was defeated (And it was a combo of both that results in a lot of Sorrow’s Furnance fleeing). Still, it comes across as if Adelbern made no efforts to contact other nations.

Krytan was offering Aid before the civil war (As White Mantle), and then in War in Kryta, what the shining blade/Queen’s forces were saying was “You help us out right now military-wise, WE WILL return the favor and help you out military and food-wise.”

Ascalon was a wasteland, the manual is pretty kitten explicit. Sure, you can find food and water (Some theorize humans ate Charr during that period), but not a lot. Would you live in the middle of the Australian desert, or in the forests of the American east coast?

Obviously, we packed our own food for realm of torment and ring of fire. Deldrimor would’ve eaten food that was stockpiled (The point of a siege is they CAN’T get food from outside…)

His primary job was to bring Ascalon into the Mantle fold, offering aid was a means to an end. If a diplomat from a country you were just at war with was outside your capital offering free aid, while spouting false-god rhetoric, handing out unknown magical items, and bribing the army…I think I’d have him arrested too.

Note, he was almost arrested after handing food and supplies to an ORPHANAGE. The unknown items were AFTER that. Meanwhile Rurik’s response. Also was before the bribing as well from what I can read.

" Prince Rurik: “Greetings Ambassador Zain. Let me be the first to welcome you to Ascalon.”
Ambassador Zain: “Ah, Prince Rurik. I thank you for your kind words. I will admit, I was nervous about this meeting. Our initial reception here in Ascalon City has been…less than warm.”
Prince Rurik: “So I have heard. I apologize for my father. He means well and does what he thinks is best for his country, but sometimes his stubborn memory of the last Guild War gets in his way.”
Ambassador Zain: “The days of war between our two nations are over. We are here in the name of Kryta to give aid to Ascalon. We ask for nothing in return, and wish only to be of service.”
Prince Rurik: “We would be foolish to allow our pride to stand in the way of such a generous offer.”
Ambassador Zain: “Now I see why the people of Ascalon so admire you, Rurik. When it is your turn, you will be a good king. A good king indeed.”
Prince Rurik: “Thank you, Ambassador. Now I must take my leave. I will talk with the king. Perhaps I can change his mind and gain you access to the city.”

From the same wiki page: “It is the responsibility of the White Mantle to oversee the other humans and impose upon them the rules and laws of the Unseen Ones.” The Krytans basically gave up their freedom to survive. Also from that page: “They have even sent an ambassador to Ascalon to further their teachings in other lands.” Thanks for guiding me to that page, it backs up my earlier point nicely.

If they were so obviously enslaving, the shining blade would have exploded into a huge force. No, for the two years, they covered their tracks well enough the general population didn’t know kitten was up.

Nor were all the Ascalons. Tell me, how did the Charr survive in Ascalon if it was all burning?

Bringing their own food from the north, depending on the sources they ate humans as well.

And that is why not everyone is a soldier. They fight for others who can not, or will not, fight. Wherever you live, just know that there is someone who stands on a line somewhere who ensures your safety and peace. Remember Chamberlain’s folly.

Even soldiers know that sometimes, defending an area is pointless. Ascalon was ruined. It’s borders closed by Adelbern’s isolation.
You would rather stay in Ascalon in that condition, instead of seeking a better life that isn’t besieged by Charr daily? Instead of clean rivers and grasslands, ash covered wastes and tar for children to play in?

Obsidian.1328:

Fun fact – GW2 Adelbern =/= GW1 Adelbern. Learn to think critically and find reasons why writers and narrative designers do what they do. GW1 Adelbern was stubborn and a bad father, but he was no genocidal maniac. That’s GW2 writing. He’s a fall-guy, used to validate the Charr hegemony in Ascalon. Nothing more.

Stubborn, refuse to accept loss or defeat, hate krytans with a passion… Doesn’t seem like he changed that much, just that his crazy parts got worse as time went on.

Adelbern in GW1 refused to accept any and all aid offered, simply because of the nation it was coming from. Note, then Tydus was talking about those Sextant, he didn’t say “White Mantle plot.” he said “KRYTAN plot.” Adelbern was the reason Ascalon finally died.

Obsidian.1328:

I didn’t mean Kryta or Elona. The Deldrimor were allied with them, and the bulk of Ascalon(which we don’t get to see) was south of the explorable area.

Ah yeah, Deldrimor who are dealing with civil war, and the southern part of Ascalon which was just as burnt as the playable area.

Zain’s intentions were probably why Adelbern treated him as such: 1) He was Mantle and wanted to convert Ascalons to worshipping Mursaat, 2) He was known to be handing out Eldritch sextants to Ascalon merchants for reasons never explained, and 3) he bribed Ascalon guards for protection. Besides, Tydus even stated: “King Adelbern has too much respect for the old laws to harm Ambassador Zain without cause.” Distrusting him didn’t mean he wanted him dead without cause.

Zain’s intentions were to offer aid. He spouted typical white mantle lines, but his primary job was to offer aid, not convert everybody. The Sextants, as I see, were never explained, and bribing guards to ensure he has protection in Ascalon, which is led by an anti-krytan king? Not shocking. Also, that quest comes after the Fort Ranik mission. Which is after Adelbern almost had Zain arrested for treason.

Abject slavery and beheading innocent Krytans on the Bloodstone was decent? I suppose it is if you value order over liberty. :-/

Did I say “THE WHITE MANTLE WERE GOOD”? No. I simply said they were GOOD AT COVERING THEIR TRACKS. Note white mantle page from GW1 wiki. "To the Krytans the White Mantle are the root of law and order, the protectors or saviors, if you will, of their lands. "

ANet needed to have humanity down to one kingdom, villifying Adelbern and transferring Ascalon to the Charr was the easiest way to do that…it was already burning. It was a design decision based on racial parity(every “faction” in GW2 has just one culture pretty much)and on design time limitations(the cost of keeping Ascalon human and designing the Charr homelands somewhere northeast was too exhaustive;

Ascalon was burning, it wasn’t going to last long while Adelbern refused all help and the Charr were not soundly defeated and driven back for good.

Right. The Mursaat and Mantle were benevolent protectors. Said no one ever.

“To the Krytans the White Mantle are the root of law and order, the protectors or saviors, if you will, of their lands. "

Gw1 manual. Again, the way it came across to me was for the most part, Krytans accepted the Mantle and weren’t bothered. It was only two years they held control before the player arrived, and they were pretty good at covering their kitten during those years.

That change and “help” was at the price of Ascalons independence. Again, death is better than slavery. Adelbern did accept his situation, he was willing to die to keep his country free. In fact, the Shining Blade refused to accept change and the Mantle “situation”, and it was the right thing to do. The only help they accepted was freely given, not tied to chains. By the way, change in and of itself isn’t inherently good. It can be good and bad…depending on the situation.

They never actually state Ascalon had to worship the mursaat and convert to receive aid. Zain was there to offer it. In fact, nothing about Zain’s message strikes me as a “Convert and get help, refuse and die.” Given how he freely gave supplies to the Orphanage and was wanting to offer even additional help. He didn’t make the lady running it convert.

Yeah…peace is better than never seeing your home again. If a gang came into your neighborhood and started killing and burning everyone, with the intent to exterminate you and everyone you know, and take over your community, would you just walk calmly out the door and away with no thought of defiance? I hope not.

If the area is dangerous and unlivable, and my family would be more likely to die horribly then to live long lives, I’d relocate. If I was an Ascalonian, I’d choose to relocate to someplace I KNOW can support my family, then to live in a wasteland and barely surviving. I’d follow Rurik across the mountains.

If I was in Ebonhawke, I’d embrace peace over trying to continue a long, bitter war. I’d rather see my family and friends live in peace without having to worry about siege rounds smashing houses. The Separatists don’t want to see Ascalon retaken. They just want to see more endless war, which would mean more and more and MORE dead humans.

Because every race’s brains have to function in the exact same manner. /sarcasm.

There are minis which have Seraph in light and medium armor IIRC. My take was something that was similar to the typical officer tier of soldiers, but making it a little unique (a specific company with a slightly different uniform then baseline Seraph). It seems you can find baseline infantry with golden wing weapons (CM weapons), officers with the Seraph weapons… or even a mix back and forth. I personally went with Kryta’s embrace for shield and Faithful for axe.

As a fun outlier to show not ever Seraph wears the same gear… Caprice Vonne http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Caprice_Vonne.jpg and and Sgt Leavitt http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Sergeant_Leavitt.jpg

In the end, regarding my question, I decided on the rank of “Commander” since it’s a specific unit, but not an entire region. Unless they release information expanding on the Seraph.

Attached is an image of my warrior, who I describe story-wise as a Seraph.

Cutscenes are harder to make unique compared to Character interactions though. Being voiced and all.

I mean, we are talking about (In that instance the original poster mentioned), them having to record that cutscene 7 different times, with the difference being something like “My I present Professor Gorr, and you already know Vivian” (which Trahearne actually wouldn’t know about!) Seems like a lot of work for a very minor tweak.

Hell, re-reading the line, I don’t even see how it comes across so harshly that it acts as if you never met Gorr or Vivian.

Trahearne: Commander, may I present Professor Gorr, who pioneered the theory of Elder Dragons consuming magic; and Scholar Vivian, a top expert on the Risen.

^ is the line. I just don’t see where the original poster is coming from.

About Charr, could also reference the one couple in a set of shorts they released. I think it was ash legion male, iron (or blood, I forget) female. Very hostile toward each other, but after the squad got wiped out and he died on the field, she arrived at an Ash legion Farhar with her child (fathered by the ash legion member).

Interesting read, having skimmed over it. But the appearance part made me shake my head a TINY bit.

Simply because the bulk of Seraph don’t have the T3 cultural armor look. Hell, somebody said my warrior didn’t look like a Seraph (wearing T3 cultural human shoulders and gloves, CM chest, legs, helm, and boots), but it was colored more golden (Like the baseline infantry) instead of silver. :P

Did your character meet Vivian before? If you aren’t charr, probably not. They get extra dialogue with her in that mission as well it seems.

Honestly, that line sounds less like an introduction as if you never met them (though for non asura, non-OoW characters, you have never met him before), and more of a “Hello everybody, these are the experts we are working with today.”

So again, what’s the issue? He’s not saying you have never met the man, just that you are working with him. It’s a line that covers non-charr and asura players (who haven’t met them, discounting if you did that mission as OoW in claw island arc), but at the same time, doesn’t strike me as if Asura players have never met him.

I’ve seen lines like that many times. “May I introduce so and so, our guest speaker.” Even if everybody knows the man (personally or who he is).

Again, if your character is NOT Asura, and is NOT Order of Whispers, you will NEVER see Gorr before that point. If your character is not Charr, you will NEVER see Vivian before that point either.

edit: to clear up, you are wanting five unique cutscenes for that mission.
A: Asura
B: OoW
C: Charr
D: Charr+ OoW
E: everybody else

Ah yes, because GW2 has facebook and thus Trahearne would know every single person you’ve met with beforehand.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Charr don’t have helicopters – the Pact does. And the Pact’s been decimated. Also, good luck getting those helicopters through thick vegetation without the blades becoming tangled, damaged, or destroyed.

I wouldn’t really say so. I mean, the guild hall decoration is labeled Charr Helicopter after all :P.

Also they imply the Seraph have Airships of their own. Probably the Charr air force is dedicated toward anti-flame legion actions ATM.

Honestly, gameplay wise, they wouldn’t do flying for a very obvious reason. Then people would go “Why can’t I fly in Kryta???” And, IIRC, in WoW flying mounts removed much of the risk of exploration, or exploration in general. Why hike and explore that ruins on the way to your quest zone when you can just fly over without any threat?

Durzlla.6295:

One thing to keep in mind though is all interracial couples are 100% infertile, so there will be no human cat hybrid babies running around. Probably for good reason…

^ is the biggest thing. Official canon is no halfbreeds in GW2.

I can accept it (In RP) if somebody said their ancestor (EOTN era) interbred with a Norn and thus have norn-human ancestry. That’s because in a lore perspective, 250 years have passed. That could be a story that is fact, or simply a tale that got told at some point and stuck with the family.

But, I’m not going to really accept a person who is a norn-human hybrid of the current generation. Maybe if somebody gave a really, really good explanation of it. :P

Like all things, Charr need farmers and blacksmiths and other things.

Heck, merchants or smiths may be in warbands (or solo)… we don’t really know. But it’d make sense for a warband to maintain a blacksmith shop (somebody forges, somebody maintains the gear, another mans the front and another gets the supplies). Also, we know warbands can vary in size, You might basically have a 2-man warband for something like doing barkeep work in the Citadel, and a 10-man warband who operates a ranch.

In example of PC, for all we know some of those people who do normally ‘solo’ jobs are still part of a warband, but operating separately for a time. Perhaps it’s a form of vacation for Charr?

Nox Lucis.8341:

Among humans especially, necromancers are often priests of Grenth, the benevolent god of death and patron of strict ethics who also is the son of Dwayna, goddess of life. These dark priests are typically considered a force for good among humans.
As it turns out, not everyone hates Hades.

Ha, I’ve seen somebody rping as a servant of Grenth (a warrior or guardian), collecting alms to help the poor. I found it interesting, if a bit unexpected (because I’d see Dwayna’s people doing a lot of that personally). edit: Coming from somebody who played a necromancer in GW1 and 2(human for both) and loves Grenth :P.

Also, about Norn. Here is another aspect you can consider, in terms of personal RP/story/headcanon etc. Patron spirit NOT being one of the main four. Like those that revere the hare/rabbit spirit outside of Hoelbrek. I’ve seen a number of Owl shamans (even though Owl is explicitly dead) wandering LA. An ascended item implies there was a Gorilla spirit, or perhaps the crafter thought there might have been one long ago. I recall an item that links to the Otter spirit vaguely.

Bouncing with that idea, it wouldn’t perhaps be a stretch to say perhaps this Norn necromancer reveres a Vulture spirit, using the dead and discarded?

draxynnic.3719:

The peace offering was sent by ship (why, when at that point the sea route from Ascalon to Kryta involved going past Orr, was not explained) and the ship was raided by Lion’s Arch pirates. Not knowing its purpose, Cobiah Marriner sold the olive branch (a collection of religious artifacts from the ruins of Ascalon) to a private collector, and it wasn’t until it was too late that Cobiah learned of the cargo’s true intent. It’s presented in Sea of Sorrows as a ‘doh’ moment for Cobiah after the fact as Cobiah realises that he may have been ultimately responsible for the bloodshed after Edain took the throne.

I’ve long known that pirates took the ship. Never meant to imply that humanity rejected it, merely that it did not end as either side wanted it. I didn’t know what the pirates (I didn’t know if it was random pirates or LA pirates) did with the artifacts though.

isolcity.3502:

Wow, this really took off while I wasn’t paying attention. XD So interesting to read! If anyone cares to know some context, my human girlie was an orphan whose first real friend and parental figure was a Charr. The two of them were rather reclusive, which resulted in girlie having zero meaningful contact with humans from childhood until later teen years. Said Charr was an obsessive historian of the Ascalon bickerings, and girlie inherited that interest, along with a partiality towards the Charr. When it comes to social interactions, she feels more like a Charr than a human.

Is the charr in the relationship said charr who acted as a parent figure, or a different one? Either way, I’d imagine a Charr in the Priory (Or any order really, but Priory mainly) would be more open toward humanity. An interesting backstory, and IMO, plausible. We have charr and human children from LA who loved playing with each other (Ghosts and charr I think was one game), but knew at least one set of parents wouldn’t approve. Said children are now adopted siblings being raised by an Asura couple lol.

So yeah, I can see a charr raising a human. We have humans raising Charr after all.

Nox Lucis.8341:

I speculate that such a human might struggle with finding a Charr partner that can fully and effectively reciprocate the affection, as well as being accepted by mainstream Krytan society.

I’d say the charr side of it would be the harder bit. Sounds like such a character would prefer someplace like the orders or LA over mainline Krytan towns (or maybe Charr towns either…) Depends how they want to be seen by the general public. Do they care about what people think, or go “I love Charr, screw the haters.”?

Frosch.7809:

The Iron Legion was trying to forge peace with Ebonhawke, and humanity did not accept it, how injust of them.

“What did you expect, we are at war!” – that’s a Charr’s comment to Cobiah Marriner learning that the Charr were scouting an invasion route to LA over the sea. It shows that the “bulk of the Charr” was not done with the war. Neither was Kryta, and surely not Ebonhawke, which was the last place to accept any attempts at “peace” with the Charr, and you know that.

Seeing it as a spoiled attempt at peace by humanity is a purely subjective Charr point of view. It does not change that the Charr have been the aggressor against humanity for 1250 years. You are trying to put the blame for the war away from the Charr. That does not work.

The only honest and serious attempt at peace came from humanity, and the treatý hasn’t been signed after years of negotiations. Surely humanity is to be blamed for that too, right?

I’m not putting the blame of the war away from Charr. I’m simply stating that the truth is, Charr has put forth peace efforts. Then the human prince made the field run with blood of Charr and human soldiers. The reference I’ve read from wiki and otherwise makes it sound as if the human did it purposefully like he was playing with toys, not a city.

Who knows, maybe the charr always were planning on that if the peace efforts failed. Maybe they did it in response to Kryta’s obvious hostile efforts (by means of the prince). I’ve not personally read Sea of Sorrow’s, though I would if I got the chance.

I’ve always viewed the siege of Ebonhawke as a thing the Charr continued doing… to do it. That outside of the siege lines, they weren’t really dedicated toward it. They had other, bigger issues (flame Legion, ghosts, etc), and when the cease fire was signed, were happy because it meant that heavy artillery and guns could be used elsewhere.

The actual peace treaty hasn’t been signed, but that’s because there is a lot to talk about. It’s planned to include the entire fields of ruin area being given to Ebonhawke. Likely it’d involve how Charr military units in the area would be allowed to act/what they’d do. Like the Charr camps around the brand, or fighting the Ogres, etc.

That it’s not being signed instantly simply means they are actually going back and forth over the details. PERHAPS included in it is stuff for repaying/help Ascalonian descendants out, which would be something that would be heavily talked about.

Maybe they’ve had to take breaks in the sessions to deal with other threats and things (Or to clear heads), and then resumed. It’s been three years since the party at Caudecus’s Manor, which was about the Charr-human détente (Their wording a few times, other times like the mail it’s mentioned to be a party/meeting about the PEACE negotiations). Some say truce, others say treaty.

It could be that the party/meeting was to celebrate and help finalize parts of the final peace treaty, or simply the official cease fire and the treaty talks continued. It’s hard to tell. I always saw it as the peace treaty, others say it’s simply the cease fire. With zones being mostly locked in time, we don’t know for sure.

Mesmers, in general, are one of the most overpowered in terms of lore/RP. Their problem is less of people unknowingly or knowingly godmodding, but that the class is just that crazy. Mass illusions, confusion, etc, that’s their home turf.

I think it’d be neat, but in a sense, a little redundant maybe? I mean, most classes end up having a huge range of ‘archtypes’ that you can use already. I feel the Revenant one was done mostly to clear up WHAT they are. Like for example, me and friends kept going back and forth with “I wonder how exactly they work. Is it a dead person who has come back from the mists?”

Well, I was thinking. here is how I would try to naturally mesh GW1 lore with GW2 events in HoT.

Have a mission/event heart/that stuff around the Maguuma bloodstone, only it turns out in the years between GW1 and gW2, the surviving white mantle have turned their camps at it into a fortress (and because it’s deep in the jungle, nobody bothers to go out that far and they don’t really go into Kryta in obvious force).

Now, as part of it, you have priory/people talking about the White mantle, and you can have them mention how the hero found them sacrificing people on the bloodstone, and then later helped wipe out their leadership. Like the one camp in Orr where an Asura priory member has lots of scrolls about Orr/the gods, same thing. A priory member has several scrolls and books about the bloodstone, white mantle, and that period.

I feel like it’d be a more natural way to include and reference those events then the scepter of Orr personally

While true those events are major, and important… Some of it isn’t touched on in history lessons, other things are. Most importantly, we play as adults who have already passed school age (for humans). That angle is completely removed, unless for some reason we pass by a school lesson where they are talking about it… and the way it sounds, most commoners don’t even fully know about the White Mantle, much less the civil war…

About Scepter of Orr, sure, but I don’t see most of GW1 prophecies events as being relevant to the scepter. Besides maybe that it was housed in Kryta for a time, until the lich got a hold of it. After he died it disappeared.

I’m in full agreeance it’d be nice to see, but using RL comparisions, you simply don’t see people talking about those events. We have people who were declared by leaders like Lincoln that they would “Never be forgotten”, at yet, nobody even knows about them now.

Hell, my dad was asking me about people, places, and events that were MAJOR… most of them I went “Erm, no idea.” Like one person who moved a bunch of cannons across mountains in the winter during the revolution, to set them up around a town. The event which was major in convincing the British to stop. Nobody ever talks about him.

This is amplified as an issue when the hero from GW1 simply helped out and moved on, and never actually settled anywhere (that we know of).

Now, something they could do in HoT would be to MAYBE create unique weapons/armors (perhaps profession linked) which are themed directly toward GW1 styles, and named in ways that imply this gear was once used by those heroes of Tyria. Like I said to a friend a bit ago, I kinda wish the legendaries (at least some), or the new HoT legendaries were more linked toward GW1 people and events. Like the Flameseeker prophecies shield.

We have examples of Charr cubs being raised alongside human children just fine.

We have an example of a charr cub being raised alongside a human, norn, and asura child, but a human mother(or couple, I forget).

You could EASILY go with an angle of maybe that Charr didn’t get your standard Farhar upbringing. I can see a human-charr relationship happening, just not that common or even open about it.

Most pets would be sized right to be used as mounts for Asura… if you wanted to go that angle.

At one point, long ago, I was thinking about an Asura ranger who’s in-character thing was riding a drake as a battle-mount.

There is also the not-typical aspect. Maybe they genuinely like animals better then golems or people? I just read on wiki about an Asura who hides out in a cave full of rabbits and some other creatures because that’s what she loves to do, is feed and care for the rabbits.

Ah, sounds like they are going to make old ones work with it as well tomorrow. Thanks for suggesting Dulfy.

So, I just learned of this. However I have friends who have had that Authenticator set up since week one, how do they get the mini-pet?

^

It’s not impossible. Unusual? Yes. But it’s not something I’d grab the torch and pitchfork for lore breaking. As long as they aren’t expecting everybody to be happy with their relationship, and don’t RP their characters having half-breed kids, go for it. :P

Frosch.7809:

Around the time of Zhaitan’s rise the Charr planned the invasion of Lion’s Arch over the sea, they sent a scoutship which did not return exactly because of Zhaitan’s rise. At that point an invasion over the sea was most likely going to fail due to Zhaitan’s navy, and LA was destroyed. The only other way for the Charr to invade Kryta would have been through Norn territory and the Norn would most likely not have let an invasion force pass.

So, till that time the war was not limited to Ebonhawke as far as the Charr were concerned, it was still aimed at all of humanity.

Furthermore, the one attempt (within over a thousand years) at a peaceful contact is almost cynical as the Charr must have known that a ship would most likely not make it, given that their scout did not return. Had they been serious about it they would have tried again, in some other way. It shows that they weren’t.

So the statement that the Charr were trying to forge peace is not correct. They lost interest in fighting Ebonhawke due to their inability to take it, and Kryta had gotten out of reach.

And the comment directly from a Charr which states the Iron Legion was forging peace with Ebonhawke until a Krytan prince arrived and made the fields run with blood? Which likely took place before that since it’s stated that his actions there likely got his fathers approval?

I assume that doesn’t count at all right?

Either way, for the most part, the bulk of humans and charr were done with the ‘war’.

I played all of GW1, I don’t feel like I’m disregarded or that the first game’s lore is ignored. It’s a world 250 years later, THINGS CHANGE.

Look at RL, 250 years ago. Can you name great heroes of that period off the top of your head casually? No? Can you even recall major battles off the top of your head?

The great heroes of GW1 are of a period that has gone. Unlike some settings, GW2 actually has a fairly realistic approach to events 250 years ago. Well educated citizens and scholars know about it. Your common civilian doesn’t know about it, or as much.

Well, in general terms, it’s like Americans talking about people or events from the French and Indian war. Scholar and people who are really into that era and reenactments can tell you a lot, but general public not as much. Hell, people who did amazing things in the Revolution, civil war, and WW2 even are forgotton to the general public. Some of them were heralded with things like what the guy from Beetletun says “You will be remembered for all time because of your actions today!” And now they are barely a footnote in history class.

Ogden, in comparison, knew the hero for a short time really. And I think we haven’t had much that he could tell us stories of and be relevant to the plot. Most of the time when we run into him, something else is kinda pressing. In the season 2, perhaps some more reference, but it’d be Ogden talking about what he had heard of the hero, not personal experience. The way it came across was more of Ogden hanging out at the Priory almost all of the time, so if you weren’t a member, you might not even know he exists.

I am agreeing that it’d be nice to see references, but I’d rather it be fitting in context then shoved in. IRL we have so much very, VERY important events and people who simply are utterly forgotten by the public.

And 250 years later, would people still be casually, every day talking about those events? I understand your point and agree more references would be nice, but we are talking about a world 250 years later.

It’s established that the events around the white mantle/civil war are unknown or rumors to the common folk. But about that amulet…

Would you really think to overhear somebody going “Yes, this amulet was almost lost many years ago, but a hero returned it!” in casual conversation? I think we need to factor in time. It’s a bit unreasonable to assume people would be casually, in public, talking about events hundreds of years ago. Especially if you refer to minor events such as “Found this lost amulet for a family.”

Sure, maybe as a bit of dialogue if you interact directly with an npc and something like “That’s a unique necklace.” and then they go “Oh, it’s a family heriloom, but many years ago was recovered thanks to an adventurer.”

The events of GW1 were important to shaping the world, but should they be typical conversation among common folk? And remember, the only people really who would KNOW of this would be humans. so that limits you to Kryta and Ebonhawke only basically.

narwhalsbend.7059:

Kalavier.1097:

edit: About the Historian/scribe. Back then those books and scrolls would have to be hand-copied. So it’s not like it could spread news fast by writing. And again, translation errors/damage to scrolls/mistakes while copying it.

A copy of the Ascalon census managed to survive the Searing and two years of abandonment in the rubble perfectly intact. I don’t know how a well maintained scroll could get damaged to easily when copying.

I said Translation errors. It’s possible that the written language is different now then it was back then, so the person (may have)translated “After the searing” into “before the searing”. IIRC, the priory has a bunch of scrolls, some damaged, some not, which are in a pile of “Waiting to be translated”.

The two scholars don’t really mention the state of the scrolls. Just that they had found them.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

That the PC was part of a group of adventurers does not make it more likely that he was forgotten, in fact it makes it more likely that they are remembered. The probability of one person being forgotten is higher than the probability of 8 or mor being forgotten, especially if some of those people wrote books that are still available to the general public to this day. Others went to become headmasters/trainers at academies (Mhenlo, Dunkoro). By association alone it’s more likely that the PC is remembered as being a companion of one of those and vice versa.

I didn’t say forgotten entirely. Just that details could be lost. Aka, if a lone hero kills the big bad by himself, and everybody learns, they are remembered detail wise. It’s easy to remember the details of a single hero, vs the details of everybody in a group of 8 or more.

You see, my personal viewpoint is that all henchmen present in an outpost were involved in the missions in some way, and in Nightfall, heroes all were involved too. In EOTN however, you’d have the EOTN heroes and the EOTN henchmen only, as the Nightfall heroes went back to their lives post-campaign.

And I still don’t see the WoC comment as any kind of proof that the PC wanted to be forgotten.

IMO, the hero didn’t see themselves as a hero at that time(WoC). They might know for sure the causes they fought for mostly were good in the past, but Purity was the first one they got heavily involved in that showed the true colors early(ish) on.

On to the last point: Yes preservation methods weren’t that great in ancient times, and unfortunately the largest part of sources are just gone, destroyed by the tides of time. However this in our world, Tyria has two things going for it: 1.) The Durmand Priory, an organization founded before the rise of Orr that managed to safe quite a lot of documents from Lion’s Arch and 2.) Magic that helps preserve documents and in some cases even grants visions of the past.

Translation errors are a thing, even IRL.

And now we must not forget that the PC not only stopped global threats, no he spent a lot of time helping the average people, killing pests on the field, finding lost heirlooms and building snowmen for the children on winter’s day. So please don’t pretend the PC was some kind of anti-social loner who no one would have missed or remembered once he disappeard, because it simply could not be further from the truth.

The hero had friends, for sure. But would Beetletun notice if he died somewhere in the far shiverpeaks? Not really. He saved their town, they are thankful for that (and the ones who lived then would probably recognize him), but as time goes on, the stories would slow possibly. He saved them from destruction by undead that one time, then the White mantle happened. Also, as others have said, Kryta seems to have done an effort to hiding the White Mantle and that part of history from general, open knowledge.

Again, Devona is a fine example. She knew the hero yes… but in GW2, where are monuments or stories told of Ascalon’s Chosen? Devonas team went from Ascalon, through ALL the events of the three campaigns and EOTN. You can find a book or two wrote by Mhenlo, but hardly any other references by NPCS to those people. My point is, the hero is remembered, but the DETAILS have been lost. We don’t know their name for example, but we know what they have done.

Rednik.3809:

Donari.5237:

Well keep in mind that the Charr-Human treaty’s only been in effect for four years now. Plenty of people on both sides will be veterans of the conflict and have deep seated feelings about the other race. Peace or no peace, they could well see just being friends, let alone lovers, as a betrayal of the memory of those who died.

In fact, Charr-Human war stopped long time ago, except Ebonhawke, and even in DR people was quite unhappy about being involved in that, see Ghosts of Ascalon book. Only descendants of ascalonians holds a grudge.

Also that around Zhaitan’s rising/before that, Iron Legion was trying to forge peace with Ebonhawke.

The war only existed around Ebonhawke, and even some of those that still hold the hate in the Treaty tent area (It’s not finalized, just the cease-fire is) state things like “I can’t forget what they did. But this peace is for the next and following generations. They won’t have this hate.”

BrettM.9062:

Kalavier.1097:

In the end, the player character did not settle and become head of a town or leader of a nation/major faction.

I think this nails it. The PC, regardless of campaign or origin, is essentially rootless, with no long-term social ties to cement his legacy. The PC started out as a nobody without the community history or ties of the NPCs who trained him or otherwise interacted with him. And the PC always moved on to something else too quickly to really establish himself in any community. He’s easily forgotten in the press of current events once he moves on.

The other major nail is that the Player character DID NOT DO all of that alone. As I keep saying, Devona and crew were always there, the henchmen (and later heroes) were there as well. So we aren’t talking about a single hero who slaughtered their way through the Mursaat army and then killed the lich, but a group of heroes.

And, even then. Who in the guild of Ascalon’s Chosen (Devona and crew) is remembered publically and openly today? Nobody. You have books by Mhenlo, but that’s it. Meanwhile Gwen who only killed the Great Destroyer and founded Ebonhawke is still remembered.

And we were always on the move. We didn’t stick around even in the campaigns. We arrived and did what we had to do, then left quickly. Factor in the WoC comment, likely they wanted to be forgotton.

It sounds like less of they think they were fighting for bad cases in the past, but more of that they were blindly following them, where as the Ministry of Purity is the first time they’ve actually looked hard at what was going on.

edit: About the Historian/scribe. Back then those books and scrolls would have to be hand-copied. So it’s not like it could spread news fast by writing. And again, translation errors/damage to scrolls/mistakes while copying it.

Human isn’t dying out. They are diminished from where they used to be, but they are not dying off.

If they play it as a socially shocking thing, and don’t pretend it’s normal, I don’t see the major issue.

Hell, other day I think I saw an asura-Charr couple talking about (IIRC) getting married… nobody else rping around them seemed to char :P