Guild Wars 2

Beldin.5498:

Light armor -> embroidered pants
heavy -> atherblade pants

Thats it more or less .. its the revers of the trenchcoar problem on medium armor
only that here we have the “butcapes” hanging on our pants, while medium has
pants without end, but trenchcoats

The thing with the light armor vs medium armor is some light armors (I’ve noticed it more perhaps with males thenn females) separate the coats between chest and legs, where the medium armor has the coat entirely on the chest.

IndigoSundown.5419:

More light pants!
More heavy leggings!
No more medium kitten trench coats until we get some medium shirts or waist-length coats !

Viva la revolución

Um, are you calling every coat ingame a trench coat? I recall there are several which do not even approach that length of coat, and don’t even reach the knee :P.

Lightsbane.9012:

lets deal with the problem of nearly every piece of light armor being a dress or robe, and every piece of medium armor either being a mall flasher trenchcoat, or something that just looks silly.

Because light armors are caster classes, who typically go for robes… Also some are coats, just instead of the chestpiece being the entire coat, it’s split between legs and chest.

And while SOME medium armors are trenchcoats, a huge chunk are simply COATS. Also don’t see how they are like a ‘mall flasher trenchcoat’… at all.

Yes, I agree there could be some more diversity. Hell, I’d love if the male version of the Phalanx armor was available for female chars.

“Destiny’s Edge 2.0” is a group of adventurers in their ‘newb’ years.

Remember, originally Rytlock and Logan had trouble with some devourers until Caithe showed them how :P. The ‘b team’ simply isn’t as experianced as adventurers as we the player characters are, or Destiny’s Edge.

They are skilled and experianced, but not as much.

My thing is, who knows if after release they simply won’t split the two again and have base game and HoT be buyable?

Plans change. Also, about content… has ANY MMO showed off $50 worth of content and everything to do before release? I can’t remember. I’m sure the WoW expansion before last didn’t showcase every single zone and thing to do in it.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

“Undead” really isn’t a race though. Joko has undead humans, centaurs, and what seems to be even charr.

So I never really see the interest in an ‘undead’ race. Because it’d be more of ‘undead human’ or the like.

For the sake of simplicity I see undead humans as the best solution, especially since Joko has easy access to them as Elona is predominantly human (other races such as centaurs, Harpies and Heket could be shown as NPC-undead). And I think being undead is enough of a difference to being an alive human, that it could very well work as a playable race (after all, as far as I’m aware there is no ritual or magic that can turn an undead back into a living being).
Customization could give you the option between a more zombie, mummy or skeleton like appearance for example.

Yeah… thing is, I don’t see playable undead working in GW2. At all.

I think rangers simply are one of the most diverse class types that can be found.

Though I personally think if the coat is one of the ones that goes down past belt a little bit, it’s not really a long-coat and wouldn’t affect stuff. Stuff like the studded armor is just a padded tunic after all.

About the warrior thing… I legit have a friend who can build supremely tanky characters at the moment.

Honestly I keep mapchat off most of the time to avoid spam/missing PM or party chat with friends to be honest.

But yeah, I think it’s just stress and being unsure about what exactly the upcoming big patch will bring, and the HoT pre-purchase stuff seems to be a touchy subject.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Aren’t Naga simply Krait?

Entirely different races.

Krait have the mild form shifting from EOTN (I believe somewhere Anet officially said Krait in GW2 can still do it), and Naga do not. As one aspect.

But they also said Forgotten, Naga, and Krait are not the same race or even related.

rhapsody.3615:

Sorry, I wasn’t making an argument for either side. Simply stating a fact since the person I quoted has NEVER seen a business give refunds for items that go on sale after purchase. If it was sarcasm, my apologies.

Ah, well, admittedly I don’t go to many sales so I didn’t know that Interesting and good to know (though honestly I personally wouldn’t care most of the time either way…)

And most of the time when I see kittening about that stuff, it’s directly related to game cash shops…

rhapsody.3615:

Kalavier.1097:

GuzziHero.2467:

Tere.4759:

Why would Anet do #2? I got the base game for a friend for 20.00. Why should people who got the game for 20.00 recently, get HOT for free? That would kitten me off and I bought the ultimate xpac. So I bought the original game at 60.00, I bought friends the original game at between 20.00 and 60.00 and bought the ultimate xpac yet I don’t think I should be getting anything for free.

Because they were mislead into buying the core game?

At the VERY least, anyone who purchased after HoT announcement should be given HoT at a reduced cost.

Mislead? How. Frankly that’d kitten off even more players because then you’d have the guys going “WHAT THE kitten? I bought GW2 the day before/week before they announced that!”

And the people who have been in the game since beta/launch (Like me and many others, including most GW1 vets) would be kittened off even more.

This is just like people kittening about paying full price for something the week before a sale goes live and moan endlessly about “How they would’ve waited until the sale if they had known about it, GIMME REFUND FOR THE AMOUNT THE DIFFERENCE WOULD BE!”

I don’t know of a single business that’d go “Oh, I’m so sorry, here, let me refund the full price item and give you the discount item!” if you bought it before the sale.

Now if you got it DURING the sale and were charged full price, that’s another issue.

Most businesses give you a refund of the difference on items you bought that go on sale within one week to 30 days depending on the company (in the US anyway).

And pre-order bonuses change sometimes.

Even in that case, it’s not true here. They got the game, now expansion is announced. It’s not like GW2 core went on sale suddenly.

Even then, I’m sure in most cases you wouldn’t get a bundle package at a discounted prize simply because you already have a piece of it.

GuzziHero.2467:

Tere.4759:

Why would Anet do #2? I got the base game for a friend for 20.00. Why should people who got the game for 20.00 recently, get HOT for free? That would kitten me off and I bought the ultimate xpac. So I bought the original game at 60.00, I bought friends the original game at between 20.00 and 60.00 and bought the ultimate xpac yet I don’t think I should be getting anything for free.

Because they were mislead into buying the core game?

At the VERY least, anyone who purchased after HoT announcement should be given HoT at a reduced cost.

Mislead? How. Frankly that’d kitten off even more players because then you’d have the guys going “WHAT THE kitten? I bought GW2 the day before/week before they announced that!”

And the people who have been in the game since beta/launch (Like me and many others, including most GW1 vets) would be kittened off even more.

This is just like people kittening about paying full price for something the week before a sale goes live and moan endlessly about “How they would’ve waited until the sale if they had known about it, GIMME REFUND FOR THE AMOUNT THE DIFFERENCE WOULD BE!”

I don’t know of a single business that’d go “Oh, I’m so sorry, here, let me refund the full price item and give you the discount item!” if you bought it before the sale.

Now if you got it DURING the sale and were charged full price, that’s another issue.

Tigaseye.2047:

I envisage rangers spending a lot of their time running through forests.

Long coats would catch on everything – undergrowth, low branches, fallen trees – it would be a total nightmare.

Trenchcoats are for open ground and well, trenches…

I feel that a sleek top and leggings, with as little in the way of extraneous attachments and loose material, as possible and flat boots, would be far more practical; or even a catsuit type thing.

I think ‘rangers’ by general definition, encompass so many different archtypes and themes it’s hard to say one suits all.

I’d envision a ranger of the wild to use something simple. More akin to a general leather tunic, pants, and coat with pockets for storage and easy to maintain. Like Aragorn from LOTR movies. Because tight/sleek pants and a top wouldn’t have much storage and all. Using modern terms, I’d picture them wearing cargo pants and a simple shirt with a good coat over tight jeans and a tight shirt.

Now somebody who lives in a city but hunts, I could see using more of a tight leather armor, with a coat overtop. A scout themed ranger would have more of a leather armor or light (meaning chainmail/light weight) armor look to them.

“Getting caught on everything around” depends on the terrain. I mean, some forests are thick and cramped, others are more open with less brush. Is the ranger situated in a harsher or colder enviroment (Like the shiverpeaks)? They’d probably go for a longer coat simply for warmth reasons (assuming we are talking about a human.) While one who is in a warmer/more friendly enviroment may prefer just a tunic with a cloak or coat in their pack for a rainy day.

I’d wager a coat would catch less then loose straps. edit: Meaning, if the ranger lives out in the wild more then in civilization, they likely carry everything with them. A coat is an effective protection from rain and elements, and can double as a blanket. Even if they aren’t wearing it, it likely is bundled and attached to their pack (which they’d have to have anyway because pockets can only hold so much).

Kinda funny because I’d see the medium armor classes using more pockets and stuff then tight leather outfits without pockets.

Though I’d not call Vigil medium a trench coat at all… SOME themes fit long coats, some don’t. I’d see a ranger who spends most of their time in the wild to prefer a longer coat then a short one/tighter leather. You can use a long coat as a makeshift blanket if you have to. I mean, a coat is easier to manage then a cloak which a lot of fantasy realms/stories have people using.

My norn ranger doesn’t have a long coat ingame anymore (used to use tier 2 norn armor before wardrobe), but I could easily see her wearing one over her armor at times. In general, the medium armor is filled with coats. I’d call some simply normal coats, and not ‘long coats’.

GuzziHero.2467:

2/ That Anet will do right by those people who bought AFTER the expac announcement and upgrade them to HoT for free

Will never happen. Same reason why nobody gets upgraded to the last WoW expansion for free if they joined after that announcement. Besides, they have been doing sales for the core game a lot.

Frankly, I didn’t read most of this topic, but has anybody bothered to consider that the “Core game access” may ALSO be a pre-order bonus?

I saw nothing that really implies buying HoT will get you the core game post release. I won’t be pre-purchasing just yet, but I plan to.

Also, another thing to debunk the “Titan threat is over, Ascalon won” crowd.

Just because the top leadership dies doesn’t mean an enemy will stop. If they want to keep this argument of “All charr were involved/didn’t mind it”, that means once the Titans were dead, the charr would STILL continue to attack regardless of that fact.

It’s not like the charr were enslaved and thus would stop fighting because they didn’t want to in the first place. Or that they’d be demoralized by it. Given how we are told Ascalons armies and defenses are weakened and withered… I’d see no reason for the Charr to STOP attacking.

Even if they weren’t a single, unified army, we’d see pretty decently sized groups rampaging around anyway. The only way to ‘win’ the war against the charr would be to utterly decimate their numbers/armed forces, drive them out of Ascalon and either rebuild the great northern wall or build a new wall as a hard border.

Also, unlike some settings, in GW2 the tech doesn’t take the place of magic. They work together.

yhvh.8703:

My guess is, yes, while they’re scattered everywhere, some details about them are to be considered non-canon:

- WP inside of dungeons, etc are just game mechanics. They appear as you progress anyway.
- The fee being so cheap should be also considered game mechanics, else NPCs would use them to go to point X to Y instead of walking. My guess is that they may be feasible to use once in a while, but going repeatedly would drain one’s gold pretty fast. Also, that explains why there’s no tax on capital cities.

I’d say it’s probably more of an emergency thing. Also it’s unclear whether you could even bring cargo through a waypoint as well (but that’d likely skyrocket the price).

One idea I had about the fee was it’s a “straight from pocket” style expense. Coins can be rather heavy in large numbers, so it’s doubtful most people would simply carry so much coin on them to make waypoint travel cost a non-issue.

I’d assume that in certain cases the fee might be handwaved. IE, the Orr offensive. At one event end we see a LOT of people come through a waypoint to reinforce a base. Likely that doesn’t apply to normal people outside of the Pact/areas like that.

but yeah, like asura gates being free(They aren’t in lore, and can get pretty expensive depending on how much cargo you are moving. You can see humans at the DR-Ebonhawke gate complaining about it DR side, and before battle of LA you could see a charr complaining about it to a gate operator… who would grant him discount/free on bulk if she got a lifetime supply of rifles to protect her gate from people want free trips :P), I’d wager the waypoints cost a little bit more. At least enough that casual citizens don’t bother with it and instead take longer overland travels.

edit: A good comparison that popped into my head. Toll road/bridge vs normal roads.

Sure, that one there gets you to the location quicker… but would you want to spend the money on it on a daily basis? Or would you use it to get to Walmart and back (closer to waypoints I think there). Probably not.

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

Yeah… War is over and the humans won. Adelbern is remorseful and regretful.

Seriously dude?? That phrase is uttered immediately after the last core mission in Proph, before the Titan quests, and certainly before Factions.

So a single battle/pair of battles magically just made the entire Charr offensive stop and Ascalon won and wasn’t threatened by the Charr, their home being a wasteland now, their armies and defensives severely weakened…

Not really, end of that one Titan mission simply has us catching him as he’s tired. Nothing indicates that his entire personality has shifted from what he was shown to have before.

If all you get from that is “he’s tired” I don’t know what to tell you.

Again, the way his character acted in GW beyond, and the lore after that was FITTING OF HIM. It wasn’t a shocking rewrite that went against every single showing of him before, it was a natural progression. He simply became more and more stubborn.

…

Again, how is it shocking that Adelbern, NOTED TO HATE KRYTANS EXTREMELY, noted to be very stubborn to the point where many Ascalon citizens would rather Rurik be on the Throne BECAUSE THEY THINK RURIK CAN BRING ASCALON TO ANOTHER GOLDEN AGE, noted to refuse help and fiercely cling to what little he has left of his ruined kingdom and refuse to accept defeat…

Would dip more into the crazy pot, possibly murder a Krytan Ambassador asking for (and offering) help, banish and remove any who spoke out against his tactics, and become enraged when he sees what little followers he has left fleeing an overwhelming force.

Also, no. EOTN and GW beyond may help bridge and introduce some of the lore of GW2, but it is NOT guild wars 2. It is Guild wars 1. Was the entire GW1 staff removed and didn’t work on those items at all? I don’t recall ever hearing such.

Quote from the EotN main wiki page: “GW:EN, is the fourth purchasable installment in the original Guild Wars game. It is intended to tie the Guild Wars storyline with that of Guild Wars 2.”
The entire purpose of EotN was to intro the GW2 narrative dude. Had they not done so, we’d have had a 4th campaign, Utopia, to gab about here.
For staff answer, see my post above.

Yes, it is meant to tie GW1 to GW2.

That does not mean it is GW2. I cannot play EOTN or guild wars beyond by loading GW2. It was made by the staff of GW1, for GW1 game, using GW1 assets. See, my issue is because people dislike the fact that Ascalon apparently didn’t win despite having massively weakened armies, a ruined land, ruins instead of cities, and a depleted population. So they try to handwave anything involving EOTN as “Oh, that’s GW2, it can’t be used while talking GW1”. Instead of a quote talking about how it’s meant to “bring the two games together.” find a quote explicitly stating it’s not meant to be taken as part of GW1.

Obsidian.1328:

They never wrote another story for post-Proph Tyria until EotN, are you really trying to suggest that that quote is invalid because it didn’t address the particular political instability of Kryta that was months ago by the time of that quote??

You’re right, I guess whoever wrote that wasn’t being detailed enough.

Not invalid, but definitely a case of “History doesn’t lie, Historians on the other hand…”

We are talking about something wrote by a guy who is currently in Cantha, had left Ascalon, and chooses to live in Kryta (ingame). I don’t think he has current, updated information concerning the status of Ascalon as of that Moment, since Factions and Prophecies don’t take place that far apart. I don’t think he’s in Adelbern’s inner circle, and the Titan Quests don’t imply that Adelbern has suddenly changed EVERY SINGE ASPECT of his personality and suddenly embraces Kryta and is making treaties with them for aid. (Treaties that, as of Gw1 prophecies end, would be hard to do seeing as we just killed the White Mantle Leadership in the shiverpeaks and the ring of fire.)

Dante.1763:

And heres the writers who wrote Prophecies: From the Wiki http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_credits#Writers
Stacie Magelssen
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

And heres the credits for Eye of the North, again for the writers.

Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Caitlin Kittredge
Stacie Magelssen
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

Looks like every single Writer involved in EOTN worked on Prophecies, and there wasn’t any new faces in that setup.

Lurinna.4306:

Kalavier.1097:

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

That segment was created along with the rest of the Prophecies epilogue much later, around the time of EOTN.

And in Prophecies Ascalon wasn’t going to last long. I’m curious WHO in Kryta those supposed treaties would have been with (from that quote about Ascalon recovering).

White Mantle, who was leaderless because of our actions? Shining Blade, which while maybe growing in strength, still had their own teeth kicked in recently?

Obsidian.1328:

And his mindset at the end of Proph is one of regret and remorse, not insane warmongering.

EotN is an ANet-confirmed, introductory prequel to GW2. Anything during or after that, which the Foefire is, is definitely GW2. It’s common knowledge.

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

Yeah… War is over and the humans won. Adelbern is remorseful and regretful.

Not really, end of that one Titan mission simply has us catching him as he’s tired. Nothing indicates that his entire personality has shifted from what he was shown to have before.

Again, the way his character acted in GW beyond, and the lore after that was FITTING OF HIM. It wasn’t a shocking rewrite that went against every single showing of him before, it was a natural progression. He simply became more and more stubborn.

Also, no. EOTN and GW beyond may help bridge and introduce some of the lore of GW2, but it is NOT guild wars 2. It is Guild wars 1. Was the entire GW1 staff removed and didn’t work on those items at all? I don’t recall ever hearing such.

Daniel Handler.4816:

So OP if for any reason you don’t want your players to use a waypoint say that travel is unsafe. So, mobs in the area, conditions on a person, interference with the waypoint itself. Its basically like “is this plane geared to take off”, “no because a passenger is sick”

Or, another good comparison.

“We can’t land the heli here to drop off a squad because it’s likely they’ll get shot up the second they get out.” or “They’ll get shot up getting into the heli.”

I think the best explanation is that typical waypoint use is waypoint to waypoint, and it can’t typically be used from the middle of nowhere. However, portal stones/portal spells do exist, but I’d say those would be rarer for standard use.

Obsidian.1328:

We didn’t get to see all of Ascalon Pre-Searing, and even less of it post-Searing. Just like you don’t get to see all of Kryta, or Cantha, or Elona. Hell you don’t even get to see much of the Charr lands, yet you don’t have a problem assuming it’s all there. The sum of the explorable parts in the game is less than the whole.

You can see that ALL of Ascalon post-searing shares the same world view texture. There isn’t green there, it’s all this burnt landscape. I saw not a single place on the world map that looked like a fertile farmland.
“Blasted and battered, the current landscape of Ascalon holds only the ghost of its former glory. Skeletons of grand cathedrals and remnants of whole cities lie broken on the shifted, displaced ground. The protective Great Northern Wall is perhaps the most intact structure in the entire kingdom, but the destruction that surrounds it lies in testament to its ultimate failure.

Before the Charr invasion and the Searing, Ascalon was a fertile land, full of wheat fields and blossoming flowers. Now though, little grows here in this wasteland. The once loamy earth is now dry and arid. The riverbeds have dried up, and the mudflats have turned into a patchwork of cracked plates and jagged scars in the ground. " Hey, check it out. GW prophecies called Ascalon a wasteland.

She meant everyone, not just Krytans. Again, GW2 writing there.

And Adelbern, in PROPHECIES, held the same personality. He wasn’t changed. I’m sick of people acting as in Anet DRASTICALLY kittening changed Adelbern.

The Dragon’s Gullet is supposed to be near Mount Hrangmer in GW1…which is where those Titans came from. Right next to the Flame Legion Corridor. Any of this falling into place now?

Really? You are saying the flame legion CAPITAL, Where they discovered Titans 200 years before the searing… Is literally not that far from the wall? Where do they say that about Dragon’s Gullet? Hrangmer is not on the map of GW1. It’s not even stated to be the Flame Citadel in GW2 explicitly either. (Dragon’s gullet is the southern border of Fireheart Rise, using a map comparison)

The guy that wrote that left Ascalon after the Proph campaign to travel to Cantha to resume trade routes, diplomacy, etc. It’s meant as bridging narrative for Proph PC’s to intro into the Factions campaign. The whole point of Adelbern’s speech at the end of The Last Day Dawns is to give him a sense of regret and remorse at being so stubborn and pig-headed to his son. The writer is trying to show you he realizes the error of his ways.

And yet, I never saw anything that said Ascalon had won the war and was in the clear… simply that they had survived that particular threat. Or that Adelbern had changed really.

…or anywhere else off the explorable map. You’re falling victim to game limitations again.

Erm, what? Are you saying there were other nations well off and capable and willing to trade with Ascalon that were never stated in GW1 or GW2?

See, if Adelbern hadn’t been king (And Rurik or somebody else was), then YES, Ascalon could’ve survived longer. But with Adelbern on the throne it was doomed. An isolationist/isolated nation with much of the natural resources destroyed isn’t going to last long.

Another assumption.

“The sudden destruction of most of the kingdom during the Searing has taken much of the fight out of the man now known as King Adelbern. He has become stubborn and set in his ways, afraid of losing what little he has left. But in his son Rurik, the people see a leader with the courage to perhaps help them reclaim their fallen kingdom.

The survivors of Ascalon live in a state of constant warfare, using hit-and-run tactics and the remnants of the Great Wall to prevent any significant advances by the Charr into their territory. King Adelbern has circled the wagons, so to speak, content to simply defend what Ascalon has left and live to fight another day. Prince Rurik, on the other hand, is far more daring than his father thinks is wise, and has even suggested that the time may be coming to launch an offensive against the Charr.

Already the rumbling of the winds of change can be heard in the streets. People are frightened. They wonder what will become of them. Some even wonder aloud if Adelbern has lost what it takes to steer Ascalon back from the brink. They wish to see the prince step up and take command of the kingdom. Perhaps under his guidance, the people of Ascalon will live on to see another golden age. "

Oh really? It’s mad quite clear ingame that Adelbern was stubborn, set in his ways, and refused to change or accept help. He refused to accept the fact Ascalon was LOSING, badly. If Rurik had been king, Ascalon would’ve accepted help, and not become isolationist at the worst time possible.

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier

1) No, I’m saying the destruction wasn’t all-encompassing. Even one of Zain’s quests has you going down to Regent Valley to help him resupply since he’s barred from AC. How could he resupply from the southeast if all of Ascalon is a “wasteland” as you put it? I’m fairly certain Ascalons wouldn’t be giving a Krytan supplies if there wasn’t a steady supply of them coming in.

It didn’t destroy everything, but I don’t see how you think a nation could be self sufficient off of that land post searing. Hell, I don’t see how you played Prophecies and thought Ascalon post searing wasn’t a wasteland.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/e/ea/Prophecies_screenshot_060.jpg Pre searing, a lush, fertile land.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/a/ae/Old_Ascalon.jpg post searing… how is that not a wasteland compared to the first picture?

2) A spy can be tried for treason, it’s a small leap of logic to say Adelbern would think Zain a spy. He hates Krytans. And no, I really don’t think he had Evennia killed. That makes no sense.

Makes no sense for the King who hates krytans to the point he’d rather see his nation die then accept help… would murder a Krytan? Note she said it herself, he’d rather that they ALL DIE then to grant her an audience.

3) You really don’t think that the Titan’s we kill during a quest titled “The Titan Source” aren’t the same one’s the Charr were worshiping? Even Glint said that the Titan threat is over when you finish it, how can that be if the “Charr” Titans are still around?

Because the Titans we kill are ones the Lich Lord sent forth. As I recall, the Titans the Charr found originally were from another place. Specifically, a place that is the Flame Legion capital and they were found 200 years before the searing.

The TITAN threat was over. Titan threat does not equal the Charr threat.

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier: …but tell me, EXPLICITLY, where it states that Ascalon ‘won the war’ at the end of Prophecies.

1582 CC (1072 AE)
“And so we reach the present day. At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.”

Perhaps not explicit enough for you, but it is what it is. I don’t know how you can read that and think the war is still on.

Funny, isn’t that from a document written by a Canthan? Because we all know Adelbern would never make a treaty with Kryta so it’s hard to see Ascalon forming new treaties with Kryta when Kryta itself was in the middle of a government shift (Namely, how the White Mantle were losing their gripe at the time).

edit: Not from a Canthan, but the guy writing it at the exact moment is in Cantha.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

1582 CC (1072 AE)
“And so we reach the present day. At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.”

Sounds like “we were struck badly and now trying to recover from blow, sending ambassadors to Kryta and Elona, asking them for help”. And as we know, they never recovered enough, final assault of Ascalon City ended them. And help never arrived.

Considering we know of Adelbern’s view of Krytans, we know that it’s very, VERY unlikely that he was actually forming treaties with Kryta. If any were being formed, it was likely ‘underground’ and never saw his ‘desk’ as it was.

Ascalon, as of end of Prophecies, was a doomed nation. The only sources of Trade would be from Kryta or Deldrimor. One was on the permanent kittenlist of the King, the other in a civil war. Elonian or Cantha would possibly be trading partners, but the prices would be so expensive because of travel distance and danger Ascalon couldn’t survive.

See, if Adelbern hadn’t been king (And Rurik or somebody else was), then YES, Ascalon could’ve survived longer. But with Adelbern on the throne it was doomed. An isolationist/isolated nation with much of the natural resources destroyed isn’t going to last long.

Shocking, Ascalon didn’t last long after the Searing. About 20 years or so from what I see. The charr caused the Searing, but Adelbern killed Ascalon.

Obsidian.1328:

Every “nation” had territory not included on the explorable map. The Ascalon basin is a big place, there’s a lot of it we don’t get to see. Not to mention trade and diplomacy resumed after the Charr confict…as per Empire Divided says. Where did the Charr grow crops and get water? Food/water logistics and support was not exactly high on the list for ANet’s simulation of Tyria, it would be silly to assume that. I mean, where did Cantha get all that food to feed KC? I remember only seeing a few farm fields in the whole of Cantha…I guess that means they are starved. Really dude?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Pre-Searing_map_clean.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Ascalon_clean.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Tyria_clean_map_2.jpg

You are saying that is not a wasteland?

Also, Cantha obviously had many fertile areas, as well as trade. It also hadn’t been NUKED which turned most water sources into tar and simply destroyed the farms and forests.
Again, Rurik obviously felt staying in Ascalon was a death wish. The area was RUINED.

“The clouds of war gather on the horizon. The hour of the storm is upon us, yet Adelbern still refuses to give me audience. Old fool would rather kill us all than accept help.”

Her dialogue in Old Ascalon.

She went missing from Old Ascalon after spending a while there trying to get help (and give help). Given how Adelbern acted toward the LAST Ambassador to come around, and his feelings toward Krytans in general… You REALLY think Adelbern wasn’t behind her suddenly disappearing in some manner?

It literally fits his mental state and personality to be responsible for murdering (or imprisoning and leaving to rot in a cell) Evennia.

It fits his mental state for GW2 yes. That dialogue was written post EotN, which is a prelude for GW2, ANet has even said so. Do you really think they weren’t already trying to set up the Foefire scenario by further modifying Adelbern’s state of mind?

Again, denying that intro quest to post-searing with the White Mantle ambassador who Adelbern was ready to arrest and put under trial FOR TREASON AGAINST ASCALON. Yeah, how can he be a traitor if he isn’t even one of Adelberns subjects?

Adelbern who banished Rurik for daring to suggest going to the Krytans.

You really think he’s not going to do something stupid concerning the KRYTAN AMBASSADOR sitting outside of Ascalon city asking for Help, with the offer of help afterwards? When said Ambassador stated he’d rather them all to die then to accept any help?

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

But considering how throughout Prophecies after you leave Ascalon, it has no meaning to the plot (until a titan lord appears there and you go to stop it), I fail to see how we stopped the Charr army that was threatening it even after the battle of Rin. We do nothing to clear out the rest of the Charr or any other leadership elements.

The Titan’s were there for years before that “in the lore,” there are wicker effigies of them north of the wall even in pre-searing. There are also two Glint quests where you help Ascalon both kill the remaining Charr leadership, and kill their Titan lords.

And if you think that Ascalon was reduced to only the number of people you could physically see in the game, you’re doing it wrong. By that rationale, there were less than a hundred Charr left in all of Ascalon. Don’t confuse “in-game lore” with the limits of the game mechanics.

We kill the Titan Lords the Lich sent. We don’t kill any named charr leadership in that titan quest.

The end has Glint state “ADELBERN is safe.” Not Ascalon. She states Adelbern’s will is one of the ONLY things keeping Ascalon alive. That Ascalon’s walls and armies have withered since Rurik left.

Again, Rurik states the charr have armies of thousands (not seen ingame), yet we do nothing about this invasion force. Glint states the armies and walls have withered since we left Ascalon, implying said force has been wearing them down.

I’m not some idiot who takes game mechanics as canon, but tell me, EXPLICITLY, where it states that Ascalon ‘won the war’ at the end of Prophecies. Because all I see is “Ascalon is continuing to barely hang on, a massive shadow of it’s former strength and glory.”

Obsidian.1328:

Kryta would have lost to the Charr with or without its king. The whole point of the Mursaat being there was that they saved Kryta, at the cost of complete servitude and sacrificing the Krytan “Chosen” populace on the Bloodstones. If you can argue that they “could” have still won if the king had stayed, then I can argue that Orr “could” have won had Khilbron not blown them up. The narrative certainly doesn’t support either of those notions, but what the hey.

Considering how it is, IIRC, implied that Kryta had a full army that was at least on par with Ascalon’s and Orr’s, Yes, I think they would’ve actually been able to survive if the King hadn’t ran away and left them leaderless and scared.

He also was right to stay and fight, since we all know Ascalon was written to have won the war before GW2 was in development. Perhaps this Adelbern fellow didn’t get a very fair shake with the new writers…

Actually, coming back to this, care to provide this quote that Ascalon ‘won’ and was free of attacking Charr and other threats? Because last I checked, THEY NEVER, EVER say a thing about that. At best, I think Adelbern mentions being left with a ruined kingdom.

But considering how throughout Prophecies after you leave Ascalon, it has no meaning to the plot (until a titan lord appears there and you go to stop it), I fail to see how we stopped the Charr army that was threatening it even after the battle of Rin. We do nothing to clear out the rest of the Charr or any other leadership elements.

Prince Rurik: “Trumpets! The king must be near. The fall of Rin will have darkened his heart. Hail King Adelbern!”
King Adelbern: “Rise, my son. you have done well. The discovery of Stormcaller is surely a sign of victory.”
Prince Rurik: “It is a powerful weapon, but I fear not powerful enough. The Charr have amassed an army of many thousands.”
King Adelbern: “You overestimate these beasts, Rurik. Do not be afraid.”
Prince Rurik: “I am not afraid, father. I have seen them in battle. Rin has been destroyed! It would be wise to escape while we can. We should make for Kryta and rebuild our strength. Not wait here for death.”
King Adelbern: “I will never allow Ascalons to live in the shadow of the Krytans! It is Rin that will be rebuilt. And you will learn your place.”
Prince Rurik: “You have grown proud, Adelbern of Ascalon…proud and foolish!”
King Adelbern: “You would dare call your king a fool? I will hear no more. I banish you from Ascalon! You are no longer my prince, and you are no longer my son!”
Prince Rurik: “People of Rin! Your king will lead you to death. If you wish to see better days, if you wish to live, then leave the beasts behind and follow me over the Shiverpeaks. We make for Kryta and a new life, free of the Charr.”

So tell me, what happens to the “Charr army of many thousands”? Because we sure as hell didn’t do a THING about them.

I’d argue the combat bit is more of a “While being chewed/stabbed/shot at you wouldn’t have the full concentration to activate the waypoint.”

Though at least, I’d say cost is a key factor in waypoint travel period. (looking at that topic and the responses). Like Asura Gate travel, I’d say it gets more and more expensive to use waypoints to go everywhere.

A reason, going strictly theory with this… if being attacked, and you try to use a waypoint, what’s keeping the enemy from going with you (assuming melee combat)? IE, if I try using a waypoint to travel someplace else, and am being grappled by an enemy, he’d probably come with.

Obsidian.1328:

Well they did that for Factions and Nightfall, it’s fairly academic. Or are you one of those people that thinks that everyone running around with that “Hero of Tyria” title is poor lore design because there should be only one? -__-

In Factions or Nightfall, you could either A: Be a new character. or B: be the character from the previous campaign.

In GW2, which was supposed to be an entirely new game, it’d be harder.

I honestly don’t care if everybody uses Hero of Tyria. I’ll personally not RP or play my characters as if they ARE the Commander of GW2. In terms of GW1 character, I treat all of mine as simply being one of MANY heroes who went through those actions. My sunspear characters were simply a few of many sunspears who went through the events of Nightfall and the Realm of Torment.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Kalavier.1097:

C: Because advancing the clock 250 years actually means they can reference the events of GW1 WITHOUT having to explicitly label a ‘canon’ hero. Was it a Ascalonian who did all three campaigns in canon? Or one Ascalon, one Canthan, one Istani?

They could have done it how, imo, they should have done it.

When you link to a GW1 account, you choose which of your character is “the hero” for each campaign you had linked. Any other campaign it’s treated with a ’ArenaNet’s canon’ but where you linked up and chose there’s a ‘personal canon’ – think Dragon Age choices; there’s a “BioWare canon” which goes with a certain set of choices from the games and is used for non-game media (comics and books), but there’s the ‘personal canon’ which is your continuity in the game series.

While possible, I’d say it works less on an MMO game then a single player RPG. Single Player worlds are more… controlled. Bioware has a selection of options and choices, and they pick everything. But an MMO, less so.

Hell, even TOR, which links back to knights of the old republic (1 and 2, where you could somewhat keep your same Revan and events to the second one with early dialogue options), flat out sets a canon exile and Revan, and the canon path.

I think making a ‘canon’ hero of GW1, with all the options having a canon choice and all, and all that being well known (as opposed to the GW1 hero being known, but not 100% details) would cause more issues. Like I said a while ago about Kormir. Making the player become the god would mean either Anet makes a canon GW1 character (who wouldn’t match many, if anybodys character), thus kittening all those people off, or they make the god so unknown/not powerful nobody knows of them… kittening everybody off :P

Also, import bugs. I got mad at Dragon age Inquisition because I got a bit in and THEN found out my world state hadn’t imported.

Obsidian.1328:

Ascalon survived the Searing, and didn’t “lose” until GW2 was in development. So you can’t really argue that Ascalon lost in GW1 when they didn’t until GW2 development. In other words, had GW2 never been made, human Ascalon would still be there.

Ascalon was a wasteland. The fact it healed as much as it has in GW2 is amazing. Tell me, where would they grow crops? Get water? The land, as it was then, wasn’t able to support a population effectively.

That was kinda one of the KEY PARTS OF RURIK’S FOLLOWERS LEAVING. Rurik felt that Ascalon was ruined, and there was no hope there for survival, long term or short. And for the most part, his feelings were good before that. Instead of rivers and lakes, they had pools of Tar. Instead of fertile grasslands and forests, they had burnt and ruined land.

If Adelbern hadn’t wiped out the rest of Ascalon bar Ebonhawke, and the Charr hadn’t continue their assaults, starvation would’ve likely claimed much of the population. I can’t see how anybody could look at post searing Ascalon and go “Yeah, I’d see a nation surviving there.”

Obsidian.1328:

Adelbern killed Evennia?? News to me.

“The clouds of war gather on the horizon. The hour of the storm is upon us, yet Adelbern still refuses to give me audience. Old fool would rather kill us all than accept help.”

Her dialogue in Old Ascalon.

She went missing from Old Ascalon after spending a while there trying to get help (and give help). Given how Adelbern acted toward the LAST Ambassador to come around, and his feelings toward Krytans in general… You REALLY think Adelbern wasn’t behind her suddenly disappearing in some manner?

It literally fits his mental state and personality to be responsible for murdering (or imprisoning and leaving to rot in a cell) Evennia.

No, I said he tried. I never said he succeeded.

I’m calling his attempt to match out and try his as a traitor (that Rurik stopped) as an ATTEMPT.

Hell, He’s heavily implied to have imprisoned or Killed the Shining Blade/Kryta ambassador sent to get Ebon Vanguard/Ascalon help against the White Mantle (with promise of Krytan aid to Ascalon as soon as that was over).

Obsidian.1328:

Explain to me why ANet, with all those leagues and leagues of available space around the old human kingdoms to work with, decided instead to carve up human space and dole it out to the new races? If the answer is racial parity, then that’s a marketing decision.

Explain to me why they had to kill off the gods, advance the clock 250 years, and turn magic into something that is dissected in a laboratory? If the answer is simply wanting to make Tyria your own by inserting your own narrative concepts into the story with little regard to original thematic intent, then that is a pride decision.

Neither decision is a good one.

A: Ascalon was not going to survive in the first place. It’s population wkittentered, the land unable to effectively support a population, and the charr attacking.
B: They didn’t kill off the gods. The gods had not that much influence over kitten in gw1, all chapters. The most often was the res shrines/avatar bonuses you could buy, and the underworld/fissure of woe.
C: Because advancing the clock 250 years actually means they can reference the events of GW1 WITHOUT having to explicitly label a ‘canon’ hero. Was it a Ascalonian who did all three campaigns in canon? Or one Ascalon, one Canthan, one Istani?

If GW2 would’ve happened say… 10 years or even 20 years later, our Gw1 heroes would be alive and well. How would you tell the story without mentioning them or being forced to create a ‘canon’ hero (which would kitten off the MMO players).

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

To use ingame npc dialogue. “The searing is ANCIENT history. Move on.” How can there be hope of peace if there is nothing but clinging to ancient hatreds? Hell, look at what happened to Ascalon. IF Adelbern hadn’t clung to his hate so fiercely, THINGS probably would’ve been different!

Wow…the irony is strong in this one. It’s interesting that the Searing, which was 250 years ago and let the Charr nearly wipe humanity off the Tyrian continent, should be forgived and forgotten. Yet the Charr were perfectly in the right to wage war on humanity a thousand years after being driven out of a small section of their territory. Peaches.

Also, Adelbern never tried to kill the Krytan ambassador. Even though he was a White Mantle…and probably deserved it. Cite a source anywhere.

The way Rurik reacted, and what Adelbern said…

King Adelbern: “Stand aside, Rurik.”
Prince Rurik: “Before you do this, Father, think about your motives.”
King Adelbern: “That Krytan is kitten on the underbelly of Ascalon. I need no further motive than that to cut him away before he does more harm.”
Prince Rurik: “Ambassador Zain is here to offer us aid. He extends his hand in friendship.”
King Adelbern: “No Krytan will ever be a friend of Ascalon.”
Prince Rurik: “Do not be foolish, old man! If you have not noticed, Ascalon is in no position to turn away help, even from those who were once our enemies.”
King Adelbern: “I grow tired of this, Rurik. Step aside this instant! We are here to arrest Ambassador Zain and try him as a traitor of this nation.”
Prince Rurik: “I will not allow you to jeopardize the fate of Ascalon because of your petty jealousy! If you intend to arrest the ambassador, then you will first have to go through me.”
Prince Rurik: “Go home father. Let me deal with this.”
King Adelbern: “This is a mistake, Rurik. Mark my words. This Krytan will be the death of us all.”
King Adelbern: “Guards. With me.”

You know in a setting like gw1, being tried as a traitor typically means death? Adelbern was going to try somebody as being a traitor to Ascalon, WHO WASN’T EVEN ONE OF HIS SUBJECTS.

I also said nothing about the searing being forgiven or Forgotten. Simply to not make that the focus.

Dante.1763:

Kalavier.1097:

But what I see tends to strike me more as “NEVER FORGIVE, NEVER FORGET, ALL CHARR WILL AND ALWAYS BEEN EVIL BEASTS!”

So much this. Its not really a problem in the lore, but when it carries over to their actions and how people treat others(in a video game)? then its a problem, for me at least.

And again everyone misses that fact that its been 250 years, thats a long time for a race to change, and the Charr have changed. Majorly too.

I’m actually going to put this question out, hopefully you can support it Dante.

“What have the current charr government/leadership (and/or RECENT leadership, as in the people directly before Smodur and his fellows), done that warrents such intense, fierce hate? What has the current charr nation (Iron, Blood, Ash) done that is SO HORRIBLE?”

Obsidian.1328:

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

It’s interesting that the Searing, which was 250 years ago and let the Charr nearly wipe humanity off the Tyrian continent, should be forgived and forgotten.

And since when Ascalon = humanity? Also, serves them right.

Humanity on the Tyrian continent. I’m not including Cantha and Elona here. The Searing opened the door for Orr’s annihilation and Kyrta barely escaped by letting the Mursaat enslave them. The Charr certainly tried, read your history.

Orr destroyed themselves, and Kryta, arguably, could’ve defended itself if the King hadn’t kittening RAN AWAY with all his money, leaving the nation utterly leaderless and confused in a dire time.

The Charr 250+ years ago tried. Are the legions the EXACT SAME now? See above question.

edit: Now, true, with GW2 it was shown the Charr attack force had taken searing cauldrens with them and were intended to Sear Orr, but that’s still an attack 250 years ago, and all the charr involved died.

Belzebu.3912:

Kalavier.1097:

Kinda sad they turned it into a one time only storymode instance instead of a storymode dungeon. It’s sometimes fun to replay the air battle part.

When did they change that? Not long ago the Zhaitan fight also happened in the Arah Story Mode.

It either has changed or is going to change.

IIRC, it was in their restoration of the story chapters that had got cut when they revamped it.

IIRC, they mention one time during the story that Zhaitan knows anything the person knows/saw before death, and knows what they see after death.

Likely, the Eyes of Zhaitan simply process all this data and only funnel relevant information to the dragon instead of “Risen Thrall saw a bunny. Chased bunny until it escaped into a burrow.”

Norn surnames are weird.

Though Konig summed it up decently. You’ll see something like Olaf from gw1 “Olaf Olafson” or a name that directly mentions a parents early on, but sometimes they either pick a new surname or do something epic/awesome enough either they or everybody else starts calling them that.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Kalavier.1097:

Course, in three you had a human sidestepping weapons (that gutted capital ships) without even being singed :P

Well, capital ships that evaded the weapon didn’t get singed either. :P

You should be complaining about the land not get singed.

Heh. Or the fact later on Shepard almost gets directly hit by weapon of similar class and isn’t vaporized (despite other infantry being vaporized).

Best Zhaitan argument I ever heard was the five player chars facing off Zhaitan on foot…

We wouldn’t even pierce his hide with handheld weapons :P. Kinda sad they turned it into a one time only storymode instance instead of a storymode dungeon. It’s sometimes fun to replay the air battle part.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mass Effect 2 did it. :P

And 1. And 3.

But then again, they had guns and airships and giant thresher maws….

Hmmm….

Can we make a gun that launches giant wurms to take down the Elder Dragons?

Now wanting to see Great Jungle Wurm vs Shadow of the Dragon (model) in HoT.

Course, in three you had a human sidestepping weapons (that gutted capital ships) without even being singed :P

Lostwingman.5034:

This is fallacious. You could say the same thing about modern Germany, it does not acquit Germany of the things that happened and country does not deny that it empowered the party to act. You can easily draw parallels as well to the former kitten officers that were acquitted of war crimes that went on to serve in major public offices in the cold war, yet it wouldn’t change what many did despite skipping any kind of punishment due to working with the Allies post-war. I mean, even the great “Anti-Flame Legion” Charr revolutionary Pyre Fierceshot had this to say about the war in Ascalon, “My father was a great soldier. Without him, Ascalon would not be the smoldering ruin it is today. I will honor his memory.” So seriously, this “but but MUH FLAME LEGION!” schtick is just a fallacious misdirection. All the Charr were giddy about the successes the Flame Legion brought them even if they didn’t like how they got the power to do so. Again, the whole point is how similar the handling of the Charr is to the “Clean Wehrmacht Myth” and how off putting that inherently is.

Pyre also purposeful kept himself away from the rebellion he started.

FACT: Charr leadership has changed.
FACT: Charr as of GW2, as a society, actually operate different in several ways, making them a better group then they were.

You cannot factually treat the charr as if they have never changed, and STILL behave like the charr from the prophecies era. Because it’s simply not true. Clinging to hate and rage and the past means nothing will improve ever.

To use ingame npc dialogue. “The searing is ANCIENT history. Move on.” How can there be hope of peace if there is nothing but clinging to ancient hatreds? Hell, look at what happened to Ascalon. IF Adelbern hadn’t clung to his hate so fiercely, THINGS probably would’ve been different!

I’d accept it if people went “Yeah, the Charr in the past did some very nasty things. Fortunately, modern Charr are better and have done less (if any) of that kitten.”

But what I see tends to strike me more as “NEVER FORGIVE, NEVER FORGET, ALL CHARR WILL AND ALWAYS BEEN EVIL BEASTS!”

Frosch.7809:

That means the Charr of today are not innocent, they waged war against humanity till recently and even take pride in their ancestor’s actions. They have not earned forgiveness. I do not expect them to apologize. I do expect them to stop to gloat about genocide and all their barbaric acts. I do expect them to leave humanity in peace. I am sure they will fail at that in the long run because it is in their nature. Should the Elder Dragons all get defeated the Charr will fall back into their old habits and either wage war among the three Legions or look for an external foe. And who will that be?

I’m tired of that argument. “Oh, if no Elder Dragons the charr will INSTANTLY WAGE WAR ON EVERYBODY ELSE LIKE SOME GENERIC MONSTER RACE!”

About the Foefire: it was the last defiant act against the Charr who would have murdered every remaining human in Ascalon City including civilians. It spoiled their victory and simply put that is what they can’t stand. They react with demonizing Adelbern.
In no way was the Foefire an atrocity against the Charr who once more were the aggressor. The Foefire was excessive, yes, and i pity the ghosts, but no pity for the Charr from my part. You try to storm a city to murder everyone inside? There is the chance that you will die instead.

The ghosts deserve to find peace, but the Charr do not deserve to be freed from what they themselves caused. Their actions caused the Foefire. And if people want to blame humanity instead for having driven them out from land that was not theirs, well that wasn’t the start of it all. That was the Charr invading Grawl land. Which again leaves the Charr as the original cause of events. The Charr bear responsibility for the Searing, the Cataclysm, the invasion of Kryta, the Foefire and waging war against humanity till recently.

Have you seen Adelbern? He’s not a nice guy. In ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. He tried to murder a White Mantle ambassador. For what reason? BEING KRYTAN. He banished his own son for daring to suggest Ascalon was lost and they should actually go to lands capable of growing crops and supporting the population.

Also, the Foefire was an atrocity. Have you seen some of the random dialogue of the ghosts? Some of them were trying to flee the city, actually made it outside and away from the Charr forces, only to die horribly and turn into ghosts. It denies everybody the land.

A friend put the foefire like this. “It’s a magical tac-nuke.”

About the Charr sending a ship full of Ascalonian relics: one attempt at ending hostilities in 1250 years. The ship never made it due to some pirates capturing it, therefore of course the war between Charr and humanity went on (and that was only after the Charr had sent a ship to scout an invasion route to Lion’s Arch, which had failed to return due to Zhaitan’s rise. They could no longer invade Kryta over the sea.). Had the Charr been serious they could have tried again. Instead people blame humanity for going on with a war the Charr had kept going for over a thousand years, that’s something.

I said that pirates sunk the ship.

Also, you mention “If they were serious about it, THEY’D SEND ANOTHER!”. Send another ship full of priceless artifacts and relics (Who says they actually have tons more of those), on a route which explicitly got raided by pirates?

Also, It’s actually stated on Prince Edairs page that things went south when HE went to Ebonhawke.

Honestly, pulling off a fight with a creature some 500m long… is hard to do :P.

I doubt the channeled legends can actually control a person in the lore. Also, Shiro’s first bid at coming back to life worked because he (as a spirit) was free to wander about as part of his job as an Envoy.

I don’t think he could pull the same trick off again.

Game mechanics don’t accurately showcase what a class CAN do at times.

Example, we know Mesmers can summon massive illusions (Either single items or huge numbers of people). Such effort actually harms the Mesmer most of the time (The one was blinded for a while summoning an illusion of the Eye of the North, and when she summoned an illusionary horde of soldiers, she later wandered back to the Ebon Vanguard and fell over dead.)

We know Necromancers can summon many minions, yet mechanics limit us player to a handful.

Guardians likely could be very good healers like heavily armored monks (IIRC, a style of monk magic is in the mix of guardian), but we can’t exactly go pure healing monk GW1 style :P.

So yes, outside of combat there is plenty of stuff the classes could do that would be helpful or non-destructive.

About the ‘clean german army’ stuff. I’m hardly saying or meaning to imply they DIDN’T do bad things or weren’t involved in any way shape or form. But there is always an element of the general getting the blame and the soldiers were following orders.

Anyway.

Charr in GW2:
Don’t capture enemies and force them into slavery.
Don’t eat captured or slain sentient foes.
Maintain the land and lakes, instead of burning it all down.
Actively include females into military, command, and support roles.
Allow non-humans into the Black Citadel, they are treated like everybody else and protected by the laws of the city. (Npc dialogue can be overheard where humans are surprised a Charr would step in to protect them.)
Are actively involved in forging peace with humans. In the past were on the road to getting peace with Ebonhawke before certain events happened.

Charr in GW1:
Actively captured enemies and used for slave labor.
Are known to have eaten prisoners and enemies.
Burnt and ruined the lands of Ascalon, showed no care about this matter. Enemy charr in EOTN caused a huge forest fire in the one corner of a map, and IIRC, the one battlefield was heavily damaged landscape wise.
Ban females from any role other then “Cook, farmer, wife.”, Don’t care at all about them really.
Look upon other races as lesser, as shown when Pyre gets his warband back together each one actively goes along the lines of “What, these humans are actually helping you and aren’t prisoners/slaves?”
Also had no development or improvement, hell, the STONE SUMMIT had more development then the Charr. Unsurprising given how the Charr were literally enemies for a tiny section of the story, once the heroes left Rin, Ascalon wasn’t a focus in any way until post final mission. Even that was one mission :P.

Now, what was the difference? Oh, Who was in charge in the two eras. Once the Flame Legion was removed from control, the Charr improved as a race drastically.

Lostwingman.5034:

Kalavier.1097:

513137kitteninz.6915:

Secondly, the technology we see the charr having is mainly the domain of the Iron Legion. The Ash and Blood still much lower tech in their own lands. Blood actually leans quite heavily on warbeasts over high tech engineering. Do remember we have only seen the Iron Legion lands which are by the nature of the Legions the heart of Charr engineering.

Just going to pop in and tell you that shortly after creating the Ghostbore Musket, both Blood AND Ash legion have successfully recreated and modified it to both work as either a small remote turret or a giant cannon.

Hard to do if they were behind Iron Legion in terms of tech. They just have less Engineers is all.

Eh, there’s a difference between R&D and reproduction. We don’t entirely know the logistics behind it so either the Iron Legion is supplying them of the other two legions have been given the plans for it.

Yeah, but the plans were for a rifle, not a cannon or a small mobile turret.

There is elements of R&D involved in turning it to either item :P. Either way, it’s not so much of Ash or Blood being behind Iron legion majorly, and more of Iron Legion has way more engineers. And that we are in Iron Legion lands.

Because Orr was basically wiped out and very few survived it (IIRC, the only survivors were traders, merchants, and those travelling away from the place during the events)?

Because Ascalon now exists in the Settlement in Kryta and Ebonhawke only?

Krytan is the dominate culture because the other two local cultures simply don’t exist in great numbers anymore.

Lutinz.6915:

Secondly, the technology we see the charr having is mainly the domain of the Iron Legion. The Ash and Blood still much lower tech in their own lands. Blood actually leans quite heavily on warbeasts over high tech engineering. Do remember we have only seen the Iron Legion lands which are by the nature of the Legions the heart of Charr engineering.

Just going to pop in and tell you that shortly after creating the Ghostbore Musket, both Blood AND Ash legion have successfully recreated and modified it to both work as either a small remote turret or a giant cannon.

Hard to do if they were behind Iron Legion in terms of tech. They just have less Engineers is all.

Lutinz.6915:

Your basically saying that the invading charr were only Flame Legion or that only the Flame Legion participated in the atrocities. There is no evidence of that and certainly no evidence that the charr at the time gave a kitten . Charr are extremely pragmatic and extremely brutal. Ends generally justify the means as long as the ramifications don’t come back to bite you in the kitten . This is a race where a higher ranking soldier (and every charr is part of the military) can gut you for a failure and the other charr will take it as justified. Pyre was proud of his father. We know his involvement cause Pyre tells the player. Pyre was also completely unapologetic about what the charr did to the humans.

I’m saying something more like “Not all Germans were kitten’s” in WW2. NOT EVERY Charr was Flame Legion, but Flame Legion was the driving force. Also, the “gutting for failure”, that is more blood Legion style, and not Ash or Iron. Pyre was proud of his father, but he also did little to influence the rebellion, he started it and then instantly backed off.

They have a statue in the BC of the first charr to ever reach the top of Ebonhawke’s walls. The siege wasn’t a joke, particularly for those inside. Again Ghost’s of Ascalon made that pretty kitten clear. Hell, even visiting the Fields of Ruin and talking to the NPCs shows how deep those hatreds run and how hard it is for them to be buried. There is a Vanguard veteran who states she doesn’t think she will ever be able to completely abandon her hate of Charr but her hope is that that hate can die with her generation.

The great irony of the acts of the Separatists and the Renagades are they give the Ebon Vanguard and the Charr as shared enemy which actually pulls the two sides closer together. Funnily enough that’s how Ryltock and Logan first started off. It was others trying to kill them that got them to stop trying to kill each other.

No, but it certainly wasn’t a focus of all three Legions. Also, what year is stated for that statue? Early on or recent? And for the hatred, I also recall there are TWO (one human one charr) who state they can’t forgive the other side. However there are also other npcs in the same area who state “Man, these guys aren’t nearly as bad as we had been told. The stories they told us aren’t entirely true…”

Kalavier.1097:

The Searing also is being healed and doesn’t plague the land with endless issues trying to MURDER EVERYTHING, human or Charr.

Honestly, the effects of the searing have long passed, the land is fertile and growing plants and the rivers are water, not tar. Ascalon is capable of supporting life. Meanwhile, the foefire is on the minds of everybody in Ascalon, EVERY SINGLE DAY because the ghosts are ALL OVER and CONSTANTLY ATTACKING.

And it was ironically the Ghosts that Smolder used as the core of his argument to end the war with humans. The charr didn’t need more enemies at the time.

Again, I think the Foefire was an atrocity. However considering it was a similar type of magic (ie. forbidden) that handed the Charr Ascalon in the first place, its kind of rich for them to play moral superiority.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t hate the Charr, I don’t think they should be ‘bad guys’ and I don’t think humans should be reclaiming Ascalon. I actually want to see humanity move beyond clinging to the past save maybe for the Six to have some relevance to them again. I infact LIKE the charr, warts and all. The question in this thread was what we don’t like about the charr. Ive been talking about there warts.

Yes, the charr, like every other race has those warts and a good part of them are shown in how they acted in their conquest of Ascalon. Don’t try to whitewash them. Let them wear their warts like the Asura, the Norn, and most definitely, the humans do. Hell even the Sylvari now have their warts.

Actually, the Charr don’t claim moral high ground about that. They hardly mention the searing at all really.

The Charr have issues. My Issue is when they get turned into devils who can never, ever be forgiven. When it seems like people just accuse every single Charr as being that way. I’m tired of just seeing hatred toward the Charr. “Why?” “SEARING!” And that’s it. Acting as if Iron legion continues doing kitten like that everywhere and they were the masterminds behind it.

Also, as of current story, Kryta is more secure. The war with Centaurs is certainly less of an issue now then it was ‘at game start’ timewise.

Honestly… I think in a sense the issue comes from the human side refusing to take fault for what they’ve done. Ascalon has explicitly been stated to been taken from the Charr by force. Charr simply responded to this by invading back to reclaim their homeland. That’s what the siege of Ebonhawke is IMO… them simply trying to kick out that last pesky bit of the nation. Now there is peace forming and humanity WILL GET some of Ascalon back.

Yet that’s not enough. Most Adelbern ascalonians I see (aka most players it seems) aren’t happy at all unless the Charr just GIVE UP EVERYTHING they’ve taken back, and go back north of the wall and just throw away anything and everything they’ve worked on to ‘make it up to the humans’.

Lutinz.6915:

The Charr were genocidal to humans. Those they didn’t kill they enslaved, often working to death, sacrificing in brutal rituals and, at least in one case, threw them to beasts to be torn apart for the entertainment of watching Charr. This included children. Those aren’t view points. They are actually things we see happen in GW1.

And while the other Legions weren’t leading, they did have members involved. Pyre’s sire was one of the scouts who infiltrated Ascalon use the Grawl to set up the Searing.

Said throwing to beasts was EOTN though. This falls into the “Flame Legion lead everybody and had a stranglehold on control.” Also, as set up by the lore… Parents don’t have THAT much say in Charr upbringing. It’s not like Pyre knew dear old dad and was taught everything he knew about that. Pyre also was willing to work with humans and didn’t feel sorry.

Charr scholars? It’s kind of misleading for your to say ‘ONE MONUMENT’ and then say Charr scholars as if there are a lot of them. I’ve only found one who is a priory member say that and that NPC seems to suggest that the ‘biased viewpoint’ is the popular opinion.

One of the Charr’s better traits is a general intolerance of stupidity caused by pride.

Plenty of Charr in the Priory (Also there are at least three charr scholars IIRC investigating the ruins of Rin). Even then, outside of that location and BC… it’s not brought up or touched. Oldgate and IIRC, Piken Square ruins imply some Charr dislike the Flame Legion actions. I have never gotten the sense that the Flame Legion gets hero worship because of the Searing/breaking the wall.

True. Of course that’s ignoring that the Charr, who had been the agressors from the start of the war, had had Ebonhawke under a siege over a 100 years by that point. Its kind of misleading to suggest that the Flame Legion was overthrown and the next day the Charr started making nice.

I never, ever suggested the Charr instantly made nice. I simply pointed out that in the case of Ebonhawke, the charr made the first gestures of Peace and the Krytan prince ruined everything. Honestly, the way it all was described, the sieges were less of a focus of the legions and more of just something they did. Hell, we know for a fact at the cease fire being signed a human walked out of the gates with some beer, went up to the Charr, and both sides just sat down and had a kittening drink. Some mortal enemies they are if they literally can have a drink and become friends after that.

Kalavier.1097:

Also, I’d say the foefire is a direct atrocity commited toward the Charr. and humanity both. It killed every charr on that battlefield, and the ghosts continue to try to slaughter charr and anything else. Caused by Adelbern, who refused to change his ways and that literally cost him everything.

Adelbern’s attack was very much an atrocity. My point was that considering the Charr’s conquest of Ascalon was greatly facilitated by the Searing, its kind of rich of them to talk, particularly since you don’t generally see them condemning the Searing.

The Searing also is being healed and doesn’t plague the land with endless issues trying to MURDER EVERYTHING, human or Charr.

Honestly, the effects of the searing have long passed, the land is fertile and growing plants and the rivers are water, not tar. Ascalon is capable of supporting life. Meanwhile, the foefire is on the minds of everybody in Ascalon, EVERY SINGLE DAY because the ghosts are ALL OVER and CONSTANTLY ATTACKING.

Which would be talked about more? Something that happened over 250+ years ago, and largely has zero effect on modern life… or something that happened a while ago (admittedly, not terribly long after end of EOTN. I think the Ebon Vanguard got recalled and sent south during Winds of Change)… but constantly affects daily life, threatens many things across the entire region…

I mean, hell, one of the things that made the Charr not want to go to the meeting about Mordremoth was because their primary armies were all tied up dealing with the GHOSTS and Flame Legion primarily. And if the Ghosts could be taken out of the equation, THEN they could send troops.

Honestly, the Charr version of the story is VERY believable given how utterly crazy Adelbern was. The entire ebonhawke expidition? all the civilians were either sent on it for speaking out against him, or joined the day it left. The historian implies it was moreso fear of Adelbern then love of the Ebon Vanguard.

Also the fact that no human survived seeing the foefire event that I’ve ever heard of, while the Charr had a warband survive the battle and return haunted.