Guild Wars 2

overcharge abilities need to be instant for starters…

And than almost all the cooldowns relating to turrets need to be lowered.

When those 2 are done, they can look to what other buffs seem fitting.
But those 2 really need to change or turrets will never be good enough.

I wouldn’t give turrets absolute massive damage, this would lead to yet another burst specc soon to be nerfed again…

What turrets need for me is:

- better survivability, they die too fast, traited or not, repaired with tool kit or not

- instant working overcharge abilities, when we need those, we need them NOW… not ‘soonish’

- shorter cooldowns on everything: the turret itself, the overcharge ability and the toolbelt skill in a few cases.

- and last, but in my view least: some more damage, but nothing spectacular IF they get tons of better utility!

Simple solutions that could work for stun breakers and buffing turrets, could be:

let turrets be deployable when stunned…

This would allow that build to be incredibly effective against any stunning enemy, which would be a great buff to turret utility in general.
Take 3 turrets and be better of than even having a stunbreaker…

Not saying you should be able to overcharge or explode your turret when stunned, the auto-ability alone could make a difference.
Just like kit refinement makes a difference when stunned for kit builds.

Zinwrath.2049:

@Karl,
something i think should be noted. The toolkit seems to have innate synergy with the turrets, meaning if you want to go a turret build in spvp…the toolkit should be an obvious choice, but you have to give up a turret leaving you with only 2. Meaning you prob will want a damage one and a utility one…meaning your dps from them will be low.

Is it possible to give the toolkit a further synergy through like….wacking them buffs them with might maybe crowbar gives them fury. To impose more reason to hit them then just little heals. Also perhaps using an ability on a target (magnet pull for examp) makes the turrets have extra effectiveness on that target for a duration?

Just some ideas to make toolkit/turret play style a lot more enjoyable.

very good point. A real ‘turret build’ would likely use at least 2 and maybe a stun breaker, or even 3 turrets… but than you have Tool Kit being designed to work with turrets.
How does this compute? Healing turret and 1 turret, 1 stunbreaker and Tool Kit? And just call it a ‘turret build’ because it uses at least 1 non healing turret?

Stunbreaker is a weak point of both kit builds and turret builds.
This is where traits like kit refinement come into play. Make sure we have valid alternatives when you adress such traits and when you look at turrets (and kits).

For kit refinement I hope they adress the individual powers of the free grenade barrage and super elixir, and not the trait in itself, as they did last time…

Making the trait unreliable was a very bad solution to what may be a valid concern.

Make those two aspects weaker if you really want, but make the procs usefull and reliable.

Udolpho.1209:

Our latest invention — Elixir S! This elixir is Super-Splendid!

It Shrinks you! It Stealths you! It will even break out of Stun! Yes, this elixir does it all. Get yours today!

*(sideeffectsmayincludeSeizures.notresponsiblefordeathorinjury.)

too good not to quote, even if it’s just the post above

Oh, when we’re discussing the ways to avoid it, there’s a lot more than that.
By the way: stunbreaker might sometimes help nothing, since you’re not stuned or even immobilized each time.

best thing to do, if you can time it: reflect.
If you have acces to a few seconds of projectile reflection, the barrage grenades will hit the engineer…

A simple block: probably the easiest to pull of. Depending on your acces to block of course.

A few seconds of invulnerability.

Stun the engineer…

Knock the engineer back…

Why do all these things work so well against 100nades, and less against for example thieves or 100blades?
Simple answer actually, returning to the first thing in this post: the engineer will not often be stunning you!
So you’re free to do a lot of things while he positions himself inside of you. Other than with a thief or warrior stun.

In most cases you won’t be able to move, but at least you can do all non moving defenses that were described above.

when I pull someone, the first thing they do is dodge.
I don’t use 100nades by the way, but I have always used Tool Kit, in any build I try. So I have been pulling people for ages, ever since the shorter range.

And this is the baseline: whenever I pull someone, they dodge… time and time again.
If i can pull them at all of course, more often it fails.

What does this mean for 100nades?
Simple: if the target dodges the moment after they are pulled, most, if not all, of the first grenade barrage will miss.
To get the second one to land at all, the engineer will have to close the gap with the dodging and moving target, and locking him down.
Rifle is good for that, if they didn’t start by swapping to grenade kit first, which would mean they don’t have rifle active.

A simple dodge after the pull can ruin half of the burst, if not more.

Don’t get me wrong: I think 100nades has potentially too much burst, almost the same as other builds of other professions.
Personally I don’t like such burst, on any character.

But the moral of the story is that 100nades burst is perhaps easier to avoid than many of the other burst that is going around. or at least not harder to avoid.
After all the engineer has next to no stuns so that’s hardly part of the set up.

it can be extremely frustrating when it lands, but it’s not worse than other professions. At best it’s just as lame as what others can do…

pza.8024:

Kimbald.2697:

pza.8024:

Kimbald.2697:

We mostly ask for a hide option, but they seem to refuse that so our enemies can see what kit we’re using.
Lame argument, since it could be done more subtle… but let’s assume that is a valid reason not to hide it.

while looking at other professions i cant see any reason for this beeing valid. noone has to show the enemy what he’s gonna do before a battle.

not before the battle, but in the battle.

When an engineer swaps to a kit, the enemy must know he changed his skill set. Just like you see that another profession equips a new weapon.

For ele’s their attunement ‘bracelets’ change and are visable (subtle) so for engineers the kits must be visable (much less subtle…).

It’s not that you can see the kit backpack before battle, not unless the engineer actually has it equipped. Which is the same for other professions: you only ee what weapon they have currently equipped before battle.

make them walk with a bomb or healthpack in their hands, a special mechanical granade slinging arm (if they want to keep the stupid range) or the combination of wrench in mainhand + toolbox in offhand. flamethrower is ok with a backpack, and elixiergun is clearly visible without a backpack.

I agree it can be done so much better, funnier and prettier.
Just explaining what I think is their reasoning, not agreeing with it.

Vekthor.8914:

Kimbald.2697:

Vekthor.8914:

Kimbald.2697:

My little steampunk Asura, not just with gogles… but with a bionic arm as well

Wiggely Wombat.

How did you get the “bionic arm”? I’m assuming it’s from the Coat. What’s the name of it?

It’s all in the dyes…

Basically I wear almost all Order of whispers gear, except the goggles and the shield.
Those googles and shield give the total picture that push in the steampunk direction.
The daggers etc on the Whispers gear can also be seen as mechanics and valves and all of that, so it fits the big picture.

Now for that arm:

if you color the Whispers gear carefully, you’ll notice that a part of the arm shares color with a part of the chest, some small detail. In the picture: the black in middle of the arm, and a part of the chest design.
Since you only have 1 shoulder piece, you can match that color as well. And the same for the single glove. Those I used the more white-blueish coloring to stand out, but still match the dark I used for middle arm-chest bit.
So I took ‘metallic’ colors for the small chest detail, shoulder and glove. While I took warmer colors for all the rest.

I matched the gogles with the arm for another mechanical touch.

The arm could have even more metallic coloring, but than it doidn’t stand out as much as now, which defeated the purpose. It has to look like a real seperate piece from the rest of the clothes.

Thank you for the detailed reply!

I’m now considering doing that on my engy. I too aimed for a steampunk feel, but my ending result was far different from yours. I focused more on the Victorian theme, and less in mechanical parts. However, the goggles are indeed essential. Here is a screenshot for reference:

very stylish coat though… which one is that?

But the fact that order of whispers gear has single shoulder and single glove, is of course essential to the mechanical arm look.
And the coat has no arms so it doesn’t cover it all up too much.
Having one arm undressed helps for seperating the look of the armored arm.
Also that the shoulder has thingamagics on it (daggers but they look mechanical).

suggestion: make a short seperate video explaining each build you use, traits and all but no fighting as such. Just the build, a complete but short overview of what it is good for.
In the fighting video’s you simply say ‘today I use this or that build, link below’

Might simplify the to focus the video’s on the fighting mechanics itself, and less on the rundown of traits as a whole.

Not sure if you are familiar with the dueling video’s of a WoW hunter named Zumio.
His video’s were worth it because he started by explaining his opponents most important skills, and how he coul counter that or not.
Than he went step by step on one duel. The rest was duel footage where he won and lost some.

Zumio also has other video’s, but these duelling guides were edited and explained very nice.
It’s just an example of how simple explanations can be worth more than fancy effects and one awesome fight after the other…

I would, but than again it involves zero effort from my part.

Khezekiah Bellamy.5016:

I am noticing a lack of shields.

Ceci n’est pas un bouclier…

I’m noticing an abundance of goggles, monocles, monoggles or whatever you want to call the eyepatch thingies.

I’m not surprised a zombie would get cought by 100nades.

pza.8024:

Kimbald.2697:

We mostly ask for a hide option, but they seem to refuse that so our enemies can see what kit we’re using.
Lame argument, since it could be done more subtle… but let’s assume that is a valid reason not to hide it.

while looking at other professions i cant see any reason for this beeing valid. noone has to show the enemy what he’s gonna do before a battle.

not before the battle, but in the battle.

When an engineer swaps to a kit, the enemy must know he changed his skill set. Just like you see that another profession equips a new weapon.

For ele’s their attunement ‘bracelets’ change and are visable (subtle) so for engineers the kits must be visable (much less subtle…).

It’s not that you can see the kit backpack before battle, not unless the engineer actually has it equipped. Which is the same for other professions: you only ee what weapon they have currently equipped before battle.

Creld.8702:

This was originally for spvp, I’m not too great at building for wvw/pve, but I would assume the same base concept would apply, toughness/condition damage/healing power. Possibly lowering toughness/healing power in straight pve content for condition damage/vitality. If anyone tries this in wvw, let me know. My computer is too hodge-podged to be reliable in wvw right now.

For the moment i use a simular build in WvW, with a very big exception:

I trade in healing for ranged damage.
In other words: instead of going 30 points in inventions for elixir-infused bombs, I go 30 points in firearms for Coated Bullets that give piercing shots on pistol.

I used both versions, and they both are good.
In spvp I would use the healing bombs for sure, since your job is to be at that point.
In WvW the ranged option of piercing shots is very valuable in bigger fights. When they come closer, you can still use bombs… but they don’t heal anyone at that point.

You mention swapping to Elixir Gun when stunned, for the proc of Super Elixir.
There is more: swap to each kit, for a free bomb (2 with med kit) and a cripple bleed.
And also: since you use Elixir Gun, you also have the toolbelt regen from elixir gun, that too can be used when stunned, and it stacks with that free super elixir light field you just put down.
I use runes of grenth myself, so I put chill down as well when swapping to med kit when stunned.

Weapon swap sigil are really good in such a build, because you will use them on cooldown every single time.
I use the one that gives 50% endurance back at the moment. So I dodge twice, swap kit, dodge again.
But other options are valid as well of course.

We mostly ask for a hide option, but they seem to refuse that so our enemies can see what kit we’re using.
Lame argument, since it could be done more subtle… but let’s assume that is a valid reason not to hide it.

the next best thing is indeed letting us dye it.
This would keep the backpack visable for enemies but also allow us to have some customisation at least.

I really really like this idea Vuh!

Vekthor.8914:

Kimbald.2697:

My little steampunk Asura, not just with gogles… but with a bionic arm as well

Wiggely Wombat.

How did you get the “bionic arm”? I’m assuming it’s from the Coat. What’s the name of it?

It’s all in the dyes…

Basically I wear almost all Order of whispers gear, except the goggles and the shield.
Those googles and shield give the total picture that push in the steampunk direction.
The daggers etc on the Whispers gear can also be seen as mechanics and valves and all of that, so it fits the big picture.

Now for that arm:

if you color the Whispers gear carefully, you’ll notice that a part of the arm shares color with a part of the chest, some small detail. In the picture: the black in middle of the arm, and a part of the chest design.
Since you only have 1 shoulder piece, you can match that color as well. And the same for the single glove. Those I used the more white-blueish coloring to stand out, but still match the dark I used for middle arm-chest bit.
So I took ‘metallic’ colors for the small chest detail, shoulder and glove. While I took warmer colors for all the rest.

I matched the gogles with the arm for another mechanical touch.

The arm could have even more metallic coloring, but than it doidn’t stand out as much as now, which defeated the purpose. It has to look like a real seperate piece from the rest of the clothes.

Chickenshoes.6250:

I used the mortar while I was farming Zho’qafa catacombs before everyone found out final rest dropped on the shadow behemoth and I was doing pointless grinding of a long and hard group event for greens. Chill and basilisk venom are the only forms of CC that work on abominations and having a frost field up on the champions really helped. I got nothing for it, but at least now I really know how to work the champion abomination spawn in CoE. When the group whines and moans that the abomination is coming to disassemble, clean, and oil their clocks I just pull out the mortar and mail everyone a ghost pepper popper which applies chill on critical at night. It’s always nighttime in CoE.

I think Elixir X needs work too. There’s nothing like going into an ultimate form and doing way less damage and not having defensive options. I think that as the hulk I should be doing more damage with punches than what I can muster on the kitten toolkit. The tornado is alright though. If you do it at the right time, it can really disrupt enemy zergs in WvW. In PvE however, it’s an AoE that makes you throw the targets around and separate them. Using it in a dungeon to spread the enemies around when everyone is trying to stack them up to AoE is a good way to change people’s minds about giving engineers a chance at grouping.

the thing is: a grenadier can keep up chill even better than the mortar, especially if he uses runes or sigils effecting chill as well. Or condition duration in general.

That’s the real downfall of the mortar: anything the mortar can do, a grenadier can do better.
Except the heal and the knockback.

Not saying the mortar is as bad in pve as it is in pvp, but still no elite should be outperformed by a grandmaster trait so much. Elite has to be elite…

possible improvements, without redesigning the darn thing which should be the REAL solution:

- increase the range to 1500 untraited and 1800 traited. If it doesn’t outrange the max player range than it will always end up weak simply because it is not mobile.
Just hold an engineer duel where one uses mortar and the other grenades to see what I mean.

- the heal and knockback have to be usable at min range.
When the mortar is melee attacked, there is no defense. That’s when you could use the heal and the knockback.

- the global cooldown has to be lowered to normal skill cooldown.

My dream solution: make the thing mobile, like a temporary weapon kit.
A shoulder carried bazooka.
We all know the Charrzooka is better in design than the Mortar.

not working in WvW either, which basically means not working anywhere…

My little steampunk Asura, not just with gogles… but with a bionic arm as well

Wiggely Wombat.

small detail: isn’t that a 30/10/0/30/0 build? It’s a small typo I’m sure, since you mention the traits from that line anyhow.

nice guide, seems pretty basic in the explanation but often those are the best.

I don’t use this build at all, so can’t comment on anything for real. Just here to say I like the effort.

Brinson.7289:

I would also call it a 20s CD.
But maybe they changed EG so that you can’t have a continuous light field + heal down so they changed how this one skill is effected by the trait.
I’m not speaking about anything except EG. Just because the trait works for one utility; doesn’t mean it has to work exactly the same for each of them.

I’m not trying to say im right and your wrong. I was trying to explain what you were trying to explain in different words. I don’t care what anyone calls it.
In the end KR wont proc with EG until 10s after that light field is gone.

the biggest issue at the moment is that it’s not so clear what they intended to do… and what unintended things they changed by doing it.
Also it seems that they planned to include tool kit completely (see patch notes) but somehow it doesn’t proc the internal coodlown if used first. it only loses it own proc if EG or FT are used first. Which is a change by itself of course, but not ‘fully’ as the patch notes suggest.

In other words: they made a mess of things…

Brinson.7289:

Kimbald.2697:

edited a badly written post to a less badly written post but still not happy about the clarity of it…

EG’s proc from KR does not start its timer until the 10s light field disappears.
Effectively making it a 20s CD from the time you initially switched to the EG.

I call that a 20 second cooldown, since I count all cooldowns from the initial use. Never from the end of the effect.
I also think it is calculated from the start, as any other ability seems to be.
But that’s hair splitting: if someone wants to say it’s a 10 second cooldown once the 10 second effect has ended… be my guest

As a comparison:
the OP mentions a 10 second cooldown on the proc from Tool Kit as well.
The proc is ‘box of nails’ which lasts 4 seconds.
So this would mean, by the same reasoning, that the new proc only happens after 14 seconds (duration first, than cooldown start).
it doesn’t: it starts at 10 seconds after initial effect.

So either we say EG has 10 seconds and Tool Kit 6 seconds… or make it simple and say EG has 20 seconds and tool kit 10 seconds.
You can’t mix up the two…

Just a little side note:

yesterday at the Greenwater supply camp in ARBL I fought a thief.
I played very bbad and basically messed up the fight and got downed.
The thief waved at me and didn’t stomp me.
He knew he won and didn’t have to prove that any further.

I was genuinly impressed by this noble behaviour.

In case there were more victims… I was the clumsy Asura engineer not having a clue what to do first in this fight.

To answer if you in particular need power or not, we should know what weapons or kits you use.
I’m guessing p/p and no grenades, after reading your post… but that doesn’t help on what you do use instead of grenades.

It’s not that you ‘need’ power in a condition build.
It can help, but it’s not a must.

I’m a 4 kit engineer, no way I can rely on one form of damage alone.
I use pistol with either shield or second pistol, and Elixir gun… those scream condition damage (but still have a large pure power component too).
But I also use flamethrower often and tool kit… those scream power (except the minor burning of FT and the awesome confusion of prybar).

My gear tends to aim for 1500 power, 1500 precision, 1000 condition damage. So not a lot of either, but a decent mix for a more tanky player.

To be honest: when using the shield, and the Elixir gun mostly as defense… I go full out soldiers gear on pow-vit-tough.
Depends on my mood and the setting of the fights.
My runes of grenth and my 30 traits in explosives are the only cond damage and precision I have left than…

Elixir gun proc from kit refinement was 10 seconds you say?

1. Ok, so that means you could swap to EG and get the proc, right?

2. That super elixir proc has a 10 second dutration, right?
So swap to EG and get 10 second light field.

3. That means that at the end of that you could re-swap the EG and get another proc?
So swap to EG, get 10 second light field, reswap to EG and get 10 more seconds light field. Without using the normal proc yet.

4.That also means that people did not chain the procced Super Elixir to the real Super Elixir from EG#5 to add them up to a 20 second duration? Which seemed to be the way how we got a permanent light field.
You say: we could swap to EG, get proc for 10 seconds, use normal super elixir and get double light field for those 10 seconds… AND re-swap to EG immediately for another proc?

For the record: I am saying this:
EG kit refinement proc had a Twenty second cooldown, and we coupled that on the normal one for either:
-10 seconds stacking double light field, and than wait till the normal one was up again (20 or16 sec traited cooldown)
-20 continuous single light field, if we used the proc first, wait 10 sec duration and than use the normal one for another 10 seconds duration. At wich point the proc is up again so we re-swap the EG

edited a badly written post to a less badly written post but still not happy about the clarity of it…

So elixir gun remains uneffected by the patch?
I’m sure you didn’t mean to say this.
Do you mean when you use Elixir gun by itself? In which case: obviously…

If you mean in combo with the tool kit: than mostly it’s the same yes, except when you reverse the order in which you use them. As stated in the linked post.

If you mean in combo with other kits? That entirely depends on the kit and/or the order in nwhich you swap them. Also as stated in the linked post.

And how would I be basing my whole argument on grenade kit, when I didn’t say anything about grenade kit?
In case you’re still in doubt: I am NOT basing my argument on grenade kit. Not at all.

Why do I seem offended by your post?
Pretty simple: you start by saying that others write nonsense about the kit refinement change, and than you go on to write things that seem very fishy to me. What you write does not correspod with my own findings, nor with what others posted.

Please go read the linked post, than we can talk.

This thread for example is covering the changes in a more correct manner:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Kit-refinement-nerf-tested-explained/first#post1570490

Sorry to be so harsh, but if your first line starts with saying how you want to straighten something out, and how much nonsense you read… you better make sure your own post is correct.

Specterryu Quipter.8412:

I want to straighten something out before I actually mention the build I am talking about. I keep seeing this nonsense on Kit Refinement being broken, I can say this matter of factly, the KR ability on both the Elixir Gun and Tool Kit have always been, and remain at 10 seconds. The only change is the KR ability on both of them now has a shared a cool down. (As well as the Flamer and Nade kits.) This doesn’t break KR, it just requires us to rethink our rotation. Perhaps this wasn’t the case with the grenade kit, I wouldn’t know, since I avoid this kit like it was 100b.

I guess this last update buffed an old build of mine even further by increasing the healing on Elixir gun and fixing some bugs I was experiencing.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/A-viable-build-Not-another-rant-post/first#post1378648

Cooldown on EG was 20 (TWENTY) seconds and still is.
It has NEVER been 10 seconds, ever.

The shared cooldown between Tool Kit and EG procs if used in one order, but not if used in the other order.
Tool Kit > EG no problems
EG > Tool Kit no proc for tool kit

Flamethrower acts like EG, in the sense that the proc takes priority over the following kits.

Your post is odd because you seem to be saying how the change did little to nothing, but at the same time your information seems incorrect.

You say you keep seeing nonsense about the kit refinement changes… well, so do I.
There are other and more correct posts about the changes made. And there is a lot more going on than what you describe as being the ‘only’ change.

Test some things, read some posts more carefully.

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

Kimbald.2697:

My man problem is this: whenever I try to come up with a true VERSATILE build… I quickly realise that those builds are the worst engineer builds around.
I should know, I always build for versatility!

While the best engineer builds are single-purpose builds. All the popular builds, those with names and threads discussing them, all fill a single role. They hardly ever are more versatile than any other given profession build.

What exactly did we pay a damage tax for again?

I think every class pays a versatility tax to one degree or another. Every class has a plethora of single purpose builds. I’ve never really seen a versatile build in any class that didn’t give something up for it.

Well, I’m just referring to what the dev’s themselves were saying about the engineer.
They started the whole thing about the engineer paying a price for his great versatility, not us.

In the same notes they claimed elementalists to be the kings of versatility… with no mention of a tax.

By the way: it’s not about having lower damage in a versatile build compared to a damage build. of course that is the case, for all professions…
It’s about the engineer supposedly being so versatile they needed to nerf the damage!

You missed the point there. You simply argue that all professions give up something for more versatility, and that is normal.
But the problems arise when you compare the versatile engineer builds to other professions.
Suddenly there doesn’t seem to be any engineer build that is really versatile, that can stand up to other profession builds, or not even to the single purpose engineer builds!

The point was that engineers don’t have any more versatility than others. There are no truly versatile engineer builds that are competetive!

Simply because all our good builds are single-purpose builds. Or at least no more versatile than the competetive builds other professions have!

My man problem is this: whenever I try to come up with a true VERSATILE build… I quickly realise that those builds are the worst engineer builds around.
I should know, I always build for versatility!

While the best engineer builds are single-purpose builds. All the popular builds, those with names and threads discussing them, all fill a single role. They hardly ever are more versatile than any other given profession build.

What exactly did we pay a damage tax for again?

I had a feeling the procs were a mess even beyond a simple internal cooldown.
As I said over and over again: the trait feels so dam unreliable now.

Seems you guys hit the nail on the head as to why this feels so much worse now.

If the cooldowns work even seperate from each other, there is no end to keep track of what has happened, what should have happened, what could happen, or what should happen on your next kit swap…

For now some kits are efected and some not. Not even the patch notes are accurate in that regard.
So we can’t even figure out how it should work, if the patch notes would be correct.
At best we can figure out workarounds for the current effects.

But my main question is: why?
Seriously: WHY?
So many better ways to adress the area’s where this trait could be too strong…

Were multi-kit engineers really so OP you had to nerf a core trait for them Devs?
Because that is what you’ve done: you have hurt the most VERSATILE of engineer builds!
And guess what: those were the weakest of all engineer builds already…

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

It wouldnt surprise me if they didn’t change it. Doesn’t Flamethrower and Elixir Gun have condition removals on their kit refinement? Maybe they just want to slow down that part of the trait.

if this was the case, than why not simply remove cond removal on EG proc, so that EG kit doesn’t have 2 from double Super Elixir, and FT still has 1…?

Even for 100nades we can find many simple solutions if they wanted to adress that.

They took the worse solution, and than even made it less reliable than that!

Fun is a factor, at least for me and apparantly for many others too.

But keep in mind that when it comes to the dev’s balancing damage across kits, that ‘fun’ can indeed NOT be a determining factor to give one kit less effective damage than another.

I say ‘effective’ damage, because numbers are only part of it.
Missing or flying time, arming time, cone versus aoe spread, detonating versus piercing etc… all are factors that decide how easy something is to land the damage.

Both grenades and FT have issues lowering their damage.
It’s not easy comparing the two, because they never seem to fit the same role in a fight anyhow…

The order in wich you use kits also plays a role.
But this is probably because it’s mainly EG and FT proccing before you use another kit, and that other kit not proccing the cooldown if used BEFORE EG or FT.

I’ll go test this ‘order’ a bit myself. Just to see if there isn’t anything else odd going on.

Bottom line for me: the trait has become pretty unreliable now as soon as you use more than 1 kit and don’t always swap in the same order or in the same time-span.

Multi-kit users tend to swap kits all the time, we hardly wait 10 seconds at all before swapping.
For this playstyle the new Kit Refinement is now pretty annoying to keep track of.

I use FT and EG together since the very traits boosting them boost BOTH.
I spend 2 times 20 trait points on that…
But suddenly the devs figured we shouldn’t use them both or something?

So now in a fight, I get one or the other to proc. Luckily they both remove a condition still, so either way I get that (once, not twice) but when I need a healing light field I no longer am sure I didn’t waste it on an aoe burn before…

And also: if I want a condition removed I need to keep track of which I should swap to: is it time for the EG or the FT proc?
other ways to remove conditions… just saying kit refinement is no longer reliable in multi-kit builds.

Resouled.5614:

Bomb kit 5+EG 4+Rifle 5 does quite some damage in a power build.

sounds as one hell of a combo indeed.
Not ‘100nades’ kinda burst, but more like ‘normal playstyle burst’.

MiLkZz.4789:

Worst downed state? A warrior says hi.

The ‘3’ is awesome, not every class needs to be able to interrupt or stop 5+ players of downing them the first time.

thing is: by the time you can use it, you’re already downed.
Unless they ignore you for some reason. But you can’t design a mechanic on the basis of ‘it works if the enemy ignores you first’.

After you used #2 they have time to try a few times before you even can use #3… that simply is too long.
And don’t forget that #2 is a nice interrupt, but it also positions the enemy right at your body so they can immediately try again.

Downed #3 would be great if it was usable a bit sooner.
Not immediately, just ‘sooner’.

Kalan.9705:

FT was great fun to mess around with. Unfortunately the person making the weak changes to FT clearly didn’t understand what the food changes mean, certainly in a WvW setting.

The food nerf seemed needed, but I agree it hits the FT really hard.

With the changes they should have given FT something as a small heal from a trait or something. To make up a bt for the food nerf.

They simply figured the food was too strong and didn’t give Flamethrower a second thought. In WvW the FT was mostly good because of the food… the 10% damage on burn or the prolonged burning on pushback don’t make up for that loss in survivability.

It seems needed to make up for it somehow, improving FT#5 would be a good place to look.

But let’s be honest: the combo of a fast hitting and critting Flamethrower with omnomberry was too strong in healing. Not even grandmaster traited bombs healed for that ammount…

Lantz.7240:

Only having the heal for pvp I think would make sense.

I know it’s a weird idea, but i would actually consider this:

- only a heal as you say
- but you are immune to damage

so either you have enough time to heal because your team interrupts them etc… or they have the window to stomp you.

We would have to adress those that can stomp uniterrupted too often of course.
Stomping uninterrupted once a minute with an elixir seems ok, stomping from stealth each time would make you too strong…

Changes like this won’t happen, so to be realistic: just improve engineer downed #2 and #3.

If they would design the mortar as an improved Charrzooka, I would be extremely happy.
Give it the visuals of a shoulder carried launcher, and keep the heals, the knockback etc… just make it mobile and undestroyable (you still take damage as normal). But keep the stability.

I wouldn’t mind the relative ‘short’ range than, since it’s mobile. It has long range, but it’s silly that grenades outrange it…

Supply crate is usefull, especially since it’s ‘versatile’: it has offense, crowd control and defense at the same time. Just let supply crate proc stability too and it would be perfect.

But I think I would take a portable mortar over the crate even, it simply sounds too much fun!

As for a new portal elite: yes I think engineers could do with that.

Sporadicus.1028:

Piercing shots pistols with FT make for a good CQC combination as both now deal damage multiple enemies anywhere in the range of either weapon’s #1 shot.

I like the use of that trait, Kimbald!

I could simply use healing bombs for more support, or grenades at close range for more mayhem… but both of those bore me like hell.
Who designed a kit where skills 1 to 5 just have the exact same mechanic???
The effects change, but you do the same thing over and over and over…

So I prefer the weaker flamethrower and have more fun.

Because let’s face it: when judging the flamethrower, the number one argument for most of us is not damage but FUN.
It’s a flamethrower thing, what can I say…

Missed last night’s raid, but i had a ball in LA with some of KA instead at the late hours…

It all started with a rare mob in the cellar of the pub!

Surrender Dorothy!

Sporadicus.1028:

I’ve been trying out EG with Rifle, and I like how I can bounce in and out of range with the two.

never done that, sounds like fun

I’m hooked on pistols though, and very often even hooked on my shield…
It’s just that as soon as I build for some cond damage, I can’t really neglect pistol #4 for damage. No matter how I love my shield.

CriSPeH.8512:

FT is the Kit that needs the Stunbreaker.

FT skill #5 should have Stunbreaker added.
imo 3 birds with 1 stone.
A kit gets a Stunbreaker.
The lame placeholder FT skill is now very useful.
The FT’s utility now better makes up for its lesser damage.

they missed a chance with the change to Elixir Gun#4. It’s nice that it is a blast finisher now. But a stunbreaker would have been more fitting. Like a kit’s version of rocket boots.
The change is great! Just saying they missed a chance on giving kits a stunbreaker.

FT#5 is a very good candidate too indeed.

AryasRevenge.3175:

Hum guys, Elixir S break stuns and immobilized, it has a perma slot on my hot bar.

we know about elixir S, which you could have gathered from reading the posts

For me, as an Asura, elixir S bugs out so bad on the camera that I stopped using it. It’s not like I can actually get something done when it procs because of this bug anyhow. By the time my eyes and mouse adjuted, the effect is over…

The posts are mostly about what other options we have, besides the most common stunbreakers, like elixir S. And if we can afford not to use them, and why kits have no stunbreaker, etc… read a bit, it’ll become clear.

In WvW raid fights I sometimes swap from FT to pistlos in a constant manner.

So I use up the main FT cooldowns, the #2 blast twice, the #5 blind if possible.
Than I swap to pistols and use those cooldowns, often when traited for piercing.

Than back to the FT. Note that I haven’t stayed in either for much longer than 10 seconds. So I get the aoe fire blast from Kit refinement which burns but also removes a condition on me.
I also get the aoe chill proc from my hydromancer Sigil.

I try to keep this fast rotation up, and when needed healing or better defenses, I swap to Elixir Gun for #5 and maybe an escape #4. Or simply block with Tool Kit.
Or Med kit if really hurting, which freeze again with my runes of grenth.

But mostly I try go back and forth with FT and pistols unless I take too much damage.
This is a bit different from what I did before, but the recent nerf to Kit refinement forced me to not mix in too many kits the same seconds.

This is fun and effective, but as true Flamethrower users will have noticed: many weak points in my damage:
- no juggernaut if piercing shots with coated bullets
- no might duration runes
- no might proccing sigil

Not saying my way is the best, for the above reasons alone.
But I can guarantee you it is fun for me
Flamethrower – piercing bullets swapping in group fights is numbers… and more numbers… and chaos… and crowd control…

This is where the nerf to kit refinement hurts a lot: when stunned…

As a 4 kit engineer myself, kit refinement was my ‘poor man’s stunbreaker’. Not in the sense that it broke stun, but swapping from kit to kit gave me healing, condition removal, cripple, bleeding, burning…

Flamethrower still gives me the blind usable when stunned of course.

I use runes of grenth as well, so going med kit a second gives me a chill aoe which also helps a lot to mitigate the damage.

Longer stuns are an issue. Short stuns i can eat.
Still now, but less effective with the Kit refinement nerf. Mostly because things got less reliable now, and whatever I pick first: I will lose some of the other effects.