Guild Wars 2

I find the WvW cost a bit too high on the laurels, simply because the pve crowd got a 6 month head start.
That should be calculated too, when comparing the ‘time cost’.

Other than that, I still think the whole ascended gear idea is a bad joke, but that’s just my view on gearing up in this game.

Zuko.7132:

Its true that if you go one on one with a good thief your probably going to lose, but if a thief is involved in a zerg he/she is going to go down fast. Thieves excel in small battles but there low vitality and toughness makes them terrible for zergs. Each class should play to its strengths if your not a thief, mesmer, or possibly a ranger don’t expect to be as good at small battles. Your strength is in zergs. If you want to do small battles make a thief for goodness sake cause that is what they are good at.

actually, the real solution would be:

make them more usefull in a group, and a bit less strong 1v1.
Others need the opposite: bit less crucial for raid groups, maybe a bit more solo capacity.

Neither should be reserved for certain professions.
Certain builds? Of course. But not only specific professions.
I don’t accept the reasoning ‘roll this or that if you want to enjoy that part of the game’.
Tell me to build different, sure, but not to reroll.

Every profession can do anything, is more or less a selling point of this game.

I see 3 reasons, working together:

1. zergs can’t be stopped unless by another zerg. Simple truth, but it’s what seperates them from small groups.
By itself not an issue, it becomes one if combined with reason #2.

2. zergs can take everything that needs to be taken fast and move on.
Everything in WvW can be dealt with fast, again unless another zerg counters it.

We all see each day how zergs retreat when the capping goes too slow, when the defense is too strong. Not every time of course, but very often.
The zerg goes on to take something else, hopefully fast.

3. For each individual player a zerg offers more fighting, more kills and loads more rewards than any small time action can provide, ever.
Organised guilds are an exception IF they can supply the numbers needed, else for them too the zerg is the best result for each member.

Combine these 3 and you get an nearly unstoppable wrecking ball that doesn’t have to waste time if it choses not to, can get victories in another spot if it fails somewhere, and that gives the absolute maximum ammount of rewards it can for the players joining it.

suggestions:

1. Scale defending npc’s on the ammount of players attacking, making it a very long effort once over a certain cap that is calculated by the total ammount of players on the map (less for T9 than for T1 obviously).

2. reduce the silly speed at wich a low defended objective is taken, maybe make all caps slower or something.
Camp supervisors should not go from ‘immune buff’ to ‘dead in seconds’. They should gradually lose that buff, opening up opportunities for more small camp action that reacts fast.
And as suggested above: they should scale immensely on the number of players, discouraging zergs to rush them.

3. better rewards for small action such as defending, supplies, scouting, etc…
Changes are coming, but still so little.

Vuh.1328:

If i only could dye my hobo sack..

if not the option to hide them, than at least this yes.

You know what, going crazy here: how about BOTH?

People can say what they want about higher tiers and our low tier 8… but we fight to the death over a simple camp that other tiers simply flip over and zerg back again later.

We slug it out, on an epic scale.
Whatever we have on the map WILL come to fight that one camp.

And no: thou shall not pass that bridge either

In my view, this is how it went wrong a bit. It’s a theory, but I think there is a base of truth in it:

The reasoning for thieves is: because they have only a small damage window, they need to do burst.
That’s how it works in most MMO’s: stealth classes are weak to damage and need to hit fast before they get killed.

But that’s not how it works out in this game, even though they start from the same reasoning.

Because of the high capacity for restealth and avoidance, thieves actually have an incredibly big window for damage. In fact: they have several windows after each other.
The opponents are the ones with the very small window to do damage, not the thief since he can restealth.

Restealth is the reason why thieves should do slow steady damage.
And not high burst…

The thief profession was designed as a one-hit wonder like other stealth classes, but they added restealth to it which changes everything.

small remarks:

1. Throw wrench indeed heals the turret, on both passes. But you throw it at the enemy, not in the direction of a safely placed turret. In the end it does nothing to heal your turret if you placed it somewhere strategically.
And if that heal is the only one you can give your turret… it won’t keep it alive anyhow.

2. The devs need to chose: either turrets are disposable and have low cooldowns (your suggestions) or turrets are durable and stay out for longer periods during the fight (their version on State of the Game).

For your version smaller fixes would suffice, but sadly they mentioned leaving them out yet they didn’t go all the way on the consequences that choice brings.

I don’t believe in a halfbaked mix. Either durable, a LOT more durable, or make them more disposable with a much shorter cooldown.

Not just thumper turret. If rocket turret does not get a better AI, or get better survivability, that 1200 range is always a waste.
And that range is part of the reason it has such a long cooldown.

3. Rifle turret could do with a condition that fits it better than bleed, like vulnerability for example.
If it stacks vulnerability at a decent rate, it would help power builds, help the team, and do more damage itself.

Because let’s face it: who takes the rifle turret?
Condition builds don’t pick rifle turet as first choice. It’s the prefered turret for Static Discharge builds, if they take a turret of course.
Vulnerability would help them more.

And yes: piercing would be so great.
Just like having a real aoe on the rocket turret would be. I agree with both and have made a post about Rocket aoe myself on another occasion.

Thanks for the replies, it’s a very interesting thread.

On the survivability I don’t think the suggestions will help all that much.
It’s good they would get some vitality added, but it’s not going to save them I’m afraid.

First of all, and simplest: toughness. Scaling or baseline, but they need a lot of it.

A better option would be to make turrets immune to any attack that is not targeting them directly.
They are supposed to be a hinderance to the enemy. In order to do that they need to stay alive untill directly destroyed.

Funny fact: in the State of the Game the devs actually discussed turrets as if they worked this way.
They don’t… Turrets die in any aoe in seconds. A few k more health won’t make them last longer in there.

This touches upon a weird way of how turrets work:
turrets die fast if we put them near us.
Deployable turrets is the best mechanic we have to keep them alive.
But turrets target wrong targets if we put them far, making deployable turrets counter-productive.
Most turrets also have very short range.
Turrets can be healed with Tool Kit, but tool kit is melee range so the turret needs to be right at you.

So instead of being forced to use deployable turrets t keep your turret alive, I would rather be able to use them up close and still know they can survive the damage.

If you go the route of condition damage for all turrets, you narrow their use down to certain builds.
Like the suggestion of adding a bleed to the standard riffle turret attack.

I would simply say: let turrets scale on power too!
That way everybody can make the best of them in any build they choose.

My rocket turret should scale on power if I use it in a full power build. So should a rifle turret.

I realise this goes against standard pet scaling in this game. But turrets have several flaws that other pets don’t have, movement being the most visual one.
So giving turrets a different scaling system than other pets isn’t all that overpowered.

For me the emphasis would be on these:

- turrets AI is simply awkward. Targeting closest enemy is silly on a 1200 range Rocket Turret.
I want the turret to target MY target in the first place.

Order of attack:
1. my target
2. if I have no target: player attacking me
3. if no target and no player attacking: npc attacking me
4. if none of the above: wait till one applies.

- another thing is hat I think Accelerant Packed Turrets should be standard behaviour for every turret being detonated or destroyed. The knockback should always be there.

If that trait is given baseline, we can free up some trait points and choices in a full turret build.
It would also make turrets more usefull for other builds.

They can remove the 1200 damage if they want, it’s the knockback that makes the trait good.

I tried reading it all, but I didn’t see the baseline changes I would make like the targeting issue.
You mention it but I didn’t see a suggestion on changing it.

Super Riceman.8702:

Kimbald.2697:

Next expansion, seriously.
To make the mortar good in this version, you need to change too many things. And it’s highly unlikely they would do that at this point in the game.

Not sure about the exact month of the expansion, but that one

I disagree that they have to change a lot to it, the skills would work if they just made it into a kit that way you can use it while on the move and make the projectiles faster. The main problem I have is that everything seems to be out of range unless you set it up next to your target and if it were a kit that wouldn’t be.

It would synergize with the existing kit traits and not everyone would have to go grenades.

The other option is to make it have very long range and that seems boring

Basic changes I see are these:

it needs defenses so the heal and knockback should be minimum range.

it also should be more resilient to damage, since it gets destroyed far too easy.
Making it a kit would solve that of course.

It also needs some attacking speed. That global cooldown is way overdoing it.
Increasing the attack speed, would increase the damage even if the numbers get lowered a bit as the speed gets increased.

these are the minimal, and they are already a lot.
Turning it into a kit is actually a much bigger change even.

And for the record: your analysis of the build is pretty good I think.
But seriously: where the heck did that sneer of ‘disgusting community’ come from? The posters really weren’t hostile at all.
It sort of baffled me seeing that remark.

you take single phrases out of whole posts and you claim they were not being helpfull?
It’s not because they didn’t think his build was working, that they were insulting him or not trying to help him.

Some of these posts included postive and polite things you know.

Your accusation of people being disgusting was totally out of order there.
The 4 posts above you were not applauding the build no, but they were being honest and helpfull. And you call them disgusting.

That’s when I appear yes, when people are insulting others for no good reason yes.
The posts above yours did not deserve the way you insult them.

Next expansion, seriously.
To make the mortar good in this version, you need to change too many things. And it’s highly unlikely they would do that at this point in the game.

Not sure about the exact month of the expansion, but that one

Zosk.5609:

What will it take for the ‘defenders’ to get it?

Nobody is asking you to sit in towers and keeps. It is not the intention that you’ll spend an hour just sitting there “refreshing the siege” and waiting.

Join a group, a squad, and/or a zerg and actively respond to threats…this is what the designers intend and the players really want. You can respond by entering and setting up a counter-siege, pushing out the “doors”, or just deal with it directly and hit them from behind, or you can take something else to make a trade if you think it’s best…. the thing is, nobody is asking you to do boring stuff (the devs or your fellow players) so why do you think we should make that boring stuff more interesting?

if an enemy group, or zerg, is at a tower hitting the door, you are usually too late unless someone called incoming as they arrive.

Actively responding to a tower being under attack is a myth. If no one was there in the first place, you are almost always too late.

And before you can build siege when you get in, IF you get in… you need a few people there and you need supplies.
Most towers are upgrading and have next to no supplies you can use, so you need several people bringing them in.

With rams or golems at your door, actively defending means you’re too late in most cases.

If someone is there who calls incoming AND can man an ac till the ‘actively defending’ group arrives… than you have a chance of slowing them.
In other cases it’s pure luck of the draw that you happen to be near.

Bottom line: actively defending only works if there are those few invisable ones passively defending already. Else you never know in time.

Nymph of Meliai.6739:

Kimbald.2697:

The problem with most defensive WvW mechanics is that it’s always the same people doing them.

It’s easy running with the zerg for many kills and badges, and asking if anyone has eyes on this or that tower.
Just like it’s easy to expect OTHERS to build siege there, make sure supplies get through, or even upgrading it.
Latest boring addition to that list: expecting others to tick siege so they don’t despawn by the time you arrive with the zerg…

The same minority of players bother with the boring and costly stuff, while the same majority of players expect others to do it while they go for the fun fighting all over the map.

To me that is the main flaw of the system.
And the remedy indeed should be to give some fun and rewards to those doing the boring work.
What and how can be debated upon. But as it stands: the players running with the zerg all over, are still rewarded a lot more than the ones defending.
The zerg only comes defending when there is an actual fight to be had after all…

I played in T3 with a bit of T2, and I play in T8 now.
it was the same everywhere: day after day I saw the same people running supplies, scouting, defending, ticking siege… and I saw the same people running with the commanders from fight to fight never bothering with defense untill an enemy zerg arrived.

It’s normal you have a minority of defenders and a majority following the commanders. But that doesn’t mean it should always be the ‘others’ who are stuck with the boring stuff.

Better rewards, and more things happening on defensive tasks are indeed a good idea.

I have nothing against better rewards for defenders… people running supply, fixing walls, building siege, ordering upgrades etc. I just don’t think there should be any pve event content added.

I didn’t go into the specific changes because I’m not totally sold on the OP’s suggestions myself.

We already have grubs, spirits and harpies that I would like to have some WvW function aside loot…
Not sure if I want more pve unless it really REALLY serves a WvW purpose.

And the argument that it coud distract from the actual watching for incoming is also true.

More enemy patrols could be an idea, or simply better rewards for those bothering to do the boring stuff.

What if a defender scouting, repairing, ticking siege, etc could get a full dailies worth of activities done just by that?
You would have more people actually doing those activitis, and still reward the ones who bother with it anyhow.
We’re halfway there with those things, but there is still a lot room for improvement.

when an unpopular measure is taken without any information, than it becomes suspicious. This was bound to fall ill with most in terms of honesty.

Most changes are either announced, or at least reflected in some patch notes or update post at the news section.

This one wasn’t. Heck, it wasn’t even mentioned untill players sort of pointed at it.

That’s asking for drama and accusations.

Even if it was coincidence, than it would have been better to mention it just to avoid the suspicion.

Change the game the way you see fit. People will play or not.
But you might want to do it less sneaky, or at least ‘less prone to misinterpretation because of coincidence’

The problem with most defensive WvW mechanics is that it’s always the same people doing them.

It’s easy running with the zerg for many kills and badges, and asking if anyone has eyes on this or that tower.
Just like it’s easy to expect OTHERS to build siege there, make sure supplies get through, or even upgrading it.
Latest boring addition to that list: expecting others to tick siege so they don’t despawn by the time you arrive with the zerg…

The same minority of players bother with the boring and costly stuff, while the same majority of players expect others to do it while they go for the fun fighting all over the map.

To me that is the main flaw of the system.
And the remedy indeed should be to give some fun and rewards to those doing the boring work.
What and how can be debated upon. But as it stands: the players running with the zerg all over, are still rewarded a lot more than the ones defending.
The zerg only comes defending when there is an actual fight to be had after all…

I played in T3 with a bit of T2, and I play in T8 now.
it was the same everywhere: day after day I saw the same people running supplies, scouting, defending, ticking siege… and I saw the same people running with the commanders from fight to fight never bothering with defense untill an enemy zerg arrived.

It’s normal you have a minority of defenders and a majority following the commanders. But that doesn’t mean it should always be the ‘others’ who are stuck with the boring stuff.

Better rewards, and more things happening on defensive tasks are indeed a good idea.

void.6705:

Jeffrey Vaughn.1793:

There were an excessive number of bots at that location on several servers, so the spawns during the event (only) had their loot reduced. No changes were made to any creature outside the event, including wraiths in other locations. We tried to find the simplest, safest change possible. I hope that answers the question, but I really don’t want to get into a debate about “What is farming?” or “Does farming hurt the economy?” or “Economy? It’s a game, who cares?”

Really is that the attitude from you guys WHO CARES? we care the people that play the game care… You state that you don’t want a grind yet certain items that are needed in mass require a grind…. Great kittening response from a “Game Admin”

He said he didn’t want to go into discussing remarks such as ‘Economy? It’s a game, who cares.’
That does NOT mean he is saying ‘who cares’. it means he is not going to react to others saying that.
Punctuation matters.
Try reading the quoted bit again, now looking at the little signs that are there to mark quotes.

I’m not a big defender of this game when it comes to these changes… but seriously: try to read what he said.
He didn’t say ‘Who cares’.

Games don’t start in a vacuum.
A new game is never compared to the state of other games when they launched.
It is compared to the state those other games are in, when the new game launches.

So the basic premasis of this topic, namely that the game is new, is not accounting for the fact it was designed with the best of other games in mind, not their infant state worst aspects.

Topics like this are a reaction to overly negative posts, but at the same time they are overly positive or ‘excusing’ because they compare GW2 to the launch of other games, not their state when this game launched.

Rest assured: the dev’s took the best state of other games into account when they tried to develop this one, I’m confident they didn’t have meetings where they said ’That’s ok, X or Y game didn’t have that at launch even though they have it now.’

New products compete with the best of the current products out there, not with how bad those other products were a long time ago.
Simple as that.

redslion.9675:

I think engies should have some sort of steam-powered exoskeleton on their right arm.

After all, they are attacking people with wrenches and crowbars, dealing as much damage as a swordsman. AND they are using a wrench. That means they are fighting with sheer brute force.XD

just adding this here: a simple Whispers set can go a long way towards a robot arm

well, it’s still a shameless bump, because whispers or no whispers, the issue at hand is about backpacks…

MonMalthias.4763:

• Low Health Response System should instead apply Protection for 3-5 seconds if the Engineer is struck below 25% health. This would prolong our death against Power damage. Internal cooldown could be anywhere from 45-60 seconds.
• Low Health Response System instead cleanses 1-2 conditions at 25% health. I like this change better because Inventions is the Turret trait line, and as we all know, Turret builds have pretty poor condition mitigation. With Turrets as they are, every little bit helps. Internal cooldown could be anywhere from 45-60 seconds.

Either of these could work very well.
The condition removal is probably best given it’s already the high toughness trait line.
But I could live with a protection proc, that would be pretty awesome actually.

My own contribution is more about another usefullness than: how certain traits work counterproductive at times.

Kit refinement is a prime example: while it sounds like a multi-kit trait, it actually works worse if you use more than a single trait. Simply because it becomes unreliable with the shared cooldown.

Another one is from the turret discussions: deployable turrets is great for positioning your turrets. Both to put them strategically as to put them out of harms way.
Yet most turrets have short range, so they have to be where you fight.
And turrets target the nearest attackable enemy, so putting them far means you have more chance of the turret shooting at a useless target.
This doesn’t make the trait itself bad, but it makes it counterproductive in any practical setting.

The shield trait (reinforced shield) is great since it helps on the biggest weakness of the shield: the long cooldowns.
But I find it odd that I lose the 60 extra toughness when I swap to a kit. I would expect the trait to make up for the shield armor I already lose by swapping.
The trait is great, it really is. But this one little effect seems a bit odd to me.

The 25% speed in combat is another one.
usually if you need speed boost, it means you’re roaming or running around.
Or kiting of course.
Except for the kiting, it means you want the speed out of combat too.
Most roamers are forced to get swiftness from either elixirs and boon duration, med kit or simply speedy kits.
Again it’s not a bad trait, but if you need speed you usually need it out of combat too.
Few engineers need speed boost for kiting, but don’t need it for moving about.

use these examples as they fit in your general picture or not. it’s just another way of looking at certain traits.

It wans’t a remark about the topic, or your posts.
I agree there are indeed traits that most agree on are useless.

But at the same time we have posts here discussing about how usefull a trait really is, like the protection traits. but those traits are not considered useless, at worst people find them weaker than others.
those aren’t ‘useless’ but are still good to have discussions and comparisons about.

I like the idea of the topic, and i like how you go over the traits.
All I tried to do was point at a bit of mixed discussions going on. While I actually find most posts here pretty interesting, even if they’re not all discussing ‘useless’ traits.

this means that you use a shield
And maybe that you traited that shield and those 60 toughness are lost as well. But as you say ‘60 armor’ it is the shield alone and you didn’t trait it (or it would be 60 armor and 60 toughness lost too).

Shield has defense beyond the stats on the shield. It’s listed with the weapon damage.
That’s the part you lose.
The added stats that are on your shield, you keep when swapping to a kit.

I like gadgets. Let me start there.
This said: I do not like the cooldowns on most gadgets, and I often find them too weak for the usage of a skill slot.

The first big issue of gadgets is that they lack traits to back them up.
This leaves you with plenty traits to use for other things, but it also leaves you with gadgets that can’t be improved a lot.

I’m curious to your damage with this build.
Rocket boots toolbelt is great in melee range. Analyse is helpfull too, although I find it a very long cooldown for only those stacks of vulnerability. Still: when you can use it, it helps.

Rocket boots is an odd one. I like it, but it also is very unreliable.
To be honest: I find it most usefull with a smoke field.
In WvW it’s nice to have something that breaks cc AND moves you to another spot. For those moments you get cought in a big mess.
How does it work out in tpvp? Don’t you feel the self cc a lot there?

If focusing on gadgets, than why not mines?
I find them to be the best designed gadget of them all. Low cooldown, decent damage potential, boon stripping, and of course: knockback you can position, and more: that you can time!
I would take it over personal battering ram any day. In your build, I can not understand why you took the ram over the mine.
Isn’t the mine great in tpvp against thieves and for point clearing?

I have no comment about your build working or not.
You say it works for you… well, than it works for you
I would make some different choices myself, and mostly: I’m not sure I would have enough damage in that build for the small fights in tpvp.
I realise control is more important, but than I would take the mine at least.

Specterryu Quipter.8412:

Another build that will be torn to shreds by this disgusting community.
To the community: Offer him/her suggestions to improve their build, instead of saying it won’t work.
To the OP: Welcome to the Engineer forums.

I see 4 posts above yours, and each of them is giving advice without being insulting.
Yours is actually the first post I see that is NOT giving any suggestions at all to improve.
Mine is the second, but I’ll get to that in a moment.

Who are you calling disgusting? The 4 helpfull posters above you?

When there is a healthy discussion between players who find a trait useful, and those who don’t, I think that already says the trait isn’t ‘useless’.
I would reserve the term useless for those traits discussed here already, that we all agree on are extremely weak.

The others might need some work here or there, but aren’t exactly useless.

I add this here because I like the many opinions on these traits, but the discussion is going all directions a bit.
Which doesn’t mean any of those directions isn’t really interesting, but we’re often no longer discussing ‘useless’ but more ‘not strong enough’ or ‘not how I would do it’.

a stun when attacked (from stealth as well).
A ranged daze that hits on the way back too. And it hits multiple targets.

a reflect.

a pushback.

these are the obvious ones.

A blast finisher is great too.

Now you can start combining, as the above posts show. The healing combo’s are already mentioned, as well as a few others.
I think most shield users can add a few combo’s to that list.

- smoke bomb > push them back with shield #4 > blast finish shield #4 for stealth > EG#4 or Rocket boots for added blast finisher and jump back with prolonged stealth after you pushed them back.

- run into zerg > throw shield #5 for dazes all over > grenade barrage, freeze grenades… or any other big aoe hit they often dodge as you come in.

- stomp and shield #5 block. It’s a poor man’s elixir S.

- for zerg fighting a shield with piercing pistol shots from main hand pistol is fun to see. Numbers everywhere.
It’s handy in lagg actually.
It’s less effective in smaller fights though, things won’t die from pistol #1 of course.

The cooldown is an issue for me indeed.
Traited the cooldown is pretty good. It should be like that baseline.
I tend to trait it, and since I picked up Automatic medical response by traiting the shield, I take the healing turret for a nice reset at 25% to do the whole healing-blasting again.
people above have shown how nice the shield works with a healing turret.

I basically said pistol shield needed a kit to complement it, no matter how you trait it.
That’s not the same as saying it can not be used, let alone the ‘under any circumstances bull’ you add to twisting my words.
How many times do I have to repeat it: I use the shield all the bloody time.
So your whole discours isn’t about my posts, sorry. It’s about your biased interpretation of my posts.

Of course you can enter pve, wvw and what not with pistol-shield. I do it every single day I play.
I just can’t do it without having at least one kit traited too.

Is that a big deal? Nope, there are more pressing matters.
But it is the only weapon set where you need to complemetn it no matter how you trait yes.

If this is not the case, as you say: link me a pistol shield build that is effective and doesn’t use a single kit.
Turrets? Gadgets? They would be the solution, if they didn’t have their own issues.
So not a theorycrafted build please, a real one.

if you can link such a build that really works, than my whole argument is indeed an opinion.
If you can not make a build that really works, than it is actually an observation.
The difference is not theoretical at all, it is practical. And it can change of course: I would gladly stand corrected if proven wrong.

And if people can use pistol-shield without any kit at all, I applaud that of course.
I’m not here to put opinions down. Despite the hostile reactions I keep recieving, I’m just here to hold a open discussion about the shield.
But ex-kitten-cuse me if that discussion also includes things you don’t like to hear.
I don’t mind hearing arguments that I don’t agree with, ever. I just reacted to that one insulting post that basically didn’t have an argument in it all.

Why are you lot so hostile if I claim that pistol-shield always needs a kit to back it up, where any other weapon set can be traited and geared to work on it’s own?
What is so dam wrong with that?
And mostly: why do so many of you twist this into ’you’re saying the shield is crap’?
It’s a forum post discussing the shield, so that’s what I’m doing.

Of course the shield is control-utility, and of course that makes it valuable.

Hurtappl.6405:

Dolyaks are pretty good roamers! I would roll one of those

and the odd part is: they are slow, easy to kill and do sod all damage.
All the things people look for in a roamer!

yup, they really wanted you…
Fun to watch, and great surviving.

I’ll make a small resume to avoid people arguing for the sake of arguing, me included.

Yes, I like the shield. A lot.
Yes, I use it in every build, except specific test builds I do sometimes.
Yes, I use it for the utility-control.

So far you’re following?

Despite actually using the shield for the same reasons as the others here, I can still see that pistol-shield is a weapon set that needs another weapon set to do even the minimal damage needed for pvp, wvw or dungeons.
That’s an observance, nothing more nothing less.

When comparing this to other engineer weapon sets, I conclude that pistol-shield is actually the only weapon set of engineers that can’t be made to work on it’s own.

So the last question is: does it offer that much more utility than any other weapon set engineer has acces to? So much more it warrants not having enough damage, where the others can be traited to have that?
The answer is: better utility than some, but not better than all. Certainly not: so incredibly better than the other sets it justifies doing too little damage.

Last point: is this the fault of the shield?
Of course not.
The weakness lies in the overnerfing of pistol main hand. This happened very early in the game. Key seems to be the firing rate of the pistol #1.
Solve this, and you made pistol-shield a fully functional weapon set on it’s own. Without being too high dmage for such good defenses and control.

That’s it.
Can people now stop reacting as if I say shield is crap?

Seras.5702:

Wow…it’s like he’s not even paying attention. Apparently, every weapon must be able to kill stuff, regardless of whether or not it’s designed to or not. “yes, it’s a control weapon and it’s great at what it’s designed for. but it can’t kill stuff so it sucks.” but it’s not supposed to be used to kill. “i agree. but what’s different about it is that you can’t kill with it” i mean…..<sigh>

where the heck did I ever say it sucks???

Your whole reply twists my words.
I pointed at a design issue where shield-pistol is the only engineer weapon set that can’t work alone even if you trait it fully. (elixir gun being a bordercase indeed)

Every reply I made shows I’m paying attention to what you say, so stop being so arrogant.
You’re missing my point as well you know so get of your high horse.

nakoda.4213:

I thought I explained that when I described turrets as structures like seize weapons, did I not?

pets are controllable companions.
utilities are skills on cool downs.

whether you like it or not, a turret is just an extra auto attack utility.
- a net every 10 seconds.
- a rocket every 4
- a thump every 3
- regen every 3
- flame every (what? I don’t know, I never use it, tbh) 3 or 4.

it’s like ctrl+clicking your utility slot to fire on auto. that’s it, that’s all

I am done here. you want this thread to be a qq turrets sick thread, and not a source of information about turrets that can lead to improvement.
you want pets.

go play a pet class.

I don’t want pets.
I do want turrets to be smart enough to be usefull outside of point defending.
Or I want them to be resilient enough to have the time to make up for their own AI mistakes.

I did suggestions to their improvement. None of them said ‘give them wheels’.

Jigain.8231:

Kimbald.2697:

Jigain.8231:

A fine question! Here’s a couple of examples from my personal journal.

• Reflected a warrior’s Kill Shot back at him.
• Dived straight into a zerg in WvW and pushed about half of them off a cliff.
• Dazing low-health opponents trying to heal with Throw Shield.
• Quickly stacking poison on enemies.

Those are just some of the fun ways I’ve killed people while wielding a pistol and shield.

Now, a counter-question, if you don’t mind. Why are you so focused on killing things when using a shield? It’s a soft + hard CC build with some condition damage added for funsies. Saying you can’t really kill anything is like, and forgive the analogy, making a D&D Cleric, stack up healing spells, then complain the game is unbalanced because you don’t do as much damage as a Sorceror. :P

every build, of every profession should, in the end… be able to kill things in this game.
And don’t say it’s for support, because a shield does not define a support build.

Did you even read what I wrote? I said a pistol and shield is a control weapon set. Not support. Control. And you can’t argue that it isn’t, as it features two hard CCs (knockback, stun) as well as two soft CCs (blind, daze). As you didn’t like the D&D example, I’ll strike a little closer to home – saying pistol and shield does not define a control playstyle is like saying the grenade kit cannot be used for hitting multiple targets.

yeqs I read it.
And I fully agree that it is an awesome control set up. that’s why I use it.
But control alone doesn’t kill your opponent (player or boss).
And pistol main hand doesn’t add enough damage to that superb control, so you need something besides that.

Rifle is control too, but it can kill it’s opponent. Double pistol is bit less control but still some, and can certainly kill your opponent in the right builds.

You can take any kit and build around so it can do sufficient damage on it’s own.
Which is not the same as saying it’s top damage, let alone ‘burst’. But at least the kit will do the damage needed. Tool kit needs more help than others, and I agree if you say Elixir gun is below that standard. It’s a bordercase at best.

I’ll put it this way:
everybody can link builds with p/p that need no other kit to kill someone.
There are rifle builds that need no kit to kill something worth killing.
Kits too can be traited to be your main damage source.

However, there are no pistol-shield builds that can kill something, unless they trait and slot a kit to do the damage.
So it falls short on the standard of being a sufficient weapon kit on it’s own.

nakoda.4213:

Kimbald.2697:

Point defending pvp is probaby the closest turrets get to an optimal setting.
It’s almost a clear arena with hardly any other diversion than your enemies themselves.

In any other part of the game, turret targeting is much more an issue than in point defending.

You described how it is not entirely optimal in their best setting, point defense. Now consider how it is an issue anywhere else in the game.
From pvp roaming, over WvW anything, to pve questing or dungeons…

and in what scenario has pvp and pve ever worked the same?

your flamethrower works in both, doesn’t it?
Pistols work in both.
etc etc

what are you saying? That turrets are fine because they are decent in a single role of a single form of half the game?

Point defending pvp is probaby the closest turrets get to an optimal setting.
It’s almost a clear arena with hardly any other diversion than your enemies themselves.

In any other part of the game, turret targeting is much more an issue than in point defending.

You described how it is not entirely optimal in their best setting, point defense. Now consider how it is an issue anywhere else in the game.
From pvp roaming, over WvW anything, to pve questing or dungeons…

I never said turrets should move. Not once, ever.

nakoda.4213:

you are aware that with deployable turrets you can place then out of harms way, right?
which forces your opponents to directly target them, right?
which means that they aren’t targetting you for that moment, right?
which means that you, as a skilled player, can turn that in to an advantage, right?

turrets are not pets, and just because you want them to be will not make them so.

turrets are stationary structured utilities. wrap your head around this, and you will become much less stressed and fretful over everything, and actually understand what Anet is trying to do with them.

the big catch 22 with your example is that a turret placed out of harm’s way with deployable turrets… will attack the nearest target, be that a pet, a door, an add.
Hardly ever that nearest target is your target.

The only way to make sure the turret is targeting your target, is by putting the turret right on top of your target and you.

The AI works directly opposite the benefit of deployable turrets.
Their squishyness forces you to not put them where your target hits, cleaves and aoe’s.

You can’t win.

Fix one of these factors: the squishyness and/or the AI and turrets are actually very good damage and great utility.
I love them. But when fighting anything else than a singled out target dummy, they fail in some way.

Coated bullets, while using a shield, aimed at a zerg or group of mobs… I realise that’s a crapload of numbers right there.
But in a small fight, you soon notice it’s not all that effective as the spamming of numbers on your screen suggests

Jigain.8231:

Kimbald.2697:

could the 3 people above claiming it’s ok that pistol #1 does little damage, explain me one thing:

how do you kill anything when using shield?

A fine question! Here’s a couple of examples from my personal journal.

• Reflected a warrior’s Kill Shot back at him.
• Dived straight into a zerg in WvW and pushed about half of them off a cliff.
• Dazing low-health opponents trying to heal with Throw Shield.
• Quickly stacking poison on enemies.

Those are just some of the fun ways I’ve killed people while wielding a pistol and shield.

Now, a counter-question, if you don’t mind. Why are you so focused on killing things when using a shield? It’s a soft + hard CC build with some condition damage added for funsies. Saying you can’t really kill anything is like, and forgive the analogy, making a D&D Cleric, stack up healing spells, then complain the game is unbalanced because you don’t do as much damage as a Sorceror. :P

every build, of every profession should, in the end… be able to kill things in this game.
And don’t say it’s for support, because a shield does not define a support build. Elixir gun, healing bombs, healing turret to some extend, define a support build.
And in this game, without a trinity, even a support build has to stand it’s own.
So D&D roles have no relevance here at all, sorry. Your cleric isn’t supposed to kill anything, a GW2 build is. Full support builds maybe less, but a shield does not grant the ‘support’ in a support build, not more than a Big Old bomb or an exploding turret.

And I did NOT say I wanted as much damage as high damage builds, I said pistol main hand fell below the treshhold of killing anything on it’s own.
There is a big difference.

People keep trying to convince me of the usefullness of the shield, when I argue about the lack of damage of the pistol main hand.
For the record: first thing I did on my engineer, even during the tutorial, was look for a shield. I still use one to this day.
I know what it can do, and I value it very highly.

I’m not focused on killing things when I’m in the shield-pistol set, because I know that can’t be done except for simple mobs I could kill unarmed with only toolbelt skills or something

I’m pointing at the one big flaw in the design of the engineer shield option: you need something else for damage, and given the design that can only be a kit. A kit you have to trait for as well.

Rifle can be used to kill things up close just fine. P/P is beyond discussion.
Pistol shield can not, not on it’s own. No matter the build, you need a secondary kit to do real damage.
That’s a pistol main hand flaw, an overtuning early on, it is not a shield flaw.

Shield has only one flaw for me: a too long base cooldown. Base should be what it becomes traited now.

as I said: I always use the shield.

But could the 3 people above claiming it’s ok that pistol #1 does little damage, explain me one thing:

how do you kill anything when using shield?

my claim is: you need a seperate kit for that, and you better trait that kit to do damage than.

I was NOT talking about pistol #4 being better than using a shield.
I was saying you don’t kill anything with a pistol-shield set up, unless you go for a seperate kit.

You can use rifle as primary weapon, you can use p/p as primary weapon, you can use kits as primary weapon… but you can NOT use pistol-shield as a primary weapon since you can not kill anything with it unless it’s brainless, harmless and has zero healing.

That’s a very big trade-of right there.
I love the utility of the shield, I use it defensively as well as offensively.
But the lack of damage in that set-up is a big issue. It forces you to have a primary weapon set while it’s supposed to be a primary weapon set…

‘Less’ damage is ok and perfectly fine, you get defenses for it.
But pistol main hand in anything but a high condition build does too little damage.
And those builds use pistol ofhand for obvious reasons.

Bottom line is this:
there is a minimum limit when you are doing too low damage to kill another player who heals, or a champion, or a bunch of boss adds.
A shield can only keep you alive for so long. If you aren’t hurting your opponent, you will still die in the end.
My claim is that no primary weapon set should be stuck below that treshhold, and pistol-shield is below that…

I love my shield, heck I even trait it.
But with that poor pistol main hand I’m not killing anything, ever.

Pistol #1 should pierce untraited at least.
Decent mutli-target damage while defending with the shield? Yes, that sounds like a good trade-of.

Double pistol in a condition build is pretty awesome, but pistol main with shield ofhand? Nothing is going to die to that. Even when your tactic is to ‘outlast’ the opponent, he still will outheal that low damage.

When you equip a shield, you better also equip a high damage kit.
And to even have a kit doing high damage at all, you better fully trait that kit.
That’s the downside of using a shield: no matter how awesome it is, you will need something else to do damage with.

as soon as the mod comes back online after crashing, I’m sure he’ll remove this post.

People discuss the pistol as if this thread wasn’t about the shield.
What I mean is this: if you like the pistol, it means you work on condition damage.
if you use condition damage, you should equip 2 pistols for blowtorch.

So if you equip the shield, it is very likely that you didn’t max out on condition damage.
And for those builds… pistol main hand is pretty weak in damage.

Pistol scales a bit on power, true, but in a power build pistol #1 takes aaaaages to kill anything. Use rifle, bombs, Flamethrower, tool kit or even grenades with that exact same build and you’ll see how weak pistol damage is without going conditions.

See, it’s not about liking pistol or not, it’s about: being forced to use a condition damage weapon with a shield.

Not all shield users are condition build, but I think most that go full conditions tend to use pistol ofhand.

GuardianOMS.8067:

Rising Dusk.2408:

GuardianOMS.8067:

Make it karma based. Moving along!

We’re not allowed to get anything useful out of our Karma. Didn’t you get the memo?

I’m not getting memos now either?!

Memo’s are bought with gems.
Laurels next patch.

Zepher.7803:

if you look at all the new content, the new goodies, the new everything that keeps popping up every 2 weeks-4weeks I am very happy.

So keep going Anet! thanks for not listening to the greedy people.

WvW forums…
We have been recieving extremely few ‘goodies’ in WvW since release.

So it’s not about being greedy, it’s about you looking at pve content and responding in the WvW section as if it’s the same.

There are far better ways to avoid siege sabotaging than using a timer.
The timer system brings too much side-effects that are hindering players in their normal playstyle.

I’m all for strategic choices, but wheter or not to sit in a siege for a second each half hour should not be one of these choices!

This thread alone has better solutions. the whole timer idea wasn’t well thought out in design I think.
As usual it ‘can be made to work’.
But is that really our standard for everything in this game?
Some changes just need to be reverted as a bad idea and replaced with a better mechanic.

Typical scenario:

tower gets attacked by enemy group.
let’s say 3 fast defenders get in, they were in the neighboorhood…

1. when siege does not despawn:
3 defenders man 3 arrow carts and the rams are attacked, golems might die, attackers have a hard time at the gate. Maybe they need cata’s, or can they outheal?

Bottom line: defenders buy time till their main forces arrive. Attackers still have a good chance to get in.

2. when siege despawns:
3 defenders get in and wonder where the heck those arrow carts went.
Tower was upgrading as usual, and the dollies get killed… hardly any supply there.
If lucky they can build a single arrow cart, after a lot of running back and forth.

Rams break down the door, golems do a little dance and cata’s will be used next time. Attackers take the tower before the help arrives.
Every time. Every single time!

This happens all the time for me in WvW. It’s not as theorycrafted as it sounds.