Guild Wars 2

Chapan.9170:

Actually, You can Armor of Earth and then share it with Heat sync.

That said, This and Sand Squall is the only reasons I would ever use warhorn and tempest. The rest is just clunky and rather unimpressive.

Speaking of clunky and unimpressive…

…yes you can do this or you can just throw another Guardian in there with “Stand Your Ground” with the same net effect on a 30s cool down that’s instant and a single ability.

Again that continues to be the issue, the long cool down on a shared Stability skill leaves the front line groups still bottle necked by requiring Guardians leaving only a few slots in front line parties for other classes.

Survivability in this game basically comes down to three factors:

1. Passive survivability/damage reduction. We get this a lot in Retribution with up to -20% damage taken at one time and Protection when we get CCd.

2. Mobility. Basically get the heck out of the damage coming. One could also probably include stability in this because it allows you to keep moving.

3. Tons of Healing. You see this on Elementalist and Guardian where they do a lot of relatively tiny heals (1000 here, 500 there, 1000 here or lots of little 100’s).

That said, we get a lot of these. We do get a few heals but not enough to really mention other than they’re a nice damage reduction when they proc. Jalis provides stability and a -50% damage taken for 5 seconds. The stability pulses could probably use a kick in the teeth, like instead of pulsing 1 stab of stability every second it instead did 2 stab every 2 seconds so that way you get more benefit from it while moving (and you’re never not moving).

We also get lots of mobility and clear with Shiro. That’s very powerful and it’s what makes Shiro very survivable even more so than Jalis. Honestly it’s so survivable I’ve started using Shiro/Malyx because it’s more reliable than the 1s of Stability I get from Jalis or the stun break on a 2s cast.

As for running out of Energy I find I’m fine long as I don’t ride the hell out of our stances. We regen around 5 energy a second meaning most of our abilities simply have a 7-10 second cool down on them which actually is really good when you think about it. But if you constantly sit in Impossible Odds or Darkness then yea that plus weapon moves are going to just wreck your energy bar.

As predicted without stability really isn’t working very well. Armor of Earth works for first engagement and Burning Speed works okay for “leaping” in. Soon as Armor is over though you pretty much have to Lightning Flash out of the front line because you don’t have the survivability tools to hang on the front without a front line party full of Guardians giving you stability.

The leap scenario wasn’t as bad as originally thought and honestly just the switch to Air 4 on Warhorn would be sufficient.

Overloads without a break bar are entirely useless. They have basically no range and really don’t offer much. Lightning overload was incredibly disappointing. The 5 second cool down makes them pretty unusable in a pinch like needing a quick source of Breakbar/Protection with Earth.

Shouts fell into two categories: Lackluster and too long CD. Feel the burn was great in PvE because each pulse can hit 5 which is nice for lots of tags. Flash Freeze was my go to aura because of the low CD and access to Frost Aura on demand. Shock and Aftershock was great for 5 seconds then terrible for a long 45 second cool down. Rebound was interesting because I’d use it before Armor of Earth…but then it wouldn’t be up for the next Armor of Earth.

Build I went with (with beta gear – didn’t properly prepare Ascended gear so only had a few pieces left over from Revenant) was this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAo9gcMozhFOI8AY0QIG0CkAwBYDC-TFDEABaqqyTKRiSJ0YqV8jyg0MD0lSQP0DolSDAeAAPcCAiZ/ByAwMGA-w

Stats pretty tough to do honestly as not only do we have to try to make up for extremely low armor but also extremely low HP at the same time basically gutting our offense. This just compounded the problem because now, not only are we not bringing proper support for our group but there goes our offense as well making me wonder why I’d ever choose this spec over Staff support Ele which brings not only support but also lots of damage and survivability.

Norn Earth Channel below.

Doesn’t work at all on the Front Line in WvW.

Currently in WvW there’s only one source of AOE stability for a party and that is the Guardian. Right now most front line parties need 2-3 Guardians to get enough Stability to be functional in today’s WvW CC after the stability changes. Without that many the sheer number of Static Fields, Unsteady Ground, Line of Warding, etc simply outstrips the amount of stability generated for most groups.

Tempest, and Reaper, are just more mouths to feed stability on the front line and already compete with Warriors for those coveted few Stability slots. For what they bring to the table, they just aren’t worth the party slot right now on the front line.

Adding a bit of Fury/Swiftness with Auras (Zephyr’s Boon) and Aura share just isn’t sufficient and they bring nothing new or worth it to a front line group.

Loving it.

Just Hammer or just Mace/Axe or just Staff before was really annoying to play. New system, once I got used to it, has been working out pretty great.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Stinja.9612:

The might is point-less especially since you can cancel jade winds over and over to build 20+ might with a single trait. It will also bait out dodges from people if they know what to dodge on a Rev.

That’s a bug, thanks for pointing it out. It’ll be fixed for the next iteration of revenant.

Another bug is when you use Sword 3 if the target has a back to a wall it cancels and the animation stops because it won’t let you go to that location so it stops instead of putting you in the wall.

Honestly I don’t get that lack survivability tools at all.

Riposting Shadows is insane. Just plainly, stupidly upfront insane. Removes any disabling condis. Gives you evade for duration (basically a dodge roll). Gives you a stun break. Then because all of that wasn’t enough it also gives you 50 endurance to do yet another dodge roll. Oh, and 35 energy so you can do it nearly 3 times in combat at 100 energy in a row. I found myself in the middle of energy zergs yesterday in T1 and survived entirely because of this skill np.

Also Impossible Odd’s superspeed is probably the second most thing that’s saved my life. Superspeed is basically out of combat Swiftness speed even in combat and even when crippled/chilled. It’s pretty kitten amazing for getting out of a bad spot to turn it on and get out of there.

Also with Staff being swappable, we can easily swap to staff and get access to a 2-3s block (Staff 3), an AOE heal/cleanse (Staff 4) and a 600m mobility skill (staff 5). Lotta defense there in a pinch if the Shiro skills can’t help you out.

Two Hammer Skills aren’t working entirely correctly or are misleading. I noticed it quite a bit last night during WvW when I’d throw down a few of the skills they just wouldn’t work or there were zero damage numbers.

Video for reference:
https://youtu.be/jagvEpjPJlQ

COALESCENCE OF RUIN
After a bit of testing I noticed the following characteristics with this skill:

1. If you fire this on an incline you have to be on the incline for it to continue to travel. This can make this skill very hit and miss when you are out in the wild because the world isn’t such a flat place. The video sample shows some very clear examples of this happening with some very obvious inclines/declines but I noticed it happened a lot out in the world in various locations as well where you wouldn’t expect it to.

2. More critically, the visual of the skill goes way beyond where it actually hits by a large margin. Using the video reference, you can see @1:18 that despite being smack in the middle of the final Ruin explosion the wurm doesn’t even get hit. You can also see at the start of this situation that the wurms are clearly within the 1200m range. This, more than anything, meant I lost most of my damage when roaming around in WvW when fighting at range in a ranged stand off. When not and more up close I noticed my damage was where it should be.

PHASE SMASH
The main issue here is it has issues with the Z axis and smashes. You are given a clear green reticle, but you don’t actually go down on the Z axis and smash there and instead leap straight forward. If the target is close enough to that you will hit (such as on the deer in the video) but if not you will miss entirely (such as you see with the wurm).

Also stats wise I did:

Berserker armor (hoelbrak)
Berserker hammer (strength, bloodlust) / staff (cleansing, energy)
Soldier neck, Cavalier ring, Knight ring, Knight earring, Berserker earring, Berserker back
(all Ascended)
Sharpening Stone
Lemongrass Soup

That gave me:
2552 Power (no Bloodlust, no Guard stacks)
2743 Armor
17702 HP (over 20k with Guard stacks)
39.66% crit rating
195% crit dmg (205% in combat due to Assassin’s Presence)
-60% condi duration

Spec wise I did
Devastation 1, 2, 1
Retribution 2, 3, 3
Invocation 3, 2, 2

Devastation is straight up damage add. Since I’m using 2h no point in the dual wield bonus and the extra might is pretty decent for added damage. Retribution is huge damage decreases with -10% for anything beyond 360, and -10% when I’m under 75% as well as Protection on disable and healing when struck works out really well for self regulated defenses that aren’t very micro’d. Invocation isn’t bad adding Fury which is great with Enchanted Daggers. Not 100% on Invigorating Flow but again it’s part of that passive healing/defense. I don’t have Fury up enough (or really need it) to make good use out of the 10% crit boost of Roiling Mists and with the extremely high energy costs of our utilities I find myself under 50 energy a lot to really take advantage of Charged Mists (pretty sure there’s an unlisted ICD however).

Worked great.

I also main an Elementalist in a largish (20-25+) group and I somewhat agree and disagree.

Playing Shiro/Jalis last night I found an amazing level of self survivability. Most cases I rarely even had to pop into Jalis to survive. A lot of it was based on Riposting Shadows which served as condition removal, evasion, stunbreak and restored 50 endurance. I mean holy !@#$ in a single button press. Impossible Odds also served as amazing mobility in combat because if I got into a bad position it was no problem could just pop that and zip on over with out of combat speed mobility. A lot of times as Revenant last test I’d get stuck in combat in the rear and be like “welp” and get run over by the enemy.

Damage wise Shiro’s heal actually added some pretty decent damage add. More than a few times I saw hits for 8k crit with a 2k crit follow up. The heal itself wasn’t as useful but I found healing to not really be an issue.

The problem was all of this really added nothing to the group. The “bomb” a Revenant delivers is pretty mediocre at best. Coalescence of Ruin is inconsistent at best (video coming later) and you really provide no boons, no damage add and no boosts to your allies. Shiro’s boosts are entirely for yourself. Now Jalis does have a few boosts but they’re either incredibly short duration (5s) or they’re ground based which is useless on the move and if you don’t move you’re dead.

Now this is largely specific to the Shiro/Jalis combo. Malyx and Corruption on the other hand have a lot going for a group. With boon removal (Spontaneous Destruction is 1200m range with hammer), condi absorption, resistance granting and a displacement field to protect backline it actually has a lot to offer at the cost of protecting ourselves and doing more damage.

I think every spec requires Jalis because Jalis is the only source of Stability on the Revenant currently. While I would want to say Shiro will work as well due Riposting Shadows (evade back, clear immob/cripple/chill and break stun) the problem is without the lack of Stability you’re just leaving yourself open for a follow up CC so “just” stun breaks aren’t effective in a scenario like WvW where you’re facing down multiple CCs at once.

Actually I rarely use Embrace. Typically speaking 10% attributes isn’t good to just run around with considering the more important uses for energy (for example, Unyielding Anguish, Pain Absorption, heals, Rite of the Great Dwarf, etc) and really only flip it on when looking for a small duration burn period. I find the energy better spent on other abilities so energy management isn’t an issue at all.

If you use Pain Absorption as intended and pull plenty of conditions from nearby allies you actually have plenty of resistance with Demonic Resistance especially with a heal shortly after giving you around 10s of Resistance (3s base+5s pulled+2s from heal) and if you want to blow all your energy you can grab another stack with a follow up Pain Absorption. In WvW in fact I found this hugely beneficial.

Boonstrip is less of a concern in larger scale WvW and honestly only a very few classes really have ample access to Boon strip in the first place. Both the classes notorious for it (Thieves with Steal and Mesmer with Shatter) largely will be doing this in a 1v1 scenario where Malyx is likely going to underperform regardless because you’re bringing a Condi character to a burst damage fight where something like Shiro/Jalis would ultimately be better.

Kidel.2057:

The problem with Mallyx is that if you use it as intended you just die from conditions atm. It’s only good to keep the damage up when IO is on cd.

Actually this is entirely inaccurate. With Demonic Resistance equipped you pretty much ignore conditions. With Pain Absorption in a group of people affected you pretty much stack way more resistance than condi duration and if you pop Empowered Misery right after and you have 5-6 condis on you it’s really impressive healing.

Kidel.2057:

Kodiak.3281:

Of course when we see Glint that’ll likely screw all that up haha.

I really hope so. I don’t really want to rely on Jalis for condi cleanse, at least not until its other skills become meaningful.

Well the Jalis thing is more for the Stability Road and Stun Break. Many cases when I was caught I had to swap to Jalis (stun break) then usually stun break again (Rite of the Great Dwarf) just to get out of bad situations. Prepping up Road is okay but never stacks enough stability to be meaningful due to it’s ultra short duration requiring it to basically be spammed forever to keep stab (not really effective to do so). The 3 condi cleanse on the heal is kinda just a bonus and usually works well in conjunction with Malyx where when resistance can’t be maintained (can’t draw conditions) and you gotta clear condi to keep going.

That’s really where Glint is going to screw things up. Glint, given what we’re missing, likely will be a solid ranged DPS line (not sure how that’ll work with shield…but utilities are likely ranged) if you want that ranged DPS you’ll have to leave yourself vulnerable to conditions.

Really this is kinda the whole problem with the Revenant design currently, everything is so packaged together so tightly (no swappable utilities) you’re kinda forced into X or Y if you want the related abilities rather than simply being able to swap in relevant utilities as needed you’re forced to take a whole set of utilities for a single one.

Kidel.2057:

@Kodiak
I kinda agree with you, however I wasn’t talking about Salvation+Ventari, but only Salvation trait line.
Also yeah, thinking more carefully Retribution is kind of a must in WvW for the damage reduction against ranged foes, plus mitigations and Retaliation. Guess we’ll probably have to rely on Invocation for condi cleanse.

Salvation line is designed entirely around healing others. The only trait in there I even remotely saw as interesting was the condi cleanse on dodge roll which, while nice, doesn’t justify an entire line when there’s tons of other classes in the game cleansing Condis far easier in a zerg.

To be honest man if you go Invocation the Fury on heal is way better especially since you’ll most likely be Jalis and get that powerful 3 Condi clear and Resistance in Malyx makes conditions non-existent. That and cleanse one condi every 10 seconds or so on Legend Swap just isn’t effective. With the large amount of hard CC (only real counter in Jalis / Shiro) and the large amount of soft CC (being condi based only real clear is Jalis and Malyx) pretty much leaves Jalis/Malyx or Shiro/Malyx as the only choices.

Of course when we see Glint that’ll likely screw all that up haha.

Kidel.2057:

I’m also struggling with my WvW build!
PvE and PvP are easier with Rev.

Guess I’ll take all the condi cleanse I can however, so I’m probably going with Devastation+Invocation+Salvation. Still unsure about gear.

Retribution I see as kinda non-negotiable as the defenses on a class with very low mobility and few stun breaks/stability is kinda needed. The protection on disable, the -dmg taken, heal on damage taken, all adds up to some beefy defense.

Salvation and Ventari I found completely worthless in WvW. If any kind of CC gets on you then you’re disabled and screwed and second you leave Ventari you lose all benefits from it. Oh sure on a ranged stand off it was okay, but even then healing 5 people was pretty much pointless when the standard Water Field + Blast is going to continue to be the staple refresh mechanism. The micromanagement part actually not bad, kinda challenging, but ultimately what got me to stop using it was every time I’d be in Ventari I’d always end up back in Jalis just to swap back.

Malyx with Corruption actually has a ton going for it and was really surprised. My performance in WvW went up massively once I switched to using Malyx/Jalis combination because with Corruption it made Malyx skills all grant a ton of resistance with Demonic Resistance. I loved seeing Cow Trebs because it meant I’d be stealing everyone’s conditions and building up massive amounts of resistance (at one point I was up to 30s without the bug). With Hoelbrak and Lemongrass Soup on the conditions fell off super fast as well (much shorter than resistance). Banish Enchantment and Spontaneous Destruction (especially) were great in most fights because the later can proc even up to 1200m away with Hammer skills. Maniacal Persistance was actually pretty strong as well and should pair up nicely with Devastation. Unyielding Anguish is a miracle skill for defending backline rushers (forces who teleport in on your backline) cause it sends them everywhere ignoring Stability even. Stat boost on the Ultimate wasn’t bad either.

The real crux of this test for me is Devastation vs Invocation. Devastation offers a lot of damage add with 10% crit damage (for all), and the standard “execute” style GM trait alongside tons of synergy with Vulnerability. However Invocation offers some damage add in terms of Fury and increased Fury performance (albeit personally I prefer the Might generation which if you spam skills a lot under 50 energy was stacking 8-10 stacks of Might for me) but also a very important stun break on legend swap.

Also as good as Jalis is, only 3 of the 5 skills are useful for WvW (heal, road and ultimate) with the taunt and hammer spin largely being useless. If it weren’t the only few sources of stun break, stability and condi clear it may even be worth skipping for Shiro and do a Shiro/Malyx combo. I plan to try a few combos out of course and see what I feel handles best (giving each 6ish odd hours in WvW in Tier 1) but we’ll have to see.

For PvE of course all of this is academic because Devastation/Invocation are the obvious choices combined with Malyx most likely due to just being more DPS add.

I believe Roy implied that movement speed traits would be with Glint so we’ll have to see if that’s what he actually meant.

Having a tough time thinking about my WvW (zerg) build. Some pretty tough choices between the two final trait lines.

What are you doing in WvW? Zerg vs Zerg? Guild vs Guild? Small Squad Havoc? 1vX Roaming?

Only thing I really saw impressive was the Boon removal on Fire 5. Everything else was pretty much meh. Most overloads, when used, were interrupted and most Warhorn skills simply would have been better with /Dagger.

Now to be objective, this could be because as a “Front Line” character it’s designed to really shine in a group WvW environment but we’ll have to wait for this weekend to see (I don’t have high expectations regardless).

The displacement skill so strong in WvW. So, stupidly strong.

It’s a personal joy when I watch the enemy zerg randomly flipping around as they rush into our backline.

For what it’s worth I too would like to see some sort of option for a passive 25% movement increase. As with any 25% increase in the game, it would be an option and spec’d into or some kind of Signet. Yes there are rune options, but runes are also pretty big in terms of what else they offer and it’d be a shame to have to give up Rune slots for a little bit of convenience.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

I quoted Roy….. It’s his words, not mine. LOL! How is that nitpicking semantics? His point was pretty plain.

It’s pretty obvious there’s a packaged synergy there for each line. You’re nit picking semantics because when we’re pointing out those packaged combinations you’re saying it’s wrong because technically you don’t have to follow them. Which, okay, sure but that doesn’t mean they’re any less packaged even if you choose to be different.

First build I’m going to try is this:
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgYFXAG4Arw~

Devastation, Corruption, Retribution
Malyx/Jalis
Sword/Sword – Hammer

Wanna give this a shot in WvW. Primarily Hammer. S/S when roaming and caught alone. I had a lot of success using Malyx and Corruption last Beta Weekend. The boon removal was great with Hammer in WvW with Spontaeous Destruction and hard cast Banish Enchantment. Unyielding Anguish was amazing at stopping zerg rushes because you could drop it defensively on the backline and frontline rushers would be teleported all over. The resistance basically allowed me to ignore conditions and serve as a condi removal bot for the team (such as infinite stacks of resistance/poison from a Cow Treb).

Now depending on how that works, I may have to go back to Invocation instead. The stun break on legend swap on a class with very few stun breaks is pretty clutch and there’s lots of damage to be had out of that line as is. We’ll have to see how that one goes.

Quarktastic.1027:

With weapons tailored to specific legends, and being stuck with a single weapon but two legends, made the class feel less finished that it should have felt.

This pretty much summed it up. Revenant right now is a very packaged character. If you take Sword/Sword, you’re intended to also take the Shrio Legend and also intended to take the Shiro Line. Malyx isn’t even usable without Corruption for the Resistance on Demon utility use or it’s too much of a detriment even with the reduced durations.

Not having another weapon just wasn’t justified and it should be good now.

FrownyClown.8402:

Anet won’t change anything until after the open beta so make sure you guys provide feedback!

Yea I’ll see if I can even get a group on the front line with the character but I wouldn’t get my hopes up :/

Jski.6180:

Warhone is a support wepon and tempest is more on the support side then on the dmg side. Ele is the dmg build atm where tempest is the support def. Think on thoughts lines when it comes to tempest in the front line so more like a gurd then a war.

The problem is the Tempest currently doesn’t bring the kind of Support a front line support needs to bring to a group. As we’ve all been saying, repeatedly, the biggest thing front line support needs to bring is Stability. The mobility component, which exists on Guardians as well, is incredibly crucial for Elementalists to actually keep up on that front line.

Warriors, in fact, are not brought for damage but instead control factor (Hammer) and Banner to revive downs after the bomb engagement. In many ways that adds a level of unique support that even the Tempest doesn’t currently bring. Also because Warriors only get very limited stability, mainly from Balanced Stance, they generally rely on Guardian groups anyways to even remotely function on the front line.

Everything else the Tempest currently brings is already brought (and better) by Staff Elementalist back line.

Bottom line is this: Unless Tempest brings more AOE stability for it’s front line party it’s just another mouth to feed for Guardians. Guardians will continue to be the primary front line class the rest of the group is built around and Tempest simply has no place in the party currently.

Linnael.1069:

1 thing and 1 thing only makes a frontliner. Stability.

I think this is true to an extent, right now majority of stability comes from one source and that source is pretty much stacked Guardians with “Stand Your Ground.” Warriors in front line parties already take up a lot and while they can bring an okay amount of Stability majority of the work is really being done by Guardians. This is why by making Stability on Auras would remove that Guardian bottleneck from the front line.

That said leaps are still very important. It’s one of the main reasons the Warriors can keep up still on the front line and why D/D Elementalists fell off the front line (there was a time they were there).

When I started playing GW2, I wasn’t in my current guild as most of my guild were playing in other teams/groups when GW2 came out. Since GW2 came out we formed a guild and with HOT a lot of them were looking to come back. Except now we’re in a bit of an issue. A lot of our members over time have gotten on BlackGate but a number of people aren’t and are on old servers down deep in the brackets (anything from Henge of Denravi to Eredon Terrace).

The only option we have with the new system is basically to transfer off to get everyone to play together. The problem with this was it was a huge process to get 75% of us on BlackGate on the first place. A lot of people to get on BlackGate the first time went the cheap option of deleting their characters entirely to transfer over and just level a new toon. Many others farmed for stupid PvE hours to get enough money to transfer. I can’t ask my members to do that again and the people not on our server basically are now stuck with a brick wall of WvW activity.

In the old system it was possible, through diligence, to transfer over. In the current system it is impossible. I have to basically tell 10 or so guild members sorry, you’re not going to get on, and we’re not going to transfer off. That’s 10 HOT sales that you aren’t going to get from our group and unknown gem sales as people look for other games they can actually play with each other with.

Yea that really is the crux of it it Mightybird. If they want the Overload mechanic usable, then we’re going to need multiple options to get around. Otherwise there will never be enough reward on it to outweigh the risk of falling behind and getting singled out and dead on the front line.

Not going to pretend or care to know all the little nuances between DX11 or DX12 or DX9 or whatever but I will say is I just want a game that doesn’t crash. The thread linked they talk about memory fragmentation and how a x64 bit client would fix that.

That’s all I want. To play the game, on full settings, and not crash at a big event. My computer can easily handle it. Sitting in a 3 hour queue at reset night or missing out on a world boss I helped take down to 25% because of a out of memory client crash is just the worst and the only option to fix is basically tank the graphics.

Neat more graphics options that I can’t turn on because the client can’t handle it and will cause it to crash incessantly OOM when ever doing a task with lots of people around (world bosses, wvw, etc).

Was good to see you as well accept that the Tempest in it’s current form wasn’t all that great too.

As others say, hopefully the Devs read and understand the problems even if they don’t take our solutions. Karl isn’t renown for his feedback on the forums (Can’t blame him) unfortunately so we’ll just have to wait and see.

Raif.9507:

Earth Dagger 3 is unblockable, so there’s that.

Alright, so that’s true, but it still requires a target in order to work. The opportunity remains to shore up the idea of untargeted mobility which is staple in a front line class. Putting additional mobility moves on multiple attunements means the ability to keep mobile regardless of what attunement you are in which further supports the idea of Overloading.

While I understand there may be concerns here, understand there’s no large damage adds coming in with it. For example even with 2-4 mobility move possibilities it’s not like Elementalists are suddenly going to be like Heart Seeker spamming Thieves.

And RIP.

Our guild has around 15/20-30 people onto Black Gate. It’s slowly been opening up as people have been transferring off (the new YB bandwagon). Over time we’ve been getting people in by camping the transfer screen for a few hours. Understand these people are slowly coming back to the game after not playing at release and want to just come check out the game with their friends. However now it seems that’s pretty much never gonna work anymore because BlackGate is active enough in WvW that it’ll never open up. This leaves majority of us on the server with few people off who can never participate. Before there was at least hope they’d get in, now it sounds like it’s basically non-existent. Asking us to transfer 15 people off to play with 5 others is ridiculous.

Dislike this decision immensely.

The most immediate thoughts come to mind:

Dedicated Condition spec/build. Right now our conditions are thematically spread around all our other attunements (IE: Fire = Burn, Earth = Bleed, etc). They could have removed some of the burst from Scepter in favor of additional conditions to make it into a condition weapon and then give us strong Conditions on an offhand.

Dedicated Burst build. With Fresh Air and Bolt to the Heart both at GM it pretty much destroyed the last burst build we had as an Elementalist. They could have again reworked Scepter as part of the Specialization update and then create a new bursty Specialization with an offhand to go with Scepter as a pair.

Mobility build. As the class with the lowest HP/Armor by default we’re primed for thief style mechanics. Even if the damage is limited due to access to base healing style abilities and boon access (something thieves lack) their mobility and even possibly stealth could have easily been incorporated into the character.

Hell even the front line idea isn’t bad, but they need it do it right. They simply didn’t give the right tools for the front line. The Guardian Stability bottleneck is real and there’s already plenty of other classes looking to rely on Guardians (Warriors, Necros) for stability. With proper leaps (600m range, 8-15s cool downs) and an ability to bring group stability (Auras) it is possible to make it viable. However if we’re given the same general tool set and told to play on the Front Line that just isn’t going to happen.

FrownyClown.8402:

Oh i missed the stability part in your post. I’d have to say these are changes that need to happen to make frontline ele a possibility. +1 if the devs decide this is worth looking into.

Thanks man hopefully they do!

maddoctor.2738:

Already posted some of the combos:

“Feel the Burn!” or Wildfire + Blinding Ashes is a massive AoE Blind
Cyclone + Lightning Rod = Good damage on multiple foes + weakness + control
Lots of support for Auras making an Auramancer viable In general there are lots of combos in Tempest with the old traits, which is good.

These combinations already exist with Flame Burst (Staff Fire 3) and Blinding Ashes and Static Field + Lightning Rod. Both of these in fact can be done at 1200m range too. In fact the Flame Burst can be cast on the cool down of Blinding Ashes as well.

Most of the new sources of Auras, the Shouts, are already all Shared as well giving no advantage to Powerful Auras that doesn’t already exist (for example Dagger Air 3 being shared can occur today). Aura Sharing’s biggest benefit is Zephyr’s Boon which adds Fury and Swiftness. We can actually stack a lot of Fury AOE with Might Stacking combinations with the Persisting Flame Traits to nearby allies. We also have many sources of AOE Swiftness with our access to blast finishers and Lightning Combo Fields.

What new options do they have?

I think the more important question than we don’t have to go Tempest is why would we go Tempest in the current state? When you consider all the current game modes, there’s no where where the Tempest fits. In PvP the D/D option is superior. In PvE and WvW the Staff options are superior. There’s no where it fits and something as cool as a Specialization should have some kind of place in the game. The kind of “Well you’re already so awesome” excuse will ultimately mean we’ll never get anything cool which is disappointing.

Especially when there’s ways to make their existing idea actually work and bring something new to the table.

Jski.6180:

Dagger tends to cover the ele leaping combat. Warhorn more of a support wepon then aggressive wepon much like a shield / forces is a def wepon.

Actually the Dagger only has one flat combat leap, and that’s Burning Speed on a 15s cool down. Now that isn’t bad, but it’s also a major source of damage and is also only on Fire Attunement. Magnetic Grasp/Leap combo is good as well, but requires a target which is entirely different (especially as a projectile that can be reflected/blocked/etc). The only way you’re going to keep up with Warriors/Guardians is to add additional small leap abilities. None of the base cool downs of the suggested leap additions is that bad and often cases takes a “meh” ability and adds a little something to it.

Warhorn as a support weapon is redundant and adds nothing. Elementalists already have access to some of the best support in the game on a variety of weapons. It has amazing Might stacking with Dagger/Scepter and Dagger/Focus offhand. It has some of the best boon sharing in the game as seen in PvP with existing options. In WvW it’s been a staple character for any meta or game play because of it’s near unique ability to generate water fields for other classes to blast and AOE refresh.

Warhorn as a weapon that still provides a level of support, with Aurashare providing a level of Stability support and adding small mobility to the mix (again no leap is over 600) that can be used regardless of target is something that adds something new to the character and actually opens it up to the front line.

rotten.9753:

You have the better leap on offhand dagger…

Actually there’s no leap on the offhand Dagger except Ride the Lightning, which on a 40s base cool down (27s with Aeromancer Training) and 1200 range puts you too slow to keep up with additional leaps (Warriors/Guardians will leap twice as much as you can) and it will also send you way past your group since you can’t cancel the effect at 600m like every other leap in the game.

Again the idea is to stick with the other melee, because if you get off the other melee you no longer are spreading damage amongst the melee stack and you’ll take the full brunt of 10-15 people’s AOEs and you’ll just die. This is why D/D bruiser ele fell out of WvW front line in the first place (they simply didn’t have the mobility to keep up).

Well the main reason to run the Shouts over full Cantrips is primarily their Aura generation. If we tie Stability to Auras, that means Aura Share becomes our source of Stability amongst other buffs. Since all the Shouts automaticlly Share Auras with our 5 closest allies (front line party) that works with or without having Water line equipped (you don’t want one line tied to another line to make it work).

On the topic of Shouts, I would also redesign two other aspects. I would rename Arcane Shield to Arcane Aura. I would also make Rebound add a Arcane Aura and increase the cool down to 120 seconds. This would also thematically fit as well as add a new layer of protection (Blocking) to the front line Tempest Ele. To start maybe make it 3 charges and if it’s too OP then reduce it down to 2. No Stun Break like Arcane Aura does. Possibly remove the reduced recharge at all and redesign the current Arcane Shield skill to a different Arcane style move instead. Dunno exactly, just a loose thought.

And if the concern was too many classes have Sword, then give us the Axe with same moves instead. Axe is typically pretty “whirly” on most classes and Frostfang is already elemental themed. Also only four classes have Axe at all, only three of which can main hand it.

Raif.9507:

Not a bad breakdown. I don’t think that many leaps are necessary, but it’s good.

I’d add to work Overload numbers as well though. Air damage up, Fire damage up, water healing up and earth needs a large blast at the end for heavy damage. Otherwise even with your changes, they’re still not worth casting.

Well here’s the idea behind that. I mean we’re going to guaranteed be taking Tempest and most likely we’ll also be taking Water or Arcane as well. That leaves only one line life. With two 24s cool down charges, that lets one go down to a 16s timer and the other remains on a 24s timer. The third, defensive leap would always be on that large 30s timer. The only reason we swap the two is so we instinctively know Leaps are always on the “4” key (I shoulda been more clear on that). The biggest thing to account for is the attunement swap timers as well if you are overloading which could prevent you from coming back in time even if you did have both of them to below 24s.

Generally speaking I never wanted the Elementalist to be without a Leap style move, but at the same time only make one of the three really a Leap Finisher (the Fire Leap) at the cost of no longer sharing all Boons, only Might.

The only additional change I’d make to Overloads beyond the already planned increase radius is the no longer have 5s to activate. It would be the same global timer when swapping attunements then you can activate them. Fire’s damage is never going to be impressive because of the straight up damage plus burn. Furthermore it’s damage is listed less than Lightning Rod but I typically hit for 1-3k with Lightning Rod. Biggest thing about Air is that it pulses at every 0.25 seconds making it pretty interesting with all that Vulnerability as well (19 pulses in 4.75 seconds). Water’s healing isn’t going to be that impressive so long as it’s dishing out Healing, Regen AND condi cleanse but could use a Blast Finisher at the end.

Initially I’d estimate a fight would go something like this:

Start in Fire. Group starts Mighting Up you blow Overload Fire for AOE Might to everyone stacked up. You then Dessicated Surge forward sharing Might Stacks with anyone you have stacked up (should be at around 20 if you got a Guardian Empowering) as they go. When first Stability is called you use a Shout to generate an Aura (probably Flash Freeze). The first combat leap in you Fire 3 forward and then swap to Air. On engagement you are spamming 1 for Cleave and then activate Shocking Aura right into Overload Air using the Super Speed to keep up with your commander. You follow this up with Cyclone to keep leaping in/around back on tag or through the enemy. Second stab is called you use your other Aura shout. If your commander preps for a Refresh you can swap to Water to do Water 4 to heal and push back anyone towards your refresh. You then can pop 5+3 for a self blast finisher (saving Water Overload for 2nd refresh if needed). If you get in trouble at all you can swap to Earth and use a combination of Earth Overload (crippling anyone near by and protecting allies) while also still having Dust Storm as another final leap. Start over in Fire.

Basically we create a mobile front liner who can actually keep up with the front line in a variety of ways and widens the Guardian bottleneck for stability (Stand your Ground) on the front line.

Proposed Trait Changes
Trait wise there’s only a few changes needed.

Speedy Conduit: Super Speed for duration of Overcharge time (IE: If Overcharge is only 2s then it’s only 2s of Super Speed). Honestly Super Speed is the only kind of noticeable boost in combat there is. Swiftness is everywhere and very common in any group so going a smidge faster doesn’t actually help

Hardy Conduit: All Overcharges now get access to a Break Bar. We’re all thinking it, I’m just gonna say it. Protection isn’t sufficient to get the job done to protect while channeling. I know this is a new mechanic and you are hesitant about giving it to players, but the CC out there is rediculous in WvW. There’s literally endless CC after the stability change and you’re just never going to use this mechanic without this kind of thing in place.

Tempestous Aria: Reduce Shout CD please.

Elemental Bastion: Remove the healing, add 2 stacks of Stability that lasts 3 seconds when you apply an Aura. Leave Frost Aura Proc. Alternatively remove Frost Aura proc, add stability and keep healing. This is a controversial move but it needs to be done to get the Elementalist out there as a viable front line. Honestly a few stacks of 3s Stability even when shared aren’t going to really break the game but would go a long way at making Elementalist go on the front line. It also helps break the Guardian stranglehold/bottle neck on front line stability.

These address the Stability issues for Elementalist in a front line party. It makes Overcharge not such an impossible suggestion as well as creates loads of synergy with Auras into a natural Water/Tempest build with options for more offense in Air (Zephyr’s Boon, Bolt to the Heart) as well as a few Leap Combos for Fire Aura with Fire 5/4 and Dagger Earth 3 as well as makes room for Shouts as each Shout now also adds Stability with the Auras. Powerful Auras lets you share that giving you front line support.

Prototype Build in Action

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAotgcMwwBhGAjOCFhYgUACAfQA-TFSQwAeUi9VtiVKBFrqSIlBpUaAY/he6BIDAzYA-w

There ya go. Instant front liner. Just add Stability and Leaps. You could use two of the new Shouts such as Flash Freeze and Feel the Burn for additional Auras. There’s lots of competitive choices for Minor (more auras? stun break on stun?). Tempestuous Aria (with change) is competitive with the others with 3 shouts meaning more Aura up time but Earthen Proxy is super smexy too. Imbued Melodies with the new leaps can be great (leap forward -> break stuns) but the Stability trait is still pretty much the big choice if you need additional group Stability.

Air has a lot to offer. Zephyr’s is obvious as an Aura Build. Aeromancer training brings Cyclone down to 16s, good enough time for leap and Fresh Air brings you back. Fresh Air of course can synergize with bringing down the powerful Air Overload down so you can keep cleaving/leaping as needed. Water works due to Powerful Auras, additional defenses and otherwise.

You have possible defensive combination of gear with frontline level armor and HP. Your Offense isn’t crazy, and if anything a bit low, but not low enough to feel like you’re a Nomad Guardian. For a first pass at the gear, it’s not a terrible mix of stats.

Summary
Simply put, the existing Tempest build shown just isn’t ever going to be on any serious front line in the current game. It’s perfectly possible that there’s some kind of game shattering change coming in HoT where the Tempest fits in perfectly. However in the current game there’s virtually nothing the Tempest can do that isn’t better fulfilled by Staff, Dagger/Dagger, Dagger/Focus and the existing trait lines. That could be a tribute to what an amazing job was done with the Elementalist but I think we can do better than that. It is possible to deliver the character design but only if they’re willing to take it there. Front Line is unforgiving. It’s why we fell off the front line as D/D in WvW as is. If you won’t give us the tools to stay there, it’s just not going to work.

So I should preface to say that as a primary WvW character, this is from that perspective. I play on BlackGate so my WvW experience also reflects that experience as some may know WvW can really vary from Tier to Tier.

What is Frontline?
Right now Frontline is defined by two primary classes, the Guardian and the Warrior. What makes these classes good at Front Line? When you break down these classes currently the biggest thing that makes them great front line characters is their in combat mobility with Leaps. Leaps are very meta right now for front line characters because strong ranged nuke bombing (IE: Necros, Elementalist) are very common. Being able to get out of “the bomb” is crucial and both classes have easy weapon access to low cool down mobility skills (Leap of Faith -15s, Savage Leap – 8s, Earthshaker – 8s, etc). Majority of this also works due to stability stacking from multiple Guardians all sharing Stability with one another.

This is all built around the concept that all the Front Line have to stick together otherwise if they don’t you will get separated out from the herd and eat the full brunt of many people’s stacked AOE damage (where as with a group it’s spread out amongst everyone with the 5 target cap).

What about Support?
Often cases a fight will go with Front line going in, bombs are dropped, then either a refresh is called or you finish the fight. With a refresh called, water fields are dropped and front line and otherwise us blast finishers (such as Guardian’s Mighty Blow skill) to blast water and recover before charging back in again. Most of the in combat support is handled via the in combat Stability and pre combat Might stacking that occurs currently as well as the copious amount of condition removal (too many to list).

Tempest Front Line
So you can see from that description, there’s very few tools the new Tempest tool kit really can bring to hang with the front line. It received no mobility additions as part of it’s tool kit. This means it’s going to get separated out from the rest of the Front Line and eat that full damage because it can’t leap. Any mobility skills it can have (such as from Cantrips) are on incredibly long cool downs meaning if they have to leap back in again they are boned there too. Also the support it adds is limited. It could precast Overcharge Fire for Might Stacks (similar to a Guardian’s Empower) but this wouldn’t happen mid combat. However we can fix this.

Proposed Warhorn Changes
Heat Sync -> Dessciated Surge
CD reduced to 24s. Leap Finisher. 600 range. Charge forward giving yourself 3 stacks of Might and sharing any current Might Stacks to nearby allies. This removes sharing all boons and only shares Might. This gives a more starting leap to start out with to buff allies.

Cyclone
Player now surges forward leaving the trail of Cyclones that pulls players in behind them. Exact same idea as before, only now they surge forward as well. This gives them a good offensive move to leap in with.

Dust Storm -> Sand Squall
Player becomes a Sand storm and randomly surges forward (zig zag pattern) leaving those in the wake blinded and vulnerable. Invuln during surge forward. Player would randomly flash here and there (similar to Displacement) ending up 600m from where they started. This gives a a good leap to get out with since you’re protected during the duration of the surge forward.

All of these give the Tempest much needed mobility on the front line. Front line is entirely defined by leaps currently due to extremely strong ranged DPS bomb (Necros, Elementalists!) and not having the mobility to keep up with the other front line is going to leave you singled out and dead.

(cont)

dtox.8397:

I dont think they gotta remake it,especially cuz its already done and they WONT create a whole new specialization.
Its cool the way it is,they just gotta work on traits,add some stuff on shouts and give some boost to overload to make it worth using it.

Really don’t have to create a new specialization. Simply modify some warhorn skills, few traits, and it’s pretty much front line capable.

Without the changes however it’s simply not. It’s essentially missing the two most important traits of a front line fighter (leap mobility and stability).

There’s lots of ways to add new mechanics to the existing class to make it play like a new one. For example mobility. Elementalist doesn’t have any of the characteristic low mobility cd moves of Warriors/Guardians who currently make up the front line (IE: savage leap, leap of faith, etc).

I’d make a new post on how to do it, but making a new post is broken for me at the moment :P

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

First Rule of Frontline Club: Bring enough stability.

Tempest doesn’t have a single trait or skill that grants stability, WHAT? In a spec all about channeling long casts? Seriously?

The craziest thing is it’d be so easy for them to use all the same tools/mechanics/etc they already got and make a decent frontline character.

They said repeatedly that they want Tempest to be a front line build. The problem is not with this concept. The problem isn’t even with the Warhorn as a weapon either.. The problem was they gave virtually none of the necessary tools to hang on the front line and instead just gave us a bunch of support utility we already had as a class. If that was all we needed to be on the front line, we would already be there.

Adds Nothing New.