Guild Wars 2

Going to go with my original statement. I think it’s a mixture of Ascalonian and Elonian (Istani, specifically) history like the Aquatic Fractal seems to be.

My laptop can’t handle GW2 in general. I can log on for minimum graphics but it burns up and I can’t get 30 minutes in before even solitude becomes laggy like all hell.

Any pics of the statues? Those alone can point at the origin, as each culture’s statues have a distinctly different design to them.

Tamias.7059:

I get that, but Trueclaw would have known that more than five races survived, so the five races she’s referring must have some other criteria distinguishing them from the other races of the time – the only one I can think of is the fact that they were allied with one another.

What makes you say that? She, in fact, states that as far as she knows, there were but five surviving sentient races that fought the Elder Dragons – “that we know of” referring to that. Five surviving sentient races that fought the Elder Dragons. There’s no mention of unification or alliances or indication of such.

But still, why would Trueclaw have known more had survived? What evidence do you have for such?

Tamias.7059:

Correct me if I’m putting words in your mouth, but I think we’re seeing this thing with the stars differently. I think you’re seeing as the awakening of a star coinciding with the rise of the Elder Dragons in the jotun records, and so the stars can be used to measure time but are otherwise unrelated to the Elder Dragons.

This would be astronomy, but I see it differently. The way I read it, every time an Elder Dragon awakens, a new star appears in the night sky.

Your not putting words in my mouth, and I’m not questioning the jotun having astronomy – that’s a confirmed fact.

What I am asking is why you claim a definitive knowledge of tengu knowing jotun astronomy. You provided no reason for why the tengu would know jotun astronomy.

Tamias.7059:

When they awaken, so do these new stars. Stars, plural. I think this could be understood as a 1:1 correspondence between Elder Dragon awakening and star appearance, so to speak. Then the appearance of a new star at the end of Arah makes more sense, because it can be understood to be a foreshadowing of the awakening of a new Elder Dragon. And sure, Varra says that the stars appearing do not determine the events in Tyria, but there’s nothing to say that the reverse can’t be true (i.e. events in Tyria can determine the night sky).

Stars, plural. True. But more than one star came to be over the multiple cycles.

If events on Tyria determined the night sky, which isn’t impossible to argue then the stars would not be a proper tool of timetelling, which Varra also says is the case:

This is an amazing discovery! The jotun’s sky-sweeper shows a stellar match with the last time the dragons awoke.
→What does this prove?
It shows that the awakening of the dragons is a natural and cyclical thing. The stars only indicate the passing ages. They do not determine events here.
→When did it last happen?
Around ten thousand years ago. You know what this means? The Elder Dragons may have been responsible for the extinction of the Giganticus Lupicus!

See the bold.

Varra uses the stars appearing in the sky as an indication of ages passing. It would not be very reliable of the formation of stars was determined by events in Tyria.

Tamias.7059:

The only other thing I think we know about the stars in Tyria is

The gods can be seen in the heavens… to varying degrees. They’ve emblazoned their marks upon the firmament, and these marks are not constant.

which I’m sure ties into this in some way, I just can’t see how.

We know a bit more, actually.

Canthans had long lasting astrology which ties into their celestials and they used to determine the ages, foretelling things in the stars – per An Empire Divided. The Sky Scholars of Istan that I linked above also used stars to effectively see the future – and rather accurately, might I add. But all of these events deal with gods, no dragons.

Well, if it’s dragons with minds in general, then it’s Jormag. If it’s dragons through the Dream – which fit with sylvariness – then it’d be Mordremoth. From what we know on the dragons at least.

Honestly, the more I think on it, the more I think that Dhuum is more reasonable. On top of what I mentioned before..

• He may have escaped from his imprisonment, what with him breaking free repeatedly.
• It’d be a way for ArenaNet to introduce the other races’ views on the Six Gods thus making the topic of the gods less human-centric – a chance that was ruined with Orr. Would also act as a means to break the sylvari agnosticism and evolve the race that way. Yet at the same time won’t bring out all Six Gods.
• Dhuum (or his forces) have done this before on a lesser scale.
• Dhuum would likely be very interested in returning to Tyria, and he was part of the Halloween stuff.
• Would allow delving into Godslost Swamp and Reaper’s Gate anomalies.

SoulArcanium.5047:

So in other words, there was nothing special about the Forgotten. As I said, connection to Gods and, thus, access to powerful magic did NOT make them any more special than sylvary are now. Your continuously imply that it took some sort of god like race to remove the dragon corruption from Glint. This is wrong, because in perspective there is NOTHING that makes them more powerful or intelligent than sylvary. (See Scarlet)

I never said “god like race”. Their magic is unique – we don’t know how it is unique, but it is unique. But it is their magic and not their race that is unique. That’s what I was getting at.

And honestly, the same can be said for all five elder races. No modern race has magic akin to those five.

It did however take fully unknown and practically non-existent magic to counter dragon corruption. Something even the sylvari (or any other modern race) do not have access to, yet their bodies are nonetheless immune.

SoulArcanium.5047:

Forgotten were not a counter to Elder Dragon any more than sylvary are now. The most significant thing they did was perform a spell on Glint that more than likely has been a product of their connection to the Gods, or their Facets.

The Forgotten themselves were not immune. They had magic that was. But that’s not the same. The sylvari, on the other hand, are immune – to the point of death instead of corruption, mind you, so it’s not full immunity.

perilisk.1874:

True. But they do go insane. And it changes them, not just mentally, but physically. They’re very mind over matter.

Uh… no. They die from corruption. They don’t go insane. You’re thinking of the one sylvari who was tortured by an Eye of Zhaitan – one who recovers, something impossible from corruption.

perilisk.1874:

If I had to classify them as something based on just those two points (immunity and mutability), it would be demons rather than dragon minions. They almost certainly are born in the Mists (non-Sylvari can travel to the Dream of Dreams, so it’s probably as “real” as the Realm of Torment) and maintain a strong connection to it, despite possessing plant matter. In personality, they remind me a bit of Razah.

As demons, it would sort of explain why they aren’t corrupted — a dragon probably wouldn’t corrupt an elemental or djinn either, it would just consume it.

Uh… Sylvari are born in Tyria, not from the Mists. Their mind is part of the Dream, but it’s just their mind, and nothing has confirmed that they Dream of Dreams is the Mists yet.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

However, there’s one line from What Scarlet Saw that still puzzles me:

“Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.”

The forces that shape us. What could she mean by that? We are told that:

• The forces that shape her were some how unleashed.
• What ever took hold of Ceara, was something she brought in with her.
• Ceara ignored the Pale Tree’s warnings and went her own way.
• The isolation module temporarily liberated her mind, and blocked it off from outside influences.

It could be that Mordremoth is some how involved with injecting Nightmares into the Dream (something Konig already suggested a long time ago), and that she brought something of that Nightmare with her into the isolation chamber. Without the calling of the Pale Tree to suppress this force, it may have taken hold of her mind, and formed an alter ego.

A lot of people take that line to mean “the forces that shape sylvari” and just relate it to the Dream or the origins of the Pale Tree.

But what if she means “the forces that shape this world”? Or even just “the forces that shape us living in the world” (the races)?

Could mean that she’s referring to the Mists, or even the things that make the world what it is – ley lines, and Elder Dragons. Not related to the sylvari from the Pale Tree’s line, but related to the world. The “us” that is everything. Could even be the Six Gods, if the theory that Melandru made the sylvari – and what with humanity’s influence on charr, human, potentially centaur and other race’s history – is true.

I’m betting on the Mists if so. I mean, souls go to the Mists when the body dies right? What if the door that Omadd’s machine “forced open” was that very thing? The Voice of Koda and Havrouns are capable of such things – having one’s mind go into the Mists.

So then… what forces are in the Mists that are trying to get out? Anyone remember the original mention of the future of Halloween? There was mention that the Lunatic Court’s actions would attract “someone else” – with this past Halloween, a lot of folks, myself included, thought Edrick was the “someone else” but what if the original theories – Menzies, Dhuum, Odran, etc. – were closer to truth?

Slap in what came the Wintersday after this hint: "Humanity is doomed if we insist on spending our time with such foolish festivities rather than preparing for the inevitable darkness on the horizon. ":http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Operation:_Crush_Spirits

What if ArenaNet’s decided to return to these? Makes the Dhuum theory more plausible. And Colin said that a small theory got it right… and the Dhuum theory is rather small on this forum at least.

The Ecology of the Charr state that, originally, Grawl were from Ascalon and what’s now the Blood Legion Homelands north of Ascalon. The initial charr conquering of the area resulted in either their enslavement or being pushed into the Shiverpeaks (hence why we have them in two different climates).

Technically speaking… Kryta in GW2 is more akin to Ascalon than it was in GW1, and, well, north of Ascalon was pretty forested/overgrown in GW1… And we also have dwarven ruins up there and in southeastern Ascalon (more specifically under) which hints at an ancient dwarven presence – that fought the charr invasion, even, given the lore of Kathandrax – while the grawl were there.

This being sometime before 100 BE, I should note. We don’t know when before then, but it’s heavily implied that there was but one Khan-Ur in all charr history (well, one proper long lasting one) so it’d be within his lifespan.

We aren’t Orrians either.

Jelle.4623:

I also recall a mention of you, Konig, that states that certain heart NPC’s have interesting dialogue before you complete them. I will look into that as well which probably means rolling a new alt.

There’s a multitude of “triggers” to get varying dialogues.

• Active, recently completed, and non-active nearby events.
• Completed or not completed hearts.
• Races, orders, and sometimes certain biography options, gender, profession, or personal story placement can alter dialogues too.

I would suggest denoting which of those you have when recording, just so you or others can compare with different situations.

Jelle.4623:

@Konig Des Todes, and what about your project? Won’t it overlap mine or will your means of documenting spoken dialogue not involve footage? If it does, it might be best for the both/all three (depending on Plagiarised) of us to stay in touch in order to prioritize things that might be affected.

My project is to go through my characters and talk to all NPCs to record their dialogue boxes, taking note of the above situations when doing so. I’d be screenshotting and intentionally going after NPC boxes – if I see ambient dialogue I’ll record those as well but except for Lion’s Arch I don’t intend to go out of my way for them.

Jelle.4623:

What might be a project for a later date is getting all the recordings, short stories/blog posts etc. on a collective website but then again, we have the wiki for that.

All lore blog posts and short stories are on GW2W. There’s another project – for which my above is just a preparation act for – which will be including such. Won’t speak of it for now but expect it next going public month should things go according to plan.

The oldest Ceara is likely to be is among the last of the Secondborn, but that’s still relatively unlikely. She may be amongst the oldest of the Thirdborn (my own fanon term for all sylvari born after the Secondborn, given that there’s only First- and Secondborn, no other generations have titles given the continuous flow of newborn sylvari).

As for Canach/Ceara being closer than other sylvari – what Bruno said.

perilisk.1874:

And since they would rather not A) die, and have a giant hole where their city used to be, they will probably attempt to intervene. Which is why they have to be exterminated first.

The New Lion’s Arch

Nor would it prevent a younger or alternate Grand High Sovereign from the same possible future from being the culprit – before his death. And modified to be if any race rather than just asuran (as no matter what you’re some super special figure with a omg so whiney mentor from Destiny’s Edge).

moomooo.9357:

Besides that, would people really get upset if one race had such an importance? I mean their stories ingame wouldn’t necessarily change, right?

You’re joking, right? I can’t even count how many people complain that the sylvsri already receive such attention in the game. This would only add IMMENSELY to the complaints and make a special race even more special (especially since doing that contradicts current lore without a lot of either hand waving or altering all those countless dialogues). Their stories would also change completely as they have been presented since before release as being something horn to fight the Elder Dragons. Now all of a sudden they’re dragon minions?

It would be like when Luke is told by Vadar that Vadar is his father. That level of “omg revelation” in the characters.

There’s another, more likely than OP, possibility. She’s said to have “left her mark” on various blueprints in the Rata Sum archives – never explained what that “mark” was but one of them may have been the Infinity Ball schematics. And through that, she got the steam creatures eventually.

A recent thought was the possibility that she was being influenced by the future version of the PC – if one were to twist the Grand High Sovereign’s mention of inventing the Steam creatures as “I manipulated others into making them for me, but I designed them” then it’d fit perfectly well. Would make for a more interesting story.

Fair point, still isn’t “months” though but that’s me nitpicking. :P

And yet they stuck creatures in areas that was befitting the creatures. They didn’t go slapping krait in the shiverpeak areas. That’s at least a little care for “lore accuracy beyond flavor.”

@Darc: Wanting others to create an anti-toxin is not the same as wanting us to destroy the tower. The toxin was prevalent throughout the area, and an anti-toxin’s usage did not require entering the tower (rather, the anti-toxin was needed to enter the tower). As I see it, she didn’t care about the tower’s fate, but introduced it to get the antit-toxin.

@Bruno: Which is pretty much exactly what I said. But it wasn’t abandoned “months before” – she was there and left as we arrived.

@Uruz Six: What the “Anomaly” was is still unknown but it’s highly similar to the Diamond Djinn (air attuned djinn) from Nightfall – even down to using a spear. Even then, one has to remember that the Fractals are “imperfect” copies. One has to wonder: was there a Thaumanova Anomaly in Tyria? If so, where did it go/what happened to it? If not, why one in the Fractal?

And nothing says Scarlet’s battling Mordremoth. And she took the anti-toxin to apparently create a stronger poison, not duplicate the anti-toxin. If she wanted to use anti-toxin, then she’d have made more anti-toxin, and not even bother with making a stronger poison which she did.

There’s no evidence to suggest that the GL survived any rise.

They died during the supposed previous dragon rise; the one that the jotun etc. survived.

Though honestly, there’s a bit of evidence to suggest that the Durmand Priory is wrong with the date of the previous dragon rise (they claim roughly 10,000 to 9,000 BE; other evidence can point to approx. 2,000-1,500).

We do it for famous fossils. At least sometimes.

Like Sue and Lucy. I’m sure there’s more too but not off the top of my head.

On top of what Aaron said (I also suggest going after Plagarised, who’s been – or was? – working on recording all ambient spoken dialogue – I also intend to put my own project to get dialogue (starting with LA) once I get home next week).

It is not a bad idea; regardless of where you put documentation someone would go and put it on the wiki and simply having it accessible means that even if removed from the game, it can be put on the wiki later on.

It is definitely a good idea to record what we can before it gets changed. After all, if the old stuff held important information then it’ll be gone forever – memory of it but no source to back up claims of it or to double check one’s own memory.

As for what is likely to be affected? Lion’s Arch. The entire last instance of this update concludes with “Lion’s Arch will be attacked.” That can mean that any NPC out there in LA will have changed dialogue or could die in lore, thus dialogue lost completely.

As for best medium, well, that’s for you to decide so long as it’s wide inclusive (e.g., you don’t record just one line of dialogue, but the whole thing and where it’s from). The wiki pretty much avoids any kind of raw recordings for dialogue and the like. Don’t bother putting it on the wiki, but instead put it on something else – imgur could work for images, youtube for videos, etc. – then just link to the source elsewhere (like this forum, or on the wiki). If you can’t or don’t know how to put the info on the wiki, someone else will.

We have next to no historical evidence of many species of the previous rise. Who’s to say that the dragons were once a species of a previous cycle – maybe not the last, but perhaps the one before? Or the one before that? Perhaps even the very first appearance of the Elder Dragons, however long ago it was.

1) I haven’t been in the Edge, but I take it as three fractal-like “islands of existences” that were bridged together (perhaps by Scarlet). Kind of like the PvP maps or the Fractals of the Mists – islands of realities that were bridged together for xyz purpose.

2) That area is interesting to me the most from the previews I recall. The Aquatic Fractal is hinted to be a mixture of Ascalonian and Elonian history, Overgrown could easily be ancient Istani (which was rather forested) ruins – issue with that argument is grawl are there, which would place it in Ascalon or Shiverpeaks. What would be interesting would be if Overgrown is akin to the Aquatic Fractal – a mixture of historic Ascalonian and historic Elonian.

3) Actually, ogres are stated to be both ancient and relatives of jotun – it may be that they are an offshoot race, or a cousin race just as old and they survived without the jotun’s knowledge (they have sense fallen anyways – the jotun that is) as the jotun did not (known to us) expand past the Shiverpeaks. Kodan are also hinted to be from the previous rise, given the story of the Great Storm which was a decades-long blizzard (sounds like Jormag’s five year long one as he invaded norn lands before they fled south). Grawl haven’t advanced much in recent years, who’s to say they’re just a really old never-advancing race? Doubtful though.

4) Likely Aetherblades all out. But about the stabilizing comment…

Instability in the Fractals is really a misnomer as Dessa explains in the hub. The instability is, in fact, the existence of creatures – Dessa asks us to wipe them out so she can study them, but being in the Mists they are recreated and the “instability” returns.

What else interests me is the “desert corner” as it was called in development. Likely refers to the Crystal Desert, and it should be noted that the desert “giants” are very similar to the ogres in both shape and the fact they’re often seen with some kind of “pet”.

So I think the Badlands is a copy of the Crystal Desert, during a time when the ogres were higher (iirc, they are also a “fallen” race).

perilisk.1874:

But the other parallels are between Scarlet’s and Abaddon’s armies. They’re sort of clear between Margonites and Aetherblades (seafarers + magic/magictech), and Demons and Watchwork (imprinting her madness on metal rather than mist, as she’s an engineer, not a god). The others are more iffy, Titans and MA (earth and flame), Afflicted and TA (spreading plague/toxin), but you could make the argument at least.

In the OP, you’re referring to Abaddon’s Fall, not his death. Abaddon had no dealings with titans or demons until after his Fall – after he was imprisoned in the Realm of Torment for at least 800 years. The Afflicted weren’t even his intention or doing, but Shiro’s. At least as far as we know. And besides, the demons and titans are, in fact, Dhuum’s creations and army, not Abaddon’s.

Abaddon has Margonites (transformed humans); Menzies has the Shadow Army (dark spirits it seems); Dhuum has demons (be they made from the Mists like torment demons, or made from rituals around tortured spirits like titans)

Also, Aetherblades aren’t seafaring so that comparison to the Margonites kind of falters.

Oh, and the titans weren’t just “earth and flame” they were “tormented spirits that create a body out of the land itself.” The body could be made of fire, stone, plant, ice, or even flesh.

perilisk.1874:

Scarlet already has one surviving Lieutenant who plays the role of assassin. Maybe she needs a scholar, a betrayer, an “accidental” bringer of calamity. Maybe the monsters that plague Kryta from beneath the sea actually answer to him. Maybe he goes from normal looking to dark and spooky. Maybe he gets an artifact connected to the army of flame and earth.

You’re working on pure unsupported suggestions just to try and make the parallels, when your entire argument began with “the two are perfect parallels now!”

And you’re beginning to mix the “Fall of Abaddon” with the “death of Abaddon”.

perilisk.1874:

Demons are more than creatures of the Mists—they are made from the Mists themselves, bits of etheric matter that have gained malignant sentience and power.

Protomatter* Nothing points to the Mists being ether in any form.

Nothing I’ve seen points at that Darc. By all accounts I’ve seen, she wanted the antitoxin, and she easily could have gotten that without leaving the stuff in her lab there (as she got it and left before we got to her lab). Beyond that I’d say she still had a “didn’t care about the tower” mentality.

Though us destroying the tower could be a tool to ensure the krait continue working with her, rather than taking their new “prophets” and fighting her.

Durzlla.6295:

I mean i feel like you’re grasping at straws with this… but it does sorta fit… then again most things like this can fit if you look at it hard enough.

This is my response, pretty much.

And there’s one fatal flaw:

Abaddon was a member of the six who did an action all six agreed with. When others asked to take back the action, Abaddon disagreed and thanks to Margonite fanaticism and the Forgotten waging war on Abaddon’s followers (the Margonites), Abaddon – and later the other gods – fell into the war.

Scarlet was never an ally to the biconics, and they aren’t going to “war” because the others revoked something that Scarlet refused to take something back, nor is their followers/armies/whatever waging war which draws the biconics/Scarlet into the conflict.

Furthermore, Scarlet’s supposedly after the ley lines, while Abaddon was not after the Bloodstone (supposedly).

There are some parallels, but there are even more differences.

I just went to the category and copy pasted then deleted all double-lettered (or non-name) NPCs. Less than 5 minutes.

Those dragons having Orrian sounding names is actually reason for me to believe that they are akin to abominations, rather than having been actual dragons.

I’ve always wondered why Blightghast and those three have unique sounding names – who named them, for example? Especially those last three, given there’s a whole swarm of those dragons there that naming them then and there seems fruitless.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

This said, however, it is possible for Primordus to corrupt a living being. He, for some unknown reason doesn’t “prefer” (for lack of a better word) to, and we haven’t seen such a creature except possibly the Volcanic Fractal with the grawl shaman, but he can. How this looks when he does this would be the said living corrupted victim being encased in stone and the body slowly liquifying.

This is one of the things that still confuses me. Is the transformation of the grawl shaman a corruption by Primordus? He literally becomes a being of pure fire. This could be just the result of his magical ritual as well of course.

It was, in fact, asking about that grawl shaman in relation to Primordus (because it wields a destroyer bow and other reasons) that gave us the statement that Primordus himself (aka in Tyria, as I read it) has not been seen corrupting living beings yet, but he can and it was when they told us how – comparing it to how Icebrood progress in corruption (begin with being coated in ice, then slowly turning into ice itself.

Andele.1306:

We got charr that did the same with titan magic, probably not primo but just reused model like 60% of fractals was. And important unlike all destroyers it counts as a elemental (since it take 10% more if you got the consumable).

That’s not titan magic. They ceased using titan magic 250 years ago – well before they began infusing their own bodies with fire via self-mutilating rituals known as the Baelfire ritual (which heavily implies the ritual is actually a very recent thing – as recent as Gaheron).

The Grawl Shaman was a 100% unique model, made just for the fractal; same as the cat-eared golems, Jade Maw/Jade Maw Tentacles (and everything else in the Solid Oceanic Fractal).

The counting as elemental is a mechanical thing and not necessarily lore value. If we were to take families and armies (Anet’s terminology for two lines of code that determine an NPC’s mechanical species and group affiliation), then the Molten Alliance isn’t of dredge and Flame Legion, but beings that look like dredge and Flame Legion (this was a technical issue they had to ensure that the Molten Alliance did not fight each other civil war style, like normal dredge and Flame Legion would).

Just from looking at http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Asura

Aeronotics Fan
Agent Batanga
Agent Blonks
Agent Raia
Agent Scrybe
Agent Tark
Ambi
Anza
Arcanist Kari
Arcanist Xanf
Archivist Grep
Assistant Marpi
Asura Gate Operator Driks
Bachlag
Captain Shud
Champion Captain Wiley
Clerk Ulva
Councillor Haia
Councillor Ludo
Councillor Yahk
Councillor Zudo
Creator Pixtor
Crusader Blizt
Crusader Gyda
Crusader Slep
Crusader Wula
Crut
Doxa
Duava
Eblo
Ech
Eernst
Engineer Pluank
Explorer Bink
Explorer Laci
Explorer Laria
Explorer Plinx
Explorer Vorb
Flinj
Gelfa
Gliga
Gyra
Havix
High Councillor Flax
Hronk
Hydrone Fan

And that’s just A through H names.

perilisk.1874:

Does Primordus corrupt like the others? I know that his minions tend to be named after other creature types, but I though EOTN established them as just being spawned directly from lava? Though I guess maybe the flaming legion shamans are the counterpoint to that line of thinking?

Usually Destroyers are made from rock and lava. They are spawned in pools of lava (in most cases – “destroyer eggs” from skritt storyline being the one known exception, which unlike the pools of lava which spawn multiple destroyers over time, the eggs spawn just one). They’re named after crabs, harpies, and trolls because destroyers are created in mimicry of living beings – they are not corrupted living beings, though.

This said, however, it is possible for Primordus to corrupt a living being. He, for some unknown reason doesn’t “prefer” (for lack of a better word) to, and we haven’t seen such a creature except possibly the Volcanic Fractal with the grawl shaman, but he can. How this looks when he does this would be the said living corrupted victim being encased in stone and the body slowly liquifying.

If it’s the tent that Aaron refers to, it was always empty. I presumed what Aaron said to be the case – that’s where the scout and heart NPCs there go to sleep for the night.

Andele.1306:

Thats corruption yes, they aint risen, but they are corrupt by zhaitan, something which sylvari dont get to be, they still get to go insane from him and die if they get wounded.

To be corrupted by Zhaitan is to be a risen. They are synonymous. Just like to be corrupted by Jormag is to be an icebrood, and by Kralkatorrik is to be a branded. You cannot be corrupted by Zhaitan and not be a risen. Because “risen” is by definition “something corrupted by Zhaitan.”

You’re right, sylvari can’t be corrupted. But they don’t go insane. That one sylvari wasn’t corrupted. She was tortured. Why? Never explained. But that’s the case. She eventually recovers even, it seems.

And they don’t die just for being wounded. Like anyone else, they can heal from some wounds.

Andele.1306:

Corrupting existing construct beings =/= corrupting beings that are a complex mix of elements.

No, corrupting construct beings is actually simpler, typically.

Andele.1306:

Again you missunderstand the concept of free will, its able to make choices which influence you, it doesnt mean being able to stop breathing but still survive. But ill let glint, eyes of zhaitan, icebrood and every other dragon champ explain that. And no the article just says that they serve him because… well undead would be dead again icebrood would die from frostbite/malnutrition or put into cryosleep and destroyers n branded turn back to their mineral form/into nice statues.

Malafide explained how your percieved notion of free will is wrong. But um… Glint was given free will, and she broke free from Kralkatorrik. Nothing happened to her. They’re magical creatures, dragon minions that is. They don’t follow standard rules like you seem to think. The Risen Chicken in Arah explorable that underwent the same ritual as Glint (with a sylvari right next to it under the ritual’s area of effect too) did not change physically, but broke free from Zhaitan’s will (no longer being murderous and all that).

I’m not sure why you think that a dragon minion breaking from their dragon would mean death…

Andele.1306:

Corrupt living creatures… yes and fossiles, mineralized remains of beings which he uses to make and brood more destroyers are somehow living now and are creatures… right. Also in game action n text speaks more than a thousand words by devs. Or is it that marjory and kas just lied when they said that the frost and flame was under a year time ago, while your nice non-canon says its more than a year ago.

There is absolutely nothing in or out of game which ever mentions fossils in relation to the destroyers. They are always explicitly stated to be made out of rock (if any kind of rock is mentioned, it’s obsidian) and lava/fire.

And lol at saying in-game action and text speaks more than words by developers. Developers wrote and made the action and text in-game. You realize that, right? What they say is the Word of God for the game’s lore. In-game text can and often is the victim of subjective truth (that is, a certain individual’s perceived notion of the truth), and unlike most games is not always objective truth (the actual undeniable truth that isn’t affected by opinions or perceived notions).

Andele.1306:

Yes, with English being my third language and unlike for Germany where its a mandatory second language in education and this being the net im supposed to care about grammar why? Its the context and substance of something you say that matters not if you got your , and ’ correct.

If no one can understand what you write, or if people have to put in more effort than they feel it is worth, then it very much does matter. Also, despite my name, I am not German. German is actually my third language. I am American.

Andele.1306:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Thorn_Wolf
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Storm_Jacaranda
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Uprooted_Malice
And no, you yourself know that doing stuff like helping the pale tree aint in canon for the human story same as helping asura prodigies aint canon for norn.

While I forgot about the Canthan plant called a Thorn Wolf, that is fully irrelevant to the GW2 Thorn Wolf (kitten Anet for shared names). Those Thorn Wolves in Cantha are 100% unrelated to the Pale Tree. Storm Jacaranda is also not related to the Pale Tree or sylvari – I thought the “snake plant” you referred to was the Toxic Hybrid (and here’s a PERFECT example where clear writing is important!), and Uprooted Malice is not a husk, despite similar body structure, and is similarly unrelated to the Pale Tree.

Glint, Claw of Jormag, and Zhaitan’s champions might have been.

Glint is outright known to have once been a non-corrupted living being. But what she was back then before becoming crystalline is unspecified. She may have been a sand drake or some such that was enlarged via corruption and sprouted wings because of it (akin to Mouths of Zhaitan, which are enlarged mutated humans by all appearances).

Claw of Jormag’s limbs are bone in shape, but are at least coated ice. Whether this is ice-shaped-like-bone or actual bone coated in ice akin to Icebrood Colossus (and other old icebrood – the older an icebrood is, the more its body becomes ice until it’s all bone and ice – maybe eventually the bone becomes ice too though). But with its shatterable wings, it may have been something more drake-like too, a wingless giant lizard. Again, hard to to tell.

Zhaitan’s dragon-shaped champions could be risen dragons, or something more akin to the abominations which is a bunch of sewn together corpses. Again, hard to tell and we have no indication of either.

The Great Destroyer is likely to have been like all other Destroyers – mimicries of something made out of stone and lava, never an actual living being. The Great Destroyer then could have been made to mimic any of the Elder Dragons (original description for them was to be “serpentine while still very draconic” and the long neck/tail would fit that description) or their dragon-shaped champions.

Yeah, it’s an interesting question.

The ritual does not affect the body, so it wouldn’t turn into a pile of rubble. All it does is grant the subject free will – in of itself, one would think it wouldn’t turn a dragon minion “good”. If Glint’s claim for becoming good holds any weight from Edge of Destiny, for her she had to both undergo the ritual and read the minds of those she killed. Without the latter, she may have remained a champion of Kralkatorrik, just not mentally enslaved.

But being made out of stone, destroyers appear to be completely mindless killing machines. Can something without thought have free will? Will it also gain thought? Maybe it’ll just become docile – a living statue on fire that has no drive.

@Perilisk: Well, Warden Illyira (or w/e her name is) was standing with chicken in hand. So yes, she was put under the ritual too.

BrunoBRS.5178:

“before my awakening”. her dream was full of nightmare, then she woke up on the grove and felt out of place. she wasn’t born straight from nightmare, her dream was just corrupted. there’s a difference.

… That argument makes less sense then a strawman argument.

Her dream was full of nightmares would mean that she’s experienced nothing but nightmare which in turn would mean that she awoke touched by Nightmare, would which in turn mean that she awoke from nightmare.

If all she had to come from was Nightmare when she awoke, then she awoke from Nightmare.

Her Dream being corrupted means that she was born from Nightmare. There is not a difference.

Uruz Six.6594:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

My bet is that it is Mordremoth, and he’s using the Dream somehow – no I don’t support the theory that sylvari are his minions because the Dream is not unique to sylvari – to spread the Nightmare and though Scarlet isn’t of the Nightmare Court, I think she’s influenced by the Nightmare – but on a more direct level.

Going against the Konig, but here goes…

That would require a dragon being able to breach into a metaphysical location like the Dream, and so far we haven’t quite seen them capable of doing so. I don’t recall seeing any dragon minions within the Mists, but I could be wrong. If we were to believe that the Dream is a part of Mordremoth, then that goes into the question of just why a jungle dragon would have something like that, and how the sylvari are able to not only access it but believe they draw their Wyld Hunts from it.

So I’m not entirely convinced its Mordremoth or any of the other dragons. The big question is ‘what exactly is the Dream’. A part of Mordremoth? A part of the Mists? Something else entirely?

Removed the spoiler tags, as I don’t think they’re necessary. Two things thought:

• Firstly, we have multiple cases of Jormag’s minions in and/or coming from the Mists. The norn storyline “Defend the Mists” deals entirely with this, the Frozen Portal in Drakkar Spurs includes this, as do the Portals to the Mists in The Frozen Maw meta and even the Snowblind Fractal (weak argument in the last one).
• Secondly, as I said, the Dream seems to be tied to the location and two beings of strong magic (Pale Tree and White Stag) are part of the Dream while others of one of the two’s kinds (Malyck’s Tree) seems to lack the Dream. Mordremoth has been said to be in the Maguuma or at least related to it, indicating a possibility that Mordremoth could have a tie to the Dream simply due to being 1) highly magical and 2) in the Maguuma.
  *For the record, I do not believe the Dream is part of Mordremoth in any way; rather, I think the Dream is akin to the Mists if not part of it. On a side, given A Light in the Darkness, the Dream may not be solely linked to the Maguuma – Zhaitan’s presence near a place where the Dream has a physical representation of may be why so many Wyld Hunts deal with Zhaitan and its minions (a threat to the Dream due to proximity) compared to Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik. In turn, I think Mordremoth and/or Zhaitan may simply have a coincidental link to the Dream due to their physical location and the fact that, being Elder Dragons, they are highly magical. I believe the two are the requirements for being “half in the Dream, half in reality” like the Pale Tree and White Stag.

It’s conjecture, but still possible.

DarcShriek.5829:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

This just in: Pale Tree is a futa.

It’s a tax?

Learn your east asian culture terminology. ;P

This just in: Pale Tree is a futa.

I don’t think the Shatterer was any kind of living being. Most Branded – especially those obviously a living being – has a bright purple and most importantly solid shine beneath their gray skin. The Shatterer, however, is transparent with his body. He is nothing but black rock (like the Dragonbrand itself) and purple translucent air/lightning. He appears to be akin to the Dragonspawn from Edge of Destiny – a mere construct of land and air.

This being said, both Glint and her “babies” would be made of crystal, not flesh and blood. Dragon minions aren’t capable of traditional birthing, and as a champion Glint could make more champions.

Blurk.6231:

I am pretty sure it is not one of Glint’s babies. I believe it was said somewhere that the Shatterer is purely made from the branded soil and rocks and Glint was an actual dragon but I cannot provide a source on that. Can someone confirm this or am I wrong?

Neither was, as far as I know, outright stated. You may be thinking of one of my posts – as I know I said the same as now about the Shatterer before – or one of Thalador’s as he theorizes given Arah dialogue that Glint was a living dragon before corruption (Arah dialogue more or less confirms that Glint was a living being).

BrotherBelial.3094:

So then, the question is where are Glints Children? Fighting Promordus? Maybe well get to ride them at some point in an epic battle. That’s if they are not all dead.

Common theory is being with the Zephyrites. But other than their ties to the Brotherhood of the Dragon (whom were protecting Glint’s baby) there’s no evidence.

• Caladbolg, not Saladbolg.
• Jormag, not Jorlag.

The fact you used those terms is outright proof to me that you’re trolling. In fact, I recall you making similar insults arguing complete falsities as canon and, iirc, weren’t you the one who was claiming my corrections to your posts to be my “head-cannon”?

But I’ll bite and respond in order. Maybe with a full set of sources, you’ll gain some shine of proper intelligence rather than believed such behind those pupils of yours – though I doubt such, I doubt you even read what I quoted and linked before.

• Freezing flesh also destroys its structure, actually. But that’s besides the point. Jormag’s corruption is MAGICAL; physics won’t always work – same for Primordus. How he corrupts living beings is by encasing in stone and melting down the body, turning it magically into lava (no matter how hot you heat it, flesh won’t become lava). Source
• For Zhaitan. See Kellach and Necromancer Rissa for starters. But we see Zhaitan’s corruption affect plants – not just in Orr itself all over, but also in Sparkfly Fen. Specifically this heart where you deal with Corrupted Stumps – that is, tree stumps corrupted by Zhaitan’s magic. So we have 2 examples of Zhaitan corrupting living beings, and 2 examples of Zhaitan corrupting plants.
• “ofc primo can turn embers and jorlag ice and probably kralky the earth elementals because they already use the same type of magic, it all kinda retuns to the point of you not understanding how dragons get their servants.” – Except that they can corrupt stuff not of their element (otherwise they’d be unable to corrupt flesh and the like). I do understand – far more than you as you constantly prove to anyone reading these silly posts of yours – about draconic corruption.
• “Tablet aint magic, plant is, plant learns tablet instead of dragon orders, kapish?” And this shows that you don’t understand dragon corruption. I linked in my previous post statements that dragon minions do not have free will. No free will means that dragon minions cannot “learn tablet instead of dragon orders”. So – kapish?
• If you read the link I provided, you would have seen this wording: “The Great Destroyer did not seem to corrupt living creatures as opposed to create mockeries out of stone and magma, while Kralkatorrik definitely did.” In other words: where Kralkatorrik corrupts creatures, Primordus doesn’t but instead creates mockeries. Bones – or fossils – would be the same as corrupting a (dead) creature. Sure, there may be fossils included but destroyers are far from simply “corrupted fossils”.
• It’s funny. You say I’m not smart enough to have free will – but I’m choosing to respond to you. And unlike you, I don’t misspell or have terrible grammar and punctuation. Have you never heard of an apostrophe?
• Oakhearts existed before the Pale Tree could produce anything. And druids were humans (Krytan, specifically) who gave up flesh to become more attuned with the Maguuma Jungle. Thorn wolves, husks, and “snake plants” did not, however, exist before. The transformation into the oakhearts and fern hounds is magic that can be used on non-sylvari, no different than mesmer illusions which are used throughout the human personal story and in many hearts all over the continent.

Jormag attempted to attack Lion’s Arch. Whether it was direct or indirect isn’t clear, but a Son of Svanir intended to use the Sanguinary Blade to lead an army of icebrood onto Lion’s Arch during the Durmand Priory storyline.

In this case, I think it’d be a serpent-looking plant race…

Wait a minute…

In a bit more serious though, if it was a recreation of an extinct race then perhaps the “true form” of sylvari is akin to that? I doubt it though.

Obviously we don’t have nearly enough information to really be sure but…

I doubt it. They consume magic – and as we’ve seen, they consume it mainly from objects and beings. They don’t just go inhaling and in goes magic – as best we can tell.

If their presence doesn’t alter the movement of magic, then it wouldn’t affect the ley lines. And it seems to me given what we know is that they don’t affect the movement of magic – they take stationary magic (mainly) and consume it.

Honestly, we cannot even tell if magic from the ley lines even can be consumed by the Elder Dragons.

But even then keep in mind that all the magic was put into the Bloodstone at one point, which would have left the ley lines empty, and more importantly: the dragons haven’t really moved about since falling asleep. If the ley lines were emptied before they went to sleep, then they wouldn’t be camping on the biggest ley lines.

Though one could say Jormag, Primordus, and Kralkatorrik could be heading to ley lines – unlike Zhaitan, they’re moving about a it more than on a mere city of magical energy. Though if it’s all the magical artifacts in Arah and Orr that kept Zhaitan in place, then Primordus is likely camping out in the six great asuran cities; and Kralkatorrik probably around, well… there’s a lot of magical places in the Crystal Desert and the Desolation.

I don’t think the ley lines can really be related to the Elder Dragons. Ley lines from how I understand it in this update not “a bunch of magic” but rather “how magic moves.” Thus, unless what makes it move in certain ways gets affected, the ley lines will remain stable (but not static – just consistent) regardless of the amount of magic moving through. Its related to ocean or weather currents, which is determined more by the landscape than the things on/in it. Though since magic is not physical I don’t think they’d be affected by landscape, but perhaps something else… Nonetheless though, I don’t think the amount would affect the direction of the flow (thus the ley lines).

Anyone else think that Anet should have given them a different name? ley lines are typically viewed as stationary… well, lines. Not currents – which are more flexing.

Andele.1306:

Destroyers major part fossils and spawns of/from/based on the brood given by lava mixed fossils, confirmation trough skritt plot and tengu possible.

…..

No. Just no. You’re wrong. Do your research some more. I presume by “skritt plot” you’re referring specifically to the Destroyer Queen. That’s not a corrupted fossil, not even a corrupted living being. We have outright developer confirmation that destroyers are creations of mockery of living beings from rock and lava. Here is but one.

Andele.1306:

Both parts are solved early on in sylvari zones, the pale tree can and does create both the oakheart like beings (dont care for specific name its the same model they use for all even the clockheart which was cyborged by scarlet, call em all oakhearts because its the staple champ in queensdale) and husks are shown to be directly related to sylvari growth (as even stated by you) so saying they aint related to the pale tree is same as saying that grapevines arent grapes because of how they are created.

No. You’re wrong. The Pale Tree only creates sylvari and sylvan hounds (aka fern hounds). Not oakhearts, not mosshearts, not willowhearts, not pinesouls. She doesn’t make any of them. They were around even in GW1 – go ahead, look for yourself. And the Pale Tree wasn’t making anything back then.

There is nothing to even hint that they came from the Pale Tree! NOTHING in the game implies such!

You. Are. Wrong.

And husks are not related to sylvari growth. I just said that sylvari are KILLED to make a husk. It’s basically the same thing as a Risen Abomination, which is a bunch of corpses sown together – husks are seemingly dead plants put together.

Andele.1306:

All of this is like basic education, please stop before it shows up that you didnt finish kindergarten.

I could say the same to you.

Andele.1306:

You dont have to consume magic like the mouth of zhaitan to be based on some of its domains/it being part of you… you know how humans can use the blessings of their gods and how icebrood can remove temperature from parts of space to freeze stuff.

Being based on or it being a part of you is not the same as consuming magic.

Andele.1306:

its kinda the entire reason why we managed to prevent primo from waking up because we fed him the magic back that the great destroyer was costing him (since we do know that dragon champions hold part of a elder dragons magic, which like every form of energy cannot be destroyed and returns to its original status).

Killing a champion doesn’t send the magic back. See this – Glint’s body kept the magic, and slowly released it into the world.

Andele.1306:

No, personal story, actually bother to listen to it, sylvari influenced by zhaitan go mad from it/lose their sentience (tortured one was because zhai eye wanted to know the research in the camp at the heart location in the open world), they die by plain mortal wounds.

That’s not corruption. Why don’t you listen to the personal story. Here, I’ll quote you:

Tegwen: Because sylvari are immune to the curse of undeath, we’ve been given this dangerous mission. If we fail, we won’t rise again.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marching_Orders

Andele.1306:

And yes they like for example elementals are immune to zhaitans influence, since they dont leave corpses… and cannot be turned to ice or lava because they are plants… biology 101.

Are you a kittening idiot? Excuse my language. But 1) plants leave corpses. 2) Plants can be frozen. 3) Flesh cannot be turned directly into ice or lava, biology 101 has no influence because it’s a magical transformation. and 4) Icebrood Elemental

Andele.1306:

Also nature vs nurture. It takes a computer (a construct of human engineering) a mere second to recognize patters if you correctly imput data, but with a adaptive script and continuous feedback you can create the same pattern recognition over time… so yes the tablet aint magical on a magic of the mists level but on a gene meme level… social patterns and gene memes 101.

This makes absolutely no sense. Are you now just spouting mumbo jumbo?

The Tablet isn’t magical on ANY scale.

Andele.1306:

And no free will is the amount if intellect required to know how much you depend on others, to know that you exist and what choices you can/cant make, freedom is a different thing, by all accounts risen are slaves of the respective local champion of zhaitan, but the same thing applies to sylvari and the pale tree, difference is that disobeying zhaitan/his champs is impossible because they are physically unable to (you know being dead and kept alive by him) and disobeying the pale tree means that your connection to it is lost (and no the nightmare court are just as obedient to PT as other syvlari are since the nightmare is part of the dream which is the way the tree is connected to sylvari) which seems to have no damaging effect on the sylvari except that they act less naive.
Saying that any minion of a ED doesnt have relatively free will is like saying that a human doesnt have free will because you cant just stop breathing and live on.

Having free will does require intelligence, yes, but it’s not the same thing as intelligence. But… the Nightmare Court are outright disobeying the Pale Tree. In fact, the Soundless are outright disobeying the Dream. So your argument fails there.

And I’m not the one who doesn’t say dragon minions don’t have free will. The game does:

Warden Illyra: Yes. Yes! Look at these runes. The Forgotten were able to remove Kralkatorrik’s control over Glint.
Warden Illyra: Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_%28explorable%29#Forgotten

Glint, when made a dragon minion of Kralkatorrik, lost her free will. The Forgoten ritual gave it back.

I just re-read the prologue (ty pdfs on the internet). And I see NOTHING that says she poisoned her in the prologue, but I presume you mean this paragraph:

But Faolain rose in her path and set her hand on Caithe’s chest. The touch of her palm blazed like fire. Then a different sort of heat bloomed across Caithe’s chest. She pulled back to see the farmer’s throat fountaining, severed by Faolain’s dagger.

The only indication of a poisoning is “a different sort of heat bloomed across Caithe’s chest” but that isn’t outright poison.

Edit: Read later, and it gets revealed that it did leave a mark on Caithe where she was touched. BLEH. It’s been ages since I read the novel and that was one of the least interesting parts.

Though the nature of the poison is left unexplained and Caithe does say this:

“As I fight the Nightmare, the poison spreads. I must join her, or die.”

Which makes it sound like the poison and Nightmare are akin. And still, Faolain taking in the poison turns her arm to rot, and the Nightmare was encountered in Orr.

So one small bit was mistaken. That doesn’t really make it “awfully incorrect” really – though I’m sure you’d nitpick otherwise. Does make the Jora comparison false though.

Kasmeer Maede: Did you hear that? I think you made it mad.
Marjory Delaqua: This is going to sound crazy, but what if it “knows” what we just did? What if it “knows” what are we’re about to do?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Nightmare_Ends

And it actually does make noises. First when the barrier falls, and then again when you pump it full of anti-toxin. It cries out in pain.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

-snip-

Konig, you mentioned Tequatl, who is of course Zhaitan’s champion. Could it be possible that it is in fact Zhaitan whispering into Scarlet’s mind? He is the undead dragon. Maybe killing him only made him stronger? This would path the way for a revised and much better Zhaitan battle. (fingers crossed)

Definitely. After all, if memory serves me right, Faolain and Caithe both first encountered the Nightmare in Orr. Caithe turned away and resisted the Nightmare, Faolain embraced it.

Interestingly: like when Jora resisted Drakkar’s corruption when Svanir embraced it, and Jora was “cursed” and unable to turn into Bear Form, after encountering the Nightmare Caithe was poisoned, slowly dying because she was resisting it – it was only because Faolain took that poison into her self that Caithe lived, and she took it in as rot. Though she got better it seems, per TA story.

Except that when there’s no storytelling, they don’t give a bone.

See the question on the Wizard’s Towers from the Lore Q&A Dolyak Express. They gave us what we knew on the Krytan one, said there’s no connection between that and the Ascalonian one, and said “well, who knows what’s going on with the Ascalonian one” rather than making some obscure “hey, something could be happening” they just said “we have nothing for it atm.”

They did the same for Cantha since before release. When asked they just go “what’s in the Movement/in-game is all we got done on it.” No bone. No cryptic message. Just flat out “we didn’t think of it yet.”

Scott, Jeff, and Angel all do this. Not sure off the top of my head if Ree does.

Andele.1306:

Ok wording might be off but still, lets look at the asura personal story… oh look asura got their mind fused into golems! Lets look back a bit, tell me how again did Snaff learn about elder dragons, it couldnt be by placing his mind into that of one of them, or even 250 years before that how did the margonites/lil ossa girl get to their full demon forms, its not like abbadon could have used his influence to transform and bend them to his will, nooo…

Okay, you’re talking about three different things here.

The Dynamics asura storyline is a case of using one’s mind to control a golem which stems in the same direction as Inquest research of infusing a golem with a soul as its energy source. It didn’t fuse with the golem, but instead the issue was that the AI programming of the golem was threatening to mix in with the pilot’s own mind because said pilot was mentally controlling the AI.

Snaff diving into Kralkatorrik’s mind was a form of mind reading, a common mesmer act and nothing like Abaddon or what it seems the Toxic Hybrid is (as a sylvari mind going into a krait body wouldn’t make the krait body plant-like; nor would vice versa make the sylvari body krait-shaped).

Abaddon did not alter one’s mind nor did he cause any form of fusion. What he did was outright turn human beings’ bodies into etheric demonic beings – somewhat similar to dragon corruption except that it didn’t seem to alter their mentality, unlike dragon corruption.

None of this seems to be what the Hyrbid is. The first two wouldn’t alter a body, the latter was only capable because Abaddon was a god. That’s not something even Scarlet could work on par to.

ElysianEternity.6215:

Yeah and the bolded part outright says the prophets were invented by the Oratuss.
To me the context is that this was stated to further defuse the potential association to rl religions by saying “btw their prophets aren’t even real but none of them knows so don’t worry.”

Saying that would actually, arguably, make it more like rl religions. Becuase honestly, who can prove their highest religious figures (what their “Prophets” are) were really? Sure you can prove rl prophets were, but could you what they’re prophets of? Nope.

So it sounds counter-productive to me.

ElysianEternity.6215:

Trust me, I’d really love it if there actually were Krait prophets (Outside of Koda it feels atm like only some of the player races are allowed anything on the level of God-like entities… Zintl is what.) but to me the sentence in bold is pretty clear. I wished they didn’t add it because IMO an artist or writer shouldn’t have to restrict themselves because someone might get upset. Saying “Krait religion =/= rl religion” should suffice. But a company wanting to ensure their jacket’s clean is understandable and I can’t really blame them.

Even if that was the case, it seems to have been retconned. Because the Oratuss, when alone, spouts out about the prophets being real.