Guild Wars 2

Aveinda.9260:

I need to put all these pictures in one place before i go mad. Anyone remember this from a post by that_shaman? : https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/81524/pOZ1Dea.png

now look at this one: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Primordus.jpg

now back to this: https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/132083/dragonpainting.jpg

anyone else see the similarities, or am I going mad…

The three look nothing alike. Well, possibly the first and third. But Primordus looks nothing like either.

Jaken.6801:

However, i called it the supposed Primordus, because what we were seing there was pretty small. (i do not know if it was confirmed that this is indeed The Primordus)

It was confirmed – albeit indirectly. We confirmed that the asura were drawing power from Primordus, and it was that “statue” that they were drawing from.

Primordus is actually rather large-in game. About the size of Abaddon, I think – and that’s just what we see. It’s hard to tell from the pictures because they’re from so far away, but those destroyers? They’re larger than humans easily. And it would make sense for Primordus to be small compared to other Elder Dragons – given that he lives underground and all.

Jaken.6801:

In any case, the painting has a head which is actually more similiar to Tequattle.

Nah. The head is more like a t-rex to be honest, rather than any dragon in-game. If I had to point to any dragon’s head we’ve seen – even the frontal-only concept art of Kralkatorrik – I would say it is closest to the Claw of Jormag (but not Jormag based on the Dragon Totems of the Sons of Svanir).

It is way too different from Tequatl though, for sure.

Jaken.6801:

btw.: i want to see the Great Destroyer again. Also where are my Disks of Death.

I agree. Either would be far superior to the “Megadestroyer” – at least in name. What a silly name.

Serromus Jakta.3987:

That dragon painting looks similar to this concept art. I think perhaps that this dragon may be Mordremoth, look at the head patterns of both pictures, they both have these wavy figure patterns on their heads,it makes sense somehow.

That concept art is from 2007 and was confirmed to have been scrapped along with others revealed at the same time by Kekai Kotaki. All of the dragons looked a bit like that then.

ThiBash.5634:

That goes for everything we see. From the watchknights to the airships, she was brilliant enough to have made them herself. Why is this one particular item not something she can steal, but should have made herself?

All of her stealing-projects were of state of the art technologies. The airships? Brand new in the world. The holograms? Again, brand new technology (the corporeality of it is that is). The Watchknights? Marvel feat of engineering.

Plus, she stole the Watchknights on a whim. Same can likely go for the holograms.

The injector is such a minor thing, on the other hand. It’s no marvel by any means. The anti-toxin, however…

zamalek.2154:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Not seeing what you are. I don’t think. Care to point out?

I have beautifully and carefully outlined it on the map. Maybe these are the actual ley lines (God doesn’t work with straight lines)?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The thumpers’ purpose is still unknown. The three-headed wurm and its ilk in the new meta event was an unintended side-effect.

From the events on Lornars Pass it would seem that they are for drawing power for her various weapons (unless I am completely missing something thumpers = power nodes).

Not seeing any discoloration on the original image at where you drew lines.

And the thumpers are officially called “Energy Probes” now. What do probes do? They search, record, and allow automatic observation depending on how advanced they are. It is more likely she’s using them to search for something rather than using them to draw power – something because of the name.

Plus there seems to be no tie between the probes and the Marionette. The Marionette is powered by the Twisted Clockwork that are being recalled from her invasion events, not the probes.

Jaken.6801:

On the mighty drill machine.
I do not know. It does look really short, doesn`t it?
I do not think Scarlet can go deep with that, even if it is only a shematic.
Even if she lands her topspin off doom and drills down the crust, that size would not be ablt to very far. maybe 25m – 30m max.
That is not very far.

You forget.

The center of the drill has a portal – a portal where the Marionette comes from, and where the drill can be sent through. Continuously as long as the other side of the portal is open. What if it opens to an open sky? Then the drill can be as long as she wants it to be. She is said to have an interest in the Mists – maybe that’s where the portal leads from and is where the Marionette is landing from.

And if she still need to extend it? Stop drilling an add an attachment. If such would work (I see no reason why).

Requiem.8769:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Wow Requiem. That’s so full of theories stated as facts I don’t know how you got it all like that.

*Theories stated as theories. Nothing more. You’d have to be incredibly presumptuous to imply otherwise.

You never stated them to be theory, and the way you presented them, such as “So, the thumpers are drawing something, or some-things, from underground, and coalescing at Lion’s Arch.”, are stated as if they are facts. They are statements, not questions; they are not “possibles” there is nothing in your post other than the two questions of “why four X’s?” and “What is she summoning?” to imply that you posted anything other than fact.

And no, not presumptuous. You’d have to be unknowing of the lore – which given this is all about the new stuff, would include a lot of people – to believe that you’re stating facts. Because you gave no indication – even if you thought you did, you didn’t – that they were anything but fact statements.

Requiem.8769:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

• The thumpers’ purpose is still unknown. The three-headed wurm and its ilk in the new meta event was an unintended side-effect.
• I’m not seeing a creature being pointed at by the drill.
• Her motive is stated to be unknown still, actually. Or was stated to be in the “things to come” update back after Wintersday was released.
• The Thaumanova Reactor was not to use energy, per se, but study it. And if it is intended to be a precursor of using the same energy as the Marionette… then the Marionette is using dragon energy (or would it be chaos energy? Thaumanova used both).
• NOTHING says that Tequatl “shifted alliances”. In fact, all indication states that dragon minions are quite incapable of doing such – and even after Zhaitan’s death, his minions still hold fanatical devotion to Zhaitan (as seen in Arah explorable mode).

- Unintended side-effect… goodness, it’s almost as if you agree with me!
- Question marks do serve a function.
- “So much makes sense now. The Pale Tree, the Nightmare Court, Caithe and Faolain…it’s all part of a grand design. But I see the flaws in that design. My people don’t have to take what we’re given, or be what we were “born to be.” No people do. We can change the rules…well, I can. And I’m going to.”"
Very much like Milton’s Satan- she wants to bring down the current, oppressive order – and with that, presumably, free the Sylvari.
-Nuclear reactors don’t merely study energy, they use it. Likewise, the goal of the Thaumanova reactor would likely be to harness it.
I therefore theorize that Scarlet intends to use dragon energy to fuel the explosion of her Marionette, having used her clockwork minions to create thumpers that draw upon this energy.
-I don’t know what happened to Tequatl, but we do know it has something to do with the Living Story. Beyond Scarlet, there has been no living story. Create another connection if you like, this is merely a proposal.

• You made it sound, in your post, as if the thumpers’ purpose was “summoning” those wurms. Particularly with the latter " 2. What is she summoning?"
• There was no question mark there. Just " Note also the drill, again pointing to an underground creature."
• “Looking into 2014 and back on the plot of the main story of 2013, many questions remain: why did Scarlet brings these groups together? What did she see when she looked into the eternal alchemy, and how did it change her? What is she trying to accomplish? Is she just nuts, or is there something far more sinister going on? How do each of these moments through 2013 tie together?” https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/recap-the-living-world-of-guild-wars-2/ Her line in the short story really does seem to give her a goal, a motive. But according Colin, who links said short story in the post I’ve quoted, we do not know what she’s trying to accomplish (aka her goal, her motive).
• Reactors are more for producing energy. But what I’m referring to is the lab that was situated at Thaumanova. Keep in mind, Thaumanova was more than a mere reactor or an inquest lab. It was an asuran city. The reactor itself was used to power the city – but the reactor and the lab’s experiments are two different things – originally. The inquest, however, foolishly mixed them. The reactor was likely built before any chaos magic or dragon energy was being studied.
• Then why did you state it as if it were fact that Tequatl “switched sides” – something, I might add, is thusfar impossible as observed. Multiple corruptions is possible but those seem to become rampant and their ties to Elder Dragons unknown.

On the topic if new/wider spread species and the Jungle Wurm…

The Jungle Wurm looks much different than the other wurms truth be told. It looks more like a living plant than the other wurms which look like actual animals. The maw of the Jungle Wurm, the body, the thorns. It all looks very plant-like to me – the other wurms lack this design completely and look more like traditional GW wurms with a new head design.

I am a bit disappointed. The answers on the asura, centaur, and ogre were the only ones worthwhile, IMHO. And the ones on development, in the “behind the scenes” feel. But… that wasn’t lore.

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

One thing you will have to note is that questions were collected from four communities on the English, German, French, and Spanish forums. There were so many more questions than we could possibly answer. If we had our team answer all of them, they would not have time to work on the game and create the very lore that you’re currently playing. We tried to get a good spread of questions from each community.

No question about it, but honestly half of the questions answered felt like they weren’t really answers – and the two answered by Bobby were more about design and less about the lore itself.

It feels like they went out of their way to avoid the juicy questions! Only one truly juicy one (in response) was given. Unless we count the development one(s – kinda) answered by Bobby.

Though the others are nice to have, they’re not as nice to have as others would have been. Like the question on the Six Gods? We had known that question’s answered since 2009. It feels like a wasted answer completely, even if we received a bit more exposition into the answer (Abaddon’s fall and replacement being something that kept the gods responding to Tyria). And though I listed it as nice, since i hadn’t seen it before, the asura one was outright said to be a repeated answer. :/

I hope at he very least this questionnaire has shown the story writers what topics we, the community, want to find out about more.

Regina, should you – or any other dev for that matter – return to this thread, I have a request:

Please use the questions for a future news or forum post when the respective folks have some free/slowed down time in the future. That way, we can get a bit more out of what felt an overall lackluster Q&A.

Xukavi.4320:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t the Sylvari learn from the teachings of the Ventari Tablet? In which case, morality comes from the teachings but is spread by the Dream of Dreams. You’re correct that they’re not tied to the Sylvari race as a whole, Malyck did lack the dream.

Edit: According to the information in game on the Ventari tablet, it states that it serves as a moral foundation for the Sylvari

I was more meaning the fact how the Dream are “free to chose” their moral standing, while the Nightmare are forced into a moral standing. Even then, most Dreamers are in fact much kinder than Soundless or Malyck.

Not going to respond to the rest because quite frankly, I am sick and tired of “sylvari are dragon minions!!!”

Blaithnat showed up for all my characters… None who’ve reached Victory or Death/The Source of Orr had done Close the Eye – they all did Through the Looking Glass. I explicitly remember that dialogue.

The tower(s) were defensive structures to protect the plant – and the offshoots. It was the main part of the events during the Tower of Nightmares release, where everyone said “these explosives/mortars/golem can take out those weaker offshoot’s defenses, but it cannot penetrate the giant tower’s” more or less.

It’s defense, not stability. And in the case of the main tower, general housing as well.

They remember still – in Wintersday, be it Thunder Ridge Camp or The Dead End they all acted kindly to your presence. In the instance after the Marionette, they all again – including Taimi for your help with Marionette – reacted with recognition to you. Especially Kasmeer, who said something along the lines of “I don’t like talking about it, but since it’s you it’s alright” (in the dialogue tree box, not the voiced stuff).

The only time they don’t recognize you was really during the Queen’s Jubilee – Braham and Rox didn’t acknowledge knowing you in the open world (but did in instances) even if you did Flame and Frost. This was a confirmed, and never fixed, bug though.

DarcShriek.5829:

No one would argue that Svanir is the same entity as Jormag, why would I argue that the pale tree is the same entity as Mordremoth? Where have I argue that the pale tree is the same entity as Mordremoth?

Why was the Pale Tree seed guarded? Obviously someone or something didn’t want them discovered too early. Why?

The speculation is valid and doesn’t need your approval.

Do you even bloody kitten know what the kitten I was responding to when you criticized my post!?

Allow me to present it to you:

Tyrantis.8640:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tyrantis.8640:

Kralkatorrik (crystal and Aetherblade tech/magic)
Mordremoth the Jungle Dragon who seems to birth the Sylvaris directly. Wurms and Nightmare Court
Primordus the fire dragon. Flame Legion, Destroyers, Fire, Underground.

Nothing relates Kralkatorrik – who is not some air dragon – to the Aetherblades. Nothing truly indicates beyond player no-support fascination that Mordremoth has “birth the sylvari directly”. And there is no longer a tie between Primordus and the Flame Legion – as far as we know (I theorized there may be, with the Baelfire ritual, but there’s really nothing to seriously support such).

Well one of the hints was thumpers are the same as footsteps drive worms to the top. That would make it seem intentional.

*There are plenty of hints that the Pale Tree might be a sleeping dragon. Who else would the Jungle Dragon be? Pale tree is likely a fallen champ or Mordemoth themselves. *

The Flame legion worshiped (past tense) as you say, but they still adore the power of fire. Even if they stopped worshiping "The Great Destroyer: it is likely that their magic exists because of Primordus whether they are tapping directly or indirectly.

Kralkatorrik I just threw that out there. There is no proof at all of that.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/2-Dragons-Primordus-Mordremoth/first#post3535821

Your second post in the thread, which quotes my immediate (no quoting) response to above post:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It was outright stated – in the same articles that compared them to footsteps – that it was an unintended side-effect. After all, I don’t think the intention of footsteps is to drive worms to the top. :P

The Pale Tree is a tree that was planted between 1072 and 1078 AE. The Elder Dragons were all around in 10,000 BE. It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the Pale Tree to be Mordremoth. And no, there is in fact zero evidence to support to claim that the Pale Tree is a champion of Mordremoth – fallen or not. There is evidence to support the Nightmare being tied to Mordremoth though, but not the Pale Tree. The best you can argue is by extension of the Nightmare (and thus Nightmare Court) possibly being tied to Mordremoth. But the Nightmare Court are also anti-Elde Dragon, so they most likely wouldn’t know of any influence if such exists. And it is also physically impossible for the Pale Tree to be a “fallen” champion because no purifying magic – something that is incredibly rare – was used on her in her upbringing. People often say “the Ventari Tablets did it just like Glint was broke from Kralkatorrik!” but these people forget two very important facts: 1) The tablet is not magical. It’s just a tablet. 2) Glint did not break free on her own accord, she was forced to undergo a ritual by the Forgotten, the ritual having been lost until after Zhaitan’s death. So no, it just isn’t possible for the Pale Tree to be tied to Mordremoth. And if ArenaNet alters their lore to make it so then they did an asspull just to satisfy players who want to play the bad guy (something they initially said they wouldn’t ever do).

Please tell me how the tablets had any affect on the pale tree if no magic is involved.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/2-Dragons-Primordus-Mordremoth/first#post3536184

You were DIRECTLY responding to a post of mine, which in turn was responding DIRECTLY to the claim that the Pale Tree – and I quote – “might be a sleeping dragon. Who else would the Jungle Dragon be? Pale tree is likely a fallen champ or Mordemoth themselves.”

So who would say that the Pale Tree is Mordremoth? The person I was responding to, which was the response you first responded to.

If you’re going to enter an argument, you should know both sides. Because now we’ve been arguing about jack and kitten.

I’m sorry if I seem a bit hostile but come on! I KNOW you read the posts I was responding to – you responded to it yourself! Just above your first response to me!

Yes, I know of Blaithnat and that is exactly what the wiki says. But I don’t recall anything stating that the Mad Prisoner is Blaithnat. Nor did I find such on the wiki.

I have not seem them posted. No new post by CC either.

Xukavi.4320:

I would like to recall some things from the “What Scarlet Saw” short story and see how it fits with our updates on the story so far. Some parts of the story stand out, though I still can’t make full connections with what’s going on in the story so far.

When Scarlet was in Omadd’s machine she heard the Pale Tree’s voice saying: “Stop, my child. Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.”.

What forces is the Pale Tree talking about? What exactly does she mean by shape us? At first glance when you read it, you’d think shaping means defining how they act. Which as far as we know, what defines the morals, for lack of a better word, of the Sylvari are the teachings of the Ventari tablet. BUT, that wouldn’t make sense with the following part that says ‘you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.’

[…]

To me this feels more like Ceara found out more than anyone was supposed to know about the Pale Tree, the true origins behind the Pale Tree and then the Pale Tree turned on her deeming her dangerous.

Hmmm… Good eyes and memory there.

Such things of morality for the sylvari would actually be the Dream and Nightmare, rather than the Ventari Tablet. So what she saw and is peering into her was one of the two then. Or what made either the Dream or the Nightmare.

Alternatively, the origins of the Pale Tree – what made the Pale Tree (the seed) and the like. However, it being the origins isn’t full cut, because the Dream and the Nightmare are not tied to the sylvari race. The White Stag is on par to the Pale Tree in regards to the Dream, and Malyck – a sylvari of another tree – lacks a Dream.

Xukavi.4320:

Now this brings up two points regarding this ‘Grand Design’, the first is that all four are meant to be part of a grand design playing a certain role. So the “shapers” (I’ll call them shapers as the pale tree said the forces that shape them) meant for there to be the pale tree and a nightmare court. The second part which ties in with the more recent living story updates, which is Scarlet saying that she knows Caithe’s secret.

Do we ever find out what Caithe’s Wyld Hunt is? What was her true purpose in the world? Some people assumed that the secret was Caithe and Faolain sharing feelings but this points that they’re both major parts in some grand design that no one yet understands or even notices.

This may be why the Pale Tree has the reaction to the Nightmare Court she does – she knew they must exist, for some reason unknown to us, if this is true. I do not recall where the dialogue – may have been BWE now-removed dialogue – but the Avatar of the Tree said at one point that she accepts, though sorrowfully, the Nightmare Court’s existence.

We do find out Caithe’s Wyld Hunt – at the end of the first story arc for sylvari. Her Wyld Hunt is to slay Zhaitan.

draxynnic.3719:

This is, of course, assuming this lore is even still valid any more, now that the formation of constellations is linked to the rise of Elder Dragons. Although that could be a subtle hint of some connection between the gods and whatever process leads to the formation of new constellations to warn of ED activity.

Er… no it isn’t. From the very end of the Jotun path of Arah:

“This is an amazing discovery! The jotun’s sky-sweeper shows a stellar match with the last time the dragons awoke. "
What does this prove?
“It shows that the awakening of the dragons is a natural and cyclical thing. The stars only indicate the passing ages. They do not determine events here.”
When did it last happen?
“Around ten thousand years ago. You know what this means? The Elder Dragons may have been responsible for the extinction of the Giganticus Lupicus!”

Basically: A star is formed every 10,000 years, like a clock, and can be used to accurately tell time between ages. The rise of the Elder Dragons coinciding with this formation is pure coincidence (I would say Varra may even be wrong as it being proof of the timespan between ED risings, given the whole stealing magic/hiding everyone and then free magic that happened – that should have screwed over the process so either the previous rise was sooner than thought, or rises before that was likely longer than since the previous rise).

The quote was, I believe, “we won’t see dragons before Scarlet’s arc is over.” Though that doesn’t mean it won’t somehow lead into a dragon arc.

As to Scarlet being linked to Zhaitan – I included that amongst possibilities myself with this past release. And it can be even with Zhaitan’s death. If you go to Arah explorable, specifically Seer path, then you’ll note the Risen still act as if Zhaitan is alive – doesn’t mean he is, it just means his corruptive influence remains even post-mortem. So if Scarlet was influenced pre-Zhaitan’s fall, then the influence will remain even with his death. Theoretically that is – but it’s all theoretical if Elder Dragons can influence sylvari.

And come to think of it… such may be possible. During the personal story step Close the Eye a sylvari is taken prisoner and turned insane – rather than killed. Though if the wiki is correct she becomes healed again (I’m… not sure such is true), such may have happened to Scarlet.

To the original OP. In the lair is a rather crude drawing of a tree surrounded by red vines – this is obviously the Pale Tree being choked by the red thorned vines she saw in her vision. This equally crude drawing is more frantic, and you can see black behind some of the red – much like the tree in the other one.

I think the picture talked about in the OP is just a more “crazy-fied” version of the tree-strangled-by-a-vine drawing. A show of Scarlet’s madness progression.

Alternatively, the black seems to “dangle” from the thorns – like hanging people. Perhaps it’s a hint to the image she saw when the being trying to enter her mind showed her images of “death, destruction, and destiny”. People hanging from the thorns (“branches”) of the red vine – which she views to be herself (hence why she took the name Scarlet Briar). All of Tyria will hang by her “thorns” – that could have been the message, hence how it can be about both death and destiny.

In Kessex Hills, one of the NPCs stated that offshoots are spawning from the roots of the original tree still. Not sure how, tbh, and the old animation of a giant spore falling to the ground is still there. But that’s the explanation.

I’m not sure if the dialogue is still there after this update though. I believe it was Scholar Ela Makkay who said such, and the dialogue isn’t up on the wiki…

zwierz.9012:

Only Logan’s text chat about Rytlock’s warband I missed, he ran away. That was rude to run away in middle of conversation with my character!

He didn’t have such for me. I talked to him between his chat with Braham and his chat with Marjory, and then his chat after Marjory but saw no difference. I managed to screen his dialogue prior to talking to Marjory though.

Wow Requiem. That’s so full of theories stated as facts I don’t know how you got it all like that.

• The thumpers’ purpose is still unknown. The three-headed wurm and its ilk in the new meta event was an unintended side-effect.
• I’m not seeing a creature being pointed at by the drill.
• Her motive is stated to be unknown still, actually. Or was stated to be in the “things to come” update back after Wintersday was released.
• The Thaumanova Reactor was not to use energy, per se, but study it. And if it is intended to be a precursor of using the same energy as the Marionette… then the Marionette is using dragon energy (or would it be chaos energy? Thaumanova used both).
• NOTHING says that Tequatl “shifted alliances”. In fact, all indication states that dragon minions are quite incapable of doing such – and even after Zhaitan’s death, his minions still hold fanatical devotion to Zhaitan (as seen in Arah explorable mode).

DarcShriek.5829:

Let’s make sure I understand this. For many years Ventari tended to the tree and recited teachings to the tree.

How is this any different from a ritual? There is no difference, it is a ritual and it’s quite a powerful ritual at that. Consider the many differences between the Pale Trees sylvarii and Malyck. These differences are due entirely to Ventari’s and Ronan’s rituals.

Teaching around the tree. Not to.

And it’s not a ritual in a fantasy setting sense where magic is involved, because there is no magic involved here. But the only thing known to free a dragon minion from its Elder Dragon’s control is a magical ritual. There is a very fine difference

It is a ritual in the definition of a repeated action. It is not a ritual in the sense of a magical act.

And I am in no way arguing that there’s no difference between the Pale Tree’s sylvari and Malyck, nor am I in no way arguing that such difference is not due to Ventari and Ronan’s actions.

What I am arguing against is the claim of the Pale Tree being the same entity as Mordremoth – or being a champion of Mordremoth.

Please, do not change the argument. Because now you’re saying I was arguing against something which is pretty kitten obvious and in no way a theory – and in no way what I was arguing against.

No army fights a battle without casualties.

In lore, it’s likely to be an army of adventurers, and some no doubt would die. But given that to each one of us, we ourselves are “the hero” we don’t witness this in the story.

How does a book you read hold effect over you? How does your teachers in classes hold effects over you?

The Pale Tree was sentient all her life, she lived for decades listening to Ventari preach his teachings, listening to him, learning from him. Ventari himself taught her – unknowingly – the same way a teacher teaches a student at school. When he died, he made the tablet with the main points of his teachings and like a faithful student, she took his teachings and protected them. And when she made the sylvari, she spread those teachings – via the Tablet – to her children like a mother teaching her baby.

There’s no need for magic. It’s no different than how we ourselves learn. The only magic involved is that which makes the Pale Tree sentient.

At that point, the dredge were enslaving themselves – the ones who allied with the Inquest were just the leaders. And Scarlet came after this, after the revolution had begun and the dredge once more freed themselves (with outside help). How she got them to work with her is known – thanks to Angel in a recent livestream talk and responses on the forum; she told both the Flame Legion and the dredge that she got the other side with her already when she didn’t, and they accepted because of that and they needed what the other side offered. But what doesn’t make sense, to me, is why the dredge would agree to work with the Flame Legion even though they wanted fire magic – there’s plenty of other groups with fire magic out there that they could have gone to.

That doesn’t change the fact of why they kept working with her after getting the shards (which we know they did). Or why they still work with her at the Marionette area. Their promised prophet is dead, why still work with her? The Molten Alliance failed in their assaults against Hoelbrak and the Black Citadel, why stick around?

This only furthers my suspicions on her goal. The full thought here But in short: I think that she is weakening the supporters of the Pact, being influenced by an Elder Dragon (most likely Mordremoth, but could also be Primordus, the DSD, or Zhaitan (Risen remain fanatical post-Z’s death) from most to least likely).

@pswendel: By her journal, it sounds like she was originally fighting it but eventually accepted it.

When the Secret of Southsun stuff came out, a few players – myself included – suspected Canach was using Mordremoth-influenced plants. Reason being the whole plant thing (not very DSD seeming).

With Tower of Nightmares, and the giant hallucination plant that attacks via pollen, I suspected a tie to the Fervid Censer (what Canach used to spread those plants across Southsun Cove). I had a long theory on how the two share origins and the seed that Scarlet gave the Toxic Alliance was influenced by Mordremoth as well as the Fervid Censor – both, after all, create hostility in the victim via pollen – one’s method of causing hostility (the Fervid Censor’s) is unknown, but the other’s (ToN’s) is known to do such via hallucinations – making the victim believe he/she is surrounded by enemies (see The Nightmare Unveiled instance).

I don’t think there’s a tie between the karka and Scarlet, but I wouldn’t doubt that she went to Southsun Cove to take some samples herself before forming the Toxic Alliance. And nothing but the reason the karka had been pushed out of their home – and possibly the tentacles/Scelrite weapons/Consortium Harvesting Tool seem to be tied to the DSD.

Would be a nice curve ball if it ended up being the DSD instead of Mordremoth or even Primordus that’s messing with Scarlet’s mind though. And if such is the case, then there’s reason to suspect Kanaxai had some dealings with the DSD after all.

It was outright stated – in the same articles that compared them to footsteps – that it was an unintended side-effect. After all, I don’t think the intention of footsteps is to drive worms to the top. :P

The Pale Tree is a tree that was planted between 1072 and 1078 AE. The Elder Dragons were all around in 10,000 BE. It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the Pale Tree to be Mordremoth. And no, there is in fact zero evidence to support to claim that the Pale Tree is a champion of Mordremoth – fallen or not. There is evidence to support the Nightmare being tied to Mordremoth though, but not the Pale Tree. The best you can argue is by extension of the Nightmare (and thus Nightmare Court) possibly being tied to Mordremoth. But the Nightmare Court are also anti-Elde Dragon, so they most likely wouldn’t know of any influence if such exists. And it is also physically impossible for the Pale Tree to be a “fallen” champion because no purifying magic – something that is incredibly rare – was used on her in her upbringing. People often say “the Ventari Tablets did it just like Glint was broke from Kralkatorrik!” but these people forget two very important facts: 1) The tablet is not magical. It’s just a tablet. 2) Glint did not break free on her own accord, she was forced to undergo a ritual by the Forgotten, the ritual having been lost until after Zhaitan’s death. So no, it just isn’t possible for the Pale Tree to be tied to Mordremoth. And if ArenaNet alters their lore to make it so then they did an asspull just to satisfy players who want to play the bad guy (something they initially said they wouldn’t ever do).

The Flame Legion’s magic never relied on the destroyers. They literally called them gods for a good amount of a few weeks or months at best. They surfaced in 1078 AE, and they were no longer worshiped the same year.

Well in the case of the living world events, as well as those with events where named individuals die (as opposed to generic NPC 24601), I always viewed those as happening once and only once canonically, but repeat mechanically so that more people can enjoy it. Otherwise we’d have cases like the Ancient Karka meta where everyone would be trying to take part and be lagging to all hell, resulting in disconnects and the like. It gives a larger timeframe for people to enjoy the temporary content.

It would be very weird to be having Draithor the Drill die and resurrect a lot of times.

Why would she want the injector itself? It’s just a container attached to a needle. Something she can make with immense ease within 5 minutes I’m sure. If not less. It makes no sense at all for her to be after the injector.

Far more likely she was after the anti-toxin.

Tyrantis.8640:

The thumpers are to drive the wurms to the topsoil, but why? What do Wurms have to do with burning Tyria?

Wrong. The wurms’ appearance is just an unintended side-effect. We don’t yet know what the thumpers are meant to do. But they’re called energy probes – so they’re likely looking for energy.

Tyrantis.8640:

Destroyers are tied to Primordus as would be Flame Shamans who seem to worship Destroyers/Primordus.

Worshiped* Past tense. They haven’t worshiped the destroyers since 1078 AE – nearly 250 years ago.

Tyrantis.8640:

Kralkatorrik (crystal and Aetherblade tech/magic)
Mordremoth the Jungle Dragon who seems to birth the Sylvaris directly. Wurms and Nightmare Court
Primordus the fire dragon. Flame Legion, Destroyers, Fire, Underground.

Nothing relates Kralkatorrik – who is not some air dragon – to the Aetherblades. Nothing truly indicates beyond player no-support fascination that Mordremoth has “birth the sylvari directly”. And there is no longer a tie between Primordus and the Flame Legion – as far as we know (I theorized there may be, with the Baelfire ritual, but there’s really nothing to seriously support such).

Golem kittenpits are very common for asura golems, actually. Asura dynamics personal story for example, or all of the WvW siege golems.

What Snaff made was not a piloted golem, but instead a piloted golem with a head and that was able to respond to mental commands. As explained by Archivist Grep most asura have copied this since, as it “revolutionized” golemancy from being controlled by joysticks to being controlled by the mind.

“He believe a strong mind could make a strong golem even more effective. Before him, it was all joysticks and directional pads. Now piloting is as easy as thinking.”_

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I don’t know what you mean… if you talk to her away from Rytlock, Rox is quite honest that a “small army” did all the work and she just nabbed a piece of the tail. And Marjory remembered my character just fine.

This for me. All the characters except Logan seemed to remember me (and vice versa). I was playing a charr.

Wasn’t sure if Rytlock remembered me, though.

As interesting as the theory is, it’s likely a case of lazy writing and/or a bug where the NPC should recognize but doesn’t.

ZYX.6793:

Well the echoes seem to be present in the regular world as the same cycle of events repeat themselves and foes respawnig. Except the NPCs dont seem to notice.

Are you referring to the dynamic events system? That’s a mechanical thing, not story. They don’t all really repeat themselves, and most are written to be generic and a whole case of “oh boy, not again.”

Fractals is actually explained why the NPCs there respawn – all part of the Mists. The open world isn’t on a constant repeat function in lore and story. This is a part of suspension of disbelief and the like.

Zaxares.5419:

I think it would have to be since her awakening, since she talks about seeing a Mender, and I think the Menders would only be found in the Grove. Or at least in Sylvari-held lands. I’m of the opinion that her journal dates from the time before she left the Grove to pursue studying under the different masters.

BrunoBRS.5178:

when i said she was dreaming, i mean she was unconscious during the experiment, seeing imagery that does not necessarily represent reality. like a really bad acid trip. yes, she only saw the briar during the experiment however…

if you look at how the journal is worded, she definitely started writing it before she became scarlet. she saw menders, the voices tormented her, and then, near the end of the journal, she conducts the experiment, and whatever it is that she saw stared back at her, and that’s when she lost it.

And what would keep her from returning to the Grove for a moment?

The Pale Tree’s dialogue (pulled from other thread):

“Ceara looked too deeply into the mysteries of the world, and something there was looking back at her. It managed to crack her defenses and has been trying to consume her ever since.”

This seems to be about her experience in the Omadd machine. This would mean that was when she encountered the being for the first time.

If you just read the journal, then I would agree it seems to be pre-experiment. But reading the Pale Tree’s line I think differently. She seems to be struggling in that journal – sometimes herself, sometimes not.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Regarding the map with X’s on it – One obviously points to her lair in Lornar’s, another to the starting point for the Wurms event in Bloodtide and one over Gendarren, presumably where her device thingy was (I missed that part of the LS so no idea about that sorry). The one in Lions Arch – perhaps the most imminently relevant – seems to be right over the Asura Gate into the FoTM. People seem to think she’s going to target Lions Arch, but what if the Mists is her ultimate goal? What if her point is to bring something through?

The one in Gendarran is over Vigil Keep. And the one in Bloodtide is north of where the wurm escort event begins – at the Chantry of Secrets’ tunnel (or arguably Stormbluff Haven). The X’s are over Orders HQs, and Fort Marriner.

ThiBash.5634:

Another thing that interests me is the fact that one of Marjory’s antitoxin injectors is located in the lair. Maybe that was what Scarlet was after all along? And if so, what are the implications?

It was said she left with something but no one knows what…

If it was the anti-toxin, then she could use it to create a toxin that is immune to the anti-toxin. Or she was taking it as a precaution… but why not make the anti-toxin herself then?

zamalek.2154:

Anyone else notice the discoloration in these maps? With all the focus on the thumpers it’s pretty easy too miss that the maps have another type of marking (the thumpers are on the edges of the markings). Image 2 is a very good example. Ideas?

Not seeing what you are. I don’t think. Care to point out?

zamalek.2154:

• Watchknights: technically not living and therefore cannot be corrupted – any dragon.
• Steam Creatures: even though they do have living cores maybe they are protected from corruption by their shell, also they are alien to our dragons and may present a challenge – any dragon.

As much as I disagree with the theory, I’d have to point this out:

Elder Dragons corrupt more than living flesh. They corrupt metals, soil, plants, and all that. Just go to the Branded and spend some time there, especially in the mines in Fields of Ruin.

Robot != immune to corruption

Jaken.6801:

(btw. Who wrote that journal… i mean “death, destruction and… destiny”? Quite the quick shift in direction there. Feels a bit forced just for the 3Ds.)

If they just wanted 3 Ds, they would have gone with Despair I’m sure. But I think the last one was meant to be uplifting. It shows her going towards the vision, to me at least.

zamalek.2154:

But but but you reprimanded me for mentioning EDs with the LS . Still ANet have gone against what they said regarding that and Taimi does mention dragons – probably because of the forum warriors demanding dragons.

Actually what I “reprimanded” you for was stating that Scarlet was directly involved with such. But that was before we got this bit. And what I really said was what ArenaNet said – that Scarlet is an “in-between” arc. After Scarlet should come an Elder Dragon. I never said that the LS will be without EDs.

Adding a potential of ED influence was likely ArenaNet’s attempt to salvage Scarlet a bit.

Oh, and I wouldn’t take Taimi for jack squat in regards for reliability. She obviously views Scarlet as a hero – no different than a young boy looking up to Superman. She outright states that she wants to become Scarlet’s apprentice and that Scarlet would make an exception of her and whatnot. She views Scarlet in a far brighter light than reality.

zamalek.2154:

3) EDs cannot physically corrupt Sylvari; but we have had debates about mental corruption a few times on the lore forum.

Well it really depends on why they haven’t been corrupted yet. We’re told they die instead of becoming corrupted, but what if an Elder Dragon figures out a way around it? In-game, the theory is that it’s because sylvari are “too new” and thus unknown. But it’s impossible to tell still.

zamalek.2154:

Dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead! I couldn’t resist either. Either way the magic leaking out of Zhaitan’s corpse is still corrupt and if Scarlet was dilly-dallying with it; it could have done something to her.

It’s “die” not “dead” :P

And no,t he magic leaking out of Zhaitan wouldn’t necessarily be corrupted. While hibernating, the Elder Dragons leak magic out into the world. While awake, the corruption seems to be an active process – Kralkatorrik could turn his Branding ability off and on during Edge of Destiny, for example. It’s not a constant passive uncontrollable act – it’s a conscious action.

zamalek.2154:

We have asked for darker storylines compared to the current Happy Tree Friends stories: demons would certainly fit that requirement. This patch has shown that us forum warriors can make a difference. I guess we will have to wait and see if we will get more Happy Tree Friends or if we will get The Depths. Both could work given the current evidence – it depends entirely what ANet have planned.

Just slapping in “DEMONS!” doesn’t make a story dark, let alone darker. ArenaNet has all the tools for a dark story in vanilla GW2 alone, let alone the entirety of the GW franchise. But I see your point.

Chokolata.1870:

What if the Human gods are dragons? What if they brought the humans from another world to be food?

No. This is outright disproven in-game at multiple points. The RIsen treat Zhaitan as differently from all the older five gods, in GW1 we have seen Dhuum, Abaddon, and Kormir personally (none are dragons), and in lore Malchor had seen all six gods at the time (Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru, Grenth/Dhuum, Lyssa, and Abaddon) in the flesh to carve statues of their true form and thus we have the statues of very human-looking gods across the continent.

The Six Gods look more or less like they’re depicted in the statues. All very human like. The closest to non-human we get is Dwayna and Melandru having wings.

And the hostility resurfaces.

I actually nitpick terminology in context, not out of it. Thank you very much. And yeah, I know I nitpick terminology frequently, but only because without such people tend to make simple assumptions of things that aren’t or may not be. The words from the Lorespinner is pretty clear cut – and yeah, there is a chance for her to be wrong, but as with anything else until there is evidence to support otherwise she is all we have and thus we should go with what she says until otherwise presented.

Nihilus.3015:

Why would an Elder Dragon be in the dream? Makes more sense for it to have been a god like being. Abaddon could always return.

Except that what Scarlet witnessed was not the Dream of Dreams. We aren’t really sure what the heck that was, but it wasn’t the Dream. Not as we understand it.

And if the Nightmare is caused by an Elder Dragon as it is heavily influenced to be then it would make perfect sense for an Elder Dragon to have presence there.

But why would it be a god-like being? The Dream has nothing in ties to the gods. And Abaddon is dead. Confirmed. Stated. Fact. For over five years now I think.

Lutinz.6915:

Between the probes and the drill thing Id say its safe to say she is looking for something. The fact she is also testing a superweapon makes me wonder if she is hunting for something specific beneath the earth to unleash said weapon on.

As I posted in Bruno’s dragon painting in Scarlet’s lair thread: the map in her lair has X’s over the Orders’ and Lionguard’s HQs, and all of her attacks have been attacking the main supporters of the Pact sans the Orders thus far – the Aetherblade even got their ships by stealing from the Pact per Scott McGough a few months back. All her actions seem to hinder the Pact in some way, and she has yet to attack any group (major or not) that doesn’t heavily support the Pact (sylvari and asura give the least support for the Pact and are the only playable races not attacked by Scarlet yet – the best there is would be Twilight Assault which isn’t really an attack on the sylvari).

I also theorize she’s after leylines – in hopes of tapping them to give Mordremoth (whom I still suspect is behind the Nightmare) enough magic to rise. The seed used to become the Tower of Nightmare’s plant may have come from Mordremoth (or influenced by him) – the Tower of Nightmare’s affects are compared by a Lionguard in Overlake Haven as being on par to dragon corruption, after all.

So my thought is her overall plans are:

1. Destroy or hinder the greatest threat (the Pact) to the Elder Dragon she is influenced by (most likely Mordremoth – other possibilities can include Primordus, Zhaitan, or DSD; most likely to least respectively).
2. To give a direct source of food for said Elder Dragon to have (and if Mordremoth, to use to rise).

I could see the plot ending with Mordremoth’s rise – thus the face of Tyria will be “changed forever” – a new Elder Dragon is around.

You’re wrong on that Bruno. Talk to the Pale Tree – or find the thread in this forum. She has new dialogue which states that it was when the Pale Tree tried to stop Ceara from looking “into the mysteries of the world.” (which to me points to the Elder Dragons again – something I mentioned above). It wasn’t since she awakened from the Dream, but since she came out of Omadd’s experiment – when she took the name Scarlet Briar.

Though, hmm. I suppose when she looked at it and saw those images is when she went into Omadd’s machine, thus meaning she had the dreams since awakening indeed. Would put a whole new twist on it though, as it would indicate a tie to the thing from the very beginning – thus there should be other sylvari who could have a tie to it.

Her weapon testing seems to be a giant Aethercanon (weapon of mass destrction go go go death ray!). The drill is likely tied to the Energy Probes’ intention, while the Marionette is a weapon to use/protect/guide the drill.

I think she’s intending to wipe out the Orders and Lionguard and then drill for leylines.

This, to me, once more points to an Elder Dragon behind her. Who’s the biggest threat to the dragons? The Pact. Who’s the main backers of the Pact? The Orders (future main target) and Lion’s Arch (was able to keep Zhaitan at bay, and did aid a bit in fighting Zhaitan). She had attacked Kryta (Tower of Nightmares – don’t include Jubilee as that was on a whim), Hoelbrak and Black Citadel (Molten Alliance), and Lion’s Arch (Mai Trin) intending to weaken them – all that she attacked or marked with X’s are the biggest supporters of the Pact. Sylvari and asura have seen the least amount of direct aid in the Pact; as well as the minor races that she’s completely ignored except as potential alliance makers.

And as for the leylines? Direct food source for an Elder Dragon. And they are known for needing magic to rise – if she’s been influenced by Mordremoth, she’s trying to help him rise.

I could see it also being Primordus, but I find Mordremoth more likely.

Edit: AND ON TOP OF THAT!

She was studying magic as Scarlet Briar (something she seemed to hold little interest for beyond its connections to other things as Ceara), and even caused a massive magical calamity (Thaumanova). And it was there she learned about leylines. After Thaumanova, there was no tampering by Scarlet… Until she began her attack on the Pact’s funders.

On top of that, how did the Aetherblade get their airships? They were stolen from the Pact. Another hindrance to the Anti-Elder Dragon force.

Twilight Assault was her trying to create an airport of sorts and establish a fleet of Aetherblade airships – no doubt for her eventual attacks on the Orders… and perhaps the Pact. Airship to Airship battle. Something the Pact couldn’t counter, because their weaponry is based to be anti-ED.

And there’s also mention by a Lionguard in Kessex (dunno if still there with this update) in Overlake Haven saying the Tower of Nightmares is on par to an Elder Dragon’s corruption. She had to get the seed she gave to the krait from somewhere. What if it isn’t “just” on par, but is influenced/designed from Mordremoth’s corruption?

Zaxares.5419:

You sure that’s a Largos? It looks more like a harpy to me. Even though a Harpy-Tengy alliance would be even more horrifying.

Actually, what does everyone think the races are? Here’s my guesses:

Sylvari —-——- Tengu
Asura —-——— Dredge
Charr —-——— Human? (Although technically the Aetherblades are Asura and everyone else.)
Ettin —-———- Skritt
Harpy —-——- Quaggan
Ogre —-———- Krait
Grawl —-——- Kodan?
Centaur —-— Hylek

Nightmare Court – Tengu
Inquest – Dredge
Flame Legion – Pirate (notice the hat and sword?)
Ettin – Skritt
Largos – Quaggan
Ogre (didn’t think of that!) – Krait
Grawl – Kodan (I’m not sure on either honestly, so going with you on that)
Centaur – Hylek

MrAmputatoes.6031:

Not sure if this belongs here, but yeah. After you complete the cyphers and get Scarlet’s journal, her console displays these images as well.

????

Yeah. I noted in another trhread here. The drill? Top half of it is the thing that’s above the Marionette. The X’s? Over the Orders and Lionguard’s HQs.

Gnat.9405:

So if this airship is also a giant drill, can we assume that whatever she’s looking to get at is under Lornar’s Pass? Or that she’s going to fly it somewhere else? If that’s the case, why Lornar’s now?

Based on the arrows and X’s. She’s gonna attack the Orders/Lionguard HQs. Durmand Priory is in Lornar’s so I guess her weapons test is so that once it’s done, she can just blow up the Priory.

MoS.5970:

Aren’t 3 of those X’s the Order HQ’s?

Yeah. And one’s over Fort Marriner too – the Lionguard HQ.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

The Nightmare Court only had the Nightmare as an ideal
[…]
when Faolain joined the Court her Nightmare allowed her to hijack the place of the Court’s Nightmare.
[…]
The source of Scarlet’s corruption is in Mount Maelstrom

Sources on these things?

Because while Faolain had (supposedly – the source for it was lost) first encountered the Nightmare in Orr, Cadeyrn is said to have fully brought her into Nightmare. That would mean the Nightmare Court hijacked Faolain, not the other way around, and that they easily had a Nightmare influence before Faolain.

And I have seen nothing tying Scarlet to very being in or around Mount Maelstrom (which is directly tied to Primordus, given its own apparent champion – though not a dragon and poorly named).

Gnat.9405:

This is a long but interesting read if you have the time

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1vr5ec/scarlet_destroying_or_surviving_theory/

I was pointed to that. I felt like pointing out the numerous flaws – like the fact that we know the karka and djinn, two sentient races, survived, and the fact that the Elder Dragons didn’t intentionally leave any survivors nor do they act to any role of creation of life (confusion on the wiki’s wording I’m sure).

But I just didn’t feel like figuring out my reddit password.

Stronger chance that the being influencing her is an Elder Dragon, IMO.

Is it possible to get better/bigger images of those writings on the wall? Maybe they’re translatable! Looks like it could be asuran – or just unintelligble scribbles.

So you’re suggesting that Ceara is being invaded by a sentient Scarlet Briar? Thus resulting in the name change.

That could be interesting. The description of the red vine had always reminded me of the Pale Tree’s Circle in the Grove, but red instead of white. Maybe what’s taken over Ceara – perhaps even what’s causing the nightmare – is a “second Pale Tree” which is just inherently evil for some reason (as opposed to being good like the Pale Tree). That would be interesting… a pale tree trying to take over another’s sylvari via utilizing the Dream. Though the Dream doesn’t seem innately tied to all such trees so it may not be Malyck’s tree if so.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nah, she’s already done the summoning:

Captain Lorekill!

Still trying to figure out what lore she destroys, actually.

Well, really, it depends on the level of uncertainty and confusion created that argues whether she actually destroys the lore. For example: The dredge. They’re in a revolution and hate slavers and the charr, yet would work with the Flame Legion (known slavers and charr) for still unexplained reasons beyond “we want power!” And the krait. How would she have gotten the obelisk shard? Why did they not simply gut her once they had the shards? Just to be the tip of the iceberg.

Now that is a very interesting interpretation of Scarlet’s mockery of Jennah’s Watchknights that she stole (update note page outright calls it an intended mockery). A hidden message by her to show that she herself is just a puppet…

I love it but feel it’s too in depth for ArenaNet’s current quality of writing…

So the video explains what the thing up above is – it’s an incomplete giant flying drill. You can recognize the top half of the drill diagram at the end of the video as being the thing above the Marionette. The spinning blades and the like.

The maps seems to point out where the Energy Probes are. The black dots match up to the fan-made map of their location at least. But I noticed some X’s and arrows to… Now that’s interesting. The X’s are placed over Vigil Keep, Durmand Priory, Chantry of Secrets, and Lion’s Arch (Fort Marriner I think – the Lionguard HQ), the arrows pointing into that general field.

The only thing in the journal that really hints at anything new is the mention of “images of death, destruction, and destiny.” This would hint to what the possessor wants. Which interesting matches up with what Zhaitan’s goal was (as stated through his minions, particularly in Sea of Sorrows – eternal reign (destiny) through undeath (death must come first)), as well as what’s believed Primordus’ goal is (all his minions do is kill the living – aka ultimate genocide); we don’t really have any indication on Mordremoth’s unique persona and take on the whole “consume the world” agenda (each dragon seems to want the same outcome of consuming the world’s inhabitants, but in different flavors/methods).

BTW, anyone got a transcript of the instance’s dialogue? My laptop can’t really run events and I am unsure if I’ll ever get to that instance because of such (no desktop until Feb 10th or 11th), so I would love to see as much dialogue from there that can be provided.

So the video (is the voicing in-game or the uploader reading it? Nice voice either way) explains what the thing up above the marionette is – it’s an incomplete giant flying drill. You can recognize the top half of the drill diagram at the end of the video as being the thing above the Marionette. The spinning blades and the like.

The maps seems to point out where the Energy Probes are. The black dots match up to the fan-made map of their location at least. But I noticed some X’s and arrows to… Now that’s interesting. The X’s are placed over Vigil Keep, Durmand Priory, Chantry of Secrets, and Lion’s Arch (Fort Marriner I think – Lionguard HQ), the arrows pointing into that general field.

The only thing in the journal that really strikes me (as I had already known something was entering Scarlet’s mind via the new Pale Tree dialogue that was added this update) is the mention of “images of death, destruction, and destiny.” This would hint to what the possessor wants. Which interesting matches up with what Zhaitan’s goal was (as stated through his minions, particularly in Sea of Sorrows – eternal reign (destiny) through undeath (death must come first)), as well as what’s believed Primordus’ goal is (all his minions do is kill the living – aka ultimate genocide); we don’t really have any indication on Mordremoth’s unique persona and take on the whole “consume the world” agenda (each dragon seems to want the same outcome of consuming the world’s inhabitants, but in different flavors/methods).

I see nothing to relate to Primordus still. I think all of you are just dragon-deprived.

Or is it “good story deprived.”

I haven’t been able to be in-game much, but if you compare the Metranome to the earlier “poem” by Scarlet, it was really a bunch of nonesense that was about a terrorist attack and bombs. This one? Likely just taunting a proclamation going “those probes are mine and we’re searching below!” The rest? Generic threats.

I also see nothing to relate Tequatl or Scarlet’s actions in Twilight Arbor to be related to Mordremoth.

And with the Marionette tied to Primordus… again not seeing it. And lowered into the Depths? Lowered how? It’s lowered onto a platform, not into some giant hole which would be needed (and why a giant thing into underground tunnels? Makes little sense to me but eh, Scarlet’s insane so…).

There’s a lot of things there could be other than a demon… And Abaddon is dead. Dead, dead, dead. Dead, dead, dead. Dead, dead.

(Sorry, had to)

In less seriousness: Obviously Ceara looked into the very consciousness of the world. And it will soon be revealed: Tyria is no planet like we believe. No no no, it is something far worse. It is a giant dragon, having been hibernating in a ball-shape as it slept. And Ceara poked its consciousness, stirring it in its dream. Soon it will unfurl, expand its wings and the world will shake… but we won’t feel it. And the Elder Dragons? They are but its children in the most infantile of states, not yet ready to become colonies of their own.

Anyways, in actual seriousness, my bet is on Mordremoth. Here’s why:

• “the mysteries of the world” – what in this world, that is part of the world like nothing else, is fully unknown? Magic, leylines (the flow of magic in the world), and the Elder Dragons (which consume magic).
• “something there was looking back at her” – what happens when people try to look at Elder Dragons mentally like Ceara did? They look back. Edge of Destiny, when Queen Jennah and Anise tried looking into Kralkatorrik’s mind, it shot back at them; when Snaff tried to delve into Kralkatorrik’s mind, it looked back. And Jormag’s all about mental powers too. Smells like Elder Dragon to me.
• “has been trying to consume her” – what out there consumes? Elder Dragons. The entire thing when Snaff delved into Kralkatorrik’s mind was that it was trying to consume Snaff, trying (and almost succeeding) at corrupting him.

This all to me points to “Elder Dragon” – so why Mordremoth? Simple:

• It’s the only one not awake.
• It’s implied to be related to the Dream and Nightmare. This is what Ceara’s vision was about.
• If it did influence her, trying to corrupt her, and it is an Elder Dragon, then it 1) cannot be Zhaitan (he be dead), 2)
• Tower of Nightmares. Giant plant and poison? Screams like Mordremoth, our dear Elder Dragon of Vegetation, to me.

An alternative could be:

• Primordus. Scarlet’s first action in alliances was bringing in two groups related to the destroyers somehow. Her relations to fire. She seems interested with something underground (the probes), perhaps searching for a clear route for Primordus.
• Zhaitan. Tequatl’s power boost was said to tie into the Living World. Though said to be dead, how can everyone really be sure? We haven’t seen a corpse and I believe it was said that Zhaitan’s corpse will eventually come into play. What if Zhaitan isn’t yet truly dead?
• The DSD. She had to get those obelisks from the DSD’s territory. How?

I cannot see Jormag or Kralkatorrik being tied in. Nor do I see some demonic possession being tied in, but that’s because ArenaNet seems to be avoiding demons of that sense (the only demon we got are imps, which were in Tyria even in GW1 – we have a total lack of the more mental demons thus far – probably too tied into Abaddon for their tastes. Meh.).

Nah, she’s already done the summoning:

Captain Lorekill!

Magic is inherently neutral indeed.

But so are hurricanes, volcanoes, tsunamis, and earthquakes.

A little bit of fire can be helpful – it can warm you when cold, it creates light in darkness, it can cook food, it can be used controllingly to harm enemies. But too much can also be very harmful – like forest fires. I view magic to be similar. Too much of it may end up being very bad (though there’s no forest fire that does permanent damage, I would view the same for magic similarly – doesn’t mean forest fires aren’t disastrous).