Guild Wars 2

Jaken.6801:

Was that a quote in an interview, or did she say that? I am not really sure. Though if she said that it would not go against the theory, since she could have just played her role.

Interview.

Jaken.6801:

Even if it was mentioned in an interview like that, it could still be interpreted the way i discribed: she is busy getting something ready and they party. Talking about being tested. Fine, let me test them for real attack.

Now you have two separate reasons and mentalities. Which kind of clash, imo. “They’re having fun. I should show them they should be getting ready!” vs “They think they’ve been tested? I’ll show them they’re wrong!”

While it’s possible to have both… her motivation being stated to be to kind of throw Jennah’s words in her face kind of makes dual reasons unlikely. Possible, but unlikely.

Such is not really brought up anywhere so I don’t think anyone could answer such a question.

It would only be her revenge if she was after the asura alone. Which isn’t the case.

So to take away from the dozens of “Scarlet is controlled!” threads, this is something I’ve been relatively curious about for some time. And something that reveals an interesting potential revelation about trolls.

Recently, in an interview, it was disclosed by Jeff Grubb that Destroyers are created in mimicry (or mockery) of creatures.

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In GW2, we have four models. Three of which are pretty obvious what they’re made in mockery of, as they’re named after the creature: Crabs, Trolls, and Harpies. There was also the Destroyer of Life in Edge of Destiny, which was mantis-like. There’s also our favorite Megadestroyer/Destroyer of Worlds model.

Now, let’s step back in time a bit. To GW1. If we look at those models, pretty much none of them resemble living beings as players have seen them. To show the models:

Destroyer of Sinew
Destroyer of Flesh
Destroyer of Earth
Destroyer of Bone
Destroyer of Deeds
Destroyer of Hordes
Destroyer of Hope
Destroyer of Thoughts
Destroyer of Lives

Ignoring The Great Destroyer, as it is a dragon (kinda sorta). It’s interesting to note that these are all based off of actual living beings… yet none we have really seem like creatures we see… or do they?

• The Destroyer Troll model is also used for destroyers that were present 250 years ago (Obsidian Destroyer Trolls) and with a destroyer that uses GW1 naming style (Destroyer of Earth). Not only this, but it is close in resemblance to the Destroyer of Sinew – the main difference is that the Destroyer of Sinew has a tail, while the Destroyer Troll does not. Is this a hint that trolls were around, though slightly different (evolved to lack a tail), during the previous dragon rise?
• The Destroyer of Thoughts loosely resembles the appearance of mursaat – the appendages/blades on the back being akin to the black “wings” on mursaat, and the animation is the same (take that with a grain of salt for lore value).
• The Destroyer of Lives frame was also used in newly introduced plants, indicating that these destroyers were mimicries of plantlife (which would in turn explain their idle nature). This may give insight into the plantlife of the previous dragon rise.
• The Megadestroyer/Destroyer of Worlds may be a mimicry of ogres, given the size shape and body structure – or alternatively, jotun (the two races are already said to be related and both are said to be ancient, though ogres aren’t mentioned yet for being around during the previous dragon rise).

And the rest? Unknown. They all more or less use brand new animations in GW1. With the Destroyer of Thoughts appearing as something akin to a race known to have been around during the previous dragonrise, these destroyers may give insight into the life of Tyria of that time period (which, if the Priory is to be believed, would be 10,000 BE).

Others’ thoughts on the topic? Any clue what these Destroyers could be mimicries of?

He very clearly did retain his individuality from his dialogue. His personality is unchanged from previous encounters.

And actually, my suggestion would require that it recently ate husks. Regardless of above or below ground. These are “partially digested husks” as in “recently eaten.” And… where does it say they work for te husks? Maybe they’re just generally hostile?

I would say no, a megaboss wouldn’t “also require” a “mega-lore-importance.” It would really depend on why the wurm was chosen to be made. Without knowing that, we couldn’t really say whether or not it “requires” a “mega-lore importance.”

DarcShriek.5829:

Konig, you forget that Svanir had free will before becomming a dragon champion. The Sons of Svanir, all choose to become dragon minions, they are not forced. So please drop your no free will argument, that dog don’t hunt.

And you forget that the Sons of Svanir are not dragon minions. Yes, they chose to become dragon minions because they have free will before becoming dragon minions.

Son of Svanir != Icebrood

Same goes for Svanir – he willingly chose to tap into Drakkar’s magic and in turn got corrupted into an Icebrood, where then he lost his free will. He retained some of his personality, as all of the stronger dragon minions (especially champions like Svanir became) was.

Jormag is unique in how he corrupts anyways – he entices people to willingly accept his corruption (thus they willingly give up their free will), whereas the other Elder Dragons forcibly enslave. Some Sons of Svanir (or intelligent Icebrood that were Sons of Svanir) forcibly corrupt for Jormag, but otherwise he entices with power to lead beings into corruption.

But still, your examples were of beings not (yet) dragon minions.

However, after that fractal if you talked to Kiel in LA, she stated that the Inquest studied chaos magic then dragon magic. Besides, keep in mind that mesmers use chaos magic. Dragon magic is unique in that it is corruptive and comes directly from the Elder Dragons. So it cannot be a case of “all chaos magic = dragon magic”.

And here’s a counter for your Occam’s Razor: How did Kudu maintain individuality after corrupted by dragon energies? Studying sylvari immunity would seem like a good possibility there.

And I don’t see how making the three-headed ancient jungle wurm a champion of Mordremoth makes it simpler – as I presume that’s what you meant.

BrunoBRS.5178:

he was contracted to lead the expedition. he was doing a job. he wasn’t part of a group as much as he was someone that needs to pay bills.

but he went rogue after things went haywire, and cut connections with everything and everyone, which is a very lone wolf thing to do.

He didn’t go rogue ever, technically speaking.

When the karka got riled up, he suggested to the involved parties to lay low. This is not so much an attribute of a lone wolf, but a guilty party. He didn’t cut ties to the Consortium then, except his suggested no-contact to refrain suspicion being placed on him.

When he was found out, he went into custody and admitted the Consortium’s involvement and his own. This in turn upset the Consortium and they tried to assassinate him. This forced him to flee on his own.

He is no lone wolf. He was just someone out to not die.

kylwilson.9137:

White girl with daddy issues. It’s just so…

Wow. Way to generalize. Want to generalize? Okay!

Braham: Teenager with mommy (and girlfriend) issues.
Rox: Fangurling over the Stone Warband.
Marjory: 1920s detective gone asian lesbian.
Taimi: Tween with idol issues.

Yeah, they don’t feel all that interesting now, do they?

Kasmeer is more than some “white girl with daddy issues”. She’s a noble who lost all her fortune because of an idiot brother, and her father paid the price with his life and the whole family’s fortune so that her brother could live.

There’s no daddy issues there. She’s grieving over dead family on the anniversary of her father’s death. She may have brother issues, but not “daddy issues.”

TriggerSad.2597:

Kasmeer as a character is overall fine, though looking at that story, she does suffer from a serious issue that almost every character in Guild Wars 2 must apparently have to deal with; a tragic backstory.

Tragic backstories is an easy and popular tool by writers in order to give a character motivation. If a person had a good life all their life, then they wouldn’t really have any motivation would they?

It’s not even really a case of storytelling, but life in general – which is why it goes into storytelling so much. People without a reason to get up and be motivated just aren’t going to get up and do something fantastic. There’s really two general scenarios to give a character to get them into a good plot:
1) You give them some motivation in their background. Most cases can be classified as “tragic” because tragedy is the most motivating – for both doing good or bad. The only alternative would be to give the person a normal life and they meet someone who becomes their hero (which seems to be what Taimi’s going to be – with Scarlet being a “fallen idol” and Braham replacing her).
2) Force the character into the plot. A character, for no reason of their own, is forced into going with the flow (so to speak) and have to choice in the matter.

Jaken.6801:

While Scarlet is seeing doom and destruction, humanity suddenly starts to celebrate.
This might have annoyed her, since she is seeing the destruction at the horizon and taking it easy, even with Zaithans defeat (if PS is to be included), is not what the world should do.

So she attacks, shows how dangerous she is and begins her silly invasions (which under these aspects start to make sense).
She basicly got everyone in red alert with this action.

Issue with your theory is here. We’ve already got confirmation that Scarlet attacked the Jubilee on a whim because of Jennah’s own speech about being tested. Basically, Scarlet went “you were tested? Oh, well, not by me you haven’t! -attacks-”

TBH though, I don’t like nor believe the whole “anti-hero trying to fight a great evil” theory of Scarlet. It would just diminish her character. I would much prefer an “anti-villain who’s out to ‘save’ her race by removing the Dream and Nightmare” or something of the like. Something more interesting than “I’m evil because!” but not something that would turn her into a ‘good guy’ because… she isn’t. She just isn’t.

Psynch.4087:

The Priory Scholar Ela (in the L.A. recap instance) makes a big deal about Scarlet collecting alliances that compose the 4 major elements related to elementalists. I haven’t heard anyone try to tie this aspect into their frameworks.

How does this fit in?

Ela spouts out a bunch of player theories as Priory scholar’s theories while recapping Scarlet’s actions. I wouldn’t put weight onto anything new she says, truth be told. I mean, what does the dredge in their technology really have to do with earth? Flame Legion have fire magic. Aetherblades use air magitech. Toxic Alliance use water and plant magic. Dredge? They’re just living underground. It seems too far fetched to be a plot element, no pun intended, but perfect as just another player theory put in-game.

But if the elements did have something to do with things, then I’d imagine that it revolves around being power sources. Fire, lightning, water… these are all capable of being used as power. Earth? Materials – ores. That’s my guess.

Now here’s something that really has been forgotten:

Azurite. Does it play into things? It was introduced as a newly discovered mineral that must be melted down to be harvested but is highly magically conductive once done so.

DarcShriek.5829:

Yeah, I know the claim that only a ritual known by the forgotten can convert a champion. However, Glint had existed for many years as a champion, where the pale seedling had yet to develop. Possibly due to the immaturity of the pale tree, Ventari’s and Ronan’s efforts were enough to change the tree.

Immaturity doesn’t matter for jack here. To be a dragon minion is to be fanatically and fully devout to the Elder Dragon. To dragon minions, the idea of not following their dragon is simply not fathomable. Why is this so? Because they don’t have free will.

No free will = cannot disobey their dragon.

The Forgotten ritual gives them free will. That is the “cleansing” of the corruption – it breaks the chains of enforced mental slavery and allows self-consideration, free will, or whatever you wish to call it. The ritual alone is not what turned Glint away from Kralkatorrik but the combination of free will and Glint’s ability to read others’ minds.

Immaturity is not a question, because if the Pale Tree was a dragon minion it simply would not be capable of disobeying.

Think of it like mind control, as that’s basically what it is. A subtle, magical, mind control to give all things corrupted devout and fanatical desires to follow the dragon that corrupted them. And it just isn’t simply a matter of free will to break free as there is no free will; and it isn’t a matter of nurture because there’s no way to break the train of thought without first introducing free will – and that’s something nurturing cannot do.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The issue with this is that at the end of the journal, she gives into the force.

She gives into the force? I didn’t get that impression at all. How did you come to this conclusion?

“Tonight, I saw it. I started into the abyss, anD it stared back at me. So much power. I don’t know what’s real and what isn’t anymore. Control of my world, of myself, is slipping through my hands. And yet, I’m no longer scared. It communicated with me through images of death, destruction, and destiny. I must know more. I must confront it and put an end to this madness.”

Confronting doesn’t only mean to conflict with, but can also mean to speak up to. That last sentence doesn’t automatically mean “I’m going to fight this force!” Then add in the previous lines – she’s no longer afraid that she’s losing control, and she must know more.

It sounds more like she’s intending to confront it to learn from it. That is how she’ll end the madness – by answering questions she doesn’t know.

To me it sounds like she’s intending to do the same as she did with Beigarth, Asagari, and the asura colleges. Use the entity to learn from, then discard.

Plunder.8195:

The non-inquest/alpha enemies in the themed rooms in CoE are all dragon minions. In the jungle themed rooms these are for example (most noteworthy) nightmare hounds and husks of various kind. These enemies are also found in only sylvari themed area’s, and mainly the nightmare ones. Same with the flower-turrets and volatile blossoms found in the jungle-dragon-themed rooms in CoE. Some of these are even found in TA only, a place where the influence from the nightmare is maybe the strongest.

Now tell me, what proof do you have that the Inquest weren’t studying them for the sylvari’s immunity to dragon corruption, rather than studing them because they’re minions of an Elder Dragon?

Keep in mind, that the Infinite Coil Reactor (of which Crucible of Eternity is part of) is studying more than just dragon energies. The areas outside show that they are also experimenting with chaos magic (just like at Thaumanova) for example.

Plunder.8195:

Now, since last patch we have a 3rd place where husks show up! The great jungle wurm spits them out! IF husks are minions of the jungle dragon, would that make the great jungle wurm a chamion of Moredemoth? (rather than a loreless megaboss)

The new Great Jungle Wurm is not loreless, per se. Though it has about as much as any other world boss such as, say, the Shadow Behemoth. But just because it ate possible-dragon-minions doesn’t make it itself a dragon minion. It just means it ate dragon minions.

Jaken.6801:

Bloodstones are big round thingies in the ground. At least the ones we saw in GW1.

Not all of them, actually.

Kalarchis.8635:

The stones are grey, not red. They’re called bloodstones because the original was sealed with King Doric’s blood.

This is more or less a matter of semantics, honestly. All of the Bloodstone Shards/Dust are red, and in GW1 there was a Bloodstone (image linked by another) which was more or less all red. The other two Bloodstones had what appeared to be hardened lava stone around red crystalline stone.

Over time, it would appear that the stone around the original bloodstone has become part of it, more or less, in that it to has become highly magical stone. According to Linsey Murdock a long while back, the whole thing was the Bloodstone. But by all accounts we’re seeing, the red stone is the “original” Bloodstone.

Truth be told, nothing solidly links Mordremoth and Nightmare together. It’s still just theorycrafting that mainly stands on the Crucible of Eternity’s Experimental Green Lab’s creatures being collected for ties to the Elder Dragons and not for, say, the sylvari’s immunity to Elder Dragon corruption.

This is not the appropriate forum for such. It would be more appropriate here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/fangen

ElysianEternity.6215:

It’s obviously something Scarlet kept to herself and hid, seeing how it’s a locked away diary. Carefree people also don’t broadcast their fears and looking at the tension between the two, Caithe would be among the last people Ceara/Scarlet would show any weakness towards.

You kind of forget the fact that she talked to menders. That’s not really keeping things secret.

ElysianEternity.6215:

Whether her mentality fits her before or past the experiment based on the short story is difficult to pinpoint, but hey that’s why we’re discussing.

Indeed. I just wish people stopped stating that it’s so absolute and silly to think it’s all about post-experiment.

BrunoBRS.5178:

instead of looking simply at the events, you have to look at how the events are worded, and interpret them. it is, after all, a diary, not a shopping list.

I am interpreting the events are worded. Yet I come to a different conclusion than you. Which, to me, is proof that this isn’t obviously prior to and up until the experiment. After all there’s no mention of ANY of her experiences as Ceara. No Biegarth or Hoelbrak. No Asagari or Ascalon. No asura colleges or Inquest. No hylek. She only ever makes mention of a mender. Which doesn’t require going to the Grove to visit. Just a sylvari outpost.

I mean, let’s be honest. With how lacking in detail this is, we could be looking at her journal from the point she established the Molten Alliance to when she got the Tower of Nightmares working and her witnessing the thing she tried to avoid was an unintended side-effect of the hallucinogens the tower’s plant was releasing. All it would require would be her going to a mender.

Let me put it like this:

What if she stepped out of the machine full of herself, having witnessed a mystery of the world. She’s snapped, as stated before, at this point. Malicious. Now she’s going through “her” plans but as she does, every night she dreams of nightmares. At first they’re subtle – she doesn’t realize the voice is here or anything. But over the months, over the years, that whispering becomes ever more clear. And she starts to worry – what if her plans aren’t hers? What if she’s being controlled? In an interview about Scarlet, link to which is on Scarlet’s GW2W article, Scott states that Scarlet feels the only thing that can threaten her is the Elder Dragons – if that mystery she witnessed was an Elder Dragon… and now she’s starting to hear whispers in her dream… she starts to worry. What if the one force she thinks might have a chance against her has, without her knowledge, taken action against her? That’s when miss high-and-mighty will begin to fret.

The entire point behind Scarlet is that even after the experiment, she doesn’t feel threatened. This is how she is. This is what Scott presented her as – Scarlet Briar fears no one, even now, except the Elder Dragons; even those who beats her plans down she doesn’t fear. That would make it very odd that this is a sudden revelation about her past… so it has to be about her present. These dreams – they didn’t start with the experiment. They started long after, but because of the experiment.

Xukavi.4320:

I have a question though this is a real stretch. Let’s say that the entity in Scarlet’s Dreams was Mordremoth. In my opinion it seems that she doesn’t want to be under the influence of said entity and doesn’t want her “destiny” decided by it. Given the new drill machine with a portal attached to the top. What if she decided that it’s best to turn the two fates (can’t remember how she worded it in the short story) against each other. Could she be trying to dig her way to Primordus and using the portal to move him to where Mordremoth is located? This would achieve two things:

1- Putting the two fates against each other (drawback of this is how Primordus can be considered a fate anyways)
2- Hopefully getting rid of Mordremoth if the dragons aren’t really allied together.

This would go with what the pale tree told Scarlet that society isn’t ready for what she wants to achieve. Again like I said, it’s just random wild thought that came to mind.

The issue with this is that at the end of the journal, she gives into the force.

We really don’t have enough on magical immunity to say whether any form of it can be sourced outside of magic. The only case we have is Forgotten magic and the sylvari. The former’s definitely magical, and the latter most likely is given that mobile plants in Tyria has – with the possible exception of sylvari – always been caused by magic.

The last bit has been my theory – and would also account for how Mordremoth got to the Nightmare Court if and only if the Nightmare is sourced from him. By making the courtiers rigid, they lessen their connection to the Dream, thus they lose their invulnerability to corruption. Would explain not only Scarlet, but the irriversibility of being touched by the Nightmare (for both sylvari and sylvan hounds), and why the NC target Soundless despite the Soundless having cut off their ties from the Dream of Dreams as well.

To further my theory on that – I believe that the Dream of Dreams is tied to the Mists, and the Forgotten, having come from the Mists (or so all indications have yet to debunk from GW1), may be using the Mists to counter the Elder Dragon corruption. Same can be said for the mursaat’s phasing out magic, as it’s said it allows them to slip into another dimension – from GW1 lore, that would mean they’re partially within the Mists. On top of this, the only dragon corruption we see in the Mists is either via a Fractal which is copying the dragon corruption and not genuine corruption, or simple pre-corrupted Icebrood during the norn Defend the Mists storyline – no corruption ever witnessed within the Mists.

ElysianEternity.6215:

From the interview we also know that she’s Zojja’s pupil and she claims to have studied Scarlet for months.

LINK.

NOW.

BrunoBRS.5178:

they’re going for the CoD audience! killing children is deep and emotional (according to the MW3 devs, apparently)

Dwayna save the children.

No, really. Dwayna’s gonna need to save them from this flamethrower I’m sporting.

-Ignites all the little children on fire mwuahahahaha! Have nonsensical nightmares over a boy you don’t even know now!-

Scarlet in the journal is very clearly afraid at the beginning. Very afraid. But does she come off as afraid during What Scarlet Saw? Does Caithe ever mention some form of scaredness? No. She’s carefree to the fullest extent.

Scared people are not carefree. Ceara before the experiment does not match the journal’s mentality.

She knows Braham from the Twisted Marionette event. Nothing more, given the dialogue. Keep in mind that the instance happens after the Marionette’s beaten (though you don’t have to actually beat it). So all five met up there then went to LA.

I’m quoting an article that’s copied verbatim from an article written by ArenaNet that was featured on their blog until they took said blog down. Everything in Category:Tales are verbatim copies of ArenaNet’s own articles and short stories.

And yes, both good and bad experiences can be sent into the Dream. But as that article explains, it has to be powerful and strong experiences. Stepping on a bug? Won’t be sent back into the Dream. Stubbing your foot? Won’t be sent back into the Deram. Your leg being broken? Probably will be. Seeing a breathtaking vista? Probably will be. Being tortured for the first time? Probably will be. Being tortured for the 10th time in a row? Probably won’t be – you’re used to it by then, it won’t be powerful anymore.

It’s not the Pale Tree that choses what goes through or not, it’s how powerful the emotion behind the experience – good or bad – is. The stronger the emotion, the better chance of it returning to the Dream.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

But what is mentioned in the journal is that she actually went to a mender for help. That is not something that Scarlet Briar would have done- only Ceara, before she decided she knew all her people had to teach.

How do you know how an insane person would act?

If she thought she was sick, why wouldn’t she go to a mender? Keep in mind the purpose of menders: they are healers specifically for sylvari, both physical and mental healers. If she’s having nightmares and mental issues, would she go to someone who knows human/charr/asura/norn/hylek physiology and psychology, treat it herself when her specialty is machines and not flesh, or would she go to someone who knows sylvari physiology and psychology?

BrunoBRS.5178

the wording is too obvious to be “yeah it’s implied pretty heavily all the time, but they don’t outright say it”.

we know from the short story (and from some in-game snippets) that scarlet snapped after that experiment. the pale tree specifically refers to that event as “Ceara looked too deeply into the mysteries of the world, and something there was looking back at her".

then scarlet’s journal uses almost the exact same words at its very end, “Tonight, I saw it. I stared into the abyss, and it stared back at me.”

pretending they’re not talking about the same thing because they don’t spell it out is a bit silly.

Except that the Pale Tree never says that she looked at the being. Just that she looked into the mysteries of the world.

You’re making an assumption of a fact that’s not there.

In order to achieve this goal, the Nightmare Court commit acts of evil both upon sylvari and non-sylvari alike. When their own emotions become too jaded to be likely gathered into the tree, they rely on harming and tormenting other sylvari and giving them memories, horrible emotions, and other traumas in the hope that those memories will be sharp enough to be gathered. The more awful their crimes, the more likely it is that the Pale Tree will carry the memory into her well of emotions, passing those inclinations on to her next generation.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dream_and_Nightmare#The_Nightmare_Court

Come on, Bruno. Pay attention to ancient old should-be-well-known lore! :P

That’s rather what I said, actually. Over time they become hardened/jaded and their connection to the Dream is lessened/lost/somethingoranother. Their memories no longer get sent back to the Dream of Dreams to spread the Nightmare, so they must inflict pain on other sylvari. Otherwise one Nightmare Courtier could just continuously spread Nightmare and the entire race would be quickly engulfed.

Jaken.6801:

The steam creatures were around before scarlet was ever mentioned.
They are tied to an asura storyline.
Their appearence in Scarlet`s “army” is not explained so far. They appeared at some points, but in later releases completly vanished.
The theory so far is that Scarlet studied them and used them for her plans, but nothing more has happened.

She was jocking into making you into her watchknight, because lets face it: Watchknight mimick human beings in design. They are puppets. She is talking about making you into her little puppet to play with.

There are no other creatures of her, which mimic the design of other beings in tyria, though the twisted watchknights share the basic frame of some monsters in the world.

There was one theory, that Scarlet wants to recreate the world in her vision, using technology to do that. So far, there is no evidence for that and it points into a completly different direction.

So yeah. Still not seeing the giant mech dragon flying around sadly. Though i want one for april

You realize that I was fully joking, right?

Though the Steam creatures do have an organic core, and not one large enough to sustain life. So her comment might have been more to making us one of her steam creatures. And the only tie to the asura story the Steam creatures have is they’re from the future, “invented” by the future asura character that went batkitten crazy – hey, just like Scarlet! (Fun speculation: Mechavix couldn’t corrupt the PS asura anymore, thanks to the whole going back in time, so it corrupted Scarlet instead as its harbinger or mechanization!).

But it was all a joke. Also, Scarlet’s taunts in the Tower of Nightmares is likely just hallucinatory – not her actually speaking. Her in depth knowledge of all PCs kind of supports that.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If Colin confirmed it, then I suppose that is the case, if they ever add the Jungle Dragon.
But until they include hints towards it inside the game, they can still move around the Jungle Dragon as they see fit. Not that Tyria has many other jungles where you could place a Jungle Dragon.

Nothing literally in the game though.

Well, there’s the Woodland Cascades to the north. And who knows, maybe Mordremoth isn’t in Tyria. Or it’s east of the Blazeridge.

Though most likely to be in the Maguuma Jungle (even if to the west off the map, closer to the shore).

BrunoBRS.5178:

i think if you pay attention to the wording, and the order of things being told, then it’s clear that the nightmares were an issue before the experiment.

think about it, if the journal is in chronological order (and i’m only saying “if” because they don’t slap a date to each entry, because it’s pretty obvious it is), then she had the nightmares, and then she did the experiment.

the experiment is only mentioned at the very end of the journal, when she “stares into the abyss, and it stared back”, but the nightmare, the voices, and all that other stuff happened before that.

she wasn’t necessarily evil before the experiment, but she was definitely being harrassed by the entity that she saw on the experiment before it happened. the experiment marks the splitting point between the time where she was harrassed and feared it, and the time where she lost that fear, and now has a mix of admiration/hatred for the thing. whereas she tried to escape it before the experiment, now she wants to confront it.

Wrong. The experiment is never mentioned in the journal – AT ALL. What’s mentioned at the end is that she actively looked at the being in her dreams, where before she was avoiding it.

The Pale Tree’s new dialogue implies that it was the experiment that started it all. But it’s just an implication – either way, we have no definitive way to argue one way or the other as a fact.

Etaoin.4362:

What if Scarlet’s endgame is to actually recreate the world in watchwork? Admittedly it would be an advanced form of the watchwork, but watchwork nonetheless. What if part of that equation, however, is also a dragon?

Well, it’s all so obvious now.

Scarlet wasn’t corrupted by Mordremoth. She’s corrupted by Mechatvix, the Elder Robot Dragon. And clearly the Steam Creatures are secretly its minions.

Shiren.9532:

Konig. Is it possible that the Pale Tree is a dragon champion following in the foot steps of Glint? It has it’s own independence and so do its offspring (as does Glint’s)?

As all evidence goes: No.

There are a few facts to consider:

1. Sylvari are immune to draconic energies; dragon minions are not.
2. Glint only broke free because of a Forgotten ritual. For the Pale Tree to be free, she’d need some similar anti-Elder Dragon magical influence. None has been given by all indication and she wouldn’t know of it if so otherwise she would have spread the knowledge (she’s doing a lot to counter Zhaitan in the personal story).
3. Malyck is not of the Pale Tree. If the Pale Tree was a freed dragon champion then Malyck’s tree would either have to be as well, or he would be like all other dragon minions – fanatically obsessed with serving his dragon.
4. People link the Dream of Dreams to the mental connection held between dragon minions and their Elder Dragon – but Malyck doesn’t have a Dream of Dream experience and the White Stag is on par to the Pale Tree in terms of how it interacts with the Dream of Dreams. Meaning that if the Pale Tree is a dragon champion, so too is the White Stag. And I have yet to see people think such of the White Stag.

Shiren.9532:

We know there is at least one more tree out there (Malyck’s tree – although his friendly nature implies sylvari are good by nature and not nurtured by Ventari’s Tablet) and the cave that the tree’s seed came from had other seeds, is it possible other trees that don’t have Ventari’s Tablet are more vulnerable to corruption? Malyck could be a red herring (he’s putting on an act to make us think he’s good) and we could be dealing with sentient dragon minions (something needed imo to make Elder Dragons compelling villains). Was Malyck part of the same dream as the other sylvari?

• If the trees were dragon minions, there would be no case of being more or less vulnerable to corruption. They would be born corrupted.
• Malyck isn’t likely to be a red herring. We have dozens of intelligent and sentient dragon minions, and each and every one of them are fanatically devout to their dragon. We’ve only seen one out of them all that acts nice – and that was a mesmer pretending to be a Pact member to spread chaos in the organization.
• Malyck doesn’t have a Dream of Dreams experience.

Shiren.9532:

Brain storming here, is it possible Caithe’s secret that Scarlet knows is the knowledge of Malyck’s tree? I wrote it off as Scarlet toying with Caithe, but it could also help explain why the Pale Tree is so tight lipped about Scarlet (Caithe tracked down Malyck’s origin and they are hiding it from everyone).

That’s been my theory. But that’s irrelevant here.

Shiren.9532:

For the record I find the sylvari minion theory to be compelling but not convincing. I’m mostly interested in “Is it possible?”.

As things stand, it is not possible. All possible support for the speculation has been debunked. To be a proper theory it needs support – the speculation that sylvari and the Pale Tree(s) are dragon minions lack any form of support.

Kalarchis.8635:

Their immunity surely has something to do with their biology, which the Pale Tree would necessarily share. I wouldn’t be surprised if The Dream and Ventari’s Tablet assist in their immunity somehow, but my guess is that the immunity is innate in all Sylvari and Pale Trees.

I wouldn’t be surprised at the Dream of Dreams being the cause of immunity, however even if it is a biological thing the Pale Tree wouldn’t necessarily share that immunity in such a case – a sylvari is not a tree. Though they come from the Pale Tree, their biology is completely different. Like the “biology” of a fruit from its tree, until that seed is planted and sprouted, it remains different. Sylvari and Sylvan Hounds are akin to fruit, not trees.

However, given that corruption is purely magical and influences all physical things that magic can influence, then countering corruption is likely to be solely magical in solution.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Jaken.6801:

Mordremoth
As far as we know, he is sitting somwhere in the Maguuma jungle.

We do not know this, and we have nothing to assume this might even be the case.

THis is where you’re wrong. The very first developer mention of a “jungle dragon” was by Colin. In said interview, he was asked which Elder Dragon he’d like to see next, and he brought up four of them – Primordus, Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and “the Jungle Dragon, because the Maguuma Jungle is cool” (or some wording like that). Colin explicitly mentioned the Jungle Dragon would be interesting to go fight next because he’s in the Maguuma Jungle – or at least tied to it.

This is the strongest fact of Mordremoth’s existence, though the connection of the JD and the name “Mordremoth” is fan speculation based off of Subject Alpha, it’s pretty much come to be his name by players (like Bubbles for DSD).

Shiren.9532:

darkfiremew.5937:

And the Seers are in hiding or extinct

We have nothing to base this on either. A wild assumption based on zero evidence.

Their lack of presence and knowing they were on the brink of extinction in GW1 is a pretty strong stance of evidence, actually.

They sure as heck aren’t in the open in continental Tyria.

Shiren.9532:

All sylvari are supposed to be connected, when a sylvari dies, fragments of their memories go into the dream and I believe the Pale Tree has a connection to sylvari still alive.

When a sylvari dies, it dies. There’s nothing more to it. I don’t know where people get the whole “their memories go to the Dream when they die” because that just isn’t true and has never been hinted upon. What returns to the Dream is strong and emotional memories – and they return to the Dream immediately (more or less), while the sylvari is still alive. As such, because death is so strong, the moment of a sylvari’s death may return – but it isn’t the death itself that triggers the return, but the strong and emotional part of dying.

The Pale Tree doesn’t have a connection directly to the sylvari, per se. She is a caretaker of the Dream, and the sylvari – most of them that is – have an empathetic tie to the Dream. The Pale Tree can use this tie to call them back but it’s not like telepathy or anything. And it wouldn’t work on Nightmare Courtiers – who have become hardened and thus lose their connection to the Dream – or the Soundless – who meditate to remove that empathetic connection.

Shiren.9532:

How much should the Pale Tree know about Scarlet and what she saw? Given how little the Pale Tree has done to aid us in finding/stopping her, I’m guessing the connection doesn’t work like a LoJack, but she apparently knew something about What Scarlet Saw because she appeared to her in her vision (or did she – is it possible Scarlet thought she spoke with the Pale Tree?). If anyone can correct me or clear up some of that I’d be appreciative.

Scarlet, knowingly or not, ended up becoming a Soundless after entering Omadd’s machine. It seems that the vision was the last thing the Pale Tree knows of Scarlet’s activities because Scarlet is cut off.

Shiren.9532:

Also, do we know if the knowledge of the dreamers is shared with Malyck’s tree? I would presume not simply because if it did (unless Malyck is the first of his kind) we would have known something about them before now.

Malyck knew nothing of the Pale Tree or the Grove, or even the Dream of Dreams and Nightmare – this lack of knowledge led the PC in the storyline to assume he lost his memory (he didn’t as proven by Caithe’s path in the storyline). He was never tied to the Dream of Dreams, and Trahearne believes that Malyck’s tree and the Pale Tree simply have different Dream of Dreams (though this is unlikely as the Dream of Dreams is not tied to the Pale Tree alone – see the White Stag).

webtoehobbit.4201:

I swear, people are going Dragon crazy up in here!!!

Eyup.

Canach a lone wolf? You realize this guy led an expedition team, working for a corporation, right? That’s hardly lone wolf.

But we know it’s not unique to the sylvari (White Stag) and we know that it is not tied to all sylvari (Malyck). So it doesn’t function like the mental semi-hive mind that the dragon minions have with their Elder Dragon.

And we know that all Elder Dragons consume magic. It’s what’s in their nature and when it’s talked about how the Elder Dragons consume magic in interviews it isn’t “the Elder Dragons Tyrians have interacted with” – it’s about all of them. All six (or more if the jotun were wrong which is possible).

Not all plants are going to be tied to Mordremoth. I mean, just think of how many mobile plants there were in GW1 – ibolga, aloe, treants (only ones in GW2 beyond sylvari, husks, and fern hounds), stalkers and so many more. And all of those plants were hostile/protective plant creatures.

Let’s be frank, there are FAR more tied between sylvari and druids – who were Krytan humans originally – than there are between the sylvari and Mordremoth. If there’s a tie to Mordremoth anywhere among the sylvari, it is via the Nightmare, but still that’s a stretch.

Maybe not “what it is” but she knows that it’s there and that it’s dangerous.

We actually have a good amount of information.

And the fact of the matter is that:

• Sylvari do not feed on magic.
• Sylvari die at the touch of corruption; dragon minions do not to other dragons’ corruption.
• Not all sylvari are tied to the Dream, yet those who disconnect or are never tied to it act little different than those who do (though more ruthless, typically).

That’s enough to discredit the speculation. But what does the speculation have in support?

It was literally formed out of the mistranslation of binary in Zone Green at the Infinite Coil Reactor, where the mistranslation was “Pale Tree” while the actual translation was “End Transmission Sequence.” There is NOTHING out there to connect the sylvari or Pale Tree to the Elder Dragon. But there is evidence against such a notion.

To use Bruno’s words: it’s a glorified syringe.

Giant trees? No. Not really. It’s an injector for anything. It’s just a large injector. It could be used on charr or giants if wanted. All it is, is a syringe with a large container flask and on mechanical legs. Nothing more. If she had the stuff, Scarlet could make it in a minute flat if not less.

As to why stealing the injector as well. Well, let me ask you this: Can you detach those containers? Chances are, maybe. But would Scarlet have the time? She left just as we got there. She probably wanted to ensure she wouldn’t lose a single drop or time. It’d be far faster to take the whole thing.

Nah, Scarlet won’t be a redeemed hero. Rox is all over the chance to join the Stone warband, and Rytlock in this update just said “kill Scarlet, I don’t care how, but kill her and you’re in the Stone warband.”

So yeah, either Scarlet dies… or Rox does.

-chants-
Canach! Canach! Canach! Canach! Canach! Canach! Canach!

Ahem I don’t think there should be a 1 for 1. And besides, keep in mind the original Destiny’s Edge had 6 members (7 if you include Garm).

Remember, Remember, the Snaff who’s a member.

@Argon: It’s no longer speculation. In a livestream, Angel called them a couple.

I think he was meaning mechanically. The UI notice and how this update functions is a lot more like the PS’s set up. But utilizing the open world a bit more.

Honestly, except for the temporary stuff, it’s rather what I hoped the personal story would be before we got to the BWEs – PS-triggered events in the open world mixed with instances here and there that would function like GW1 primary quests, and the story of dungeons to function like GW1 missions.

It wouldn’t even be a red herring since he’s not directly alluded to in any way, shape, or form. To be a red herring, it needs to be alluded to at the very least, if not brought up in the face, as being the situation at hand when it isn’t. For example, the big face of Oz was the red herring for the man behind the curtains. With the sylvari, there is no equivilant for the “big face of Mordremoth”.

That reminds me of when the Claw came down as the invasion was going on in Frostgorge. Everyone but about 5-10 people ignored the Claw (back then, there was no timer on him) until the event was over.

All profession and race combinations make sense. Sylvari engineers were explained as the inquisitive race picking up the knowledge of other races and learning the way of technology – though some may have more plant-related stuff – like more eco-friendly flamethrower fuel.

The Dragonbrand was more than “just passing by” – he was actively making it with unique fire breath.

And if we thinkg about it… isn’t Primordus’ awakening – the first of them – the least known one? I mean, if memory serves me right, the original lore for GW2 said no one but the Order of Whispers knew about Elder Dragons until Zhaitan’s rise – it’s such been that Jormag and Zhaitan’s rise were switched so now it should be “no one but the Order of Whispers knew about the Elder Dragons until Jormag’s rise.”

So Primordus being smallest makes double more sense now, given that his rising had next to no effect on the surface.

And what do you mean “the one in GW1 was just a bit bigger than the Great Destroyer”? Are you kidding me? Wasn’t just what we saw of Primordus over twice the size of the Great Destroyer?

I would imagine that if it changes again, it’ll just be the removal of Toxic Krait and the offshoot events. Perhaps the roots being more chopped up and the smaller tower pieces put down. Not a fully reverted zone.

That’s odd, the update notes make it sound like Scarlet was calling back the invasions. Being out of town, and only having my laptop which is by far not a gaming laptop, it’s hard to be sure of the current state of the game.

Zin.1673:

Well first of all who are you to judge theories. Second, you must be blind not to see that the Sylvari are very much related to the Dragon. Dragon spawn ? Corruptible race ? This nobody knows yet.

Another thing, when you create a character your first “big boss” is related to your race main problem. As a Sylvari you are asked to fight against the “Nightmare”, and the boss is a dragon that looks nothing like Zhaitan but rather a jungle/tree like dragon.

When you talk with the Sylvari NOT following the pale tree they all mention “voices” or “callings”, on of them even more or less saying “we must accept violence and pain being a part of our nature”.

I strongly believe that we’ll have to fight against hostile Sylvari (or Sylvari alike) fighting for the dragon, wether they were born for it or currupted.

Also, why would the Sylvari be the only race NOT corrupted by Zhaitan nor the Destroyer ?

Well, who are you to judge me then? You’d have to be blind to not see all the counter-points to the theory. Such as the confirmed fact that dragon minions CAN be corrupted by other Elder Dragons. Sure, the sylvari are tied to the Elder Dragons – in so far that the Dream of Dreams and the Pale Tree compels them to fight the Elder Dragons – ALL Elder Dragons.

The Shadow of the Dragon doesn’t have to look like Zhaitan. It’s a representation.

The Nightmare Court have a false sense of their true self. There’s probably 10 different views of what the Nightmare is and how sylvari should act by the Nightmare Courtiers alone throughout the game. Malyck, a sylvari born without influence from the Dream of Dreams, act nothing like the Nightmare Courtiers.

As to why the sylvari are immune – no one knows. But it’s to all Elder Dragon corruption, not just Zhaitan’s or Primordus’. Jormag’s and Kralkatorrik’s too – probably Mordremoth’s and the DSD’s. But it should be noted – their “immunity” is not really immunity, it’s just that there’s no other short way of saying “rather than becoming corrupted dragon minions, they are outright killed by the Elder Dragons’ corruptive magic.”

Norn simply seek to build their legend. How they do it doesn’t matter – there’s a norn in Hoelbrak who intends to make his legend by counting all the unique snowflakes that fall from the sky, and one in LA who intends to be the best dock worker of all time. There’s a norn (historical) who made his legend by walking across the Shiverpeaks, stopping to drink a barrel (I think) of ale at each and every tree he came across.

A norn engineer may seek to build his legend by becoming the best engineer, creating the most effective elixer, trap a foe with ingenious devices, etc.

The lab is the last thing in the plot we do. I don’t know why we don’t get a chance to bring it up if we talk to the tree before going to the LA instance.

Hopefully it’ll be brought up in the next update and it’s just assumed that no one would go to the Pale Tree until they did all the LW stuff.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

He didn’t have the dialogue, or he didn’t run off?

He didn’t have new dialogue after talking to Marjory that I saw. I saw nothing about Rytlock’s warband.

He did run off. Well, he walked off.

zwierz.9012:

And yeah, english is my 7th language, can’t read that fast, puppy it!

After Eir leaving the instance with Braham in Knut’s loft during the third Flame and Frost update, I have learned to go through and screenshot all the moving NPCs’ dialogue and read after. That’s what I did with Logan, having heard he runs off.

BrunoBRS.5178:

it’s important to remember that the devs hide a lot of race-specific dialogue in these cutscenes. i know that if you’re asura or human, you get unique dialogue out of taimi (as an asura, you talk about a lot of asura stuff, as a human, she’s a bit skeptic of your intelligence :P)

I hate it when Anet does that for one-time instances. Or can we go to them again with other characters unlike previous instances? I noticed my other characters has the whole “investigate the wurm/Marionette” steps again.

I was on my charr, if that matters. Didn’t seem to get any unique lines. None really seemed to reflect “hey, immacharr.”

Your speculation and a hundred others’ as well. This is one of the most popular and least supported-by-evidence “theories” out there (theories require supporting evidence to be such, otherwise they’re hypotheses or wild speculations).

There’s really nothing to support the claim, however, and plenty to counter it. Dragon minions are not immune to other dragons’ corruption is perhaps the biggest counter point. Sylvari are immune, dragon minions are not.

I don’t think we’ll really start to see a change until Scarlet’s dead for good and the Toxic Alliance is broken up – for good. The Toxic Alliance are still about, and even then we’ve been wanting permanent content so Anet could just explain away those offshoots as being protected by small fractions that remained allied even post-Scarlet.

Zin.1673:

Research have been made saying that actually Sylvari are dragon spawns, I cannot find the topic but this pretty smart. For exemple, from all the races, they are the only one that CAN’T be corrupted by Zaitan (no unded Sylvari). They are also related to dream and nightmare, just as one of the dragon. They are all interconnected and following the orders of the tree.

So possibly, the only thing that made those of the pale tree free is Ventari and its teaching and the fact that they were far from the dragon when born. Yet, the nightmare is strong and some Sylvary can’t fight against it.

This being said, you have much more accurate research about this on the net. This could explain why scarlet have been corrupted by a dragon, he just “reactivated” the link.

Research? There’s been no credible research into that theory. It’s just wild speculation. One that has a good amount of counter-points. Like the fact that dragon minions are not immune to other dragons’ corruption despite what seems to be common belief. And the fact that the Dream of Dreams/Nightmare is not tied to the sylvari alone, or even all sylvari. Or the fact that mere non-magical preaching and tablets cannot break a dragon minion from its fanatical corruption – the only thing known to do, and even after a lot of modern research, is an ancient long-forgotten-until-very-very-recently Forgotten ritual which breaks that fanaticism to give the minion free will (note: free will != won’t serve the dragon anymore; Glint still had to hear the mental pain of her victims before she switched sides after the ritual).

But it’s well-known and well-disputed speculation. And has nothing to do with your ‘what if Anet ends it with the reveal of a dragon!’ which isn’t really adding anything since that’s been said a dozen times over. Not to dampen your spirits or anything though. I’ve just grown very tired of that constant “theory” (pfah, something’s not a theory until it has supporting evidence).