Gonna have to ask for that source. Because the two paragraphs don’t sound like NC nor krait at all. Sounds like someone just made it up to me.
And if it is official stuff than by gods Anet’s screwing it up more.
Well, I would blame Scarlett for that, but for what i have gathered, the only reason the nightmare behaves as “evil” is solely because they are trying to “break free” from the Ventari teachings, only then will they be pure and able to know their true purpose.
By your argument, the torture of races – both sylvari and non – is not “evil.” The fact of the matter is that the Nightmare Court is not as united as people lay it out to be. The Nightmare Court was founded upon the principles of simply ‘acting like a true sylvari’ but degraded overall into “act the opposite of the Ventari teachings” – though now within the Nightmare Court you got individuals within the court preaching that the NC are out to balance both Dream and Nightmare, that they act in the favor of both equally; on the other hand you have noble courtiers that do not see the Nightmare as acts of hostility except when needed but see it as the path to go down nonetheless (White Stag storyline); and on yet another hand you have your typical “burn! kill! destroy them all!” folks who take utmost pleasure in torturing and killing others.
they are even immune to dragons.
Only so far in that they do not become dragon minions. Contact with draconic energies results in immediate and undeniable death to prevent becoming a minion. As Aaron said. Just want to re-iterate this point because it is too requently misunderstood.
This is in no way relevant to the thread, but I would love it if saplings occasionally fell out of the sky while walking around the Grove. It’s just so frustrating how vague the game is about the process of a sylvari’s birth/awakening, especially considering how central that moment is to the nature of the race.
Cue It’s Raining Men. :P
Only Lyssa is tied to chaos magic. I find that unlikely. Especially since, as I said, the explosion is recent. The Six left (physically) 1325 years prior (possibly take a few years depending on what year the reactor exploded) and 240-some years after they stopped interacting with the world.
I’ve only seen or heard of Braham and Rox in the NIghtmare Chambers, the documented dialogue for which is here.
I haven’t heard of them appearing in offshoot events – which I take it you mean in the open world? Though I certainly wouldn’t doubt that they would. Would make sense they have appearances beyond just the Nightmare Chambers which are full of hallucinations.
Getting tired of people calling me out for my opinion… think I may take a break from the forum soon.
Anyways, a few issues with your stated “facts”:
As for what the dungeon will be – Kiel promised to look into the cause of the explosion. So we’ll likely see the build-up to it, rather than the immediate aftermath. I doubt the Inquest would be dumb enough to be at Thaumanova immediately after the meltdown. There’s rumors of destroyers causing the explosion, so who knows we may see some destroyers.
Just because I like debating, though I fully agree with your comment about assumptions, on that last two parts:
People actually call her a Mary Sue because of the short story, not prior to it. Before it was just a Joker-copy because that’s what we saw, that’s what we’ve been shown. And in-game, that portrayal has not changed (yet in short stories, we get someone somewhat different – someone who doesn’t make a joke out of everything, just a lot of things).
And it’s not like reading a book and expecting answers in chapter 1. I really hate that analogy that Anet gave, as well as the weekly TV show analogy. The main difference is that the story progresses more frequently in either case, and the chapters/shows are fuller. We should be more in chapter 7 or so, rather than 1. But tell me this: how many people read a book so slowly that they get through a single chapter every 2 to 6 weeks? I know that whenever I took that slowly, it was only because I was bored of the plot or writing and only continued reading because I’m a completionist – if I start something, I finish it (on a side: the only book I never finished since I became a more avid reader was the Twilight series, made it to the fourth book before I couldn’t stand it anymore). And I also know that I – and others I presume – would end up bored with a plot that drags out so long and so slowly. And that is what I see on the forums, vocal minority argument or not.
I know this may sound weird coming from such a lore lover like myself, but I hope they never do the Abaddon Fractal.
Face it, as epic as the thoughts behind it is – five gods versus one who’s as strong as two – as a Fractal which are very short, it would be incredibly unsatisfying. You would either be shown just one small part of the war, or you’ll have an entire war condensced into 30 minutes.
And it’s not like it’d be entirely lore accurate. The whole point behind the Fractals is that it’s not completely truthful history – at the very least, our own appearance will alter the events that happen. So we’d never know where accuracies begin, and inaccuracies end.
All we could hope for would be an epic feeling to the fractal, and as they say the audience’s expectations will always be greater than what they receive.
To be perfectly honest, I’d much rather have more novels on the history of Guild Wars published, with one focusing on the fall of Abaddon (not just the final battle, but his years-long descent into evil).
Do we know what Menzies is up to? No. We have heard a grand total of nothing about his very existence in the game of Guild Wars 2 excluding “The Fate of Menzies” exotic weapon which, given the lore value of weapons (read: none to next-to-none), holds nothing of any reasonable value.
@Aaron: you’re remembering this line:
“The Realm of War is a place of eternal conflict.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Admiral_Saidon_the_Eternal
Side note: Aaron, how can there be an end of an endless conflict? Isn’t that a bit… paradoxical?
I have to say that I really hate the constant comparisons of the timeframe between GW1 and GW2, and the timeframe between now and the past 250 years. The main reason why I hate it is that the position of cultural and technological development for both the starting points and ending points are completely different. Especially for humans. It’d probably be more accurate to compare it to the Renaissance period and 250 years prior. But even that holds its errors due to the other races’ developments and interactions to humans in GW, compared to other nations and cultures’ development and interactions to Europeans.
As to the whole “not witnessing a god for themselves” bit – seeing Avatars in GW1 was commonplace even for the non-heroic or supremely devout individuals (or so some old interview made it seem). Sure, in modern GW2 there’s no interaction and hasn’t been for 250 years, but compare that to Christianity which had run strong for well over a thousand years post-Jesus before being questioned and even now it still runs strong two thousand years after Jesus. Does humanity losing faith so quickly seem that reasonable to you now? Sure, our past 250 years has seen a decline in belief, but it’s already been over a thousand years since (supposed) “divine” interaction – be it first hand or second-hand. Not so for humans in Tyria. But even then, the fictional belief in the Six Gods is vastly different than the real religions we have, as unlike our real religions, they had undeniable proof of the gods’ existence. With Christianity, we may have a good argument for Jesus of Nazareth to have once existed and that he was a pretty swell guy (pretty hard to say when the evidence of Roman records gets brought in if memory serves me right), but there’s nothing but his disciple’s claims to point him as the son of God – or that God exists. The Six Gods, however, have been seen first hand by people, their avatars seen first hand by people – including the players. Their existence is confirmed fact; it’s whether they care or not anymore (or their continued existence, one can argue) that is questioned – but that’s not how more recent interviews’ showing of lore points it as.
I wouldn’t doubt that questioning the belief to begin. I’d be more surprised if they remained fully stead-fast. But in the course of GW2’s development we started with “humans are still as faithful as ever” to going in game and seeing some questioning to seeing in more recent interviews that it’s actually a vast majority of people who question the existence of the gods. Yeah that makes sense (spoiler alert: sarcasm).
Either way, all of that? Irrelevant to the points I was making or those made in this thread. I don’t know why you brought it up Leonie.
As to Orrians withholding information – I never said that it has been stated. I said that it is the best way for all this information altering to make sense. And it’s not a matter of individuals who believe the old lore but the fact that the old lore is proven false for anyone who isn’t blindly devout and that there is no alternative views of the Six Gods of the other races, despite being told such in interviews. And most importantly, that the Six Gods are being downgraded left and right at the drop of a hat, as the saying goes – or at least it feels that way to me, and I’ve seen nothing to argue otherwise just explanations for why their lore is being turned inside-out.
And your TLDR is exactly my point, as that’s the argument Angel McCoy gave for why so much of GW1’s lore is being changed and labeled as ‘false history.’ Not to mention that your TLDR is not a brief version of your above statements. :P
It’s not an alternate universe.
It’s a possible future.
There’s a huge difference in that everything prior to opening the portals happened in that possible future. They had the exact same history – that’s how possible futures work. Now, depending on the theory of time travel and alternate realities that ArenaNet adheres to for Guild Wars, a number of things could happen:
And a few other possibilities that I cannot think of.
But in the end, the result is the same: the Steam creatures in our world are coming through portals. In all realities, the history is shared – or so all evidence points to be – so it cannot be that they’re modern inventions in one, but ancient creations in another. Given the existence of the Steam Portals, the steam creatures invading from the other dimension is the most likely scenario – resulting in either situation 2 or 3 of above, unless the Steam creatures’ world(s) is effectively ‘destroyed’ whenever they come through the portals.
They probably don’t feel “asuran” to you because they were made by one asura. I mean, would you take the Tomb Guardian in Ghosts of Ascalon to be asuran? Probably not. It was a construct purely of bone and shaped into a naga/krait appearance.
There are always outliers to a race. An individual – or small group of individuals – who make things or have personalities that you would otherwise never consider to be part of the race. Take Uzolan’s golem for example – from the look of it, you’d think it was a charr construction! In fact, when the concept art for it was revealed, almost everyone did think it was charr made.
We KNOW who created the Steam creatures – and it was an asura. This is undeniable fact and there’s no point in theorizing otherwise. Unless Anet comes about suddenly saying ‘he lied!’ to argue it was someone else – but they’ve been doing that so many times to downsize humanity and upsize asura, it would be odd-as-hell if they began doing it to downsize asura and I think they’ve gotten the message the playerbase has sent which is “we don’t like you doing that, it feels cheap as hell when you do it so much.” And although at least two people seem to be believe that may very well be the case, there is no reason or implication to argue so.
Side note: Steam Hulks CANNOT be Earth Elementals. Why? Steam creatures have organic cores to them – Earth Elementals don’t have flesh, they are not organic.
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Okay, two things:
As Thalador said, the thing was originally a dwarven construct powered by Flame Djinn. What Thalador didn’t say is that the steam creatures cyborgs – the Iron Forgeman, both iterations, is not.
Secondly, nothing actually says which – if it were only one – dragon’s energies was used to power the second Iron Forgeman. Just simply that Kudu used draconic energies to empower it. While Primordus is a logical assumption given the Destroyer of Worlds and the pool of lava around the Iron Forgeman, nothing actually says that it was Primordus and we know that the Inquest have access to five – with the sixth being recent thus may not be viable – Elder Dragon energies.
Thirdly, Subject Alpha has very much been infused with Primordus’ energy. He has a skill titled “Teeth of Primordus” which is where a series of “Dragon’s Teeth” (the elementalist skill) fall from the sky, and a burst of fire appears around Subject Alpha – you wouldn’t see the teeth, however, if you stack adjacent to Subject Alpha, which most groups do nowadays. Furthermore, it has been confirmed that Primordus indeed can corrupt living beings – we just never see it happen naturally.
Fourthly, the steam creatures are not a “race” – they are merely a series of cybernetic beings. They are made no differently than, say, the Borg from Star Trek, or even the Husks from Mass Effect – you take pre-existing races and you modify them with technology. Though the steam creatures are very different than either example I gave, the concept is the same. The steam creatures are not their own race – of metal or otherwise.
And finally, the Steam creatures hold no ties to the Inquest. At least originally, as far as we know.
On a side: @Thalador, it was stated – I think by Linsey – that the copies of the Forgeman in Oola’s lab was that she found the Iron Forgeman’s remains and began recreating it in her study of dwarven “golems.”
Technically speaking, charr technology has been stated in conflicting mentions about what it is: Jeff Grubb in interviews stressed repeatedly in the past that it is not steam powered but rather clockwork – cogs and gears. But in-game we see mention by an NPC that there is steam powered mechanics in their technology.
Steam weapons in the trading post are most certainly of charr origins – they’re tier 1 cultural weapons after all.
I heard about that datamining bit from Thalador. Is interesting to hear about and it is an “about time” kind of thing. People have been asking about the lore for ages. Since release, I believe. And we know next to nothing on most, but some have had hints to their lore in-game:
Beyond that, your guess is as good as any other.
You’re far from the first to ask this. It’s been brought up time and time again in the Living World forums. And their response is “we don’t currently have the technology to implement the short stories into the game” (which is a BS excuse, IMHO, given it can just be given the same way The Founding is in Ebonhawke, if nothing else – standard dialogue trees!).
I’d actually be pleasantly surprised if I’m proven wrong. Thus far, all my theories on the living story has proven right if proven/debunked. I would love for myself to be wrong somewhere. Especially if it wasn’t completely lorebreaking.
But you’re basically saying someone who is sarcastic is only pretending to be sarcastic. If you look at the direction ArenaNet goes… They aren’t good at hiding these kinds of plot twists. I mean, look at Khilbron in Prophecies or Abaddon in Nightfall. Everyone knew long before the twist behind them was shown what the twist was (that Khilbron was the loch and Abaddon would be the final boss).
This theory has enough potential that I’d agree with it… If it wasn’t ArenaNet. Or if it didn’t counteract the establishment of Anise’s character. Or if the two looked remotely alike. As is, it just doesn’t seem at all likely and all support for it is extremely flimsy – insanely so.
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Your screenshot? Yeah, I did.
“Who says she isn’t a historian? Given the fact that she’s the master of the Shining Blade, I’d be shocked if she didn’t have a more-than-basic history lesson. At least of the past 250 years since the White Mantle were formed.”
Or do you mean the “…or so I’ve been told” bit? Alright, I’ll give you a scenario that happened less than five minutes ago:
My parents were just talking with me over a family member’s wake I and my father and sister went to last weekend (good ol’ Uncle Sam). And in this conversation we go to the stories of the older members of my dad’s side of the family. One of which is about my great grandmother’s reaction over my grandfather’s eldest younger brother (the oldest of his younger brothers that is). My dad says that my great grandmother was histerical during the funeral, screaming that she hadn’t seen the body and cannot tell whom he was (he was killed in WWII by artillery so it was closed coffin and all). He says she was leaping at the coffin trying to get it open, and ends that bit with “or so I’ve been told.”
My father wasn’t around then, so he can only tell me what he’s been told. That’s all the phrase means. Same goes for Anise. My father isn’t hiding some hidden fact that he’s 70 years old or older. Why would it be any different for Anise? It’s a very common phrase for safeguarding yourself on historical second-hand information for the chance you get proven wrong.
Well, she is a noble, and she was talking about nobles in general. I wouldn’t read to much into it. People would talk like that even if they didn’t include themselves.
And besides, she’s the head of an organization that specializes in covert activities in Kryta (aside from protecting the crowned royalty that is). Of course she wears a mask! I’d be more shocked if she excluded herself from nobles or mask-wearers and consider her suspicious in that scenario.
I explained how the argument is flawed. The nations that Alexander the Great’s own divided into had long since fallen. Modern Greece and modern Egypt are far cries from being the same nations – politically or otherwise – as the nations of that time. The nations that cover those lands have risen and fallen time and time again – and the same is more or less accurate anywhere in the world for such a huge timespan.
However, the Flame Legion in 1 BE is the same group as the Flame Legion in 1325 BE – by all our indication – and same goes for the other three Legions.
That’s probably the most unrealistic thing about fantasy settings. You have kingdoms and nations thriving for thousands of years under the same kind of leaderships. Just look at Europe’s history to see how common such a thing is. Royalty (as in the royal families) changes far sooner than ‘thousands of years’ – if nothing else.
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Who says she isn’t a historian? Given the fact that she’s the master of the Shining Blade, I’d be shocked if she didn’t have a more-than-basic history lesson. At least of the past 250 years since the White Mantle were formed.
And I’m not sure what your A Society Function line has to do with Anise possibly being Livia.
According to Anet’s real lore, their timeline actually has gaps of a few years between significant events recorded etc, pre-game. In the book Sea of Sorrows, we see Cobiah Marriner and Lion’s Arch destroyed from the rising of Zhaitan and Orr, and gathering survivors many things happened, noble life of a pirate, building a new Lion’s Arch, establishing its system and defending against human politics etc with the first battle of Claw Island… these things took place over many years in the book and most of his lifetime. Certainly human-charr peace treaties, founding of a massive coalition like the Pact, the construction of a fortress like Fort Trinity, creating and deploying of airships, helicopters, tanks, and gathering so many troops; starving zhaitan’s minions, they’re not things that happen over night.
Alright, first off, Cobiah didn’t even begin to think about rebuilding Lion’s Arch for about a decade after its destruction. Secondly, he had to build a city from scratch – all he had was the crews of two ships, one of which wasn’t fully allied with Cobiah, and stolen money. He had to buy all the materials and he had to convince people to start living there. And even then, the next time we see the city in the novel though decades had passed, it was a full fledged – though still growing – city. Similar situation with Claw Island – though it was hindered less of “starting from scratch” and more of politics. There has been constant and multi-year long debates on which direction the city should grow in.
The Pact is different. It was formed with a single objective – build a base of operations and take out Zhaitan – and it was formed by multiple groups that had a lot of resources and backed further by at least five nations of people. Building an organization and a single fort in a few weeks with the support of three large organizations and five nations is a hell of a huge difference compared to building a city from scratch.
Furthermore, just about all of the Pact’s technology came directly from other groups – helicopters, submarines, airships, tanks, the fences and anti-dragon cannons… NONE of it was built from scratch. The Pact simply received armaments and modified them with other races’ tech.
And about the peace talks – it took a year for beginning negotiations to arise. What we see in-game is just the start of talks. Nothing beyond initial peace offerings to start the talks had been done yet – the peace offerings being some land given to humans, and the Claw of the Khan-Ur given to the charr.
We know none of that stuff happened overnight, even if we can experience it all within a few hours. If you’re arguing that the game indicates that then you need to realize that time of gameplay is not the same as the game’s time.
This is the same for pre-game background lore which is much more realistic. But once in game we have this time flow all compressed, just purely because of game mechanics, and the need to have content to play and so forth. I think if this was all converted to novels instead of game, it would play out a more realistic timeline.
You can say that for just about any game out there. Dishonored, for example, can be played within a few hours. In-game though, excluding the months/years/whatever it was in which Corvo was imprisoned, it still takes days if not weeks for the whole course of the game to unfold. But again, it can be played through in less than a day.
This is neither unique to Guild Wars 2 nor is it something that is an issue in any way. If your suspension of disbelief cannot withstand this much then you must find every game with a plot that expands past a few hours to be very unrealistic.
@Konig, did Anet actually say that the living story didn’t take place after the personal story? I was pretty sure what they WANTED to do with it (this was at least when we were just beginning the personal story AKA flame and frost month 1 was make it so that the living story didn’t give away the personal story and would -appear- to be side to side with the personal story.
What they originally said was that they wanted to prevent “paradoxes” – that they didn’t want to make the living story blatantly post-personal story, but they couldn’t go about doing things that would contradict actions in the personal story. That what they wanted forced them to effectively avoid what was touched by the personal story.
This seems to have been lost over time though, and the pre-official-LS announcements was that the Lost Shores was post-Zhaitan.
I personally like that they’re not trying to ruin the personal story with the living story with spoilers and the like, but I do think they’re trying too hard to do that… They should just come out and say the LS takes place post PS and be done with it, there’s no way it isn’t doing that anyway, as you said.
They pretty much already did this with Tequatl Rising. In fact, since Dragon Bash they basically said “the Pact exists in the LS” even though they never named it until Tequatl Rising.
There’s a rather huge difference between “the world is not flat, we just found this out” and “the Six Gods didn’t do what we think they did.” The difference is that the former is pure belief that was held together through mythologies, while the second, though religious, was seen and recorded via writing events – and there’s only so many things you can have altered and not realize they’ve been altered.
The “false history” of the Six Gods should be more comparable to our histories of Alexander the Great, Julius Ceasar, and so forth. If not that then the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls which didn’t really falsify the other gospels but showed as a different view which was lost to history. And at best, it should be comparable to Christianity’s rewriting of non-Christian myths throughout Europe (in their attempt to make their faith “right”). The only way that the new records of the Six would make any sense in such huge degrees despite humanity having first-hand witnessings of their actions would be that Orrians intentionally hid the truth; being the super religious zealots that they were, it wouldn’t be too surprising if they had altered the history to glorify the Six Gods. That the human legends were an intentional falsification done by the religious leaders.
But no, instead we get a simple “we learn new things over time, just like we learn something in grade school and learn we were wrong about it in high school” which is not quite what happens in reality, not unless you go to really kittenty (education wise) schools – you just learn more of the topics, filling in gaps that you may not have known to exist, you don’t learn “everything you thought you knew was wrong” – some things, sure, but not that much.
And on top of it, it’s done in such a way to tell us “the other races don’t interact with it; the asura are completely right; humans are completely wrong.” For a “multi-racial viewpoint” game, they sure as hell aren’t giving multiple races’ view on the subject.
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yes but the Khan ur was alive before the year 100be meaning the last time a charr nation was uniting all four legions was 1426years ago, while it has been longer since the Macedonian empire under alexander the great (2346 years), I don’t believe anyone today would call a war between Greece and Egypt a civil war (even though they were both united under alexander the great as part of his Macedonian empire), there has been too much time that has pasted in both situations to consider either one to be united kingdom.
There’s a huge flaw in your argument. That flaw is that Greece and Egypt are not the same nations as those which Alexander’s nation divided into. The charr, on the other hand, are the same nations – and they were also united under the Flame Legion for 200 years, though that’s probably more comparative to an empire with its vassal states having usurped the main nation.
On another matter would you consider Ascalon to be a city state now or do you consider it to still be a nation because of the ascalon settlement in gendaran fields(seems like it is under krytan rule but I believe there was a noble or senator of sorts that didn’t consider the settlement part of their(krytan) nation and didn’t deserve protection from centaur attacks or something along those lines.)
Ascalon I would argue to be another nation still, just without an official leader – instead having a Regnant in the form of Jennah. Ascalon Settlement is, however, now a Krytan town – it just formed as a colony of sorts of Ascalon.
She’s a Soundless by the definition of “a sylvari not tied to the Dream of Dreams” but she’s only that. And by the interview Aaron mentioned, it seems to be unintentional – that she was forced to be disconnected, rather than it being an intentional action on her part done via meditation (which I prefer, as it’s hard to see someone like Scarlet meditate).
A few counter points that proves that Zhaitan dies in 1325 AE and we are currently in 1326 AE:
It’s pretty much all but proven that Zhaitan was downed in 1325 – or at the latest, 1326. There’s also the fact we were told that The Lost Shores is post-Zhaitan, and we know that Dragon Bash had to be post-Pact formation while Flame and Frost (and subsequent Living Story) had to be post-Lost Shores. So we know for a fact that months had passed between Zhaitan’s fall and the Molten Facility’s defeat, let alone between then and the journal having been taken to the Priory in 1326.
The personal story and the open world do follow the same timelines, but they can be experienced by players at different rates and, on top of that, it all more or less takes place before the “Living Story” – even if ArenaNet likes to claim otherwise, it just doesn’t make logical sense. And despite their claim, it is far from a “living world” since anything not touched by the Living Story is effectively unaffected and stuck in time. All of Orr maps are stuck in a time before the cleansing of Orr and the defeat of Zhaitan; as is everything else sans Southsun and Living Story content.
All this said, I’d like to state that I really hate the arbitrary additional 5 days to the calendar. It was perfectly fine being 360 days with no need of syncing up our timeframes. Sadly, that is what the Living Story does.
Don’t think I’ve seen any mention of it, but given how isolated Soundless are, it’s unlikely to me that they receive Wyld Hunts. Now, if they lose the compulsion… that’s just too hard to say. I would argue yes, but there’s no real evidence to support or remove it. Also, while the compulsion that’s described “like a constant itching on the back of your neck” (worded to the best of my memory of original statement) would likely be gone, you’d still know what your Wyld Hunt is (or at least, you’d know what you knew of your Wyld Hunt). So by pure memory you may feel pushed into completing it.
As it is… possibly the best thing they can do is just acknowledge that Southsun is on dungeon scale rather than overland scale, and that compared to the rest of the overland map it just isn’t actually as big as its shown on the map.
That’s the route my suspension of disbelief says. The scaling of the game is really screwy, so I presume everything is larger than we really see it to be in the open world. Southsun seems to be a good exception to the rule, just as dungeons are.
And this goes for depths and heights as much as lengths/widths. I mean, if you look at most of those “rivers” (more like creeks) that you have bridges spanning over, they’re so shallow that unless you’ve got wheels or electrics going over there’s no need for a bridge. And most trade caravans we see are not really wagons but oxen and marmoxen (marmoxes? marmox?). So I just kick in my suspension of disbelief when it comes to sizes (and number of NPCs), because otherwise it just doesn’t make any sense in realism.
That said, it is possible that Kralkatorrik’s domain once would have extended down into Elona due to the fact that the Crystal Desert and Elona are essentially extensions of each other in many regards. That said, it is currently unknown whether Kralkatorrik is active in Elona. It is probable that he/she is not.
Unlikely in this rise. Previous rise, possible due to Glint’s presence in Arah back then and the presence of Kralkatorrik’s crystallized blood in the Crystal Desert. But in this rise, unlikely. He awoke in the Blood Legion Homelands and only flew south in 1320. Now 6 years have past, but nothing has been heard from since. Furthermore, The Movement of the World’s only mention of the ‘desert dragon’ (the Movement having been written prior to any ED’s name sans Primordus was revealed to players) is that it blocks access to Elona. Zhaitan’s army, however, is stated to have been warring on the northern Elonian border.
As for Cantha, seriously, you are talking like the only ocean that exists in the world of Guild Wars is the ocean that houses Orr, and the Ring of Fire Archipelago. Fact is that there is a perfectly viable northern access point to what may or may not be the Unending Ocean in the form of Janthir Bay. Granted you probably have to go through the Jungle Dragon’s or Jormag’s domain to get to it, but it does exist. Additionally the Deep See Dragon is only ONE Dragon. And as near as I can tell it, and it’s minions are aquatic creatures. Meaning they cannot fly.
This means that the airships moored in Lion’s Arch ostensibly could bypass the worst of the Deep Sea Dragon’s minions!
Two things:
Firstly, we outright know that the Quaggans of the Unending Ocean came from the south. Same for the karka. If the DSD was up near Janthir Bay – which was an original theory of mine – then they would have been fleeing from there, not through the Straits of Malchor. They had to fight through Risen forces to flee from the DSD – if they came from the north you’d be complete idiots to go that way rather than further south or west!
Most likely, the DSD is west of the Battle Isles – off of the fan-made maps posted above. Reason I say this is that between Tyria and Cantha lies the Battle Isles, and between Cantha and Elona lies shallow reefs (Between the northwest coast of Cantha and the southern rim of Elona, a deadly sea is troubled by sudden storms and cyclones, hidden reefs, and dangerous sea creatures.) and we know that the DSD awoke in the deepest parts of the ocean – neither place would count as such unless the reefs were in fact krait Deeps since the krait once lived in the deepest trenches of the ocean as well, though this seems unlikely.
Secondly, those airships are not actually moored in Lion’s Arch. That was a non-canonical scene created solely for the sake of a teaser trailer.
Well at least i can imagine Zhaitan and palawa joko’s undead armies warring at the north of Elona, as Zhaitans teritory at its height reached that far.
No need to imagine, as said above, tis a fact according to the Durmand Priory. That’s where the wiki line comes from, in fact.
I cant say with any certainty that Cantha is affected by the Dragons but at least Elona would be suffering war to its north on 2 fronts with forces of Zhaitan on one front and Kral on another fighting the armies of Joko.
Nothing implies Kralkatorrik is fighting Elona.
possible, but all he would really have to do is hang back and unleash hordes of Margonites on them. Unless of course I am very much mistaken as to who has default control over the Margonites now that Abaddon is effectively deceased?
As far as I am aware the Margonites would essentially be immune to corruption wouldn’t they?
After Abaddon’s death, Mallyx took control of the Margonite forces and was using them to usurp Kormir. This is the Domiain of Anguish elite mission in GW1. As far as we know, all Margonites were killed off, re-imprisoned in the Realm of Torment, or very very rarely defected like The Lost and Apostate. There should be no more Margonites in the world of Tyria.
And nothing would indicate the Margonites being immune to corruption. I don’t know why you even began to believe such.
It is far more reasonable to assume that they were simply wiping out the most dominant species on Tyria in a given period. And you still haven’t answered the question of the other continents. As far as we know the Elder Dragons have only ever had any influence on the Continent of Tyria. To the best of our knowledge both Elona and Cantha have always been free from the presence of the Elder Dragons.
This is quite false.
As Faustas already stated, the deep sea dragon in THIS awakening cycle has already forced out four deep sea races which are far enough away from Tyria for only one of them to have been known to landdwellers (as far as we know at least) since the last awakening cycle – that being the krait, with the karka only seen since the last awakening cycle. Thus far there are only seven races known to have survived the last ED rise: jotun, mursaat, Seer, Forgotten, dwarves, karka, and djinn. The last two are not native to Tyria and the fact that they’ve seen the plight of the Elder Dragons shows that not only is the ED threat not local to continental Tyria, but the jotun didn’t know of non-continental Tyrian races surviving.
Furthermore, Jormag awoke north of continental Tyria, and we know that Zhaitan was not always in Arah (as the Forgotten had freed Glint there before the dragons slumbered). We know 2 of 6 dragons awoke outside of continental Tyria and it’s likely that the other four were elsewhere with possible exception of Kralkatorrik during the last rise. Jormag and Primordus certainly had their influence affecting Tyria but we’ve seen little evidence to support them being present there during the last rise. That is, until the end – with all the magic in the world being absorbed into the Bloodstone, it’s quite logical to believe that the Elder Dragons would centralize on the continent of the Bloodstone’s location even if they were originally widespread.
There’s also evidence to believe that the tengu and krait had survived the last ED rise. And it should be noted that there’s dwarven and Forgotten presence on Cantha in the ancient past – with those two races having fought the Elder Dragons, it wouldn’t be surprising if there was Elder Dragon influence on Cantha during the last rise, and that’s where the Deldrimor-looking relics of Aurios Mines come from, and why the Forgotten had people there when humans arrived.
As such, making broad sweeping generalizations (which is actually a logical fallacy) such as “wipe all life” will not fly, when it is 90% likely that anyone who wanted to survive the devastation caused by the Elder Dragons simply had to flee to Cantha or Elona before all mode of transportation between the Continents was wiped out completely.
Glint and the jotun are the ones who stated to us that they wipe out all life. Glint has likely seen the cycle happening more than just the previous. While they certainly most likely didn’t wipe out all life, as we know that life manages to continue afterwards, they have wiped out all civilized life for sure. The last awakening cycle being the exception.
Think of the Reapers from Mass Effect, and how when they return every 50,000 years they only wiped out galactic civilizations. They allowed still-primitive life to thrive. Though I doubt that the Elder Dragons “allow” the more primitive races to survive, they most likely go thinking “I should wipe out all the rats in the world, just to be sure!”
And I’ll just throw your argument back at you:
Making broad sweeping generalizations (which is actually a logical fallacy) such as “Elder Dragons only affected continental Tyria” will not fly, when it is 90% likely that anyone who had survived the devastation caused by the Elder Dragons by fleeing to Cantha or Elona, such as the Forgotten presence in Cantha, would have kept records of having done so.
Heck, species that were native to Cantha and Elona originally may in fact have been entirely unaffected by the Elder Dragons previous rises to prominence!
Djinn.
Yet it would be stupid to assume that neither of those Continents existed until those dates. For reference, Giganticus Lupicus went extinct ostensibly at the hands of the Elder Dragon Minions in the year 10,000 BE of the Mouvellian Calendar.
We actually know – as I have said – of non-human presence prior to those dates. And on continental Tyria too. Thing is, we don’t have their histories.
And I would say it is fallicious to believe that the norn and/or asura are likely native to Elona or Cantha when there’s no point of evidence for either. At least there’s evidence to support the asura having once settled on the Tarnished Coast before being forced out of the Depths of Tyria by Primordus.
btw Konig are you Konig of the wiki?
Yes.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
There’s no reason for them to remove Fractals, so why would they? Also, they’re technically adding adding 5 new fractals, not 2. So it wouldn’t make sense to remove 2 fractals (especially when one of them isn’t a hated one) in this case.
Three New Fractals
In addition to illuminating the strange circumstances of the Thaumanova Reactor meltdown, you can experience two more historical events thanks to further Fractals research. Relive the daring raids on the Molten Alliance facilities with the Molten Furnace Fractal! Infiltrate the Aetherblade’s old base of villainy with the treacherous Aetherblade Fractal!
Two New Boss Fractals!
The Jade Maw of the Solid Ocean Fractal is no longer the only challenge awaiting you when you make it to the end of each set of three fractals! Special boss encounters with the Aetherblade captain Mai Trin and the two Molten Alliance champions from the Molten Facility have been added to the rotation.
3 standard fractals, and 2 new fractals that’ll randomize with the Jade Maw (the Molten Berserker/Firestorm fight, and the Mai Trin fight).
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
My view – The similarity with bloodstones could be that magic was put into them. That’s pretty vague.
That’s my take as well.
They’re both of strange materials and both imbued with magic. Beyond this, there’s no real means of telling of a connection.
And to be honest, I always suspected that the obelisks held magic – specifically I suspected DSD-related magic.
Those look like standard skritt mobs to me.
And for the record, Thaumanova deals with chaos magic and teleports seemingly random mobs to its area. This is the meltdown of the reactor, so it is not unlikely that similar effects will occur during the fractal as well.
very interesting points everyone and thank you, but I do question that all races have the threat of civil war, because as far as I know
1) the inquest is a legitimate group in the eyes of the arcane council, their morals maybe different but they don’t go outside the law (or maybe they just pay off the right people)
2) the four high legions seem to be more like countries then states, as they were only ever completely unite by one monarch like figure (the Khan-ur).
3) I suppose most separatists would be considered Ascolonians, so that would probably be considered more along the lines of war/terrorism, but if there was a bandit uprising I suppose that would be a potential civil war.
4) the other two I agree on.
On the Inquest, technically yes but the Inquest are also hostile to every asura if hostility proved it provides benefits. They are not an outright “civil war” – not in the traditional sense of army versus army, but if you remove Flaxx’s support for asuran dominance over all others, or you remove the Inquest’s effectiveness in obtaining results, then you lose the Arcane Council’s support for the Inquest. The civil war that’d occur is not full-blown since, like norn, the asura are not united. And it would not be armies, as I said, but more of subterfuge and a battle of inventions. Nonetheless, there’d be open conflict. The only thing that gives the Inquest any form of saving grace as a “legitimate group” is Flaxx’s desire for asuran dominance over the other races. He is the sole reason why the Inquest are allowed in Rata Sum and Soren Draa. And outside there? Full hostility with the Inquest.
No one really compared the legions to “states” nor “countries” – I would also argue they are like individual but united nations (no pun intended). So I got no comment on that. Still it would be a civil war among the charr, as they are still united and are a single race. Nonetheless, the Renegades come from the three legions. They are defectors who made their own “legion” of sorts and declared war on their own nations. It would be like if Germany, France, and Italy fell into civil war and one side of each nation’s civil war allied together to form a new nation. Furthermore, the charr could be argued to have been in civil war since the Khan-Ur’s death – the four legions have always been hostile-but-allied with each other; when their leaders’ views coincide they work together, when they don’t they fight. The charr empire of the Khan-Ur fell under civil war with his death and has remained as such since.
For the Separatists – the civil war would be Separatists versus Ebon Vanguard, more or less. They do act like terrorists, but they are separate (currently) from the main body of government of Ascalonians. Ascalonian versus Ascalonian is civil war.
As for the bandits – it kind of has been a civil war for the past 250 years. It began with the White Mantle versus Shining Blade. It has just diminished from open warfare to guerrilla warfare.
interesting had forgotten that part at the end of crucible of eternity, thank you for that. but I don’t think the war between the flame legion and the other three high legions could be considered a civil war, as they had been allied for a time but their period of unification under one strong government(the Khan-Ur) was so short that they can’t legitimately be considered one nation state or republic, it is most certainly a war I just don’t think it falls under the definition of a civil war.
That’s be like saying that Alexander the Great’s kingdom-nation-dynasty-whatever it’s technically called was not such, because it only existed under his reign and then fell under civil war and was divided into collapse. The charr history is the same, more or less, except that they didn’t collapse. Like Alexander, the Khan-Ur claimed large amounts of land and died before naming a successor. Like Alexander’s followers, the Khan-Ur’s four children all decided they should rule and had taken control of various parts of the Khan-Ur’s rule and went against each other for the right to rule. The only thing the charr had to save them from collapsing is an external enemy (humanity).
No historian would not say that Alexander the Great’s nation didn’t fall under civil war with his death.
Yeah, honestly I find that NPC’s line to be very very odd. Other lore indicates that the Dream of Dreams experience often tells sylvari about their eventual Wyld Hunt. Even if they don’t realize it immediately. I even recall an interview which once said that most Wyld Hunts are first seen in the Dream of Dreams (or was it “all Wyld Hunts”? If the latter, obviously changed).
The latter is a common asuran device, seen in a multitude of asuran areas but is still uniquely different from the Straits of Devastation model which is thus far unique.
Technically speaking, Zhaitan is the second Wyld Hunt. The first is the Green Huntsman/Shield of the Moon/White Stag.
And yes, sylvari can receive new Wyld Hunts upon completion of the old. Tegwen is one such sylvari, whom receives a Wyld Hunt to hunt down the risen norn during the Shards of Orr storyline step. It’s just very rare to receive two Wyld Hunts at once.
Who decides what is and what is not Guild Wars lore? The players or Anet? I’ve seen many posts on these forums telling Anet that certain things are not part of the lore. So if it is the players who decide, who among them get to decide?
Getting back to the topic at hand, I’d say Anet obviously holds the IP rights to the official lore of Tyria – both in GW1 and now GW2 with all its retcons. Fans making or claiming the lore is or should be different are simply making fan-fiction, yes, they may be passionate – and even right in refuting certain new lore pieces – but as for who gets to decide – it’s the people at Anet.
Saying that the lore is contradictory or shouldn’t be retconed is not the same as making fan-fiction. It’s just disagreeing with the current direction of the lore. They’re not making fan-fiction until they make their own version of the story – in their head or otherwise. If they simply dislike the direction of the lore, they’re not making anything other than complaints.
How I would have gone about it is this:
And the important part: no one belief would be more credible than the others. The charr’s depiction of them as villainous invaders from the Mists would have as much credibility as the humans claiming that they came as peace-wanters from the Mists which in turn has as much credibility as the sylvari questioning human belief that the Six Gods may not be all they’re cracked up to be. Basically the “facts” we’re given in Orr and Arah would be the sylvari’s suspicion of “what truly happened.”
And then add in some lesser races’ views and have them mentioned more than once. Have Thruln the Losts’ tale told somewhere else by someone else, so that rather than one piece of story that contradicts 10 others which are the same, you’d have 4 stories that are the same contradicting 7 stories that are the same.
This would spark discussion amongst players – which story is the true version? Are they both false? Why does one group have views one way, while the others have views in another direction? Etc. Etc.
That is how I would do the lore of multi-racial viewpoints. I wouldn’t say “the old view is wrong because time goes on and we learn new things about our past!” (Sure, we do, but we don’t in this huge extent and certainly not in a similar way to us learning one thing in 1st grade and learning something slightly different – and more detailed in high school – our learning new things of ancient times is more on par to the Dead Sea Scrolls; finding lost knowledge that doesn’t outright disprove, but questions old knowledge and otherwise fills in gaps that were unknown to even exist).
There is a big difference between making lore multi-racial centric from uni-racial centric, and turning old lore into something completely new.
Up until the Angel McCoy interview, the ancient lore wasn’t bad. It could have been better though, and her interview dealt mainly on the history of magic rather than the gods themselves. Nonetheless, her explanation for why “the lore has changed” was really silly and the side-effects of the differing lore is equally so if not more so.
I’ll do a 180 and play devil’s advocate for a change.
If you were a dev at ArenaNet @2006-2012, and knowing GW2 was going to be full-on multi-racial, how would you go about providing cultural parity betwixt the humans and everyone else?
How would you insert multiple races into a single-race world(in terms of playable races) with their own deities which, let’s face it, overwhelmingly favor that one race?
I’d go the route of Ghosts of Ascalon, Thruln the Lost, and the interviews pre-release.
In other words, I’d emphasize the other races’ view of the Six Gods and how they take the actions the gods did in their culture, rather than diminishing the Six Gods’ actions.
Let’s be honest, the Six Gods not creating magic or the world itself was suspect even in Prophecies, the latter due to the Giganticus Lupicus – their presence would mean that the Six Gods spent over 10,000 years creating the world if the timeline was accurate and there was no reason to believe otherwise. However, there was no need to say that humans were simply brought to the world, nor was there a need to say the Six Gods didn’t create the Bloodstones.
But before I continue, let’s look at how ArenaNet initially showed the other player races’ view of the gods:
In the end, it seems that Anet took the route of the asuran view. It is no longer human-centric but now asuran-centric, as they have yet to be wrong and even Scarlet has seen the Eternal Alchemy and knows-all. With the exception of the charr’s hatred of religion, the other races’ views of the Six Gods have practically all disappeared. Human’s views have altered so much that we even see some humans going “no no, they’re the HUMAN gods, not ‘the gods’” (see the dude outside Arah). In the game, norn never refer to the Six Gods by what they represent, but instead call them by name! And sylvari never make mention of the Six Gods until Orr where they’re suddenly convinced they were gods (see the temples, Arah forgotten path, and the Cathedral of Silence story path if not other story paths too).
-continued in next post-
Unlikely to be the DSD or Mordremoth, since knowledge of either is more or less unknown to the main races of Tyria until the current year – give or take. The DSD has only been “suspected upon” until recently, and Mordremoth’s existence seems to still be unknown by the Pact – at least, Mordremoth being awake (if it is even awake) is unknown. At the end of the personal story, there’s multiple mentions of “four more Elder Dragons” to fight. And even Eir seems unknowing of the fourth as at the end she says (paraphrased) “which dragon next: Primordus, Kralkatorrik, or Jormag?”
This said, we don’t know if any sylvari had seen Jormag or Primordus. But we do know that Caithe and Trahearne has seen Zhaitan (and lived), while Caithe had seen Kralkatorrik (and lived). And that’s not counting those who had seen Zhaitan and died and the unknown who’ve seen Kralkatorrik (as unlike Zhaitan, it’s not said that only Caithe has seen Kralk and lived).
Given that Caithe had seen Zhaitan, and saw the Shadow of the Dragon, I think that if she thought the Shadow meant something other than Zhaitan that she would have spoken up rather than sending a newborn sylvari on a suicide mission (one that eventually succeeded).
This is in fact incorrect. What we have been told, is that the Elder Dragon’s have been on Tyria longer than any of the other races that are currently present on Tyria. This includes the now effectively extinct (save for a Risen example) Giganticus Lupicus who themselves predate most of the other races of Tyria by a considerable margin.
Er, no. They’ve said this as well, but it was also stated multiple times that they have always been here.
I mean hell, watch the teaser trailer – “Tyria. The dragons have always been here. […]” And that is not the only time it’s mentioned.
Unfortunately everything we know about the Dragon’s is handed down to us from their last awakening back in circa 9,000 BE of the Mouvellian Calendar, which was at least 10,326 years ago. However, 10,000 years is NOT enough time for a planet to come into existence. Further, 10,000 years is definitely not enough time for multiple sentient species (Dwarves, Jotun, Forbidden, Seer’s, Mursat, etc…) to evolve on the same planet. And it certainly is not enough time for mystical cosmic forces known as Magic to coalesce into a form that is powerful enough to attract what amount to Draconic Eldritch Abominations. For one thing, Eldritch Abominations are so aloof that it would take magical forces on their own scale to attract them, and unfortunately Tyria really wouldn’t have possessed the kinds of power to attract what amounts to the collective forces of the Cthulu Mythos to their shores.
Ahem
“As a matter of fact, I’m pursuing that line of inquiry now. In jotun stela writings, we’ve found references to a sextet of “swallowers” who are said to have *consumed the world several times over. *"
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scholar_Caterin
A line I mentioned before in this thread. This line proves the jotun had – at least mythological – knowledge of the Elder Dragons rising multiple times. This points to at minimum 2 previous awakenings before the one where their knowledge was mostly lost, as the last is extremely unlikely to be mythological and thus points to at least an age of 30,000 years for the Elder Dragons. There’s also Varra Skylark who mentions the jotun having learned how to predict the rising of the Elder Dragons via studying of the stars, which knowing how to do so means they had to have had knowledge of multiple points of references (thus multiple risings). If they figured it out in the past, they needed at least three points of references to create a pattern. Making, once more, the current rising at least the fourth rising of the Elder Dragons.
10,000 years is more than enough time for 5 sapient races (and multiple lesser races) to evolve in Tyria, because we are relatively certain that the current 5 evolved between the last awakening and now (minus humanity which is alien to Tyria). The common theory is that the magic which is infused with Tyria has helped to speed up the process of evolution, either that or all of the current sentient races were brought out of the Mists by various god figures and such.
It should be noted that according to jotun records, only five sapient races survived. There’s no mention of how many non-sapient races survived. The Elder Dragons don’t seem to care about corrupting rabbits and other small critters.
As to the source of magic on Tyria, it is the Elder Dragons themselves. We’ve had it directly from Angel McCoy that the Elder Dragons seep out their magic as they sleep. This means that the magic of the Elder Dragons is the same as the magic of Tyria. So as they sleep slowly the world becomes more saturated with magic than they are, and thus they seem to awaken in order to consume again.
Slightly false. While yes the magic is the same, the Elder Dragons are not the source. Magic in Tyria is cycled through – passing from the world to the Elder Dragons and back again. We don’t know where the origin is, if either. It is a “which came first, the chicken or the egg” kind of question.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
The seers fell during the previous Elder Dragon rise, and the mursaat fell only in 1072 AE – over 11,000 years post the ED going to sleep. The mursaat fled the world during the previous ED rise, thus preserving their species.
And as said, the dwarves’ fall was not due to the civil war. The Stone Summit lost the war in 1072 AE and got exiled into the Far Shiverpeaks. Within 50 years, they had returned and reintegrated with Deldrimor, before the race underwent the Rite of the Great Dwarf. What caused the dwarves’ fall was that ritual, not the civil war.
And one can argue that the Forgotten have yet to fall – they, like the mursaat had done – merely went into the Mists. It seems their race split into two groups during the Exodus – one remaining with Glint, the other going with the Six Gods. Those who went with Glint have by all our knowledge – or rather, lack thereof – has probably died off during Prophecies by the hands of the PCs during the Ascension tests. But the other group likely, again by all our (lack of) knowledge, still thrives in the Mists.
I don’t really see the modern races following this path. And if any group were to go the route of the Forgotten, it would be the humans. Reason being is that they already have a history of making wars with other groups (centaurs, themselves, charr, tengu, etc.) and they are the most likely to go to the Mists after their time has come – following after the Six Gods. I also cannot see the norn falling to civil war – they’re too independent for this, as are the asura. Furthermore, the only unitedly hostile group of norn are the Sons of Svanir who’d die off with the threat of Jormag. The other races… well, I cannot really see any one race dying off except possibly humanity, to mimic the seers, nor do I see a race fleeing into the Mists to save their own hide (unless you count the Inquest as all asuranity). And on top of this, all playable races have threats of civil war (Renegades/Flame Legion; Bandits/Separatists; Nightmare Court; Sons of Svanir; Inquest).
Those are all “Priory Explorer”s
The mouth is made of one body. I’m sure you’re looking at those small arms on the collars but if you look closely, you’ll see those arms are severed.
And I think the fact that abominations are made in the way they are and that there are no dragons beyond dragon champions are all corrupted from something, I think it is highly likely that Tequatl and co. Are made from sewn together corpses too. Granted, my evidence is the lack of evidence here which isn’t fullproof.
Nonetheless everything here is just pure speculation that cannot be proven nor debunked in much of any way and has too little support for either side. Continuing the debate is pointless because anything I would bring up you’d just go “well it can work still because…”
At least they tried to do something like that when Scarlet says that she will make a special project out of you after the event with the spider eggs.
That line is from the end of Queen’s Jubilee, specifically the end of Scarlet’s Playhouse. A lot of the lines come from her ambient dialogue come from the ambient dialogue in DR during Clockwork Chaos.
It’s been how long and she hasn’t made due on that promise. Hell, she doesn’t even recognize our efforts despite us being the very first people in her entire life to ruin her projects. And that’s where she fails. She had no character development despite her claims for change in character and despite being out through events that should change and thus develop her character. She even now acts no different than she Ceara when she was “born”.
And she isn’t a sue because she is invincible or something. Though a direct fight with her is indeed very boring as Scarlet’s Playhouse showed us. She was a series of gimmicky fightsand none were taken seriously by anyone. But as Drax said, she is far from weak.
As she leaves she said the Krait are expecting their god, and implies they’ll be getting it.
She refers to the Toxic Hybrid at that point.
there wont be another alliance,
molten alliance = red
aetherblades = blue
Toxic alliance = greenall amount to the tricolours, im guessing she used these factions as building blocks to build the ultimate machine, whatever that is i dont know, maybe some sort of doomsday device
Coupled with the keys, you…might actually have a point there oO Interesting idea.
well i cheated xD i just looked at the preview pic for the next LS and saw the Three colours and thought hmmmmm
next preview is fractals. The bottom (red) was Molten Facility, then you have Aetherblade Retreat which is the center left (blue), then you have Thaumanova in the top right (green).
Despite the first two, it isn’t Scarlet related and no Toxic Alliance. This is most likely an unrelated plot.
But it is minor. And saying such a thing will actually do the opposite of what you claim it’d do. It would make people think that the NC force, in that example, is really bloody huge if all those hundreds of foes was just a “small force”. And if they gave a number then players will feel cheated out of their accomplishment. It may work for you, but the vast majority of players will feel like they just got the short end of the stick – putting it mildly.
As to the battle being won… I’ll just point out Khilbron and Shiro. I don’t think I need say more to show that just because you think a plot is done and over with, doesn’t mean it is.
And honestly, whether you killed 5, 30, or 100 foes is irrelevant. What is relevant is the tasks done, in most cases. For example, did you really ever stop to think how important it was how many White Mantle you killed during the end of War in Kryta (if you played gw1), or how many Flame Legion you killed in Citadel of Flame? No, you didn’t. You’re only now complaining about numbers because you’re trying to find any arguement to use against Scarlet, no matter how irrelevant or flimsy.
Per your scenarios – I don’t think Scarlet would give a flying kitten if she even lost a million members of her alliances. She’s not after their numbers, but their inventions. Proven by the fact she doesn’t care that the tower and Hybrid get destroyed. Besides, we have been told the NC numbers are small. Sure, no concrete numbers but that’s so that mechanics and lore don’t outright and obviously clash which they would if you had your way. Your way would make the story hare inferior than it is over something trivial. Numbers of the enemy’s force doesn’t matter – their effectiveness and existence does.
But again, did you ever stop to wonder about NPC numbers before this? I somehow highly doubt it. You’re just going to keep trolling about Scarlet in your claims to be trying to get ANet to realize there are issues when not only have they acknowledge some of those biggest issues and you just hurt the argument that they’re messing up.
Furthering this is pointless so I am done.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
The issue with your theory is that it is so far out there from known lore that it can be neither supported nor suggested.
The only thing I can counter of what you said, eye and mouths are clearly formerly humans that got twisted in shape. If they were flesh if the dragon, they wouldn’t be so humanoid. They’re more than just the souls of the royalty, but their bodies too.
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