Guild Wars 2

Pennry.9215:

If you don’t enjoy the content given, what’s the point of getting more AP rewards? “I must have the most stuff in this game I hate.” Really?

Sadly, a lot of people think like that. They don’t enjoy the game, but they enjoy rewards. So they go after the rewards even if they don’t enjoy the game.

And that’s how ArenaNet’s hooking players. Not enjoyable content or story, but more shinies.

lordkrall.7241:

But then again that have been said more or less after every single Living Story chapter since they started with the living story, and still the concurrency numbers seem to increase rather than decrease.

I didn’t see that during Halloween last year. Or Lost Shores. Or Wintersday. Or Flame and Frost (I did see some annoyance over temporary content but not “people will leave in a few months” – maybe “eventually” though).

Besides, that was before they started the bi-weekly schedule. I think that’s where the obvious “players will get burned out” came, and started taking real effect during Queen’s Jubilee.

Shiren.9532:

The next three months hold the most popular festivals in Guild Wars history. They could have released nothing all year and players would return for Halloween and Wintersday. Let’s not forget that Wintersday also coincides with holidays.

And what happens after them?

What happens if Wintersday ends up with nothing new? Looks like most of Halloween is old except for a new plot – or rather, an expansion of the previously built up plot. Wintersday didn’t really have a plot last year… I don’t expect one this year.

Raziel.4216:

That’s what the skinner box was designed for, except that the analogy worked for the P2P MMOs (you paid for each month, so you had to make the best of it) and not the B2P MMOs, because the reinforcement will be there without a monthly fee.
One could argue “but the 25 AP from the LS wont be there!” sure, you can get that in 1 TA run, I doubt Anet looks at the first day of release to get reliable data.

What data are you using to reach this conclusion “LS is proving to be a larger and larger disappointment” ? The only one with access to real, non-anecdotal (worthless) evidence is Anet, and they decided to increase the # of LS per month, so I doubt it’s dissapointing.

You’re right that I cannot prove concrete numbers. But really, ArenaNet provides concrete numbers with no context. Both are anecdotal. All I really have are my own opinions and the posts on the forums and comments in-game. Which I’ll admit is not the best source of evidence, not by a long shot – but neither is unshared numbers that lack context.

For the skinner box concept – first they introduced AP rewards, you get prizes for getting AP. Then they created LS categories that provide 50+ AP every two weeks. Then they time-gaited by making the meta achievements require daily achievements, forcing folks to log in multiple days for those achievement points they want. They systematically improved rewards to farming, bit by bit, throughout the game. They intended to condition players to go after AP for rewards, to log in daily for AP.

Most achievements may take less than a day – especially the latest update – but look at previous ones and you’ll find… that you couldn’t take less than a day (in the case of Teq, unless you’re really lucky).

Maethor.2810:

StevenMah.9854:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

No, the dwarven means of refining metals had been lost to time.

I sense the backdrop for Legendary Armours!

Oh god if they implement Legendary armour too I will cry. I already am nowhere near close to (ever) getting a Legendary weapon, let alone anything else….

… Despite it being cool if it had a tie to the Dwarves. >.>

They probably will add in Legendary armor, but first we’re getting more legendary weapons and legendary…

TRINKETS!

Yup, the thing which gives no visuals whatsoever will be given legendary versions the primary purpose of which is unique visuals. 8D (well, now also the versitile stats)

They’ll be tied not to the dwarves but to … PONIES!

Yup, all Legendaries from hence forth will be Dreamers.

I don’t think most people voted based on Fractal… I know I didn’t, since I found both to have equally potentially grand and potentially pathetic possibilities (come on, do you really think they’d do a good job of it? Hell, with their current moto, we’d end up fighting alongside 5 midgets with supped up airships and other tech stuff that was mistaken as “grandiose magic” against someone our height in a bionic toga).

Though personally I’m kind of glad for the reduced waypoint costs during the initial scarlet invasions…. that would have cost a fortune to get all those achievements.

That’s one of the theories. But I don’t think you should take their group’s name literally. Seer – like Forgotten – are always capitalized, while other races names (mursaat, dwarves, jotun, norn, charr, etc.) are lowercased. The Forgotten is literally a nickname given to the race because their true name has been forgotten. The Seers’ case is likely the same, as the introduction to them is that the one we met was supposedly a seer. This capitalization may be just a series of typos though since they aren’t exactly keen on consistency in this domain.

This all said, I personally suspect it to be built by a mixture of races – perhaps the original five surviving races (dwarf, Seer, mursaat, jotun, and Forgotten). I think that purely Seer structures were made out of ice and stone – the city of Moladune, never seen but described, in GW1 as a city built purely of ice and stone that disappeared overnight in some distant past (could easily be made to be during the time of the seer/mursaat war during the previous dragon rise) – reason I think that’s “Seerian” is because the last known living Seer (all Prophecies Seers seem to be the same individual) resides near the Iron Mines of Moladune. In Eye of the North, I think we actually see these kinds of structures.

In several of the Far Shiverpeak dungeons, you’d see ice changed into very unique shapes. And among these dungeons, in Raven’s Point and 2 others sharing its level, one can find statues of stone coming from the walls. They have 2 distinct shapes and one of them nearly perfectly matches the Seer physiology.

Structures I refer to:
http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq271/KonigDesTodes/GW/gw082.jpg
http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq271/KonigDesTodes/GW/IceStructures10.jpg

One of the two statues referred to (they’re near each other in the dungeons, sadly don’t have a picture of the other statue it seems – the two are distinctly different, this one having an elongated cranium and more fingers).
http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq271/KonigDesTodes/GW/StoneStatues2.jpg

The fun fact, Redekittens that their background is fully dark – has been since Prophecies (Seared Ascalon, anyone?). Everything about the plot and the background is, even Scarlet’s stuff. But they go and make it comedic to keep that teen rating.

Children dragon minions would likely be in the game if ArenaNet wasn’t so concerned about that teen rating. And I bet there’d be a lot less cheesy comedy and rl references being made. Trying to stick to a specific rating really destroys one’s creating capabilites.

Obsidian, your old posts diagree with you.

Obsidian.1328:

Secondly, the whole dragons-devour-magic thing was a plot device created to further ANet’s thematic style for the game. They wanted to diminish magic and magnify technology. They could have done that any number of ingenious ways, but the fact that they chose the cheesy fantasy fall-back trope of “dragons” makes one want to spam /rollseyes.

Clearly shows you think the entire point of the ED is to remove magic from the lore’s importance.

Obsidian.1328:

The Asura, Dredge, Charr, and Scarlet went the techno route not in spite of the ED’s, but because the ED’s existence allowed them to do so. Otherwise, pure magic would still be the power-of-choice in Tyria.

This further shows you think the entire point of the ED was to remove magic, but also shows that you think without the ED’s addition there would be magic. You state that the asura and charr go tech because of the ED – rather than as an independent aspect to further take the game away from magic and into tech.

Side note: Nothing says the ED are related to the Six Gods’ departure, given how they departed 3 years before the earliest ED activity.

But that was what I was in disagreement with you about – that the Elder Dragons were introduced just to give a reason for all the tech directions the story was going.

As to your final question? In this case, neither. GW2 seems geared around the story that previously-fans-of-the-game want to turn the story into. Aka, they’re taking grade c (or worse) plot material fan-fiction and trying to make it into canon lore. That’s what I see it, especially given Angel’s shown contributions.

During Flame and Frost, the grawl actually said the dredge pushed them out.

Vayne.8563:

The idea of the living story is that it’s a living story…Anet didn’t want to make it so people have to log in to follow the story. It was an intentional design decision so that people who came and went wouldn’t feel lost.

That doesn’t mean that big things can’t happen or won’t happen…but the living story was never supposed to further the main story or be the main story. If you expect it to, you’re bound to be disappointed.

Actually they did make it so that folks will have to log in.

That’s the entire point. They’re “spacing the story out” and will “tell it to us later” all these loose ends they have.

The sad thing, the living story is supposed to be the main story. But that takes a back seat to the fact that the living story is made to keep people logged on as much as physically possible.

I’m doubtful that Tessi’s previous actions will be available again given she’s related to the plot again per the preview page.

Gwen’s buried in Ebonhawke, the city she founded in 1080 AE atop of an abandoned mining village, having reinforced it and stopped many charr sieges.
Vekk has one or two references in the game but no grave.
Ogden works with the Durmand Priory after being stoned.
Dunkoro was in Elona, so who knows.
Jora… well, all we know about her is that she had kid(s) and her actions as fighting Svanir is well known.
Pyre continued his revolution after a while, beyond that unknown. He already had a child before we met him (as Kasha Scorchrazor was born a year after we met him – during the year of War in Kryta/Hearts of the North/early Winds of Change).
Salma held a long and prosperous life ruling Kryta (how long unknown), having unified Kryta for good in 1088 AE.
Zhed was Elonian so who knows really. Heck, he may even still be living – Ventari was called old in GW1, but lived for another 50+ years and Zhed was a mere teenager (17 iirc). There is a centaur catapult with the same name in a Gendarran Fields event though.

It’s a kraken. They were common in the Jade Sea in GW1 – though the appearance has been changed (in GW1, they used typical Phantom/Grasping Darkness models, which were ethereal flying squid-like things). Kraken are also known to live in the Unending Ocean.

Given that krakens are likely typical wildlife, I don’t think it’d be pulling any strings.

The difference is that the Black Moas were a magically-formed evolution, and when they were “extremely rare” they were a brand new species.

Rainbow Phoenixes… Honestly we get no lore on them other than “Even though it’s big, the rainbow phoenix is easily spooked by groups. It was long thought to be imaginary; people who glimpsed its fleeing form would mistake its ethereal beauty for a trick of the light or a mirage.” By sounds of it, it wasn’t “rare in population” but “rare in finding” – very large difference there too.

But point is – Black Moas were never “extinct” or even “near extinct” – they were a “new species.”

Gargoyles just… vanished. They no longer exist except within the Mists – a place where literally anything and everything can come into being (so wipe something out? Well it can show back up in the Mists at any point in time even before it existed on the world – you cannot really call anything “permanently extinct” when the Mists is there.). That’s a huge difference.

Side tangent: Common sense can be argued to not exist, as “common sense” comes from the notion of “what everyone knows” which given how diverse the world’s population and their knowledge is.

I can outright agree this game wasn’t made with the same compassion – or the same business intention, or hell even the same commitment – as the first. And if any of that is the same, ArenaNet doesn’t sell that image. I won’t call GW2 a “sell-out” though – different people, different mentality, different ideals, different plans. A sell-out is when an individual or group caves into the desires of others. Replacement of writers != selling out, just a change of ideas.

I just do not think that the Elder Dragons was created for the sole purpose of turning the game from magic to technology. I’m sure they turned the ED for that. But it sure as hell wasn’t the sole purpose for them, and it sure as hell wasn’t the lore explanation – both of which you claimed – for groups going into technology.

Even without the Elder Dragons, they would still have the tech themes, and it would be fully justified. That was the point you apparently failed to see.

Aaron… did you even read my post?

A LOT of GW1 models are greatly changed by GW2. All skelk, for example. All imps, for example. And drakes.

Using GW1 models and comparing them to GW2 models is not a sound argument, at all.

Monkey Fritz.9052:

Jordo.5913:

while it is true who won the election may not be so vital to the story….the reason the election for a trade agreement with the zephyrites is vital to the story….yet we don’t have the slightest idea why

I can tell you right now it’s just an excuse for them to come back every year as part of the Bazaar. Remember the Bazaar was already shadowed as a (secret) yearly event in a different place every year, but no one had even seen enough of the Zephir Sanctum to believe it was real.

Next year it comes back with the Bazaar because it made a trade agreement with LA…

Even though the whole thing seemed to hint at the Bazaar being a black market of sorts, hiding from the official governments, nobody seemed to care.

Not yearly. They come “when they need supplies” or to host peace treaties.

They may return in less than a year… or in more than a year. Like the SAB. It returns when ArenaNet decides to add them – y’know, when they need a break from the Scarlet Mania (expect it in February).

Jordo.5913:

EragamerLG.2390:

Jordo.5913:

Ellen Kiel wins the election, now what?

What is Scarlet’s motive for going bat kitten crazy?

WE DON’T KNOW!

You didn’t read Scarlet’s short story on the website I presume.
But yes, ANet does need a more coherent story, and needs to tie in each chapter together in a better way..

oh no i read it…how she went into the mists and saw the future of the pale tree being wrapped in thorns, and she wanted to live on her own and not under the influence of the pale tree or nightmare court or Ventari’s Tablet

but Anet has never said, nor has Scarlet said “She wants to destroy them both”, we have had to assume that this is her motive and if her motive is wanting to destroy the Pale Tree and Nightmare court….wtf was she doing breaking up a human event? Other than putting her on our radar to stop her eventually….does she want us to stop her?

News flash:

She didn’t go view the Eternal Alchemy. It was all in her head.

No, I’m not joking. http://wartower.tumblr.com/post/60458277036/this-lorespecial-is-about-scarlet-briar-the-evil

And she messed up the Jubilee just because. Literally. I’m not joking here either – it was an act of a whim.

raahk.2786:

Why would the dredge and flame legion ever become allies? (part 2: why would they follow a steampunk salad?)
what’s the deal with Braham’s girlfriend?
What happened to Canach?
What’s the Consortium up to now?
Why did Logan hire a Mae West impersonator to investigate something in Lion’s Arch?
What happened to Mai Trin?
How’s that trade contract that Kiel secured doing?
What was the point of that cutscene you got after doing what the genie in the SAB told you to do?
How the hell did Scarlet/the Aetherblades get their grubby paws on airships and other pact tech?
Where do their resources and personnel even come from? Where have they been hiding all of this time?

Some of those are answered – in game even. In order:

• Dredge needed magic. Flame Legion needed technology. (Part 2: cuz she offered what they needed?)
• She dumped Braham and decided to go date a merchant from Hoelbrak because the merchant has money. (In short: ArenaNet wrote her out of the story, seemingly).
• He’s in Lionguard Prison.
• Unknown but probably still trying to make profit out of their “cash cow” called Southsun (they’re idiots).
• Theo Ashford was a friend of the family, and he couldn’t/wouldn’t send an official investigation into LA matters.
• She’s still in her cage – you can still find her there last I knew.
• Good question.
• Moto tricked the gullible you into sabotaging an old krewe’s project. If you stuck around after you’d see that they discussed it was him, without naming him.
• They stole it.
• I’m calling mechanics on this. ArenaNet has had a rather big fetish with “lots of enemies” in unreasonable amount ever since Factions. It dropped a bit for Nightfall but picked up afterwards and has kept to it since.

I’ve heard (though I don’t recall this) that they’ve been there since release. So they “were” expanded upon… but then in traditional living story fashion, reverted to their original place.

They’ll likely be like the Seraph Honor Guard. Left to the Void of “forgotten by ArenaNet.”

Demons come from more than just the Underworld. They come from anywhere the Mists touch directly, formed from that protomatter that makes up the Mists.

Also: lol @ Aaron’s comment.

A lot of GW1 and GW2 models are vastly different. Even imps. I doubt you can use GW1 fleshreaver models to argue differences with GW2 models.

@Antara: Doubtful. The location is far off and the Fleshreavers were mainly underground in GW1 – making them one of the subterranean races pushed up by Primordus.

Honestly, their dealings with the Mists is an interesting concept to consider, as it’s remeninscent of wind riders and dryders that are both “native” to Tyria and the Mists (more than just the Underworld) but have no known connection between the two nativities.

Originally the charr invaded the norn long ago – before GW1 – but never put full resources into it so the norn knocked them back time and time again until it became a “you don’t hunt us, we don’t hunt you” scenario.

The charr used that to cross to Kryta during the Charr Invasion of 1070-1071. They then invaded the Far Shiverpeaks due to the Ebon Vanguard – first it was “suspect” then during Eye of the North storyline was “confirmed” (that quest was the first confirmation that didn’t get back, but later it was as we see in the Wintersday quests, the charr return).

CETheLucid.3964:

Zaxares.5419:

Well, given their rabidly misogynistic ideals, I’d find it VERY odd if a Son of Svanir were to willingly follow Scarlet.

The Sons of Svanir aren’t misogynistic. It’s a brotherhood/fraternity in the vein of the Order of the Water Buffalo from the Flintstones.

Women can’t join because Jormag literally will not accept them. Jormag’s corruption can’t take them.

At best, it stunts the female norn her connection to the Spirits of the Wild and prevents her being able to take a beast form.

She remains uncorrupted and is otherwise well and rather kitten ed off about it to understate it (Jora). At worst, she simply dies.

Norn males on the other hand, can be corrupted into terrible beasts.

Oh, no, the Sons of Svanir are very misogynistic. There was an interview with Jeff Grubb, Ree Soesbee, and Scott McGough that said that any female norn who are corrupted just get killed off by the Sons of Svanir. Jormag doesn’t care who he corrupts – and will corrupt female norn if he can, but at the same time he doesn’t care what happens with his minions since they’re insignificant to him in the long run.

Interview mentioned: http://www.guildmag.com/magazine/issue9/interview.htm

Edrick’s existence was known since last Halloween, during the scavenger hunt at the very last (chronological) stop, where Wyn said they would ambush and kill Oswald, as well as his wife and son to end the Thorn bloodline for good, and put his cousin on the crown seeking apology.

@Zaxares: I don’t recall “newborn” and no mention of it on the wiki.

The line said: “Our strength is in our numbers. When he’s dead, we’ll go after the queen and the prince. End the Thorn line once and for all. "

Just “prince” no “newborn son.”

@Gabby: We never learned how old Thorn’s only-mentioned child was.

Grenthblood.1358:

Considering Prince Edrick’s style, I’m going to guess that he shows up as a permanent LS villain. A Joker type if you will…. Scarlet will fall in love with him, and obey his every command, truly making her the Harley Quinn of GW2.

At least then she’d gain some depth to her character.

Reminds me of GW1 male monk Primeval armor.

Andele.1306:

EnemyCrusher.7324:

There is a lore reason against it: gargoyles are presumed to be extinct.

So were Black Moas and Rainbow Phoenixes.

No they weren’t. Black Moas were originally presumed a myth, but proven real (though “native” to the Echovald – in that one had to bring a moa to the Echovald for the dark nature of the petrified forest to twist it).

Rainbow Phoenixes were just extremely rare and legendary… in lore. Never presumed extinct AFAIK.

Scarlet attacks once more. I mean, she’s invaded all other festivities thus far.

And then she picks up Edrick and teams him up with Toxx. After all, she just loves unusual pairings. Did you know that?

If the Great Jungle Wurm is a dragon minion of Mordremoth, then it has corrupted grubs and husks.

Not like other dragons don’t have stationary minions anyways…

Aaron, there is one major issue in your posts.

Imps are repeatedly and outright called demons. They come from the Mists, to boot. Capable of making small portals I think, but main point is that while they are attuned to elements, they are not like elementals that are made from elements. Furthermore, based off the Lornar’s Pass heart, they become attuned to the element when influenced by it – like titans – so their appearance/attunement is based on the elemental magic they consume.

I know fleshreavers function differently from what we know..n but if you think on it, both grow by taking their “element” and magic, both come from the Mists to varying degrees, both are considered demons. The only questions are whether Imps procreate or not (which you yourself admit to mere guessing) and whether or not fleshreavers eat magic.

Btw, there are the fleshreavers in Brisban and they have neither portal nor tunnel. For what that may mean.

^ I think we got actual bounties almost ready too.

On another note: apparently I should go out of town more often… I think when edus joined was also when I left for a bit… The guild expands when I’m not there (do you guys dislike me? ).

There was an average of 6 folks online and repping except at dark dark nighttime hours (like 2 am US time), cannot wait to see how many more when I get back Monday.

She is of the Pale Tree. Sadly. It’s a confirmed fact. And she is of this Pale Tree. Another counter to the Alternative Reality theory is the fact that Caithe knew Ceara aka Scarlet Briar while she was in the Grove – e.g., the first 7 years of Scarlet’s life (or was it 8?).

The reason why the Pale Tree doesn’t just give us answers is because Ceara became a Soundless unintentionally (probably due to the sensory deprivation device used on her).

However they were still wurk-like entities. Always viewed them to be cousin species or some such.

As to those two concept arts being wurms… I can see that for the left hand of the dragon but both were for Zhaitan or his dragon champs (it isn’t clear which but the title of them and Kekai’s later theming of making Zhaitan a dragon made of dragons… Points to the former). Nonetheless though they’re tied to Zhaitan, not Modremoth.

According the Varra Skylark from the Arab dungeon, the last Elder Dragon rise was 10,000 years ago. I think placing it at 3,000 would make more sense for that gap of no history though, but that’s what we got. And if Varra is wrong then shed be the only Arab path with false information.

Everything points to the deep sea dragon being far from Cantha, but in the deepest parts of the Unending Ocean – and the water between Cantha and Tyria is rather shallow so it likely isn’t between the two either.

The likelihood is pretty much 0% chance, unless he was either corrupted by a champion of the elder dragon or he was corrupted elsewhere and moved before the Jade Wind – which is highly uncommon. Dragon minions enjoy remaining near their masters unless invading.

His personality rather separates himself from atypical dragon minions as well. He goes on about dreams and nightmares, and no dragon as far as we know would go that route… But Abaddon rather did. And Lyssa though on a brighter side, I think

Scarlet didn’t become a genius due to the device. She was already very smart. More of a high IQ kind of figure – easily capable of understanding how things work. So she didn’t “become” – she always was. At least when it came to interlocking systems.

She was also always apparently fairly suave… Despite not really liking people (that to me is one of the things that ruin Scarlet to me – somehow for some reason everyone wants to give her stuff).

Then she went crazy.

Actually, they went the techno route despite, not in spite or due to. The two were unrelated, directly at least.

It’s referenced on Scarlet Briar’s GW2W page. But for ease:

http://wartower.tumblr.com/post/60458277036/this-lorespecial-is-about-scarlet-briar-the-evil

There’s two things to really consider for what the Great Dwarf is/could be:

• The legends claim it to be a single individual who created the race.
• But Jeff Grubb said the Great Dwarf is the collective consicousness.

However, there’s something extra Jeff Grubb said that’s often forgotten:

“The Great Dwarf can best be thought of as collective consciousness of the dwarves themselves (indeed, in making the prophesy of the Great Dwarf defeating the Great Destroyer coming true). Has anyone MET the Great Dwarf, and found him to be a real being? Well, that has not happened.”

Or rather, given how Jeff tends to word things, it has not happened “as far as it is known.”

My personal theory is that the Great Dwarf was indeed a singular person in ancient history… but he was no god. Take the dwarfs’ current form – stone, unable to breed, unable to die, and seemingly unable to be corrupted by the Elder Dragons. Makes them great tools against them.

Take Seiran’s comment of the age of dwarven civilization during Bad Blood…

The dwarven civilization lasted for more than two thousand years

This would place their civilization at lasting from ~1,900 BE to ~1,100 BE. But according to the Priory, the last Elder Dragon rise matches the suspected G-Lupe extinction date – 10,000 years ago (well, originally we were told 11,000 years ago, but the Priory only mentions 10,000 years ago not 10,000 BE).

So what happened to dwarven civilization during those 7-8 thousand years? They were present during the last rise.

Maybe for those thousands of years, they were living stone, and thus held no culture or civilization – they were a living weapon to combat the Elder Dragons.

Of the races from that time, the dwarves and the jotun are the only ones without mentioned contribution to the Elder Dragons. The jotun had their knowledge of their age and foretelling of their race, but for such a magical civilization one would think that there’d be mention of weapons they used like the seers, mursaat, and forgotten had…

My theory is that the original single “Great Dwarf” was a jotun giant-king, who created these uncorruptable living stone statues to fight the Elder Dragons. This would explain why they would have had the Sanguinary Blade, as the sword corrupts those who wield it for too long (or who are cut by it) – and it would explain the stone sheath that prevents that corruption.

So then the question becomes: why did they suddenly become of flesh and gain a civilization? Well…. what other event is known to happen around that time?

1,769 BE is the year given to the Forgotten arriving on Tyria. This seems dubious now, of course, but that year – is roughly a millennium before humanity arrived on Cantha (and they were on the world for some unknown amount of time before) so it may be a decent date for when the Six Gods arrived. Why is this relevance? Because Dwayna.

Dwayna and Grenth are worshiped by a select number of dwarves, no other of the Six Gods were. What if the goddess of life, gave the dwarven race the life of flesh and blood? Hence why they worship her (and Grenth by extension being her son, perhaps)?

Though I have my doubts about the last dragon rise being at 10,000 or even 9,000 BE, this explanation – even if the dwarves weren’t stone for those 7,000/8,000 years – would explain a few questions.

Thus the “Great Dwarf” is a twisted tale of the dwarven race’s original form, and the giant-king who crafted them (upon Anvil Rock).

The theory had crossed my mind as well before Scarlet’s big reveal (which was highly disappointing in comparison). I mean, ignoring Scarlet’s actions you get…

Sinister Triad – Inquest, Bandits/White Mantle, Nightmare Court – enemies to Asura, Humans, and Sylvari
Centaur-Bandit alliance – Centaurs and Bandits/White Mantle – enemies to humans and norn (centaurs are also after the norn, but since Kryta’s their ancestral home they put more focus on humans)
Former Dredge Moletariate/Inquest alliance – Dredge and Inquest – enemies of norn and asura

This right there has enemies of four out of five playable races. There’s also hints of ties between Bandits and Separatists (as well as hints of opposition between the two groups), so there’s a possible “enemies of all five playable races” present. This obviously extrapolated with the Molten Alliance and Aetherblades (slapping on “enemies of Lion’s Arch” too). But…

Scarlet kind of destroys the possibility of the MA/Aetherblades/Inquest alliance holding a chance of relations.

Scarlet – though this outright seems contradicted with Twilight Assault – holds a great distaste for joining pre-existing groups. This includes the Nightmare Court. Scarlet would never, ever join another group. She may ally herself with them, and she may use them, but she’d never subject herself to being a subordinant. Her superiority complex and her ego are just too great for this to occur.

About her seeing the mursaat… the thing is, she didn’t really see anything. Scott McGough, in the same interview that talked about her superiority complex and her distaste for joining others’ groups, states that she “may not have seen what she thought she saw” and that the device she went into was basically a sensory deprivation device (jeez, how many times have I had to say this on the forums? I think I’m past 20 times easily… TYVM ArenaNet for not including an important piece of lore in the game/even on the website…). Effectively, what Scarlet saw was 100% hallucination. It was a dream, and not the Dream of Dreams either.

So while there are possibilities for some grand dark alliance, the Molten Alliance, Aetherblades, and Scarlet won’t be part of it any time soon (and if the former two do become such, they’d be going against Scarlet).

And has a laserbeam on its head (attached by yours truly. XOXOX, Scarlet)!

In seriousness, ever since Edge of Destiny I could never view the Elder Dragons as “Dragons” – and Zhaitan’s appearance gives me the same feeling. Rather, I’d call them “Elder Draconic-Looking Eldritch Abominations” (EDLEA). I wouldn’t go to the point of saying Primordus is a phoenix (we see him in GW1 – and of what we see, he seems to have tendril/spikes coming out of his collar bone, and a distinct lack of limbs at where one would expect his shoulders to be – e.g., no forearms or wings).

This is only further supported when looking at some of the Elder Dragon concept art pieces.

I mean, would you call any of these “dragons”?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Dragon_13_concept_art_%28Defeated_Dragon%29.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_%28story%29_loading_screen.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Dragon_01_concept_art_%28Destroyer_Dragon%29.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Dragon_05_concept_art_%28The_Left_Hand_of_the_Dragon%29.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Dragon_06_concept_art_%28The_Dragon_Head%29.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Dragon_07_concept_art_%28Rock_Dragon%29.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Dragon_11_concept_art_%28Corpse_Dragon%29.jpg

“Draconic” sure, but “Dragon” … no, not really.

Obsidian.1328:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The idea of the Elder Dragons is rather good – even if not too entirely original – but poorly shown in the game…

Are you kidding??

First off, it’s terribly tropish. Every fantasy MMO seems to have dragons as the apex predator. Guild Wars 1 actually managed to shirk that stereotype and create original villains. Of the 3 “draconic” beings in GW1 that stand out at all, one was a minor boss with no real story connection(Rotscale), the other two were important to the story, but totally allied with you and acted more as npc advisors than anything else(Glint & Kuunavang). Why bring in huge dragons at all??

Secondly, the whole dragons-devour-magic thing was a plot device created to further ANet’s thematic style for the game. They wanted to diminish magic and magnify technology. They could have done that any number of ingenious ways, but the fact that they chose the cheesy fantasy fall-back trope of “dragons” makes one want to spam /rollseyes.

On the first part – I have and probably always will view them less as “Elder Dragons” and more as “Elder Abominations” that just happen to take draconic shape. I mean, look at Zhaitan. Look at the entire feel behind them. They are less “gold-hoarding dragons” (btw, most fantasy settings have dragons not as the apex of power but as the apex of middle-earthen power excluding the main villain(s)) and more of “beyond-ancient beings of incomprehension.” Their plot falls short in that they made it so easy to confront one of them, and so immediate too. They shouldn’t have had Zhaitan rising at Orr – maybe a champion of an Elder Dragon, but not an Elder Dragon itself. And the statue he asura saw should have been a higher ranking champion rather than Primordus. If they were kept in the unknown longer they would have held more impact. Effectively, “what Kyrel said.”

To your second point – I wouldn’t argue the Elder Dragons are a thematic plot device for that. After all, the asura, dredge, charr, and Scarlet go in the direction of technology without the Elder Dragons.

Tuomir.1830:

Guessed Enemy: Fleshreavers. Sure, we’ve fought some, perhaps threatening but nothing out of ordinary, eh? But those have been scattered and probably young and weak fleshreavers. They seem to originate from the mists, and my theory is that they are demons (not to be confused with the subsets of demons specific to Realm of Torment), as are dryders and Kanaxai. Now, imagine facing an ancient fleshreaver lord, with a body built of countless would-be heroes who tried stopping it.

That’s an interesting thing to note. We actually fight an ancient fleshreaver in Lornar’s Pass. It is never killed…

As to them being demons – Godslost Swamp’s fleshreavers come from the Underworld it seems, and there’s an event (chain) in Dredgehaunt Cliffs where there’s a portal activated that summons imps and a fleshreaver.

I have been tempted to view fleshreavers as an “undeath”-alligned imp, which are elemental demons of sorts (e.g., fleshreavers are to Zhaitan as the other imps are to other Elder Dragons).

Antara.3189:

but just to clarify on the Fleshreavers. They actually were bred from the crazy char Rragar Maneater. He was breeding those things 250 years ago

While they were bred by him, he did not make them.

They date back very far. How far is unknown though. But there is an ancient Deldrimor ruin in Lornar’s Pass (the draconic gate or w/e it’s called) which has an ancient imprisoned Fleshreaver within it (the one mentioned above).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Are there any in-game sources that mention that legend? For all we know, it may be some niche belief that the charr brass has never even heard of.

Never said in game. It’s only known from The Ecology of the Charr and/or The Movement from the World (both being in-universe documents, at least one being owned by the Priory).

So it could have been excluded out under the pretense of the other “errors” in The Movement of the World – the text got edited and re-edited by Priory scholars several times, dilluting the worth. Plus it was made by a modern scholar thus fallible.

No, the dwarven means of refining metals had been lost to time. Though Beigarth said he was on a lead.to a breakthrough on deldrimor steel – which one could argue recently occurred with the Ascended crafting.

Dwarven blackpowder was something the charr used as a stepping stone for their guns though.

I would argue there is a very fine difference.

Though there is little support, I would argue that only Elder Dragons themselves can truly corrupt. Minions take magic and send it to the Elder Dragon, who corrupts then return the magic. Take out the Elder Dragon and your renewable source of corruption becomes finite. You can spread it or concentrate it, but it becomes a limited source.

Furthermore there is nothing to suggest that a minion’s death results in the return of the magic – a dragon’s magic remains thus can be siphoned but what about non-dragons among the minions? Their deaths may result in complete removal of that corrupted magic.

Point being, it’s a war of attrition but they can get stronger as their numbers die down because the remaining corruption is concentrated down. But when it’s gone, it is gone.

In that sense, the “last one standing becomes Zhaitan” is only true in a power sense. Though it can also become stronger than Zhaitan was… But it would still be the final one.

Alternatively, it may be that Zhaitan can be reborn – that it is dead but due to the nature of the Elder Dragons will eventually return.

I’d rather go with the concentration of corruption and magic. Alongside the fact that sans Kralkatorrik (newly awakened and injured) and possibly Mordremoth, Zhaitan is the weakest Elder Dragon give or take, and fighting him cost a huge amount of resources for the Pact. Even the deep sea dragon seems stronger given it pushed out the krait and karka of all species. And Jormag and Primordus had a neck of a long time to build up strength via consuming asura / kodan, jotun, and norn magical items.

Firstly, it is mere human legend that the sword in the hands of a “rightful” Ascalonian king can sooth the ghosts. Charr don’t believe in such human magical nonesense.

Secondly, it has to be a “rightful Ascslonian king” or some such. Jennah, I would hardly call to be rightful to the Ascalonian throne. Her claim pretty much goes back to the first king of Orr – King Doric. And the first king of Kryta, Mazdak, more or less gave up all rights to the Orrian throne, thus by extension, to the Ascalonian throne. Wade Samuelsson is far more likely.

Third, Eir didn’t break Magdaer.

Fourth, gameplay reasons. If that were to happen and the legend true, then you’d have to get rid of all ghosts. That’s a lot of ambient enemies, hearts, events, and dialogue text to remove from the game. And quite a bit of personal story steps, depending on how it is done.

Fifthly, his people are hardly dying just because of him. And the charr on a whole seem far more content to remove the ghost problem themselves. If the charr truly were dying off then Smodur or Bangar would order Rytlock to relinquish his sword. And he does use the sword.

Finally, given the reaction Adelbern had in the dungeon, the legend is likely only half true. I’d argue that it must be Adelbern who accepts the wielded as the rightful king… Which won’t happen while charr rule Ascalon.

Dredge tech is aesthetically based off of the Stone Summit. Beyond that, dunno.

They don’t seem to have influenced the asura at all though.

For Tequatl, I’m thinking it is in the line of all the other theory I saw mentioned – that the risen will get stronger over time – that all of Zhaitan’s magic will, instead of flowing to Tyria, will flow to them. And the fewer risen there are the stronger they get.

Would tie into the Orrian risen getting larger and temple priests getiing stronger if ArenaNet ever wants to do story on those updates.

I’d go the explanation of “ArenaNet wanted a teen rated game” – undead babies to kill would probably made it mature rated.

In lore, I’m sure there’s corrupted children out there. Just as I’d say there are icebrood grawl/jotun/wurms or branded grawl/wurms/harpies.

CHIPS.6018:

However we are not talking about some logical Charrs here. We are talking about some religious fanatics.

Actually, we’re talking about logical religious fanatics.

Sounds contradictory, but it rather isn’t. To quote a Shaman from Eye of the North:

Torg Bloodspine: "The meat . . . the humans . . . are in the south, in the Sacnoth Valley. The Hierophant means to feed them to our new gods.
<Party leader>: “Those are not gods.”
Torg Bloodspine: “Do you think we care? What matters is that others think they are.”

The Flame Legion have a history of proclaiming selkittennowledged lies to keep power. They adapt when their plans fail.

I’m thinking here, the issue for you CHIPS is that you’re missing things that aren’t seen pointblank to everyone. You’re for one reason or another not seeing the full story, and that’s leading to your confusion. While yes, there are some oddities in the dredge and Flame Legion that joined the Molten Alliance… these issues are far from new, so why do you bring them up now? Plus, they are hardly as drastic as you’re claiming. These oddities are far from shaking the “core values and beliefs” of the dredge. The Flame Legion’s core beliefs are fully unphased by Scarlet and the Molten Alliance. The dredge’s core beliefs were shaking by the players themselves before Scarlet showed her ugly head.

CHIPS.6018:

Q: Why would the Dredge ally with the Flame Legion?
A: Because they need magic.

“Freedom and independence from any outsider” is the very core belief of the Dredge. And now suddenly their leadership is admitting that they are not strong enough for freedom? That they need to “depend” on the Flame Legion’s magic to get “independence”?

Think about it. They need to “depend on someone else for their independence”? If the Dredge have any chance of believing in this, they won’t need to be fighting against absolutely everyone and see everyone as future enslavers.

The new Dredge civil war (recently finished) has nothing to do with the people being enslaved by fellow Dredges. That has been happening for ages, well before the GW2 timeline. Sure there are a few rebels that sees this as a problem. But the great majority of the Dredge have no problem being a slave to a fellow dredge, if they believe this eventually works toward a greater goal and purpose.

The main reason for this new civil war was because Shukov decided to rely on Asura technology. To be “depended on someone else for their independence” is what caused this new civil war. Because this, obviously, counters everything that the Dredge believed in.

You got so many wrongs here that I’d have expected your post to be a Wooden Potatoes video…

You really need to replay Sorrow’s Embrace explorable mode, and take a visit to the southwest corner of Frostgorge Sound.

Firstly, the civil war was still ongoing last we heard – even spread from Sorrow’s Embrace up to Frostgorge Sound (though it’s never really stated to be linked, I think, there’s still a revolution there for the exact same reason).

Secondly, allying with the Inquest wasn’t the problem. It was the enslavery. Again I’ll point to SE.

Rasolov’s path was 100% about freeing the enslaved workers.
Fergg’s path was to kick the Inquest out, the entire path and Fergg’s involvement being about the Inquest experimenting on and enslaving the dredge. At the end the PC even warns Fergg about remaining – if its found he’s a former Inquest, he’d be killed for having enslaved the dredge.
Koptev’s path was about the government being corrupt.
Frostgorge is about freeing the enslaved dredge.

So your claim that the civil war has nothing to do with self-enslavery is completely wrong. It should also be noted that the revolutionaries openly accept outside help and there’s even hints that they’ll continue working with outsiders:

Rasolov: I don’t know if the rebellion will spread, but today my friends will be treated fairly. I was raised to hate outsiders and believe that our leaders care for us.
Rasolov: And yet Shukov was ready to put us in chains, just as the dwarves once did. And today a group of outsiders helped me stop Shukov. Remarkable!

CHIPS.6018:

Answer this question: How can an extreme group who believe in “freedom and independence from any outsider” stay together, if they ADMIT that they need to rely on magic from someone else for their independence? Not them mention they just overthrew Shukov for this exact reason.

Once again, the core lore of the Dredge is being ruined by this Scarlet story.

That’s the rules drilled into them, however, with Sorrow’s Embrace we see that belief began to crumble. Scarlet didn’t start the removal of that mentality. Shukov did – and we helped.

Plus:
“For the fire, of course. We needed their fire magic to bolster the collective. With our hybrid weapons, we’d never have to worry about being conquered again. We believed them.
“Shame on me? Shame on my leaders! They let themselves be seduced by power. We were fine until we got greedy. Evil trickster! Evil!”
And so on about being tricked and seduced by the “silver-tongued” city-slicker. This implies that it was Shukov – who was seeking enslaving outside forces – who had began working with Scarlet… and the Flame Legion entered the fray after Sorrow’s Embrace, which would mean that the dredge who were enslaving their own in the first place was also the ones who led the MA.

Again, the civil war is on-going as far as we know. And it’s implied – to me at least – that the MA dredge were the ones that were losing, those formerly in power, who were desperate for power, and despite their proclamations to their people very willing to work with outsiders to give themselves power.

CHIPS.6018:

Konig you don’t seem to understand what I am saying.

Vice versa.

CHIPS.6018:

Q: Why would the Flame Legion ally with the Dredge?
A: Because Flame Legion needs technology.

Konig you agree to this yourself. My point is this makes zero sense if you think about what the Flame Legion represents.

The Flame Legions are religious zealots that believe in the magic of their god. The core belief that holds this group together is the belief that “our god and magic is the most powerful thing in the world.” If they lose this belief, and instead have to rely on technology (e.g. technology is their new god), this group is gone.

The Flame Legion are religious. True. They are zealots. True. They believe in the magic of their god. True. You’re wrong on two things though:

1. The Flame Legion know how to adapt to failures. Gaheron died. He failed to become a god. They’re adapting to what killed him – technology.
2. Gaheron was treated like a god, but he was merely in the process of “becoming” a god. He was not their god yet.

CHIPS.6018:

Answer this question: How can a religious zealous group stay together, if they ADMIT that their god and magic sucks and technology is the way to go?

See above. They realize their mistakes and they adapt. Same reason why they changed their gods from the Titans to the Destroyers. When the Destroyers failed as replacements they realized that they shouldn’t rely on outside sources but themselves, so they focused on turning one of their own – their imperator – into a god.

They are zealots, they are religious, they rely on magical caste system. But they do not remain static. They evolve their weapons to what works.

This has been the core of the Flame Legion since Eye of the North and resolidified with the entire reason why they tried to turn Gaheron into a god. Their lore is not at stake. It is not changing their core beliefs.

CHIPS.6018:

As for assumptions, you are doing the same thing. You are assuming that the Flame Legion can even survive as an united group, when their priests openly admits that their god and magic sucks.

Who says they’re a united group? Not I.

Who says their priests openly admits that their god and magic sucks? No priest I’ve seen or heard. That’s one of your assumptions.