Guild Wars 2

nekretaal.6485:

I have (I think) about 215 hero points. I was hoping to play my Reaper in the Halloween Labyrinth this year.

Unfortunately, that leaves me with limited points to spend after unlocking Reaper (and exp in the labyrinth itself will not help me).

I don’t care about skills, but hopefully, my 215 points can unlock reaper and get me three traits to use (I don’t really care which three at the start, but I’ll need a minor, major, and grandmaster).

I was hoping to play reaper in the halloween content too, but sadly I don’t have WC on either of my necros. Depending on how the elite is spread for point requirement, maybe I’ll give tempest a whirl in labyrinth. I do have WC on my primary ele.

Ranael.6423:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Should also point out that datamining from a month ago put us at 250 HP for the elite spec, which is more than the currently acquirable 214. Which already refutes Menadena’s statement.

Interestingly, if the Hero Point would keep their value of 1, then it would have require for someone with map completion a grand total of 36 new hero point to fully unlock the track. Now it has been "changed to 40 for people without map completion and 20 for the completionist.
They apparently (remember that data mining is not necessarily the final plan … or we would already have VIP) shifted the progression flow so that those who have the 214 HP will not only have to unlock skins but also a bit of the Espec mechanics.

I’m actually thinking their view on HP’s changed a bit due to the uproar back when they announced the specialization changes. At that point, just being 80 wasn’t enough to get all core traits and skills, we needed something like 65 challenges as well. However, the statement was made that those with world completion would have more than enough points for all of the core skills and traits as well as the elite. I’m guessing the change to “ok, u’ll have enough points at 80 for all the core” in conjunction with not wanting people to just unlock everything right off the bat are the biggest factors in the MHP = 10 and 400 HP total decisions.

Ravion Hawk.4736:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Ravion Hawk.4736:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

• Tomes of Knowledge won’t work on Revenants

I’ll 1up you…

Tomes of Knowledge AND Crafting won’t work on Revenants until the account has one Revenant that was leveled up to 80 the “old fashioned” way.

rofl!

AND you can’t do it through EotM.

Which actually gives me another one:

• EotM points now count towards WvW score XD

XP boosters, Guild XP Boosts, XP Banners, XP bonuses (both WvW and Account), and XP giving Consumables won’t work either.

Every account’s first Revenant HAS to actually play PvE.

Oh, and has to complete the Personal Story.

THEN accounts may use scroll and tomes and all other XP items/XP Bonuses on any other Revenants thereafter.

I wonder how many rage quits/refund demands would happen if that were to happen.

I would die laughing. But yeah, they’d never be “quite” that extreme. Even if they did just my base “haha” (tomes don’t work) the uproar would be insane. Mmm I can almost taste that outrage..and it’s not even real yet. XD

Tim.6450:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I am hoping this is the approach they took, and based on the comment of ‘function over frill’, that would make sense.

I think I saw a picture of a the daredevil line where the minor adept trait was on the 3rd place so don’t expect much logic.

I think I saw the image you’re talking about. This one?
https://i.imgur.com/jKnfTdI.jpg

I’m hoping we’ve had some revision since that was found.

Syraxis Windrunner.1973:

-xp boosters will not work for mastery xp

When they were first talking about masteries, this was actually something that was stated. I think it was in a Zam article that Mike Z stated that none of the current xp consumables (boosters, banners, etc) would work. So I wouldn’t be surprised if this was reinstated to help slow down mastery building.

Syraxis Windrunner.1973:

-dungeons will no longer award xp, so as to limit tyrian mastery leveling

I am actually expecting this to happen to be honest, likely as part of the dungeon decentivization. But, that lost xp will likely be pushed into some other content to make it more desiarable – fractals, or raids most likely. Just like they are doing with gold.

Yargesh.4965:

Menadena.7482:

Yargesh.4965:

Menadena.7482:

Morfedel.4165:

I am trying to recall a single MMORPG where an expansion handed out everything you expected to get with it up front, rather than making you earn it. I can’t think of a single one, and this sense of entitlement just truly baffles me.

Entitlement?

We were told what to expect. People planned for that and did the work asked of them. Whether you liked it or not we knew the upper boundary.

Then they changed it. Not us.

What? They did not change anything since they have not until now given a number.

They stated world completion was the max. Until the datamine of 170 most people were assuming 100 HPs would be a good number to guess at. When we saw the 170 (which again many did not believe) and the progression for a typical profession I realized I could not get everything right away but about 120 would give me a good starting build.

No they stated no such thing. Data mined is worthless until it is in the game. They have said this many, many times.

Should also point out that datamining from a month ago put us at 250 HP for the elite spec, which is more than the currently acquirable 214. Which already refutes Menadena’s statement.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

It could well be set up to be front loaded in that the easiest things to get are the traits and skills. The part that requires the most points could be the cosmetic items and runes. This setup is actually how they have most of the game set up. You get the core skills and traits before you reach 80, way before level 80 for parts of it. But to make your char look good and get cosmetics is the grindy part. I have a feeling that most of the people who play the game can get the important parts unlocked at launch with the full unlock optional.

I am hoping this is the approach they took, and based on the comment of ‘function over frill’, that would make sense.

Ravion Hawk.4736:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

• Tomes of Knowledge won’t work on Revenants

I’ll 1up you…

Tomes of Knowledge AND Crafting won’t work on Revenants until the account has one Revenant that was leveled up to 80 the “old fashioned” way.

rofl!

AND you can’t do it through EotM.

Which actually gives me another one:

• EotM points now count towards WvW score XD

Toss up between human or sylvari first. I have 3 planned in total.

Tim.6450:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

• should have all traits and skills unlocked right around the 200 point mark

This is just plain wrong.

ColinJohanson.2394:

It’s 400 points total to unlock everything in an elite spec training line – I just can’t remember off hand how many points folks have currently if they have done all the existing ones, but it’s right around 200. The rest you’ll need to earn in jungle to unlock the deeper skills/traits/etc. in the training line.

You only need 60 hero points to begin using your elite spec, the points you spend after that continue to unlock more skills, traits, skins, etc.

Again, hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. So no you don’t need to go do 200-400 jungle challenges.

Alright so I didn’t remember that one correctly. Doesn’t kill the theory completely.

Oh boy… lets have some fun with this…

• Tomes of Knowledge won’t work on Revenants
• Elite specs will have to be unlocked in PvP via gold
• Server merges or WvW no longer server based. Now color based, like EotM
• Scarlet’s Holo Fight, Nightmare Incarnate, and Marionette are new fractal dungeons. Additionally, Marionette becomes a new Guild Event (req 150 ppl to complete)

Still brainstorming other ones…

Just a flesh wound.3589:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I’ve said this in another thread, but I’ll reiterate here.

I think we need to stop looking at the “400” number and look at the assorted comments that have been made:

• 60 points to start using our elite
• should have all traits and skills unlocked right around the 200 point mark
• Skills and traits will unlock first (function over frill)

Personally, I’m thinking we need the standard 145 points for a spec/trait line unlock (60 + 85 respectively) plus the base 60 to get started, puts us at 205 points for the elite spec itself. That leaves 195 points for the unique skins and other fluff, which we can do at our leisure later on. Granted it’s just speculation based on the comments made, but if this is how it works out, it’s not terrible. Anyone that has map completion will essentially be set. People that have absolutely no HP need 21 maguuma challenges (or 20 + 5 core). WvWers need like 100-ish ranks (this might be the worst option for point acquisition, not sure how long typical wvw rank acquisition takes. i get 2 per hour in eotm usually. But, I digress. ).This seems relatively acceptable, in terms of effort required to unlock the elite functionality.

^

The sanest person on this thread. ^^

I doubt that unlocking the elite spec is going to be near as hard as people are fearing. If you already have hero points done then those will go towards unlock. A fair portion of the unlock may be going towards cosmetic fluff. It’s quite likely that the majority of people can unlock it at minumum just at login and others will be able to unlock the basic part at login or shortly after. The rest will be grinding for cosmetics.

Lol to be fair, when I first saw the “it takes 400” comments, I did have to sit down for a minute. It took me a bit to step back and look at the assorted comments objectively.

Kitta.3657:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

insanemaniac.2456:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

misterdevious.6482:

“Again, hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. So no you don’t need to go do 200-400 jungle challenges.” -Colin

That makes things much better. Spending badges on the jungle challenges will be a much better investment.

lol

Just 200 ranks and 6000 badges to get all 40 challenges… iirc

i have the distinct feeling that proofs will not be strictly tied to ranking up.

The blog didn’t mention other means, but always possible.

Kitta.3657:

“Just” 200?

You gotta realize that is for every character (math isn’t verified yet though) and it only encourages one type of gameplay in WvW and it is NOT good for the gamemode.
It’s very artificial overall and it’s basically a grind. I don’t see any meaningful progression out of this.

Note the “lol” There was some mild sarcasm there.

Well I thought it was a lol @ the people kittening about it rather than lol @ what they were gonna say next.

Twas a little of both actually.

But, I understand the outrage to an extent. 400 is a big number, especially to just drop on people. I know I forgot how to breathe there for a minute. After taking into consideration the number of characters I currently have, even if I just did the primary one for each class…yeah, I had to sit down.

Still, it’s not too terrifying if I look at it from the perspective that I only need roughly half of the points to unlock the elite’s full functionality. It’s still freaking daunting, but not as bad.

I’ve said this in another thread, but I’ll reiterate here.

I think we need to stop looking at the “400” number and look at the assorted comments that have been made:

• 60 points to start using our elite
• should have all traits and skills unlocked right around the 200 point mark
• Skills and traits will unlock first (function over frill)

Personally, I’m thinking we need the standard 145 points for a spec/trait line unlock (60 + 85 respectively) plus the base 60 to get started, puts us at 205 points for the elite spec itself. That leaves 195 points for the unique skins and other fluff, which we can do at our leisure later on. Granted it’s just speculation based on the comments made, but if this is how it works out, it’s not terrible. Anyone that has map completion will essentially be set. People that have absolutely no HP need 21 maguuma challenges (or 20 + 5 core). WvWers need like 100-ish ranks (this might be the worst option for point acquisition, not sure how long typical wvw rank acquisition takes. i get 2 per hour in eotm usually. But, I digress. ).This seems relatively acceptable, in terms of effort required to unlock the elite functionality.

Personally, I don’t think I have an issue with the number of points needed (maybe, we’ll see). I think they could have broken it to us a bit better (and sooner). That was one heck of a bomb shell, even for some of us that have been gathering HPs.

insanemaniac.2456:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

misterdevious.6482:

“Again, hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. So no you don’t need to go do 200-400 jungle challenges.” -Colin

That makes things much better. Spending badges on the jungle challenges will be a much better investment.

lol

Just 200 ranks and 6000 badges to get all 40 challenges… iirc

i have the distinct feeling that proofs will not be strictly tied to ranking up.

The blog didn’t mention other means, but always possible.

Kitta.3657:

“Just” 200?

You gotta realize that is for every character (math isn’t verified yet though) and it only encourages one type of gameplay in WvW and it is NOT good for the gamemode.
It’s very artificial overall and it’s basically a grind. I don’t see any meaningful progression out of this.

Note the “lol” There was some mild sarcasm there.

Kayberz.5346:

You just said fractal skins dont require an alternative method of acquisition because its just a skin. But thats essentialy exactly what legendarys are. They dont need another alternative because they are just an ascended with a fancy skin. The stat changing is pointless and hardly ever used. Just make ascended with every stat combo and there you go.

The first wave of legendary s is a really bad example because the whole reason this new wave of legendarys is having its acquisition method changed is because the first set didnt align with anets goal for what legendarys should be and were essentially just buyable with gold instead of through dedicated gameplay like they were intended to be

Legendaries, while the same stats as ascended, are not just skins because they offer additional functionality. If they did not have the stat swapping, then yes, it wouldnt matter. It doesn’t matter if you feel the stat changing is pointless, or if you don’t use it. The point is that they are not just skins.

Now if raids have one legendary skin, and alternatives had other specific skins for their legendary sets, that’d be fine too. The issue arises in that there are no other legendary sets, nor options to achieve them.

maddoctor.2738:

Of course you don’t need all of them. But utilizing just one or two, like with Jumping Puzzles doesn’t exactly scream “difficulty”. Unless we are talking about some really hard jumping puzzles, like the Not So Secret one. That would be a fun question, would people find the Not So Secret jumping puzzle or the Raid, maybe I will make a poll after the Raids are released and get some answers :P

Thus the whole point I was making. Yes, they’d have to be new, difficult puzzles. Things that couldn’t be cheesed with mesmer portal, like Not So Secret can be (though admittedly I thank mesmers that portal me for that crazy thing). So yes, it comes down to which play style do you prefer, not which is easier or less work.

misterdevious.6482:

“Again, hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. So no you don’t need to go do 200-400 jungle challenges.” -Colin

That makes things much better. Spending badges on the jungle challenges will be a much better investment.

lol

Just 200 ranks and 6000 badges to get all 40 challenges… iirc

I do agree that part of the reason we’re here is because of the more ‘traditional’ MMOers not being able to cope with easily obtained lvl caps and max gear, but not completely. Part of the issue was lack of things to keep those people busy when they got that far, we should know better by now that people just don’t know how to entertain themselves without a carrot.

On the other hand, some grind is indeed necessary, though they might be going a bit overboard. We’ll have to see how long it actually takes people to start achieving some of these things before we judge too harshly.

maddoctor.2738:

Let’s say that the raid is difficult for 90% of the population and easy mode for only the 10%. For your alternatives to be “same difficulty” they need to be the same, I really doubt removing all aspects of difficulty, no reflex, no teams, no coordination, no builds, no nothing, and replacing them with “grind” will have any effect like that.

You can have the same difficulty without the same requirements though. That’s where your hitch seems to be. Difficult content doesn’t have to be team based. It doesn’t have to be about reaction time. Or pattern memorization specifically. Those are all assorted components that can be used to affect difficulty, but aren’t all necessarily required. Nor did I say to remove all of the aspects except grind, though that is surely an option in and of itself. Extensive grind can test anyone’s fortitude.

maddoctor.2738:

For the record, I was never against alternatives. I’m against having alternatives in every piece of content possible. And also, I never understand why everyone is only talking about raids in discussions like this, as if Raids is the only content that has unique rewards. As if the rest of the game doesn’t have any kind of unique reward but somehow it is bad only for Raids to have them.

No, you can’t have alternatives to every piece of content out there, I suppose. However, we typically have more than one option to achieve the high end functional goals. Ascended gear for example – you can craft it, or you can hope for a drop. Legendary weapons (gen 1) you can buy it, farm your life away and craft it, or pray to rngesus it drops. With Hot, you have new collections. Dungeon rewards you can earn by running the dungeons or by playing pvp. Just to give a few examples.

For something like the fractal specific skins, no alternative is necessary, because it’s a skin.

Raids are presently the point of contention not because of what they are, but because of what they offer with 0 alternatives to obtaining those offers. If they offered just a fancy skin, it would be far less of an issue.

Even with the new legendary components from wvw and pvp are at least purchasable if you can’t/don’t do those modes. (Not my preferred alternative, but an alternative none the less)

Hexalot.8194:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Hexalot.8194:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Thuggernaut.1250:

I thought the original story was that any character with map completion would have enough points to fully unlock the elite spec, no additional hero points required.

First Ascended armor necessary for raids, now this. And the grind for WvWers is even worse. Might as well just PvE. WvW will be dead for a few weeks if this is the case.

Grind Wars 2.

That was before the change that just getting to 80 was enough to unlock all the core skills and traits. The original statement was that characters with map completion would have enough for the core and the elite. The latter likely changed when they former was changed, and it’s probably still mostly true. They’ve said that skills and traits will be unlocked first (function over frill). So you’ll probably actually be able to get all of the skills and traits in the first 200-ish points. We shall see.

Colin mentioned that it took 60 HPs just to unlock the first minor trait in the elite spec. If it’s spaced out that way, I highly doubt 140 points is going to be enough to unlock the rest of the trait plus utility skills.

I don’t see why it wouldn’t be. It currently costs 145 points to unlock 1 spec and one trait line that contains an elite skill. If we apply that 145 points, plus Colin’s statement of 60 points to “start using” the spec, that puts us at 205 points. Which leaves 195 points in which to spread out the new armor piece, weapon skin, rune, etc. Which, if that’s the way it works out, I could live with it. Even if it will be tedious to do on multiple characters.

Still, unless Colin offers us more info (ha ha), all we can do is wait and see.

Oh I could live with that as well. But ANET seems to be making it quite clear that they don’t want anyone unlocking elite specs within the first minute of launch. With what you’re saying, people with World Completion (roughly 215 pts I believe) are going to be doing just that.

214, but yeah. I don’t understand that particular stance…well I do, but I don’t see the big issue. Its not like people don’t have other crap they need to grind out. Besides, pvp gets the elites handed to them.

maddoctor.2738:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

So, see the issue with the general logic you and others are trying to apply here?

The “logic” is very simple. You and others say “I want an alternative, and alternatives can be the same difficulty”. I say having same difficulty alternatives is simply impossible. Nothing to do with Raids. Raids is new content, and as they’ve always done, new content gets new unique rewards, isn’t that how it always worked since release? Will the raid be easy for some people? Yes. Will it be hard for others? Yes.

If the same difficulty is impossible, then difficult content in general is an impossibility. By you own words, raids will be hard for some, easy for others. You agree there. Therefore raids cannot exists as ‘difficult’ content cannot truly exist. By your own words, its an impossibility. So, scrap em. Now you’re desiring raids and items locked behind raids becomes nothing more than what you’re accusing others of – selfishness.

Hexalot.8194:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Thuggernaut.1250:

I thought the original story was that any character with map completion would have enough points to fully unlock the elite spec, no additional hero points required.

First Ascended armor necessary for raids, now this. And the grind for WvWers is even worse. Might as well just PvE. WvW will be dead for a few weeks if this is the case.

Grind Wars 2.

That was before the change that just getting to 80 was enough to unlock all the core skills and traits. The original statement was that characters with map completion would have enough for the core and the elite. The latter likely changed when they former was changed, and it’s probably still mostly true. They’ve said that skills and traits will be unlocked first (function over frill). So you’ll probably actually be able to get all of the skills and traits in the first 200-ish points. We shall see.

Colin mentioned that it took 60 HPs just to unlock the first minor trait in the elite spec. If it’s spaced out that way, I highly doubt 140 points is going to be enough to unlock the rest of the trait plus utility skills.

I don’t see why it wouldn’t be. It currently costs 145 points to unlock 1 spec and one trait line that contains an elite skill. If we apply that 145 points, plus Colin’s statement of 60 points to “start using” the spec, that puts us at 205 points. Which leaves 195 points in which to spread out the new armor piece, weapon skin, rune, etc. Which, if that’s the way it works out, I could live with it. Even if it will be tedious to do on multiple characters.

Still, unless Colin offers us more info (ha ha), all we can do is wait and see.

Mala.3861:

LanfearShadowflame.3189

To be fair, they told us that elite specs would require Hero Points to unlock, all the way back when they did the last trait system change (to specializations). People have speculated that we would need at least 145 points (the current cost of a spec and skill line that contains an elite skill) for the elite spec. They never retracted that statement, only further enforced it, that HPs would be necessary. So people have been doing hero challenges in preparation.

We just weren’t expecting it to cost quite that much….

Yes, I knew it would require hero points but I didn’t realize I would have to have every other thing trained before even starting on the Elite spec, right? For example I only ever use my elementalist’s Fire and Water skill lines and have never trained heavily in the Earth or Air areas. So, the skill points I assumed I could use for the Elite will now have to be flushed down the lines I have desire for or need of.

Lol that would be covered under my “we weren’t expecting it to cost quite so much” statement. Having to have everything else unlocked first is part of the cost.

But, I completely understand where you’re coming from.

Thuggernaut.1250:

I thought the original story was that any character with map completion would have enough points to fully unlock the elite spec, no additional hero points required.

First Ascended armor necessary for raids, now this. And the grind for WvWers is even worse. Might as well just PvE. WvW will be dead for a few weeks if this is the case.

Grind Wars 2.

That was before the change that just getting to 80 was enough to unlock all the core skills and traits. The original statement was that characters with map completion would have enough for the core and the elite. The latter likely changed when they former was changed, and it’s probably still mostly true. They’ve said that skills and traits will be unlocked first (function over frill). So you’ll probably actually be able to get all of the skills and traits in the first 200-ish points. We shall see.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

There is a LOT of misinformation in this thread…

1. Traits and skills are unlocked separately. There is one line for skills and one line for traits. Open up your hero panel and take a look.

2. The 400 points includes the following:
-3 minor traits
-9 major traits
-4 skills
-1 heal
-1 elite
– 6 runes
-1 sigil
-1 weapon skin
-1 armor skin

The initial investment is 60 points to unlock the trait line, after that we don’t know how the points are distributed. However we know that spending 400 points unlocks all that, so you will not need all the points. I suspect you will need ~170 points to unlock all the traits as this is what was previously datamined. The unique weapon and armor skins will likely take a larger amount of points.

They are also called ELITE specs, not CASUAL AUTO UNLOCKED SPECS.

Datamined isn’t the point this should have been clearly laid out months ago so people actually had the opportunity to work towards this, not dropped onto the community 3 days before the expansion, that’s just bs.

To be fair, they told us that elite specs would require Hero Points to unlock, all the way back when they did the last trait system change (to specializations). People have speculated that we would need at least 145 points (the current cost of a spec and skill line that contains an elite skill) for the elite spec. They never retracted that statement, only further enforced it, that HPs would be necessary. So people have been doing hero challenges in preparation.

We just weren’t expecting it to cost quite that much….

maddoctor.2738:

So, since difficulty is indeed relative from person to person, how are you going to keep the different types of content at the same difficulty? Sounds like an impossibility.

By this general logic we shouldn’t have raids then either, since some will find them “easy” and others will find them “hard.” So either nix them, or don’t give them any unique rewards.

So, see the issue with the general logic you and others are trying to apply here?

maddoctor.2738:

But the most interesting part is that you are giving some very high “grind” requirements, like 100 runs. Others don’t want them as high.

Some people don’t like grind, so they want a different avenue. That’s them, which is fine, and there is probably some option with a lower amount of necessary repetition out there for them. Might be raids, might be something like gauntlet, might be something like fractal currency.

Other people don’t mind putting in the time to grind something out. Having to do 100 runs, or 100 pvp matches won, or whatever.

And then there are those that do a little bit from each option to keep it fresh.

Who are you to determine how someone should enjoy their game play?

Astralporing.1957:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Of course the ‘difficulty’ factor is always relative from person to person. Some people found Liadre easy, others did not. Some people consider Arah difficult, other people solo it. Some people think Fractal 50 is hard, others sell it on the LFG regularly.

And some would consider raids to be easier than some of those mentioned.

Right, thus the whole point about difficulty being a relative thing from person to person. Which further simply supports that having more options so that people can choose how they want to go about achieving a desired goal isn’t a bad thing.

Hexalot.8194:

briggah.7910:

Hexalot.8194:

briggah.7910:

400 to unlock everything so unless you start at level 1 its not as bad as it looks. I have 1 toon with 100% map and unlocked everything so far and I have 204 unspent HP..

Hmmm… you do realize it’s 400 hero points per character, right ? ;-)

Yes, I just logged into the toon I had the most things completed on to actually see how many points I had left over. I have 7 unspent points on an alt that has everything unlocked and only 3% map complete.

I dunno. 400 seems big at first but I’m just saying it might not be as bad as it sounds.

As I was saying in another post, some of those 10 hero point challenges in the Jungle might very well be locked behind masteries (gliding, jumping, etc…) in that you may have to level those masteries before you can even reach some of them. Oh well… at least you can grind it in EOTMs if you are a WvWer.

Undoubtedly some will be locked behind masteries in order to be able to get to them. We’ll have to see just how many though. Depending on how things are laid out, it might be possible to get a good chunk of them via basic HoT play, and then fill in the gaps with some of the easier to grab core challenges. Colin did say that there were enough HoT challenges to cover the full 400 points if you had none from the core game.

Still though, even not being a WvWer, I’ll probably be in EotM quite a lot…

maddoctor.2738:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

It can be done. Many of you just don’t want more than one option because you’re straight up opposed to someone else being able to achieve the same shiny in another manner. Regardless of whether or not its equally difficult or super grindy.

Of course it can be done, the question is how to keep their difficulty the same.
Ways to make content more difficult:
twitch gameplay, faster reflexes
require more players
require more time/dedication to complete (time to complete one run, not repetitions)
require more specific builds and equipement
require lots of teamwork and coordination
there might be more but those are the ones I can think off right now.

Some people don’t have the fastest reflexes, so they don’t want twitch game play, fine. Give them some long arduous massively expensive collection to complete.

Fine, you will remove number one from above. Is that collection going to require all the rest?

Some people like platforming, bury components in new difficult jumping puzzles that can’t be portaled and make it so they have to do the puzzle a few hundred times to get all the components

So you keep number one this time (difficult jumping puzzles require reflexes) and remove everything else.

What about content that requires everything on the list? How are you going to keep the difficulty the same then?

I didn’t say if you removed one component, you couldn’t compensate via other components. For the collection I did cite “long” “arduous” and “expensive.” That would cover time, dedication, and grind components would it not? The jumping puzzle would require twitch game play, as well as grind (see the part about repeating it a few 100 times) in addition to time gating, considering JP rewards are once a day, per character. Granted, you could cut that down potentially by running multiple alts through, but then you’re getting into the dedication factor, unless they locked those rewards to once per day per account (which could be done). Something like the Gauntlet would meet most of your requirements, sans team play.

Of course the ‘difficulty’ factor is always relative from person to person. Some people found Liadre easy, others did not. Some people consider Arah difficult, other people solo it. Some people think Fractal 50 is hard, others sell it on the LFG regularly.

briggah.7910:

Hexalot.8194:

briggah.7910:

400 to unlock everything so unless you start at level 1 its not as bad as it looks. I have 1 toon with 100% map and unlocked everything so far and I have 204 unspent HP..

Hmmm… you do realize it’s 400 hero points per character, right ? ;-)

Yes, I just logged into the toon I had the most things completed on to actually see how many points I had left over. I have 7 unspent points on an alt that has everything unlocked and only 3% map complete.

I dunno. 400 seems big at first but I’m just saying it might not be as bad as it sounds.

It’s probably not, but that’s still a big number to just drop on people. I mean, if you do just HoT scrolls, that means you only need 40 (per character). (That’s a quite a few wvw ranks) It’s just a bit of a shocker.

Clownmug.8357:

What happened to 170 points?! You maniacs! You blew it up!

About a month ago, datamining was saying 250 HP.

Today, Colin confirms 400.

Oh dear…EotM is looking better and better….

maddoctor.2738:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

You just have to make sure 1 path is not easier than any other path.

How exactly are you going to keep all paths on the same difficulty? All I’ve read so far is ways to reduce the difficulty, not keep it the same. Remove twitch gameplay (timing/dodging), remove the amount of players needed (can do it solo), remove the time requirement (can farm on your own time at small intervals), remove build requirement (can do it in any type of gear with any stat combinations), remove teamwork and coordination (same as removing the need for more people) and replace ALL that with extra repetition. If you keep all the above the same, then why add multiple paths anyway, if they will be the same? If you have a way of keeping the different paths on the same difficulty but while preserving all the aspects of difficulty (as explained above) then do tell.

Just because it can be done solo doesn’t mean it can’t be difficult. Liadre (before the life steal was found, and after it was fixed) would be considered difficult by many. Granted it was just a matter of learning and timing the pattern, but that’s all the raids are as well. They just require more people.

Some people don’t have the fastest reflexes, so they don’t want twitch game play, fine. Give them some long arduous massively expensive collection to complete.

Some people like platforming, bury components in new difficult jumping puzzles that can’t be portaled and make it so they have to do the puzzle a few hundred times to get all the components

It can be done. Many of you just don’t want more than one option because you’re straight up opposed to someone else being able to achieve the same shiny in another manner. Regardless of whether or not its equally difficult or super grindy.

ColinJohanson.2394:

PlatinumMember.5274:

Unless I am mistaken just to unlock half of the training line, we need 212 hero points?

It’s 400 points total to unlock everything in an elite spec training line – I just can’t remember off hand how many points folks have currently if they have done all the existing ones, but it’s right around 200. The rest you’ll need to earn in jungle to unlock the deeper skills/traits/etc. in the training line.

You only need 60 hero points to begin using your elite spec, the points you spend after that continue to unlock more skills, traits, skins, etc.

Again, hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. So no you don’t need to go do 200-400 jungle challenges.

400 hero points? Please, for the love of Dwayna, tell me you’re joking.

60 points to “start” using it. Assuming 145 at that point to unlock all the skills and traits (as with other lines), not including any ‘extras’ that might be sprinkled in to further delay unlocking just the functionality… you’re talking 200 points for just frills!? Granted, that’s only 20 challenges in the new zones (IF you have essentially all of the core challenges)…

OMG my head hurts. Even if I don’t do secondary alts, only the primaries of each class that I want to spec…

…I think I need to sit down.

Grymlocke.1067:

@Lanfear, cheers for info

@DTATL

rewards tracks…… being PVP? or reward tracks in the new area?

This was posted by Colin about half an hour ago in the HoT forum:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Unlocking your elite spec is a training line in your training panel that costs hero points. You do need to have trained all the existing training lines before you’re allowed to put hero points into your elite spec.

If you’ve got all the hero points in the existing game you’ll have enough to train about half the elite specialization training line on launch day. The rest you’ll need to earn in the jungle or via the new system Tyler outlined yesterday from WvW. The number of points to fully train your elite spec is higher than other training lines – but hero challenges in the jungle are worth 10 points each, so it’s not actually as big as it appears.

Couple of things to note:

• You need to have all of the core traits and skills unlocked first
• The line is located in your hero panel, like standard specs
• Maguuma Hero Challenges give 10 points each, not just 1

So this does make that 250 HP datamining seem highly likely
Well strike that, I missed his follow up post:

ColinJohanson.2394:

PlatinumMember.5274:

Unless I am mistaken just to unlock half of the training line, we need 212 hero points?

It’s 400 points total to unlock everything in an elite spec training line – I just can’t remember off hand how many points folks have currently if they have done all the existing ones, but it’s right around 200. The rest you’ll need to earn in jungle to unlock the deeper skills/traits/etc. in the training line.

You only need 60 hero points to begin using your elite spec, the points you spend after that continue to unlock more skills, traits, skins, etc.

Again, hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. So no you don’t need to go do 200-400 jungle challenges.

400 hero points for the complete line.

Please for the love of all six gods, shoot me now.

Kayberz.5346:

Ohoni is just a perfect example of the damage caused by the “everyone gets a trophy” generation, people wanting the reward but not wanting to actually achieve what is needed to get it

He thinks that not getting a reward he wants, despite his complete lack of effort to obtain it, as unacceptsble, pure self entitlement.

If you want a gold medal in the Olympics, for a specific sport you get good at the sport and you go earn the medal. You dont get a gold medal in pole vaulting for playing a gameboy in your living room.
This whole idea of “getting any reward for only doing the things I like” is completely rediculous and entirely self serving

While I am not one for the whole ‘everyone wins’ view on life, I have to point out that this is a game. Not a competition. Not a sport. And sure as hell not the Olympics. Yes, in those places being good as something specific in order to win is important.

Being able to work towards a specific goal (like legendary armor) via a multitude of avenues isn’t a self serving request. Nor is having options a bad thing. You just have to make sure 1 path is not easier than any other path.

By the logic you set forth, WvWers having the ability to earn Hero Points via WvW ranks should not be allowed. They should have to come into PvE and hunt down the challenges just like pve players. I think many (if not all) of them would argue that with you.

Grymlocke.1067:

Hi

Can some one confirm how we get the sword/armour Skin if this is

1: Simply using all traits and points in (Skills/Specialisations)
2: a Mastery to get this ?

TIA

I forget what stream they covered it in, but it’s a line you’ll be sinking Hero Points into. You’ll use HP to unlock traits and skills first (function over frilly) and then if you sink more HP into it to unlock the skins. There has been speculation about how many points total per complete elite, but last I’d heard, some datamining puts us at 250 HPs. Which, I seriously hope it’s not 250 points, because that’s just insane.

Datamining Links:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3iz5oo/data_mining_hero_points_and_specialization_tracks/
https://i.imgur.com/jKnfTdI.jpg

I don’t think the answer lies in nerfing content into oblivion, as the OP suggests. Instead rewards in standard wvw should be brought up to snuff, or (ideally) made more appealing. Then people will continue to play the normal wvw maps, but also won’t feel like they are being penalized because they have queues or are leveling a new character.

Beyond that, EotM isn’t ‘Ktrain all the time’ anymore. I’m seeing just as many zerg on zerg battles (including defense) as just straight object to objective training. lol I have a 90 minute vid of blue kicking both green and red all over the map. great fun, and lots of xp for my baby guard

Why worry? Instability is expected on patch / release days. Give them 24-48 hours to work out the critical bugs, and then things should be peachy. If you want to play through/around those issues, more power to ya, but that’s on you.

Maybe, Deceiver, but I think it would need to be an ‘opt in’ option. And those that use it should not have the option to earn map completion rewards or gifts of exploration on those characters.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I thought the beta chars were already gone. Mine are.

Mine were gone over the weekend. shrug

No thank you. Exploration is part of my leveling regimen, along with eotm, and crafting. Not to mention that all of those world completion components that I do on 80s (after Friday) will help fill those core mastery meters that I’ll be working on (and that’s decent chunks of xp for very little work). So yeah….no.

We don’t know exactly what from the Core game will give mastery points. We do know from the Pact Commander mastery line stream that they are looking at retroactively rewarding masteries for core completion. We also know that they were looking at giving 1 mastery point for each LS2 episode completed (not sure if that means just having it done, or having done all of the achievements for it).

Edit: Thank you Stitch for linking that. Beat me to finding it.

Naevius.3185:

Implied: Maguuma has its own type of HP, so we all start at 0. Old HP can’t be used to unlock elite epecs.

I don’t get that implied meaning from the blog. Only that Maguuma will have more HPs in which to go hunt down (or earn via wvw if you so choose). Since people are leaning towards the 250 HPs mark to fully unlock the elite line (traits, skills, skins, etc), I highly doubt Maguuma has 250 HP all it’s own. You’d be practically swimming in them if so.

Course, I could be wrong. I guess we’ll see.

TJgalon.5012:

Kidel.2057:

Is it retroactive?
Or us veterand are going to be cut out of this because we have a higher rank harder to increase?

I may be wrong, but don’t you earn a rank every 5,000 points, for every rank?

“The first 4 ranks (up to rank 5) only require 1,000 WXP; after that, each rank requires 5,000 WXP.”

Junkpile.7439:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Since the blog simply says u get these scrolls from gaining wvw rank, I wonder if this can be farmed in eotm. Would be another reason to join the k-train.

Of course you can farm it in EotM. There isn’t any players in borderlands so how can you farm anything there?

Depends on which server you’re on, regarding whether or not the borderlands are populated. T1 and T2 servers have much less of an issue than say..a T8 or T9 server.

But, if these items are account bound this might incentivize the eotm k-train more for pve players. Depends on the time/effort balance against the typical pve approach of having to do each HC on each character, as opposed to just farming a crap ton of scrolls on one or two mains. Especially if 250 HPs turns out to be the accurate count for the elite tracks.

Donari.5237:

Which might in fact mean that the datamined 250 points for full elite unlock is accurate, alas.

Ugh .. all I have to say.. just Ugh

ArchonWing.9480:

Well, are these things account bound instead of soul bound?

The difference is huge because if you were to earn Hero points in the Open World, you’d need to do it for each of your characters, while in WvW you could potentially use one character to farm them all.

I’m guessing the base "Proofs of Heroics " items will be account bound, as you can earn them on any character you’re on when you hit that next wvw rank. To make these specific items soul bound would probably kitten a lot of wvwers off, as it would be seen as massively alt-unfriendly.

The notarized scrolls on the other hand, I’m thinking should be bound on acquire. So you have to make sure to buy them on the character you need them on. However, this line “Any scrolls purchased above the cap can be consumed to refund the purchase price” sort negates that necessity, since you could just consume it, swap, and then buy it where you need it. Makes me wonder if they just went for account bound across the board. (Which, yes, would be taken as mildly unfair to pve players)

Random.4691:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Since the blog simply says u get these scrolls from gaining wvw rank, I wonder if this can be farmed in eotm. Would be another reason to join the k-train.

I never thought of this, will WvW be a barren waste land for the first couple days while everyone farms EotM ?

I wouldn’t think so necessarily. I mean, people can K-train the border lands too if they so desire, or just play normally. Those maps typically reward a bit more in the line of badges and wxp. Or, I thought they did, and if they don’t, some minor tweaking of those numbers could easily make them more desirable than simply running eotm. Of course, if the eotm k-train isn’t running smoothly, that’s a reason to avoid that map and seek the rewards elsewhere.