Guild Wars 2

DeceiverX.8361:

Lordrosicky.5813:

DeceiverX.8361:

You can follow them with Flesh wurm and spectral walk which are both on the same or lower cooldowns, or just a ranged weapon. If he really wants to disengage, he could just shortbow 5 or stealth away, anyways, which the class also depends on.

The thief is cornered into Shadowstep because most of its utilities outright suck, and it’s the only 2+ DoT condition cleanse on the entire class, anywhere.

It is an extremely strong utility, but there are so few good ones and the class in such an odd balance state it’s either mandatory or just excellent because it’s better with the rest and there are better alternatives in the rest of the kit.

I would swap any utility on any class for shadowstep in a second. It gives you everything in one skill. It is vastly OP compared to every other utility in the game.

And I’d trade Shadowstep for Suffer!, Plague Signet, and Spectral Armor or Rise!. Heck, there’s even a thread circulating on the necro forums made by necro players about how generally speaking, necro has the widest array of viable utilities of every profession right now.

And necro does have tools to kill power thief. They just don’t exist on the condi meta build because it can’t counter-burst and the thief will just run when it starts getting low (since it’s holding a necro on-point suggesting either it’s holding a scrapper there as well (and allowing a 4v3 on another point for his team, or holding a the likely-critical necro from a 4v4 teamfight elsewhere). Play power and if you play well with the right loadout you should be able to deal with them fairly well. I find thieves are typically on the easier side of matchups in 1v1 scenarios when playing power reaper.

And I’m not denying that Shadowstep is incredibly strong. The problem is that outside of Daredevil, which really only includes BD for great utilities, most of the thief utility skills are awful outside of very specialized builds (AKA not viable in PvP), and a lot of the thief’s kit is too heavily-dependent on it to function without it. Again, it’s the only burst cleanse anywhere on the profession, and PR’s both not in the meta unless playing staff acro vault spam (often seen as not a great build with the potential to have disastrous matchups) and it also fails to cleanse potentially-devastating conditions like weakness and confusion.

If you want to suggest buffing other utilities on the thief and/or the profession itself at the expense of Shadowstep in ways to keep the class useful, be my guest, but pretending like the class would be fine if this were nerfed heavily is just asinine.

@Helseth, trying a little too hard to troll. Might have had some bites on a 0.5s cast but 2-3s made it pretty obvious lol.

Necro has viable utilities because none of them are too good. Shadowstep is so good that other strong utilities dont see play. It would help build diversity to nerf it

Rizigmar.2681:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Rizigmar.2681:

If you really want to cut down and balance thief appropriately, we can keep Shadowstep where it is but what really needs to happen are these changes.

Agility Signet – Raise the CD from 30s to 45 seconds (Utility)

Endurance Thief – Only grants 25 Endurance instead of 50.(Daredevil)

Hard to Catch – Reduce endurance restored from 100% to 50% (Acrobatics)

Channeled Vigor – Reduce the pulses from 3 to 2. Increase the Healing for full endurance to 9320, and not full endurance to 7520.

Dash – Buff the damage reduction to 25% for both direct damage and condition damage, increase the duration from 4 to 5 seconds. Add a ICD of 3s to impairment removal trait.

Pulmonary Impact – Add a 3s ICD to this trait.

Driven Fortitude – Buff base healing from 456 to 856.

lol none of these are sufficient or do anything. PI 3s icd is pointless. Might as well not bother. It should be 10 seconds or reduced damage. Most similar traits have a 10s icd

The point of the PI ICD would be so you can’t just spam HS or instant hard CC for multiple stacks, if it needs to go up the max i’d say would be 5s ICD, 10s makes it pretty useless and I’d rather Opt for a replacement trait at that point. Everyone would just use Condi removal on evade if that were the case, unless you’re a staff theif, then Staff Master.. The changes to endurance generation too means they can’t just spam evades anymore, unless they’re D/D, which will probably also be affected by these changes even more.

Nerf all those too then

Rizigmar.2681:

If you really want to cut down and balance thief appropriately, we can keep Shadowstep where it is but what really needs to happen are these changes.

Agility Signet – Raise the CD from 30s to 45 seconds (Utility)

Endurance Thief – Only grants 25 Endurance instead of 50.(Daredevil)

Hard to Catch – Reduce endurance restored from 100% to 50% (Acrobatics)

Channeled Vigor – Reduce the pulses from 3 to 2. Increase the Healing for full endurance to 9320, and not full endurance to 7520.

Dash – Buff the damage reduction to 25% for both direct damage and condition damage, increase the duration from 4 to 5 seconds. Add a ICD of 3s to impairment removal trait.

Pulmonary Impact – Add a 3s ICD to this trait.

Driven Fortitude – Buff base healing from 456 to 856.

lol none of these are sufficient or do anything. PI 3s icd is pointless. Might as well not bother. It should be 10 seconds or reduced damage. Most similar traits have a 10s icd

Lukas.7159:

okay henry your posts are getting more and more ridiculous and, tbh, annoying

play thief yourself and you see how “op” it is

also your “team” that youre working with is probably your goldfish, your family and the map chat from hotm

Feel free to feed your answers into the poll and I will have my team run the numbers again to check our conclusions were correct.

nothelseth.4621:

I think that henrys posts perfectly prove how people react when they hear anything about their class being too strong.

Every time, no matter how ridiculous or actually genuinely true, his statement is people will instantly rush in to defend the class as if somehow this post would lead to the class being nerfed.

I think this thread would have been much better if you brought up the much needed discussion of steal having a 2.5-3s cast time. Right now it’s absolutely absurd to have a skill that will lead to guaranteed kills and won 1v1s having no animation or window for reaction. Even worse is when it’s cast in stealth. In fact, even if you do add a fair cast time like 3s they’ll still be able to cast it in stealth which is a problem.

What do you think about this?

Decent ideas nothelseth.

Something needs to be done. The time for action is now anet. Lets work together with anet and find 3 ways to nerf thief to save gw2

Hi guys, Henry back again. How we all doing?

As some will know, me and my team has been working away on an ambitious poll regarding the state of GW2 PvP and balance.

In each case, I will show the question I asked and the most common response is shown in bold.

1, What is the most OP profession? Thief

2, What is the most Op trait that should be nerfed? Pulmonary Impact

3, What is the most OP skill that should be nerfed? Shadowstep

4, How would you rate lordrosicky as a community member, forum poster and all round good guy (1-10)? 10

5, Many thanks, What is your favourite map? Skyhammer

6, Mine too, Should they add maps like revenge on capricorn to ranked? Yes

7, Do you think the pvp devs do a good job? Yes, generally

8, Do you think there should be more volatile rating changes after decay within a season? No, this sucks

9, Does necromancer need buffs? Yes

10, Are queue times too short for players with 2100 ratings meaning they match with players much lower after only 5 minute? Yes

11, Do you like the new PvP rewards? Yes

12, Do we need better in game communication/pings on the map with meaning? yes

13, What two classes takes the least skill? Thief and dragon hunter

14, What is the easiest class to get to legend with? Thief

15, Should invuln/evade spam be toned down? Yes

16, What amulet should be added back to the game? Sentinal

17, Is Elvis still alive? Maybe

18, What is 5 + 7? 14

19, Is berzerker stance really annoying and OP? Yes

20, Is season 5 the best season yet? Yes

So these were the results. Feel free to add your responses and I can have my team take a look at them.

Thoughts?

Something needs to be done to balance this. Currently this skill removes all counter play from thief

ich.7086:

@OP 10/10 would read again

Zenith.7301:

Shadowstep like most thief utilities are overloaded with benefits.

You mean stacked like this or this ? The only thing overloaded with effects on thief is steal because you spend half your trait on that. SS has several benefits and most of the time you can’t used them all.
If you use it for :

• curing condis you loose at least one stunbreak + the mobility
• move fast you loose one stunbreak + the condi cure (since you won’t port back)
• repositioning (like getting out of LoS for healing or getting in LoS for headshotting or just mindgames) you are likely to not return in 10s

Zenith.7301:

All their heals do some secondary feature without cost — one heal stealths and gives regen, the other refills endurance, and another heals, breaks roots/snares and evades.

I searched hard for an healing skill that only does Heal X with no others effects or conditions. And I have found one, in the whole game, and guess what : you can’t even use it in spvp.

Every other healing skill in the game have more depth from either healing more if X, removing conditions, gives boons , block or even works with professions mechanics.

The only serious skill that come close to your vanilla heal is this one but even on this one there is depth since it’s overtime.

Zenith.7301:

Other classes would kill for a utility that could break stun and condi clear in one. Let alone a teleport.

Are this or this meta ?

Zenith.7301:

Elementalist had Lightning Flash gutted to not even be a stunbreaker and is basically a teleport with a crappy damage component that only teleports you once, doesn’t break stun, and doesn’t clear condi baseline.

It was cause d/d triple cantrip got 3 stun-break + awesome effect with all the synergy, many things were nerfed those days that may or may not still be relevant today.

The damage isn’t crappy at all on damage build (i took some 3k+ crit and can be combo’ed) and it’s a still pretty nice skill traited, it’s a huge mobility skill for a rather slow ele.

I don’t see why you want LF to port twice, thieves are meant to do frequent in/out (see the number of rollback or port in/port out), eles aren’t meant to do that it’s either stay ranged (staff) or go in (daggers).

Zenith.7301:

Can’t believe thieves even have the nerve to say their utilities are bad. Shadow step, shadow refuge, smoke powder, Block, disrupting daggers, and shadow trap.

Shadow Refuge is meh at burst because counterplay is ez and pinning a thief for this long is a death setence.
The last time i saw Smoke Powder it was for doing skip in pve for what purpose do you want to take this skill ?
Have you even tried to use disrupting daggers ? Obviously not it’s a worse mechanism than mantras and the icd is just killing it, once fixed it could be used on non x/D set using PI.
Shadow Trap is working once in a blue moon.

The only utilities worth considering for a power spvp thief are :

• Shadowstep
• Signet of Agility
• Blinding powder
• Bandit’s Defense
• Infiltrator’s Signet
• Roll for Initiative
• Impairing Daggers
• Fist Flurry

Zenith.7301:

Not including their signets are some of the best ones in the game.

That’s more because synergy and not because of their effect. Druids will rather keep their ep-signet instead of signet of agility because it doesn’t fit their role as I don’t see any serious thief build taking signet of stone.

Did you even looked at that even ele version is better ?

It is strong because it does too much. This isnt up for debate.

Also stun breaking is strong in itself. To stun break and teleport 1200 gets you out of any follow up, it is totally broken

Zenith.7301:

Shadowstep like most thief utilities are overloaded with benefits.

Shadowstep is a double stunbreak, a teleport, and a condi removal all in one. Another utility is a block that also offers a stunbreak and is a knockdown. All their heals do some secondary feature without cost — one heal stealths and gives regen, the other refills endurance, and another heals, breaks roots/snares and evades.

Other classes would kill for a utility that could break stun and condi clear in one. Let alone a teleport.

Elementalist had Lightning Flash gutted to not even be a stunbreaker and is basically a teleport with a crappy damage component that only teleports you once, doesn’t break stun, and doesn’t clear condi baseline.

Can’t believe thieves even have the nerve to say their utilities are bad. Shadow step, shadow refuge, smoke powder, Block, disrupting daggers, and shadow trap. Not including their signets are some of the best ones in the game.

Amazing post. Completely spot on. Look at lightning flash (which is still played) and it shows how OP shadowstep is. Shadowstep simply shouldnt be a stun break much like lightning flash was (correctly) made to not be a stun break. It is so OP.

Now we have reached a consensus that it is OP, lets suggest ideas to nerf it. The best one is it shouldnt break stun. imo

DeceiverX.8361:

You can follow them with Flesh wurm and spectral walk which are both on the same or lower cooldowns, or just a ranged weapon. If he really wants to disengage, he could just shortbow 5 or stealth away, anyways, which the class also depends on.

The thief is cornered into Shadowstep because most of its utilities outright suck, and it’s the only 2+ DoT condition cleanse on the entire class, anywhere.

It is an extremely strong utility, but there are so few good ones and the class in such an odd balance state it’s either mandatory or just excellent because it’s better with the rest and there are better alternatives in the rest of the kit.

I would swap any utility on any class for shadowstep in a second. It gives you everything in one skill. It is vastly OP compared to every other utility in the game.

Phineas Poe.3018:

steelheart.7386:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Phineas Poe.3018:

suffish.4150:

Spoichiche.1290:

“Tell me what’s the point of playing?

1. It clearly isn’t fun".

The post should just end here. There’s no point in playing if you don’t enjoy it.
I don’t believe anyone with half a brain would play a game that they don’t find fun, or enjoy in some way.

If you truly think this then you are not a competitive or really an ambitious player. I have played over 650 games this season already and, trying to be as accurate as possible, I would say 70% of those I really, REALLY did not want to play. I have spent over half this season absolutely hating pvp and feeling like quitting the game after many of my losses. But I don’t just stop playing because I don’t enjoy it. I don’t play this game for fun. If I did I would not even have half of the 5.2k hours I have invested in this game. No matter if it is pve or pvp, I play to achieve a target and I will not stop playing, however much I hate what I am doing, until I have done what I want to. To be honest, I WISH I could think in the way you do, it would make me a lot happier, but me and many other simply can’t.

And it is not just me who thinks like this, I know that many people would keep playing when they hate this game like I sometimes do just so they can achieve what they want. When you see a thread like this with someone saying how much they hate the game yet they continue to play, it means that they are a person who thinks like me and will keep going even if they don’t like what they are doing. Pvp, especially this season, does encourage people to think in this way more than ever.

That, or they have literally nothing else to do with their life. Or both.

This sounds like incredibly destructive behavior and was honestly very depressing to read.

Video games are a hobby. Unless you’re a YouTube content creator or a Twitch streamer, you’re probably not even making any money playing this game. It’s a good and healthy thing to always strive for improvement when it comes to your hobbies, whether that’s gaming or otherwise. My wife is a ferocious knitter and always challenges herself by taking on more ambitious projects; I too play video games with much the same energy, and am always striving to improve as a player.

But at the core of that ambition is the pursuit of play, not work.

I hope your life turns around at some point and you eventually see the error in this approach.

His view isn’t destructive in the slightest. You are just saying words with no understanding of what you are saying, talking by cliche.

His enjoyment (FUN) is to get better and achieve something in the game. So the end goal is the fun.

That is something a lot of people do, people who are DRIVEN to succeed in various aspects of life. It is not destructive at all, it is a personality trait he has and it is a desirable one in some ways.

Do you think climbing Mount Everest is “fun” whilst you are doing it? Or do people do it for the end goal, hoping in the end they will achieve something which gives them satisfaction.

It is similar in a ton of games and all areas of life. For some people the end goal is so desirable that they will go through an non-fun portion to get to it.

I am actually kind of like you in my outlook on life. But you have to realise that not everyone is the same.

Not sure what you’re rambling about. He literally said in his post “I don’t play this game to have fun.”

You are making a judgement call on someone motivations for playing based on your own and thats pretty presumptious of you. People play for different reasons whether you find them valid or not. Thats what he is saying I think.

Just because people play for different reasons that doesn’t mean they’re all defensible. Someone could boot up Guild Wars 2 simply to troll other players and make everyone else have a bad time around them.

Besides, I am not “presuming” anything. His actions and opinions are quite defined and obvious. He literally says he doesn’t play the game to have fun. I personally find that to be incredibly destructive behavior.

A judgment call is absolutely being made here, but the evaluation isn’t based on conjecture. I am stating an opinion and you are welcome to disagree with it.

This is a dumb conversation, so you’re welcome to continue it without me.

For some people the fun is the end goal and not the process. That is the whole point. This is why games like WoW were so successful. It is also why people get competitive in games.

It is a dumb conversation on your side. Now you have had logic thrown in your face feel free to back out

I tried some thief and shadowstep is lol.

It basically makes thief 0 skill. It is impossible to die because whenever you mess up you just shadowstep out.

It is a stun break (basically double stun break)
A 1200 range instant cast teleport
It removes a ton of condis
It is only on a 40s cd of something after the return (lol)

Solutions (one of the following):
1, Make it not a stun break
2, Make it not remove any condis.
3, Reduce the range to 600
4, Increase the cd to 90 seconds
5, Make the cd only start when the return is used and increase the cd to 70 seconds

So skill-less. Impossible to die on thief because of this skill.

Phineas Poe.3018:

suffish.4150:

Spoichiche.1290:

“Tell me what’s the point of playing?

1. It clearly isn’t fun".

The post should just end here. There’s no point in playing if you don’t enjoy it.
I don’t believe anyone with half a brain would play a game that they don’t find fun, or enjoy in some way.

If you truly think this then you are not a competitive or really an ambitious player. I have played over 650 games this season already and, trying to be as accurate as possible, I would say 70% of those I really, REALLY did not want to play. I have spent over half this season absolutely hating pvp and feeling like quitting the game after many of my losses. But I don’t just stop playing because I don’t enjoy it. I don’t play this game for fun. If I did I would not even have half of the 5.2k hours I have invested in this game. No matter if it is pve or pvp, I play to achieve a target and I will not stop playing, however much I hate what I am doing, until I have done what I want to. To be honest, I WISH I could think in the way you do, it would make me a lot happier, but me and many other simply can’t.

And it is not just me who thinks like this, I know that many people would keep playing when they hate this game like I sometimes do just so they can achieve what they want. When you see a thread like this with someone saying how much they hate the game yet they continue to play, it means that they are a person who thinks like me and will keep going even if they don’t like what they are doing. Pvp, especially this season, does encourage people to think in this way more than ever.

That, or they have literally nothing else to do with their life. Or both.

This sounds like incredibly destructive behavior and was honestly very depressing to read.

Video games are a hobby. Unless you’re a YouTube content creator or a Twitch streamer, you’re probably not even making any money playing this game. It’s a good and healthy thing to always strive for improvement when it comes to your hobbies, whether that’s gaming or otherwise. My wife is a ferocious knitter and always challenges herself by taking on more ambitious projects; I too play video games with much the same energy, and am always striving to improve as a player.

But at the core of that ambition is the pursuit of play, not work.

I hope your life turns around at some point and you eventually see the error in this approach.

His view isn’t destructive in the slightest. You are just saying words with no understanding of what you are saying, talking by cliche.

His enjoyment (FUN) is to get better and achieve something in the game. So the end goal is the fun.

That is something a lot of people do, people who are DRIVEN to succeed in various aspects of life. It is not destructive at all, it is a personality trait he has and it is a desirable one in some ways.

Do you think climbing Mount Everest is “fun” whilst you are doing it? Or do people do it for the end goal, hoping in the end they will achieve something which gives them satisfaction.

It is similar in a ton of games and all areas of life. For some people the end goal is so desirable that they will go through an non-fun portion to get to it.

I am actually kind of like you in my outlook on life. But you have to realise that not everyone is the same.

suffish.4150:

Spoichiche.1290:

“Tell me what’s the point of playing?

1. It clearly isn’t fun".

The post should just end here. There’s no point in playing if you don’t enjoy it.
I don’t believe anyone with half a brain would play a game that they don’t find fun, or enjoy in some way.

If you truly think this then you are not a competitive or really an ambitious player. I have played over 650 games this season already and, trying to be as accurate as possible, I would say 70% of those I really, REALLY did not want to play. I have spent over half this season absolutely hating pvp and feeling like quitting the game after many of my losses. But I don’t just stop playing because I don’t enjoy it. I don’t play this game for fun. If I did I would not even have half of the 5.2k hours I have invested in this game. No matter if it is pve or pvp, I play to achieve a target and I will not stop playing, however much I hate what I am doing, until I have done what I want to. To be honest, I WISH I could think in the way you do, it would make me a lot happier, but me and many other simply can’t.

And it is not just me who thinks like this, I know that many people would keep playing when they hate this game like I sometimes do just so they can achieve what they want. When you see a thread like this with someone saying how much they hate the game yet they continue to play, it means that they are a person who thinks like me and will keep going even if they don’t like what they are doing. Pvp, especially this season, does encourage people to think in this way more than ever.

That, or they have literally nothing else to do with their life. Or both.

Good post although in the end I just quit anyway

Variance. Or tilt.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Lordrosicky.5813:

8, No new maps. So the game has been out 4 years and skyhammer is the only new map in ranked in 4 years. Awesome. I hope on the reviews of their 4 years of work the anet management see how much of a factual failure this is

Temple of the Silent Storm wasn’t in at launch, either.

Pedantic. It released over 4 years ago anyway.

Hot Boy.7138:

I’m actually enjoying this season, but everything you said is true. Can’t really refute any of that cause it’s spot on lol. But nonetheless, I’m having fun and the rewards are great.

But most of everything you said is correct and really does need to be addressed. Nothing could be done about the small community though. And I don’t think communication is really that terrible. I see people pinging all the time and giving commands.

It should flash up in dialog that “Person x needs help” when the ping happens

1, It clearly isn’t fun. Its all spam. Every class is spam. If you disagree you are lying to urself.

2, There is nothing to play for. The season goes on for years and playing isn’t encouraged from a leaderboard perspective.

3, A ton of games are ruined by ESL mesmer/thief duo queues pushing far and insta moa someone and then snowball the whole game 5v4 from there.

4, There is zero build diversity. It is clear what is best.

5, If you try to run non-meta you often get utterly shrekt because the power creep is so insane that all the meta builds are broken. GL with running a non-meta spec and surviving thieves and mesmers

6, There are no amulets. So it was broken with tanky amulets because engis and mesmers and rangers never died right? Well how about nerf the broken sustain traits. It kills build diversity so much to remove all the amulets. I really don’t understand the lack of a sentinal or cleric amulet and instead we get 100 variations of the same amulets. Breaking the game because of these dumb traits is not a reason to remove amulets. It is a reason to nerf these traits or just to accept this game is a failure pvp wise.

7, There is no communication help. No pings to say you need help. Nothing. Just a complete failure.

8, No new maps. So the game has been out 4 years and skyhammer is the only new map in ranked in 4 years. Awesome. I hope on the reviews of their 4 years of work the anet management see how much of a factual failure this is

9, Perma evasion – its not very fun trying to hit people perma evading/invuln. Maybe try and design combat in a way that is fun for both parties.

10, Tiny community – you play the same people over and over. It is boring. You sit in a queue for 4 minutes and then it pops vs exactly the same people you just played with. So that 4 minutes was just a total troll.

What so thief/mesmer is even more OP? Mobility is already king. This would make it more so. More of an argument to make it 6v6 honestly as it would promote fighting over mobility wars 2.

It was a big mistake making those big tournaments have all the funding instead of doing small weekly tournaments that give teams a reason to exist and players something to watch and play in to inspire them.

They need small weekly tournaments with prizes and then let the big tournaments happen organically when the interest is there.

1, Condi thief – press 1 button
2, Staff thief – press 1 button
3, Any druid – pets, so many escapes and sustain. Esp with longbow as you just press buttons
4, Any scrapper – so much sustain. Tank everything and never die
5, Any DH – see above

People will get bored of meaningless grinding in solo queue.

There needs to be some sort of (maybe impossible to reach but it doesnt matter) dream of “esports”.

It doesn’t even need to be big tournaments. Just do 12 weeks of tournaments each weekend for 8 teams. Each team must have at least 2 people in legend rating unless there are spare slots.

12 weeks = $500 prize each week from your “marketing” budget.

Thats $6k and it would do more good long term than your $200k tournaments.

It would give the scene a chance to grow organically with bigger tournaments to come if this is a success.

Cynz.9437:

Saiyan.1704:

Sooloo.1364:

The arguments you guys are making are ludicrous. If he belongs in silver as you state then he shouldn’t be losing games, he should be matched with players who lose just as much as he does. But you say he should be carrying, so he’s meant to be doing the bulk of the heavy lifting and the game expects him to. And the other 4 people on his team are just dead weight, they count for nothing. Thing is, unless you experience what he is experiencing you have no valid argument here. And please stop comparing pro gamers with common players, that’s just stupid.

I’ve made it, and stayed in, Legendary with the exception of S5 being Low Plat because gw2 (disregarding the broken placement system) finally got the leaderboards right. So that’s S2 through S4 Legendary status all soloq, and Plat in S5.

A few of us here HAVE experienced what the OP has gone through. Even Helseth… except us certain players got out of it because it’s not meant to be a permanent thing.

And yes, certain classes do carry easier than others. I’ve realized backcapping classes like Thief & Mesmer can solo-carry & snowball the map a lot easier than, say, a DH or Necro. But every other class who’s worth their salt have nade it to Diamond/Plat/Legendary without deranking themselved.

Wrong. I placed in low plat, got to 1900, then whole week i had never ending loss streak (i would log in, lose few matches, log off every day), so bad that i landed in gold 2. I am back in plat again, but that week of permanent losing happend and it shouldn’t have. Surely, you could say i belong in gold but i did get back to plat and maintain my poistion. I also got in plat on my alt account that doesn’t even have HoT (so played core thief) so here is that. The whole system is wonky and buggy (i don’t even want to start on games with stacked top 5 on one team and gold players + 1,2 plats on other team because for MM 1700/1500 equals 2200 somehow).

The system has bugs and is too volatile imo

First team fight you get a down and are the slowest person in the world to focus the body. You should have called target and been on it spamming ur stuff. Instead you just auto attack some guy on node and they get a free res lol. So bad. Then you get spiked and do nothing. You just stand there and die. I didnt know if you even running a second weapon set lol.

Then you go mid to 1v1 a druid on a capped node. Yeh, gl with that. “But i’ve got 2 mid!”. Yeh you do but that is because you let your team die around the top buff by just randomly going into an unwinnable 1v1 mid on their node.

Then you run around near your spawn for ages and actually do nothing for ages. To win ANY video game in pvp you need to actually do stuff to win.

You then go far which is fine. Your team mate is getting spiked by a thief and you just sit there in the middle of the cap spamming staff auto (again you never swap wtf). Lukcily your build and pet is so strong you can be somewhat productive.

Then you get another down and you go for a really bad stomp with no chance of getting it whilst not doing damage. And after that you do exactly the same again by going for a stupid stomp and getting urself killed.

You also seem to lack the knowledge to leave the point. You play a totally broken build full of sustain. When you are low it doesnt take long to get to full health again because gw2 is a powercreeped joke of a game. Instead of taking all this free health you just run back in and die.

By this point the game is over and its gg.

Having said all this. You are way better than me (I am terrible). So feel free to ignore my advice.

coro.3176:

Things I find to be too good:

• Ancient Seeds – Very strong trait if the target doesn’t have a condi clear ready. Then, if they do clear the immob, they get snared again unless they manage to move away quickly. Considering this is on a 10s cooldown, that’s a little low for such a potentially fight-ending trait. I would increase the cooldown or lower the snare duration.
• Adrenal Health – heals more from one trait than from most classes’ active heals + sustain skills combined. When you take into account this goes on a class with heavy armour, long invulns, and resistance, you’ve got an OP healing machine.
• Eternal Champion – long-lasting, high-uptime stability is dumb.
• All the traits that cancel cc. These are usually on a <1m cooldown and passively swing fights wihout the user really doing anything. The attacker sees a window and goes for their big cc move, only to have it blanked by a passive trait. These might be more balanced if there was an indicator on the status bar so the attacker could use a lesser cc first.

You are right. Ancient seeds is really broken. I will add it

Yeh this is the stupidest thing of the current system. it makes no sense in a season format to make games after decay mean much more.

Supreme.3164:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Blue.1207:

Entering the season late, I was placed low gold initial match ups were a challenge, no biggie. I made my way up solo q to mid/high platinum. After this week I’m now low silver.

I know how to rotate, I win my 1v1’s and hold out during 1vX/disengage when appropriate. My teammates on the other hand are seemingly straight outta Best Buy with their CD keys. Yeah I make mistakes too and I’m well aware of them, but man, oh man.

I’m no pro leaguer who can carry his team on his shoulders and I’d be kitten ed if I said this was frustrating, because its not. I just can’t care anymore, though I care just enough to post here venting my frustrations. I can’t care about this matchmaking system that for some ungodly reason pairs me with people who do something reminiscent of drinking bleach in the corner of the room.

This season has mentally drained me, and it’s just not fun anymore.

I placed at 1000 and made my way to legend (1955).

On my way up i got blamed by know it all silver players all the time. So i was a legend calibre player in silver and i got blamed for a few losses.

It is almost certain you have no idea how to rotate at all. In addition, you probably make bad moves alot, dont play to the comp you are in or against. If you knew any of this you would at a minimum stay in platinum.

I have experienced all these gold and silver players who think they know what they are doing.

I had the highest mmr in the eu on the last solo queue a few years ago as i won those leaderboards. If you want to improve and know how to really rotate in solo queue then record your gameplay and i will review it for you.

Did it ever occurred to you that the enemy team may decide to outrotate him to a point where they leave him the point and don’t try to fight him?

What do you do if the enemy team lose every teamfight you’re present in..and simply decide to outrotate you on the other two points seen as your team will lose everywhere else where you’re not present?

I’m curious to see how you can keep up with your team that it’s losing everywhere, even 1vs1 that they shouldn’t lose.

There is no need for any gameplay record..a simple answer will do, let me see if I get this answer…or the ranting will simply keep going

It isn’t about that though. Firstly you should never be sat on a point. Secondly if your team can’t win team fights then you must be in them to carry them. Thirdly you need to understand your comp and their comp. I saw a ton of try hards at gold who were winning 1v1s but failing hard in general. If your team comp wants a 3 cap vs theirs then do it. otherwise you should be team fighting.

Say your team is: ele/necro/ele/necro/warrior (and you are the warrior who loves to push far and 1v1)
And their team is: Thief/mesmer/thief/warrior/DH

Then in this example you could push far (or the third cap) 100% of the time and win every 1v1 and still punt the game for your team as you just give their thieves opportunities to be relevent and abuse their mobility and +1 ing.

Other huge mistakes I saw at gold was people rotate too fast and not securing kills. So we will have a down at mid in a 4v4 and the thief will leave before the down is secured or whilst his team mates are still pressured. Another one is that people refuse to fight off point at gold. To the point where they rage “dont fight off point!”. In reality you often have to fight off point. If a necro gets jumped off point then you have to team fight them off point. It doesnt matter if they decap because you can kill them and then cap the point back instantly.

People at gold massively overvalue caps and undervalue kills and so get constantly snowballed. The only time this isn’t true is if its full bunker vs bunker set up

Lastly, you are not going to win every game, nor do you have to. You just have to win above replacement. You have to be better than your MMR says you are and then you will win more games than you lose until you rank up to your actual skill level.

None of this is rocket science, its so obviously logical and yet there is basically nobody in gold and below who has a clue. They say things like “dont fight off point” and “thief decap far” and that is why they lose so much and are so bad.

I suck at the actual game. I am really really bad. If you learn how to move around the map though, there is no reason why you cant get out of gold even if you are really bad at the game like me (idk what any classes do in HOT, I am terrible)

Blue.1207:

Entering the season late, I was placed low gold initial match ups were a challenge, no biggie. I made my way up solo q to mid/high platinum. After this week I’m now low silver.

I know how to rotate, I win my 1v1’s and hold out during 1vX/disengage when appropriate. My teammates on the other hand are seemingly straight outta Best Buy with their CD keys. Yeah I make mistakes too and I’m well aware of them, but man, oh man.

I’m no pro leaguer who can carry his team on his shoulders and I’d be kitten ed if I said this was frustrating, because its not. I just can’t care anymore, though I care just enough to post here venting my frustrations. I can’t care about this matchmaking system that for some ungodly reason pairs me with people who do something reminiscent of drinking bleach in the corner of the room.

This season has mentally drained me, and it’s just not fun anymore.

I placed at 1000 and made my way to legend (1955).

On my way up i got blamed by know it all silver players all the time. So i was a legend calibre player in silver and i got blamed for a few losses.

It is almost certain you have no idea how to rotate at all. In addition, you probably make bad moves alot, dont play to the comp you are in or against. If you knew any of this you would at a minimum stay in platinum.

I have experienced all these gold and silver players who think they know what they are doing.

I had the highest mmr in the eu on the last solo queue a few years ago as i won those leaderboards. If you want to improve and know how to really rotate in solo queue then record your gameplay and i will review it for you.

xeonage.1253:

Lucius.2140:

Pvp on December 2014: 10k players, was the max of all time in that moment.

Pvp on January of 2017: Only gw2 efficiency had 25k players with skill rating.
Games not dying, has its problems and you are bored, but that doesnt mean its dying. Self delusional could be used to:
thinking issues= dying and i think/feel that its dying = its dying.

In any case, hope your pvp crisis pass and you continue to play.

Pd: Not my main language.

Or see this NCsoft 2014.4Q to NCsoft 2016.3Q
I have to say, this is very pitiful…..

Wow the game is dying

Anchoku.8142:

LF on sceptre auto has been on my wish list since the game was released.

Every weapon set in the game for necro needs to have reliable and in built life force generation as its meant to be the profession mechanic. Much like every mesmer weapon should make clones. Like, its not complicated but anet failed utterly with how they designed the class weapons.

The MMR ratings are way too volatile for a season of this length. It doesn’t promote continued play.

Also their balance patches are just pointless. For example, necro greatsword. All these things should be receiving constant tweaks

Flumek.9043:

I am a Henry supporter.

I dream of a world where everyone is happy.

A world where cooldowns matter.

A world where spam is rightfully punished.

A world, where everyone can equip zerker amulet and still walk the mists with 50/50 matchups.

Thanks, much appreciated

No its just necro is more obvious as they are the focus of the enemy team. Sometimes when a necro dies it is because they suck. More often it is because:
1, Their teammates are missing all their skills to pressure the people chasing the necro
2, The ele spams all their heal on a necro in death shroud
3, The support classes chase their low target who has more sustain than the necro whilst the entire enemy team chases the necro. Who dies first? The enemy engi with 1000 sustain or your necro with 0?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Lordrosicky.5813:

1, Pulmonary impact – this trait came in at an OP rating of 2325.

2, Signet of illusions – this skill came in at an OP rating of 1623.4.

3, Bristleback pet – this pet is just broken, too much passive damage. OP rating of 1423.

4, Arc divider – the damage of this thing is crazy given its range and lack of CD. Came in at an OP rating of 1367.

5, Ancestral Grace – Came in at an OP rating of 1327.

6, Unhindered combatant – came in at an OP rating of 1315.

7, Channeled vigor – Came in at an OP rating of 1310.

8, Monk’s focus – came in at an OP rating of 1297.

9, Rapid regeneration – came in at an OP rating of 1294.

10, Restorative illusions – came in at an OP rating of 1292.

I wanted to correct your calculations. It seems you used the wrong coefficient when plugging into the formula. I’ll only go over a few, as I don’t have the time to nitpick all of your top 10.

Based on 600 = average

1) Pulmonary Impact – 845.24. This skill is strong, but can only be used on interrupts. You need to factor in opportunity costs into the formula, so that subtracts a good 500 rating points.

2) Bristleback – 950.00. This is truly OP, as it’s basically a mini Ranger on longbow. Your calculations were based on pre-February 2016 numbers, when the skills were 25% stronger.

4) Arc Divider – 627.79 above 50% HP, 935.333 below 50% HP. Similar to Heartseeker, this Primal Burst skill is strong mainly to low HP opponents. When used on opponents with a majority of their HP, it’s just a normal skill.

Interesting. I will have my team run the numbers again. I doubt our process has many big errors in though. My team have a lot of experience in calculating what is op.

Shaogin.2679:

OriOri.8724:

I’m still waiting for OP to explain, with details, how he came up with these numbers, what they are based against, and what he considers to be a healthy/balanced skill and/or trait.

You’ll never see it. It’s Lordrosicky, he’s just a forum troll that plays Necro and is constantly asking for everything else to be nerfed. Honestly not sure why people continue to argue with him.

I am actually the least biassed person on these forums

ArthurDent.9538:

I would swap rapid regeneration for adrenal health, otherwise looks like a solid scientific list.

That could be a decent idea. I will have my team look at it.

suffish.4150:

Lordrosicky.5813:

suffish.4150:

Lordrosicky.5813:

nothelseth.4621:

Lordrosicky.5813:

From a pure competitive perspective it should be solo queue only. It is a shame that a lot of the top players on eu will only duo queue usually with mesmer thief and then moa far and just snowball the whole game from there.

This hurts the game. People just quit queuing when unbalanced match ups come up.

However, alot of people like to play with friends. The solution is that the matchmaker need to have a hard lock on the difference between teams. 1800 players should never be placed against these try hard 2100 duo queues. What i am saying is that if these try hards want to duo queue and stomp at 2100 rating they should have queue times of around 15 minutes.

Both sides are accurately represented here. I for one fully support solo duo because I know the insane positive effect it has to the people who want to q but don’t want to do it solo. I find it very boring on my level of play though because if I want to stay in the top 5 I’m pretty much forced to duo. Playing soloq and landing vs 2x players from rank55 makes it impossible. Meanwhile, if I duo and those guys arent playing then it’s just my side freestomping everything.

I didnt know of this solution before but league of legends have perfectly solved it IMO. Once you hit a certain rating level you can no longer duoq in ranked. This means that if me and frae want to q at 23 then we are most definitely going to face eachother every single game which makes it x100 more interesting than if we are premading and nobody else is online.

Going to push hard for this change because I think it’d do wonders for the community.

Thats an AMAZING idea. Once you hit 1950 you cannot duo queue. That is literally perfect. It would solve all the issues and at the same time it would mean that casual players can still play with friends.

Wow i hope they do this.

I do not think this is a good idea at all. As someone who is legendary division, I would hate it to just not be able to play with my friends. Being forced to solo is a BAD idea, and no, I don’t duo just to stomp noobs. Having the ability to duo with someone allows you to have more fun, have conversations between games and discuss what has been happening in our games. Ranked would feel like a pretty lonely place if I wasn’t able to play with friends.

I accept that duo can give an unfair advantage, but it really is something that has to be endured to keep ranked as fun as it can be.

No because highish level ranked is basically dead now as its a bunch of try hard duo queues farming low plat players as everyone is dodge queuing each other/not queuing unless they are duo.

But my experience of ranked at legend/plat 3 is that most games are very close and competitive. Yes, there are blowouts (I won a 500-0 today) but they are few and far between. Nobody I duo with queue dodges (or at least not when they are with me) and I only duo with the people at the top parts of the leaderboard so I don’t think this is a problem.

As for not queuing unless in a duo, I do accept that this is a problem, but as I said, we MUST put up with this so ranked can be fun for all. It is not right to punish people for being good at the game by taking the option to duo away from legendary players.

That is a tiny proportion of players. My ratings (before decay) is 1955 and I sit about 60th I think (or i did before decay). So that is 60 people who cannot duo, which is a tiny amount. And it would lead to a ton of more healthy games. I had evenings where I played against the same duo queue of try hards on mesmer/thief about 5 games in a row. It kills the games because your team mates get worse too.

You start off with decent ppl. Then they just quit or dodge queue and you end up with worse and worse teams vs these try hard mesmer/thief duos (about 6 different duos).

The game will just be worse if a system like this isn’t bought in. I have more or less quit again due to this issue. Its just getting farmed by duo queues with gold players on my team.

Entenkommando.5208:

Besides the list itself I’m really curious to see how exactly you determine the op’nes of these things.

Good question, although I would rather not get bogged down into the details.

It is complicated. It basically compares them against an average/healthy skill or trait to come up with the rating. A rating of 600 is considered balanced. As you can see all these traits and skills are way above this 600 mark.

PI in particular was a shocking result, it came in insanely high.

Again, thanks to all those who helped me collect the data over the last 4 weeks.

suffish.4150:

Lordrosicky.5813:

nothelseth.4621:

Lordrosicky.5813:

From a pure competitive perspective it should be solo queue only. It is a shame that a lot of the top players on eu will only duo queue usually with mesmer thief and then moa far and just snowball the whole game from there.

This hurts the game. People just quit queuing when unbalanced match ups come up.

However, alot of people like to play with friends. The solution is that the matchmaker need to have a hard lock on the difference between teams. 1800 players should never be placed against these try hard 2100 duo queues. What i am saying is that if these try hards want to duo queue and stomp at 2100 rating they should have queue times of around 15 minutes.

Both sides are accurately represented here. I for one fully support solo duo because I know the insane positive effect it has to the people who want to q but don’t want to do it solo. I find it very boring on my level of play though because if I want to stay in the top 5 I’m pretty much forced to duo. Playing soloq and landing vs 2x players from rank55 makes it impossible. Meanwhile, if I duo and those guys arent playing then it’s just my side freestomping everything.

I didnt know of this solution before but league of legends have perfectly solved it IMO. Once you hit a certain rating level you can no longer duoq in ranked. This means that if me and frae want to q at 23 then we are most definitely going to face eachother every single game which makes it x100 more interesting than if we are premading and nobody else is online.

Going to push hard for this change because I think it’d do wonders for the community.

Thats an AMAZING idea. Once you hit 1950 you cannot duo queue. That is literally perfect. It would solve all the issues and at the same time it would mean that casual players can still play with friends.

Wow i hope they do this.

I do not think this is a good idea at all. As someone who is legendary division, I would hate it to just not be able to play with my friends. Being forced to solo is a BAD idea, and no, I don’t duo just to stomp noobs. Having the ability to duo with someone allows you to have more fun, have conversations between games and discuss what has been happening in our games. Ranked would feel like a pretty lonely place if I wasn’t able to play with friends.

I accept that duo can give an unfair advantage, but it really is something that has to be endured to keep ranked as fun as it can be.

No because highish level ranked is basically dead now as its a bunch of try hard duo queues farming low plat players as everyone is dodge queuing each other/not queuing unless they are duo.

Hi people, Henry back again. How we all doing?

So after 4 weeks of intense calculations, studying and running the numbers; I can now reveal what the most OP traits and skills are in GW2. It was a tough process to find these 10 things. But I have managed it.

1, Pulmonary impact – this trait came in at an OP rating of 2325. It is simply way too good and it kills so many builds on its own.

2, Signet of illusions – this skill came in at an OP rating of 1623.4. Obviously alot lower than PI but still way too OP given my calculations. CD needs to be doubled.

3, Ancient seeds. OP rating of 1450. It is just way way too strong. This is a new addition after my team reran the numbers.

4, Arc divider – the damage of this thing is crazy given its range and lack of CD. Came in at an OP rating of 1367.

5, Ancestral Grace – Came in at an OP rating of 1327. It is absurd this mobility

6, Unhindered combatant – came in at an OP rating of 1315. The whole thing is a joke that isn’t funny at all.

7, Channeled vigor – Came in at an OP rating of 1310. This skill heals for way too much given the low cd. It is an insane heal.

8, Monk’s focus – came in at an OP rating of 1297. This trait does way too much. Like really. Reduce recharge, gives fury, heals – so broken.

9, Rapid regeneration – came in at an OP rating of 1294. It does too much healing, it really is broken.

10, Restorative illusions – came in at an OP rating of 1292. This should only remove condis, the heal is totally not needed and OP

This took me a long time to do these calculations. Thank you for those who helped me to collect the data.

Many thanks,

Thoughts?

apharma.3741:

Lordrosicky.5813:

apharma.3741:

Maybe the top 250 should have to solo queue that way for them to stay top 250 they essentially have to show they are the best and carry (or do the best they can). Of course there’s always going to be fringe cases where the 240-250 spots keep fluctuating as the duo pair pushes into it then drops because the ability to coordinate with 1 other person is very strong.

However one thing I haven’t seen many bring up is that this game is a team game, it is balanced around classes and their roles within teams. Being unable to rely on your team can have a very negative effect on your ability to play depending on class and I just don’t see a solution to that tbh.

At the end of the day the system isn’t perfect but compared to previous seasons it’s a lot better and I feel it works well enough that I honestly can’t complain except for the lack of game modes.

A rating cap is way eaiser to do and also way less confusing and less feel bad for players for many reasons.

Honestly the high end games are kind of dead currently. The mesmer thief duo and push far to insta moa someone and then snowball the whole map from there……that is ruining the higher queues. People are dodge queuing alot. And then a bunch of 1800 get matched with the try hards and just quit.

I guess a rating cap or limit makes it easier but you will still get those fringe cases where those on the edge will keep pushing up or down as they duo or not duo.

If it’s the legendary rank and it essentially means those people going up or down are not likely to lose a title due to loses vs duo queue players then yeah I agree ratings is better. As you say easier to implement and understand.

Well its killing the higher end pvp currently. I know this sounds exaggerating but it is true. People dodge queuing the duo queues happens. And these duo queues are just ruining so many games with far push into moa + thief spike into snowball the whole game because people dont regroup.

Nothelseth’s solution is perfect and urgent for next season.

apharma.3741:

Maybe the top 250 should have to solo queue that way for them to stay top 250 they essentially have to show they are the best and carry (or do the best they can). Of course there’s always going to be fringe cases where the 240-250 spots keep fluctuating as the duo pair pushes into it then drops because the ability to coordinate with 1 other person is very strong.

However one thing I haven’t seen many bring up is that this game is a team game, it is balanced around classes and their roles within teams. Being unable to rely on your team can have a very negative effect on your ability to play depending on class and I just don’t see a solution to that tbh.

At the end of the day the system isn’t perfect but compared to previous seasons it’s a lot better and I feel it works well enough that I honestly can’t complain except for the lack of game modes.

A rating cap is way eaiser to do and also way less confusing and less feel bad for players for many reasons.

Honestly the high end games are kind of dead currently. The mesmer thief duo and push far to insta moa someone and then snowball the whole map from there……that is ruining the higher queues. People are dodge queuing alot. And then a bunch of 1800 get matched with the try hards and just quit.

It makes sense to buff core DS as it adds to build diversity. Necro is one of the only classes that didnt receive a strict upgrade to its core profession in HOT. RS replaced DS rather than added to it. Contrast this with classes like mesmer which simply received an extra skill.

As such, it would help alot if these changes to DS were made. Most agree with them:
1, Add stability and reduce the cd of DS#5
2, Add a pulsing condition to DS#4, also reduce its cd a little
3, Reduce the cd slighlty of DS#2

Anything less than this is pointless.

nothelseth.4621:

Lordrosicky.5813:

From a pure competitive perspective it should be solo queue only. It is a shame that a lot of the top players on eu will only duo queue usually with mesmer thief and then moa far and just snowball the whole game from there.

This hurts the game. People just quit queuing when unbalanced match ups come up.

However, alot of people like to play with friends. The solution is that the matchmaker need to have a hard lock on the difference between teams. 1800 players should never be placed against these try hard 2100 duo queues. What i am saying is that if these try hards want to duo queue and stomp at 2100 rating they should have queue times of around 15 minutes.

Both sides are accurately represented here. I for one fully support solo duo because I know the insane positive effect it has to the people who want to q but don’t want to do it solo. I find it very boring on my level of play though because if I want to stay in the top 5 I’m pretty much forced to duo. Playing soloq and landing vs 2x players from rank55 makes it impossible. Meanwhile, if I duo and those guys arent playing then it’s just my side freestomping everything.

I didnt know of this solution before but league of legends have perfectly solved it IMO. Once you hit a certain rating level you can no longer duoq in ranked. This means that if me and frae want to q at 23 then we are most definitely going to face eachother every single game which makes it x100 more interesting than if we are premading and nobody else is online.

Going to push hard for this change because I think it’d do wonders for the community.

Thats an AMAZING idea. Once you hit 1950 you cannot duo queue. That is literally perfect. It would solve all the issues and at the same time it would mean that casual players can still play with friends.

Wow i hope they do this.

The designers of this game should have come up with a coherent system. Here is what we need:
1, a ranked system with an mmr leaderboard for solo players which we currently have

2, automated 16 team tournaments at 5pm on saturdays. If not enough teams sign up then the tournament goes ahead with however many there is. The teams must pay entry in gold. The winning team and 2nd place receive gems. This tournament happens every saturday during the season

3, these teams are seeded according to the average rating of their players from solo queue.

4, these tournaments should be streamed

5, once a team wins, they win entry to an end of season tournament with small cash prizes (Say 1000 dollars for first). The season runs 8 weeks so there will be 8 teams in this end of season tournament

6, once a player wins a tournament with a roster he cannot play any further automated saturday tournaments as he is already qualified for the end of season tournament.

Advantages of this system is that it is accessible, it gives regular competition for teams to play around and improve.
It is cheap to fund.
It markets the game.
It fits into the season system.
It lets players regularly compete for small prizes.
It distributes prize money more widely to help more teams develop.
It provides a starting point, if pvp grows from this and viewership grows then this can fuel an organic world championship with bigger prizes rather than manufacturing these big tournaments.

Anet make money.
Players have fun.

Everyone wins.

xeonage.1253:

The gap sure huge in this game. HoT make this block block block inv inv dodge dodge dodge 12345 off + def same time….. this kittening combat system just for 10% or less high skill player who know the timing and have a good net speed. Other? just make a lucky hit or do not make enough damage to kill anyone.

You except need to know skill rotation for your class and
You MUST need to know all other class their skill rotation.
If not, you just have two result:
1.You can’t make any damage for any enemy because of less touch time in that block block block 12345 rotation. even if you know that rotation. you also need to know How to Burst. If not, you still can’t make any kill or enough damage.
2.Dead in a Sec. The damage all are out of control because of less touch time. If you a New player that you don’t know how all other class skill rotation work and don’t make your def rotation. You sure Die.
If Anet think a new player can do above things that main they all are crazy. New player even can’t make a right time dodge. who want to play a game that die again again and again? how many ppls can keep to play it until they know all class skill? That why GW2 have this poor player base.

I agree. This is build wars. The best players are just the ones who know how to play around other classes rather than those with quick reflexes or clever thinking. The builds carry ths play so when you play against a player you just have to beat their build not them as a person.

Ithilwen.1529:

The OP’s action demonstrates that “smurfing” works.

It doesn’t logically relate to “elo hell” or related terms.

To demonstrate the non existence of “elo hell” you’d need to take a player of suitable skill level and have them break through the alleged barrier. Even then, it would be only anecdotal evidence.

On that basis, the OP is incorrect.

Wtf, i am losing faith in the forums with this thread. This is simple maths. He is proving that you wont get stuck at a rating if you are too good for that rating.

He is not proving that a gold player can get out of gold. Because they shouldnt get out of gold. That is literally the whole point.

From a pure competitive perspective it should be solo queue only. It is a shame that a lot of the top players on eu will only duo queue usually with mesmer thief and then moa far and just snowball the whole game from there.

This hurts the game. People just quit queuing when unbalanced match ups come up.

However, alot of people like to play with friends. The solution is that the matchmaker need to have a hard lock on the difference between teams. 1800 players should never be placed against these try hard 2100 duo queues. What i am saying is that if these try hards want to duo queue and stomp at 2100 rating they should have queue times of around 15 minutes.

Soothsayer.9206:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Soothsayer.9206:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Soothsayer.9206:

nothelseth.4621:

Blue.1207:

Impressive, you’ve proved that you’re a good player (no kitten). This is a sample size of 1. This proves nothing in the grand scheme of things. I’m probably leaning towards the sheer luck that you got in terms of team comp and your teammates skill level. I don’t think it matters how good you are individually if the rest of your team came straight out of queensdale.

groan

did you watch any of the streams?

what would watching the streams prove? nothing. just like this whole manufactured business of how an elite level player was able to get back to his actual level after starting out at the lowest tier.

Dude that is the point. The fact he is an elite level player does not matter. The point is that if you skill rating does not reflect your actual skill then you will climb. It is nothing to do with this particular individual so stop getting obsessed with it. It shows that you get where you belong (or close to where you belong).

Lets say you are a gold t1 players and place at bronze. You will still climb up easily out of bronze. Your climb will slow as you near your actual skill rating.

only proves that he took advantage of people who had no business playing against him. he should have easily climbed out of bronze, but doesn’t debunk anything for people who are actually stuck for various reasons not necessarily associated with skill(again, match manipulation is a real issue currently and some will get stuck).
again, what is skill level? it’s certainly not = to MMR (which is a reflection of the teams you are on more than your actual personal skill level – this is a two-edged sword because sometimes you will be the one with high MMR and sometimes you will not be). so it seems artificial to talk about tier and equated it to personal skill because there are some who are expected to carry and some who are carried.

But mmr does equate to skill. It isnt perfect due to variance, but it is very close. That is the whole point of him saying he placed at whatever and moved to 2000 or whatever he moved to.

Your personal mmr reflects your personal skill. I just cant believe you are arguing against this. Just because its a team game doesnt mean you individually dont impact the outcome as the team is made up of individuals.

All the stuff you talk about adds variance, it does not make the mmr meaningless.

Its not perfect due to variance, duo queue and other things. But it is pretty accurate.

Personal MMR cannot reflect your individual, personal skill level and that is by design – you are always dependent on others (4 others) and that contribution is significantly greater than your personal contribution no matter how much we want to believe otherwise. That’s why match manipulation is so frustrating and damaging, it kills your win/loss ratio and tanks your MMR over and against your best efforts. So, some will actually be better than MMR reflects (they will be held back), and at the same time some will be worse (they are carried). Therefore, MMR equates the teams (the totality of teams) you are on, rather than you personal skill level. I do not want to deny some need a reality check because they are not as good as they think, but at the time, I do believe the frustration of others who may genuinely be better than the MMR reflects.

Dude your view has been debunked by the very fact the OP went from bronze to legend. Yet you are still arguing that mmr doesnt reflect skill. Teams are made up of individuals. So the collective of the individuals determines whether you win or lose. Its really not complicated.

Put Michael Phelps in 100 random relay TEAMS against 100 relay teams and he will win more than anyone else so his MMR will go up and up to reflect that. Will he win every time? Nope. But his contributions help his team to win more often than not and so his mmr will eventually reflect this.

Soothsayer.9206:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Soothsayer.9206:

nothelseth.4621:

Blue.1207:

Impressive, you’ve proved that you’re a good player (no kitten). This is a sample size of 1. This proves nothing in the grand scheme of things. I’m probably leaning towards the sheer luck that you got in terms of team comp and your teammates skill level. I don’t think it matters how good you are individually if the rest of your team came straight out of queensdale.

groan

did you watch any of the streams?

what would watching the streams prove? nothing. just like this whole manufactured business of how an elite level player was able to get back to his actual level after starting out at the lowest tier.

Dude that is the point. The fact he is an elite level player does not matter. The point is that if you skill rating does not reflect your actual skill then you will climb. It is nothing to do with this particular individual so stop getting obsessed with it. It shows that you get where you belong (or close to where you belong).

Lets say you are a gold t1 players and place at bronze. You will still climb up easily out of bronze. Your climb will slow as you near your actual skill rating.

only proves that he took advantage of people who had no business playing against him. he should have easily climbed out of bronze, but doesn’t debunk anything for people who are actually stuck for various reasons not necessarily associated with skill(again, match manipulation is a real issue currently and some will get stuck).
again, what is skill level? it’s certainly not = to MMR (which is a reflection of the teams you are on more than your actual personal skill level – this is a two-edged sword because sometimes you will be the one with high MMR and sometimes you will not be). so it seems artificial to talk about tier and equated it to personal skill because there are some who are expected to carry and some who are carried.

But mmr does equate to skill. It isnt perfect due to variance, but it is very close. That is the whole point of him saying he placed at whatever and moved to 2000 or whatever he moved to.

Your personal mmr reflects your personal skill. I just cant believe you are arguing against this. Just because its a team game doesnt mean you individually dont impact the outcome as the team is made up of individuals.

All the stuff you talk about adds variance, it does not make the mmr meaningless.

Its not perfect due to variance, duo queue and other things. But it is pretty accurate.