Guild Wars 2

Emdrix.6124:

but how are people gonna farm bads at offf peak hours and pretend they are good at the game if they remove duo Q??

Imagine how fun the games would be in solo queue only. The system 3 years ago worked. Solo queue with a ladder. And team queue for any party size with a ladder. It was simple and effective.

Solstace.2514:

I guarantee you will get destroyed against any competent player if you are mindlessly spamming skills.

Nah you wont.

Reaper Alim.4176:

That will not fix anyone’s problems tho. There are only a few fixes to such problems.

A.) ANet just completely scrap the new MM.

They would have to create a match maker system that is completely tailored made for the special needs of GW2 and it’s remaining PvP community. With out this happening all is vain and match quality will still be trash level.

B.) ANet is going to have to start giving players who outperformed but lost match due to having silly team mates, way less loss on their ratings. And if you outperformed and carried a bunch of silly team mates to the victory. The system should have to give said players a huge amount of rating to help get him or her to where they should be.

C.) Decay needs to be way more server and forces players more so leader board players to play at least 2 or 3 games a day. If you can’t be active in a supposed competitive PvP event then you simply just don’t deserve that spot on the leader board that you have.

Duo is not that problem here. The problem is ANet is using a MM that requires a huge amount of players in order to be successful. However since the previous seasons with this MM have made informed PvPers fed to the point they no longer play anymore. There for the MM does can not perform it’s duty’s under the current conditions. It just creates more and more of those conditions that make players hate PvPing in GW2 to the point even more leave.

The Duos can stay. However the current MM system just needs to be completely replaced by a system that can deal with such a small community even if ANet has to create it them selves. At this point it’s nothing more then {b] how bad ANet want PvP to be successful{/b]. If ANet really wants it, they will have to pour in the resources and man power to do so. The more probable outcome is that ANet just put’s PvP like WvW has been for some time now into complete life support, to go spend more time on the up coming expansions, PvE content, and gem store items.

Actually duo queue is the problem because it removes flexibility from the matchmaking system which makes it less efficient at its role. This is not an opinion, it is basic numeration.

Its true that meta builds are so strong that non meta builds are just pathetically bad.

It doesnt require any skill. It is based on repetition and knowledge of match ups and skills. It is also based on builds. There is basically no skill to this game at all

Ds 4 should pulse posion or bleed or something. Ds5 should grant stability because that is the skill that you press and then can do things after.

Your ideas in no way make core death shroud good. Everything is so powerful nowadays that changes like yours would never cut it

Life siphon should be better too I agree with people. But I think consume needs a lower cast time and honestly the shout heal needs more healing or something.

Compare the shout heal to thieves new heal.

And just ruins the game in general. It is stupid.

Scenario:
The highest 10 people queueing are 8 people around 1850 and 2 people around 2050.
If the game was solo queue only a balanced match could be created.
Instead, if the two people around 2050 are both duo queued together then it is impossible to create a mathematically fair match up, so the result will be a one sided boring game.
In addition the duo queue will likely be playing classes that compliment each other.

The result:
Everyone quits or gets toxic because the games are all blow outs.

Solution:
The game should be solo queue only. If someone wants to duo queue let them go unranked.

Are you the sort of ranger who has a necro comp vs a thief comp and you push far alone all game when you are the teams only support? If so this is why you lose and you are the problem, and whether you win your 1v1s does not matter.

Muchacho.2390:

Sarrs.4831:

Lordrosicky.5813:

It should heal through shroud. That would make it viable and would not be OP

It doesn’t atm? Thought it did
Absolutely needs to yeah

No it doesnt.

Anet also needs to do something about the regeneration boon. We can keep it up permantly easily (depending on the build ofc) but yet it doesnt do anything while in shroud. If the healing in shroud is to strong (which i seriously doubt) it should do something else while in shroud (like 1% lf per sec).

Yeh thats what regen should do. If in shroud it should give regen to your life force. In addition, traits like unholy santuary need more healing. It should have its healing increased by around 100% at least.

Kuya.6495:

I think if the icd actually helps bad thfs by keeping from spamming head shot, then adding an icd is definitely a good thing because it instills good habits (ie: not spamming). I just want the icd not to be something stupid like 20 seconds, that’s too much. I think anywhere from 2-5 seconds icd is reasonable.

Furthermore, unlike most of the people who seem to want an icd on IP, i honestly don’t see how it’s practical to spam head shot. If i use black powder, followed by heartseeker and steal to land a HS and backstab. That’s already 9 initiative, leaving 6 points left for one head shot, and then you gotta wait for more initiative. I don’t see head shot spamming as a problem unless the thf doesn’t open with HS+BP and i don’t see why you wouldn’t do that as a thf.

2-5 second icd does literally nothing. Most of these sort of traits have a 10s icd and that would be suitable. Otherwise a damage reduction or an increase in headshotnini cost would do

Cynz.9437:

Crinn.7864:

Cynz.9437:

Thing is, why should a dps class that can be easily ignored by half of the classes, and deals mainly single target damage (not even highest in game) at costs of survivability have it’s damage nerfed?

Because that dps class is completely uncatchable by anything that isn’t itself.

The only way to handle a thief is to have your own thief. period. This violates the first rule of balance which is that the best counter to a class cannot be itself.

DH, engi, and war are not counters to thief because they cannot catch a thief. Only revs and chrono have a hope of touching a thief and but those classes are countered hard by thief.

Wrong. Druid can easily prevent thief from decaps or +1 someone due to short CD on RTL. Revs still have their mobility that allows them to follow thief. DHs have teleports.

Thief has counters, which is scrapper, DH, druid, war or just generally… you know, MAP AWARENESS.

Your statement would be true if we were talking about wvw but we are not. PvP is all about holding points and those classes don’t just counter thief, they are also amazing point holders. You don’t have to play for 3 points when you can bunker down 2 and those classes are really good at it.

Mes is not hardcountered by thief…… they have around 50% chance to kill each other. Same goes for rev. Hardcounter is when you have 0 chance to win vs other class (e.g. thief can’t touch scrapper or scrapper simply gets eaten alive by necros).

Yeh but everyone plays 3 cap regardless so that isnt an arguement. I have played in 2 necro comps as a total glass necro (with no lf generation) vs 2 thief comps and people still push far solo. Pi is just too strong. And there is no counterplay.

Cynz.9437:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Irrelevant. besides. 2 thief comp is most likely really good in ranked.

The problem is there are many builds and classes which cannot exist because of A SINGLE TRAIT. Everytime I die…I would say like 50% of them are to thieves. And then I look at kill feed. Its 12k PI procs. 3 procs for 12k……Not to mention the easy 8k backstabs with no counter play.

You can’t do anything against it short of not casting spells. If you dont cast spells you die anyway. Mesmer and warrior might also be really strong but it isn’t even comparable.

Want to play damage ele? Nope, PI. Want to play damage mesmer? Nope, PI. Want to play condi necro? Nope, PI. Want to play power ranger? Nope, PI.

As for thieves moaning about killing too slow. Like really? You still kill an ele 1v1 easily. It takes like 30 seconds. Do you need to 1 shot everything or something?

The whole game is miserable because of passive 12k damage from instant cast ranged dazes. Headshot is amazing without PI. It can interrupt anything. Now with PI you add massive damage to this amazing skill.

This thief spec, I have heard, is also the easiest to play. Lastly, this isn’t some top tier thing. My rating is 1900 before decay and when levelling up there were 1500 rated thieves who caused me serious issues purely due to PI passive procs with zero counter play. You already have 9k backstabs and auto attacks that hit like a warrior….

This is the most OP build I have seen in my 2 years playing this game.

- 2 thieves is not a good comp given same skill level across 2 teams. It is guaranteed loss.
- Many builds that can’t exist because of a single trait? Like what. Give me some examples. Of course you would die a lot to thieves, you are a necro, a thief would be dumb not to focus you. You know what my death log looks like on scrapper? Poison, torment, burning, etc. By your logic necros need hefty nerfs because as a scrapper i might as well afk at spawn if enemy has a necro.

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log. Once again, i take more damage from necro weapon swap alone than PI will ever do. 8k backstab on necro? How? Did you afk or something? 8k backstab on a necro is not happening unless you have crapload of vulnerability on you and thief has might stacks. Given how necro applies weakness 24/7 i don’t see 8k backstabs happening. Also, backstab has plenty of counters…. (blocks, blinds, invuls, protection, etc.).

- FA ele doesn.t fail because of PI, FA ele dies to literary everything in this meta. Nobody played thieves in s1, where were all those FA eles? RRrrright, nobody played them despite thieves not existing in pvp.

- Actually people play dps mes, it is just not as good as condi build atm. Once again, when thieves didn’t exist in s1, nobody bothered playing shatter – your point is

- HS can’t interrupt everything due to reflects, stab, blocks, blinds etc. 3k is hardly a massive dmg…. especially on tanky builds like druid.

- then why don’t you play it when it is so easy? Go play that “easy” spec, post some videos of your epic plays, in plat please.

- once again, you play necro, there is a class that counters you, deal with it. Also, there are counters to PI, it is your choice not to use them.

- so which is it 8k backstabs or 9k lol? The number seems to increase with every line you type lol.

- yeaaaah, too bad thief doesn’t have sustain of a warrior and can stay in melee only for like 2 sec.

- pretty sure revs at HoT launch were more broken lol. Also, you clearly didn’t experience dhumfire necros xD

This was a good try though, Henry. I wouldn’t bite but certain people take it really serious.

@apharma.3741: assuming same skill level and everyone running meta, i am pretty sure double thief team is more at disadvantage than double mes or double necro comp. You may win some fights but thief is simply not capable of holding point and points win games.

Come on dude. I know that you know thief is op and pi in particular is broken. Look what they did to dhuumfire. They nerfed it into oblivion. Your best bet would be to argue for how to nerf pi but not make it worthless. By saying its not op you lose credibility.

Maybe a 15% damage reduction? Maybe a ten second icd? The trait would still be good in both cases.

I would nerf the dps by 15% and make it not proc on auto attacks. This nerf might not be enough, but it would be a start towards fixing the game.

I wouldnt know about hot revs as i have only played gw2 hot for 5 weeks

Annabel.5127:

Erzian.5218:

Annabel.5127:

Where was all this QQ months ago?

Thief hasn’t changed, and the only thing that has is players mentalities.

Every non-thief, non-warrior class has received massive nerfs which is an indirect buff to thief and warrior. One could argue that reaper hasn’t been nerfed for a while as well, but it has always been countered by daredevil, so it doesn’t matter.

Mesmer did not receive what anybody would call ’ a massive nerf ’ it switched to sages amulet from carrion to compensate for how healing power scales with it’s trait and a slightly longer shield cooldown. my point is this particular matchup of thief vs mesmer has not changed, which is why I said I consider the basis for the nerf ridiculous.

Is there some other matchup thief used to lose that it now wins?? not warrior, not engi, not druid, not dragonhunter.
The ‘massive nerfs’ you talk about have not given thief the capability to 1v1 any of its prior hard counters.

Like I said, only players like you who have had their mentality changed based on what they read or hear from other players suddenly think thief needs to be nerfed.

So I’ll ask again — if nothing has fundamentally changed, where was the QQ months ago?

exactly, it didn’t exist. why? because thief isn’t broken, Helseth just doesnt want to worry about good thieves, and bronze forum warrior kids need something new to cry about after losing their ranked q.

This isnt about helseth. Its obvious thief is too good. Mesmer and warrior are also too good but they arent like thief. Thief is vastly op. Mesmer is strong but whatever. In an ideal world it should be nerfed but its not urgent like thief which ruins the game.

Just because helseth is toxic af, it doesnt mean thief shouldnt be nerfed. Try and listen to the logic and ignore the messenger

Cynz.9437:

This is just sad actually. Atm when you have 2 thieves on team people already throw tantrum and demand thieves to reroll. Gets even worse if we have 3 but hey thief is OP, yo.

Worst part, so here are all these necro/mes mains demanding thief nerfs but my experience from last seasons also showed that this very same people demand you to reroll to another class if you land on their team as a thief when the class is not doing so well (e.g. season 1).

Also,
1. " you need a thief to counter thief in Pro League tournaments": not true, depending on map you actually don’t (e.g. Forefire). Also, you need to have an ele and preferably a druid. So it is ok for those, but not ok for needing a thief to counter enemy thief? Double standards anyone? I mean by that logic ele, scrapper, druid needs to be nerfed.

2. In normal ranked thief heavily depends on his team doing well. If team is not doing well, you can’t “carry”. Definition of OP is when you actually 1v1 most classes, 1v2, 1v3 and hold point and preferably rotate fast. Thief can’t do any of that beside rotating. Thief damage is not even highest among current meta builds, they also have lowest sustain in game as well. “How dare glass cannon build deal damage!” – this is what all complains here boil down to. HS/IP also has a lot of counters, not just 1 or 2, multiple of them (blocks, blinds, stab, counter cc, LOS, dodge, reflects, stealth – every class has at least one of those; i am not even going to start on damage reduction traits). Skill is broken when there is little counter to it and it is too rewarding. 3k (on a good day) requiring to successfully interrupt something is hardly broken. A weapon swap from necro does more dmg to my thief than i do to necro with IP (and he has almost double of my thief’s HP).

But let’s keep it short: to all this necros/mes and co complainers, answer me this question. How do you explain, assuming thief is OP, that stacking necros is viable, stacking mes is viable, but having more than 1 thief on a team results in a loss in most cases? I am struggling with contradiction here.

Irrelevant. besides. 2 thief comp is most likely really good in ranked.

The problem is there are many builds and classes which cannot exist because of A SINGLE TRAIT. Everytime I die…I would say like 50% of them are to thieves. And then I look at kill feed. Its 12k PI procs. 3 procs for 12k……Not to mention the easy 8k backstabs with no counter play.

You can’t do anything against it short of not casting spells. If you dont cast spells you die anyway. Mesmer and warrior might also be really strong but it isn’t even comparable.

Want to play damage ele? Nope, PI. Want to play damage mesmer? Nope, PI. Want to play condi necro? Nope, PI. Want to play power ranger? Nope, PI.

As for thieves moaning about killing too slow. Like really? You still kill an ele 1v1 easily. It takes like 30 seconds. Do you need to 1 shot everything or something?

The whole game is miserable because of passive 12k damage from instant cast ranged dazes. Headshot is amazing without PI. It can interrupt anything. Now with PI you add massive damage to this amazing skill.

This thief spec, I have heard, is also the easiest to play. Lastly, this isn’t some top tier thing. My rating is 1900 before decay and when levelling up there were 1500 rated thieves who caused me serious issues purely due to PI passive procs with zero counter play. You already have 9k backstabs and auto attacks that hit like a warrior….

This is the most OP build I have seen in my 2 years playing this game.

Sarrs.4831:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Well of blood = should heal through deathshroud, should be a water field (makes no sense I know) and should cleanse a condition each pulse.

Nah it makes sense. Blood is mostly water.

narcx.3570:

I’d like to see Parasitic Contagion moved to a spot where you can actually consider taking it. Or just merged into Vampric Presence—although that’d prolly end up being OP and getting things over-nerfed and leaving us in a worse state.

Parasitic Contagion is fine where it is, it just needs to have an actually decent amount of healing, and if possible some form of Healing Power scaling.

It should heal through shroud. That would make it viable and would not be OP

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Rickster.8752:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

That is my point. You should be able to dodge it. Hence why a 0.75s cast time is fair to all concerned.

You can dodge it. That is my point… the projectile still has travel time and does have a precast ans animation to tip you off.

This is silly. The Thief is looking to interrupt. Therefor he’s waiting to fire only when his target is deciding to cast. If the target is casting he’s actively engaging in skill use. Mentally he’s committing to said action to the exclusion of all other actions. In otherwords, no player is waiting for a headshot animation to dodge it. It is only going to occur when they choose to cast, at which point they’ve committed to not dodging!

Your assertion that they can dodge it, while true, is blatantly ridiculous given the whole purpose of headshot and PI to begin with. Because what’s possible isn’t the same as what’s reasonable.

For the record, damage on interrupt isnt necessarily bad (see Mesmer). It’s only bad on thief. Why? Same as all thief complaints from the dawning of time, initiative system and spammable skill use etc etc. Dumbdumbdumbdumbdumb.

They have a choice interrupt there Spell cast and not eat damage by dodging or eat damage and still not get the skill off, hmm choices a player should always constantly evaluate what is best in the situation. Counterplay is still counterplay. It would be stupid not to self interrupt and avoid the damage then to eat the damage and still not get the Spell off.

This is moronic. The obvious best choice in your scenario is to not cast at all, ever. The mathcup in relation to thief is the problem simply because the thiefs access to his interrupt counter is without end, and without counterplay. Headshot’s also the least of the problem skills since Thief has far more access to interrupts than just that.

Anyway, it’s pretty clear you have very little understanding of interrupt gameplay, and how on thief it turns a basic counter element into a ridiculous feature once PI is introduced. I’ll say again, when we compare it to Power Block on Mesmer, there’s no problem. Why? General class balance in things like trait line investment, access to cc’s, relevant CD’s of those skills, overall class mechanics etc.

lol you know something is OP when a single trait is causing people to say “just dont cast any spell!!!”. Really? lol. I tried that btw and then you just die to thieves insane auto attack damage.

DeceiverX.8361:

babazhook.6805:

DeceiverX.8361:

Mal.1670:

apharma.3741:

You could also take a leaf out of revs books and make headshot a longer daze but with kitten CD….

Either way this thread will be a salt mine, let me grab my popcorn.

Thief weapons skills don’t have cooldowns, so how would you even accomplish that lol

The way they did for stealth attacks; ANet doesn’t care.

2s ICD would probably make the trait plenty usable and hit spammers while giving stab-less/limited-stab professions like necro a little bit of relief.

I doubt there many thieves that spam headshot multiple times in less then two seconds. It just too easy to counter. If they are just spamming headshot without waiting to see if the opponent is trying to use (Which takes time) a skill all you do is stop trying to cast skills and let them spam. The damage is miniscule.

I play a thief mostly and will encounter these headshot spams time to time. I just stop using skills for a few seconds and am peferectly willing to have that thief burn off ini doing nothing.

In other words a 2 second ICD will simply help the bad thieves and do little to change this argument.

I was once watching a teamate in wvw fight a p/p thief. The theif died about 10 times in a row. He was fighting an ele while using unload and every single time the ele threw up a reflect kept firing. The ele used that tendency against the thief just as any class can do against the headshot spam.

Yes, and for the exact opposite scenario you cited; builds with limited stability and reflects for example have limited to no counterplay to it and take tons of damage while not being able to cast abilities or really do anything, either. As I’ve said repeatedly in this thread, the very nature of PI spam should be nerfed because it’s overly-punishing to builds already-susceptible to being interrupted. D/P has the tools to get around projectile hate and blocks as well via Shadow Shot, too.

Which is also why I proposed the 2s ICD; it negates the efficacy of just mindlessly spamming 4 and reduces the punishment via raw damage for chain-interrupting your target (the thief already has great damage from its AA) while not impacting reasonably-skilled play. This also lets PI achieve its full damage over a longer period of time against builds with more stab access or projectile hate while not really reducing the efficacy of its damage when used in most scenarios.

As intended, this is only supposed to hurt unskilled play resulting in efficacy due to matchup, rather than just being a strict nerf to the thief’s interrupt potential or reducing the damage on PI which depending on the tier of play is seen as close to essential.

A 2 s icd is worthless. Think about why for a second. You hit it once and they are dazed so you wont hit another for at least 2 seconds. If there is to be an icd it should be 15 seconds or something. If its a damage nerf then about 25%

Kuya.6495:

I think there are two separate complaints about thf right now:

1. one complaint is that thf has no reliable counter at higher levels of play. not in terms of 1v1, because a thf can always be either defeated or matched by a dh, war or engi, but because these 3 counters don’t have the mobility to keep up with a thf’s decaps and +1.

2. the other complaint is from the lower levels of play where, especially classes with limited access to stability, get spam interrupted by thfs basically dying without being able to mount a response. There’s also the issue whether vault spam and condi spam thf variants deserve a nerf.

I think complaint number 1 is very interesting and requires more discussion. Complaint number 2, i think, can simply be resolved by switching to classes that aren’t so vulnerable to thf, such as engi, dh or war. The issue with infinite evade thf variants should probably be looked at (much like the full trapper dh which at this point should probably just be put out to pasture since it’s not really a good build).

No, switching classes is not a solution. Remember when s/d thief rekt mesmer? Well its like that now for necros. A thief can just farm you all game and you cant escape them because its a thief. Even though necro kills things like engi, the engi can get away. They also can survive for a while and can position themselves correctly to not get spiked by the necro. With thief it is irrelevant where you position. The thief will port on you and spam you down.

Thief is so mobile that it really hurts the game when they are massively hard countering certain classes (any squishy with no stability basically). PI is the culprit for all these specs which get farmed by thieves. Hence it helps the game to nerf it.

Moonsinn.5382:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Moonsinn.5382:

Yeah let’s nerf dagger aa damage, ID, vault, SS. Thieves just do too much damage in general for the amount of sustain and team support. I mean, I was fighting a perfectly fun 1v1 once, and this thief came out of nowhere and killed me. This should not be allowed.

/end sarcasm

This thread is the biggest joke I’ve seen in the forums in a long time. Thieves (and ID) are not wrecking the game. Thieves are honestly one of the few professions that have a risk/reward playstyle right now, and ID in particular is a trait that you must take as a tradeoff with one of the best condi cleanses the class has.

Whats the risk? Thieves have the highest sustain in the game. A thief should never really die such is their sustain. Huge evasion and decent healing.

Also the most mobile class shouldn’t be a juggernaut in actual fights. That is bad for the game.

Oh they can escape, but that’s not sustain. Sustain, to me, means being able to provide steady pressure while surviving pressure. Any d/p thief under pressure will have to use defensive skills to survive. They absolutely have to have high dps in order to not be useless. These are geurilla tactics.

And I completely disagree that the most mobile class shouldn’t be a juggernaut. They shouldn’t be tanky, but they need to be like the light brigade, getting to critical battles to turn the tide quickly and move on.

Sustain = damage avoidance. A thief can sustain for a long time as they can chain about 9 dodges in a row. In addition their heals are very strong and heal for alot. Their sustain is amazing.

Alot of solo queue games are decided by who has the better thief. As the dude above me said that is not good design.

Moonsinn.5382:

Yeah let’s nerf dagger aa damage, ID, vault, SS. Thieves just do too much damage in general for the amount of sustain and team support. I mean, I was fighting a perfectly fun 1v1 once, and this thief came out of nowhere and killed me. This should not be allowed.

/end sarcasm

This thread is the biggest joke I’ve seen in the forums in a long time. Thieves (and ID) are not wrecking the game. Thieves are honestly one of the few professions that have a risk/reward playstyle right now, and ID in particular is a trait that you must take as a tradeoff with one of the best condi cleanses the class has.

Whats the risk? Thieves have the highest sustain in the game. A thief should never really die such is their sustain. Huge evasion and decent healing.

Also the most mobile class shouldn’t be a juggernaut in actual fights. That is bad for the game.

PI reminds me of dhumfire honestly. Passive trait which is just slaying everyone.

I just cant believe people dont see pi or thief as an issue. If i think back to eles early game, to hambow warriors, to sd thieves….i would say thief is more unbalanced than all of those. Pi is the best trait in the game. When i die its usually like 11k damage to pi. A single trait. In what world is that acceptable?

I cast stuff and i die to pi procs. I dont cast stuff or i stow and i just get auto attacked for 4k very frequently.

flow.6043:

Lordrosicky.5813:

The minion thing = Ok fine. It does its job. I would make him look cooler though.

Doesn’t heal through Shroud.

Also, you forgot Vamp Signet, and its leeching charges don’t heal through Shroud either.

There you go. Two more changes needed

That condi thief spec in general should be nerfed. It is not fun or good for the game at all.

Well of blood = should heal through deathshroud, should be a water field (makes no sense I know) and should cleanse a condition each pulse.

Consume conditions = Tough one due to master of corruption. But I would like to see this changed so that its base cd in 25 second again. Also the cast time needs to be 3/4 seconds.

The minion thing = Ok fine. It does its job. I would make him look cooler though.

The shout = I think the healing is slightly too low. I would like to see it give 10% life force not 5%

BloodriverTim.2031:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Kuya.6495:

I don’t understand your scenario at all. How does a 5v5 turn into a 4v4 where your team is on low health with no cds but the enemy team doesn’t suffer the same consequences? Your scenario basically assumes the enemy isn’t trying to dps or heal.

It actually makes more sense to me for the thf to quickly decap far after getting a kill at mid. If the thf decaps far, the respawn might be tempted to waste their time capping it rather than return to mid fight, meanwhile your thf, being the fastest roamer, can get back to mid quickly to +1 another target. The assumption here however is that the thf’s team doesn’t lose the 4v4 in which case that’s not the thf’s fault at all. In fact, if your team can’t win 4v4 and can only win 5v5 when the thf is there, it gives the impression that the thf might be carrying you.

Because your teams damage was focused on the person who died. Their teams damage was focused on someone who hasn’t died. So you have 1 person in the 4v4 who has taken alot of pressure. They do not. So it isn’t a fair 4v4 at all. Imagine this.

Your team focus their necro. They kill it and he dies. Great. But the rest of their team is full health. Their team focus your warrior. He doesn’t die. But he is now low on cds and health. So then you, as the thief, leave for 20-30 seconds. You leave your team in a bad situation. Most likely that warrior will go down because he was already pressured and because you left. And you will then lose the mid fight and snowball from there.

Your logic of “you lost the 4v4” is what most people in this game think and say and it is illogical for the reasons I stated. It happens every game. It isn’t only thieves. But it happens alot.

People overvalue caps and undervalue actually finishing the fights and winning the fights.

Understand?

This is an interesting thought, but pvp is a game of pressure, right? By decapping far, you relieve pressure from mid in a different way than +1ing mid does. It achieves roughly the same result depending on how badly your team loses the 4v4. If you go far and then 3 of the 4 of your team dies mid, you made a mistake; if, however, the two teams mid tie, when you get back to +1 again, you have relieved pressure from mid by making their now respawning player go far and are in the process of relieving more pressure mid by taking out another player.

That is another mistake. When a thief decaps, often some stupid ranger will follow him and cap the point. This is even more stupid than the thieves decap because then you let your team get outnumbered again.

By going to decap in this scenario the thief makes a mistake. But he gets rewarded for it if (say) a ranger follows him out of the mid fight to recap.

The respawning person should not go and cap the empty point either. He should go to the mid fight and try and win that. The caps don’t matter. You can always go and cap the point later.

Kuya.6495:

I think that:

1. you undervalue the amount of aoe damage the enemy team is taking during the initial confrontation

2. it seems while you didn’t state it, your scenario assumes your team doesn’t have a support ele because it’s hard to imagine a warrior going down with a tempest there to support and no peels from the other 2.

Thats irrelevant as both teams have aoe damage. Lets say each player does an arbitrary 5 damage (on average) during the initial 5v5. So each team does 25 damage (arbitrary number).

So your team maybe puts 12 of that 25 onto the target who died (reasonable assumption). The other 13 damage carries over to the 4v4. However, the other team put their whole 25 damage onto your team (probably none on you as the thief). So 25 of their damage carries over to the 4v4. So your team is at a disadvantage in the coming 4v4 after the thief leaves. Their damage from the 5v5 carries over to the 4v4. Yours does not.

The numbers arent important. The concept is. Other games do not make such fundamental mistakes as is done at ALL levels in gw2.

As for having an ele. That isn’t really relevant as we are talking logic, maths and principles here. But obviously the tankier the match is (the less damage in the match) then the less bad it is for the thief to go and decap.

The basic principle (again based on math) is that in dps comps and vs dps comps you need to focus your dps and focus on kills as the caps mean less. In bunker comp vs bunker comp then decaps matter alot more because the time to kill is higher.

I have never seen or played with a thief in this game who understands this. They play the same whether they have a 2 necro/warrior/engi/thief (dps comp) or a ele/engi/dh/warrior/thief (bunkery comp).

Warcry.1596:

But to say the enemy doesn’t have cooldowns isn’t true. They would probably be worse off since they’re trying to save their downed.

Obviously if they all die ressing (or almost die ressing) that is different. But often thieves will get a down and automatically leave. Which is really really bad for the reasons I stated.

It is much more common your team will be low on cds (or someone on your team) because they were being focussed. So that damage previously done is still in the 4v4 to come. Whereas the damage your team did on the person who died is out of the 4v4. So its a really disadvantaged 4v4 often.

Kuya.6495:

I don’t understand your scenario at all. How does a 5v5 turn into a 4v4 where your team is on low health with no cds but the enemy team doesn’t suffer the same consequences? Your scenario basically assumes the enemy isn’t trying to dps or heal.

It actually makes more sense to me for the thf to quickly decap far after getting a kill at mid. If the thf decaps far, the respawn might be tempted to waste their time capping it rather than return to mid fight, meanwhile your thf, being the fastest roamer, can get back to mid quickly to +1 another target. The assumption here however is that the thf’s team doesn’t lose the 4v4 in which case that’s not the thf’s fault at all. In fact, if your team can’t win 4v4 and can only win 5v5 when the thf is there, it gives the impression that the thf might be carrying you.

Because your teams damage was focused on the person who died. Their teams damage was focused on someone who hasn’t died. So you have 1 person in the 4v4 who has taken alot of pressure. They do not. So it isn’t a fair 4v4 at all. Imagine this.

Your team focus their necro. They kill it and he dies. Great. But the rest of their team is full health. Their team focus your warrior. He doesn’t die. But he is now low on cds and health. So then you, as the thief, leave for 20-30 seconds. You leave your team in a bad situation. Most likely that warrior will go down because he was already pressured and because you left. And you will then lose the mid fight and snowball from there.

Your logic of “you lost the 4v4” is what most people in this game think and say and it is illogical for the reasons I stated. It happens every game. It isn’t only thieves. But it happens alot.

People overvalue caps and undervalue actually finishing the fights and winning the fights.

Understand?

I swear people are way way worse at rotating now than when I used to play during the old solo queue.

Thieves. Listen. I don’t care how many 1 sided stomps you have watched in the “esports” scene where some thief decaps far alot. Stop trying to copy that stuff.

Think about it logically. You are a damage class. The highest burst in the game. As a damage class you want to be in outnumbering situations. That is what damage classes do in every game ever made.

Common scenario

When you 5v5 mid on legacy and get 1 kill, it is common for you thieves (because you just copy people and dont think for yourself) to go and decap far. Which makes no sense.

Think about it. All your teams damage and cool downs have gone on getting a kill middle. And all your enemies teams cooldowns and damage have done damage to one of your targets (probably your necro if you have one). So your necro is probably low on health and cds. Your ele probably has no cds for heals. You enemies are probably high on health as they haven’t been focused (the dude you downed and killed got focused not them)

Then you leave because you got a kill. So the its now a 4v4 where all the enemies are full health with cds and all your team is low on cds as they used them to get the kill and used them to stop whoever the enemies were focusing from dying.

So the thief leaves and the enemy then turns the fight around (as they now have a big advantage) and wipes your team. So now your decap didn’t matter. Because they get it back anyway and snowball the whole game.

In addition, thieves don’t seem to realise respawns happen. Like if we get a kill mid but dont snowball the fight and wipe them then guess what. Their respawn will come in with full cds and health and will just clean up that mid fight.

If I help 1 thief not suck from this post then I will be happy. Give a thief a direct order and they can not suck for that moment. Give them the logic of why they shouldn’t decap far so soon and maybe they can learn to not suck forever.

Depends on comp of course. In bunker vs bunker perhaps decap far more quickly. But generally the whole “get 1 kill so I go far” means you probably punt most your games despite playing the most OP class.

If you think about it logically my advice is flawless.

Pacts is a fun idea.

I like shroud personally. It is fun

BeepBoopBop.5403:

Lordrosicky.5813:

PI kills dead most of the builds that I have theory crafted. As in I will find a really good build but there is a single trait of a single class which makes it not viable. That is awful for the game.

What about PI does 30% less damage but no longer is effected by protection?

That doesn’t nerf it vs classes like engis but means it no longer kills off a ton of builds on its own.

Agree with the killing build diversity of other classes. Had the same experience when I was build testing d/d ele/tempest.

Probably why a ton of ele specs cant be played. Probably why you could never play power mesmer in part too. Or any other thief spec. Or basically any necro spec outside of a few. Or any engi spec without certain trait line. Or basically anything. it is awful. They have to nerf this trait for the good of the game as a whole because it is being killed right now.

PI kills dead most of the builds that I have theory crafted. As in I will find a really good build but there is a single trait of a single class which makes it not viable. That is awful for the game.

What about PI does 30% less damage but no longer is effected by protection?

That doesn’t nerf it vs classes like engis but means it no longer kills off a ton of builds on its own.

Alot of what the op said is not true and is a myth. This game is a long way from being solved due to the fact there is literally no esports scene. Anyone with moba or fps experience will know what i mean, there is no gw2 pro community with players so amazing. Look at the fact some of the best players dont even use things like fast cast which automatically puts people below skill cap.

Either way, this means alot of myths have emerged such as thief is not good in team fights. Thief is great in team fights as when pressured people kite then the thief can finish them easily. The problem is thieves have an obsession with decapping after getting 1 kill in a team fight.

Secondly thief can kill anything 1v1 and should never die if played correctly. Imagine thks game had truely elite gamers playing it. I know this isnt the case but they would break thief. So it is ironic seeing the l2p arguements as if people are some gaming gods. I would love to see some real pros come over from dota for a year just to see how broken they could show things as.

Everyone in gw2 sucks. We are all bad to differing degrees. So saying it should be balanced around the top tier is stupid as the top tier doesnt represent facts. I also dont believe thief is bad at the top tier of gw2 anyway. I think it is the best class at all tiers and that is by grinding up from 1040 rating in ranked.

Thief is the best 1v1 class in the game, trust me. Look at their damage and sustain. Nobody can match it. Make the best 1v1 class in the game also have huge mobility and its an issue. For me the only 2 classes i cannot beat ever 1v1 is mesmer and thief.

I hope the next elite spec is a tanky/support based shroud and the new weapon enables this (like shield or focus).

OP updated thanks to the feedback. We are making progress. Well done all.

I have collated the most common ideas in the OP. Good work people, we are making progress.

It hurts match quality ALOT. If you have the top 2 rated people in duo queue together then obviously their team will win. Which is stupid. Think about it for a second. Imagine how much more balanced the matches would be if it was solo queue only.

Cynz.9437:

Stand The Wall.6987:

reduce the damage. its the only way that makes sense. also don’t spam your skills and die to pi, but pi is still ridiculous.
forcing a player to dodge it or eat it is ludicrous lol. no one in their right mind is going to waste a dodge on pi unless theyre on their last leg.

OR you could just stow weapons… which is free

Then you die to 1 spam.

Cynz.9437:

Lol it is even worse at higher ratings since half of 250 are alt accounts/season afkers so MM can’t find equal teams so you have 4 top 10 players on one team and full team of 1700-1800 on other.

What needs to happen:
1. players shouldn’t be placed higher than 1700
2. you need to play at least 100 matches to qualify for top 250
3. rating gains/loses should depend on how close the match was. It will give motivation for players to actually try. Losing 20 ranks for 499-500 match is extremely discouraging.

I agree. Not sure on 3 though. Dont think i like it. People will still afk and it will suck even more when you lose 30 pts cos the game is unbalanced and you lose 500-0

As for the op. I placed at 1040. It is impossible to get stuck at bronze unless you belong there. People are so deluded as to their own skill level.

Crinn.7864:

babazhook.6805:

You are facing some pretty bad warriors if they do not have interrupts to use against a necro spamming skills.

The warrior does not only have those interrupts but can easily add to them with all manner of added damage.

The difference is you can juke a warrior out of their interrupts. You can’t juke a thief because they have no cooldowns. Also warrior CC doesn’t get a free 4k hit every time.

Warrior 1v1s are so much easier than thief 1v1s.

Fully agree. Warrior is fine for necro both 1v1 and in a team fight. Warrior stil, has advantage but there is counter play to the warrior. They are fun to fight vs. Thief and mesmer just own necro though. There is nothing you can do. Some games a thief will just farm you all game if you get no support.

Xca.9721:

so op mains necro, the class which gets kittened the most by warr, thief and mesmer..

Warrior is fine for necro though. You can get away from it. But most think warrior is too good. So I included it. Mesmer and thief farm necro. But that is nothing to do with this topic.

Hey people,

Henry back again, how we all doing?

It gets boring playing the same maps over and over.

That capricorn map is awesome, put that in ranked. It is really fun and cool.

The collesium map is fun although its really OP for classes that can port. Still, whatever, just add it.

Spirit watch is perfectly fine. Just add it.

All these maps should be in ranked. This would make things much more fun.

Lets do this.

Vicariuz.1605:

Warrior:
Change the blind on mace f1 primal to only happen when flanking.

Thief:
Increase Headshot initiative cost by 1.
Reduce amount of energy gained from Channeled Vigor by 15%.
Add a .3 second aftercast to Death Blossom.

Mesmer:
Reduce Portal range to 2500 from 5000.

I’d like to add however, I dont think these are the classes that need to be heavily nerfed in any way. Mesmer could use a couple changes to not make portal/moa condi chrono THE apex build.

Good ideas. Perhaps better to nerf moa than portal though. Also something needs to be done about the clone spam.

Warrior, thief and mesmer are too good currently.

All the other classes are fine.

So lets come up with some ideas how to nerf them in a fair way.

I will edit this with the best ideas in this thread and then we can contribute to the development of the game.

Early consensus
Mesmer
continium split should not work on ultimates.
Blurred frenzy cd increase

Warrior
Skullgrind should do less
Arc divider/whirlwind should do less damage

Thief
Headshot increase cost by 1
PI decrease damage by 15%

Nothing wrong with doing this to avoid being bleed out. Bleeding someone out is trolling and a loser move. Who wants to waste their pvp time sitting in downed state for ages. It is a joke.

If you bleed people out regularly then you are a try hard troll.

Cynz.9437:

Moises.2196:

witcher.3197:

It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.

Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.

So core build should be nerfed because of your personal preferences? What an amazing argument. My personal preference is that revs get deleted from the game because i said so – sounds ridiculous, doesn’kitten

I still see not a single good argument WHY thief should be nerfed given current state of classes. Other classes are so stupidly overtuned (at least elite specs) and you demand that core build and DD gets nerfed massively because it prevents you from mindless spam that plagued game since HoT launch?

As said before, there is plenty of counterplay including blocks, blinds, stab, invuls, dodges, counter-cc, instants, reflects, projectile hate, stow weapon etc. Even if you play class that doesn’t have much access to it, you have other tools like lot of heals or counter pressure. Also, thing is – it is just a source of damage, should we ask for revs damage to be removed from sword? DH traps do no damage? This is literary what you are asking for. You will get hit by something, it will do damage to your character, deal with it. It is not like IP does actually insane damage (ca. 3k on good day on squishy) compared to other classes. How is it any different than warrior using near instant arcing slice that does 7k+ damage with huge aoe range or scrappers having damage multiplies similar to backstab on every spell?

I see necros complain about thief however 1. there should be some kind of way to deal with necros otherwise they would rampage like in s2 (do you know how it is for scrappers to deal with necros right now? yeahhhh hopeless) 2. have you ever played thief vs half decent necro as a thief? You will get instagibbed by their 10000 of procs and AoE if you mess up once, it is not like thief has easy ride vs any class right now. Even attacking necros already gives you condis w/o necro actually doing anything and you complain about thief successfully landing his interrupt….

Thief is about only class in this game that is still mainly about active gameplay (you actually have to time and press your buttons instead of relying on 109238018230 passives and instants), still heavily depends on team, can’t hold point to save their lives nor fight any class 1v1 on point and you ask for nerfs? If you want damage nerf for thieves, sure, BUT only for elite spec, revert of all backstab nerfs and only if other classes get heavily nerfed as well (a lot would need to change) which will not happen given how Anet balanced things in the past.

As far as revs go, you guys have plenty of tools to deal with thief (blocks, evades, blinds, stab, CC), good revs still murder everything on their way. If they can do it vs other good players, why can’t you? You have to rely on team to do well? Well, newsflash – it has been like this for roamers for years now, welcome to the club. Claiming that thief doesn’t rely as much on team is just plain lie. Frankly, due to their dependency on stealth, they rely more on someone sitting in point than any other class.

Blocks = necro has none
Instant cast skills = necro has none
Stability = basically none
Blinds = will never land it on a thief
Invulns = none
Projectile hate = 1 utility which is bad
Stow weapon = If I do this I will just die to 1 spam anyway

So what does a necro do vs PI? Thief and mesmer have always killed necros. But it is particularly bad currently.

Mesmer/thief carry hardest. That is the best duo queue too. They are mobile classes and are the best classes currently too. They snowball the map so hard too.

1, Thief
2, Mesmer
3, Warrior
4, Engineer
5, ranger
6, Guardian
7/8/9, Rev, ele and necro – too limited or slow.

Mesmer/thief/warrior can do so much to impact a game. They are also, imo, the current 3 overpowered classes.