Except I would never have been to the event in the first place if I stuck to just one fort so whether the others succeeded or not is irrelevant.
When did I stay I stuck to one fort? I said I stick around to finish events, unlike you. I do so, so that I don’t feel like I’m leeching and can actually help ensure the events complete. Because the few times I did try the run around and leech tactic, I was noticing stuff was failing. Caravans weren’t making it, forts were being lost.. mainly due to people just running around and trying to tag all the things!
The NPC was always fine when I left.
And after? Oh, you wouldn’t know. :P
The slingers are the ones that you want to kill right away as they do a lot of damage just look at what they do to walls and players with their attacks. A group is far more likely to succeed if they kill them than if they don’t. The majority of the time that I went to kill them, it was just me.
Thanks but I already realise this. I kill stuff outside, stay around to help finish the event and move in to help inside if mobs are assailing the NPC. Again, I stay around and help all around the fort, then move where I please.
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If you really want to don those nerd glasses, then you’ll also consider the opportunity cost and realize you’re basically losing money just by being in the labyrinth.
I dunno about that. I’m getting a fair few rares, champ bags and t6 mats in there, not to mention it rewards a decent amount of crests. The crests is literally the only reason I keep on doing the maze, as you can get a good amount in a short time.
You’re spending the same amount of time doing events to support the map towards the same goal of reach The Breach event.
Except I actually stay around to make sure they succeed before moving on to another. A very large difference.
I will also point out that I always at least killed a wave of the husk slingers (normally 3) before I left.
Oh wow.. and that totally helped with all the mobs pwning the NPC in the middle after you left.
Yes and no. Ignoring travel time, the time spent helping out would be no different than remaining at one location. There was usually a supply bull inbetweeb forts so the time not doing anything was minimal. It’s also the only way to quickly gain crests.
Yes, if everyone did this then it could be an issue depending on the rotations they did. However, that scenario would likely never occur.
Sorry but that’s the very definition of leeching. You aren’t staying around to ensure success of the event and instead relying on others to get it done. So when you do that, you leave others on their own to try to defend forts or make sure caravans reach their destination. Just happened to me and a fort defense failed with 30s left because I couldn’t rez the NPC with 15 mobs on me.
Either way, the maze is actually making Silverwastes worse than it was last patch.
Hear, hear! Participating in the maze does gain you some crests as well, but I don’t think I can stomach it after I got my achievement as the one shots and waypointing starting making me quite irritated. (I never liked Pac-Man either :P)
I realise they need to balance the maze’s open times somehow so that people just don’t go there, but having it only open after the breach which then makes people who want to get on with the actual events there wait around for a while, isn’t the right answer either.
With the RNG that’s going on getting the right mordrem bits for the gloves collection, it’s frustrating to have it take even longer to get to breaches.
I don’t think there was enough to this patch for it to stand on it’s own.
The instances were short and few and didn’t do a whole lot to advance the story. And we have gotten just an infuriating pac-man cave added that’s only open for a few minutes after long stretches of being closed.
Sadly, this patch seems to dissolve down to: here, go back and spend MANY more hours grinding in a zone that you already spent many hours in in the past two weeks. And oh, you’ll have to keep running the same events you played last patch every 5 minutes as well.
I don’t like being harsh, but this patch has been an extreme disappointment. (Somewhat off topic, but seriously, when are we getting an expansion’s worth of content? Where is a big new landmass with many zones and them not just being event-only zones? Where’s a new dungeon cluster? Where are more world bosses? New pvp mode? New WvW stuff. This game desperately needs to build on its core. These LS episodes are the equivalent of the epic storyline in other MMOs. Just having an epic story doesn’t cut it. A game needs more meat on its bones, content that offers good repeatability that will keep people busy for months… not just a couple of hours every two weeks.. with long breaks between those spurts of releases as well.)
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I’ve gotten the wrong thing 3 times in a row now. It’s… deflating… It takes quite some time to get to the breach.. then I don’t even get what I need.
“I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”
That’s right ANet, no one enjoys that.
Yet you think it’s fine to make us spend hours doing the same events, over and over, every 5 minutes?
I was seriously bored of the Silverwastes last week. Literally all you do is defend, turn in rubble, help a caravan.. then do that ad nauseum. Others may find that fun. Personally for me, it’s not anymore.
I really appreciated how their were multiple routes towards getting the shoulders last episode. Other people found it better to do the zone and work towards the crests. For me, I found it better to do the story 3 times.
It feels like you’ve found a way to keep people in this zone when they don’t really want to be. What happened to play how you want, hmmm?
If anything, PLEASE halve the amount of crests needed. 1000 × 2 is very over the top.
“players will need to coordinate multiple forces on the map,”
I always get filled with dread when I read stuff like that, due to many experiences regarding how well compete strangers DON’T coordinate with each other.
In MMOs I’ve always gone and played the hardest content and earned my shinies directly. My characters were usually blinged out with best in slot everything. What I had reflected my skill, not my willingness to farm
In other MMO’s that is exactly what you did is farm. You farmed the same stupid PvE content to get a better glove. then you went on to a different hero mode or hard mode and farmed your boots. These were behind another RNG wall too, albeit with less possible drops.
I hate grinding out the same content for gear. GW2 is a breath of fresh air in that respect, in that I can play the content I want and still get BIS items.
Thanks for cutting my quote short and misrepresenting it. You left out the bit about “pressing 11111111”. I was making a distinction between doing something mindless and boring (in my opinion) and something that took actual skill. (edit: since SmoothPenguin blatantly misrepresent many people on here and says they want things given to them without putting in any effort.) Nowhere did I say “farming” in itself was bad. (Farming is a subjective term in any case. ) Nowhere did I say I didn’t want to repeat anything, did I?
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The problem here is that there are Entitled players who want easy Gold and easy luxury items with no effort.
I’m so, so, so, so, soooooooooo sick of you continuing to repeat this lie. So many people have come in and said that they’re willing to put in the work for a precursor, through something like a scavenger hunt… a process that actually feels legendary. They want a way to earn it a directly, not pay exorbitant amounts to other people who got lucky with RNG, nor attempt to get lucky with RNG themselves.
I can earn the money for these precursors. I have done so. I’ve the money to buy a few now. But I refuse to because I find the process and prices ridiculous. I don’t want anything handed to me. I want to put in the work and have an enjoyable experience. I don’t find grinding money for a month or two, then paying someone else to be at all enjoyable. In MMOs I’ve always gone and played the hardest content and earned my shinies directly. My characters were usually blinged out with best in slot everything. What I had reflected my skill, not my willingness to farm by pressing 111111111 or willingness to open my real life wallet and convert gems to gold.
But no, you seem to stick your fingers in your ears and blatantly ignore the many people that say this and instead resort to continually insulting people who have a problem with the system as it currently exists, attributing an attitude to them that they never expressed. Seriously, just stop it already.
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Been wanting the fractal sword and would quite like to have the axe, mace, shortbow and underwater weapons.. just to have them.. but what I REEEEEAAAALLY want is that sword. Instead I’ve gotten 3 focus, 2 dagger (maybe 3.. can’t remember), 2 pistol, 2 staff, 1 greatsword, 1 shield. In the meantime, I’ve watched another person get 3 swords.
It is so, so, SO demotivating to see a fractal weapon pop up as your reward and see that it’s a repeat.. or see someone else get the weapon you want and it be a repeat for them. (It’s also super demotivating to get absolutely zilch.. like 3 greens on the last fractal and nothing from the daily on level 50.) It absolutely bewilders me how the devs couldn’t see how bad this can make a person feel.
I keep running 40/50 nearly daily… keep hoping.. and honestly I’m not sure why. Fractal rewards are just incredibly messed up and totally not proportionate to the amount of skill and effort put in at high levels.
Not only you need to protect npc’s, but you also can’t die yourself. Getting downed seems to be okay, though.
I died on a bad pull (accidentally pulled two groups) and still retained and got the achievement.
Frankly, it baffles me that players subject themselves to mindless farming over engaging content, just over extra loot.
Perhaps they don’t find SW to be engaging content? It was cool and neat at first (calling air support never got old), but after a little while I realised it’s literally the same thing over and over and over. Claim keep, defend, turn in rubble, defend, maybe turn in rubble, defend… etc, etc. Personally, it got a bit boring for me. Nothing wrong with that, different tastes and all. Which would explain precisely why some people like farming and others enjoy running the events in SW. What’s engaging to you may not be for someone else. People are different. It’s really not that hard to understand.
Wait.. you complain about toxicity yet you make this thread and write it in such a way that it continues toxicity? Seriously? Read your post again and ask yourself if you really feel the language you used is actually going to help calm any one down or bring people together in a positive manner.
It’s to be expected when the vast majority of rewards are based on gold. Can’t really blame players when the game is set up in such a manner.
Exactly. ANet along with John Smith have created a system which has turned the game into many people looking to turn whatever they can into a profitable farm as they’ve placed so much emphasis on obtaining vast amounts of gold in order to get shiny things (before the typical people come in with the ‘no one needs anything’ and ‘entitled’ strawmen, just don’t. People obtain rewards in games.. it’s a reason for playing and ANet has set up a system that strongly encourages such farming behaviour if a person wishes to obtain a shiny item. I’m talking grinding gold vs. playing challenging content to earn the shiny directly.)
Simply halve the crests given out by chests. That would force farmers to participate in events because otherwise you will run out of keys.
And, yes, thinning out the chest locations around amber would be reasonable, too.
I joined a chest farming map just to see what it’s like.. and the farmers WERE participating in the events. The keeps were defended and the rubble event often wasn’t happening at Amber because the keep was so well defended. Even one time a full clear of the bosses in the Breach happened.
In any case, the farmers do need to participate in the events if they want to get shovels.
Chris,
I want to ask you something.Will Defiance be redesigned?Is there any plan for it at all?Because right now it is removing the need of any CC in the fights.If raids come will interrupts,stuns,fear become an actual mechanic?Will they be more useful from now?
All I can say on this is we have been talking about it internally and trying to come up with different solutions that make CC valuable without allowing players to “stun lock” creatures (which would be a very real problem if we did not have Defiance). I can’t say any more on that at this time, so here’s a better question for you:
If we removed Defiance, how would you propose a replacement that makes CC (interrupts, stuns, fears etc) valuable without creating a situation that allows players to CC a creature to death.
CC immunity periods, diminishing returns.
This is something I wish GW2 had.. for monsters and players (as getting CCed to death in pvp has never, ever, been fun.) In Lotro, once you used a stun on a mob or player, after the stun wore off, they got a buff called stun immunity for a certain amount of time (10 seconds for mobs in pve, though bosses in raids weren’t CCable later in the game, in order to make encounters harder, BUT, Lotro is a holy trinity game.) In pvp there were diminishing returns, meaning each CC used on a player would have it’s duration be less and less.
I wasn’t getting red over and over and over and over again.. so I started hanging out around the red one… and miraculously they started teleporting to red more often. Dunno if that was coincidence, but maybe it’s worth a try.
I’d prefer RNG achievements such as this not be made again to be honest. This one was frustratingly long.
Whilst they likely do that on purpose to push people towards the gem store.. I really would love the wallet to be utilised much more.
This meta is often bugged. If you see Dredge inside Fridgardr Lodge and there is no event active (either “Drive the dredge out of Fridgardr Lodge” or “Halt dredge expansion by defending Fridgardr Lodge”) the meta is bugged.
Thanks for that tip. Was able to ascertain I was on a bugged server with this.
After nearly 2 years this is sad and ridiculous.
More than 2 years now….. sigh
This was an incredibly poorly thought out item. I’m not sure how ANet couldn’t see the problems this balm would create. I imagine the problems will be exacerbated once the labyrinth goes away. We’ll just have to see.
But all around, this balm was a bad idea.
Perhaps it would help explain my point of view more if I explained that I care more about how someone came to possess an item rather than what skin the item has (as long as its still unique), I want to know the story that item tells and I judge you and your character based on what I can see. That said I would expect the best/most complex skins to be behind harder to get methods otherwise why bother I don’t play MMO’s as some dressup game.
I get this and I hold the same point of view as you. But you’re complaining about the wrong items imo. I find nothing exclusive about an item only available for one festival (and I do believe in GW1, previous years’ rewards were available during festivals.) The Mask of Night literally meant nothing imo. No one is impressed that you joined the game a year earlier than them. I find nothing exclusive about buying thousands of candy corn. Really, there’s a lack of actual good exclusive stuff in GW2… fractal skins (sorta.. ruined by horrid rng), Liadri title/mini and HoM skins come to mind. If they started giving those things away, I’d be right there complaining with you. But not these halloween items, sorry, especially when they were very poorly handled last year.
So you bought a lot of candy corn, what’s exclusive about that? Seriously. John Smith said they messed up last year with the drops and amount required for rewards and now it’s being corrected. Deal with it.
If these items had taken actual skill to get, you might have an argument. But they didn’t so sadly you don’t.
People who have left or have gone on extended absences and are telling you why they did so, are precisely the people you should be listening to if you wish to learn how to retain customers.
TP won’t even load at all for me.. again. It was this way this past Tuesday night after the update as well. Just a constant loading screen.
Does the TP use a separate connection from the game? I have to use WTFast to play GW2 (for months now,), so the game is perfectly playable but so often the TP is incredibly laggy.
The TP is also refusing to load for me. It’s been incredibly slow the past few days.. now this.
Yes, yes.
We get it.
You feel entitled to a precursor because you’ve racked up time and effort and gambled all of it away.
I’ve been around the block too. I have nothing to show for it either.
yet, I’m not complaining about it.Mystic forging is a gamble, and not everyone will see results.
It’s kind of a ‘tough kitten’ thing here.
O_o
Seriously what is with you people who jump to the worst conclusions? The OP wants a concrete method to WORK TOWARDS a precursor, not just get given one. The OP wants the promised precursor crafting. Frankly, it’s an incredibly reasonable request. It’s not being entitled.
Level 3 in Frankfurt again .. very much the same like 2013 and 2012 at the same time of the year.
Yep, it’s always the Level 3 in Frankfurt for me. It’s been this way for months. I’ve had to purchase WTFast subscriptions in order to play GW2. It’s simply impossible without it.
Though annoyingly, it seems like WTFast doesn’t help with the trading post? I don’t know. It’s been incredibly slow, sometimes never even loading.. just that loading circle continually until it times out.
I see a sly moderator has ninja edited out my disclaimer…how sneaky indeed.
Well this bit is simply unneeded:
“…and also to spite all the whiteknights who are hell bent on defending the update until their last breath – come and defend DIS, kittens.”
I actually like the new leveling system, but because I do so, you automatically label me as a white knight… even though my posting history here and at reddit shows the exact opposite.
Stick to the subject and facts and leave out stupid attacks like this if you want to have an actual constructive thread that could affect some change.
APs can be a tough thing for those of us who like completionism. I say, do what makes you happy and try not to worry about anyone else. I know that’s easier said and done. For a long while I tried to do all dailies, but once WvW and sPvP ones got added in, I stopped. And the past few months I’ve missed a fair few dailies altogether. Sometimes I think of those I missed or how much points the WvW/sPvP ones add up to each month.. but.. one can really burn themselves out. I’d rather take breaks than end up really hating the game altogether.
In the end, APs honestly don’t mean a darn thing. Seriously.. they mean nothing aside from time sank into the game. So just try to do what you want and don’t worry about anyone else.
Re point 1, the old way of unlocking weapons was grindy and boring to me and I greatly prefer this new way. For slot 4 and 5, it felt like it could take a long time to get those unlocked and with certain weapons, it certainly was slow.
Was it eight levels of slow? I still think it’s insane having to wait until level 10 just to get my fifth weapon ability. Once you got past level three or four (I don’t know the exact point, maybe it was a little closer to ten), then every single kill would unlock the next weapon skill. It was weighted in such a way so that if you picked up a new weapon later in the game, it would unlock much quicker for you.
As Colin has mentioned elsewhere, the early levels have been significantly sped up. I got a character to level 10 in 40 minutes.
People keep doing this: mentioning the number of level it takes to unlock ‘x’, all the while assuming that level 1 to level-x takes the exact time now as it did before the September feature patch. That is simply wrong and paints an incorrect picture. It’s furthering misconceptions about the new leveling system and causing unnecessary angst.
I understand grabbing all weapons for your profession at level 1 and unlocking them all would feel like it’s taking a long time, but really, there’s no reason to do that. If you have one or two preferred weapons, yeah, stick to those, but you really don’t need every single one for your class unlocked ASAP.
YOU may not feel the need to unlock the weapon skills asap and that is your prerogative. What you should remember is other people have different play styles and desires from yourself. Getting all weapon skills unlocked early on has always been my first primary goal on a new character, so I can get the feel of them and have any of them ready to go if I may need them in a certain situation. If we want to go down the road of what any one of us need.. well.. one could go so far as to say none of us need to be playing video games. So it’s best not to go down that road and assume what other people need or want to do.
From my experience playing a new character:
1. Unlocking skills all at once per weapon was more confusing for me, and more boring. Previously fights didnt feel like grind because I was unlocking skills along the way, and I had more time with one skill to feel what it did. Now I get a bunch at once and am slowed down by having to read every tool tip over and over and I don’t remember what each skill does as well.
2. Not gaining skill points each level… even with the big message saying i’m being rewarded and that i’ve “unlocked” things (many things arent locked to begin with) I dont feel each level is giving me progress toward new abilities.
3. The level up menu gives vague, incomplete information and if I want it off the screen quickly there’s no way for me to figure out later what it was telling me. It takes up the whole screen so if you impulse click on it in combat there’s no time to hover your mouse or click the things it wants you to. In my opinion a true tutorial in controlled instances would be better than these obtrusive, only half-informative, and easily missed pop ups.
4. Some world-building dialogue/heart quest options have been removed (the inquest no longer try to recruit you, no golem chess, you can’t feed bear cubs or play as a sylvan hound). What drew me to gw2 was its world, characters, visuals. These charming details help it stand out from the “kill 45 crawfish to proceed” competitors. Their absence is missed.
5. I am seriously not looking forward to buying/unlocking all of my traits.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/firstTHANK YOU FOR LISTENING!!
Thanks for your feedback Eye.
Chris
Re point 1, the old way of unlocking weapons was grindy and boring to me and I greatly prefer this new way. For slot 4 and 5, it felt like it could take a long time to get those unlocked and with certain weapons, it certainly was slow. Unlocking all attunements/weapons on elementalist was horribly grindy and not fun, especially water and earth. And for other professions, if I wanted to unlock all weapon skills just to see what they were, I was forced to suffer through weapons I didn’t particularly find at all fun.
Weapons skills unlocking upon level is one of the better changes in my opinion and I wanted to offer this counter feedback.
Fwiw, I’ve not been able to play GW2 (or GW1 for that matter) for months now without using something called WTFast. There always seems to be some problem with a Level3 data center in Frankfurt. It’s there where the ping goes up to 700-900 at least.
I hated that stretch that female humans did, so not seeing it anymore will be great for me. :P
It’s really bizarre for me to not be on the side of hating this as I’ve been pretty unhappy with ANet for a while now (and I’m very unhappy about the new money grind collections, especially regarding the items I’ve already earned and sold weeks or months ago.) But I’m actually fine with the leveling changes for the most part. So yeah, I’ll alt.
Ah, I hadn’t realized there were hidden collections.
Mystery solved. Thanks!
They were just introduced today.
Hmmm. My toon was level 8 and so it appears I was grandfathered in to see the nodes. I did get the full set of gathering tools upon hitting level 9. The husband created a new toon tonight and he does not see any nodes currently.
What I told you was based on a new toon.
I did get the dodge story/event thing showing up but it is not clear (at least for me) what I am supposed to do with it. I would have expected a bit more clarity on where to go with that but perhaps I have knocked it out of whack having the level I do for my character. But yes I did note you can still dodge.
You dodge into the middle of the circle to get the chest. You then dodge out.
It felt more difficult to me primarily because I had had the skills available to me and then suddenly did not. I think to test this out thoroughly I am going to have to create a whole new one from scratch. I am not enamored with it but I think veteran players may get a bit more irritated to not have things available that were previously available to them. New players will not know the difference though.
I did feel a bit irritated to not have all the F skills, but on guardian, it’s not nearly as bad as it would be for a ranger or ele I’d think.
No skill challenges starting off requires backtracking across a map. I really cannot see that being appealing to people but I may be wrong.
Yeah, that is a dumb and pointless change.
Same. I’m wondering how to make this collection show up.
So did they hide gathering nodes until a certain level?
If you know Queensdale, there’s some mushrooms in the bandit caves and once you get to the first centaur/skritt area, there’s wood and ore there.
Based on the number of players that do not understand dodging, I’m not too upset they included something based on that in the game. I am a little confused why they would remove chances to practice it though in the beginner areas.
You can dodge from the start of character creation. There’s no disabling of this ever and there’s even a new little area for people to practice dodging.
Removing conditions would also negate the ability for someone to get condition remove in that area of the map.
The first condition I encountered was from a skritt around level 7ish.
Removing bundles goes back to the whole catering to the lowest common denominator.
Agreed.
The whole beginning area wasn’t that hard of a run. The biggest complaint could be the level flow which was worse on some starting maps than others. I’m just not sure what ANet is attempting to accomplish here.
I don’t feel it’s gotten any easier or harder really. It’s just more streamlined, more clear explanations and some actual useful rewards upon leveling. So it’s just different, not easier in my humble opinion.
Even if you could reach level 10 in an hour (highly improbable), that means it would still take 80 minutes per key.
I’m not trying to speedlevel, but I think 1-10 in an hour will be quite possible, maybe even less if one supplements hearts from another zone.
And unless they’ve changed chests profoundly, ain’t nobody gonna spend 80 minutes just to get one key. (and unless you level with crafting or scrolls, I’m sure 80 minutes is going to be on the low side of the time needed).
Well I need 3 more scraps for a complete ticket and no way in heck I’m using real money on gambling, so I shall certainly be doing this a bit more. :P
So they removed hard-hitting, condition-applying enemies in low level zones… while also removing the ability to dodge and heal early on. Take more things away and dumb the game down more, please!
I got downed by a veteran boar (low level guards always have felt squishy :P) and I also had a skritt apply a cripple to me at level 8 or so. Dodging has not been disabled, plus there’s a mini tutorial on it and I most certainly had a heal at lvl 2.
I like it.
The one thing this game really lacked while leveling was a feeling of progression. I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve leveled without even noticing, or went to spend a trait point (in the original system) and found I had three to spend, because I hadn’t noticed. The drops mostly couldn’t be used. I was level 20 wearing some level 1 stuff still. It wasn’t the best way to introduce people to the game.
Now, tutorials pop up when you level. Rewards come when you level. Hell in the old system, you didn’t even learn your stats went up unless you looked for it. Otherwise it was just a level.
And due to the increased speed of the 1-15, I’d say this is a fair trade off.
Pigs must be flying.. as I actually agree with Vayne! :o
I’ve found the 1-10 experience nice enough so far and I love the level up notices and extra rewards. I actually prefer this method of unlocking weapon skills. The arrows pointing you to nearby events and whatnot is cool as well. The new system isn’t nearly as bad or dumbed down as people are making it out to be imo.
I don’t like the story gating though. And I’ve a feeling I won’t like waiting until 40 for an elite. And the gutting of the first heart in Queensdale was totally unneeded.
Please note there is also a part of the patchnotes that says leveling from 1-15 is now faster. Id be interested to see how fast this is. Sure, keyfarming might be slower…but will it still be quick enough to be viable?
1-10 is definitely faster than before. I dunno if it will be fast enough to make key running a thing again. Maybe someone will come out with a streamlined method, dunno. But it’s something I might do now and again.
Aside from the level gating on the story, I’ve found the 1-10 process fine. It was different and slightly annoying to have no F skills immediately, but it’s not making that much of a difference. This sort of spacing out on acquiring skills might have kept my boyfriend in the game longer back at launch. Everything unlocking so quickly so that by 30 you were fairly set, was something he found boring as there was not much to look forward to in the later levels.
The new rewards upon level up are great. It’s making me look forward to levels a bit more. I got excited when one level up offered me a dye. :P And it’s helpful to be getting gear that my character can immediately use.
Downstate until 5 is still meh. And the way they utterly gutted that first heart in Queensdale is incredibly lame.
I’ve never seen Queensdale so dead before. It’s weird.
I submitted a bug report. Would be pretty unfair if that’s intended just because we went and infused it for fractals. -_-
Newsflash: That’s actually what they did – for real.
http://youtu.be/nba4yjIp8fM?t=20m12s
:o
That is just plain sad.
I reeeeeeeeeeaaaaally hope existing characters won’t have this changed on them as this would be downright annoying on level 30ish characters.