Guild Wars 2

Assume you get hit for 10k criticals on 1350 toughness.
With 1500 to 1900 the damage’s gonna be from 9k to 5k.
I don’t want to imagine the amount of damages on a fullberserk with roughly 900 toughness.
The thoughness won’t never save you, however.
These damages are yet not low. I well remember that those kind of damages were from Thieves’ Backstabs and Heartseekers wich have been nerfed badly during the first year.
Now I can understand the D/D Thief is squishy and lives just by those big hits.
But from a tanky, extremely mobile class, with excellent sustain and no need to go around with Toughness or Vitality to survive…

Take your own conclusions and for Kitten Sake, take away your own Ego from this discussion. You must stop identificating yourself with the character you play, it’s not an attack to your person.

PS: I definetly LOVE how people tend to consider as Death Shroud would always be full in every situation. But Yay it’s always L2P issue when it suits you.

@Mickk:
Thank you for showing the situation under another perspective, but if I run celestial I’ve my own reason.
The problem IS and STAYS that the Warrior deals too much damage. No matter how many Toughness or Vitality you will have. This is a significant fail in the design of classes.

Mystogan.4157:

Luke.4562:

For Hybrid builds i’m skeptic enough about the Scepter… its damage output is really terrible…

try this one non scepter hybrid: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNAnYGjc00YbnNs3moWQks4NIjEI2SnA-TVSFABAcCAe4QAUwDAoPlgTq+DO7PUlyP80HAxRAgUAXsMC-w

It’s not that bad, but I’m sticking with Foot In The Grave and Path of Corruption in PVP.
I’m gonna give it a try, but can’t say without ascended gear how it can go.

Does anyone have something to share about Hybrid builds?

Im trying something like..

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQRBIhdG1IHNl32YjtN83mYXogKAiODag5l6zYLyCA-TJRJwAU2fAwJBg7TA4XZAA

I’d say that FITG isn’t that nice without massive Boon Duration stats… There’s still a window for getting interrupted during a ShroudStomp.

Harper.4173:

Luke.4562:

@oZii:

I don’t want to expand the argument analyzing every single class because it would add more problems to deal with, possibly entering in an unfinished loop of useless discussions, or become food for trolls and unscrupolous egocentric people.

So instead I’ll just analyze the class i dislike the most and blatantly attack it. Because I can.

Right OP?

Right, because anyway, even if I bring all the proofs and waste 4 hours on making an explanatory and decent post, it can be turned into a trollfest or a flamefest, so i’m not gonna waste my time doing a “spelling lesson to deaf people”.

I’m just going to post the evidence and see how people gonna take it.

Hohoh this dude made the highest score!

10k Killshot

Ah well, or you can keep the count of seconds for healing and Ds while in DS or Plague Form as I do >.<

For Hybrid builds i’m skeptic enough about the Scepter… its damage output is really terrible…

Clear.8512:

Are you burning your dodges on regular hits? I see a lot of Kill shot damage and with the charge up it is more forgiving to the defend to prepare a reflect or a dodge roll.

More than numbers would be needed to really make an educated guess on what needs to be fixed. If three warriors wanted you dead, I hope the other 4 members of your party are assaulting the other points and your death was not in vain.

When regular blows too hit you like a truck I don’t think that dodging some charged attack would mind the difference, in the long run sooner or later you’ll end up your dodgerolls; I see this coming from both Warriors and Thieves, a pityless spam of heavy attacks which in the end can’t be dodged nor amortized with toughness.
This is making Toughness useless, and bringing no high Toughness even more disgraceful.
That’s a big flaw in the game.

Even the “charge up” animation isn’t of any help during a teamfight.

Liewec.2896:

direct damage can be mitigated through armour toughness and protection if the sigil was going to hit you for 2k you can mitigate it way down.
if burning is going to deal 2k damage, it is going to deal 2k damage.

when was the last time you saw air/fire runes in your death breakdown list? (with the exception of lich cheese) probably never because the list is too dam crammed with conditions.

when we’re taking condition damage that is double/triple our health, 1-2k direct damage is unnoticeable.
that is the difference between power sigils and condi filth.

+1
I agree direct damage can be mitigated through armor and toughness, while conditions can’t be dispelled.

Liewec.2896:

lucky! i’d find it refreshing to get killed by something other than condi filth for a change…

stack all the toughness, protection and damage mitigation you want, condition damage cannot be mitigated…

When I agree that some condi burst is really ridicle, getting over 30 pings means you had almost 30 seconds to dispel or do something. Remember also that in “Top Skill” viewmode you get the sum of all the conditions, so they could be stacked by more people.
When you get bishotted you go straight in downed mode..
So thank for the reminder and bring some condi removal with you

^ /mirrorclimb mode activated.

Even if I would post the whole screenshot some people would find something to debate on.
You can think what your ego wants, but I don’t need such things.
These damages are from the actual game build, they aren’t outdated and are totally out of control.

Recently(the few time I’m online) I’ve been trying in PVP some hybrid build too, and despite it has not the best condition or direct damage output, it still deals fair amount of damages retaining anyway some kind of sustain.

Something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQRArY3Njc0UejtN83mIYokaFiWAcuUvFPRTA-T5QJgAU7PAcSA+LDAA

Runes of Strenght help a lot.

Maybe Hybrid can become the new way to go.

@oZii:
The note on the Toughness was to anticipate people asking for it. It’s not related to a matter of ignorance from me.
It’s a matter of skill balance: when a class can deal so much direct damage to take away roughly 1/4, 1/3 or 1/2 of the total health of a target with high quantities of armor, it’s a clear signal that there’s something wrong.
There is no stat which can possibly help this.

I don’t want to expand the argument analyzing every single class because it would add more problems to deal with, possibly entering in an unfinished loop of useless discussions, or become food for trolls and unscrupolous egocentric people.

The problem is crystalline and simple as it seems.

This is still the situation after nearly 2 years of professional refining. (Talking about ANET work)

I’m enough of being a target dummy for facerollers.

Note, I’m running with 1500-1900 toughness, I’ve experience and I don’t have nor permavigor nor infinite dodges.

and more 1111 bleeding stacking boring class..
they stack way to much bleeding in the short time because of the massive spamming #1 shortbow, all they do is spamming all day long 1111111111111111 and it works also!
another annoying class.
This games gets more and more boring and lame passive classes and i cant see any fun in that.

ALARM: Warrior player complaining about other classes!ALARM

The fact that warrior is mindlessly OP, it has the favor of ANET and it usually counters Necromancer is another argument.
Expanding the argument in that direction adds only more problems to the problems yet we have.

Simply put long CC stacking is reterded.
The spamming factor neutralizes stunbreakers and whoever expert player will set it up when the opponent won’t have stability.

Awww really did I waste my time trying to communicate with such a person?
Well, my bad.
I guess ANET will appreciate the feedback from ‘you’.

I don’t have so much time to develope all my points, I’ll try to catch the feel in the following..

There was a time when I was really satisfied while playing GW2, I had the same euphory you are showing now. It lasted 1-2 months.
Then I understood the game had several problems, several flaws in both class design and mechanics.
Then I waited patiently, but the policy of the company showed to not care for these flaws. I’m still waiting.

If you like to play with paid flawed products, it’s good for you. But this doesn’t mean that your point of view has the upper hand over the others.
There are people wich aren’t patient enough, but this doesn’t mean everyone who’s not satisfied with the actual GW2 is a cryer or an immature person.
There are legitimate critics which cannot be ignored just because are abused by most immature people.
Crying out loud your passion with this kind of taunting attitude doesn’t make you better than those people you’re blaming.

There are not just black and white, so it’s wrong assuming one color’s is exactly wrong and the other isn’t. There are more shadings.
Take in consideration that Internet ruins the people attitude, and so often even smart people get caught by the mass attitude.

I aknowledge that there will always will be people unsatisfied by a product for multiple meanings (legitimate or immature), I aknowledge that the work after GW2 is really huge, but what makes the real difference and the real quality is the policy of the developers.

You mentioned this:

Enjoy what you have and participate in the discussions of “making things better” in a constructive manner that Anet can follow and we can stand behind as a gamer community for the betterment of our game!

All I saw was a slow development with a questionable objective, enriched by a hermetic feedback from the staff. Most of the feedback given in the forums had been ignored. This worsened the opinion of a part of the customers.. and of course gave more justifications to the immature customers to vent their stupidity.

I won’t blame you for being captured by the good features this game has, but I’d recommend you to not get blinded at the same time, there are several issues which still after 19-20 months aren’t getting looked at.
And so I hope you’ll aknowledge that not every critic here is unmotivated and comes from an immature customer.

Is your ego-statement satisfied now?

Poor ignorance…
Internet is the world of trolls and ignorants for real.

have all professions and toons to level 80, fully geared and still love this game and have more than enough to keep me busy!

To those that have hurt feelings over not getting what they want when they want it, get a kitten job

…. Really?

I find ridicle both builds.
Stunlocking with so much kittened damage and Fearstacking with so much kittened damage.
They should stop fear from scaling by condition duration.

“So.. Please MTV pimp my ride!”

Extreme mirror climbers ftw.
The rational discussion becomes worthless with some people, it’s like talking different languages. I abandon this discussion.

BurrTheKing.8571:

…Your arguments are fundamentally flawed because you seem to think that you can just pick one part of what makes a class and disreguard anything else…

Check what I’ve written, didn’t I checked all the other bleeds and conditions on the Warrior?
This is free shooting random sentences…

Deliberately declaring my argument is invalid, evasive dialectic, generalization and expanding the argument to dilute it just to hold on your point…

… Ok.

If this is your way of thinking even after I brought in proofs and matter of facts, I’m done discussing with you. Enjoy YOUR reality.

^
If this is “correct” then we should use our utilities just for Stunbreakers, leading out of the meta those builds wich relies on using other utilities as key skills for their builds.
We yet seen that happening with Epidemic which isn’t used in favour of more versatile and protective skills.
So if the circumstance “bring more stunbreakers or be cannon fodder” is true, it requires us to have stronger utilities more indipendent from the build.

That’s why stability (not with 1 second of duration..) should go on some of our utility skills. To fix a serious balance issue and to allow more space for build variety.

+1

EDIT: What the heck do you mean by “denaturalizing?”

Misleading, watering down the meaning of my argument by associating it to something which isn’t directly related to it.

I can make the same comparison as you did:
The fact Necro have more aoe condis doesn’t balance a thing, Arcing Arrow deals a ridicle amount of Aoe damage on a way larger area of effect and can be spammed on a short cooldown; keep in mind the LongBow also is used in berserker builds, with no need of condi damage because of their ridicle damage.

So what do we have? Ridicle single target damage and ridicle Aoe damage.
This justifies the fact that Warrior has still better traits than most classes. Sure.
Where’s the balance you were arguing for?
Don’t even try to come and say Burning isn’t Bleeding, blah blah blah.. Imbalanced damage is still imbalanced damage.

The more, i love how people use the verbalizations “comparing apples to oranges” to apparently giving more emphasis and meaning to their arguments…

BurrTheKing.8571:

Warriors also only has access to 3 damaging conditions: Bleeds, Torment, and Burning. Let’s compare that to what Necro has: Everything. The most dangerous condi skills that Warrior has are also highly telegraphed, Impale and Pin Down. To go further, both of those skills are single target (although sometimes you get a lucky pierce from Pin Down) Necro has the ability to spread their condis all over. You’re comparing apples to oranges here.

Imbalanced traits and too much damage are still the problems here, they have nothing to do with what you listed above.
You’re clearly denaturalizing my point making unappropriate comparisons, this is public information pollution.

Olba.5376:

COOOOOOFFF COOOOFFFFF!!!!!!!!!! And Sword’s bleeds are way better than Scepter’s…

The justification for Deep Cuts lies in Flurry: Flurry applies multiple 2s bleeds. Anything short of 50% would have no effect on this due to how the ticks are timed.

It’s a poor justification, because if we assume that’s made just for Flurry, then we forget it affects all other bleeds: autoattack bleeds are yet long (8seconds untraited), offhand’s too (12 seconds untraited and 15 seconds of cooldown), Pin Down (from 12 seconds and 6300 damages on 25 seconds cooldown to 10000 damages over 18 seconds [and I calcualted without adding any other traits or stats])…
Warrior has a major uptime, duration and damage on bleeds. And even major traits.

Olba.5376:

The shortest bleed on a Necro is 5s, meaning that 20% is the minimum required to get a benefit.

Blood Curse 4 seconds untraited, Barbed Precision 2 seconds.

…

In conclusion, Warrior, over being the facerollest class ever, has the strongest weapons and traits superior to other classes.

Nice work ANET.

I’ve said enough.

All of this makes me remember something..

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deep_Cuts

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hemophilia

COOOOOOFFF COOOOFFFFF!!!!!!!!!! And Sword’s bleeds are way better than Scepter’s…

Halven the salary for the Warrior balance supervisor..

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Just one question after going throuh this topic:
Why are there so many non necro’s trying to explain necro’s how to play the profession?
and telling then necro’s their profession has everything going for it.. yet they don’t play it.?

i’m quite confuzzled about that.

Don’t make yourself get fooled. There are some users multiaccount-posting, you can check it yourself from “their” message hystory and the way “they” talk.
It’s easy enough to detect "em’ ".

The answer is: it’s a matter of EGO, everyone feed it the way they like.

Awesome, depicting Necromancer as a decent class

First of all you don’t get 20k Hps unless you get Vitality on your gear; then you show again Death Shroud as an impressive ability giving more hps, when, effectively it is just strong in 1v1 with full Life Force and scales horribly in large fights, because the damage done will tear it apart in seconds.

Also, 5 bone minions mention from Lichform are the best part, they’re really scary…

The real problem is this game has not an inch of balance, its totally random made and a mindless ZergVZerg doesn’t make the situation better.

@Drarnor Kunoram: Actually you don’t get healed from it just because you’re in DS, elseway.. I wrote it in haste, i can rearrange it:

• Allow Life Transfer to heal for a certain amount (check Transfusion[BloodVI]);

• Allow 50% from all healings under DS.

Allow Transfusion (Blood …) to heal the Necromancer under DS and it will be enough or elseway allow 50% healing reduction under DS.

Foot in the Grave (Soul Reaping XI) is hampered by Near to Death (Soul Reaping VIII) and boon duration stacking, and heavy design issues.

First of all a GrandMaster Trait should define the build, while this is merely an utility that doesn’t define a kitten. It’s just a tool too much expensive to get to be that useful.
Somebody on the other thread stated that stability shouldn’t be too much accessible because it would then become mandatory and damage the build variety.
By the other side we can see what’s happening having FITG high on a talent tree with other competitor traits that are more appealing: the trait is mostly unused and can’t be included in meta builds, nor it shone so much to make some build using it a meta build.
Of course it needs more focus and experience to use it correctly but the problem isn’t the “Skillcap” issue.

The issue is this the wole trait system for the Necromancer has been made with haste, without any aim nor idea of what builds would come out.
It should promote build variety, it should accomodate to the playstyle of players, but the positioning of traits and their effects does the total opposite: forces players in the random builds that came out of this PRIMORDIAL SOUP.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• Blood shroud: Constantly drain your HP, each spell inflicts an additional 5x bleed.
• Horror Shroud: Each attack has a 25% to inflict Fear. Drains 4x faster than Deathshroud.
• Revenant Shroud: Minions damage boosted by 50%

This isn’t bad at all, even if it’s similiar to the Elementalist’s attunements.

So well.. “Well of Immortality/Undeath” ideas.

Why not taking inspiration from GW1, then?

• What about good old “Orders” from GW1? There were multiple ways of “buffing” your team with direct buffs or indirect (Marks or Hexes giving adrenaline, energy, etc. while hitting the marked target, similiar to the actual Signet of Vampirism, just better)..
  This would go nicely on PVE groups, allowing maybe a vampiric indirect healing, bursts, energy support..
  Imagine an Order of Aposthasy allowing your team to focus dispel a single target in PVP…
  I’d see these potential support mechanics working fine both in Blood or Spite tree, allowing for a supportive/Offensive build or a supportive/Healer-kinda build, being a sort of cultist, anti-guardian themed support.
  They can be implemented as single utility or weapon spells or eventually as a Death Shroud spell working differently with different Traits (imagine to have an Order spell which can be cast only in DS) or entering or getting out of DS…

• There were also spells to take care of your undead army, a micro management, healing them or sacrifying to get some effect, or buffing them with Orders spells (remember Order of Undeath boosting the minions’ damage)..
  What would I like to see are Aoe buffs (like Furious Demise [CurseMasterMinor]) working on minions too.
  Maybe these can be implemented with a single 2h weapon that can be dedicated to Minion Masters with a set of skills working like the old GW1 MM, like summoning multiple Bone Horrors to swarm opponent without being too much op, healing them, buffing them with an Order, etc.
  ……..
  For trait ideas i’d like to see something like this: “If a target inside the minion’s area of action is bleeding then nearby minions gain swiftness and X stacks of might.”

• There can be some intriguing spell like Grenth’s Balance which would work nicely as an healing spell with some synergy with Death Shroud and an higher skillcap.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_necromancer_skills

Just a question, what kind of authority do you have?

alamore.1974:

I have yet to see. A valid reason why necros should not have access to stability? ?

• People’s ego and a whole lot of dialectic loops.

• Secret agents working under cover in the forums to engage and hold off the community minorities.

There has been a nice period in which minions worked pretty nicely, when the Minion Master became part of the PVP metagame.
I can assume that Anet left kittened the minion AI because they couldn’t manage to stop the moans for the “petting zoo” meta.

I’ve some doubts about it.. Can you specify about those “ideas”? Are you referring to opinions on existing features wich define the Necromancer or about personal ideas from the wish list?

And by the way is this a “public test” or a simple brainstorming?

PS: Anyway, some people can’t be convinced even when put in front of reality, matter of facts and experience, their ego comes always first. Let them be, no need to become blue in the face for them.

This bug is around since February patch.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Necromancer-Minion-AI-bugged-again/first#post3998634

/professionality, precedences, organization, accolades, best game 2012.

Zefrost.3425:

The results for Foot in the Grave are hilarious. The skill cap has clearly not been met by many players lol. That trait is amazing. I’ve used it for over 2000 hours since release and have never seriously used any other builds without it, other than experimenting or playing around with other builds.

This trait, along with the elementalist’s trait Rock Solid are the highest skill cap stabilities in the game and also have the highest total uptime. They function the same as any long lasting stability but you have to use it skillfully. Most long lasting stability are really just going to waste because you’re not being CC’d for 8 or more seconds straight. All you need is those few precious seconds of stability for it to do it’s job.

Don’t turn this into a skill-nerdpride argument.
The problem with Foot in the Grave (SoulReaping XI) are 2:
1) it isn’t worth 30 old or 6 actual trait points, it’s too much deep into the tree so not every build which need it can benefit it properly; GrandMaster traits should define builds, this trait is out of this logic.
2) Its interaction with Near to Death (SoulReaping VIII) and boon duration is the main problem, as we discussed yet; NtD is the main reason because most of our Death Shroud related traits are being held down and nerfed badly.

• I don’t give a flying kitten about players wanting someting to show skill and that they waste all their life on a game, I want a full functional, funny and smart thought Necromancer.

“Gem Stores 2”, all the rest is forgettable.

Spent 0 Euros and never will spend any money on this over the starting 60 for the naive purchase of this “game”.

Given the fact that the Content Patch did little to nothing overall the traits, this thread imo still keeps being valid, why don’t we discuss about new traits to complete it?

coglin.1867:

Well of power pulses it.

Uncorrect, it allows it just on the cast, not every pulse.

Lich form offers 30s of stability.
Plague form grants 20s of stability.

These aren’t utilities.

Foot in the grave grants 3s of stability when in DS.

30 pts in Soul Reaping to get stability isn’t worth at all.

I see one of two problems here. Either you still have a bit of learning to do of your profession, which happens sometimes when you are new to it, but also means you probably shouldn’t lecture on it, or you are intentionally making false suggestions for the sake of your argument.

Probably your case.

You claim not having stability or limited access to it is out of balance, so are you suggesting thief needs more stability? as necros have more then thief.

Thief has another style of play it’s extremely evasive whith perma evades and stealth which garants him more control and more damage soaking.
This point is… pointless.

Condi Necromancer’s Damage atm doesn’t suck, its whole packet, design and synergy do.

Come on, this attitiude isn’t productive, they aren’t able to solve the real problem or give Necromancers what they need, it’s useless contenting ourselves with these tiny bits of “maybe it can work in this circumstance”.

Unholy Sanctuary requires a build with Vital persistance, almost 1300 Healing Power and the need and capability to stay in Death Shroud for really prolonged time to get a consistent amount of healings..
In PVP there is no rational way and need of doing it. In WvW idem. In PVE maybe, but again it’s worthless when you can get oneshotted in a matter of seconds.

They just have to give Necromancer via Traits a 50% reduced healings under DS from whatever source or a Life Transfer Healing for full every 40 seconds. Enough said.

Nope.

Exactly what I was expecting. Trolling customers again.

+1

Of course, I’m not playing with GW2’s Necromancer anymore, that feels so good

Anyway, an eye for an eye, karma hits the faceroll back, good for you.

coglin.1867:

It very literally completely negates ferocity and any trait that procs on crit.

It’s an incorrect information, weakness doesn’t completely negates procs on crit. You have damage reduced, but you still can crit and apply on hits and crit effects.
(Test it with Death Perception, 100% crit chance, Sigil of Fire, Corrosive poison Cloud and on crit traits.)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weakness
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glancing

Invulnerability, permastuns, permadodges negates totally all my stats.

Us necros not only have the ability to completely negate conditions, but also turn the damageback on the opponent for additional damage. These are facts, not opinions. The ability to literally negate conditions and cries is very strong. To suggest we need to have the ability to fully negate CC as well Is not reasonable.

1) Don’t talk about “us” Necros, you are now attempting to pretend you speak for every one in this community, including myself. It’s offensive.
2) Warrior’s Berserker Stance, sigils, traits and skills removing periodically conditions are “negating” conditions, for Necromancers the time you wasted up all your condi removal and the opponent has a class able to stack conditions quick enough (Warrior, Engineer), it’s done.

19 months and Minions’ AI is still “meh”. They cannot find a permamanent solution.
19 Months and they cannot manage to refine and fix the design of classes.
They put out a game with 8 classes and they can’t afford to stay after it.
It was better, let’s say having 3 classes with more focus.

MercilessLemurs.7459:

They are tanky while performing activities. Life siphon, deaths shroud etc.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

And there is a well for power builds that grants stability and I think breaks stun too.

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

Everyone talking about DS here DS there, but can’t remember the Life Force scales depending on the scale of the fight:

• High Life Force = strong 1v1.

• High Life Force = useless Xv1 or XvX, Necromancer first focus, DS shredded apart in seconds.

• Low Life Force = GG Necromancer, cya after your respawn.

Guess what can Necromancer do with the actual terribad Life Force generation:

• Build just around Life Force generation (Didn’t you see around builds with both Spectral Walk and Spectral Armor?) or..

• … Say: “welcome I’m cannon fodder”.

Haters make considerations as Necromancers go around always with full LF bar, awesome!