Dude, how long are you playing pvp? How many games have you played (ranked, unranked, etc)?
Again, as far as I can see, you are new to pvp and very inexperienced. Suggest you to stop calling for nerfs (not saying that you are right or not) and start read forums and guides.
Yeah mesmer has easier time recapturing keeps solo (though specced thief have similar possibilites). Usually I try to infiltrate after enemy zerg and hide. If enemy didn’t sweep inner – I kill lord after his invulnerability fades like in 2-4 min (before veterans respawn). But it is easy to spot thief/mesmer at inner: just listen sounds and use stealth disraptor trap. It takes like ~30s for 1-2 ppl to verify inner.
He is talking about meta thief. 7k is ok for meta dp build. To do significantly more damage need to be traited & equipped with assasin signet (heh, like CS+ MA + MoD requirements for mesmer).
Though 16k is still too high. Mb you are talking about cloack and dagger + mug + backstab combo?
You operating wrong numbers/ doing wrong math.
With 3 clones +1 IP you raises the coeff from 2 clones + 1 IP:
2.32 to 2.70 without Mental Anguish
2.67 to 3.1 with Mental Anguish
3.01 to 3.51 with Mental Anguish and daze successfully applied
You need to dodge to have 2 clone shatter +1 IP. 1 clone from mirror blade + 1 from dodge. If you precast 1 illusion (like gs4) you show your presence and do not fit in 1s. To do full MB + dodge shatter + MS combo you usually waste more then 1s (1s is stun from CS trait). It is if we are talking about unexpected burst.
Tor have to use a gap closer on long cooldowns (steal is an exception, but that’s also their profession mechanic).
Steal, shadow shot backstab? SS is on 4s CD (if roughly convert ini to cd) .
As I said it is how thief works (in teamfights): jumps in – burst/dps – out – repeat.
Though mesmer can survive few secs more in center of teamfight (due to distortion and blurred frenzy) he is still very glassy. Thief has much more access for those in/outs (mesmer have only blink in meta).
Mind Stab: 1.0 (can be aborted early and still get the full effect)
Vulnerability: 1 + (3 + 5) * 0.005 = 0.04
adds up to 5.41 in ~1 second. Then we also got at least 8 might stacks from MB and CI (all considering that you interrupted your target before landing the above skills so you benefit from the traits. After that your DPS drops a bit and you either spam autoattack (at least 0.5 over 1.5 seconds), go for another interrupt or swap weapons. At this time a thief used steal, backstabbed (hopefully from a flanking position) and triggered mug. Total over 2.5 seconds is roughly 6.
Let’s compare that to D/P thief:
Backstab: 2.4
Mug: 1.7
AA: 0.56 + 2 * 0.85 = 2.26
Exposed Weakness: 0.1
Lead Attack: ~0.05
adds up to roughly 6.51. Here’s the crux with that: It is chained, doesn’t rip nearly as much boons, is more spread out, mug doesn’t crit, except for the AA chain it’s single-target and thieves are running Marauder instead of Zerker. Thus the actual damage output is way lower even against single targets.
Both meta thief and mesmer run maradeur.
I think you did wrong math.
Mirror Blade: 2 * 0.7 = 1.40
Mind Wrack: 3 * 0.775 (2 ill shatter + IP) = 2.32
Mental Anguish: 0.30 (most questionable trait)
Mind Stab: 1.0 (usually either MStab or dodge for 2nd clone but not both – to fit 1s; but okm let it be)
Vulnerability: 6-14 stacks (14 stacks if took domination line) = 0.14*1.5(Domination trait Fragility) = 0.21
Total = (1.40 + 2.32 * 1.3 + 1) * 1.21 = 6.55
I don’t take in consideration might from gs2 or fact that 3 vuln stacks less applied for 1st gs2 hit, etc.
Thief:
Backstab: 2.4
Mug: 1.5
AA: 0.56 + 2 * 0.85 = 2.26
Exposed Weakness: 0.1
Lead Attack: ~0.1 (1st burst usually 0.15)
Total = (2.4+1.5+2.26) * 1.1 * 1.1 = 7.45
“At this time a thief used steal, backstabbed (hopefully from a flanking position) and triggered mug. Total over 2.5 seconds is roughly 6.”
Backstab + mug = (2.4 + 1.5) * 1.1(exp weakness) * 1.1(lead attack) = 5.7 in ~ 0.5s
“After that your DPS drops a bit and you either spam autoattack (at least 0.5 over 1.5 seconds)”
A bit?
Gs in melee range (he would be after burst) is 0.5 in 1.4 s = 0.357 skill coeff per second
Thief AA chain ~ 2.24 in 2s = 1.12 skill coeff per second (plus endurance refill and poison application).
Mesmer gs AA to thief dagger AA ratio is 0.357/1.12 ~ 0.32 Three times less. 43% if 300-600 distance. Mesmer sword’s AA so slow (and less dps then thief dagger) so very often you can’t reliably land most proficient 3rd AA chaint hit
Plus:
1. Thief has better sustained dps – good AAs doing most part of work here (not touching mesm illusions dps part again).
2. Thief has potentially faster burst rate because of CDs.
3. Thief burst has lower numbers, but probably it is compensated(overcompensated in numbrs? din’t check with math) by 2 paragraphs above. It is just what differs mesmer from thief.
guys u forgot a thing: BS goes on back, because in front deals half damage.. mesmer does not have any sort of direction to burst
more important, the stealth of mesmer is insta, with a button pressed, the thief’s one is not insta..
There already was a thread discussing about a thef \mesmer ways to get in stealth. Both class have the same number of non(hard)counterable ways = 2.
Mesmer has decoy and torch 4th (pays utility slot and weapons slot with bounded mediocre(?) phantasm)
Thief has blinding powder and steal traited with hidden thief (pays utility slot and trait/line slot, though other 2 traits can’t compete with hidden thief in most builds)
Both mesmer and thief need to cover other sources of stealth (LoS, blind, stealth, etc).
Thief doing non covered BP+HS combo often is a sitting duck as well as mesmer doing non covered MI.
Dude, I just cited you. And yes, CDs are relevant here. Why I should think opposite?..
Or you think backstab without mug is not a burst? Or what?
1. Thief has better sustained dps – good AAs doing most part of work here.
2. Thief has potentially faster burst rate baecause of CDs.
You should try stealth spamming/opening as a thief; you can do 1 full rotation and then you’re out of initiative if you try it again not to mention mug is of course not even up and this is further assuming the thief is just running around the whole time with nobody focusing him… that happens all the time, “Hey glass thief is out, everyone ignore him and just let him do the same rotation 2-3x!”
It is a matter of thief’s weapons choice + iniative/utility management.
If am playing thief I usually start with stealth prestacking through BP+HS combo. It costs me ~2-3 ini at 1-s before stealth ends. After burst do some aa – have full ini. No need to do even this if traited with hidden thief (I think most/many are). So this is 1st burst. Then BP+HS -> 2nd backstab = costs 9/15 ini. More AA’,s repeat backstab (3rd) with blinding powder, etc.
“thief is just running around the whole time with nobody focusing him.”
Dude, it is how thief (and mesmer to some extent) works – in->burst->out->repeat
But tbh I rarely do so much backstabs because of I don’t need them. Often enemy just allows me spam AA’s, thus I prefer to keep some ini and utilities for emergency cases. And even with traited steal I prefer to stack stealth through BP+HS (if posssible) to keep steal.
Dude, I just cited you. And yes, CDs are relevant here. Why I should think opposite?..
Or you think backstab without mug is not a burst? Or what?
1. Thief has better sustained dps – good AAs doing most part of work here (not touching mesm illusions dps part again).
2. Thief has potentially faster burst rate because of CDs.
3. Thief burst has lower numbers, but probably it is compensated(overcompensated in numbrs? din’t check with math) by 2 paragraphs above. It is just what differs mesmer from thief.
It is not a bug, it is how it works from start of the game. Decoy (and desperate decoy) breaks any channeling actions. Probably for goal not to reveal mesmer if he decoyed while doing something like greastsword AA. Though I don’t see reason why it should interrupt mesmer’s non damaging channels.
Mesmers however can aoe shatter/boon clear and further burst at a higher rate on a single target
Burst at a higher rate then thief? How? MW (main part of mesmer burst) is on 10-12s. Backstab (main part of thief burst) limited by stealth – 3-4s. It is a matter of thief’s weapons choice + iniative/utility management. To add, probably mesmer is more reliant on burst then thief (not touching illusions – squishy, removed on death effect, etc), thief has decent autoattacks to feel gaps.
There already was a thread discussing about a thef \mesmer ways to get in stealth. Both class have the same number of non(hard)counterable ways = 2.
Mesmer has decoy and torch 4th (pays utility slot and weapons slot with bounded mediocre(?) phantasm)
Thief has blinding powder and steal traited with hidden thief (pays utility slot and trait/line slot, though other 2 traits can’t compete with hidden thief in most builds)
Both mesmer and thief need to cover other sources of stealth (LoS, blind, stealth, etc).
Thief doing non covered BP+HS combo often is a sitting duck as well as mesmer doing non covered MI.
Thieves handle many builds pretty well. Mb with some exceptions like celeele, mediguard, condi mesmer. Decent (!) thieves had upper hand against power mesmer before patch, got more equal footing after patch (mantra and MB nerf…). Sometimes ppl call me cheesy fotm mesm reroller ( ). But when I suggest them 1×1 bo5 duel with me playing thief and opponent playing ANY mesmer buld, they reject )) .
Which class you were playing? Happened 3 times in a row in unranked on my mesmer yesterday. All teammates disconnected except me. Not sure about team color though.
Sorry, tested it right now. I think I’ve got what is a problem. Desperate decoy was fixed to proc at 50% and CD was fixed too. So occasionally getting hits while stomping procs desperate decoy more often for me , thus stops any action. Wrongly tied problem to shatter because off habit to blind shatter downed enemy interrupts.
Btw do you like current decoy behavior (regarding it interrupts non damaging actions too)?
Have anyone experienced troubles after patch when stomping and shatter(s) during it cancel stomp?
Seems it occasionaly happens to me or mb I miss something?
You downed mesmer → start stomping → downed mesmser goes 3s long invis → you cancel stomp animation and start spam action button on a spot → start stomp again and finish it after mesmer is out of stealth.
MB opponents was using some type of exploit/bug? I remember a thief perma porting in downed state.
But it newer happens before today’s patch. It is easy to check at any mesmer youtube or stream videos.
Clone block stomp wouln’t exist too.
It was newer happens to me when I played mesmer. And never happened when I fighting enemy mesmer. Believe me, it would be one of the main and well known anti mesmer fight tactic.
Idk about new maps tbh. Mb lower price for traps or try new tactics. I just have no xp with new maps. I think it would be more clear when more ppl test new borderlands.
Supply management is one of the task of wvw.
“mesmer in EB using super speed”
Hmm.. Superspeed is bugged now. It gives you less speed then swiftness in combat (25%).
whut? 10-15s?..
Just take bunch of stealth disruptors and know places, sound and visual effects of stealth skills. Correctly placed traps are almost garanteed death sentence for any hiding class (at inners). But I almost don’t see ppl using them except me (gold league).
For PvP:Team utility and quick burst. Not good at duelling though.
Lolwut.
He’s trolling you, mesmer is the #1 dueling class. And gets weaker the larger the team fight.
I wouldn’t say this imo. Mb at arenas with ‘no cele\bunker’ restriction. In other cases I think top 1 is cele d/d ele. Though mesmer has better chances to kill cele ele if traited with shattered concentration then any other class except cele signet necro, iirr.
Addresing to stealthing in wvw keep issue – use stealth disruptor trap. Before patch I used them often against permastealth thieves at keeps (btw why nobody complaints about them?), now against PU mesmsers too. It is easy and effective. Even at open field I sometimes use trap and kite mesmer to trap. It is not necessarily for finding pu mesmer in inner though. Just sweeps keep, listen sounds (torch), observe visuals, etc. Sometimes ppl just don’t check – in that case I just can recap keep in 3-5 mins solo (thief can do this too).
Rampager feels inferior to sinister for me (though I’m using/playing around with rampager at spvp cause no sinister there) without some might stacking sources. Not sure if Imagine burden could be such source. Mb it is somehow viable at spvp, but at wvw roaming you would have harder time without defensive stats, lack of stealth and ports at the same time imo. I’m playng full sinister with PU now, but still should be very cautious.
Are you talking about wvw (no perplexity runes at pvp)? Roaming/zerg? Why rampager runes?
PU is very useful at wvw imo.
I feel defenseless without decoy and blink at pvp and even more at wvw tbh.
As seasoned thief player it is usually relative easy to predict when enemy will be using steal
Hmm. I have totally opposite opinion. Vs good thief it is pretty hard.
To OP. Many thieves use steal as gap closer. Thus prepare to dodge when thief comes in 1200 distance. If he is an asura spamming aa to hamper your reactive dodge rolling – try mere stealth when thief enters in 1200 distance and start attack 1st (though thief would be prepared to dodge your attacks/burst)
Berserk fake casting is useless imo. Ppl dodge when berserker spawn and start whirling animation, not when mesmer starts cast.
1. No. You still get hit by retaliation, auras, etc when are using blurred frenzy.
2. Yes. You can’t spread sw2 between teammates because of it is nit true distortion.
Instead they chose to use shadowshot and keep me blind while it does 4k to you. Followed by another 4k auto and PS proc.
I used to keep distance at start and dps (using gs though). At distance you can use illusion to cover yourself against shadowshot projectile (usually I just dodge back to spawn DE clone). If thief ss’d to clone and started aa it – you can interrupt and root/stun him. If you are already blinded with thief in melee distance – use aa (or cry of frustration) to clear blind and then interrupt thief’s aa chain. Thieves have a habit to reposition behind enemy back – don’t panic, turn character fast and aa to cleanse blind and burst back. Or just don’t move and your character would turn to thief automatically at attack.
Are you serious?
“The skills which do offer true invulnerability do not let you attack or use skills while they are active unlike distortion” Ele’s obsidian flesh with same cd?
“trait that ignores the revealed debuff.” Wut?..
“Good access to vigor” 5s on crit with 10s CD vs ele’s 6s on crit with 5cd vs permavigor sw/d thief etc?
“A mid-tier health pool.” Kk. Low-tier armor?
“Clones which throw off targeting” Wut?..
“block range attacks even if the enemy” You could add "and dies from 1-2 ranged attacks’.
“confusion (which is defensive and offensive in nature)” only at condi build
“I’d say mesmers have some of the best defense in the game without PU.”
Mb. Otherwise (without stealth, blinds, distortion, ports) they would just die as low tier armor and mid tier health class
I had problems with use of this trait at outnumbered situations, but now I started kind of like it. At pvp it wasn’t big problem, but at wvw when zerg jump on me I used to decoy -> blink away. Now I’m trying to adapt my reflexes with some success to decoy -> distortion (it gives me 2s to think) -> 0-2s later blink to nearest los or behind zerg to prevent reveal. It still more complex then combo I used too, but pluses of reflect overweigh minuses for me.
Afaik even if it does push it still useless as additional cond duration is hard capped by 100%. But it can be useful (mostly at wvw) if enemies are using -condi duration food/ traits/runes. E.g. if I have additional condi duration 110% and enemy has -20% to condi duration – I would apply additional 110-20 = 90% condi duration.
I like after patch mirror. Helpful against ranger and good for reactive reflect kill shot and pin down I’m not very good at it. Switched to mirror recently.
“as i dont share only 1 boon” got it. Just misinterpreted advice (used tw – share).
Probably it works as I can see. Just it gives very minor duration increase. Tested boon part with Bountiful Disillusionment trait. With 5 boons it increases boon duration by 15%. So 15s might becomes 17.25s might. Not big encrease. Mb somehow worthy at wvw with durations food/boon spam + condy applying.
Good advices
Just some remarks:
Mirror with stow weapon ~ 1s of reflecting with 4s of CD (not 3s CD)
Signet of inspiration when used to share time warp quickness – is it worthy to share 1s quickness only?
Blind: suggest additional recourse for it – block/evade + Ineptitude
Its not the “allowed to travel” reset that you can achieve by simply running out – it is genuine slow walk towards the camp (without even resetting the health) after killing a clone.
Hmm. Tryed to do as you described, but npc behavior still same: when nearest target is out of distance (it is you after clone death) npc turns towards camp and walking slowly only few sec, then running back + regenerating health. Mb I should play with jumps in and out of distance.
They all have same aggro distance, but because scouts have ranged attacks you can kite them little further. All npc have different initial spots, thus while you are inside of max aggro distance of certain npc, you could be out of max distance of other npc. That is why you are able lure only 1-2 by kiting away from camp.
Anyway everybody choose most suitable and comfortable play style. I personally prefer to lure all npcs to spot and burst them down, focusing on supervisor and interrupting npc heals. Usually it takes 30-50s on my hybrid. I think it would be even faster on full power with sword.
I’ve noticed a weird thing: quite a few of them will reset after killing your clones and slowly walk back to their normal spots! I’m not sure is it a bug or a feature but it definitely helps your survivability to fight with 1-2 guards at the time instead with whole camp.
Every camp npc have max “allowed to travel” distance that calculated from their initial spawn position. If npc should exceed this max distance in order to hit nearest target – it starts regenerate and goes back to initial position. Advice for you – don’t fight 1-2 gurds (mb only while learning), but aggro them all and pack them by kiting at narrow places and start burst (condi or/and direct dps) hard. Just stps back from blinding fields.
.
. Desperate decoy was fixed to proc at 50% and CD was fixed too. So occasionally getting hits while stomping procs desperate decoy more often for me , thus stops any action. Wrongly tied problem to shatter because off habit to blind shatter downed enemy interrupts