Guild Wars 2

I could already get annihilated by Condi Reapers as a Revenant, but the recent patch makes this even more one-sided. My only option is to jump a Necro as he’s distracted and do as much damage as possible before I die.

Even as a Reaper player, I think some of the changes were unneeded; particularly the Scepter one. The rest are kinda fine, but Condi Reaper really does have too much condi pressure.

As unlikely as it would be, what if Ventari somehow increased the max vitality of your team mates for a while and/or could apply a sort of overheal?

That would give it a huge niche.

Also, I’ll be going over your other suggestions in…a while, Burntik. I need to find some free time and then analyze em!

Alekt.5803:

I don’t want elementalist to be balanced exclusively with the idea that Focus exists; “that they have access to this massive 3 condi clear ability, extreme projectile hate, and an on-command invulnerability”. This short description does not represent the reality of Staff or Warhorn…

Unfortunately this isn’t a unique to the Elementalist.
Almost every class is suffering from the same thing because of the power creep.

I think almost every single game I’ve played EVER has prioritized damage in an optimized scenario. It’s logical. Even in games where defense is valuable, you will only stack just barely enough and then put everything else into damage. I suggest any who think otherwise to start watching real speed runs and then tell me how many people stack 100% defense for their run.

No one is stopping anyone from playing a Nomad’s Druid, but no one should expect or force that Nomad’s Druid to be wanted in an optimized setting.

a) Jump them and try to dodge and deal damage as best you can.
b) Run away.
c) Die.

:^)

MadVisions.4529:

Malchior.5732:

It also doesn’t fire outside of 600 range.

it tracks invis targets though

It’s a skill that doesn’t require the player to have a target themselves, but merely checks if there are targets in range (part of what we’re complaining about actually…), so is that actually surprising?

MadVisions.4529:

Burtnik.5218:

Booms.3952:

Good thing precision strike tracks so it still hit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AoRq8cdAlQ

This video disagrees with you. Something else?

here you go! https://youtu.be/o9bCVXyqR5g
the demostration:
#1: MAXIMUM range is disjointable with sidestepping IF the revenant is standing still
#2: mid range is NOT disjointable
#3: ?WTF? no maximum distance traweled, it seems this skill is not disjointable with teleporting.
#4: if the reve is chasing you and not standing like a kitten skill isn’t disjointable with sidestepping.

3 is broken and in 4 you kept going directly away from the Revenant instead of continuing to go perpendicular or switching direction (sometimes it’s borderline standing still).

Also, you guys should try using leaps like Dragonhunter’s. Sometimes Precision Strike will literally go directly to the sky, aiming at nothing.

@ Booms:

I’ve never hit 10k with Precision Strike. Most I’ve hit was ~7.5k which sin’t common at all.
It seems to average 4k – 5k when I run Zerker with Ret/Dev/Herald. It also doesn’t fire outside of 600 range.

Booms.3952:

@above
Good thing precision strike tracks so it still hit

Yea, I don’t think going directly up will actually hit anything.

Hansen.3264:

Malchior.5732:

Lexander.4579:

funny how rev players whine here while they effectively have thief dps and mobility while having 50% more hp and armor and better defensive mechanisms

1. Phase Traversal got nerfed because it chased too hard.
2. Thieves have Shadowstep, SB5, Sword 2, and MANY other skills that can not only get to a target, but can also be used to escape.
3. Revenants have very little escape potential by comparison; they NEED more staying power.
4. Thieves actually have FAR more evades, gap-closers, and damage (just for comparison, in PvE, max damage Revenant deals ~19k DPS while a max damage Thief deals 27k DPS)

only problem is that when a thief fights a rev the thief dies after sword 2 +3
or if he gets the upper hand he dies after the rev have used shield 5 and then swap to staff and spam the op skills there

Uh, if we’re going to argue this, I could just as easily say:

The Thief uses Steal, uses the stolen ability to Slow the Revenant (who has no instant cleanses whatsoever) or saves it up for when he decides to swap to Glint to prevent Facet of Light from even activating, the Thief evades both Sword 2 and 3 because they have more than enough evades to spare and then they start beating on the Revenant with Shadow Shot, Autos, and Black Powder. If the Revenant so much as decides to use Shield 5, the Thief then uses Basilisk Venom (either forcing a Shield 5 cancel or then stunning them through it) and proceeds to kill him.
Hell, the Thief could start the fight by dropping Poison on the Revenant with Shortbow and kiting and then swapping to D/P or whatever and wrecking him there while crippling the heals.

This is why that sort of argument doesn’t really work here. Both classes have ways to counter certain things so it falls on skill somewhat, but what we’re arguing about is that Precision Strike is too good at one specific scenario, but completely random, unreliable trash in another that’s out of anyone’s control. For crying out loud, I had my Precision Strike literally go directly up because my opponent decided to use a leap.

Hooglese.4860:

A) precision strike is supposed to be powerful 1v1 but weak in team fights
B) backstab is good for 1v1s and teamfights
C) vault does more DMG than backstab so if you’re going to compare it to something…
D) precision strike is very buggy. I know that’s not intended but it definetly nerfs it to a degree.

Despite that prec strike needs a change. It’s clunky to use and to deal with

E) You can aim backstab at a single target. Precision Strike targets whatever it wants.

Booms.3952:

Malchior.5732:

Lexander.4579:

funny how rev players whine here while they effectively have thief dps and mobility while having 50% more hp and armor and better defensive mechanisms

1. Phase Traversal got nerfed because it chased too hard.
2. Thieves have Shadowstep, SB5, Sword 2, and MANY other skills that can not only get to a target, but can also be used to escape.
3. Revenants have very little escape potential by comparison; they NEED more staying power.
4. Thieves actually have FAR more evades, gap-closers, and damage (just for comparison, in PvE, max damage Revenant deals ~19k DPS while a max damage Thief deals 27k DPS)

Dude every decent player in the game knows revenant is overpowered and is the best class in the game atm. Nobody cares about 0iq required pve.
Precision strike atm is the best skill in the game right before bristleback f2

Ah, sorry, I forgot I was arguing against mindless PvP drones.

For reference, a Zerker “meta” Revenant deals similar damage (spamming Autos, Sword 2, and using Quickness + Facets) to a Marauder “meta” Daredevil just auto-attacking with Dagger.

Lexander.4579:

funny how rev players whine here while they effectively have thief dps and mobility while having 50% more hp and armor and better defensive mechanisms

1. Phase Traversal got nerfed because it chased too hard.
2. Thieves have Shadowstep, SB5, Sword 2, and MANY other skills that can not only get to a target, but can also be used to escape.
3. Revenants have very little escape potential by comparison; they NEED more staying power.
4. Thieves actually have FAR more evades, gap-closers, and damage (just for comparison, in PvE, max damage Revenant deals ~19k DPS while a max damage Thief deals 27k DPS)

Burtnik.5218:

Malchior.5732:

make Sword a real 1v1 assassin weapon or make it semi-decent at 1v1, but become stronger against groups; fix Shield and Perma-Stab crutch while you’re at it. Preferably while maintaining PvE power (dat split balancing would be nice).

I prefer to make it 1v1 focused wep to pick off targets in teamfights but also cause it open up a future power weapon called greatsword focused more on aoe attacks.

And yeah.. they nerfed the wrong trait, perma stability still doing well on herald while core trash rev got another nerf bat. Talk about “competence”

Balance split wont happen either.

Since Revenant is a bit of a hipster when it comes to weapon usage (and because it preserves some of the flavor that comes with the Shiro legend), I’d like Sword to be better in team fights and somewhat worse in 1v1 while the next weapon is either a strong 1v1 weapon or ranged (and I’d personally rather have Pistol or Rifle or a Bow since the class is already mostly melee and Hammer is terrible at kiting).

Well, that’s kinda the point of energy management. You either manage it and use it correctly or you end up having to wait for it.
Jalis, Ventari, and arguably non-Herald Mallyx just don’t do enough to justify costs in a lot of their skills or they cost too much.
You pay like 30+ energy and then nothing worthwhile happens and like 2-3 of your weapon skills are now locked out for a bit too.

The damage it can do was going to be a problem in PvP from the very beginning.
If every hit lands (which I’ve had a lot of trouble guaranteeing at any range other than melee) then it can do 4k – 7k, assuming all crits.
Sometimes, though, it’ll just send the projectiles in random directions, missing completely or target random objects you don’t want to hit at all and it becomes more of a frustration to use.

You can’t just blindly lower the damage either because you’ll hurt the PvE side that’s already teetering towards getting replaced.

So Sword now has an issue that it’s a bit too strong in 1v1s, but complete trash in anything above that. I was dueling my Reaper friend just for fun, despite knowing I don’t stand much of a chance and he started using Flesh Golem just to mess with me; the result was that until that Golem died, my Sword skills barely did anything to him. Maybe 2k damage at best. I couldn’t really burst him down because of the Golem and couldn’t outlast the Golem because lol conditions.

So basically, I agree with Ron and Burtnik; I want Sword to be changed because it’s not fun to get bursted like that and it’s not fun to have all your damage randomized due to targets.
That being said, I have to blame Shield and Enhanced Bulwark as well, because they just give Revenant so much sustain and defense compared to core Revenant.
I had to go back to core just to see how different it was and wow.
It needs a lot of help, but I think it’s much more fair to fight than Herald.

Tl;Dr make Sword a real 1v1 assassin weapon or make it semi-decent at 1v1, but become stronger against groups; fix Shield and Perma-Stab crutch while you’re at it. Preferably while maintaining PvE power (dat split balancing would be nice).

BlackBeard.2873:

Barnesy.5839:

Arcane is not good enough at providing protection. It has poor up time. A thief steal or necro boon corrupt will easily interrupt your overload earth, which causes you to lose your biggest source of protection. Once that happens you die very quickly.

Why on earth would you EVER overload earth? It literally does nothing since the prot duration got reduced. The only overload you should use is air if you can cover it to not be interrupted, and fire if it happens to be charged when someone goes down. If you are running aurashare (and thus not providing as much team-cleanse) you CAN overload earth if there are a lot of projectiles flying, but there are sever penalties to doing so.

Please don’t overload earth, especially as a focus user (although that applies in general). It kills your prot uptime, and locks you out of earth attunement, which has your most important defensive skills. All the while, if you DO overload earth, you get….a few bleeds, a blast (5s after the cast, so you finish no fields), and an immob that immediately cleansed. Not worth kitten cast, even without the penalty of sitting on your hands for 5s in earth and being locked out for 20s.

I’m probably just talking kitten, but I think the Ele players forgot how to play core Ele.
Some acting like they don’t have condi cleanse, no prot, they gotta overload, etc.

Barnesy.5839:

P.S. I so wish the protection on overloard earth was not nerfed. Then people would not be forced into earth specialization if they want to maintain prot on themselves.

Back in my day, Eles used Elemental Attunement to maintain Prot on themselves. Then again, we didn’t have all this high-powered stuff being thrown around like candy.

Facets ARE Signets.

Roy specifically mentioned, and I agree, that energy regen wasn’t going to be added because it would become a necessity for every build (ironically what Herald is now).

Legends like Jalis and Ventari aren’t weak because of a lack of energy regen. They’re weak because they either have really bad skills or the skills just don’t do enough.

Also guys, on top of Druid out-classing Ventari in a healing scenario, recall that they can also buff up the group’s damage by quite a good amount.

I think buffing Ventari in some way is completely necessary, but Ventari is going to need some sort of extra support outside of healing to be considered at all.
No group would ever drop a Druid in a raid and no group wants two healers, so I think Ventari Revs need something extra.
Facet of Nature and Protection are nice, but again, I don’t think switching your Power Rev to a Ventari Healer (and/or dropping Druid) will be considered for Raids and the Protection can already be covered by Hammer Guard + Power Revenant.

Sorry if someone has already mentioned something like this, but I think it needs some consideration. A pure healer, even if it heals more than Druid, just wont cut it in Raids, at least not right now.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Rym.1469:

You people have to be seriously bored to come up with these threads. Removing weapon swap, removing traits…

Weapon swap is fine. And this trait only needs to altered not removed.

“Assassin’s Annahilation needs to go”

R O C.6574:

But the YouTube videos of people losing their kitten will be amusing. Seriously though I think it would be interesting to see how it affects the gameplay.

Best-case scenario: Literally nothing happens.

Worst-case scenario: It’s so annoying that people literally stop playing the game.

There’s nothing interesting here lol

What’s the point of this at all?

It doesn’t stop anything, it just makes it super frustrating if you happen to be mashing a skill to activate it as soon as possible. There’s no skill increase either. It would just be there to be annoying.

So I’m being punished for trying to activate a skill as soon as possible? God forbid I’m lagging just a tad and press the button a few times.

Unless I’m misunderstanding, this is a terrible idea and sounds incredibly frustrating and not fun.

I think this guy is legit high or something.

Supreme.3164:

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Focus is not good for the elementalist class in general because it is way stronger than the rest.

I have no idea what this even means.
Are you saying Focus isn’t good because it’s better than your other options?

I am implying that Focus should be nerfed. You need to start by dragging every elementalist weapon set to uselessness, then start over.

Resetting powercreep in-general would be a good idea, at least in PvP/WvW.
I feel like they REALLY need split-balancing. PvE feels mostly fine. You SHOULD feel powerful there. That’s good, but in PvP/WvW, there’s just too much of everything, necessitating newer skills/traits to do even more of everything just to compete.

Well, the thing is that no matter what buffs you give to Elementalists, the weapon set are so imbalanced inside the class that Focus will always end up above all others. Then, every changes must be thought with the idea, “but how strong focus will be with that change? Too strong”.

So, because of the most boring playstyle ever seen from Elementalist, everyone who loves the class must pay for these clowns d/f.

I’m still surprised they gave Eles a 33% CD reduction in Earth without changing Focus.
They gave them a 33s Invulnerability with almost no downside that lasts 4 seconds, and a 16s Reflect that cures three conditions!

Now, I personally like playing with Dagger Ele; it’s very fluid and feels like it connects well. The problem is that Eles have been stuck with MH Dagger for so long with very few other options.

You figured out an interesting way to play Staff, but a lot of people, myself included, just couldn’t get it to work or feel that Earth Shield is too clunky (which is fine, that gives you a very unique, interesting build that most people wont know how to handle). So most people will flock to the more well-known, the tried-and-true, MH Dagger. Problem comes from Anet just never properly balancing the traits or the weapons and since MH Dagger benefits a bruiser style best, the traits push you into that direction a bit too much, and the other weapons simply don’t receive the changes they need, then everyone ends up with the same build.

What was once very fun and fluid has become all too repetitive, predictable, and boring which is expected from a class that has relied on the same build-type for so long and the same weapon for over 3 years.

Elementalist was way more interesting in PvE a long time ago before HoT (although I can’t speak for post-HoT Ele). The builds to choose from were S/D, D/F, and Staff. All of them had their uses and while some were clearly superior for more situations, you could always use any of them and still do good.

I think I’ve rambled enough lol

tl;dr Anet messed up the balance, never fixed it and build diversity has suffered ever since.

Wanna talk about powercreep? then let’s start from here : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crystal_Hibernation , so…where are the downsides respect to obsidian flesh? or what about this
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warding_Rift?

There would be more..but I stop here..so let me ask again, why the only defensive weapon set on ele should be nerfed?

The Rev hate is real.

I’m the first to say that Shield/Herald has too much sustain, but then again, Herald is way too necessary. It has a lot of extra sustain, damage, and support.

That being said, Crystal Hibernation is a skill that roots you, has a 25s cooldown, and costs 20 energy on a class that shares its resource between all of its skills, excluding Autos. Obsidian Flesh is a 4 second Invulnerability with a 33s cooldown (when traited) with its only downside being that it prevents point-capture (funny enough, Crystal Hibernation used to do that too) on a class with 18 more skills to play with and much higher sustain and MUCH more defenses against conditions.

Warding Rift is a defensive skill on a mostly defensive weapon. Cooldown is a bit low, but when taking Energy into consideration, it’s actually balanced similarly to the other blocking skills. For reference, Gear Shield, Warrior Shield 5, and Engineer Shield 4 all last 3 full seconds instead of Warding Rift’s 2 seconds. The Blind is kinda just there honestly.

Now, seems like you misunderstood me.
I didn’t say Ele’s only defensive set should be nerfed. I said EVERYTHING should be nerfed. Every class (at least in PvP/WvW).

The standards for every class have been raised to crazy levels. You NEED really strong skills just to stay afloat. Compare core Revenant to Herald and you get a much more balanced class with a much higher risk/reward ratio. I’m sure people would hate on the damage anyway, but fact is that we wouldn’t have Shield sustain, no Glint heal, no perma boons, no +50% boons, barely any team support, slightly lower damage, no good Stability up-time (Jalis Road is garbage and the Stab-on-Roll trait isn’t really that big of a deal by itself), much lower possible Resistance (pretty crap actually), etc.

However, that’s an issue with most elite specs anyway. Most of them are pretty overtuned and have created a new standard of power (aka powercreep). If any new skill/trait isn’t at X amount of power, it’s garbage.

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Focus is not good for the elementalist class in general because it is way stronger than the rest.

I have no idea what this even means.
Are you saying Focus isn’t good because it’s better than your other options?

I am implying that Focus should be nerfed. You need to start by dragging every elementalist weapon set to uselessness, then start over.

Resetting powercreep in-general would be a good idea, at least in PvP/WvW.
I feel like they REALLY need split-balancing. PvE feels mostly fine. You SHOULD feel powerful there. That’s good, but in PvP/WvW, there’s just too much of everything, necessitating newer skills/traits to do even more of everything just to compete.

Well, the thing is that no matter what buffs you give to Elementalists, the weapon set are so imbalanced inside the class that Focus will always end up above all others. Then, every changes must be thought with the idea, “but how strong focus will be with that change? Too strong”.

So, because of the most boring playstyle ever seen from Elementalist, everyone who loves the class must pay for these clowns d/f.

I’m still surprised they gave Eles a 33% CD reduction in Earth without changing Focus.
They gave them a 33s Invulnerability with almost no downside that lasts 4 seconds, and a 16s Reflect that cures three conditions!

Now, I personally like playing with Dagger Ele; it’s very fluid and feels like it connects well. The problem is that Eles have been stuck with MH Dagger for so long with very few other options.

You figured out an interesting way to play Staff, but a lot of people, myself included, just couldn’t get it to work or feel that Earth Shield is too clunky (which is fine, that gives you a very unique, interesting build that most people wont know how to handle). So most people will flock to the more well-known, the tried-and-true, MH Dagger. Problem comes from Anet just never properly balancing the traits or the weapons and since MH Dagger benefits a bruiser style best, the traits push you into that direction a bit too much, and the other weapons simply don’t receive the changes they need, then everyone ends up with the same build.

What was once very fun and fluid has become all too repetitive, predictable, and boring which is expected from a class that has relied on the same build-type for so long and the same weapon for over 3 years.

Elementalist was way more interesting in PvE a long time ago before HoT (although I can’t speak for post-HoT Ele). The builds to choose from were S/D, D/F, and Staff. All of them had their uses and while some were clearly superior for more situations, you could always use any of them and still do good.

I think I’ve rambled enough lol

tl;dr Anet messed up the balance, never fixed it and build diversity has suffered ever since.

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Focus is not good for the elementalist class in general because it is way stronger than the rest.

I have no idea what this even means.
Are you saying Focus isn’t good because it’s better than your other options?

I am implying that Focus should be nerfed. You need to start by dragging every elementalist weapon set to uselessness, then start over.

Resetting powercreep in-general would be a good idea, at least in PvP/WvW.
I feel like they REALLY need split-balancing. PvE feels mostly fine. You SHOULD feel powerful there. That’s good, but in PvP/WvW, there’s just too much of everything, necessitating newer skills/traits to do even more of everything just to compete.

Your whole argument is based on a single assumption:

Assassin’s Annihilation procs constantly.

This is not consistent. It’s not realistic. It’s not 4 auto-attcks in 15s. That assumes too much.
It’s a good trait. It can be strong, but it’s fine.

If sustain is an issue, you should move your sights over to Shield, which has much more consistent healing abilities and both of its skills equate to SEVERAL AA procs and both skills are much harder to counter than something as simple as turning which can be done with a single key press.

ronpierce.2760:

Malchior.5732:

Sabull.5670:

But wasn’t Sword #2 supposed to be shot 3 static directions?
So that the revenant can hit them on a single target if you stack inside enemies hitbox. Atm it’s a 600 ranged homing missile nuke 3×1.0 = Killshot/eviscerate skill on a 4s cooldown. Something that I find abit too much.

It hits for like 4k on 3x crit lol
The most I’ve ever seen it do in PvP was ~7k while using the absolute highest damage I could (Inv/Dev/Herald which isn’t the norm) and the appropriate Sigils.

It also targets stuff randomly around it, including minions, pets, illusions, boxes, houses, and other random objects.

That damage is pretty low, that you quoted. But regardless, it’s a pretty strong skill.

But that’s back to my original point, Sword needs some real reconsideration. It’s a mess. Too good 1v1, potentially, and gets destroyed in usability in groups/around objects/with pets. The skills really need some major reworking, not more bandaids.

I sat there, spamming Precision Strike on several Golems.
I got 4k -5k and SOMETIMES I would get that magical 7k (usually not).
In fact, when I swapped to the generic Rev Power build, I had it hit for less than 3k on occasion…

Sabull.5670:

But wasn’t Sword #2 supposed to be shot 3 static directions?
So that the revenant can hit them on a single target if you stack inside enemies hitbox. Atm it’s a 600 ranged homing missile nuke 3×1.0 = Killshot/eviscerate skill on a 4s cooldown. Something that I find abit too much.

It hits for like 4k on 3x crit lol
The most I’ve ever seen it do in PvP was ~7k while using the absolute highest damage I could (Inv/Dev/Herald which isn’t the norm) and the appropriate Sigils.

It also targets stuff randomly around it, including minions, pets, illusions, boxes, houses, and other random objects.

Now, if it was actually consistent in its job, then you could argue that it’s a bit too strong. Problem is that it’s complete trash in anything other than a pure 1v1.

That would kinda remove a lot of visual cues.

Daniel Handler.4816:

@Malchior. I think part of the confusion is that you are using the hit box for the inulvnerable golem. What consitutes the front of a character is only about 120 degrees. The larger the character the larger the adjust that needs to be done to get to the side.
You should run your test for AA on a golem that is as wide as your are, something like the small or medium sized golem.

Quickness uptime is not perma. And as I said, as long as you can get in 4 hits of AA while the target is over 50% the damage is around equal over the time that is the cooldown of the sword burst, regardless of whether you make any other hits. I dont see mathematically one has to make 100% uptime.

That being said I agree with you why the necro skill is underpowered, as it is a group buff.

As for the warrior, again I would tell you to redo your tests with smaller hitbox in order to see how easy maintaining this pressure is.

I don’t think you got my point: the trait will not proc this often (aka 100% as you assume) against a real player that can apply counter-pressure. It just wont. It’s inconsistent and dependent entirely on how they turn the character.
It also doesn’t matter if Quickness has 100% up-time or not, just that when you DO have it, it’s inferior.

Alekt.5803:

Focus is not good for the elementalist class in general because it is way stronger than the rest.

I have no idea what this even means.
Are you saying Focus isn’t good because it’s better than your other options?

Bovan.9481:

Responded in the reddit topic as well, this really isn’t as big of a deal as people make it out to be. Our damage is fine and our class still functions normally. The only thing that is a big issue at the moment is Precision Strike’s projectiles flying off all over the place into environmental objects.

“Some quick testing is telling me that these skills are using the default “unequipped” strength of 690, causing them to do 69% of the tooltip-suggested damage in PvE, and 75% in PvP."

“Our Herald was complaining that his autos went from like 10-13k in raids down to 4k.”

That sounds like a big issue.

Teutos.8620:

I just managed to repeat it again. 1 precision strike hit 6 times for a total of ~8k damage.

The opponent was a mesmer, in the down state, on clock tower right next to the wall (the little edge next to the capture point, not the one wall of the tower itself).

Alright, cool. I might try to replicate this on the weekend with my friend.

This is definitely a bug and needs to be fixed. Probably due to the recent fix. Try posting it in the Bugs forum if you haven’t already.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I’m confused how you set up your test.

At least for sword, AA and ST are equivalent for autoattacks over time, as we only have quickness at most 50% of the time.

Ill show you my math and perhaps you can show me yours.

This is on the invuln golem. Maurder’s amulet. 710 total ferocity from amulet and traits (197.33 crit damage). 94% crit chance. An average of 10 stacks of vuln. An average of 11 stacks of might. Autoattack chains do around 6300 damage with a 1113 increase from AA, or a 1260 increase from ST . You could do a 7072 crit with UA and ST for a 1414.14 damage increase, which is equal to around 4 hits of AA. UA has a deficit of 2 AA hits, as the attack itself will proc at least 2 AAs. You could do a 5597 crit with precision strike for a 1119.4 increase with ST or about 3 hits of AA, with a deficit of 2 as one can proc AA with precision strike. This means that if 4 AA procs are on targets above 50% the traits are equal overtime for the purposes of sword bursts.

So in a sustain scenario, which is most of the current meta, there becomes little reason to take ST, as AA provides superior heal over time, at levels comparable to HS. And its damage is equal or better over time in our current meta.

It is okay to have a two traits serving different purposes. ST is much better suited to bursts, while AA comes out ahead in sustain. AA is better for low crit/ferocity builds.

This still doesnt explain why the healing is so freaking large.

The damage and healing for that trait alone (even without including Focused Siphoning) are larger than the blood magic approach of the traits Vampiric and Vampiric Presence. Because unless the necro can hit more than 4 times a second, or uses minions, they wont heal/damage more than AA.

When adding in the grandmaster minor Focused Siphoning, AA heals more than HS while you are attacking, and still allows you to have another 2 dedicated heals. Revenant can have perma regeneration, 130 health per second. So even adrenal health on warrior cannot produce a scenario where the regen from AA is inferior. Lets not even discuss the perma regen options on warrior because we are talking about dps overall, and a warrior going for those options reduces their dps. Also infused light from herald is the exact same heal as defiant stance. Revenants can now have two warrior heals at once.

So class balance time. Lets place necro, warrior, and revenant in the exact same situation, attacking with a melee weapon while flanking.

Is there any way to justify revenants regen during that time, in comparison to the other classes?

I used the generic Ret/Dev/Herald build with Zerker amulet and did nothing but auto-attack with the Fury facet on (realize that most Rev builds in PvP don’t have Roiling Mists, let alone Invocation).

Hence, both ST and AA end up roughly equal in terms of damage.

Now, UA only procced once every time I used it while facing the golem. It’s not consistently proccing AA twice then. We can only assume it procs once per UA on-average then (in which case, ST is far better)

Now then, this entire thread keeps assuming you’re always proccing AA. That simply isn’t true. Missing just a few procs or using Quickness in any form will make ST deal more damage.

But I guess you weren’t complaining about the damage, but rather the healing.
It isn’t even comparable to other classes. Your comparison is disingenuous.

Lets start with Necro:

What does Vampiric Presence say?
_You and your nearby allies siphon health with attacks. _

What does Vampiric say?
_You siphon health with your attacks. Your minions siphon health and give it to you. _

From this text alone, we can see that both these traits affect more than just the Necromancer and they don’t have any conditions attached to them; the Necro (or the minions) land an attack, and that’s it. It’s extra, free healing and damage regardless of what you do and it also affects team mates/minions.
It’s not as strong as AA for good reason.

Now lets move on to Warrior, a class that many claim is currently undertuned and lacks sustain. I’m gonna say again that this comparison is disingenuous. Healing Signet is CONSTANT. The Warrior doesn’t need to maintain any sort of pressure to maintain that healing. The Adrenal regen does require you to build Adrenaline, but it doesn’t require you to do specific things or for you to be hitting every second.

Lets also consider:

Revenant only has one “good” heal truly. That being Infuse Light (the only other decent heal is Empowering Misery, but it’s just a much worse Consume Conditions), which can be gated behind Legend swap. Adding to this, Revenant has FAR less options against Conditions (oh look, HS can also give them Resistance) or CC and MUCH worse ranged options than both Warrior or Necromancer (necessitating good sustain since we’re mostly melee with few/no escapes). Finally, taking AA is technically reducing your DPS. Not by much, but you can’t realistically expect this trait to proc 100% of the time; it simply doesn’t happen. In that case, ST will out-DPS AA, especially considering Quickness.

I think these swords might be a tad better?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ceremonial_Sabre_%28skin%29

As for armor, I stumbled upon this site:
http://gw2style.com/index.php

Search for “Samurai” and you’re going to find some stuff that you might like.

brannigan.9831:

It’s definitely unbalanced that kind of damage. Defenders will tell you thieves are too squishy so it doesn’t matter but regardless its still not balanced. X is never a defense for Y. That kind of damage has no place in this game I don’t care if the person doing it has 1 vitality.

2k – 3k on auto or 4k+ on a low CD skill has become the norm (even before HoT), like it or not. It’s powercreep, but to be competitive in damage, you need to do this much or more.

Funny how defense was so stacked last meta, that this “crazy high damage” didn’t even matter.

I edited my post, but regardless, IF this is a bug (which NO ONE in the Rev forum has encountered apparently), then just report it. There’s no use in complaining about balance when it’s clearly unintended. However, you didn’t point out what happened and all we have is a log with damage numbers which leads me and everyone else to believe that you set this up and just got hit by two full Precision Strikes.

Teutos.8620:

Malchior.5732:

Precision Strike has a 4s cooldown and a 1/2s cast time…

I know, still 1 use of it hit me for ~8k.

Varezenem.2813:

Teutos.8620:

That’s not a second precision strike, that’s from the same.

That is not possible Precision Strike only sends 3 projectiles.

And it still did. You have the timestamp in the screenshot.
Oh no! A skill that does not do what it is supposed to do? Never heard about that!

Edit: ‘Ancestral Grace’ was also not supposed to blast multiple times when you jumped at the start of the cast. It still did.

The first Precision Strike did NOT hit you for 8k, it was ~6k and a lot of the damage wasn’t even directly from Precision Strike, but from Sigils (over 2000!).

The second one barely hit over 4k.

Now, IF somehow, PS hit you 6 times, that’s a bug and doesn’t really have to do with direct balance issues. You would report it as a bug to Anet and hope it gets fixed soon.
Unfortunately, this looks more like you just sat there and took two full Precision Strikes.

Precision Strike has a 4s cooldown and a 1/2s cast time…

I’ll entertain you, I guess.

So, over a period of ~6-7 seconds, you got hit for ~10k damage?
Why, that’s only 1400-1600 DPS! Thieves can do a lot more with just auto-attacks :^)

Hell, that second Precision Strike only hit for ~4k in three crits on, what I’m assuming, is a Retribution/Devastation/Herald Zerker Rev. I can do that sort of damage from 1200 range with a lot of classes. I’m more surprised they even landed, tbh.

Drayos.8759:

Varezenem.2813:

iroh.2871:

Rev’s in PvP are fine. They’re still awesome, they’re just not broken anymore.

Say that again after using Jalis or Ventari…

Say Reaper is OP after using Greatsword in PvP.

This is already an extremely flawed comparison.

First off, being OP doesn’t equate to being unusable.
Then, Reapers CAN use GS in PvP and do okay. It’s not amazing and could use some tweaks, but Power Reaper CAN work with GS (although GS is used for more niche situations than Dagger), it’s just over-shadowed by Condi Reaper at the moment.
You can’t really say the same for Jalis or Ventari (and arguably non-Herald Mallyx in PvP). They aren’t OP, they’re broken and almost completely unusable.

JayAction.9056:

Burtnik.5218:

Please show me how i can maintain perma swiftness on revenant with devastation, retribution, invocation traitlines without stopping in place for a 5 seconds or hammer weapon. Super speed ooc works like swiftness and has only 50% uptime, i rather use the energy for PT. Thats stupid.

Dev, Ret, Inv traitlines?

1. I don’t even…
2. Use teleport in shiro.
3. You rather give up IN COMBAT functionality for OUT OF COMBAT functionality? Do you take fall traits too? lol

1. That’s not proving your point.
2. Requires a target and high chance of putting you in combat.
3. We already have a trait that increases DPS in there; there’s not much reason to have another, even if it’s marginally better (only in PvE). I’d much rather have +25% movement speed so I’m not forced into Glint just for something so basic.
I’ve already argued this before:

Revenant, due to the way it’s designed, has to sacrifice a lot more for this basic feature than every other class.
Most classes sacrifice either:

a) Weapon + Trait
b) Utility
c) Utility + Trait
d) Utility + Weapon

Take Necro, for example. They can either use Dagger + Trait, Warhorn + Trait, Spectral Walk + Warhorn, or Signet of the Locust.
What can Revenant do for a permanent speed boost?
Sacrifice 5 utilities for Perma-Swiftness (as in, you have no choice, you HAVE to pick Glint for it).

How is that fair?
And no, Shiro doesn’t really count. Again, PT requires a target and can put you into combat easily (admittedly so can Necro WH, but you have other options and it doesn’t require a target) and IO is, at best, 50% up-time and is only better than Swiftness while in-combat.
So when roaming around or going through HoT without Glint, you’re as slow as a turtle. I remember running around as a Revenant in HoT, trying to unlock Herald, and I felt SO SLOW. My Necro friend was always much faster than me unless I had a target to use PT on (which sometimes led me into combat because lolnoswiftness or failed due to terrain).

You’ll probably argue next that Mesmers and Guardians didn’t/don’t have a trait like this either, but I’ll argue that they should. The slowness of Revenant is going to become more apparent if the next Elite spec doesn’t have permanent Swiftness in some way since you wont be able to pick Glint and then I’m sure people will complain more.

Boreal.9826:

Malchior.5732:

Boreal.9826:

Malchior.5732:

DeceiverX.8361:

I’ll also just point out it’s common to find Revs in WvW getting AA’s to hit for almost the same damage as most berserker DH’s True Shots due to their ample and substantive damage modifiers.

I ran Invocation/Devastation/Herald with full Zojja’s. My Hammer autos definitely weren’t hitting for True Shot damage.
I think I was averaging more around 2k-3k and more rarely I’d hit 4k.

A bit of footage from the night I unlocked Herald. Full exotics aside from amulet and rings. Mix of Berserker, Valkyrie and Cavalier. Typical might stacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLpvG_2lBIM

Hammer auto is VERY strong, as are Hammer 5 and 3. It’s just that everything, and I do mean everything, pales in comparison to the still broken CoR.

Thanks for proving my information then.
Literally, the only time your autos ever surpassed 4k (or 3k for that matter), you had Cruel Repercussions active, which is a strange, over-punishing trait that only seems good on Hammer.

For such a slow auto-attack and a weapon with 0 kiting, and the fact that we ran full damage traits, it seems fair. The issues with Hammer damage keep stemming back to Cruel Repercussions. If you think it’s too much, then let me point you to Ranger Longbow, which has about as much damage (or more) at 1000+ range, shoots faster, and has better range along with kiting abilities and stealth.

Granted it is hard to glean much from a short video, especially in WvW. There are just too many variables. But 3k+ autos were happening more often than Cruel Repercussions would allow for in this short, half speed video. Also, some targets were higher armor which scales down damage. I’m pretty sure any auto attacks over 4k were due to the proc.

I also have a Ranger and I’ll agree that Longbow seems most similar to Herald Hammer in WvW. Primary difference being that Ranger must go full Berserker to even approach similar damage output. Herald boons, traits and enhanced fury allow for more defensive stats, on top of inherently more survivability.

Simply put, in WvW, Hammer Herald is an offensive juggernaut. One of the biggest difference makers on the field. This is pretty well known, and many commanders are asking people to switch to Herald if they have one.

I think it’s silly to ask for Hammer buffs, if this thread was even serious to begin with.

The biggest reason for that was/is CoR. Hammer really doesn’t have much else going for it, especially in the other modes.
Sure, the Revenant can take more of a beating than the Ranger, unless it has to do with Conditions and CC, then the Ranger has a much higher chance to survive. Not to mention that Ranger has longer range with LB and can kite/stealth much better (more utility/survivability and nearly the same damage, at least in autos).

It’s really just that CoR, within the safety of a zerg, lets you wreak havoc and you can auto-attack without worry. It’s just the nature of WvW: you can have a backline that can spam incredibly powerful skills.
The problem stems from a lack of counter-play of CoR in these spam-fests along with Cruel Repercussions. Yes, the auto-attacks are strong, but you have to take full damage traits and at the very least, almost full damage gear and even then, it’s so slow and the weapon overall is so lacking that it’s more than fair.

Now, to me, I don’t think asking for Hammer buffs is silly. You can’t ignore that Hammer is pretty bad in both sPvP and PvE. It’s really only used at all because it’s our only ranged option, but it has poor DPS, bad kiting skills, and very slow animations.
What I mean when I think hammer should get buffed is more that we should shift the power from CoR (while giving it better counterplay) into the other skills and give 3 and 5 more utility, because they’re pretty worthless as is. 4 could be faster as well.

Basically, Hammer is only used in WvW because it can safely spam, but it’s crap everywhere else. Anet should change it so it’s useful everywhere and not just a one-trick pony, because its only real use right now is still spam.

You should just check out Obal’s guide.
If you want something for PvP, then your best “burst” combo is more along the lines of Sword 2 and AA. Sword 3 got nerfed and is definitely always a DPS loss nowadays.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Malchior.5732:

The skill to proc it? There’s only so much you can do about it since it depends on hitting your opponent at the sides/back.
Actually, assuming you land all 5 UA hits at the side against a target at less than 50% health, Swift Termination will increase damage per swing by 20% while Assassin’s Annihilation will proc about twice (it has a 1s ICD, so correct me if I’m wrong, but since UA takes 2 seconds to finish, you’ll only proc it 2 times at best), dealing a whopping ~400 damage and healing ~600 versus ST’s +2000 damage.

The only time Annihilation is better is if you’re flanking constantly, which isn’t really that super consistent. It’s a good trait, but it’s reliant on flanking and constant attacks, otherwise Swift Termination will overtake it, especially if you’re playing with Zerker and want to get quick kills.

UA has a 15 second cooldown. All you have to do is proc AA 6 times over those 15 seconds to get the same effect. And if you manage to proc the trait more than 6 times its even better than the best situation for ST. After all ST is only for when the target is at 50% or less heath. The worst situation for ST is when you use a skill that multi hits and it takes the character under 50% health. Like if UA did from 15k to 5k only 1 hit qualifies for the threshold based increased, while 2 hits qualify for the damage from AA.

Also the definition of the side in gw2 is subpar. You would expect that it is impossible to proc the trait while face to face with your enemy. But all cleaving weapons hit in an arc, and the “front” of the enemy is not a 180 arc, the slightest shifts in movement count as flanking. Whirl finishers count as flanking. Attacks that go through a character can be flanking. Aoe pulses can be flanking.

UA consistently only procs AA once , so yea. While the “side” in Gw2 is pretty generous, it’s not a 100% chance. It’s very likely that this trait will not proc as many times as you need it to during a fight to out-do or equal ST.

In fact, I just did a test. ASSUMING every single auto attack was from the side/back, which is actually rather unlikely in a real fight, AA will out-do ST against a full health Golem by a whopping….~36 DPS.
It might as well not even have a difference, really.

So, if we’re going to assume you always land AA procs, it’s safe to say that AA is marginally better! Of course, in a real fight, you’re not always going to land these procs, and if you miss even a few of them, ST overtakes it in damage.
Yes, AA also heals, but ST works well regardless of the skill used and deals more damage overall with the use stronger attacks (20% of 3k > 371 which is the number I had for AA).

Does this really mean it’s OP? Eh. It’s a strong trait for sure, but since it’s conditional, dependent on constant pressure, and has a 1s ICD (which means if you have Quickness, ST is miles better), I think it’s pretty fair.

The skill to proc it? There’s only so much you can do about it since it depends on hitting your opponent at the sides/back.
Actually, assuming you land all 5 UA hits at the side against a target at less than 50% health, Swift Termination will increase damage per swing by 20% while Assassin’s Annihilation will proc about twice (it has a 1s ICD, so correct me if I’m wrong, but since UA takes 2 seconds to finish, you’ll only proc it 2 times at best), dealing a whopping ~400 damage and healing ~600 versus ST’s +2000 damage.

The only time Annihilation is better is if you’re flanking constantly, which isn’t really that super consistent. It’s a good trait, but it’s reliant on flanking and constant attacks, otherwise Swift Termination will overtake it, especially if you’re playing with Zerker and want to get quick kills.

DeceiverX.8361:

How is being ranked fifth out of nine on DPS alone (perfect middle rank) “close to trash tier”? To me, that speaks there is no busted mechanic in PvE going on for them (despite the case for WvW).

And the statements about sPvP are just blatantly untrue.

Revenants provide decent support, but still do less damage than say, Guardians who can provide Perma-Protection, AoE Quickness and 25k DPS while mostly auto-attacking (the very thing Revenant was accused of). Elementalists can also do pretty good support, but they do a lot more damage (~30k DPS) if they want. Yea, they’re squishier, but they also have far more roles that they can cover and they can pull off most of ours better (healer, DPS, Condi).
This isn’t to say that Revenant is trash tier, but even now, we’re relegated to Fury duty and Facet of Nature. Technically, Eles can already give out Perma-Fury and Druids can give out a decent amount too so our best job is Facet of Nature. There’s no other reason to take a Revenant and if either of those get touched by Anet, which isn’t impossible knowing them, then yea, we could see ourselves being less desirable.
We can’t really push our DPS much further either: ~19k – 20k DPS is as good as it gets, no matter what. Again, not saying Revs are trash, but we’re definitely teetering. Although, I will say this: Herald is not trash, but core Revenant is GARBAGE. No good team support outside of that one Devastation trait and the currently-weak Ventari and lower DPS.

Also, in PvP (actually, all game modes), Jalis, Ventari and Mallyx without Herald are all kinda suffering.