Guild Wars 2

There’s really nothing else to say.
CC and Condition Snaring isn’t counter-play apparently?
GG, bow down to your Mallyx overlord, since apparently using Shiro 3(?) and getting Stab for a few seconds (5s ICD is cool too) is too difficult to play around without dodging during the skill, even though you can dodge away during the cast time and get quite a decent amount of distance.

1. He didn’t flame you.
2. I already told you WHY it does what it does. It’s already a lackluster skill anyway.
3. You can CC the vulnerable Revenant to buy yourself time.
4. You can apply SEVERAL conditions on them.
5. You can just spike them down if you have burst damage.
6. You can run away since it has a small radius (think mobile classes).
7. You can use Resistance if your class has it.

Obtena.7952:

There are always a bunch of things you can do for this and that to play smart. That doesn’t mean the old sword and hammer skills were reasonable options in the first place.

I mean, are you actually defending a 2 second cooldown on Hammer 2? I REALLY hope not. That was just ridiculous.

I don’t know what you’re arguing at this point then.
You’re not arguing that it’s interesting or not anymore, but rather that they were OP, which is HIGHLY debatable.

Sword was our only DPS option and although its AA was on the higher end of the scale, the overall DPS was in-line with other classes (lower than others even!).
Sword 3 was already used mostly just for Defense and it had every single use nerfed.
Sword 2 is still trash.

Hammer just has CoR spam going for it, even now. That wasn’t fixed. However, the skill wasn’t really doing that much in PvP and was pretty much only causing chaos in large WvW fights. Meanwhile, the other skills are AWFUL at kiting and only #4 is really useful at anything other than hopefully stalling for a second.

Obtena.7952:

I’m pretty sure Anet does that. I’m certainly not going to believe that anyone’s standard for interesting gameplay is limited to pressing 1 … OR 2. It’s the same problem with Guardian Hammer Auto … not interesting, and NEEDS to be rethought.

Ironically, these are exactly the things that people WANT nerfed when they don’t have variety in weapon options. Think about that.

Again, if you limit yourself so much, it’s your own fault. Look at Ele Staff. Even worse since you could only really do good damage on stationary targets. However, there was a lot more to it that could make it really interesting while differentiating the bad from the good, even though a bad player could do really good DPS with just 1 and 2.

Also, your second point makes no sense.

Obtena.7952:

I’m not saying AA’s can’t be strong. I’m saying that as it was, it was boring, stupid gameplay for a new class that’s intended to maintain player interest.

Then stop being a mindless Revenant.
Yes, the skill floor is/was small, but that doesn’t mean you should just sit there and AA. There are a bunch of things you can do to both increase DPS and provide utility.

Obtena.7952:

Camping auto on sword was crap and so was setting my auto to Hammer #2. Nerf welcomed … and anyone that wants interesting gameplay from what is supposed to be an exciting class would agree.

Oh, yeah, that Precision Strike missing moving targets is so interesting and exciting!
See, I don’t buy this crap that AAs can’t be strong or a main source of damage. The whole point was that we could have something to fall back on since ALL of our skills eat Energy. You could focus 2-5 on utility or defense. Now, nerfing it slightly is fine, but then they made Sword 3 even worse, Sword 2 is a mess, and Hammer is still riddled with problems; it’s only use is CoR spam.

Shados.1306:

All i wanted was for them to fix the left click auto-attack speed while under the effect of quickness so I could enjoy the option as designed…and they don’t seem to have done that

They “forgot” to make Sword good at singling out targets even after these big changes to the weapon. Not surprised they haven’t fixed even half of the Revenant bugs and issues.

And he clearly disagrees. The skill has counter-play due to the nature of a Mallyx Revenant.

gannondorf.7628:

not 100% trash? Humm so we still usefull in something?

Yea, you can AFK and apply perma-Fury! (and Facet of Nature is still very useful)

Now my friends can’t complain about Revenants at all. Nerfed sustain, nerfed emergency button, trashed damage, non-working skills (have fun with Sword 2), tons of bugs, useless legends, and multiple traits that make 0 sense (Enhanced Bulwark untouched, but Unwavering Avoidance nerfed!?).

Rest assured that you wont have to worry when fighting Condi Necros at all, because you’re virtually guaranteed to die if you stay to fight regardless of build. Oh, and if you thought you could run away or use your Mallyx build somewhere away from the Necro, don’t fret, because that Thief is going to trail you and destroy you.

Sure, we’re not 100% trash, but we’re not too far off.
Anyway, thanks, Anet, because at the very least we wont have people complaining that Revenant has any strong points at all :^)

These skills “pulse” and therefore just apply to anyone in the radius, unless they specifically prevent Conditions from being applied (Invuln, Diamond Skin, etc.).

Yea, it’s weird, but I think it works like that in PvE as well for condition pulses.
I.E. EtD isn’t an “attack”, it just applies Torment to anything around it.

Burtnik.5218:

Regon Phoenix.8215:

condition cleanse

I got rekt hard

Yea, I don’t know where he saw those condition cleanses.

Here’s a pro-tip for the OP though: Condi Reaper

There you go. No Revenant in existence stands an iota of a chance against you now. It was pretty bad pre-patch, but now, you’re almost guaranteed to win.

Odokuro.5049:

You mean Revs won’t be able to AA with their hammer and Crit like a 1200 range backstab, nice!

What AAs were you being hit by? Because Hammer AA definitely wont reach backstab damage on any reasonable target.

Ithilwen.1529:

push rev forward

By nerfing several things and buffing the counters dramatically?

Xiahou Mao.9701:

The balance preview was definitely not 100% of the changes.

You’ll see the rest on Tuesday.

I’ve been here long enough to know that the preview was probably most of the changes.
Might not be 100%, but 99% is pretty darn close.

Prove me wrong, Anet, please.

XxsdgxX.8109:

scerevisiae.1972:

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

scerevisiae.1972:

This is the worst proposed change. rev is already annoyingly vulnerable to CC, this will make it worse.

Um,..stability on roll+grandmaster bulwark that makes stability double in stacks+adept master traits that generate vigor.

revenant is the most immune to CC.

Because noone would ever think of boon stripping/corrupting before CC/bursting right?

Rev is the most immune to CC versus noobs, sure.

^

Aside from the fact that you have to waste a dodge to get the stability.

And needing to run 2x trait lines to have that as an option at all, let alone having more Boon duration from Runes to actually make it permanent, which does leave you susceptible to big damage spikes, which I’m sure Thieves will love to do.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Burtnik.5218:

Defiant stance was never used cus of the fact it has casttime which always made it useless due to how predicable it was. Glint will share the same fate now.

Just as well you have a second heal on your alt legend, and let’s not forget 3.8-5k healing with shield. Warrior doesn’t have those luxuries. facet of light coverts conditions, defiant doesn’t. So lets not compare.

The amount of people who are too inept on how to figure how facet of light works will actually have to learn now. Here’s a hint. Sigil of speed.

Shiro Heal can be reflected, stopped by other projectile hate, and is completely dependent on your own pressure. If you’re being pressured, it’s worthless.

Jalis Heal would be nice, but since it cleanses after healing, it gets annihilated by Poison.

Ventari can’t sustain the Revenant very well.

Mallyx heal is alright, but just a worse Consume Conditions.

Glint heal can no longer be used while stunned and Facet of Light has a cast time, so it can’t be used immediately on-swap and also needs to be “prepared”.

I’ll giva ya Shield, but then again, we don’t have as much base health or versatility in Utilities or Elites, which the Warrior not only does, but can also choose from Berserker Stance, Endure Pain, or whatever without being stuck with options they don’t want (i.e. they can equip as many Stun Breakers or as much defense as they want/need while Revenants are stuck with whatever Legends they choose and only 2 Legends have decent heals, one of which is now getting nerfed for a second time while the other has no Stun Breaks).

Also, Facet of Light converts conditions? That’s news to me. Did I miss something in the patch notes? Because it definitely doesn’t convert conditions.
Also, Sigil of Speed? Really? I’ll be nice and assume you meant Sigil of Agility, but that doesn’t really fix the lack of an emergency button and assumes it doesn’t proc from an actual weapon swap by the time you need the actual heal.

It’d be cool if people stopped with the Revenant hating and bashing just because of PvP (which many classes are guilty of “ruining” thanks to HoT, not just the Revenant) and actually realize all the issues with the class (both OP and UP) that will be especially highlighted in the coming days and how none of them are being addressed.
I think a lot of us would be fine with this change if we weren’t being pushed further into Herald/Shield and now have almost all of our heals being crappy.

Carighan.6758:

Malchior.5732:

Alternatively, your opponent saw that you used it, stopped attacking for a second and you effectively only healed ~1600 and now you’re dead.

Yes, because it’s all 1v1 combat in slow-motion.

Or the team your fighting sees the animation and realizes you’re a Herald and have only a few options left.
Really, we can do this forever, but the fact is that this Heal relies entirely on the opponent and will be much harder to use against anyone competent while not fixing the “problem” of a Herald running into AoEs or the actual problem that almost all of our heals are garbage.

Mercurias.1826:

When supposed top-tier super elite PvPers start to throw a fit over an overpowered skill being tweaked, that’s when you know all of their tough talk is just that, talk.

Get over it and play something else if the changes make Rev unplayable for you. The devs didn’t destroy the whole game, and neither did they forcibly give you a salami colononoscopy. They aren’t trying to take away your fun. Stop being drama queens.

I didn’t know that getting healed for 1600 on a 30 second CD was OP, since that’s how much I Heal against people that know what they’re doing.

Cecylio.1286:

Here I am again, still confused about Revenant. I think I don’t like Rev, cause I don’t understand it. Legend swap feels like I’m changing a class, not just skill bar.

F.e. Mallyx’s weapons are obviously Mace/Axe, but there are no alternative condition damaging weapons. It feels like every Legend requires specific weapon. Why would you use Mace/Axe while on Shiro/Jalis? Shiro – Sword/Sword, but not other weapon, Jalis – Hammer is perfect match.

It’s hard for me to combine dps Shiro with healer Ventari, or condi Mallyx with boon/support Glint. I just don’t see connection. What stats to use? Which traits?

You don’t have a true secondary condition weapon, but Shiro is amazing regardless of weapon: Great Stun Break, mobility, great AoE Stun, and Quickness. All of those compliment any build.
Glint can also be used in any build because Boons are pretty universal and the activated skills have multiple uses (both for Condi, Power, and Support), but the most important one is definitely Facet of Nature.

Jalis and Ventari are more “set” in their ways, and Mallyx can sorta do some Power with Unyielding Anguish and Embrace the Darkness’+10% stat boost, but he shines the most with Banish Enchantment in Condi and being pretty much the only Legend that can survive for a while against Conditions, assuming they don’t strip Resistance off of you.

R O C.6574:

Varezenem.2813:

R O C.6574:

So is the added cast time on Facet of Light or Infuse Light?

Facet of light according to the livestream.

So then this really isn’t that big of a deal. When i’m on Glint i always pop that facet before a fight so if there isn’t going to be a cast time for infuse light, not really a nerf imo.

It’s a nerf if you:
1. Don’t use the Facet often and instead prefer Swiftness + Fury + Facet of Nature
2. Want to quickly swap to Glint to pop the heal
3. Get caught during the activation

Sandrox.9524:

Malchior.5732:

Sandrox.9524:

Malchior.5732:

Sandrox.9524:

As former dafiance stance user i can fully say it is because of the cast time but more because it is the only heal warrior have.Glint would not share same fate since you still have other heals to count on and lots of evades and blocks.

>i can fully say it is because of the cast time

Ok, so you agree.

>more because it is the only heal

So are you fully saying it’s because of the cast time or not having a second heal?

Regardless, I don’t think anyone considers Shiro’s heal as a real one (Empowering Misery is the only other decent heal and it’s still just a worse Consume Conditions) and Shield only goes so far.
Warrior can also have some evades and Blocks (along with Endure Pain, Berserker Stance, etc.) although the Warrior Shield is lacking a tad, but they can make up for it by not being completely annihilated by a few conditions.

I really do think the cast time will kill this heal outside of stupid crap that will happen regardless, like walking into AoEs (now it’s main purpose, in fact). So now Revenant wont have a great answer when CC-chained or bursted other than dropping a ton of energy on Riposting Shadows, using Gaze of Darkness or forcing themselves into Invocation and then forcing a Legend swap.

I am saying it is from both, but what really killed it that it is the only heal they have/depend on. Shiro’s heal is much better than no heal, and inferior consume conditions is better than have no heal at all again. And as for the CC chained, other proffesions have less answer to that, revenant is considered less troubled by it unlike thief, mesmer or necro.

Thieves (at least when I played a lot of Thief) ran 2x Stun Breaks and have a TON of mobility and escapes (something Revenant lacks). If they’re caught, they’re in trouble, but they have a lot of tools to prevent that from ever happening.

Necros have a harder time, but Reaper does bring them Stability in both Reaper Shroud and Chilled to the Bone. WurmWalk is also not bad for setting up escapes or pulling off risky moves. They’re also have a lot more options against Conditions, although more prone to dying to focus fire.

Mesmers have Stability, Evades, Blocks, Blinks, Distortions, decent Condi cleanses, and escapes (again, something Revenants lack) and while they might have trouble in the next meta, that might be more due to the recent nerfs and Thief buffs more than being weak to focus fire.

Im sorry you were talking about chained CC, and you are taking very specified builds and utilities to counter my argument, you can say that on rev with stab on dodge and just using shiro with energy sigils=perma evade basically. My main is thief and I use one stun break which is normal to thieves and when I play mesmer i have my distortion and my 2xblink using staff and gs. and my 2nd most played class necro it is a bit easier on reaper although the stab gain is very slow and usually fast CC stop it or using the stab in mid of cc bomb wouldnt help(if you even able to press the skill due it have cast time).

We werent talking on prevent, we were talking about when you get chained CC.

I didn’t really mention anything specific to any build except maybe Condi Cleanses on Mesmer. A Condi or Power Necro can both take WurmWalk, for example.

Whatever, point is, they all have escapes DURING CC-chains (utilities that get them OUT of the situation or help them survive through it) and the tools to prevent them entirely and the option to pick however many they want.

Revenant pretty much only has Riposting Shadows, Gaze of Darkness and the old Infuse Light to get out of a deadly CC-spam. Just a few days ago, the only reason I survived a CC-chain + burst was because of Infuse Light. I didn’t have 30 energy for Riposting Shadows and Gaze of Darkness didn’t help at all (I was instantly stunned again). They didn’t even fully heal me, but it was enough to get them to back off for a second and let me do something.

So all this means is that by having this heal nerfed like this with no compensation, we’re even more vulnerable to CC-chains/bursts than before (not good when Thief is picking up) and situations like this, where you can just get caught, you have no option but to die.

Yes, other classes suffer from focus fire, but again, they also have escape tools while being stunned, aren’t as ridiculously weak to Conditions, and have far more options.

Oh, and the only way to get any decent amount of Stability on Revenant is with Retribution + Herald (and I don’t really think any class should have perma/near-perma Stab, but they should just distribute the Stab into our utilities). That’s pretty limiting.

Sandrox.9524:

Malchior.5732:

Sandrox.9524:

As former dafiance stance user i can fully say it is because of the cast time but more because it is the only heal warrior have.Glint would not share same fate since you still have other heals to count on and lots of evades and blocks.

>i can fully say it is because of the cast time

Ok, so you agree.

>more because it is the only heal

So are you fully saying it’s because of the cast time or not having a second heal?

Regardless, I don’t think anyone considers Shiro’s heal as a real one (Empowering Misery is the only other decent heal and it’s still just a worse Consume Conditions) and Shield only goes so far.
Warrior can also have some evades and Blocks (along with Endure Pain, Berserker Stance, etc.) although the Warrior Shield is lacking a tad, but they can make up for it by not being completely annihilated by a few conditions.

I really do think the cast time will kill this heal outside of stupid crap that will happen regardless, like walking into AoEs (now it’s main purpose, in fact). So now Revenant wont have a great answer when CC-chained or bursted other than dropping a ton of energy on Riposting Shadows, using Gaze of Darkness or forcing themselves into Invocation and then forcing a Legend swap.

I am saying it is from both, but what really killed it that it is the only heal they have/depend on. Shiro’s heal is much better than no heal, and inferior consume conditions is better than have no heal at all again. And as for the CC chained, other proffesions have less answer to that, revenant is considered less troubled by it unlike thief, mesmer or necro.

Thieves (at least when I played a lot of Thief) ran 2x Stun Breaks and have a TON of mobility and escapes (something Revenant lacks). If they’re caught, they’re in trouble, but they have a lot of tools to prevent that from ever happening.

Necros have a harder time, but Reaper does bring them Stability in both Reaper Shroud and Chilled to the Bone. WurmWalk is also not bad for setting up escapes or pulling off risky moves. They’re also have a lot more options against Conditions, although more prone to dying to focus fire.

Mesmers have Stability, Evades, Blocks, Blinks, Distortions, decent Condi cleanses, and escapes (again, something Revenants lack) and while they might have trouble in the next meta, that might be more due to the recent nerfs and Thief buffs more than being weak to focus fire.

Sandrox.9524:

As former dafiance stance user i can fully say it is because of the cast time but more because it is the only heal warrior have.Glint would not share same fate since you still have other heals to count on and lots of evades and blocks.

>i can fully say it is because of the cast time

Ok, so you agree.

>more because it is the only heal

So are you fully saying it’s because of the cast time or not having a second heal?

Regardless, I don’t think anyone considers Shiro’s heal as a real one (Empowering Misery is the only other decent heal and it’s still just a worse Consume Conditions) and Shield only goes so far.
Warrior can also have some evades and Blocks (along with Endure Pain, Berserker Stance, etc.) although the Warrior Shield is lacking a tad, but they can make up for it by not being completely annihilated by a few conditions.

I really do think the cast time will kill this heal outside of stupid crap that will happen regardless, like walking into AoEs (now it’s main purpose, in fact). So now Revenant wont have a great answer when CC-chained or bursted other than dropping a ton of energy on Riposting Shadows, using Gaze of Darkness or forcing themselves into Invocation and then forcing a Legend swap.

R O C.6574:

Does anyone think the fact that Rev has double the amount of Heals, Utilities, and Elites make it a little OP just for that fact?
I used to main thief. I wasn’t winning as much so i switched to Rev. Now it’s hard to lose a match in PVP.

Do you think Elementalist is OP just for the fact that it has twice as many weapon skills?
I don’t think any seasoned Elementalist would say that, in fact, they would say their skills are over-balanced to compensate.

The Revenant has the same issue. Some skills are very strong (particularly Shiro), but most of the heals are trash, and quite a few utilities are just useless.

The reason you did so well is because Power Revenant currently has quite a low skill floor for success and can do good damage while Thief is squishy and difficult to use, especially in this meta.

reikken.4961:

Hooglese.4860

remove/reduce the healing delay of natural harmony cause no one is going to stay in a measly 240 range for 2 whole seconds.

You can move it during the delay

Doesn’t it just cancel the heal if you do that?

Firebird.8324:

Revenents are FAR too strong, as it stands it is incredibly hard to take them if I run EVERY CORRUPT U CAN, if the changes make it more of a 50/50 matchup instead of 70/30 (in favor of rev) then that would be more balanced.

I don’t understand how that’s possible unless you’re just getting yourself killed on purpose or spamming mindlessly.
Revenant has no cleanses (both Power and Condi are EXTREMELY weak to conditions; the latter only if you strip Resistance of course) and will have to eat all the conditions.
I even hopped on my Condi Reaper and not once have I seen a Revenant that stands an iota of a chance.

Sandrox.9524:

Dristig.9678:

The problem is the tiny animation can be obscured by the stun effect. When a Reaper Freezes a Rev for example. The block of ice completely obscures it.

that is no excuse though, some things will get obscured, it is the nature of the game. but the problem was and still is that it cannot be inturptted,can be used anytime(in mid of taking dmg). even when theh erald is CCed

Compare to Defiant Stance which is pretty much never used because of the cast time.

Sandrox.9524:

You have 2 heals and with herald you have 3 essentially but lets not count it.

Facet of life is strong heal with not so obvious animation/effect and when you can pop it in mid of CC you got caught nicely and got outplayed and just regain all the health by the following opposition attacks it was stupid

Alternatively, your opponent saw that you used it, stopped attacking for a second and you effectively only healed ~1600 and now you’re dead.

Auto-Attack is still alright and since Precision Strike will now always hit 3 times (although you’ll need to be inside the boss’ hitbox for certain encounters) then it should be fine, although I don’t have any exact math to confirm whether this next patch will be a DPS gain or a loss.

Hunter.4783:

Keep in mind, rev is forced into herald just as much as guardian, mesmer and EVERY OTHER CLASS is forced into their elite specs.

Now as fair as legend use is concerned, yes, ventari is institutional and dwarf is kinda bad. a lot of traits are kinda bad and half the elites are not worth using…BUT most other classes have the same problem (guardian is probably in a worse spot AND pushed further into trash tier)

Revenant isn’t an old class, so you’d think they wouldn’t repeat mistakes, or at least not as badly.

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Varezenem.2813:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

What you just described is the meta getting nerfed and the bottom feeders getting buffed… sounds kinda like balance, how is this a bad thing?

Because all you did was reverse the roles. You know what might happen? Thief completely removes all roamers from the meta and Necro removes any heavy-boon class from play (especially Revenant).

How is that good? Better would have been to reduce power of the dominating classes and see what happens.

You know what else might happen? Thief and Necro nerfs later on with their “counters” getting buffs
Effectively doing nothing but cycling classes.

Im still failing to see a problem here… cycling meta SHOULD happen…. not the same crap every time. And this meta is horriffcally bad and boring anyway.
No class should stay meta forever, eles, and no class should be non-viable in any game mode ideally.
A lot of things might happen… but they would all be preferable to this garbage meta in my mind

The part that you aren’t getting is that they a are changing the current meta to another one that will be just as bad. And like you said no class should be non-viable but that’s exactly what will happen with the revenant.

I get what you are saying, i simply disagree. You are talking about one isolated matchup that does nothing in my mind but create a counter for a class that currently has none. How is that not viable?

Revenant does have counters; they simply aren’t used for one reason or another at the moment.
Now that those counters are more viable due to certain classes being nerfed, and the Revenant itself also receiving nerfs, those counters are also BUFFED.
All that will happen is that the roles are reversed and we’ll get an equally bad meta in the opposite direction.

We have a good chance of going back to a nuke meta where people are just bursted down or we could enter a condi meta. In either one, Thief will determine if a roamer is viable at all or not due to superior mobility, high spike damage, good sustained damage, and now with all the tools Daredevil has added (if you thought Power Revenant was bad…).
If you don’t see problems here, then I can only assume this is your first competitive game.

lol… wow disagreeing with some of you on the high horse is kinda fun.

Look you can spin it all you want but you are guessing, we dont even know the final notes yet. Either way, Rev needs a kick in the teeth, its FAR too OP, everyone in the game knows this.

As to the meta, this meta is destructive… anytime bunkers are the standard its bad. It creates boring matches, even less fun to play, and extremely unexciting times in a game trying to actually create itself as an e-sport. Any meta you could describe would be preferable than this one from almost any standpoint… literally any.

No, this is not my first, far from it.. sounds more like you just dont want your toys taken away.

The funny part to me is that they are nerfing the easier one to avoid in the DH. As to the rest, im looking forward to the changes and the Necros as the most OP meta in the history and meta, lol

sigh
You know, you’re not making a case as to whether or not buffing the crap and nerfing the top dramatically is actually a good idea and instead started rambling about Revenant being OP, which I would agree needed changes?
However, by nerfing the Revenant as harshly as they’re planning to do and buffing the counters so dramatically, you will risk making the class completely unviable (which you claim you think shouldn’t be that way, but are now saying it’s fine).

It’s not about me wanting Rev to be OP or not (I don’t), but I’ve been there before: my class simply cannot play at a decent level because it’s just getting destroyed the entire match or is completely useless in comparison to another class and there’s literally nothing I could do about it. Yes, you could argue Revenant did that to some classes, but all we needed were a few shaves and changes, and that’s fine, but then they’re also buffing the biggest counters a LOT.

Yea, yea, we don’t know the final notes (considering Anet’s past, these are probably all the changes and they’re mostly final and going to remain unchanged), but I do know what might potentially happen. I’ve seen what Thief does to weaker classes and I’m almost certain a lot of people wont enjoy their glassier specs completely demolished over and over again. So what do you think will happen when a class has trouble against the most mobile class in the game that also puts out really good damage?

To finish up: dramatically nerfing the top of the meta while also dramatically buffing the bottom (although Necro wasn’t really at the bottom at all) is a great way to end up in the same exact scenario in reverse and we’ve seen Anet do this multiple times already. It’s almost always a mistake.

No, thats really not what ive said at all. If thats all you got from my posts i doubt youll get anything further
All you talk about is risks, and possibilities, not facts. We dont know what will happen.
What we do know is that Rev, Temp, Mes bunker in their current state are OP and need adjustments and that Thief and Warrior are under performing and need help.
I dont know how you expect any game to balance but bringing the top down and the bottom up is exactly what they should be doing.
DS tempests counter ANY condi class… your fear is exactly what they face every single match.
We wont know the end results regardless of the amount of theory crafting till we see it in practice, but what we do know is that the current state is broken, boring, and extremely un-entertaining.

See, you’re not proving anything either. You’re just assuming these issues will be fixed and that new, worse ones wont be created.
I’m using past similar occurrences to try to find out what will happen. There’s a chance that I’ll be right (notice how I accept that I might be wrong).
The point is that I don’t believe they should make such drastic changes for both sides, because, due to past occurrences, all that happens is that roles are reversed.

I’m just going to end here and wont continue this argument. We can agree to disagree if nothing else.

@ Laraley:
A key point is “team fight”. Why should an Elementalist be able to handle multiple players at the same time in both Condi and Power?
Also, if Condi generation were lowered too much (I’ll agree that it’s a bit too high, but that doesn’t excuse Elementalist whining about lack of options when they have so many to choose from which will obviously compete due to the sheer number), then there’s no point in playing Condi.
Crinn covered this point.

Regardless, Elementalists actually have the ability to have every single utility cleanse up to two conditions on reasonable cooldowns, not including their weapon skills. I feel like that’s more than enough and the only reason you feel forced into Diamond Skin is because of certain overtuned Condi builds (or arguably because players sometimes exaggerate what their bare minimum is in the pursuit of build diversity).

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Not only Revs, Eles and Guardians too rely almost exclusively on boons as defense.

At the very least Ele has a bunch of Condi Cleanses and Guardians have some as well.
Revenant has a laughable amount of condition cleansing.

Not sure which condition clear you are referring to for elementalist when Healing Rain cast time is one second and an half for a whooping 2 condition cleansed (if traited) every 3 seconds for 6 seconds, with no easily accessible condi clears other than this (unless ice field is blasted, if traited, and projectile finishers on water, if traited).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Water
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave_
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Torrents
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overload_Water
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Rain
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetic_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Disruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Fire
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ether_Renewal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Fire

Add to that Diamond Skin and compare to:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purifying_Essence
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Renewing_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eluding_Nullification
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Channel
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Stone (Cleanses AFTER Healing)

Don’t even come here and tell me Elementalist lacks Condition clears.

Reapers are getting more condition applications by a lot. I don’t play Diamond Skin and it is extremely hard to keep the condition clear to a supportable level. Yes, you could go Arcane Water Tempest, but then, what good will you do to the team; damage will be non-existant; and lets forget about tanky elementalist without proper amulets. Elementalist is a light armored class with lowest tier of life.

Given staff, Cleansing Wave competes against Aquamancer’s training and Soothing Disruption. Aquamancer means 30 seconds cooldown instead of 45 (or 12cr/min vs 8cr/min, if traited). Overload Water needs preperation and synergizes wrongly with Cleansing Wave, increasing the cooldown of the attunement to water (also synergizes wrongly with elemental attunement)…

I don’t give a single care about the condition clear of Revenants. You know what? Have fun with the Reaper condition spam, I don’t want to spend more time on this useless subject.

Elementalist has options against conditions, like them or not, so claiming that Elementalists have trouble with them is disingenuous at best.

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Varezenem.2813:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

What you just described is the meta getting nerfed and the bottom feeders getting buffed… sounds kinda like balance, how is this a bad thing?

Because all you did was reverse the roles. You know what might happen? Thief completely removes all roamers from the meta and Necro removes any heavy-boon class from play (especially Revenant).

How is that good? Better would have been to reduce power of the dominating classes and see what happens.

You know what else might happen? Thief and Necro nerfs later on with their “counters” getting buffs
Effectively doing nothing but cycling classes.

Im still failing to see a problem here… cycling meta SHOULD happen…. not the same crap every time. And this meta is horriffcally bad and boring anyway.
No class should stay meta forever, eles, and no class should be non-viable in any game mode ideally.
A lot of things might happen… but they would all be preferable to this garbage meta in my mind

The part that you aren’t getting is that they a are changing the current meta to another one that will be just as bad. And like you said no class should be non-viable but that’s exactly what will happen with the revenant.

I get what you are saying, i simply disagree. You are talking about one isolated matchup that does nothing in my mind but create a counter for a class that currently has none. How is that not viable?

Revenant does have counters; they simply aren’t used for one reason or another at the moment.
Now that those counters are more viable due to certain classes being nerfed, and the Revenant itself also receiving nerfs, those counters are also BUFFED.
All that will happen is that the roles are reversed and we’ll get an equally bad meta in the opposite direction.

We have a good chance of going back to a nuke meta where people are just bursted down or we could enter a condi meta. In either one, Thief will determine if a roamer is viable at all or not due to superior mobility, high spike damage, good sustained damage, and now with all the tools Daredevil has added (if you thought Power Revenant was bad…).
If you don’t see problems here, then I can only assume this is your first competitive game.

lol… wow disagreeing with some of you on the high horse is kinda fun.

Look you can spin it all you want but you are guessing, we dont even know the final notes yet. Either way, Rev needs a kick in the teeth, its FAR too OP, everyone in the game knows this.

As to the meta, this meta is destructive… anytime bunkers are the standard its bad. It creates boring matches, even less fun to play, and extremely unexciting times in a game trying to actually create itself as an e-sport. Any meta you could describe would be preferable than this one from almost any standpoint… literally any.

No, this is not my first, far from it.. sounds more like you just dont want your toys taken away.

The funny part to me is that they are nerfing the easier one to avoid in the DH. As to the rest, im looking forward to the changes and the Necros as the most OP meta in the history and meta, lol

sigh
You know, you’re not making a case as to whether or not buffing the crap and nerfing the top dramatically is actually a good idea and instead started rambling about Revenant being OP, which I would agree needed changes?
However, by nerfing the Revenant as harshly as they’re planning to do and buffing the counters so dramatically, you will risk making the class completely unviable (which you claim you think shouldn’t be that way, but are now saying it’s fine).

It’s not about me wanting Rev to be OP or not (I don’t), but I’ve been there before: my class simply cannot play at a decent level because it’s just getting destroyed the entire match or is completely useless in comparison to another class and there’s literally nothing I could do about it. Yes, you could argue Revenant did that to some classes, but all we needed were a few shaves and changes, and that’s fine, but then they’re also buffing the biggest counters a LOT.

Yea, yea, we don’t know the final notes (considering Anet’s past, these are probably all the changes and they’re mostly final and going to remain unchanged), but I do know what might potentially happen. I’ve seen what Thief does to weaker classes and I’m almost certain a lot of people wont enjoy their glassier specs completely demolished over and over again. So what do you think will happen when a class has trouble against the most mobile class in the game that also puts out really good damage?

To finish up: dramatically nerfing the top of the meta while also dramatically buffing the bottom (although Necro wasn’t really at the bottom at all) is a great way to end up in the same exact scenario in reverse and we’ve seen Anet do this multiple times already. It’s almost always a mistake.

Floplag.4032:

Varezenem.2813:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

What you just described is the meta getting nerfed and the bottom feeders getting buffed… sounds kinda like balance, how is this a bad thing?

Because all you did was reverse the roles. You know what might happen? Thief completely removes all roamers from the meta and Necro removes any heavy-boon class from play (especially Revenant).

How is that good? Better would have been to reduce power of the dominating classes and see what happens.

You know what else might happen? Thief and Necro nerfs later on with their “counters” getting buffs
Effectively doing nothing but cycling classes.

Im still failing to see a problem here… cycling meta SHOULD happen…. not the same crap every time. And this meta is horriffcally bad and boring anyway.
No class should stay meta forever, eles, and no class should be non-viable in any game mode ideally.
A lot of things might happen… but they would all be preferable to this garbage meta in my mind

The part that you aren’t getting is that they a are changing the current meta to another one that will be just as bad. And like you said no class should be non-viable but that’s exactly what will happen with the revenant.

I get what you are saying, i simply disagree. You are talking about one isolated matchup that does nothing in my mind but create a counter for a class that currently has none. How is that not viable?

Revenant does have counters; they simply aren’t used for one reason or another at the moment.
Now that those counters are more viable due to certain classes being nerfed, and the Revenant itself also receiving nerfs, those counters are also BUFFED.
All that will happen is that the roles are reversed and we’ll get an equally bad meta in the opposite direction.

We have a good chance of going back to a nuke meta where people are just bursted down or we could enter a condi meta. In either one, Thief will determine if a roamer is viable at all or not due to superior mobility, high spike damage, good sustained damage, and now with all the tools Daredevil has added (if you thought Power Revenant was bad…).
If you don’t see problems here, then I can only assume this is your first competitive game.

Laraley.7695:

Malchior.5732:

Laraley.7695:

Malchior.5732:

Laraley.7695:

Malchior.5732:

Mefiq.7039:

Thief dmg boost toughtless hmm cuz thief deals less dmg with backstab than Rev on autoattack

That hyperbole.
I don’t think I’ve ever hit that hard with an autoattack.
In fact, the only good burst move Revenant has right now is Hammer 2.

Because, you simply can’t. Every rev sword AA has way lower base damage and coeficient than backstab (assuming you hit back). The chain does take over 2 sec, but with quickness it’s obv faster. Imo, the damage on the AA is too high and there’s zero counterplay to revenant AAing you to death. So the nerf was justified.

However, buffing thief AA? So sword will be even faster than dagger? The damage is already high, and it was never the problem for thief.

And AA shouldn’t be burst damage.

The counter-play is the same as any other strong AA: Don’t stand still.

A Necro will annihilate you with Dagger autos, but obviously you won’t just sit there and take it.
Now, with Quickness, Rev Sword becomes pretty strong, but that’s also a good investment of energy that wont allow Riposting Shadows use and force a Legend swap.
With the new change, we’re now going to be forced into spamming a terrible projectile attack, but with more burst.
Either Sword will become trash or people will complain about 9k bursts every 4 seconds.

Yes, because you will outrun a revenant with superspeed.

That’s not the point, though. The point is that they shouldn’t have nerfed one thing on a class but buff it on another.

*They will only have superspeed for 10 seconds max and will completely susceptible to CC and Immobilize.

Anyway, yes, I agree. They’re just going to make Thieves into a problem.

10 sec max? That’s 5 AA chains, you’ll be long dead. Not to mention they can swap legends and get energy back after 9 seconds. Let’s not act like the damage wasn’t over the top. It is with most skills anyways.

You assume you’re standing next to him the entire time and have no answer and that he tracks you perfectly :L
Let’s also not act like they’re not full of weaknesses, like crappy heals (Infuse Light was the only one that allowed you to survive Bursts and Empowering Misery is okay, but just a much worse Consume Conditions), basically no cleanses, and few good Stun Breaks (funnily enough, by using Impossible Odds, you become incredibly vulnerable to CC since you can’t use Riposting Shadows, let alone in conjunction with other weapon skills).

Laraley.7695:

Malchior.5732:

Laraley.7695:

Malchior.5732:

Mefiq.7039:

Thief dmg boost toughtless hmm cuz thief deals less dmg with backstab than Rev on autoattack

That hyperbole.
I don’t think I’ve ever hit that hard with an autoattack.
In fact, the only good burst move Revenant has right now is Hammer 2.

Because, you simply can’t. Every rev sword AA has way lower base damage and coeficient than backstab (assuming you hit back). The chain does take over 2 sec, but with quickness it’s obv faster. Imo, the damage on the AA is too high and there’s zero counterplay to revenant AAing you to death. So the nerf was justified.

However, buffing thief AA? So sword will be even faster than dagger? The damage is already high, and it was never the problem for thief.

And AA shouldn’t be burst damage.

The counter-play is the same as any other strong AA: Don’t stand still.

A Necro will annihilate you with Dagger autos, but obviously you won’t just sit there and take it.
Now, with Quickness, Rev Sword becomes pretty strong, but that’s also a good investment of energy that wont allow Riposting Shadows use and force a Legend swap.
With the new change, we’re now going to be forced into spamming a terrible projectile attack, but with more burst.
Either Sword will become trash or people will complain about 9k bursts every 4 seconds.

Yes, because you will outrun a revenant with superspeed.

That’s not the point, though. The point is that they shouldn’t have nerfed one thing on a class but buff it on another.

*They will only have superspeed for 10 seconds max and will completely susceptible to CC and Immobilize.

Anyway, yes, I agree. They’re just going to make Thieves into a problem.

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

What you just described is the meta getting nerfed and the bottom feeders getting buffed… sounds kinda like balance, how is this a bad thing?

Because all you did was reverse the roles. You know what might happen? Thief completely removes all roamers from the meta and Necro removes any heavy-boon class from play (especially Revenant).

How is that good? Better would have been to reduce power of the dominating classes and see what happens.

You know what else might happen? Thief and Necro nerfs later on with their “counters” getting buffs
Effectively doing nothing but cycling classes.

Laraley.7695:

Malchior.5732:

Mefiq.7039:

Thief dmg boost toughtless hmm cuz thief deals less dmg with backstab than Rev on autoattack

That hyperbole.
I don’t think I’ve ever hit that hard with an autoattack.
In fact, the only good burst move Revenant has right now is Hammer 2.

Because, you simply can’t. Every rev sword AA has way lower base damage and coeficient than backstab (assuming you hit back). The chain does take over 2 sec, but with quickness it’s obv faster. Imo, the damage on the AA is too high and there’s zero counterplay to revenant AAing you to death. So the nerf was justified.

However, buffing thief AA? So sword will be even faster than dagger? The damage is already high, and it was never the problem for thief.

And AA shouldn’t be burst damage.

The counter-play is the same as any other strong AA: Don’t stand still.

A Necro will annihilate you with Dagger autos, but obviously you won’t just sit there and take it.
Now, with Quickness, Rev Sword becomes pretty strong, but that’s also a good investment of energy that wont allow Riposting Shadows use and force a Legend swap.
With the new change, we’re now going to be forced into spamming a terrible projectile attack, but with more burst.
Either Sword will become trash or people will complain about 9k bursts every 4 seconds.

Floplag.4032:

Necro is already 99% meta and i see 1-2 of them in virtually every team im on. This is especially true in the case of MM due its absurd amount of passive damage/heals from minions, and the upcoming changes are likely to make them gods.
That having been said i find it hard to cry for Revs… i played on in PvP/WvW because the classes i want to play arent good enough… and i could do better on a Rev with minimal knowledge than i could classes i knew well so… it needs to get knocked down a pegs or two.
Necro will be a hard counter to a Rev in many cases, but every class should have one… right now, you dont.

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

Unfortunately I’ve been here for a long while and if we get the short end of the stick, we’re likely to stay that way for a long time. The projectile from Sword 2 is just bad and increasing the number will help with landing a few, but overall it’ll be a poor ranged skill with a very recognizable animation.

Burtnik.5218:

Shiro has too much of a counterplay. What counterplay has healing turret? Withdraw? Healing signet? Except shelter that wont heal if interrupted (its a block skill after all) you can do so much about rest – rupt for 4s recharge.

Well, that’s why we have 2x Heals. Problem is when all the other heals are trash.

Honestly, I don’t mind if there’s counter-play to Shiro heal, BUT we NEED to have something to fall back on and with the up-coming Infusing Light nerf, I think this deserves a change now.
We’re now left without any good defense against big bursts/CC-chains and almost all of our heals are complete trash.

Burtnik.5218:

Yep, i made in pants about how scary precision strike wil be in actual fight instead of fooling around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AoRq8cdAlQ

It reminds me something… wasnt it guard scepter?! Never hits at 500+ distance, miss most of the time at mid range, experiences tracking issues. It only seems to work in melee – why it wasnt made melee then?

Kitten, its really so scary that i might uninstall. 2spooky4me.

Oh, yeah, if they don’t change the projectile somehow, it’s going to be pathetic.
I also can’t wait to insta-gib myself against reflects from an Ele or something.

Crinn.7864:

ReaperJr.5967:

Hardly. Seeing as you can comment this, I doubt there’s ever been an instance where you completely outplayed an enemy (revenant), and yet were unable to down him because of his passive procs saving him.

Except passives can be accounted for and played around. Heck you can play a opponents passive’s against them. (such a getting a decap on a engi by forcing his elixir S proc.)
You talk about skill, so tell me why can the attacker be skilled enough to account for the passives? Revenant’s passives proc at well defined points, if you can’t adjust to that maybe you aren’t as good as you think.

Besides Defensive passive don’t win on their own, they must be capitalized on, and played around. Bad players just get executed the moment their defensive proc ends.

Oh and if you really must know I play a necro.

Why can’t the Engi also take into account his passive proc and get into dumb situations and NOT get punished for it?

Knighthonor.4061:

Burtnik.5218:

Lets also note that outside of mesmer everyone else got buffed. Rev nerfs+everyone else buffed around?

Like superior boon corruption for necro? Diamond skin wiping 1 condi/sec (rev has no coverage with trash condi). As condi rev you cant really fight these classes anymore, you be destroyed and teabagged. Our only option vs condi that is resistance is gone basically.

Power damage? Thief will superior and the one that can actually focus and single out targets in teamfights, unlike rev that gets weaker the moment someone show up so i dont see a reason to take rev over thief now. Also worth of a note that thief already counter rev.

See you in season 3, maybe

unlike other classes, this class is very limited on choices. Lets buff other choices before we start to nerf everything to the ground. just saying.

new baseline weapons would be a start. also more baseline legends to pick from.

I think we should be realistic instead.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Malchior.5732:

Yea, not like that at all, where the spectators have basically nothing to talk about because it’s SO BORING.
Also, that’s a really nice assumption there how pvp will become like wvw without passives. How did you even come up with that?
Now, the point isn’t to remove ALL passive effects, but rather the passive “save-your-butt” skills that just activate when you’re in trouble.
They’re way too forgiving for big mistakes.

That doesn’t mean that getting bursted in 2 seconds is alright, but coordinated bursts shouldn’t just fail outright. Instead, the coordinated bursts shouldn’t be so spontaneous. There’s no reason to allow such big bursts from invisible, highly mobile enemies with great escape potential. They should be punished harshly for failing the burst, but shouldn’t be punished because their target just happens to have a ton of passive proc defenses that save them from lack of map awareness.

Yeah I know its boring. Maybe it isnt to specs but prob not.
It was easy actually. Its called a one push.
Which are the only passives that matter. Most of them arent about forgiveness for bad play, but to counter 2 second bursts, like I’ve already said.

Soo what are your proposed replacements for said passives you hate so much. Coordinated bursts shouldnt be so spontaneous. That makes no sense whatsoever. Lets just remove voip then, have the players all in separate rooms, oh and chat remove that as well. So sounds like youre a thief main, no surprise there. Except theyre not punished for failing the burst, hence another reason for passives. Lack of map awareness has nothing to do with trying to balance a game so that combat is interesting and doesnt last 10 minutes or 2 seconds.

Dont get me wrong, there are certain passives that are dumb and should be nerfed. To say that all passives should get removed, or only the get out of jail free cards, along with the defensive amulets shows a complete lack of understanding of how an mmo is supposed to work. Now if combo fields were more then secondary in nature or healers in this game were a thing, then by all means scrap every passive.

Anyway Im done arguing.

I know you said you’re done arguing, but it seems you didn’t even read my post at all and made a few things up. I suggest you re-read it.

Mefiq.7039:

Thief dmg boost toughtless hmm cuz thief deals less dmg with backstab than Rev on autoattack

That hyperbole.
I don’t think I’ve ever hit that hard with an autoattack.
In fact, the only good burst move Revenant has right now is Hammer 2.

You pretty much have to drop Salvation to try Mallyx/Ventari at all and go Herald/Corruption/Retribution.
You simply cannot handle the CC and even with that, you’ll be EXTREMELY weak to Signet Necros, especially after the next patch.
Salvation just doesn’t bring enough to the table for the Revenant; it’s way too focused on healing allies and the stance itself is also awful at keeping the Revenant alive. Aside from the Projectile destruction, the other skills are terrible and way too costly to use in an actual fight, let alone aiming them.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Malchior.5732:

Just because it’s an MMO, doesn’t mean we need passives for good gameplay that doesn’t end in seconds. The problem, however, is that these passives are just there to protect you from messing up and sometimes even reward you for doing stupid things.
Remember Vamp runes? People used them because it defended you from getting bursted down, regardless of your own skill. You went way too far and got punished accordingly? That’s fine, because even if you’re 1v5, the passives will keep you alive for a bit longer, potentially allowing an escape.

I think passives like that are there because of massive coordinated burst. A spectator that has no gw2 xp wont be able to follow along when everyone is getting downed 1 after 1. Its not fun for the players either. At least in this bunker meta that isnt true about spectators. With no passives pvp will become like wvw, pirateshipping until one side either grows balls or logs out.
I think we should wait until after the balance patch to see if theyre still broken or not. Most of them arent.

Yea, not like that at all, where the spectators have basically nothing to talk about because it’s SO BORING.
Also, that’s a really nice assumption there how pvp will become like wvw without passives. How did you even come up with that?
Now, the point isn’t to remove ALL passive effects, but rather the passive “save-your-butt” skills that just activate when you’re in trouble.
They’re way too forgiving for big mistakes.

That doesn’t mean that getting bursted in 2 seconds is alright, but coordinated bursts shouldn’t just fail outright. Instead, the coordinated bursts shouldn’t be so spontaneous. There’s no reason to allow such big bursts from invisible, highly mobile enemies with great escape potential. They should be punished harshly for failing the burst, but shouldn’t be punished because their target just happens to have a ton of passive proc defenses that save them from lack of map awareness.

Stand The Wall.6987:

I have no problem with passives. They buy more time and are annoying, but ultimately they just a stall for a few more secs. The big problem comes when you combine them with defensive trait lines and amulets. With most of these defensive amulets going out the window, the passives should come back in line. The biggest offenders that promote lots of regen are the biggest offenders that should get a bit of a nerf, but not by much. This is an mmo, not an fps. Fights should last for more then a few seconds. If you disagree maybe youre playing the wrong game.

Just because it’s an MMO, doesn’t mean we need passives for good gameplay that doesn’t end in seconds. The problem, however, is that these passives are just there to protect you from messing up and sometimes even reward you for doing stupid things.
Remember Vamp runes? People used them because it defended you from getting bursted down, regardless of your own skill. You went way too far and got punished accordingly? That’s fine, because even if you’re 1v5, the passives will keep you alive for a bit longer, potentially allowing an escape.