(edited by Malchior.5732)
Jalis is a meta for raids.
Does everything need to be perfectly viable everywhere? That is my question to you.
This is a bit disingenuous.
Jalis is “meta” for raids solely because Hammers is a slight DPS increase when you have all boons permanently.
That doesn’t mean the other skills are fine.
Literally every other skill is lacking in some way.
And yes, for Revenant, every legend needs to be viable everywhere in some way, shape, or form. Right now, Jalis is used for damage in Raids, not tanking or control. Ventari is only really used for projectile defense in certain PvE encounters and Mallyx is only used for the +10% stats in PvE or Banish Enchantment/Resistance spam in PvP.
Glint and Shiro, being the most well-rounded legends, are used in almost every build (at least one of them).
Due to the nature of Revenant’s utilities, this is an issue and it’s only going to get worse when more elite specs are announced if it’s not addressed.
(edited by Malchior.5732)
Condi revenant does not have viable dps in PvE, due to the weakness of torment vs too many mobs and bosses that stands still.
But how about a trait that works like this? Like a trait that gives you a stacking damage buff the longer you fight a mob with torment on them. Perhaps capped by their number of torment stacks.
Considering how low your DPS can be and still be able to kill the raid bosses, yea, the DPS is technically viable. Not good, but technically usable.
Opportune Extraction. Torment has increased damage to stationary foes by 100%. (equal damage to mobile foes)
3. Venom Enhancement. Cd reduced to 10. Poison also deals 33% more damage
Anything less than 100% would be a farce. And the icd for VE should be at most 5 seconds. Given the fact that it’s 30 right now and poison is as weak as it is without stacks, this trait(and frankly the other 2 it’s paired with) is a huge joke.
Also, almost all of your suggestions are entirely centered around PvP gameplay. If this is how GW2 balances their game…. I don’t even know….. I’m having a hard time thinking of something radical enough, beyond quitting, to express my outrage.
They either need to split the specs or just tell everyone that plays PvE to pretty much kitten off and bow down to a mode that takes 33% of the game.
Most of his changes are actually fine for PvE.
The poison trait at 5 seconds would be a bit much as it would equate to permanent poison application just from applying any sort of consistent Torment and would allow Mace to stack crazy amounts of it. 10 seconds would be fair in PvE, but also wouldn’t make it ridiculous if used in PvP. It’s just an Adept trait after all.
The Torment damage trait, even if it’s at 75%, would still make Torment stronger than a regular Bleed stack.
However, if it’s at a 100%, that removes any interesting aspect Torment may have had and just makes it clearly superior in every single way.
That could be an issue in PvP since it introduces a clearly superior condition that is almost as, if not more, spammable than Bleeds and removes the small counter-play it had.
Let me remind you that Condi Revenant does have viable DPS right now. It needs tweaks and some help, but it doesn’t need its traits and skills to be overblown for PvE. It should have high-ish DPS due to being a melee condi build, but also have glaring weaknesses; this allows it to function in all modes, but be punishable in PvP and WvW.
That being said, I agree that split balancing should happen, but these changes don’t really hurt Revenant much in PvE if they were to happen, but greatly improve a lot of aspects in PvP and WvW (that means 66% of the game if you want to treat it like that). These changes also don’t reflect anything Arenanet does or wants. They’re just suggestions.
(edited by Malchior.5732)
@Malchior:
Since you seem to have gone on to make suggestions in a similar direction, it feels like you’ve missed my point that the way to actually make that work in practise would be to make Unrelenting Assault and Precision Strike do more damage when you have multiple targets, to compensate for that damage being more spread out.
Simply making the Unrelenting Assault strikes cleave is a simple and excellent idea that I wish I’d thought up myself. Leave it as it is otherwise – if you have a single target, it does what it does now. If you have multiple targets but they’re spread out, then it’s a bit undesirable. If you have multiple targets bunched up… ouch.
Well, the reason I made the suggestion that way was because Precision Strike and Unrelenting Assault currently have a similar role: high damage against a single target, but get “weaker” in groups.
If we flip them both, we’ll end up with two skills having a similar role again. My idea was to give them both some uses regardless of the situation.
Precision Strike would be higher damage in a 1v1 and Unrelenting Assault would be relegated to closing gaps and doing decent damage. However, when in a team fight, Precision Strike is relegated to ranged pressure (or waiting for someone to get singled out) and Unrelenting Assault would force the group to disperse or be potentially fatal for multiple enemies. For UA, I also thought a reduction in number of hits was a good idea because it would allow the skill to be used much more often by allowing a reduction in costs and/or cast time while increasing its strength and evade frames depending on the number of enemies. As is, UA can fail for a lot of reasons and I’d like it to be a lot more reliable at its job (which is a bit of an issue with a lot of Revenant skills right now). It would also open up an interesting combo with Axe 5 or potentially Taunt if Jalis gets polished up.
This would mean that the sword revenant has a good ability to knock someone down in a 1v1, but in a teamfight its role switches to pressuring the enemy team as a whole rather than focusing a single target (you know, like how the real Shiro pressured the entire party).
That would be fine, but since the individual hits are actually kinda weak, you end up not doing too much. It doesn’t help that Anet told us that they want Sword to “single out” enemies and it just doesn’t do that.
What ends up happening is that you feel a lot more useless when you have more than a single target.
I’ve been thinking about how Sword could be changed and maybe it could have a slight “role” change? What I mean is, have Precision Strike as is, but improve the projectile speed and well, somehow not target boxes and houses and such. I know that’s not a terribly simple fix, but somehow it needs to happen. This could be the single target burst skill, but it gets its damage spread out when more enemies shows up and reverts to more of a pressure skills. It has an obvious animation, it chills, it has clear counters, etc.
Potentially needs damage lowered a tad if it becomes more consistent and reliable.
Then make Unrelenting Assault the opposite: it gets stronger the more targets appear, but is weaker in a 1v1.
Instead of 5/7 slashes on a single person, it will just do a single slash per target (up to 5 targets), but now it’ll have a nice cleaving arc, enough to punish clumped-up enemies and it should have much higher damage per swing and potentially a lower cost (which includes its cast time maybe).
It’ll still be good in 1v1 due to being a strong gap closer with good damage and have an evade attached to it with maybe a lower cool down, but now, if more targets show up and they don’t disperse (which will then make them easier to separate and spike down), they could potentially be hit multiple times (again, the cleaving arc should be decently large) for quite a bit of damage along with higher amounts of evade frames. It’ll still be quite a stylish skill too.
Just a thought. I think I’ll make my own “rework” thread sometime, not to compete with Burtnik or anything (I think a lot of these ideas are really good and hopefully do get implemented), but I also wanna throw in my own, mostly for fun.
Yea, Glint isn’t necessary. Herald, however, is needed in pretty much every build, although that’s an issue that isn’t unique to Revenant right now.
Wow lots of QQ regarding Rev’s strong hammer skills. Have you seen Guardians Hammer skills? No nerf or buff and not that good. Only AA is good in PVE. Slow animations on #3 and #4. Long CD on #3 and #4. Only #2 is a blast finisher wih meh range and bad uphill/downhill slope use. Very slow AA chain, bad and mixed up hammer traits. Very outdated hammer skills this time of HoT.
We are not complaining tho, just wanted to show you that your Rev Hammer skills are still good even with the nerf.
SMH
/thread
Your skills are functional for the most part and it does have some unique aspects that actually made it usable in PvP a while back before HoT (and Hammer Guard is good DPS in Raids).
However, I think comparing these two weapons isn’t a terribly great idea. One is meleeland the other is a ranged weapon. The latter is absolutely awful at kiting, has bad DPS, and has three skills that barely work on slopes or walls. The only reason to take Hammer is because it’s our only ranged option or because you want to spam CoR safely behind your zerg (aka your only ranged option).
I prefer the former change to Cruel Repercussions personally, mostly because we don’t really have a lot of single big hits and don’t want to encourage more CoR nukes.
Daggers doesnt siphol heal. That would be definitely too much. I just left them for damage, thats about it. Atm this skill heal for 6,5k if all daggers are procced but keep in mind that we are affected by poison with basically no way to remove it.
Demonic defiance could definitely add self conditions but tbh.. i was never feeling that they are any good outside of the blind ofc. With the amount of reapers in pvp tho i wouldnt worry too much about conditions or reliance on allies in general..
As for the Jalis himself.. im thinking what to do with vengeful hmmers. I dont think they want to have 2 upkeep skills on one legend and i know i want rite to become an upkeep skill with increased “a bit” reduction to power damage (it also balance the elite skills itself – 2 upkeep, 2 on use). Overall i changed him to selfish legend for balance purposes. I feel that Glint and Ventari are enough of a support and spreading stability to allies is stepping on a guardian job.
Oh, no siphon? That’d be fine then. I thought you were making them heal for 6.5k + siphoning. That’d be crazy.
The reason I feel we need self-conditions is because the current Reapers and condition builds will cycle out at some point. It’s kinda reliant on what’s popular and also much less potentially useful in other areas. For example, assuming you can give yourself Blind, you now have an amazing skill at clearing out trash mobs or applying other conditions. Doesn’t have to be just the old Soft CC we used to have; they can be different.
I think it’d be good to have Jalis apply AoE Stability; it’s a job that kinda forces Guardians and this way you could have more classes that can do that job while also bringing different tools. Core Revenant in-general lacks team support, although that’s mostly because Ventari is just kinda lacking.
Speaking of which, Druid does the healer role so much better, but also buffs the team’s damage with multiple different effects. Ventari should do something more than just healing, otherwise I don’t think anyone will ever pick it in PvE.
EDIT @ killahmayne:
I think most of the Invocation line is kinda lacking actually. Sure, it has some decent ways to maintain Fury, but a lot of the traits force you to swap constantly instead of managing energy to have that Fury. The GMs, aside from Roiling Mists, are also really bad and difficult to manage.
(edited by Malchior.5732)
Overall, I like your changes.
I think maybe your version of Enchanted Daggers is a bit too much though. A 6.5k Heal with another big potential Heal might be a bit too much. Maybe a 4k-5k Heal or lowering the siphon a tad bit more.
I just don’t think it should out-do Jalis.
Aside from that, my only other criticism is in regards to Mallyx: we ain’t got any self-conditions anymore!
I like all the changes, but that functionality is still missing and relies on having team mates affected by conditions. Maybe we could have a trait like Master of Corruption that gives us self-conditions, but also some sort of benefit? Demonic Defiance comes to mind or maybe that EtD-only trait you were planning on (i.e. using demon skills now applies conditions on yourself, but EtD pulses Resistance on you).
Changes are pretty good so far though; hope you can share your thoughts for Jalis soon.
How about ignoring Stability on a big ICD? :^)
I actually don’t know what it could do. Maybe if a CC fails, it’ll CC them one more time. Still does what it does now, but it’ll actually work and could actually work on break bars.
So one of the few counters to a non interuptable skill should be removed…
(Can only be interupted in the first 0.5 sec of the cast an going stealth makes it end)
It’s more like the skill doesn’t function properly. I wouldn’t call that counter-play. Also, it has a 0.75s cast time, not 0.5s.
That being said, it shouldn’t ignore Slow, it just shouldn’t break when you have it.
So essentially:
- Perma Fury
- More Quickness out of Chronos
- +150 Ferocity for team
- Decent damage
Protection is mostly covered by Hammer Guard and the Revenant drops a good chunk of DPS to CC (Staff is the only really good access of CC). Regardless, I don’t think Rev is trash, but these team comps wouldn’t fall apart if the Revenant was missing or replaced(this group DID kill Sabetha with 6 people after all).
Now, if Herald didn’t exist, THEN I’d say Revenant was trash. No permanent team-wide boons, no facet of nature, and the DPS simply isn’t high enough compared to Thief and Ele, of which the latter can also provide a ton of support (and pull off a better healer too…) while doing a ton of damage.
It’s all about Fury. It’s not such a common boon for long fights as it might seem.
Outside of Facet of Darkness, tiger pets are probably the only reliable source of long lasting AoE Fury so, for a 10 man setup, unless you run a Druid or a combination of classes that can provide enough small doses of Fury (PS running FGJ instead of signet + DH with FMW + trickery DD, for example) in the actual subgroup, Fury upkeep might easily become a serious problem.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Persisting_Flames
That used to be more than enough for 5 people.
Now, I’m not saying being a Furybot isn’t a fine job for a Herald, but it’s not irreplaceable, it’s just an easier (aka braindead) job for us.
I always hate traits like this, but I REALLY hate Soothing Bastion and any other traits that interrupt skills. I don’t care how powerful the auto-proc is, I HATE it.
So I feel like Soothing Bastion should do something different. I feel like Life Siphon is a Shiro thing and Resistance is kinda Mallyx’s territory. Instead, it could increase the strength of Regen or give people a small Regen when you apply Protection or something.
Or make the boon duration increase actually work you can even increase it to 3 sec.
Aha, I completely forgot it even did that (maybe because it’s broken and doesn’t do anything at all!).
I think a boon duration increase of a couple seconds is just way too weak for a GM trait, I mean, we get a +15% increase just by taking the Herald line and then we can get a +50% increase for activating a facet.
I do not agree and there is a reason :p runes of the revenant 2 seconds resistance (and similar effects). Using envoy after the proc would makes it last for 5 seconds. It’s weak for long duration boons but it’s really strong on short duration ones.
Hmm, that’s true.
It’s kinda only good for Stab, Resistance, and Quickness, but I guess that’s kinda the point.
I always hate traits like this, but I REALLY hate Soothing Bastion and any other traits that interrupt skills. I don’t care how powerful the auto-proc is, I HATE it.
So I feel like Soothing Bastion should do something different. I feel like Life Siphon is a Shiro thing and Resistance is kinda Mallyx’s territory. Instead, it could increase the strength of Regen or give people a small Regen when you apply Protection or something.
Or make the boon duration increase actually work you can even increase it to 3 sec.
Aha, I completely forgot it even did that (maybe because it’s broken and doesn’t do anything at all!).
I think a boon duration increase of a couple seconds is just way too weak for a GM trait, I mean, we get a +15% increase just by taking the Herald line and then we can get a +50% increase for activating a facet.
I always hate traits like this, but I REALLY hate Soothing Bastion and any other traits that interrupt skills. I don’t care how powerful the auto-proc is, I HATE it.
So I feel like Soothing Bastion should do something different. I feel like Life Siphon is a Shiro thing and Resistance is kinda Mallyx’s territory. Instead, it could increase the strength of Regen or give people a small Regen when you apply Protection or something.
I’ll also just point out it’s common to find Revs in WvW getting AA’s to hit for almost the same damage as most berserker DH’s True Shots due to their ample and substantive damage modifiers.
I ran Invocation/Devastation/Herald with full Zojja’s. My Hammer autos definitely weren’t hitting for True Shot damage.
I think I was averaging more around 2k-3k and more rarely I’d hit 4k.
@Infusion:
4. Perma Fury IS pretty nice, albeit not unreplaceable. Used to be done by Eles before. Berserker’s is still better to run than Valkyrie’s for the most part.
5. That trait doesn’t actually give much Might.
6. It’s at most an extra 400 toughness, which is nice, but doesn’t make a big difference against high damage attacks.
7. IIRC, they’re both full damage and the Rev is running Jalis/Glint. Also, Anet changed Rev Sword because we relied too much on Autos, but Hammer Guard seems fine to them (as do Thief Dagger autos)? It’s weird.
7b. Arguable that Eles should be included there because unlike Thieves, they have a lot more support, but they outdamage everyone, including Thieves.
it is
a very hard profession to masterplayable by epileptics
welcome to balance! where things are brought in line with the rest of the game! such wow!
Oh, right.
It’s not like PS Warrior or Staff Ele weren’t pathetically easy to play either. Nah, those didn’t just have to press 1-3 buttons for almost max efficiency. Lets just ignore those.
But you probably mean PvP, because that’s all anyone cares about on the forums in seems. In that case, I’d argue that there are other things that are pretty easy to play too, but have fewer counters. Ultimately, you’d get crushed if you played haphazardly with Power Revenant. In fact, they mostly just used Condi Revs in tournaments and while I wouldn’t say those are difficult to play (all they do is rely on boons like Resistance and Stab for defense after all), I don’t think your average forum warrior would pull it off against good teams (in contrast to a lot of other classes in the past).
Whats with this sword 2 qq? I play against revs and it seems to be landing just fine. Their sustain is still over the top as well.
The projectiles are really inconsistent.
They randomly target whatever they feel like, including pets, minions, illusions, boxes, houses, and other random objects.
Not to mention that they can completely miss players if they’re jumping around, running perpendicular to you, or going back and forth.
Our sustain is pretty reliant on just Shield and the opponent screwing up and healing us, so I’d argue you just have to pay attention to beat a Power Revenant. Bringing anti-Block skills would help a lot too since disrupting Shield 5 is almost always a death sentence.
If you’re fighting a Condi Rev (it’s more of a hybrid really), then you’re best bet is boon stripping or big damage spikes (no Glint to fall back on or no Shiro for strong Stun Breaks/Mobility).
The only weird Torment I’ve run into so far is mace-Revenant, which is actually hilarious because the easiest way to up your damage is walk backwards.
Except in Raids, where it matters most.
It’s kinda inconsistent there and Sabetha barely moves at all (I don’t know if her Shadowsteps even count).Being a melee condi spec, you’d think it’d be pretty strong, but it’s kinda average.
Also, Revenant is the only class that uses Torment as its primary damage-dealing condition, so it being “fine” is debatable.In contrast, the vale guardian moves a lot, especially in phase 3. Gorseval also moves quite a bit.
Going back to inconsistency: In Phase 1 of VG, you can make him mostly stand still and in every split, the Red Guardian ideally doesn’t move at all.
Gorseval also doesn’t move at all during Updrafts or when he’s slamming the ground.
The only weird Torment I’ve run into so far is mace-Revenant, which is actually hilarious because the easiest way to up your damage is walk backwards.
Except in Raids, where it matters most.
It’s kinda inconsistent there and Sabetha barely moves at all (I don’t know if her Shadowsteps even count).
Being a melee condi spec, you’d think it’d be pretty strong, but it’s kinda average.
Also, Revenant is the only class that uses Torment as its primary damage-dealing condition, so it being “fine” is debatable.
So when comparing the DPS of both classes, are you assuming full-damage Torment or the non-moving damage? Or an average?
Because even in the raids, there are periods of time where all of the bosses just sit there and don’t move, especially Sabetha.
Condi rev does about the same dps as condi ranger.
How much is that exactly?
I get that the CoR thing is a bug, but really, it’s made WvW a far better place. Yes sitting in the middle of a zerg and whacking people at 1200 range for enormous damage numbers every 4 seconds is a very relaxing way to play, but it’s also just perpetuating the horrible pirate ship meta. Anet need to clamp down on this sort of thing if they have any interest in making this game mode enjoyable and, more importantly, reputable in wider gaming circles.
Then change CoR to:
1. Not to be so spammable
2. Distribute the damage between the other skills
3. Change Cruel Repercussions because it’s way too punishing
4. Not be the sole reason to use Hammer (this includes making Phase Smash and Drop the Hammer moves that allow you to actually kite instead of sitting back at 1200 range and becoming useless once the gap is closed, this is why Hammer is so bad in PvP, and the DPS/Utility is too low for PvE)
This bug “fixes” the problem, but makes the skill completely broken. If a single other person is using the skill at the same time as you, you’re useless. That’s the opposite of what should happen in an MMO.
If you wanted to replicate a real PvP scenario you wouldn’t run Staff.
Fixed that for you, don’t worry.
I don’t see why there’d be a specific cut-off at 5K damage, but to be honest, that seems like a pretty decent number. And yes, this is of course from a WvW perspective.
Because most hard-hitting skills already do ~8k (and apparently that’s too high). In fact, I rarely hit over that in WvW with Rev Hammer, let alone PvP.
I don’t even use Hammer in PvE unless I want to cleave pocket raptors.
Not that anything even comes close to comparing to Ele Staff anyway.
Ele staff only does high damage if the target is standing there eating it, in which case they deserve it. Damage goes down a lot vs a moving target
I don’t think I said it was good on everything, but rather pointing out that if we’re talking “ranged damage”, nothing compares.
Hell, even CoR tends to miss some moving targets (particularly if they run perpendicular to you) and don’t even mention the terrain issues.
Depending on culture, demons aren’t even always a bad thing. If Mallyx bothers you, then I think there’s a lot more in this game that would “cause issues” in your religion. There’s nothing to be done.
If you’re getting one-shot by a single skill at 1200 range then I will fully support your complaint. Regardless of armor level, any skill being able to hit a target for substantially more than their base health is absurd. How anyone could argue against that is beyond me (and yes, that extends to True Shot, Kill Shot and Gun Flame as well, although they’re substantially less problematic by virtue of being reflectable).
I understand that it would put revenant hammer in line with the damage-focused ranged weapons that predate HoT.
So, no single skill should deal more than ~5k?
Well, assuming the balance is split between PvE and PvP, then sure. Although you would also need to drop the sustain and tanking potential considerably.
Otherwise, there are tons of skills that do way above 5k, of which, almost every class has access to.
Speaking of which, if we’re speaking about ranged damage, Revenant Hammer actually has pretty poor DPS. Not that anything even comes close to Ele Staff anyway. Although you said “damage-focused” ranged weapons, so even then, all Rev Hammer has is CoR spam. Ranger Longbow has more utility, better kiting, and still has decent damage. Considering that, why does Revenant Hammer have no kiting potential and a really bad CC? The only upside is the damage (I would gladly trade some of that damage for improvements on the other skills, but the DPS is still terrible).
Completely agree that everything is viable in open-world. However that doesn’t mean that the effectiveness of weapons in open-world is not important, if only because the devs continue to refuse to split skills along PvE/PvP.
“Hammer works fantastically in open-world” is relevant to discussion of hammer game-wide because the devs are balancing for all game types here. They probably aren’t going to buff hammer in general because it would be too strong in open-world. Because it’s very strong in open-world. So PvP hammer suffers to keep PvE hammer balanced, and it’s “tough luck” for the PvP players.
I wish the higher-ups would just allocate the resources for splitting the skills between modes, but honestly I don’t ever see that happening.
Uh, Hammer is crap in both PvP AND instanced content (aka PvE).
You literally only take it because it’s ranged cleave and does good spike damage with CoR (but TERRIBLE DPS), which is good for Pocket Raptors and other trash.
I wouldn’t really say open world needs to be balanced. Literally anything is viable.
I completely agree. Fact of the matter is it’d come down to nerfing the coefficient by like 50%, though, which obviously people would get very upset about.
People would be upset because that’s not balancing, it’s simply an axe job.
In actual balance everything is worth a value. So lets say, theoretically, a weapon is supposed to have X amount of value. Things like DPS/CC/Heals/etc all have their own values as well that make up that total weapon value. If you reduce the damage on an ability by 50% that value number dramatically shifts downward and thus, balance wise, you have to give that number elsewhere on the weapon.
Flip the damage coefficients on long and close range, then (50% reduction at end, double damage point-blank). As-is the Rev Hammer even without CoR is one of the best ranged options in the game.
Oh, so that’s why Hammer is only really used in WvW (to spam with) and open world PvE?
I’d take Ranger Longbow over Rev hammer. Far more utility, actual kiting, keeps targets at range, and can still do good damage.
Before you respond: Hammer #3 is nothing more than a stalling tool. It doesn’t actually help very much. It’s slow, has a long animation, and doesn’t help keep targets away. Hammer #4 is just a bit too slow. Hammer #5 is complete trash.
So really, the only true reason to pick Hammer is CoR spam or because you’re fighting something that demands range.
Overall, the PvE additions were pretty good. Not much wrong there.
Where I’ll complain is the Balance portion:
- Changing Revenant Sword to focus less on Autos is a great idea, but the execution was bad, or rather, unfinished. If the Sword is to take a role of “singling out” targets, it simply can’t have two skills that target different things uncontrollably. Precision Strike and Unrelenting Assault need to be made into single-target skills for this to work properly. Currently, Sword loses a lot of damage if we get a single extra target. That includes Ranger pets, Mesmer illusions, Necro minions, another player, or even boxes, houses, and other objects!
While on the topic of Sword, Shackling Wave is too expensive to be useful. It needs to be dropped to at least 10.
Grasping Shadow is an interesting idea, but its range is way too small and it just isn’t terribly useful in any realistic scenario. Consider making it teleport a target with you at range.
I.E. Revenant uses Grasping Shadow from say 600 units away, teleports to their target, pulls them down, and then teleports back to the original location.
It would be far more useful for picking off targets.
- You nerfed Infuse Light again and Crystal Hibernation/Soothing Bastion, which is fine, but our other Heal skills are really lacking. Soothing Stone cleanses AFTER healing, which makes it super weak against Poison even though it’s one of our only cleanses. Ventari has trouble keeping the player alive because all the bonuses only affect allies, all the skills cost a ton of energy, and he has no Stun Breaker. Enchanted Daggers can be reflected and are only good if you’ve got good offensive pressure; more of a DPS increase than a heal, which I understand is intended, but Empowering Misery is just a worse Consume Conditions in almost every single way possible and is the only “decent” heal after Infuse Light.
We have such a big over-reliance on Infuse Light and Shield (aka Herald) because of this. Core Revenant has really bad healing options.
- Jalis, Ventari, and Mallyx issues were never addressed or even acknowledged (so many issues that I think it’s better to just go read the Revenant section).
Jalis has like one good skill (which breaks on terrain), Ventari is way too expensive, and Mallyx (and the Corruption line) doesn’t know if he wants to hoard conditions or not.
- Hammer is terrible at kiting or keeping enemies at range. All it really has going for it is CoR spam. I suggest you move the damage from the third hit of CoR and give it to Phase Smash and Drop the Hammer. Along with that, Phase Smash should be an attack and then a backwards roll (like Withdraw) while Drop the Hammer should have its cast time reduced to ~3/4s or 1s and could potentially cause a knock*back* instead.
Field of the Mists should also be just a tad faster.
This will make Hammer much better as a ranged weapon and not so dependent on CoR, which also wont be hitting for so much.
- Unwavering Avoidance didn’t really deserve the ICD since Enhanced Bulwark is what makes it so powerful. The latter also doesn’t really “fit” with the Herald line anyway. Glint doesn’t have any Stability which means that taking Enhanced Bulwark forces the Revenant to take either Retribution or Jalis (and Inspiring Reinforcements is AWFUL) to have the trait actually do anything useful.
Nah, that would make Phase Smash actually useful :^)
I would love it if Phase Smash did that. Drop the Hammer could just have its cast time reduced to 1s or 3/4s as the animation is already a giant, hard-to-miss sign and that could be fine. Alternatively, Drop the Hammer could be changed into a knockback along with a cast time reduction.
If you put it into a minor trait then anyone going for corruption line without picking up Mallyx for whatever reason will end up with one trait less. We have similiar situation in salvation atm with healing power conversation to toughness trait. These traits should be optional. No doubt that resistance would become meta in pvp tho but at same time it will be useless in pve. Thats so far how it look like, blanked points are tbd.
- Minor
Opportune Extraction – Torment has increased damage to stationary foes by 100%. (equal damage to mobile foes)
Something needed for pve that we was supposed to get in place of current boon strip on launch.
- Adept
1. Demonic Defiance – Reduced duration of resistance to 1 second. Removed icd
2. Replenishing Despair – Removed icd, reduced healing to ~80
3. Venom Enhancement – Cd reduced to 10. Poison also deals 33% more damage
- Master
1. Frigid Precision -
- GM
1. Maniacal Persistence – Embrace the Darkness pulses resistance (1s) every second.
2. Pulsating Pestilence -
- Mallyx. Stance focused on manipulating conditions and being highly resistant to them. Weakness; Hard cc, power damage, focus.
1. Empowering Misery – In addition to current heal rev also gains 3 seconds of resistance (applied before healing)
2. Pain Absorption –
3. Banish Enchantment – Increased energy cost to 25If it still remain overpowered next change would be to reduce base duration of confusion/reduced confusion stacks to 2.
4. Embrace the Darkness – Also copy conditions to nearby foes every second. Duration of copied conditions last 3 sec base. Increased energy cost to -8
Overpowered?
I think those changes are fine honestly.
Few notes:
- I didn’t really make my suggestion too clear: Have the pulsing resistance trait + the Torment duration we already have. It’s a lot for a Minor trait, but Power builds would still need to jump through a few hoops to get it and it frees up the GM traits.
- The equal damage on Torment thing should maybe be PvE-only? Keep the boon strip we have and add that damage to it. The problem might arise that a Revenant’s Torment no longer has any inherent counter-play in PvP. Yea, I realize that standing still in PvP isn’t always a great idea anyway, but if you have Torment on you, you have the option of standing still to minimize damage. Adding that trait removes that concept and just makes it a superior Bleed. Could be 75% in PvP and 100% in PvE maybe.
Otherwise, I think this is pretty good so far.
Also, the Hammer CoR issues seems like it’s going to be resolved soon. Gaile just confirmed that the single hit every 0.5 seconds is a bug. I still think they should nerf the damage a bit on CoR and improve 3 and 5 for kiting while moving some of the damage to them as well. Make them more worthwhile to use.
The problem is that everything works fine in open world PvE. It’s not convincing if you or someone says that something is strong enough there.
Hammer is CLEARLY struggling in instanced content and PvP, both modes that require more fine-tuning than open world PvE or WvW.
And your proof that complainers don’t have knowledge of overall class direction?
Well, unless any of you are Anet devs working on class conception and balance, I think I got that one nailed buddy. If all your assumptions about how the changes will impact the class are based on what you think will happen in other class changes and the game overall, you’re going to have a tough go at it.
Don’t get me wrong; I would LOVE to see a roadmap on how this class will develop over time to understand the WHY of these last changes, but Anet doesn’t work that way.
If you don’t have an argument, you can just say so.
EDIT: I don’t know if you think assumptions are inherently bad, but I can make guesses based on what I know about the classes, and the combat, and have an idea of what it would be like. That doesn’t mean it will be like that, but there’s a chance it will.
If I assume Enhanced Bulwark + Unwavering Avoidance is changed and no longer gives Stability, then that would open up Revenant to a lot more CC in every build. This isn’t just a blind guess. It’s a very likely possibility.
Now, if I assume that change happens, but then I also assume that we buff up our Stun Break options, then there’s a chance, a likely one, that Revenant will still have a weakness to CC in most builds, but it wont be covered as easily, nor in such a braindead manner, while also allowing the Revenant some play.
These are ideas and suggestions using assumptions. Will Anet do them? Well, history shows that they do listen to feedback every so often. It also shows as that they can make good balance patches and smart decisions.
So, it’s in my best interest, if I want this class and this game to get better, to complain and suggest.
I don’t need to have a roadmap to see their development plan. Their ideas obviously change over item. It’s not an absolute. I also don’t need to know the future to know that these last few changes were short-sighted. They want Sword to “single out targets”, but left Sword 2 and 3 in a state where singling out someone from a crowd is literally impossible. It’s a good concept, but their execution failed to consider the variables. Now we’re left with a half-functional weapon that works sometimes and sometimes it doesn’t.
That isn’t the most accurate example, I guess. So lets take Thief Auto-attacks then.
Is it a good change or not? Well, I don’t need to predict the future here either.
It’s a quick, easy bandaid “fix” to a problem in the old metagame or at best, a very dumb way of fixing the underlying Thief issues in PvE.
tl;dr
I don’t need to know the future to make smart guesses. I don’t need to stop complaining about Anet’s bad decisions. I don’t need to know their future plans to know they’re bad decisions.
(edited by Malchior.5732)
I think that change might make Maniacal Persistence too necessary of a GM though, or at least the other options need to be pretty strong to make you pick them at all.
Theres no other way to make it balanced tho. As i said baseline pulsing resistance would be too strong in power builds.. thats what i think at least. In general im up for traits being optional rather than forced. It could ofc be baseline if it wont end up too op but i doubt it ever happen with current balancing team.
Without balance split between modes some traits will also end up being stronger than the other ones tho. Burn on elite would be picked mostly in pve as a example. As for pulsating.. i have no idea what to do with it yet but 2 traits about the same elite skill seems odd to me (and it would result in 3 Mallyx traits total)
Power builds would still need to run Corruption for the perma-Resistence while in EtD (not to mention having to always activate EtD) so there’s that.
Pulsating Pestilence could be changed so that all Conditions on you are pulsed once when you activate a Stance skill on an ICD? I’m kinda stumped on this trait. Pulsing resistance would just be too good to give up in PvP and PvE would definitely prefer Diabolical Inferno.
Could the pulsing Resistance on EtD maybe be pushed into the GM Minor slot? Yea, that’s a pretty powerful Minor, but it does free up the other traits so the competition isn’t as fierce and Power builds would still need to take Corruption, run Mallyx, and pop EtD without the safety net of Perma-Stab.
Condi Mallyx in PvE is obviously usable, but far from optimal.
Torment is simply too inconsistent for instanced content. It’s fine for regular mobs, but then again, almost everything is.
You can use Mallyx in a Power build and use Unyielding Anguish for a Dark field and pulsing damage while Embrace the Darkness will increase your stats by 10%.
You’ll find that it does less damage than Shiro/Glint or Shiro (or Glint)/Jalis in longer fights, but does slightly better in short fights (<30 seconds). Assuming you only use EtD and your highest damage moves, of course.
For Ventari, you just get out-done by Druids and Tempests right now. He can keep people topped off, but it’s a lot of extra work and you can’t really fully heal an entire group as easily as the other two classes. You could still go for it if you only want to play in the open world, but it’s again, far from optimal.
In case of Mallyx not sure how it goes with you but i would personally bring him back to bwe2 glory with little modifications. Demonic defiant reduced to 1sec resistance and icd removed and change maniacal persistance to pulse resistance in embrance the darkness. A bit trait dependent but without them power revs would have it way easy to be nearly immune to condi. Thats something i have in my notes to rev rework but its not ready to be revealed just yet.. What you think either way? And no, stacking resistance with pain absord wont be possible anymore – in my notes at least.
That’d be awesome. Would love to play BWE2 Mallyx again.
I think that change might make Maniacal Persistence too necessary of a GM though, or at least the other options need to be pretty strong to make you pick them at all.
I like the idea of modifying Embrace the Darkness though. Maybe have Maniacal Persistence pulse Resistance for the Revenant while using EtD, while Pulsating Pestilence could maybe be a lot more aggressive and do something like increasing the damage enemies take from conditions by a certain amount, but also increasing the damage you take (this might be too much of a drawback in post-HoT, although it would make PvE Condi Rev more viable). The idea is to have a GM that helps you against Conditions (more of a mid-range/defensive option), another applies to every other legend (we want Corruption to be useful for every Legend in some way), and the last one could be for a full glass cannon Condition build.
Something like that would be interesting. I have wilder ideas, but they’re way too unrealistic this far into the Revenant’s development.
As long as Mallyx remains really weak to CC and is cursed to not have a proper ranged weapon, I think giving him powerful skills is justified, at least to a certain degree.
I prefer Jalis to stay boonless with unique buffs so we can benefit from protection shared by other classes. After all core rev is not supposed to be build around boons unlike herald which was supposed to alter playstyle. I gave some weeks ago suggestion to Enhanced Bulwark to improve protection by up to 40% like ele trait as it a source of all the problems with stab on dodge.. but lets look how it turned out.
I think the only legend that should be without stunbreaks is Mallyx that should be nearly immune to conditions as tradeoff. Decent system would be to make x legend being strong at x thing but being weak to x thing so players can work around it and exploit our weakness. Say Jalis being extremely resistant to power damage and hard cc but weak to soft cc and conditions in general.
That’d be great too.
I just want Mallyx to be that all-out, offensive beast. A high-risk, high-reward Condition Legend (or alternatively a more midrange-type deal, but with far better defense against Conditions than the others) while Jalis can be that reliable, hard-to-take down wall, but can succumb to soft-CC and Condi-bombs.In your opinion, after removing enhanced bulwark, how strong would it be to give purifying essence an AoE stunbreak and reducing the energy cost to 25?
Assuming the Stun Break is around the Tablet, I think that would be more than fair (even if it was player + Tablet, it’d be fair).
1. Needs to be aimed and the location of the tablet needs to be considered constantly.
2. 25 Energy isn’t cheap.
3. You either save it for Condition Cleansing or for Stun breaking (or both). There’s a clear opportunity cost here, but also helps save you from getting Fear-chained by a Condi Necro or something.
I think it would be fine. At worst, and I really don’t think it’d be necessary, increase the Cooldown a tad.
I prefer Jalis to stay boonless with unique buffs so we can benefit from protection shared by other classes. After all core rev is not supposed to be build around boons unlike herald which was supposed to alter playstyle. I gave some weeks ago suggestion to Enhanced Bulwark to improve protection by up to 40% like ele trait as it a source of all the problems with stab on dodge.. but lets look how it turned out.
I think the only legend that should be without stunbreaks is Mallyx that should be nearly immune to conditions as tradeoff. Decent system would be to make x legend being strong at x thing but being weak to x thing so players can work around it and exploit our weakness. Say Jalis being extremely resistant to power damage and hard cc but weak to soft cc and conditions in general.
That’d be great too.
I just want Mallyx to be that all-out, offensive beast. A high-risk, high-reward Condition Legend (or alternatively a more midrange-type deal, but with far better defense against Conditions than the others) while Jalis can be that reliable, hard-to-take down wall, but can succumb to soft-CC and Condi-bombs.
I think they also have to consider that Ventari has no Stun Breakers. That should be included when balancing his healing/cleansing. If you’re forced to swap for Defense, you have to sacrifice the Tablet and all of its sustain/defense.
No doubt but we are far less prone to CC, thanks to enhanced bulkwark + Unwavering avoidance, compared to druids and tempests. Of course this was already nerfed and they’ll probably need to take that into account.
I think that’s another issue. Being pushed into Retribution + Herald just for Stab isn’t very healthy, I feel.
It covers our CC weakness in a way, but it also means we need to take 2x trait lines just so we don’t get stunned so easily and repeatedly, when I think that should be covered by the Legends mostly. Like, if you take a vulnerable Legend like Mallyx or Ventari, you should try to cover it with either Shiro or Jalis, who should both have good Stun Breaks or emergency buttons.
It’s a crutch, I feel, and it should be changed. Particularly Enhanced Bulwark since it’s the real root of the issue, doesn’t make sense in the Herald line anyway, and it isn’t healthy for a class to have such easy, brainless access to Stability. I would honestly prefer it if Unwavering Avoidance gave us Protection (something Jalis lacks) and Enhanced Bulwark modified Protection in some way to benefit both Legends/Trait lines along with much-needed Jalis buffs.
I think they also have to consider that Ventari has no Stun Breakers. That should be included when balancing his healing/cleansing. If you’re forced to swap for Defense, you have to sacrifice the Tablet and all of its sustain/defense.
I am just gonna call them by their class name.
I think roughly it will be:
Top.
Necro.
Thief.
Ranger.
Engi.Medium.
Guardian.
Revenant.
Warrior.
Mesmer.Bad.
Ele .plz seperate core.
Top
Reaper
Daredevil
Druid
Scrapper
Medium
Dragonhunter
Herald
Berserker
Chronomancer
Bad
Tempest
Core Classes
Trash
Revenant
:^)
I’d put Herald above Chrono.
Its weaknesses are just really glaring while the other classes can cover their weaknesses much better.
Doesn’t mean it’s trash. Still pretty strong.
So you want people to NOT complain about poor decisions on Anet’s part?
Their balancing history is no excuse to send out such bad changes. I will complain, people will complain. Does that mean I won’t adapt? Of course not. That still doesn’t excuse such bad practices and as a customer, I WILL complain.Like I said, which you ignored, you don’t know what the future holds, so you don’t know if these are poor decisions; lack of seeing the whole picture.
I’m not discouraging complaining, but your complaining about something we have seen as standard practice since day 1. GL.
Conversely, you don’t know the future and therefore don’t know if these are good decisions; lack of seeing the whole picture.
Of course, that line of thinking means that nothing ever gets discussed, criticized, or praised.
The difference is that I didn’t claim they were good, simply that those people complaining they were bad are doing so without knowledge of overall class direction. Therefore, you can’t accuse me of such a thing.
Frankly, I don’t think these were ‘class-destroying’ changes in any way and they were probably done on the premise of a mixture of being OPed elements of the class as well as class concept; some of these changes were in fact, completely obvious to a person with an objective view of the game, as well as experience with other classes, so when I see threads about ‘destroyed classes’, YES, please be more sensational, the more the better because that’s what Anet pays attention to AMIRITE! Class is no less playable than it was for anyone that was as knowledgeable about it as you claim you are.
In fact, as we have seen, some people actually agree that these weren’t entirely unreasonable changes; I guess you’re going to call them clueless as well right? Seems like the in vogue thing to do when people disagree with you.
And your proof that complainers don’t have knowledge of overall class direction?
It’s silly to say that, because they’re complaining, it means they don’t know class direction, but if they’re just accepting it, then it’s fine.
You can’t possibly think that’s logical.
You keep saying I’m sensational, but don’t provide any real counter-arguments. You never try to disprove the claim. I also didn’t say the class destroyed. In fact, I think it’s still pretty strong, but the underlying issues are going to continue becoming more and more noticeable the longer we wait.
We already got a few threads complaining about Sword 2 and Hammer 2 barely working, for example.
Finally, I didn’t call someone clueless just because they like the changes. I disagree, point out my thoughts and let them answer if they want. I don’t start calling them sensational either, just because I disagree.
So you want people to NOT complain about poor decisions on Anet’s part?
Their balancing history is no excuse to send out such bad changes. I will complain, people will complain. Does that mean I won’t adapt? Of course not. That still doesn’t excuse such bad practices and as a customer, I WILL complain.Like I said, which you ignored, you don’t know what the future holds, so you don’t know if these are poor decisions; lack of seeing the whole picture.
I’m not discouraging complaining, but your complaining about something we have seen as standard practice since day 1. GL.
Conversely, you don’t know the future and therefore don’t know if these are good decisions; lack of seeing the whole picture.
Of course, that line of thinking means that nothing ever gets discussed, criticized, or praised.