Guild Wars 2

I’m not disagreeing or anything, I would love to see these gone, but I just wanna say that Pulsating Pestilence is broken and only spreads a single stack of Torment.

Krysard.1364:

Then they should crazily nerf necro, cause with the announed changes he can beat rev by just pressing scepter#1

They should also fix up Jalis, Ventari, Mallyx and the myriad of bugs.
Core Revenant is kinda bad overall and post-patch Revenant has a chance of completely falling off.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Malchior.5732:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I’ll be honest, I hope that Scepter change doesn’t go through. Corrupt Boon I think would have been better to buff it in the other direction to total boon conversion on a long cooldown.

Corrupt Boon has been plagued by Boon spam. It does too little nowadays and Signets completely out-does it.
Corrupt Boon needed some sort of change, but Scepter most definitely did not. Axe would have been better off with a change than Scepter.

So restore Corrupt Boon to its launch state where it was a total boon wipe. Now it’s a burst support skill with definite purpose instead of trying to directly compete in the niche Signets of Suffering does.

Signets will still have their niche, but wont be forced for condi builds (Spite is primarily damage anyway, and doesn’t allow for Necros to use Curses or Blood Magic or Death Magic at all; they’re being forced into Spite/Soul Reaping/Reaper).
Having a total boon wipe would be nice, but the boons are reapplied very often (look at Glint!) so wiping them every 40 seconds isn’t quite as helpful as it should.
That’s why Signets are used so much: you have multiple small corruptions that can be used one after another. If one fails, you still have more and they don’t have disgusting cool downs or awful drawbacks.

Agemnon.4608:

The next balance put is simply a preseason rough draft. I normally wouldn’t care for the nerfs either (I don’t care for the facet of light nerf that’s too much) but classes like engineer and mesmer are getting their defense gutted. Reaper will be a problem for us and thief might replace some of our roles but revenant still has a place due to great mobility, point control, and crowd control. Then there is Ventari healing and cleanses. The sage amulet, which has condition damage and healing power sounds ideal for Mallyx/Ventari builds, which can be a potential reaper counter. Should make for some interesting experimentation.

Ventari? As a Reaper counter? Uhh, I think you’re a little too hopeful. Ventari’s biggest issue is the well-being of the Revenant…

Regon Phoenix.8215:

I seen bad revenent players, never seen bad revenant build.

Anything that doesn’t include either Shiro or Herald will be bad.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I’ll be honest, I hope that Scepter change doesn’t go through. Corrupt Boon I think would have been better to buff it in the other direction to total boon conversion on a long cooldown.

Corrupt Boon has been plagued by Boon spam. It does too little nowadays and Signets completely out-does it.
Corrupt Boon needed some sort of change, but Scepter most definitely did not. Axe would have been better off with a change than Scepter.

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Not only Revs, Eles and Guardians too rely almost exclusively on boons as defense.

At the very least Ele has a bunch of Condi Cleanses and Guardians have some as well.
Revenant has a laughable amount of condition cleansing.

Not sure which condition clear you are referring to for elementalist when Healing Rain cast time is one second and an half for a whooping 2 condition cleansed (if traited) every 3 seconds for 6 seconds, with no easily accessible condi clears other than this (unless ice field is blasted, if traited, and projectile finishers on water, if traited).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Water
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave_
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Torrents
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overload_Water
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Rain
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetic_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Disruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Fire
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ether_Renewal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Fire

Add to that Diamond Skin and compare to:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purifying_Essence
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Renewing_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eluding_Nullification
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Channel
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Stone (Cleanses AFTER Healing)

Don’t even come here and tell me Elementalist lacks Condition clears.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Not only Revs, Eles and Guardians too rely almost exclusively on boons as defense.

At the very least Ele has a bunch of Condi Cleanses and Guardians have some as well.
Revenant has a laughable amount of condition cleansing.

style.6173:

Rev is still going to be top 3. No tears needed.

Actually, if Necros and Thieves are getting such good changes and their counters are getting nerfed, Rev has a good chance of falling out.

Condi Reaper is already very difficult regardless of build and Thieves can handle Condi Rev due to Spike damage and the ability to just out-maneuver them.
Let’s not forget that Revenant is also losing one of its best defenses against burst damage and CC-chains AND losing a lot of power in anything larger than a pure 1v1.

I can deal anywhere from 1000 to 3000 with Precision Strike right now with max damage traits and a berserker amulet in PvP.
With the new change, it’ll max out at ~9000, assuming you’re in a 1v1, the opponent has no projectile hate, they all crit with max damage, you’re full glass, and the opponent doesn’t just run away from it (which is possible since it’s so slow).
It’s basically a much worse, mid-range CoR.

That’s fine and dandy, but I don’t want Sword to be near-worthless as soon as it turns into a 1vX or when a Mesmer/Ranger/MinionMancer shows up.

To make me happier with these changes, they need to make Precision Strike and UA single-target. We already know how deadly reflects can be, but at such close-range, you won’t be able to even react, so at least make our new burst not so random in bigger fights.

Agemnon.4608:

But the damage currently feels balanced because of how overtuned chrono, tempest, and scrapper’s defenses are (much of that is from passives but especially from the current meta’s tanky amulets and durability runes) and once those are adjusted properly the current rev damage will feel OP.

The real gamebreaking skill is jade winds, I’ve personally lost count of how many times I’ve turned the tide on a node, snowball node progress, or escape because of it and since the autoattack is so good you aren’t really giving up DPS to let it charge enough. Glint’s elite is great for node control and pushing off rezzers or downed players who teleport to a node. Then you have staff 5, which makes druid 1v1’s trivial by blocking the bristleback attack or staff 5 which is a linear knockback/interrupt for those committed to rezzing. Staff 2 is admittedly unwieldy though but a decent interrupt if you can manage to intercept people running around while they’re casting.

So even with reasonable damage levels revenant is still quite strong with its control and escape utilities.

Uhh, Thief will have better mobility, better escapes, more instant attacks (good luck dodging those Steal-chained attacks), and will have better damage than us as well.

Revenant damage was high, but we also had a good amount of weaknesses which will be showing even more now and you really think Jade Winds is that bad? JW is pretty good, but it’s also EXTREMELY recognizable and costly. You don’t lose DPS (technically you do, but I wont be getting into PvE because obviously that gets completely ignored by a lot of people here), but you do risk getting caught without Energy, which is deadly.

Glint’s Elite is also really hard to use in an actual fight; it’s mostly there for downed players or for trying to cause a bit of chaos (and lag).
Staff is good, but its damage is nothing to write home about, aside from a perfectly lined up Staff 5 (which is also the best Control skill we have; Staff 2 is pretty unwieldy).

I’d like to point out that Jalis’ heal cleanses after the heal, therefore Poison completely wrecks you.
This doesn’t help very much in the end.

If you’re fighting a Condition class with Jalis, you’re still going to die incredibly fast.
RotGD can stall for a moment, but due to how Conditions work and how they “stick”, it’s a temporary “solution”. Jalis simply doesn’t have the sustain to tank through conditions.

Maybe he shouldn’t tank Conditions though. He might be able to handle the supplementary ones, right? Well, unfortunately it only deals with damaging conditions, but I guess it sorta helps? Problem is when we get these classes with high amounts of Cripple, Chill, Immobilize, etc. who snare you and then beat you to a pulp.
Jalis has no solution to this except to use RotGD/Vengeful Hammers and hope he doesn’t die while being bombarded by soft CC.

That’s okay, though, maybe he can stay in the fight against Power builds. Well, any CC-heavy build is going to wreck you unless you have Retribution + Herald due to RotGD being so costly and Inspiring Reinforcements being so slow (and weak).
Can he tank though? Actually, if you any two of Vengeful Hammers, RotGD, or Protection, then you can actually get quite a nice amount of reduction. Problem is RotGD is too costly/low duration and Jalis/Retribution doesn’t actually have a lot of Protection while Vengeful Hammers are too easily intercepted.

So, big issues:

- Bad sustain
- Costly and easily intercepted Stun Breaker
- Really bad control skill (it’s alright for Break bars in PvE, but you’d rather DPS with hammers)
- Vengeful Hammers break too easily (especially bad as more classes get more projectile hate)
- Heal is VERY susceptible to Poison
- No mobility
- No real answers to deadly situations (Don’t have 50 Energy or Enhanced Bulwark? Get CC-chained to death)
- And finally, Jalis is way too focused on tanking Power damage, meaning that he’s complete TRASH when anyone with a specific build type shows up

Possible Changes:

- Lower cost/Increase Effectiveness of RotGD
- Makes Vengeful Hammers an “aura” instead of projectiles
- Make Soothing Stone cleanse BEFORE healing like almost every other Heal in the game
- Make Inspiring Reinforcements faster and either pulse more Stability or also pulse Protection (or both); alternatively, also make it a Stun Breaker.
- Make Forced Engagement an actual Control skill; making it cheaper would help since it already has kitten cooldown
- Give Jalis some better condition management; he can’t possibly tank players by being bombarded by soft CC and then dying slowly. You can potentially help by making RotGD lower the duration of conditions instead of just the damage.
I know Ventari or Mallyx should be the ones dealing with Conditions, but Ventari is being designed as a “healer” that can’t tank at all and has his own list of issues and Mallyx was kinda designed as the aggressive and selfish Condition dealer.

Aomine.5012:

Vargamonth.2047:

Not really sure if a build that gets soft countered by just not allowing it to have 1 on 1 fights can ever be competitive, specially when the arguably best overall 1 on 1 skirmisher is a pet class that you don’t single out by default (no nerfs announced so far, although it might be hit hard by amulet changes).

Add to this the insane corruption capabilities necromancers seem to be getting plus a mercenary amulet which fits them like a glove, and we might easily be saying goodbye to power revenants for a while.

Guess someone play too few games to know that Mallyx/Shiro Revenant can 1v 1 any class, and can eat Druid easily with the OP Banish Enchantment.

I don’t think he was even talking about that spec…lets also not forget that these might not be the only nerfs (look out, Enhanced Bulwark/Unwavering Avoidance) and with the upcoming changes, even Mallyx/Shiro might have a tough time.

Agemnon.4608:

What if there’s no real nerf in light of all those bunker amulets being removed? Yes it’s a technical nerf but maybe not one practically?

What? You still have to deal with tanky people and you’re only including sPvP.

PCanineBrigade.4916:

I can see why they want to change Facet of Light, though. Defiant Stance has a cast time, has it not? Maybe they just want to bring similar skills in line. Though it can easily be amended by just keeping it on in fights. (PvE perspective)

Yea, however, I thought the point of our lack of choice and energy cost was to allow strong skills. We now have very little response to big bursts and if you get CC-chained, it’s over.

Gonna feel like old Necro with a bigger lack of emergency buttons and easily becoming a pinball.

This wouldn’t bother me so much if they had posted at least SOMETHING Jalis/Ventari/Mallyx related. Yea, Sword might be able to spike in 1v1 better (assuming the slow projectiles even land), but you wont be able to pick anyone off in a crowd, #5 is still trash and Sword got worse against any build/class that has minions. Good luck surviving big bursts, by the way. CC-chained into oblivion and then bursted? No Glint heal to save you. Soothing Bastion/Enhanced Bulwark+Retribution or gg.

Oh, and this is definitely a nice nerf in PvE against bosses that have mobs around them.
Now, your Precision Strike still needs to be aimed, but your autos are considerably worse.
Good job.

MercenaryNote.8506:

Malchior.5732:

MercenaryNote.8506:

Jacob.4280:

So if ur playing in party with chrono, switch shiro to either jalis (more damage with hammers + stability) or mallyx (slightly less damage than jalis with hammers but has access to boonstrip, which is needed sometimes).

Definitely NOT Jalis. If the situation calls for Stability then sure, but Mallyx is 100% better than Jalis because
1) Elite has 10% stat increase across the board
2) Boonstrip
3) A lot of access to chill and resistance
4) A decent heal, which is less than Jalis’ but only slightly, and heals more for every condi.

Hammers do not provide enough damage to be even comparable to a 10% stat increase and the fact that they’re so unreliable on uneven terrain is a whole other reason not to take him. Only other good thing is the elite, but if you’re using glint anyway, you don’t need it as much.

Actually, Jalis eventually out-damages Mallyx in longer fights. Check obal’s graphs.
If you’re playing in PvE that is, in PvP, you don’t use Jalis at all.

I’d be interested to see this graph if you can provide a link, but I honestly think there has to be some miscalculation going on there as they have the same uptime (assuming you only auto) and a basically ~12% increase in damage along with useful abilities is much more desirable than an inconsistent ability that hits 1.5k per hammer at max power, might and 100% crit chance.

https://youtu.be/On9jT7H1LqE?t=1m44s

MercenaryNote.8506:

Jacob.4280:

So if ur playing in party with chrono, switch shiro to either jalis (more damage with hammers + stability) or mallyx (slightly less damage than jalis with hammers but has access to boonstrip, which is needed sometimes).

Definitely NOT Jalis. If the situation calls for Stability then sure, but Mallyx is 100% better than Jalis because
1) Elite has 10% stat increase across the board
2) Boonstrip
3) A lot of access to chill and resistance
4) A decent heal, which is less than Jalis’ but only slightly, and heals more for every condi.

Hammers do not provide enough damage to be even comparable to a 10% stat increase and the fact that they’re so unreliable on uneven terrain is a whole other reason not to take him. Only other good thing is the elite, but if you’re using glint anyway, you don’t need it as much.

Actually, Jalis eventually out-damages Mallyx in longer fights. Check obal’s graphs.
If you’re playing in PvE that is, in PvP, you don’t use Jalis at all.

brannigan.9831:

I like how these threads get overwhelmed by players of current meta builds demanding fixes for there classes which haven’t even been nerfed yet meanwhile warriors, thieves, and guardians have been hurting for months. God help you may not be top of the heap for a short time.

So when Warriors, Thieves, and Guardians were at the top, it wasn’t okay for them to ask for bug fixes or for lesser options to be changed?

Junkpile.7439:

50% dmg nerf and cor would still be best wvw skill in game.

Or the worst skill in the game. I’ve already had it crit for 3k in WvW, imagine it doing 1500 on a build with full zojja’s…
It’s also gotten worse in PvE due to the target limit so I’d rather not have it become worthless there too.

Cam Ron.4170:

BeepBoopBop.5403:

Burtnik.5218:

Cynz.9437:

Burtnik.5218:

Cynz.9437:

Kicast.1459:

solus animus.8549:

Thief
we decided that throwing auto attack damage in the mix will solve this. Our vision is your role shouldn’t be able to contribute to anything other than finishing half dead enemies or +1 fights

Unfortunatelu this is how it should be…otherwise you have to nerf their mobility.

revs, druids, mesmers, eles say hi

Rev cannot use his mobility to escape away from the fight at will.

wat? since when?

Since always unless you trying to imply that phase traversal is ground targeted in which case /facepalm.

No one implied that, you just need to learn to play rofl.

Between timing dodges (which give STABILITY), sig of energy and Riposting Shadows, you should have absolutely no problem getting the hell away from a fight. If you’re lucky, there’s another fight the next node over and you can even Phase Traversal away. In WvW is where it gets problematic escaping, but off topic.

- old s/d thief switched to Rev for ranked

Revenants get stability for dodging? lmao and they thought the thief dodge traits were too strong then release this monstrosity

While I don’t like it, Revenant also has 0 access to Vigor and the only way to increase Endurance is the use of a 30 energy utility. This trait is also the only viable source of Stability on the entire class.

Cynz.9437:

Malchior.5732:

Cynz.9437:

Malchior.5732:

Cynz.9437:

Malchior.5732:

Oishi.4358:

Burtnik.5218:

Cynz.9437:

Burtnik.5218:

Cynz.9437:

Burtnik.5218:

Cynz.9437:

Kicast.1459:

solus animus.8549:

Thief
we decided that throwing auto attack damage in the mix will solve this. Our vision is your role shouldn’t be able to contribute to anything other than finishing half dead enemies or +1 fights

Unfortunatelu this is how it should be…otherwise you have to nerf their mobility.

revs, druids, mesmers, eles say hi

Rev cannot use his mobility to escape away from the fight at will.

wat? since when?

Since always unless you trying to imply that phase traversal is ground targeted in which case /facepalm.

you can use all 3 shiro utility spells to get away if you use it properly

yeah you may not be able to teleport on top of clocktower roof but on other hand you have UA with endless following range

besides thieves don’t get away for free, it either costs ini or CDs and are not always available~

Oh yeah..i completely forgot that riposting shadows cost next to 0 energy and that we swap to new legend with 100% energy. Keep acting like revs has everything for free and always available. Not. And riposting shadows wont let me get away from mobile class btw. the only way i can escape from fight is when i am not focused.

I believe his point was more so that the impacting cost of revenant utilities/skills are far less than the cost of thief utilities/skills.

Thief utilities don’t prevent weapon skill/utility/elite use and aren’t forced packages.
They’re also much worse for escaping and survivability in-general (you can equip as many stun breakers as you want or cleanses while Rev cannot).

Play mallyx duhh, stab on dodge helps a lot.

Sure thief utilities don’t prevent weapon skills but thieves also don’t have double utility bar and instant refill of ini~

Also did you just say that revs have worse survival than thieves? Are you serious? I can stay in team fights and 1v1 on rev, i can’t do it on thief.

I suggest you go re-read what I said, then go read the Revenant traits.

“Play mallyx duhh, stab on dodge helps a lot”

Mallyx and Stab-on-dodge have nothing to do with each other. So please, follow my advice

mallyx is for resistance /facepalm

At the risk of continuing this pointless argument, I’m just gonna say this: You didn’t say Mallyx was for Resistance, but rather tried to point out that because of Mallyx, you could have Stab-on-dodge.

you complained about condi cleanse and stun breaks

Complain

to express dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or grief; find fault:

I wasn’t complaining, but rather pointing out why Revenant utilities need to be a bit stronger than normal ones.

Xillllix.3485:

Malchior.5732:

Xillllix.3485:

Ara.4569:

Nerf everything. Do you understand what power creep is ANET ? DO YOU ?!!

Yeah and the power creep is the real reason why every squishy class had to go full bunker in the first place. If they nerf bunker they will be nerfing the symptom and not the cause, and everything will just get worse.

That’s…debatable. I don’t think bunker Tempest, for example, is fine.

Thieves almost purely play Marauder, not bunker (because, well, they can’t really).

Guardians are also thrust into burst and damage with Dragonhunter.

So, the only squishy forced into full bunker stats is the Tempest (actually uses Celestial) and that’s because they’ve been built to just sustain forever. There’s just way too much sustain and not enough good damage options, at least not against super bunkers like…Tempests and Chronomancers and by good damage options, I mean ones that encourage risky play with Marauder/Zerker stats instead of just out-sustaining everything with Celestial.

I know, and playing tempest myself I can say I hate it. All the beta weekends I was asking for damage traits instead of bunker traits. They just never listened.

Tempest has no variety, all the traits are defensive, and auramancer wasn’t a good idea since it overlaps water. We certainy didnt need more healing and 7% more protection either.

What the ele needed was a range weapon that does faster spike damage to 1 target, as a complementary to staff, instead of warhorn which does nothing interesting at all and some kitten to survive all the damage buffs other classes got with their elite professions.

I forgot Tempests even had Warhorn :^)

They might be able to rectify these issues with this next patch by improving Scepter and reducing the sustain across the board (as in, almost every class needs sustain nerfs except Warrior and arguably Thief), although I’m sure it’s unlikely to succeed in just one patch. Regardless, I wont be playing Elementalist again for a very long time.

Xillllix.3485:

Ara.4569:

Nerf everything. Do you understand what power creep is ANET ? DO YOU ?!!

Yeah and the power creep is the real reason why every squishy class had to go full bunker in the first place. If they nerf bunker they will be nerfing the symptom and not the cause, and everything will just get worse.

That’s…debatable. I don’t think bunker Tempest, for example, is fine.

Thieves almost purely play Marauder, not bunker (because, well, they can’t really).

Guardians are also thrust into burst and damage with Dragonhunter.

So, the only squishy forced into full bunker stats is the Tempest (actually uses Celestial) and that’s because they’ve been built to just sustain forever. There’s just way too much sustain and not enough good damage options, at least not against super bunkers like…Tempests and Chronomancers and by good damage options, I mean ones that encourage risky play with Marauder/Zerker stats instead of just out-sustaining everything with Celestial.

Xillllix.3485:

Burtnik.5218:

Xillllix.3485:

Burtnik.5218:

Xillllix.3485:

Please just tell us that after this balance patch we won’t get hit for 24k Coalescence of Ruin double hits from a single cast in WvW.

Its your like..3 or 4 post in this thread about something noone care. It doesnt go anywhere so the qq is pointless. Dont want to be hit for 10k cor? Time to get toughness gear and move on.

Everyone in the WvW community cares about this. It’s why many people are just leaving the game. Toughness doesn’t change anything, you still get hit for 10k and the double hit still 1-shot you even if you have 3k armor.

I have never been hit once for 10+k cor on my rev and i have only..2650 armor. At best i was hit for 7k. I have also seen roaming tempest that i couldnt hit for more than 4k cor at max range so please..spare me this bs. Use proper build or learn how to position yourself.

It has nothing to do with positioning or builds. The skill has (1) a broken trait that doubles the damage up to 17-18k, 14k on heavy armor and (2) there is a bug that makes the skill hit twice the same target, so even if it hits “only for 9k” it will be doing 7k + 9k and insta-kill the heaviest of class.

There is nothing you can say that can defend such a damage burst on a 2 second cooldown.

1. I know it’s just hyperbole, but it’s actually a 50% increase which admittedly should be changed. Far too punishing, but then again, Revenant’s don’t have very many burst skills to even take advantage of it.

2. I don’t think it’s actually a bug. It’s just multiple AoEs and you happen to walk into or step into a sweetspot where you take two hits. It’s not quite as common as people make it out to be though. Been playing WvW for a while with full Zojja’s and almost every single damage trait and I just barely hit over 9k every once in a while. Never hit over 10k and I could never tell if I hit anyone twice or not.

However, I do agree it needs a change. CoR already got nerfed to a limit of 5 total targets even though it spawns 3x AoEs so how about just giving CoR an ICD per hit?
How about shaving the damage on CoR and giving Hammer 3-5 the ability to kite enemies? As is, CoR spam is the only reason to take Hammer at all, aside from being our only ranged weapon.

Cynz.9437:

Malchior.5732:

Cynz.9437:

Malchior.5732:

Oishi.4358:

Burtnik.5218:

Cynz.9437:

Burtnik.5218:

Cynz.9437:

Burtnik.5218:

Cynz.9437:

Kicast.1459:

solus animus.8549:

Thief
we decided that throwing auto attack damage in the mix will solve this. Our vision is your role shouldn’t be able to contribute to anything other than finishing half dead enemies or +1 fights

Unfortunatelu this is how it should be…otherwise you have to nerf their mobility.

revs, druids, mesmers, eles say hi

Rev cannot use his mobility to escape away from the fight at will.

wat? since when?

Since always unless you trying to imply that phase traversal is ground targeted in which case /facepalm.

you can use all 3 shiro utility spells to get away if you use it properly

yeah you may not be able to teleport on top of clocktower roof but on other hand you have UA with endless following range

besides thieves don’t get away for free, it either costs ini or CDs and are not always available~

Oh yeah..i completely forgot that riposting shadows cost next to 0 energy and that we swap to new legend with 100% energy. Keep acting like revs has everything for free and always available. Not. And riposting shadows wont let me get away from mobile class btw. the only way i can escape from fight is when i am not focused.

I believe his point was more so that the impacting cost of revenant utilities/skills are far less than the cost of thief utilities/skills.

Thief utilities don’t prevent weapon skill/utility/elite use and aren’t forced packages.
They’re also much worse for escaping and survivability in-general (you can equip as many stun breakers as you want or cleanses while Rev cannot).

Play mallyx duhh, stab on dodge helps a lot.

Sure thief utilities don’t prevent weapon skills but thieves also don’t have double utility bar and instant refill of ini~

Also did you just say that revs have worse survival than thieves? Are you serious? I can stay in team fights and 1v1 on rev, i can’t do it on thief.

I suggest you go re-read what I said, then go read the Revenant traits.

“Play mallyx duhh, stab on dodge helps a lot”

Mallyx and Stab-on-dodge have nothing to do with each other. So please, follow my advice

mallyx is for resistance /facepalm

At the risk of continuing this pointless argument, I’m just gonna say this: You didn’t say Mallyx was for Resistance, but rather tried to point out that because of Mallyx, you could have Stab-on-dodge.

Cynz.9437:

Malchior.5732:

Oishi.4358:

Burtnik.5218:

Cynz.9437:

Burtnik.5218:

Cynz.9437:

Burtnik.5218:

Cynz.9437:

Kicast.1459:

solus animus.8549:

Thief
we decided that throwing auto attack damage in the mix will solve this. Our vision is your role shouldn’t be able to contribute to anything other than finishing half dead enemies or +1 fights

Unfortunatelu this is how it should be…otherwise you have to nerf their mobility.

revs, druids, mesmers, eles say hi

Rev cannot use his mobility to escape away from the fight at will.

wat? since when?

Since always unless you trying to imply that phase traversal is ground targeted in which case /facepalm.

you can use all 3 shiro utility spells to get away if you use it properly

yeah you may not be able to teleport on top of clocktower roof but on other hand you have UA with endless following range

besides thieves don’t get away for free, it either costs ini or CDs and are not always available~

Oh yeah..i completely forgot that riposting shadows cost next to 0 energy and that we swap to new legend with 100% energy. Keep acting like revs has everything for free and always available. Not. And riposting shadows wont let me get away from mobile class btw. the only way i can escape from fight is when i am not focused.

I believe his point was more so that the impacting cost of revenant utilities/skills are far less than the cost of thief utilities/skills.

Thief utilities don’t prevent weapon skill/utility/elite use and aren’t forced packages.
They’re also much worse for escaping and survivability in-general (you can equip as many stun breakers as you want or cleanses while Rev cannot).

Play mallyx duhh, stab on dodge helps a lot.

Sure thief utilities don’t prevent weapon skills but thieves also don’t have double utility bar and instant refill of ini~

Also did you just say that revs have worse survival than thieves? Are you serious? I can stay in team fights and 1v1 on rev, i can’t do it on thief.

I suggest you go re-read what I said, then go read the Revenant traits.

“Play mallyx duhh, stab on dodge helps a lot”

Mallyx and Stab-on-dodge have nothing to do with each other. So please, follow my advice

brannigan.9831:

Blue Hare.8612:

I don’t think it is a good idea to implement too many changes at once, you just end up overshooting in a way or another and get huge swings in balance. Just look what happened when Anet wanted to get rid of zerk meta, we are now in a complete opposite end of things.

Ppl demand big changes immediately but it is verry hard for Anet to strike balance at the first try. In PvP everything is connected to everything, if you change too much and nerf one class that pushed other off meta and buff the other one, the other one rises to the top and pushes someone else off meta.

Some argue that it is only fair for those op classes to be trash for once and the once underpowered classes to have their payback but that is just childish.

I do agree that the current situation needs some serious work but I would rather have more gradual changes and eventually reach balance. I made a fancy graph to better illustrate this:

Are you serious all they do is gradual changes that’s why things stay over-powered for so long. As for one class being pushed off and another taking its place that is the way it’s going to be most of the time. There is no such thing as perfect balance. That doesn’t mean you don’t try to fix what’s wrong.

Or you could have classes that just need to be shaved get totally destroyed in one patch.

Junkpile.7439:

Reve sword should do about same amount dps than warrior sword.

Warrior has other DPS weapons like Axe and GS while Revenant only has Sword MH for most of their DPS.

Oishi.4358:

Burtnik.5218:

Cynz.9437:

Burtnik.5218:

Cynz.9437:

Burtnik.5218:

Cynz.9437:

Kicast.1459:

solus animus.8549:

Thief
we decided that throwing auto attack damage in the mix will solve this. Our vision is your role shouldn’t be able to contribute to anything other than finishing half dead enemies or +1 fights

Unfortunatelu this is how it should be…otherwise you have to nerf their mobility.

revs, druids, mesmers, eles say hi

Rev cannot use his mobility to escape away from the fight at will.

wat? since when?

Since always unless you trying to imply that phase traversal is ground targeted in which case /facepalm.

you can use all 3 shiro utility spells to get away if you use it properly

yeah you may not be able to teleport on top of clocktower roof but on other hand you have UA with endless following range

besides thieves don’t get away for free, it either costs ini or CDs and are not always available~

Oh yeah..i completely forgot that riposting shadows cost next to 0 energy and that we swap to new legend with 100% energy. Keep acting like revs has everything for free and always available. Not. And riposting shadows wont let me get away from mobile class btw. the only way i can escape from fight is when i am not focused.

I believe his point was more so that the impacting cost of revenant utilities/skills are far less than the cost of thief utilities/skills.

Thief utilities don’t prevent weapon skill/utility/elite use and aren’t forced packages.
They’re also much worse for escaping and survivability in-general (you can equip as many stun breakers as you want or cleanses while Rev cannot).

StickerHappy.8052:

Browrain.7346:

Probably the most pointless comparison I’ve ever seen.

Pointless or not, I just can’t believe people do not wanna accept Revs AA from sword hits absurdly high, no one wants to admit that,

Where do you see that? I don’t see people denying that it hits hard.

NiloyBardhan.9170:

Malchior.5732:

NiloyBardhan.9170:

Malchior.5732:

NiloyBardhan.9170:

As for DH, there are way too many counters to their trap style of play. If anything the following should be nerfed:
1) Rev (as a whole)

- Jalis/Ventari are complete trash (Jalis hammers are good only in PvE)
- Hammer 5 is trash (3 and 4 are kinda just okay)
- Hammer has 0 kiting potential
- Sword 2 is almost entirely useless in PvP
- Sword 4’s second stage and Sword 5 are trash
- Shiro heal can be reflected (and heals the opponent)
- Phase Traversal frequently fails and can be interrupted by a Mesmer now (resulting in 3x CDs on occasion…on a class with no escapes)
- Mallyx is a confused mess and completely relies on all 3 trait lines to function
- Core Revenant is pretty bad overall
- Huge terrain issues with Sword 3, Hammer 2, and Jalis hammers

Rev as a whole should be nerfed?
Nah, only specific things need to be shaved and a lot of things need to be fixed just for the class to function properly.

When I wrote as a whole, I meant the usual aspects like sustain/dmg of the legends I see everyday (Mallyx/Shiro and glint). Honestly, I haven’t seen a rev running Ventari in ranked so I won’t comment, but the sustain they have along with immunities (resistance uptime, tons of evades, blocks) while dealing massive damage is unbalanced. If you call certain hammer skills trash, what would you call warrior hammer skills? #5 skills are both similar except that rev can ground target and use it from a distance whereas warrior has to be in melee range. This is just an example.

That’s fine. I agree the sustain is too much, but “as a whole” means everything, not just sustain/damage.
Regardless, Warrior hammer is designed as a melee/control weapon (and it has the tools to do so) while Rev hammer is designed to be a ranged DPS weapon, yet has 0 kiting potential and relies almost entirely on CoR to be useful. Also, Rev’s Hammer 5 takes almost 2 seconds to do anything while Warrior hammer only takes 1 second and has a lot more CCs to fall back on.

You’re right, I had worded it incorrectly regarding the whole stuff thing. Its just that the three legends along with certain traits that needs major nerfs (95%+ of revs uses 2 of these 3 legends).

Speaking from a warr’s PoV, hammer rev is superior to ours. Being ranged in this meta already gives a huge difference in team fights (not to mention CoR). Warriors lack sustain to be in melee for too long whereas a DPS rev can survive better than a warrior. The bottomline is that melee damage should have higher power coefficient than ranged…CoR alone defies this.

I would LOVE a CoR nerf if it meant 3-5 would get some love.
3 is nice, but, again, no kiting.
4 is kinda slow and only helps if you’re facing people, not when you’re trying to run away or kite in different directions.
5 is awful.
Hammer as a whole is worthless for Condi builds.

Warrior is undertuned right now, so of course it feels worse in comparison. Rev Shield gives a lot of sustain for no effort while Warriors are struggling.

Alekt.5803:

“In this iteration, we’ll be looking to tone down the revenant’s sword damage in some areas and adjust the weapon’s abilities so that it’s less focused on autoattacking "
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/profession-balance-goals-for-the-winter-2016-update/

I was right.

“Right”.
Okay?

Sword auto deals a lot of damage and might still do a lot post-patch
The very fact that your test was so flawed and ignorant of other class’ damage potentials is what was wrong.
Then you felt the need to revive this thread just to “prove” something.
I was being mostly objective and did actual tests to prove that Revrnant’s Sword damage wasn’t that much higher than the DPS of other classes, although it was all relegated to the auto-attack. Whether or not that’s good or bad is subjective as it allowed the class to keep its other skills for utility. There was no right or wrong on an objective fact that Rev Sword Auto was stronger than most other autos and that your test was flawed for that very reason.

NiloyBardhan.9170:

Malchior.5732:

NiloyBardhan.9170:

As for DH, there are way too many counters to their trap style of play. If anything the following should be nerfed:
1) Rev (as a whole)

- Jalis/Ventari are complete trash (Jalis hammers are good only in PvE)
- Hammer 5 is trash (3 and 4 are kinda just okay)
- Hammer has 0 kiting potential
- Sword 2 is almost entirely useless in PvP
- Sword 4’s second stage and Sword 5 are trash
- Shiro heal can be reflected (and heals the opponent)
- Phase Traversal frequently fails and can be interrupted by a Mesmer now (resulting in 3x CDs on occasion…on a class with no escapes)
- Mallyx is a confused mess and completely relies on all 3 trait lines to function
- Core Revenant is pretty bad overall
- Huge terrain issues with Sword 3, Hammer 2, and Jalis hammers

Rev as a whole should be nerfed?
Nah, only specific things need to be shaved and a lot of things need to be fixed just for the class to function properly.

When I wrote as a whole, I meant the usual aspects like sustain/dmg of the legends I see everyday (Mallyx/Shiro and glint). Honestly, I haven’t seen a rev running Ventari in ranked so I won’t comment, but the sustain they have along with immunities (resistance uptime, tons of evades, blocks) while dealing massive damage is unbalanced. If you call certain hammer skills trash, what would you call warrior hammer skills? #5 skills are both similar except that rev can ground target and use it from a distance whereas warrior has to be in melee range. This is just an example.

That’s fine. I agree the sustain is too much, but “as a whole” means everything, not just sustain/damage.
Regardless, Warrior hammer is designed as a melee/control weapon (and it has the tools to do so) while Rev hammer is designed to be a ranged DPS weapon, yet has 0 kiting potential and relies almost entirely on CoR to be useful. Also, Rev’s Hammer 5 takes almost 2 seconds to do anything while Warrior hammer only takes 1 second and has a lot more CCs to fall back on.

Serious Thought.5394:

Malchior, Jalis hammers are AMAZING damage because vuln=lifesteal trait. The 2 second cc is brutal. The road is great for stomp security if needed. The heal is garbage and the elite is garbage. Ventari is garbage, but I hate support.
Hammer 5 is beautiful. No kiting, but if anyone ignores me or I see a root that hammer comes down and its gg for the receptee. I agree sword 2 sucks, and I don’t use offhand because Axe synergizes better.

Did not know shiro heal, that is why you have stability on dodge, Mallyx is great for dueling and support not sure why you think its bad. Terrain is an issue.

Rev is new, and l2p is a thing. That isn’t to say the whole thing is powerful, but also it isn’t garbage. A new profession means new methods. You can’t tell me you spent long looking for a build your own way before picking “meta” which changed frequently because the glass isn’t even a year old…. not even half I think?

I’m more than willing to give you builds that are deceptively potent

I’ve been playing Revenant since BWE1.

The hammers CONSTANTLY break on anything. Projectile destruction, terrain, etc.
Jalis is difficult to use in fights due to not having a good, reliable Stun Break, bad Stability (I need Stability NOW, not like 2-3 seconds later), and broken skills.

Hammer 5 is garbage. As you said, if they ignore you. It’s bad.

So, I have Stab on dodge (which forces Retribution + Herald to really make use of it…) because Shiro heal can be reflected? That makes no sense. Oh, did I mention how Jalis’ heal cleanses conditions AFTER it heals, which means Poison can wreck you?

Then, Mallyx is a confused mess. You have traits (and skills) that encourage condition hoarding, but that was the very reason he was gutted in the first place: to not encourage that playstyle. Those skills and traits got nerfed because of it, Mallyx became a shell of his former self and is actually pretty bad if you don’t run Retribution/Herald/X. Oh, and Pulsating Pestilence is broken and only spreads a single stack of Torment instead of copying conditions.

NiloyBardhan.9170:

As for DH, there are way too many counters to their trap style of play. If anything the following should be nerfed:
1) Rev (as a whole)

- Jalis/Ventari are complete trash (Jalis hammers are good only in PvE)
- Hammer 5 is trash (3 and 4 are kinda just okay)
- Hammer has 0 kiting potential
- Sword 2 is almost entirely useless in PvP
- Sword 4’s second stage and Sword 5 are trash
- Shiro heal can be reflected (and heals the opponent)
- Phase Traversal frequently fails and can be interrupted by a Mesmer now (resulting in 3x CDs on occasion…on a class with no escapes)
- Mallyx is a confused mess and completely relies on all 3 trait lines to function
- Core Revenant is pretty bad overall
- Huge terrain issues with Sword 3, Hammer 2, and Jalis hammers

Rev as a whole should be nerfed?
Nah, only specific things need to be shaved and a lot of things need to be fixed just for the class to function properly.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Hunter.4783:

In other words, rev nerfs with NO COMPENSATION.

Half legends will remain worthless

To be fair, the game has only been worse since Rev came on the scene. Coincidence?

The game has only been worse since they started focusing on PvP :^)

If UA gets buffed…people are gonna be mad.
If anything happens to UA, especially a change that makes it single-target, expect it to do less damage.

Artaz.3819:

The reason enhanced bulwark is awesome is that you get it from all sources of stability. A dodge roll giving 2 stacks is one thing.

You are getting an extra stab stack that lasts 5s – 9s per from the fellow Guardian (meta build) / Chrono (meta build) / Scrapper (meta build) / Tempest (meta build) is what makes it beyond powerful.

You want to curb the power of the trait, start with other sources of stab. Then work on it’s duration.

So, you want to make this trait more worthless, before working on its duration?
I’d rather they just change this trait a bit. It makes no sense in the Herald line since our only source of Stab is in Retribution/Jalis and relying on others for your traits to work at all isn’t great design.

Also, remind me, how do Scrappers share Stab outside of Elixer conversions? I also thought the meta Tempest build used Geomancer’s Training over Rock Solid.

Also, we should mention that in WvW, people can have full Ascended gear along with food and other buffs, leading to these crazy high numbers. That being said, I was in full Zojja’s with no food and the highest I ever hit was ~9k with Invocation/Devastation/Herald at max range and most damage modifiers.

Yea, you can totally hit 10k there, but then again, I had quite an advantage over anyone in full exotics. Now, in PvP, Hammer isn’t quite so great. You wont reach 10k in any realistic scenario except on those rare double-hits and there’s less stuff going on so people wont be caught in it so much.

I’m fine with a Sword Auto nerf if that damage gets moved somewhere and maybe change up Sword 5 so it isn’t so lackluster.
Whatever makes it more skill-oriented without gutting it is fine with me, although it’s funny how they’re thinking of buffing up the Thief auto-attacks until the Thieves become extremely dangerous.

Anyway, I really do hope they change up Mallyx/Corruption (unlikely…) and I’m glad that they’re going to touch on the survivability, but I hope they don’t go too crazy and make us complete garbage.

Changing Mallyx would be at the top of my list because I used to love it so much, but I guess we should be somewhat realistic here so I’m going to say that I want Jalis fixed up. It should be the legend that just charges in, but instead it just flops.

Burtnik.5218:

Vash.9183:

Hunter.4783:

Hunter.4783:

Chorazin.4107:

Hunter.4783:

Chorazin.4107:

Hunter.4783:

Strafing, if you are in range, or get to melee range if you see hammer. Problem solved. there are 2 additional counters to hammer besides the usual of dodge/blind/block etc

But i guess its easier to complain on forums rather than L2P

Clearly did not read thread lol.

There are no complaints about it in small format WvW, in a duel you can see the wind up and ur not going to get hit by the final CoR in the chain. You can push to the target and engage in melee.

The problem comes when you have 5 of them at the back of say a 30 man zerg, in fact with hammer how it is you might as well replace every backline DPS class with a rev. Zerker staff eles, get rid of them, DPS necros, cya later, no waiting for wells to come off cooldown, hammer 2 every 2 seconds!!. Replace all of them with hammer Rev’s, they are vastly superior in DPS.

If you dont play WvW a lot you are not really qualified to be talking. T1 backline for zergs or guild groups 15+ is pretty much a chain of hammer revs. You cant strafe and avoid 5-8 hammer revs CoR’ing every 2 seconds, you cant push through 30 people to

get to melee range if you see hammer

like the kittening Einstein’s on here would have you think is the counter.

In fact given the pirate ship meta you cant push at all unless you want to be blown up in about 1/2 a second.

First of all, WvW is a failed format and no one cares about 40 v40 balance.

Then why are you even commenting, the complaints about hammer 2 are only in WvW groups 10-15 and up. Not PvP, not Duels, not PvE. Rather than coming into a thread not reading it at all and coming up with some solution that is not plausible to a problem you have no clue about.

There is a semblance of balance to WvW despite what you like to think. Im not even sure if it’s just an attempt to be disingenuous or you legitimately think the game has no balance at all in WvW. And some things just break that entirely like the hammer 2 skill. Look at other backline skills, Meteor shower has a 1.3 coefficient and a 30 second cooldown is a good example.

Also notice you are the only one crying about hammer 2. If your complaint is about wvw take it to the wvw forums. Hammer is fine in pve and spvp which are the game modes Anet is balancing on. When everyone else tells you that you are wrong chances are you need to stop replying

Lol all these people defending their broken class. I know it probably scares you to think that you might have to be balanced to be more comparable to other classes. He is not the only one “crying about hammer 2.” You must not log into the game very much. I hate to break it to you, but there is no doubt that ANet will nerf Revenant hammer. The only question is just when.

And why they would nerf underpowered weapon? Doesnt make sense for me.

It’s Anet. Why wouldn’t they?

That being said, I wouldn’t mind a CoR damage nerf if the other skills are buffed to compensate. It’s hard to maintain distance with Hammer, it’s completely useless to Condi builds, and it’s mostly useless without being able to spam CoR.

http://i.imgur.com/XNUjFny.jpg

This thing has been gathering dust in my bank for a while ever since Beta. How did I get it? I have no idea. I just logged on my non-Beta Elementalist during BWE and he had a chest in the corner. I clicked it and got this thing and I just saved it forever.

Why am I sharing this with you now? I dunno. Anyone else get this thing somehow during Beta or was it just me?

I’d be fine with a CoR damage nerf, but only if the other skills are buffed and the damage gets moved somewhere else. Hammer 5 in particular is pretty bad.

supa suop.8026:

Varezenem.2813:

This is a energy regen increase proposal which is bad.
It has a tendency to be a non-optional trait like for thief the trickery line. Roy mentioned that he didn’t want to make anything like that too

But I think Mr. Roy did that exact thing that he was trying to avoid by making Charged Mists, and Shrouded Mists so lack luster from the start. At least with the changes mention before it offers players more of an option. They can either go with a more utility GM at the cost of DPS or vice versa.

You misunderstand, with your proposed change, the trait line could end up being mandatory in every build. Imagine a Mallyx Revenant suddenly being able to pop 5+ Banish Enchantments in a row. It’d be hilarious, but a bit too much (point is, you’d be able to spam whatever you want for longer and with less repercussions).

On-Topic:

- Dismantle Fortifications: I dunno. It’s obviously trying to encourage more Anti-Stab or more Control, but it’s pretty bad compared to the other GMs who both increase DPS by quite a bit (one of them also healing you). Maybe they could try making it so that if you hit someone that has Stability, it will Daze them (as in, it’ll remove 2x stacks of Stab total, also actually Daze them if they only have 1 stack of Stability) and optionally it could also remove Protection since it should Dismantle Fortifications and do all this on a smallish ICD (~10s?).

I don’t really know what to do with it. The other options are really good.

- Steadfast Rejuvenation: I actually like Burtnik’s idea.

- Charged Mists: Ugh, playing with this requires a lot of waiting and managing for pathetic gains. Why play around with this when I can just take Glint and build a ton more Might passively? Mace also builds Might decently.
How should it be changed though? I’d like for it to encourage the energy management, but it’s way too weak as is. I’m really stumped on this one. Maybe make it give a solid damage increase or more Might stacks in an AoE or make the Might last longer. I’m not sure.

- Shrouding Mists: Strange how it increases outgoing Healing isn’kitten It could possibly be made so it decreases the duration of damaging Conditions on you by 25% (or some other number) when below 50 Energy and then decreases the duration of non-damaging Conditions by like 30% when above 50 Energy.
Just an idea.

Burtnik.5218:

Malchior.5732:

Burtnik.5218:

Malchior.5732:

Burtnik.5218:

We have 2 heals in theory. In practice by selecting Shiro we have olny one healing skill. Thats what makes shield 5 so good and must have bc its a reliable healing ability which we lack in current state by choosing Shiro. Out of em all i consider olny Glint and Mallyx heals to be good. Rest is trash

If you want good, consistent heals (probably on the other legends since I think Shiro should be pretty risky, although the reflect is a bit much) then maybe Shield needs to be weakened. People already complain about our sustain now, imagine if we had actually good heals.

Question is if you should rely on a single offhand weapon and traitline forever till gw3 just bc you designed legend with crap healing ability.

That’s exactly why Shield should potentially be changed. It can potentially cause them to limit our legend’s heal skills.
Yea, unblockable attacks can go through it, but a lot of classes can’t take advantage of that nor is it good to force them into it for the chance of us running Shield.

How you would change the shield tho? I dont mind it as i prefer underpowered sword offhand bc look but im just curious. Also its not like we cant pair Glint with Mallyx and end up having 2 strong heals on top of shield? Am i right or not? So no, shield is not excuse to keep Shiro healing in current trash state.

Mallyx Heal is strong? It’s pretty mediocre if you don’t get condi bombed and it’s still worse than Consume Conditions while the Glint Heal can potentially not Heal you much at all.
That also comes with its own opportunity costs as you don’t have nearly as much mobility or such a good stun break nor such a good way to deal damage like Shiro.

As for Shield changes, you could just make it less focused on healing and more about general boon support.
Like Shield 5 could still heal (maybe a bit less base healing with better scaling), but Shield 4 could apply Stability to allies instead of healing (which makes Enhanced Bulwark make a bit more sense actually) or apply a larger amount of Protection along with some other boons. Alternatively make it increase boon durations by several seconds.

Duke of Thorin.7425:

As an ele main with 2000 exclusive hours on ele, diamond skin is absolutely fine.

Well, excluding the fact that this doesn’t really prove anything, the problem isn’t that DS is a God tier trait that’s unbeatable, but rather that it’s unhealthy for the game. It either hard-counters builds or is completely worthless.

Xillllix.3485:

Exxcalibur.6203:

TLDR:

Waaa! Why can’t I faceroll every spec as condition reaper??

He probably doesn’t even know what chill affects eles twice more than other classes, and that without diamond skill they are just locked out of skill usage. Reapers are the clearest example of why Diamond Skin needs to stay as it is.

So basically, because a class has a distinct advantage due to certain class mechanics, that makes a poorly designed skill, that affects stat choices and completely hard-counters certain builds from multiple classes, okay to have?