Guild Wars 2

Its a problem but people asked for division based MM not MMR based…

(just goes to show the customer is not always right)

Its ironic because people like Helseth sort of spear headed these changes, and now he just recently said he’s so bored of MM he can’t play gw2 (soloq/MM) anymore.

Lots of people just quit and are playing unranked (its pretty fast queues even during off hours.)

Regardless of the system being bad or good, why not just play unranked for awhile rather than throwing games ..?

You mean division? Cause I think MMR does take class into account. Also separates ranked vs unranked.

I actually agree with OP about work should equal reward, not skill. But not for any of the reasons above. And we need two separate systems. One for rewards, one for pure MMR/skill that has nothing to do with rewards and determines pro league stuff. And finally you should be able to choose what you want to display (yea there should be divs based on MMR you can display)

True PvPers should be competing for the sake of competing and not for any reward. Let the PvErs have a reward track to grind for shinies.

For the reward track portion: Bring back team v team MM (to make fights fair again) but add bonus pips for wins with super high MMR so players like helseth stop complaining (and it incentivises higher MMR.) For example, if you are the top 1% MMR wise, you might gain 3 pips on a win, and only lose 1 pip on a loss. However, keep in mind they’d be facing pro league teams every match again in soloq (only fair.)

Oh no a stranger has a negative opinion about something I drew, MOM MOM! MOM! better post about it on the internet MOM! someone said they didn’t like me!

I actually found that useful.

I mean I already understood the concept of snowballing of course. But he makes a good point about just how important it is in soloq. Especially the first fight and what you decide to do to get it started. How you really can’t hesitate even a second. Also depending on your class and role and your team mates and enemies HOW you should carry.

I don’t like how MM is, and I am not being matched where I should be. But I’ve also realized I am not as good as I thought I was and could be doing more to carry.

I think there is actually plenty of depth… if you’re on a good team with coms vs another good team with coms. The Abjured losing to Dragon 55 strat, skirmish vs team fight thing was a perfect example.

Soloq? Nope.

I got a mesmer, two thief, and warrior comp. Like the lotto.

I wasn’t even insistent on anyone changing to something meta or broken, just something, that could you know, actually team fight/sustain.

So I get made fun of the entire game and derided. Hmm.

This just really irks me because normally I am the one who tells people to chill. I never rage. I just asked for a thief to change. I didn’t name call or anything.

Its ranked, can we at least pretend to try to win?

The best bit was neither thief knew their role what so ever. Insta gibbed in every fight. No decaps.

Suspicious at least half were there for dailies. (what were dailies today? I don’t pay them attention)

Sorry just had to rant, kind of a pointless post, other than why was I teamed with them? No one decent left in emerald I guess.

edit: before anyone asks, I was on rev, arguably the best class I could be on for such a team. Tempest? no one to support. Reaper? No support, gonna get focused. Druid or scrapper maybe but I don’t play them and would have survived worse than my rev.

Who stands around AAing? Its semi rare to get the full 3 off. You are way over estimating its usefulness.

considering queue times for some ppl…this would actually be a fun idea

Some sort of rings you could race ppl through maybe

Shala.8352:

omg guys you already didn give up on warrior? stop using it, rlly you are hurting yourself

People really exaggerate. If you’re a good player you can make warrior (or thief) work. And if your bad you’ll be bad meta or not.

I just wouldn’t stack them.

well yeah, I’ve always thought of sustain as DPS + defense in some form

it can come from heals + prot

but also second hp bars

or iframes/blocks/evades/etc can be really important

stealth would obv be an ability that lets you do the opposite, burst damage

Pyriall.1683:

Warrior cannot fulfill its role as long as Scrapper/Revenant remain in the current forms.

Its just this really. Its the meta. Warrior and thief are fine. Its the other classes that are out of tune (too powerful) that over fulfill their roles that push out warrior and thief.

Nothing complex or clever buff wise needs to happen to warrior or thief. Scrapper and Rev just need fine tuning.

If you buff war/thief in some weird way (to the point you always want one) you’ll just get an even worse meta most likely.

Haha, yes exactly. There is a definite random factor feel when soloq. The difference in MMR between teams is always so great there is never any reason to actually play.
Score will end up ~500-100 either way.

To make it worse I can almost predict how it will turn out within the first 20 seconds or so of a match (depending on map.) Just by my team’s initial behavior and where they head.

cosmicegg.8502:

lol that vid shows the intentional movements of a hacker those weren’t bugs or lag.

wasn’t replying to video, just OP.

random bugs can happen. One time I was invisible to half the enemy team for no apparent reason. They thought I was hacking I obviously wasn’t. I could attack them and everything. Was pretty funny. Game is buggy.

foogison.5067:

Corp Por.1567:

How does one get 10K achievement points solely through pvp?

I definately did not get it solely through pvp. 3000 of my ap is dailies only. And this is my point here, achievement points are an indication of how long you have played for and how well you understand the game.

I specified achievement points because I’m looking for long time players. I’m sorry if you took that as me being elitist.

lol I’ve played since beta and I think I’m at 6-8k AP (Its so far from my mind I honestly have no idea, but pretty sure its above 5k and lower than 10k lol) I only bother doing daily half the time.

10k + AP means you are a achievement pve hunting…. person. And only that

1. Yea except I already play those 3 classes (I’ve mained all classes except war and I play the meta builds and watch pro streamers like phant for tips)

2. Been Playing for 2-3 years

3. Know a fair bit, First season I made it to ruby without trying, before I got sick to death of that meta, and didn’t want to play anymore

Made it to emerald right off several days ago, then went on an epic losing streak and now am only paired with “Combat Healer” title types. Yet go up against dragons and “Champion x” and such. Yea I know by itself that isn’t a full indication of skill but trust me here.

Even if you want to call me average my team mates are below average every time. And I can’t carry a match when teams aren’t fair, so its impossible to elevate my MMR.

Yea that’s not neccessarily true.

You can be 2v1 stalling far, get no kills, it can be the appropriate play, meanwhile your team mates are doing idiotic things losing the game, and then give up after the first team fight and you can’t get a single point because literally all 4 are afk at spawn and the entire enemy team is spawn camping you.

That’s just one example. But most of them include your team being dumb and then afking at spawn after the first team fight, meanwhile you were actually making all the right decisions.

Points literally mean jack kitten and should honestly just be removed.

Vargamonth.2047:

That only applies to full premades.
With the first season system, someone with a too high MMR would have been outweighted by placing a lower MMR player on his team.

The really good players who advanced fast during season one, did it mostly not only on full premade but also including a smurf account which lowered their mean MMR and division placement.
Even if they did it to lower stupidly high queue times, it definitely also helped on having even overall easier games.

thats just false. I watched plenty of soloq streams that proved otherwise.

pls….ignore beast for the love of..

You don’t.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Vargamonth.2047:

If the MMR is accurate, there’s no reason for good players to have an above 50% winrate. They’re being matched against players who in theory are as good as them.

If anyone gets a steady over 50% winrate, someone in the same MMR bracket needs to be necessarily below 50%.

It’s the same situation for everybody but the very top and the very bottom.

Except that’s not how things work in real life. Above assumes an infinite skill range with an infinite player base constantly playing so you can get the best possible match up.

The real story is that good players don’t always have peers on to challenge them. So MM matches them against someone a step below. Hence, they end up with a greater than 50% win rate.

I mean I don’t even need to prove it, look at how much faster the good players progressed back when it was meant for 50-50. They obviously had much much higher win rates than 50%. The actual legendary players got it weeks before all the grinders got it.

Well glossing over the dirty afk part…..

sounds legit.

Silverstone.4539:

So the only way to get better MMR is to not play right now?! that’s madness. is MMR ever cleared? like a fresh start? its sounds like they are forcing the responsibility of the other 4 people of team actions on to me. solo queuing I don’t know them, I have no say how they play, why am I punished for their indiscretions? if I was on a premade team, that would be fair enough, but not solo.

MMR is also class based. So you could change to a new class at some point if you want a fresh MMR. Also different MMR for ranked and unranked.

Vargamonth.2047:

How does season one MM prevent bad players from climbing up to legendary if they’re matched against other bad players for fair matches, so around a 50% winrate?

With the first season system, everybody but the very top and very bottom plays on equal ground.
I would even say that it’s easier to climb with a below average MMR, since premades hardly play like premades in those brackets and performing good against them usually granted multiple pips (which is what makes players advance on the 50/50 scenario).

bad players = 50/50 win loss or worse. They might get a win streak out of amber, but they will go on lose streaks too and go back into amber.

50/50 = no progression.

Previously bad players could grind it out. They could wait for a 5 win streak basically and tier up. That wouldn’t happen with these changes. The losses would out weigh the win streaks.

Not sure how to make it any clearer.

Bad players will have low MMR and have a 50% or less win rate which means no progression.

Good players will be above 51% and progress until competition is too tough for them.

Starting at low MMR you’ll have worse team mates if you can truly carry anyway. Its not like MMR is static, it will also raise or lower to become more accurate. But that can only happen if you have even match ups…

Krysard.1364:

So ppl get matched against players of their same rating? I feel like this wouldnt solve anything but the infamous “mmr tank”

Uh there wouldn’t be tiers or stop gaps anymore to let you (see 2). So you couldn’t freely tank your MMR. You’d drop alllllll the way back down if you lose games on purpose and have to claw your way back up with worse teammates. Gluck with that.

Plykin.5764:

snip

They actually do something fairly similar already.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

The first phase, called filtering, gathers players based on their current MMR and Ladder Points.

Your ladder ranking is determined by how many points you are awarded throughout a season.

You are awarded points for playing well, and often, and sometimes even if you lose a game.

Fluffball.8307:

Resetting MMR isn’t the solution though, then you have people on their first game playing on the same team as pro leaguers. It takes forever to sort out because people are getting carried hard, and everyone is miserable because for most of us, your teammates are almost guaranteed to be significantly worse than you are.

The way it is, you progress based on your own merit and we don’t have to deal with newbies.

Uh except many of us ARE being paired with newbies and don’t understand why.

In fact, the first day, I was getting paired with both newbs and pros. I had thought MMR was reset till I came here.

PS before you imply I am a newb as well :P I’ve played since beta, really started PvPing last two years, run meta builds, pay attention to mini map, etc. Not saying I’m amazing or anything, but at least average.

1. Match making rating. No.

2. Your team – by MMR. Enemy team, not by MMR but by division.

3. yes

Good suggestion and one which has been around since s1.

Another one is that there is so little backward progress. The heart of the problem is that bad players can slowly grind there way up by waiting for lucky win streaks. And couldn’t fall back. Well to fix that they practically removed MMR, but that obviously removes all fun and sportsmanship from PvP. What they need to do is just implement backward progress (all tiers/divs losable) in all divs (even amber tiers) so that bad players can’t slowly grind there way up. Then you can have normal MMR matches again.

I don’t know about dragon but a min rank might be nice. Problem is because of dailies and custom arena so many PvErs are dragons anyways. I am not sure how much it’d help.

1. Revert MM changes/bring back season one MM

2. Make ALL tiers/divs losable. (yes even amber tiers)

This makes fights fair again. Keeps bad players from climbing into legendary.

hotcarl.8621:

I thought that in the new season, MMR doesn’t affect matchmaking, and the matches are made based on where players are in their divisions. Am I wrong?

MMR effects what team mates you get. Just not who you face…hence

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Everyone took a break, because ranked was disabled and MMR from ranked and unranked is separated (as far as i know).

Then that makes no sense. I last played in ruby, could have gone further but was playing other games. And was being paired with fairly decent players and had decent 400-500 games. People knew their jobs, didn’t do crazy dumb stuff. All meta builds.

I am not saying I am good, just average. But the players it has me playing with now…they are brand new to PvP or primarily play PvE. Players who have no idea how the map mechanic works (tranq, treb, beast, lord..) So I go on 10-12 loss streaks. But if I’m even average skill I should be 50-50 ish.

Blackdagger.9670:

no I did not take a break before season start. I was playing unranked on that offseason period and was winning many games, was playing with %70 win ratio there. Now I lose 6-7 in a row. Doesn’t make any sense.

Strange. One more theory I just read. Brand new players were given average MMR coming into this season instead of starting at 0 (no idea if this is fact).

So if you happen to be average or a bit above average and happened to get paired with them in your first few games, well you’d just keep dropping and be more likely to get worse players.

I’m pretty stumped though, because I am at least average. I use meta builds, I pay attention to the minimap, I don’t do stupid stuff, I’ve PvP’d for 2 years, and have played all classes except warrior. So I should be winning at least 50-50. But like you go on 10-12 loss streaks. and am paired with brand new players that are fighting off point, don’t know what tranq buff is, go ham and die on beast, spam their abilities, etc.

is the title supposed to be “Petty losers” ?

Evan Lesh.3295:

These are all good explanations (and questions) :]

Is there MMR decay system in place?

If so this kind of screws over vets that took a break right before the season started, as they will get put with noob team mates facing vet teams. How are they expected to raise their div or MMR that way? MMR is based on even matches, which is the exact opposite of what we have now.

Blackdagger did you take a break for a few weeks or a month right before the season started?

I did and like you I am a pvp vet and am getting matched with brand new players. I may not be legendary, but I am certainly above these team mates I see over and over.

My theory is they implemented the MMR decay. Take a break right before season starts, your rating is reset, and you get put in with the noob teams.

Obviously we’re never going to be able to bring our MMR back up facing any team with noobs as team mates as normally MMR is based off even matches… fail system…

I’m just done for the day. Can’t leave map.

it was also me an emerald with all ambers vs all emeralds and one amber. I just don’t see why my team couldn’t have gotten even one (more) emerald. MM seems way worse, not improved.

GG anet.

Cynz.9437:

I am here because i can and because i got nothing to do between relative short (thankfully) queues.

Touche.

Anyways I didn’t mean to imply they are all top level players that deserved it. Only that they do have at least some skill. Certainly above emerald. Although I totally forgot about SH (never play it)…was thinking conquest when I originally said that stuff…

You have no idea the people I’ve been paired with. Its been a nightmare. Like legit, deserve to be in amber players. And we’re facing the equivalent of diamond.

Cynz.9437:

not really, last season you could make premade with certain builds and farm SH; even pve heroes could do it

So people formed PvP teams and …completed it…yea… What is it that makes people think a team invalidates skill? I guess all those ESL Pros are actually trash cause they play on teams huh.

So you got yours in like a a day or two of play riight? if its stupidly easy.

Why are you even here, this is totally off subject.

Cynz.9437:

you do know getting backpack (which actually not legendary) was stupidly easy?

“stupidly easy” is a huge exaggeration. And compared to the PvErs on my teams they mine as well be ESL pros.

Can you rush out the quickness-stomp/res change? And not wait?

Its hard to tell how things will pan out until things like that get normalized.

Slim said it best. In this meta, thieves tend slow down a defeat or speed up a win. They rarely carry a team. They aren’t optimal in all situations (mostly bad for come backs when there are no good fights to choose.)

I disagree about revs tho (even tho yes they do definitely need toning down) I don’t think revs are simply taking their spot. Revs are bruisers and thieves are more true assassins. Revs also can’t disengage to decap as well as a thief.

Its just that there are far too many bunkers, rezers, and cleave. When I play thief I get a lot of people down but often have to retreat because of cleave and they are instantly (practically) res’d.

Cedric Ambidexter.9174:

Hi,

No I didn’t say those things.

All quotes taken from your thread.

Cedric Ambidexter.9174:

A lv13 revenant is doing more damage to a lv11 monster than a lv54 mesmer…
…and doing missions all over the map, and you can’t even kill a lv11 enemy quickly?
I should be able to kill that monster in 2 seconds.
Seriously, when I’m done with this game I’m giving it to my cousins….
Everyone is claiming that I need the right gear
What kind of perfection in build do I have to slave to create in order to be tougher than a level 13 character…
…relates DIRECTLY to my post is when I am being forced, without question, to be spoon-fed by a new game build
I am a new player, and I’m not ashamed of it. I won’t be levelling up my gear so often though, as I prefer to rush to level 80
I know this game has a lot of depth, but I’m the type of guy who prefers to get to the top level before investing in those things.
I’m just stumped that I can’t easily kill a level 5 monster
So, you’re saying I need a degree in game mechanics to be able to effectively ‘kill’ a low-level monster?

You admitted in your thread a week ago that this game’s equipment/builds were too complicated for you to optimize or understand.

Now since that week, apparently you’ve gained mastery over the game and the MMORPG genre enough to be giving game design advice? Impressive!

Early on I remember phantaram saying the pros tested stronghold and it was dumb because you ended up with the same strategies/games every time…

Except now that’s how conquest is…

Overwatch had a thing like that with rating user negatively (wouldn’t pair you with them in MM) last beta.

Guy started rating everyone negatively every time he lost or disliked a game for any reason.

He ended up not being able to play/couldn’t queue (hour + queues.) lol

So ya, it just doesn’t work.

Spartacus.5243:

Check out my stream

Avg ruby thief that constantly derides and trash talks his own team with childish bigotry. That was only after 3 mins of watching.