Guild Wars 2

this is probably a new one if you arent trolling. havent heard of it before.

Exciton.8942:

I can also interpret it as the encounter mechanics are not difficult enough for players to go a bit tankier either through traits or gear.

if you can go a bit “tankier” it will be easier.

The one to Rule.2593:

If you don’t do it on the wall he moves too much on phase one and you waste too much time trying to catch up and do damage so he will enrage. Have you actually done vale guardian? because it sounds like you have no idea how to actually beat him efficiently.

nope i havent killed vale guardian yet.

also you can tank the boss 1m away from the wall so UA works perfectly fine.

The one to Rule.2593:

The math is against you unless you are talking about Glint. that is the only time it’s a dps increase, i don’t know how many times I have to state this in the same thread. On shiro 3 auto attacks and I can do 30k damage in less time than UA can hit all hits and do the same amount of damage, It’s simply a dps loss on shiro. Due to not having quickness on glint it’s an increase there only.

ofc i am talking about glint, as stated above. on the other hand if your chronos arent too stubborn and use the right build you dont really have to rely on shiro.

The one to Rule.2593:

Even then though you lose a lot of team support by not using facets which is what people like having revs around for anyway.
I call bs on your first statement.

you wont lose any team support. all you have to bring is fury and facet of nature in key moments. and its up to you if you trust my first statement or if you dont, as it is up to you if you want to use the max potential of the class or not.

1. you dont want to run out of energy and turn on all of your facets. its the worst you can do and i dont care what obal says in his guide. we compared combat logs and usually i was 1-2 million dmg ahead of other revs who used obals rotation (not only because of the rotation, but the rotation is a big part of it).
and what is even the reason for turning on facet of strength for example, when you should have a PS warrior anyway?

2. you wanna use the dmg part of equilibrium, which means dont run out of energy because it doesnt make sense anyway and instead hit for 15k+ every second legend swap.

3. yes, in glint, or in mallyx.

if you camp autoattack on rev your dps will be just as valuable as the dps of a pug guardian.

The one to Rule.2593:

NoTrigger.8396:

Misguided.5139:

The one to Rule.2593:

NoTrigger.8396:

rotten.9753:

Sword has no damage increase on its non auto attack.

i really wonder how people can still believe that.

The only time it is a dps increase is when on glint, when on Shiro it’s a loss due to UA not being affected by quickness

Even on Glint it isn’t necessarily true. I was actually testing this out yesterday and had slower times (2x indestructible golem) when I used UA. I’m not certain but I think this might have been due to a combination of the Assassin’s Annihilation trait and UA screwing up your positioning.

UA is less vuln than autoattack. so your results when testing it on the golem dont make any sense. and i dont know why people do not notice this.

rotten.9753:

NoTrigger.8396:

i really wonder how people can still believe that.

Care to explain then? Because I don’t see it except a case with adds and precision strikes which isn’t exactly reliable.

it is reliable in every single raid boss fight.

Except vale guardian where using it will get you pushed through the wall and instakilled. Because something is reliable in certain situations doesn’t make it a dps increase. The math is simply against your statement. I mainly use it as an evade rather than for damage because it does help improve survivability.

first of all i was talking about sword 2 and secondly, dont tank the boss right at the wall then?
and how is the math against my statement when its a slight dps increase over sword auto? doesnt matter how often you use it, because even if you only use it once over AA it will still be a dps increase.

rotten.9753:

NoTrigger.8396:

it is reliable in every single raid boss fight.

Then we have a different definition of reliable.

I watched your fight with Gorseval and you used it about 10-15 times for the almost 6 minutes fight. Besides, even then, it’s not really reliable in pvp and balance touches both modes.

Second thing, whose rotation is better? Yours or obal’s? Because your rotations are different and I’d like to know which is preferred in raids. Or what is the reasoning behind them?

its an insane dps increase tho.

for the rotation, 3 questions.
why would you want to run out of energy?
why wouldnt you make use of the trait equilibrium?
why would you camp facet of strength when the party has 25 might anyway?

Misguided.5139:

The one to Rule.2593:

NoTrigger.8396:

rotten.9753:

Sword has no damage increase on its non auto attack.

i really wonder how people can still believe that.

The only time it is a dps increase is when on glint, when on Shiro it’s a loss due to UA not being affected by quickness

Even on Glint it isn’t necessarily true. I was actually testing this out yesterday and had slower times (2x indestructible golem) when I used UA. I’m not certain but I think this might have been due to a combination of the Assassin’s Annihilation trait and UA screwing up your positioning.

UA is less vuln than autoattack. so your results when testing it on the golem dont make any sense. and i dont know why people do not notice this.

rotten.9753:

NoTrigger.8396:

i really wonder how people can still believe that.

Care to explain then? Because I don’t see it except a case with adds and precision strikes which isn’t exactly reliable.

it is reliable in every single raid boss fight.

rotten.9753:

Sword has no damage increase on its non auto attack.

i really wonder how people can still believe that.

scerevisiae.1972:

actually precision becomes the better stat over ~2400 power…

you will be at 97% crit chance in a party, without a ranger. and at that point power is better.

Zargarda.2176:

Can someone give link to that video please?

https://www.youtube.com/user/rTnotrigger/videos

i only use the food in fights where you need a bit of self sustain. you can also use the 70 precision lifesteal food (its also cheaper) but due to power/critchance balance allspice cake is much better and results in higher dps.

UA is a dps increase vs single target. sword 2 is a dps increase in specific situations.

if you want to fight 20 monsters at the same time use hammer.

YuiRS.8129:

Actually Sword 1 should just be nerfed, it’s insane for a class to top DPS charts with just that.

revenants dont top the charts with just autoattack. whoever said that has no idea what he is talking about.

a while ago they talked in interviews about the masteries that you need. the information is out there.

for example:
http://massivelyop.com/2015/08/31/pax-prime-2015-guild-wars-2-is-never-getting-a-raid-finder/

or:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM8cgQ42bMQ

ualgh.1832:

I’m interested to know the reasoning for inviting a guild like DnT to test the new raid given that at least one of its members spearheaded the development of a well-known dps meter and memory-reading tool that directly violates Guild Wars 2’s Terms of Service.

I won’t link it here so as to discourage exploitation of the game, but a quick Google search reveals that Death and Taxes is heavily involved with the development and distribution of this dps meter. The creator of the program even includes a disclaimer that he is not responsible for users being banned for their use of the tool. As the application in question reads the game client’s memory, its use constitutes a flagrant violation of the Terms of Service for Guild Wars 2.

Would the community be able to get any comment from ArenaNet regarding this troubling issue?

when people outside of our guild make threads on our public forums to look for a dps meter or to present their dps meter, it does not mean we are “heavily involved” with the developement of dps meters and it does not mean we are using said tools.
before you try to claim we are guilty or something at least try to get your facts straight, because this is getting absurd.

spoj.9672:

NoTrigger.8396:

spoj.9672:

NikeEU.7690:

We aren’t going to release any videos, guides, etc for raids until multiple guilds have cleared the wing. Our goal is to preserve competition for all the guilds interested in progression and not spoil the fun of learning the fights by doing anything to taint that. We will do our best to ensure that everyone has the best experience possible in the raid, which is the whole point of having guilds invited to test these things.

I thought you guys wanted to go for world first though? Any claim to that will be tarnished by this.

in other MMOs, even if you got wf kills, what you did was post a screenshot and not upload any videos until multiple guilds killed the boss.

Thats not my point. My point was noone will take you seriously if you do get it and try to claim it. Since you get to test and prepare before everyone else.

if you or anyone else takes it serious or not is entirely up to you.

spoj.9672:

NikeEU.7690:

We aren’t going to release any videos, guides, etc for raids until multiple guilds have cleared the wing. Our goal is to preserve competition for all the guilds interested in progression and not spoil the fun of learning the fights by doing anything to taint that. We will do our best to ensure that everyone has the best experience possible in the raid, which is the whole point of having guilds invited to test these things.

I thought you guys wanted to go for world first though? Any claim to that will be tarnished by this.

in other MMOs, even if you got wf kills, what you did was post a screenshot and not upload any videos until multiple guilds killed the boss.

if you care about progression and wf kills, posting videos will result in more competition/rivalry, which is exactly what you dont want.

Miellyn.6847:

Ohoni.6057:

Single and multiplayer games follow completly different designs.

In some ways, but not in ways relevant to this discussion. They can both potentially offer multiple difficulty modes, and allow players to decide for themselves which they find appealing. If a single player game can offer two difficulty modes, and yet some players still choose the harder option, then there’s no reason MMOs cannot do the same.

I’m against multiple difficulties and they aren’t worth the cost in GW2.
ArenaNet needs to find the middle ground between challenging and accessible. There will be always people complaining it’s too hard.

And people complaining that it’s too easy. I’m very hopeful that ANet would be able to find a balanced difficulty that most players would enjoy, but I guarantee you that if they do, the hardcore raider crowd would pass it off as “too casual.” Meanwhile, if they did manage an experience that the hardcore raiders were pleased with, then most players would find it intolerable. There’s no way that they can make one mode that would satisfy the raiders AND everyone else, so I think the better solution is to give a different option to each group.

They just need to find the difficulty that suites most players. Most serious raider don’t complain it’s too easy. They just leave if the content doesn’t fit them.The complainers are players who think they need to exclude lesser skilled players. You can mostly ignore them.

the complainers are players who think everything needs to be made for them and they deserve everything without effort.

no thanks.

there is a reason why i built all of my ascended stuff and if there is one thing that this game doesnt need then it is more gimmicks.

Zenith.7301:

They’re never going to add a DPS meter because it’d reveal just how significant the disparity in class performance is. It would show the horrid job done these past years with PvE balance.

The whole point of not having meters is to keep everything obscured so that players can’t come back to developers with data to back up their complaints. Sure, people like NikeEU can make their own meter but developers can just pretend to question its accuracy or can simply look at ways to punish players announcing they’re using parsers outside the game like they did in FFXIV.

do you really think a dps meter is needed to figure out dps of every class?

Xae Isareth.1364:

I do think Revenant DPS needs to be toned down a bit. Or at least needing the player to perform a more complex rotation to achieve that DPS.

A heavy armour class which can achieve highest DPS by basically just spamming the autoattack seems a bit wrong to me.

you cant achieve the highest dps just by spamming autoattack, not even close.
and rev is balanced around the energy. you can either support alot and spam autoattack, but you wont deal top dps, or you can use your energy to achieve top dps but you wont be able to support really well.

Gaaroth.2567:

DnT calculated like always the best PvE DPS which was a Shiro/Mallyx build (shiro for IO, Mallyx for EtD) and was comparable with staff ele and sinister condi.
This was before Glint. Dunno now.

Anyway, top tier. But it’s not sure that such build will be meta ;-)
If you want the graph i need to find it somewhere burried on reddit…lemme search

shiro mallyx is not the best anymore

Bri.8354:

In raids its not only how you play that defines success, but what you play as.

people have beaten the boss with a necro in the party.

Bri.8354:

From what I could tell, the groups that beat it were fairly optimal. You don’t need a perfect team to beat it, but you do need a fairly optimized one to.

exactly. now what i dont understand is, why would people who WANT the challenging content and who WANT the difficulty not run what is effective or fairly optimal in terms of builds? that is something i will never understand, because each player who wants to beat content like that is also striving to become as good as possible at the game, which is simply not possible when you are a special snowflake or run builds that are clearly inferior compared to others just so you can say “hey im different than all of you :P”.

i mean in wow people wouldnt raid with 20 tanks or 20 healers if they take it at least a little bit serious and wanna make some progress.

optimizing your group comp, builds, dps rotation, theory crafting and all of that stuff has been and will always be part of raids and it is a requirement if you want to succeed.
if you want to beat the bosses and if you want the shiny legendary armor, then you do what it takes.
now i dont see where the problem is.

Bri.8354:

So if you could imagine, the guild who got the first kill of Vale Guardian with 1:20 remaining, which is pretty high on that scale, was just 17% less efficient, they wouldn’t have made it.

yep, but they could have been 17% more efficient than they were, easily.

for example the fastest phase 1 we had ended between 6:50 and 6:45 left on the timer.
assuming the boss has 22 million hp and phase 1 ends at 66% hp (people with dps meters said so) that means we dealt 96800 raid dps. that is less than 10k dps per player. and 10k dps is not much. and our execution, team comp and rotations were far from perfect.

this is also why i said the enrage timer should be 7 min or 6:30. but it is the first boss in the first gw2 raid after all.

Bri.8354:

The point I suppose I was trying to get across, is just that I don’t like how players can preform perfectly within the mechanics of the fight, but lose because they hit the enrage timer. To me it feels unnatural to hit that type of barrier and how you deal with it isn’t great either, being encouraged to kick players because another profession can preform their role more efficiently.

if players perfom perfectly, then why wouldnt they run at least halfway decent builds?
also if you have to kick players because another profession deals more dps then i can assure you players in your group do not perfom perfectly.
the problem you are trying to talk about here does not even exist tbh.

and anet will nerf the +500% dmg enrage, so even if you hit the 8 min mark, you will still have a chance.

also if the enrage timer is not “strict” people will be able to run more tanky builds and have a much easier time.
the enrage isnt just a dps check, it checks everything, execution, dps, teamwork, coordination, buffs etc

i have one question for you tho, if the timer is as strict as you say, how do you explain it that people with suboptimal group comps, suboptimal gear and suboptimal rotations beat the boss with like a min left on the timer?

spoj.9672:

Bri.8354:

Nokaru.7831:

Bri.8354:

Enrage timers in their current state are nothing but a DPS test. Players can have the mechanics down, but if their damage isn’t high enough, the timer kicks in and wipes them all.

This argument is just not true. If you’re getting downed constantly, get constantly teleported away from the Unstable Energy Spikes, or send more people than is necessary to soak the Distributed Magic, all of these are poor play and bad strategy which the enrage will punish you for.

This might come as a surprise to everybody, but damage matters. Damage is actually one of the three pillars of the soft Trinity: damage, support, control. For some reason people think damage does not matter. It does.

If the group is having that much trouble already they won’t stand a chance once enrage starts building up.

My problem is with skilled groups who are surviving well and managing the mechanics, but lack the highly optimized team required to meet the DPS requirement. If they play well enough to survive the ramped up mechanics, they should be able to continue fighting, letting their skill make up for their lack of optimization.

If they are truly skilled then they should have no problem sacrificing some of their defence for more damage to actually beat the timer. That is the entire point of it. Without it its not actually difficult. Because surviving on its own is easy. And dps on its own is also easy. Difficulty comes from trying to do good damage under constant pressure. The timer forces players to require that damage. Without it there is no true difficulty.

i completely agree with spoj here.

this will also result in what you guys call “dps race”. because people will try to make the fight and each phase as short as possible so they dont have to deal with more difficult versions of the phases.
im not saying this is a bad idea, but it wont change much.

what would be cool however is your idea in combination with the enrage timer.

in the end, people will always blame it on “this fight promotes zerker builds and is a dps test and i cant beat it with my build” because they were spoiled for 3 years.

Exciton.8942:

I do agree with the OP though that more damage and less HP can be more interesting. It will probably alter the optimal gear selection. We may see a bit more healing, toughness and vitality(exactly what Anet want, right?). However, the overall gameplay won’t change.

Sometimes I find this dungeon subforum kinda funny. The OP is really just offering some suggestions. However, half of the people regard it as a complaint and trying to teach the OP how2play.

his suggestions are based on groups that struggle to kill the boss before the timer runs out. and if you cant kill the boss before the timer runs out then there is far more to that than just builds and dps.

a few examples for bad execution (which results in dps loss):
- boss is kited and people dont use movement skills to catch up and dps permanently
- people get teleported (after a few attempts that shouldnt happen anymore, because you can literally moonwalk out of the aoes fast enough and dont even have to dodge them)
- people who soak the aoes dont dps correctly (or at all) while running from aoe to aoe.

now if you watch the kill/attempt videos you will realize that the examples even happened there and yet people had more than enough time left on the timer.
the enrage timer isnt as tight as people say and preventing the things i described above is what people in other MMOs take for granted.

Demented Yak.6105:

NoTrigger.8396:

also glint/shiro isnt optimal (for max dps).

Could you please explain that? I can’t see what other combinations would do more dps.

Jalis has low dps.
Ventari has no dps.
Mallyx has some decent condition damage but with just torment (and a little poison), I can’t see how it would out-do impossible odds or the boons/active effects from facets.

you will max every boon anyway if people run the correct builds. for dungeons shiro could be the best options. for raids? i dont think so.

i wont give you my build now because i wanna do more testing and have math to back it up.

i had 10k + autoattacks in the raid, 39k sword 3 and about 17.5k axe 4 (second hit). you can do like 2 autoattacks per second (without quickness). now think about the rift damage from the autoattack and the burning from the glint skill and add it on top.

rev is top dps in PvE.

Vogel.9613:

While seeing some gameplay of the rev in the beta first Vale Guardian kill in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX3Z21sgYQA&feature=youtu.be
I noticed that the “rotation” to keep the highest DPS by this player is:

1. Glint: upkeep Darkness and Strenght, use Elemental Blast, then Autoattack
2. Switch to Shiro, Impossible Odds then Autoattack
3. back to 1.

He never uses Sword 2 or 3 and only switches to staff for the breakbar.

After betatesting the Rev I was under the impression that it is a fairly complex class, but seeing this simple rotation being the most effective I was let down a bit. Even the Guardian rotations are more complex. What do you guys think? Is it ok to just use autoattack or is it sad that there is no real reason to use the other weapon skills/sets?

Keep in mind, I’m talking about PvE endgame content, where the focus is to maintain the highest DPS. You could make an argument abut using UA as an evade and other skills in different situations, but If you don’t need them in Raids, where else?

the “perfect” dps rotation is more complex than that. the dps rotation you have seen in the video is not the optimal one. also glint/shiro isnt optimal (for max dps).

people havent figured out the class yet.

wait for class/build guides after hot release.

Minos.5168:

TL;DR: I’d suggest buffing damage to ensure this doesn’t just become 9 Zerker, 1 tank/healer.

before it was 5 berserker focused on dps.

now it is 1 player who can tank, 1 player who heals, 8 players focused on group support and dps.
it is not different in other MMOs in 10 man raids.

now would be a good time to understand the differences between the gw2 combat and trinity MMO combat.

and as i said in another thread, before people complain about the timer they should focus on clean execution. if they get a clean execution done and still cant beat the boss, then they can try to use better builds.
everyone who wants to beat the boss and everyone who likes challenging content doesnt have a problem with changing their build to what is “optimal” or at least better than what they are currently running.
being a special snowflake doesnt really help in raid content.

and using passive defense makes the fight much harder compared to dps gear?

steffen.4317:

u wouldnt be able to solo the boss with raised enrage timers. i dont even think u would be able with 5.
+ even def stats get oneshotted by for example the lightning attack.

and once and forever!! i am not completly against enrage timers. but i am against designing enrage timers on 100% dmg. u shouldnt be doomed to lose a bossfight if ur party COMPLETLY understand the mechanics and dont fail on them, only cause u did 1-40% to less dmg. alowing people to have 1 def secundary def stat, isnt gonna make them invul! wrong hits still hurt a lot.

yes the blue lightning attack oneshots you, thats exactly what the attack is supposed to do -> punish you for failing to do the mechanics.

and again the enrage timer isnt built around 10 max dps builds. people have killed the boss with one minute or more left on the timer, so even if you dont do perfect dps rotations or use the most optimal team comp there is plenty of room for error.

the enrage timer doesnt only enforce dps, it enforces good execution, well timed interrupts, coordination, teamplay, and survivability.

if you fail to kill the boss before the timer runs out you are most likely doing a lot of stuff wrong. just look at the bigger picture, each time one of your mates gets teleported its a dps loss, each time the boss is kited and you dont use your mobility skills to catch up and ensure a high dps uptime its a dps loss, and thats just two examples.

if you get a good and clean execution done and still fail to kill the boss before the timer runs out, then you can complain (or simply use better builds and team comp).
good raid bosses force you to deal as much dps as possible (and use as little defense as you can) but also make it nearly impossible for you to survive. the only solution to this is becoming a better player.

this is not a personal attack btw, its just how things in a raid environment work.

also you should be pretty happy with the current state of the fight. if this was a wildstar boss, the enrage timer would be 6:00-6:30 and each time you fail to interrupt within 3 seconds, the bosses/boss would heal himself for x% hp.

steffen.4317:

heres my feedback:

my whole group was very happy with the amount of coordination thats needed for the boss, and the dmg the boss deals. And no we didnt killed the vale guard, and that makes us cheer even more. On most times we got rekt by the mechanics.

But:
I still dont get why we have to fight against an enrage timer. why is an enrage mode even needed in a skillbased combat system. We managed to get into sec phase with 3 min time left. we got to third phase with 1 min left. on 0 we got rekt, not even getting to 50% boss hp. U always said in streams, that u want it hard, u want to break zerk meta. so why do i have to play zerk or sinister to maybe beat the enrage timer.

Such a “hard” enrage timer isnt even needed. If u want to protect raids getting tanked away by normad gear, go for 20min + timers, but dont doom people with 90% or less dmg effective builds.

So: Do u want skillbased Encounters or Dmg-race Encounters?

EDIT: When i think back, wasnt there a statement before release that said: “bosses will always try to kill u with all forces and not start dealing tons of dmg after several minutes.” ?

enrage timer is needed to force people to do a very good execution. if there wasnt an enrage timer, you could do the raid with 10 nomad guardians.

also the enrager timer isnt tight at all. a 7 min or 6:30 min enrage timer would be even better because 8 minutes is more time than a good group will ever need.

for feedback: the fight is very good in my opinion, especially for the first boss fight in the first gw2 raid ever. it just needs some fine tuning and bug fixes.

Zenith.7301:

The truth is, idiots think this will displace ele from being stacked at the expense of other classes, but it will change nothing.

Ele still has persisting flames, lava font (100% uptime fire field), and meteor shower on top of two on demand water fields, one which removes conditions, a projectile root/line of warding, glyph of lightning storm/sandstorm, and now a 90 sec cd glyph of earth elemental. And easy access to blast finishers to boot on top of doing thief/engineer level damage with the flexibility of range so they don’t need to worry about messing up max melee because they can still sit at enough of a distance and still gain all the boons.

Nothing will change unless they also touch meteor shower’s interaction with large hitbox mobs, namely capping the amount of meteors that can hit the same target, and make persisting flames not increase lava font’s duration.

good luck.

dutchiez.7502:

Remember that this is ArenaNet and they don’t do things like typical MMOs. You can’t already compare GW2 raids to “typical” raids like Wildstar and WoW. They are going to be very different.

i agree they are doing alot of things different than other mmos. but there will be alot of stuff in encounter design that people have seen in other mmos before already.

did you watch the raid trailer with the dps til last second and then jump off before the big nuke hits thing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68JGdWZng8k

the only difference here is that the boss is shielded and not the room. and when the shield is removed you will have to cc the boss in gw2 when you land on the platform again, the boss will be cced automatically in wildstar after the shield is gone.
and then there will be moment of opportunity.

some mechanics will probably be exactly the same. some might be new with parts that look familiar at least.

Jerus.4350:

So I assume you use your shield to defend whoever gets stuck in a bad spot, trying to save yours by hitting that gap aye?

yes. but if a player who is rooted is in the gap, then you have to shield him for the next wave, because the shield also removes the roots, after the flame wave hits it.

the challenge in raiding comes from learning complex stuff fast and finding answers and patterns + the teamplay. its possible to make bosses so hard that no one will ever kill them without challenging the individual player.

for example this fight doesnt require much individual skill. but in the second phase the coordination and teamplay required is so insane, that no one except enigma killed this boss in this form. and every other guild and even the devs said its impossible to kill it.

you have to kill all orbs before you run out of shields, players will get rooted, if the roots overlap the players will die. if like 2 players die you wont have enough dps. the only way to protect the players with the roots is using a shield. each player has 1 shield which can be used once, the flame wave one shots everything, unless you use a shield.

skill wont matter that much. if you can stay alive and do the mechanics you will do just as well as players who seem to be king to you. there are other things that are far more important in progression raiding or raiding in general.

attitude and atmosphere in your guild is far more important for example than having all of the good players.
you can be pretty sure that some of the people who you probably consider to be better than you will actually be the reason why their guild wont get world first.
many people in gw2 have inflated egos from running ez mode content solo or fast over the years and their egos will be the reason why some guilds are going to be on self destruction, and other guilds that no one knows will be really good.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

So it has been confirmed by a Dev that the party will not be kicked when wiped.

thats pretty obvious isnt it? it would be bad game design. if the content is halfway decent and challenging, you will wipe more than 10 times. probably around 50-60 times at least per boss. and now imagine you are fighting the third boss in the wing, you wipe, because its your first pull and you have to start all over again. how terrible and annoying would that be?

Jerus.4350:

Vox Hollow.2736:

I’m not sure ‘defense building as difficulty setting’ is really in the spirit of providing a penultimate challenge? Difficulty setting as a concept, full stop, really. The difficulty is set. It’s high.

Isn’t that the whole point?

Do you for a second believe it’ll be there? I don’t, never seen a raid at that level ever. Design it for the top 10% and the top 2% are going to be bored fast. I can tell you right now if they design it to the peak of difficulty I’ll never be beating it. I’m no Sesshi or that level player.

you dont have to be. raiding and killing ez mode bosses solo and fast are two different things with completely different requirements and speedrunning experience or solo stuff isnt going to help alot….. if the content is good.

Blaeys.3102:

At the same time, there should be ultra challenging content for people like you (and for me as well – I want that challenge).

the ultra challenging content is exactly what the raids are going to be and why they are made. i dont get why you have such a hard time to understand this.

and if you dont want that ultra challenge, like all of gw2 core game is easy, alot of content in HoT will be easy, there is so much easy stuff to do already and there will be much more. so where exactly is the problem now?

and difficulty is not a soft wall. it is a choice. if you choose to become better you will overcome the difficulty at some point. if you dont want to become better then you wont.

Ohoni.6057:

I want to be able to look at someone wearing those skins and know they are good raiders and have done raid X.

That’s what titles are for. Skins should NOT be used for this purpose.

that is your opinion and not a fact. i told you so on reddit already and i told you we will get raids. you didnt believe me, you didnt want to understand.

and here we go.

Blaeys.3102:

NoTrigger.8396:

Blaeys.3102:

Rococo.8347:

I actually feel quite positive about Raids in GW2 if ive understood how they will play out correctly – at the moment there doesn’t seem to be any places in pve where someone into being support/utility with some damage thrown in fits in.

I had a Shadow Priest in WoW and 10 man Raids just seemed to bring out the best in that type of character, it was great to switch between abit of healing cc and pew pew, but here I never felt I could build a character like that could be useful in a 5 man Dungeon, so ive just never done a dungeon ( I know you are expected to be an all rounder with no Trinity but Berserker is sill the Meta). Raid mechanics being more complex could allow for a greater selection of build types in groups.

That said Im not that great a player so my chances of getting into a Raid will probably be nil lol

Hopefully, the truly “difficult” part of raids should come in the form of achievements, hardmodes, etc. The raids themselves should be accessible by people of varying skill levels, with special acknowledgements (achievements primarily) for beating the boss faster, more efficiently, under special circumstances, etc.

Adding 10 player content into the game and then tuning it so that only a small percentage of the community can enjoy it goes against everything this game has come to represent for its many fans.

That isnt to say that the achievements/hardmodes/etc shouldn’t be BRUTALLY hard. They most definitely should be.

idk i think you fail to understand the intention behind the raids. they made them to make players who want challenge and difficulty happy. if you dont like difficulty and challenge there is and will be plenty of other stuff to do.

also they said the content will be the most difficult content in gw2 so i doubt they will split it into easy group content and challenging group content.

I love the idea of difficult content, but the addition of a new game mode (10 player instances) should be something everyone can enjoy. There is no reason that raids should only be there for a tiny percentage of the population.

There are a lot of ways to make something challenging without walling off an entire game mode from other players.

it is not only for a tiny percentage. it is for everyone who decides to raid, get better at playing the game individually and with the team and put enough effort into it.
its a MMO. every player can become good enough at the game. its just a matter if you are willing to become a very good player or not.
so please dont make it seem like someone locks you out of the content.

Blaeys.3102:

I lead a rather large guild that includes a range of hardcore and casual players. The idea of telling portions of my guild that they will never get to see specific content because they dont make playing/practicing the game their second life makes me ill.

its a computer game. 99% of what you need to be successful is your brain.

and if you are playing with people who are simply unwilling to improve as a player, well if they are unwilling to do their part while other people in the raid are doing their part, then they dont deserve to kill a boss.

yea i hope no one is going to sell spots to people who dont wanna put in the effort to clear the content.

Blaeys.3102:

Rococo.8347:

I actually feel quite positive about Raids in GW2 if ive understood how they will play out correctly – at the moment there doesn’t seem to be any places in pve where someone into being support/utility with some damage thrown in fits in.

I had a Shadow Priest in WoW and 10 man Raids just seemed to bring out the best in that type of character, it was great to switch between abit of healing cc and pew pew, but here I never felt I could build a character like that could be useful in a 5 man Dungeon, so ive just never done a dungeon ( I know you are expected to be an all rounder with no Trinity but Berserker is sill the Meta). Raid mechanics being more complex could allow for a greater selection of build types in groups.

That said Im not that great a player so my chances of getting into a Raid will probably be nil lol

Hopefully, the truly “difficult” part of raids should come in the form of achievements, hardmodes, etc. The raids themselves should be accessible by people of varying skill levels, with special acknowledgements (achievements primarily) for beating the boss faster, more efficiently, under special circumstances, etc.

Adding 10 player content into the game and then tuning it so that only a small percentage of the community can enjoy it goes against everything this game has come to represent for its many fans.

That isnt to say that the achievements/hardmodes/etc shouldn’t be BRUTALLY hard. They most definitely should be.

idk i think you fail to understand the intention behind the raids. they made them to make players who want challenge and difficulty happy. if you dont like difficulty and challenge there is and will be plenty of other stuff to do.

also they said the content will be the most difficult content in gw2 so i doubt they will split it into easy group content and challenging group content.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s not that I don’t think I’m capable of raiding, it’s that I have absolutely no interest in it under any circumstances, and hope that the developers can respect that.

they did respect that by not introducing a higher tier of gear with better stats. this way it is not required to raid to make your character as strong as possible.

Mayga.7241:

NoTrigger.8396:

it is not because it is not required to raid to get the best stats in the game and not raiding wont stop you from doing the other content that you enjoy.

Not certainly in that way. Of course, I have ascended armor. But where can I get the legendary? In the raid. So I’m forced to raid.

I ran away from WoW here, but WoW found me here? Community will be transformed, without a doubt. And not for the better. Anet made a mistake, unfortunately. We all feel its consequences.

they didnt make a mistake because the raids is what makes or breakes HoT for many people out there who are different than you.

Silverkey.2078:

I really felt they haven’t announced anything, and the trailer is even more disappointing. I guess it need to be played to be judged properly, but I was still hoping for more informations than just “10-man content”, “masteries will be useful” and “3 path in a near future, more to come”.

check the mechanic where the group has to split, like half of the raid is attacking the boss to get some extra dps done, and the other half is attacking the wall or w/e it is so the raid can escape before the big nuke hits. this mechanic alone tells you alot about their raid encounter design and you can imagine what the content has to offer.

Purple Miku.7032:

koen.4729:

this forum is starting to turn into a negativity hub

Implying it hasn’t been all along?

In all seriousness tho Adid, think about how long we’ve been waiting for these announcements. While the expansion certainly will be worth playing for most of us, does what we’ve seen really justify them taking almost a full year just to tell us about the raids?

To me it doesn’t.

i guess they didnt really know what they will call it and creating high quality raid content takes months so… i can understand them but wish they would have told us earlier it will be instanced at least.

Mayga.7241:

People are tired of the race for progress. It’s a fact. As I drove raids for many years – I know what I’m saying. People stop to enjoy the game. They see only progress. And it’s terrible. It kills everything – lore, the joy of discovery. You are needed here elitists? I am one of them, for many years was there. But I do not want all this and a lot of people also do not want to.
Particularly unpleasant decision looks legendary armor. In fact, I was forced to go to the raids.
And do not say that it is not necessary. It’s quite a necessary for anyone who wants to get a legendary armor.

it is not because it is not required to raid to get the best stats in the game and not raiding wont stop you from doing the other content that you enjoy.

Conner.4702:

lfg 10k ap need 5 war 2 guards 2 ele 1 thief, gear check

just mark my words

you can be pretty sure people wont do raid pug runs for like a year or so.

Azure.8670:

10 man is perfect. Wildstar combat system is similar to gw2 and had 40 man raids and it was a huge mdss. they lowered it to 20 and still had issues

GA is 20 man, DS was 40 and is now 20 and doesnt have any issues, Augmentors 20 is 20 man as well. the only issue about 40 man was logistical stuff.

so what exactly do you mean when you say “issues” ?

maddoctor.2738:

They missed some great opportunity to make their raids available to a lot of different skill levels but anyway we will see how they are when we see them.

the title “challenging group content” includes challenging for a reason.