Guild Wars 2

ZenonSeth

Umm…wow. You said it way better than I did. Thank you.

CET

Ehh…race has a definitive historical and social context here. The word’s meaning exists in real life and in games…they just mean different things in each. We were talking about game races, you switched to RL race examples(which isn’t the same thing), then called me out on saying races don’t exist in the first place. dot dot dot

Zaxares

I was using a more philosophical definition. I didn’t mean merely the ability to feel or perceive, but also self-awareness and the ability to reason subjectively, which actually includes sapience. So no, I wasn’t confusing sapience with sentience.

Eh…human races and game races aren’t the same thing, you can’t really equate the two. Humans are the only sentient species on Earth, I didn’t say race. Humans never treated other sentient species as animals because there are none. We’ve treated humans like animals, and animals like animals, and even animals like humans lol.

If anything, it’s a misnomer to call dwarves, elves, etc. races at all. They are entirely different species, not a different race, if we look at it through RL eyes…which was sorta my point there.

At any rate, I’m not angry at ANet at all for saying humans sinned or whatever, of course they did. It’s the way in which they wrote it that is a problem. Heck even I could come up with a more believable and legitimate storyline for GW2 that had the Charr coming into their own(which ironically I think it is their ultimate destiny in Tyria to surpass humans). But the lopsided and irresponsible way in which they did it was way off the mark.

*CET

Oh I don’t think GW1 humans are morally superior to everyone, only that they were the ones chosen by the authors to populate the world of Tyria…and to be seen as the single civilized race of importance. Whether or not ANet had always thought about adding other races is irrelevant when discussing humanities contextual role as the only protagonist in the the GW1 story.

The Charr had originally been written as the “big bad guys” so there was no need to derive any empathy towards them as civilized folk. They were savages that would kill you at first sight, just like the Grawl and Ogres would. Wearing Charr armor back then would be just the same to me as wearing a harpy claw around your neck or something.

Now if one wants to rewrite a primary antagonist into a primary protagonist…you better be very careful in how you do that. In my opinion, they did a lousy job of it. Both in how artificially advanced the Charr were written, as well as how poorly the humans were made to look because of it. I find it insanely disrespectful that humans are made out to be the bad guys in the whole Ascalon fiasco. Villifying one race in order to elevate another is not the right thing to do.

It’s difficult comparing fantasy game races to real life since humans are currently the only sentient species on Earth. Instead of the black and white separation that makes in real life, fantasy races have a giant grey area in terms of sentience. It just depends on how they were written. Legolas and Gimli had a game of Who can kill the most orcs!, but I doubt you’ll find anyone lamenting the atrocities committed against the orcs of Middle-earth by evil humans. -_-

I would actually say that the Centaurs and Tengu of GW1 presented a much better case for “playerhood” than the Charr did. They were minor antagonists at best, and didn’t have such a huge negative connotation attached to them. Not sure why these obvious choices were bypassed in favor of a race that was bound to create some major conflicts with the GW1 playerbase, not to mention storyline.

Eh…I don’t think the land itself meant anything to them, no. They wanted to bring down the wall because there were plump humans on the other side of it. The descendants of the same ones that pushed them north a thousand years ago…Charr never forgave humans for that.

It wasn’t even called Ascalon back then, the humans(or the gods) named it that. Where does it say the Charr had any emotional or cultural connection to that land?? They were nomadic, and used the land of Ascalon much like the Native Americans used the Great Plains…for food and warfare. It had zero socio-cultural value to the Charr, at least none that has ever been written about.

And where does it say the last Khan-Ur was assassinated by a human? Or that the last Khan-Ur was a shaman for that matter? lol

I would grant you that the humans did push Charr borders though, my point was that Charr probably considered their borders to be wherever they happened to be walking on any given day.

You’re right, they occupied most of the area that came to be known as Ascalon. Owning it is a different ball of wax, and implies a sense of permanence. Saying humans pushed out the Charr from one of their major hunting grounds has a different meaning than saying they pushed them out of Charr land. It’s a subtle difference, but important because it makes the Charr claim to the land less legit.

Did humans encroach within Charr borders? If you were a Charr, definitely…they considered everything within sight to be theirs. If you were human, yes too…but I doubt they ran into much moral quandry about pushing north some nomads to settle a previously unsettled land.

LowestTruth.2635:

Obsidian.1328:

I refer you all to this…

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/popvssodamap.gif

Man, Alaska is quad-polar.

Ikr?

And apparently St. Louis thinks it’s part of New England. Explains sooo much.

brought to you by the Kansas City Arch Committee(KCAC). An organization dedicated to relocating the STL Arch to its rightful place in Independence, MO

I refer you all to this…

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/popvssodamap.gif

RyuDragnier.9476:

Actually Obsidian, we’re pretty solid in WvW, because you’re either solo fighting against another player solo (like in sPvP), or you’re inside the zerg firing on targets and taking down things (like everybody else).

Well I’m rarely in the zerg…but really anyone can contribute to that. Solo is a different story. But I wouldn’t say 1v1 in WvW is like sPvP, the surroundings are a lot different, and make for a more mobile playstyle. Not saying that’s good or bad, only that pets have a lot tougher time connecting with hits when you have basically unlimited space to maneuver. They have improved a little…but I don’t see them ever becoming a huge part of a ranger’s dps in W3 simply because it’s the AI attacking and not a human player.

Rizzy.8293:

Ascalon was charr land, but the problem was the charr were too busy killing each other that they didn’t notice the humans setting up camp and driving warring war bands off the land.

Its the whole palestine israel issue.

it’s even named after a biblical location.

On the one hand, you have the natives, who have always been there but never utilized it.
And on the other you had immigrants who moved in and set up a new way of life and culture for hundred of years.

That’s a stretch…

For one thing, the Charr were nomadic. They were said to raid areas all around the Blazeridge Mountains, which is their supposed homelands. Ascalon, and probably a lot of other areas, were hunting/killing grounds for them. No one ever asks why there is zero trace of them ever having lived in Ascalon during GW1. No ruins, no rubble, no nothing. It’s because they didn’t live there.

It would be similar to some random civilization pushing into the Russian steppes during the Mongolian’s golden age. Yeah it “belonged” to the Mongolians at the time, but it certainly wasn’t a part of their ancestral homeland by any means. Ascalon was simply within the extent of their sphere of influence, and not something they had any significant historical claim on.

It serves the GW2 writer’s well to paint it another color though. Rytlock’s claim that the “humans drove us out and built Ascalon on top of it” is a lot of storybook bravado. The “it” was empty land, it’s not like they had settlements there. Being on the southern fringe of the Charr terriroty, at most there would have been a few hunting camps around.

Lol…well, it would be cool to watch bots get vaporized by him now. Especially with the stellar graphics.

Umm…because he’s too busy"Dhuuming" bots and griefers? He must be exhausted with so many more players in GW2. =D

WHO LIKES POP-TARTS!?!

Dolyaks do that’s who. Be advised…I’m currently in negotiations with Professor Yakkington himself using Pop-tarts as payment for supply runs.

FYI, Yakk has 100k health, 1k armor, and a permanent retal buff.

Neural.1824:

I’ll call a spade a spade.

“hardcore” is a term most often used by individuals who feel the need to assert some sort of superiority over others in an effort to prove to themselves that they are smart, faster, or just “more manly” than others.
“Hardcore” is “I PvP, you don’t, therefore I am better than you in RL”,
and of course there’s the large segment of the gaming community that thinks “hardcore” is forcing PvP on people who do not want to PvP.

This past month has been a deluge of threads on this forum trying to water that down and blurr it with what is actually dedication.

“Hardcore” has always been about the ego and self glorification.

Hmm, I would respectfully disagree. I’m mostly casual myself, but I don’t think hardcore has to necessarily have a negative connotation attached to it. It’s just a crazy-high level of intensity. :P Your definition sounds more like “elitist” to me. Just my two cents though.

ZenonSeth

Heh, I had never thought of that possibility. I can see how that might be weird for peeps. I was more a “Devona” person than a “Gwen” person though.

Yeah…by forcing this ghost predicament on GW1 players, they kind of struck a touchy cord. The Charr just happen to be intimately tied to the birthplace of many GW1 players. First impressions tend to stay with you for a long time, it’s unfortunate that ANet didn’t see this particular situation as too much of a problem. Or maybe they did and thought a healthy dose of controversy would be a good thing. I just think they think bringing in new believers into the fold trumps placating old vets any day. Am I wrong?

We skin cattle and wear their flesh for a fashion statement. I don’t see all that much difference between them I guess.

Interesting quote, never seen that one before. It pretty much sums up a lot of what I’m talking about though. My point is, if GW1 lore was so well-received and the game in general had such a loyal following, why bring in technology in the first place? Too many people ask what the new content is, and not enough ask why the new content is even here. They had to have a reason to do it. Aside from some personal creativity, it’s my belief that the addition of the 4 new playable races(along with some over-zealous moral underpinnings) is the main reason they did so.

I do know for a fact that having non-human playable races was always at least in the back of the dev’s minds, even during Prophesies. At the time they didn’t know if it would be very successful and wanted to fully develop one culture(human) instead of partially developing many. It could have really watered down the story of GW1…kind of like it is in GW2 to be honest. :/

Personally, I think the new staff both a) didn’t realize what a good thing they had going with how GW1 was playing out being all “human-centric” and b) had a lot of pressure from NCsoft to both produce a cash cow, and stay away from any references to real-world cultures that “might” be offensive in the slightest. Not sure what the fuss was about though, I don’t remember any problem with that sort of thing in GW1.

“…natural progression of research and development” -I find that part comical seeing as the human and Norn cultures look almost exactly the same tech-wise as they did in GW1. And the Asura have barely advanced. Yeah, yeah, the “athiests make better scientists” argument is whack. There’s very little “natural” about the tech progression in this game.

Guild Wars was such an imaginative and unique world. Sure, it wasn’t the only one to go all “human-centric.” But is was one of the very few that pulled it off well. And it even managed to do that while diverging from so many classic D&D-style fantasy tropes and forging it’s own path. Aside from the lore, the combat system(antiquated engine aside) and skill/class customization were strokes of genius. GW2 may not have a true trinity(still better to have a guardian in dungeons though), or a huge gear-grind, but its heart and soul sold itself out to “mainstream mmo’s” years ago.

I don’t think hard-core = addicted. There are plenty of casuals who play long hours who could hardly be called hard-core. “Casual” is more a style of play rather than an indication of hours played.

I would consider “hard-core” to be the dedicated PvPers and daily lvl 50+ Fractal runners. Basically anyone who needs to feel really challenged in order to enjoy the game.

Meh, the old Charr would burn anyone for gits and shiggles. The modern Charr are grossly artificial. I’d rather not dig up this dead-horse argument again, but I refuse to buy into the “reinvented” Charr the same way I refuse to buy into the “reinvented” crazy Adelbern. They were both done for the same reason: to market a new playable race. Not for continuity, not for additional lore, and not for some “long-hidden storyline that is only now unfolding.” It was done to bring in more consumers(money).

Ever wonder why ANet chose such a long time(250 years) between the games? Because if they didn’t none of this “engineering Charr” stuff would be believable. You’re pretty much right about humans and Charr being two apex predators, the real difference between them is one is civilized and the other is savage. Modern lore notwithstanding.

ANet isn’t trying to continue this great Tyrian fantasy experience, the’re trying to reinvent it. It’s evident in both the decisions they made with the games’ story and mechanics, as well as decisions they are making post-release. And so far they are succeeding in it. Anyone who thinks GW2 is a legitimate spiritual successor to GW1 should have their head examined. The Charr are just one of the most obvious representations of this change, and thusly get called out on it a lot.

I’ll troll about anything I find disingenuous or backhanded in relation to the lore of first game, precisely because ANet said the lore was one of the few things they promised to honor. Finding every available ambiguous loophole or omission in the story to perpetuate a radically different narrative isn’t “staying true” to the Tyria of GW1. It’s intellectual highway robbery.

To stay on topic…yeah, kinda sucks for those ghosts.

@Zaxares
Historically all Charr were on the same page when it came to killing humans, it didn’t take any convincing from the Titan’s to blitz Ascalon. Using the Flame Legion as a scapegoat(and taking a lot of the blame away from ordinary Charr) was an invention of the GW2 writers.

@Dustfinger
True…but they would still burn her alive, if only for gits and shiggles. Some races just want to see the world burn…

The races(Norn, Asura, etc.) form the cultural distinctions in GW2, not the various human cultures. ANet doesn’t really care all that much for GW1 prerogatives concerning the various characteristics of the human kingdoms in Tyria. They made all humans “northern European” because apparently they think it’s a nice neutral base color.

The new content would make sense if it was a relaxing break from the rest of the game. But it’s not…it’s the same stuff just dressed up in 80’s graphics. 90% of the game is themepark, teensy silliness that really only appeals to a younger audience. They threw in this 8-bit stuff as a nice joke, and it may be fun to play for a little while, but it doesn’t make up for its lack of good content.

Mostly I have issue with it being called “Guild Wars 2” in the first place. It is so far removed from the spirit of the original that it’s not even on the same planet. If they didn’t plan on continuing in that tradition, they should have named it something different. It’s almost insulting to the creators of the first game.

Ravion Hawk.4736:

zityz.6089:

Yo dawg Y u gotz no orcz or elfz in dis gaem? Dis gaem weeksauz

We do…

They are called Ettins/Jotuns and Sylvari.

They are Charr and Sylvari.

Same as Sparrow’s response, I have no idea why they even introduced the 4 other races when human cultural diversity in GW1 filled the same niche. That’s one thing that made it great imo, that almost anyone from around the world could at least partially identify with a human kingdom or faction.

Personally, I feel like a foreigner in Tyria when I play a non-human. :/

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

I have 3 level 80 rangers. SB/Axe trap, zerker lb/sb, GS/SB tanky dps. I regret nothing. The class has a high skill cap, partly due to the pet management. Watch videos of other rangers playing and try to pick out the little details that make them good at what they do.

Every death is a chance to analyze the cause. Did you get outplayed? Did you get countered? Did you make a mistake? Try this next time.

I would go further and say it has a “high reaction-time cap.” A lot of times I know what to do…I just don’t do them in time normally. Could be my lack of a lot of keybinds I suppose, but I just can’t seem to react fast enough with my keys. Too much liquor in my youth mayhap? Or too old?

I grow old, I grow old
I shall wear the bottom of my trousers rolled!

How in the heck can a grenade be lobbed as far as a longbow arrow?…

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Racism, racism everywhere..

Seriously though, what does it matter?

It’s really “species-ism.”

Racism is between humans.

Yeah…I was getting 16 fps by myself in my Hall of Monuments though…

Yeah…

I knew my computer wasn’t the best for this game, but I thought it wasn’t near the worst either. Since launch I was getting @35 fps on lowish settings. I was fine with that really. The only time it dropped significantly was during events like the Ele boss in Metrica and W3 zergs.

Since the patch it’s been a steady12-15. I switched my Render Sampling to “Subsample” and got 10 more fps out of it but, the game now looks like a fuzzy cartoon.

I was under the impression culling was removed only for W3, did they change anything in the PvE zones?

lothefallen

Ditto

I have limited experience with MMO’s, so take my opinion with a grain of salt…

Graphics: A- I would have given it a solid A, it’s friggin gorgeous, but it’s that sheer beauty that contributes to lag and culling issues…especially in W3. I applaud them for wanting the game to be playable on mid-range systems, but the graphical clarity lends itself to higher-end systems. Turning the graphics down to a minimum is kind of a bummer. Also, the pyrotechnics from a lot of skills are too gaudy.

Character Customization: C+ If I had to rate this on visual appearance alone, I’d give it a B+ or maybe A-, but how you look is only part of it. The trait system alone is not nearly enough for players to have solid customization of their characters. There are no attribute adjustments, and no real 2ndary abilities and talents(do the personality options do anything?). Add to this the fact that you can’t choose your first 5 skills(your weapon does) and you’re left with 5 utilities for variety. Crafting is very nice, although it doesn’t feel unique to your character really. And no mounts(yes…I know that’s what the waypoints are for). What’s up with all the pirate clothes? o.0

General Gameplay: A- I’m talking mostly PvE here. The maps are well thought-out, waypoints are logically placed, npc’s are easy to find, map icons simple and concise, it runs smooth unless you’re in a large DE. Moving while attacking has got to be the single biggest “omg this is so simple but awesome!” improvement. DE’s are pretty cool, even if they repeat often. Scaling is also very nice. Would have given it a A if they had fixed right-click targeting…or even addressed it. Y u no like mouse options ANet?!

User Interface: A Love these guys for this. Controls are easy to understand, the Options Menu is practical, and the “deposit all” option is a godsend. Basically, they’ve eliminated almost all of the annoyances in navigating menus. It’s easy as pie.

Combat: B The high value placed on mobility in this game is, I think, a great feature. Dodging, cross-profession combo’s, blocking, condition effects all lend themselves towards a very active combat environment. The skills themselves are pretty cool mechanically. Dungeon mob/boss mechanics can cross the line from challenging to annoying though. PvP is too zerg-dominated from a W3 point of view, and I think in general damage is a touch too high…you shouldn’t die in 2 seconds flat with 3 people on you(guardians and bunker ele’s notwithstanding :P). And stealth?…I’ll just mention it and leave it at that.

Personal Story: C- I don’t like saying it because I really liked the GW1 storyline, but I just can’t find much to like with it here. It’s whimsical, un-engaging, and rather childish. The 3 Orders don’t really mean anything, and the Zhaitan fight was a big let-down. I can tell they put a lot of work into incorporating the non-human races into the fold, but it felt contrived and forced. They should have stayed with the cinematics instead of the 2-person conversation screen. The mentors were meh(I haven’t tried with Tybalt yet), and dead before you get to know em really. I think I actually miss Koss…

It is the best mmo I’ve ever played though.

The spider that immobilizes! No, it missed.
The owl that chills! No, it missed.
The wolf that knockdowns! No, it missed.

A: The spirit bird you see when you “Swoop” with the Greatsword.

The Crystal Desert, and especially the Arid Sea zone with that giant statue that falls down, was a wonderful area for solitude. You could really feel the wind in your hair and the sand between your toes there.

Also, “The Falls” in Maguuma, “Anvil Rock” in Northern Shiv, Shing Jea Island, and Istan.

Why can’t there be a more practical reason? If they decided to make the sun rise and set faster than normal(so someone only able to play at the same time everyday could see night and day), perhaps the sun is stationary for graphical reasons. If the sun did move peeps would complain about shadows not moving. And think about all of those shadows they’d have to code to move with the sun and moon. And all of the lighting effects from torches/campfires/skills/etc would have to automatically adjust to those changing lighting conditions.

I have no idea if that’s hard to do as a programmer, just my guess though.

The sinking of Orr(Cataclysm) is supposed to have happened between pre-Searing and when you pick-up the storyline again in post-Searing Ascalon in GW1. I think it’s a 1-2 year difference, during which the Charr invaded both Kryta(traveling over the Shiverpeaks) and Orr(traveling south through Ascalon, the Crystal Desert, then west to Orr.

Orr was connected to the desert area back then(like it is now?). The Cataclysm happened with the Charr basically on the doorsteps of Arah, sinking it below the ocean and taking the Charr army with it. If you could have somehow seen a worldmap in pre-Searing, it would have shown Orr as a solid land mass I presume.

Either the authors didn’t think to give any evidence of the Charr passing through the Crystal Desert, or no evidence is found of it. Did anyone else see any reference to the Charr while in that Desert? I didn’t. :/ Maybe some npc’s spoke of it offhand. /shrug

Monsoon.2589:

Open question to BlackGate Commanders,

If you really want to get back to the second spot you have to focus on taking red objectives not greens. For the last two days on several maps I have witnessed many commanders going for green targets which does not affect the amount of points red gets.

This creates an endless cycle of gaining and losing points from green. You do not have the numbers to beat green atm so why not focus on keeping the second place instead and capture points from red?

I don t get it…honestly I don t

Sidenote: Also to all servers/commanders, please cool down on the 70+ people zergs. It requires no skills and is just not sportsman like.

Maybe because rank isn’t really important.

And yeah… totally saying that because we are always 3rd. Cereally.

Yeah…there’s no manual. I guess they like you to find stuff on your own. :P

Konig

I still don’t know how you see insanity as a foregone conclusion. True, he went too far with telling Rurik to go eff himself. But he could hardly afford division within the ranks given the situation…Ascalon was hurting bad. As for being depressed after defeating the Titan’s, that’s pretty darn understandable too. His kingdom was in tatters, and his son was dead after all. That hardly makes a person insane though. It makes sense now because of the direction the books went and the fact that his “crazy old man” image is hammered into our brains in AC.

Eh, nice try but GW1 doesn’t have anything to reference to it except itself. Leaving things unexplained doesn’t matter in that sense because you aren’t referencing it to anything else. GW2 heavily borrows lore from GW1, and as such, relies on said lore as a way to legitimize itself as a valid evolution of material. If it didn’t want it to be tied to GW1, they should have called it something different and used different place/people names. Then we wouldn’t have to have this ongoing rant.

I don’t know what you mean by personal feelings with me, I’m only commenting on things that I think need to be explained. Aren’t you doing the same thing?

You’re quote, “You impute a great deal of rationalism to a man who had clearly gone mad.”
If I think this remark is unfounded, why should I take another of his ideas as valid? Savione is born out of the same minds that decided to take GW2 into all these new directions, a lot of which don’t jive with the original. Why would I consider him an expert on GW1 lore when a) he’s not real… b) he’s a part of this new face of Tyria.

In reality, I’m using objective truths to support a subjective agenda. As long as I see things that look to be contrary to the objective truth of the original game, I will subjectively call them out. Adelbern’s insanity was never a foregone conclusion until this new material came out. So if some dude who thinks that also claims it’s impossible he had an heir…I find him untrustworthy as a fictional character. Even so, the author’s take on the whole fiasco is off the mark so Savione is doubly untrustworthy.

I’m a purist of sorts. I am the same way with Faramir in the LotR movies…they royally messed up his portrayal too. He would have never tried to bring the Ring back to Gondor.

Regardless, until some legit dude from ANet, be it Jess Lebow or whoever, decides to comment somewhere, anywhere, on the legitimacy of GW2 lore in relation to how it was written and intended in GW1, I’ll continue to call out things that I find objectionable to that truth.

Tobias

Hmm, I guess I’m taking a broader view of “peers” here. If you limit it to only peeps who have ever been involved in creating a game, that’s a very small group. Besides, all works of art are judged by people in general, not just other artists. There are lousy critics out there to be sure, but that doesn’t mean any critic who’s never produced a particular form of art should not be heard.

And I’m not “applying my personal tastes” here. On the contrary, I’m just pointing out inconsistencies with thematic details of the narrative that go against a contextual understanding of the first game. It’s true I like certain things about the first game better, but my argument is simply based on observations made between both games. I would do the same with anything else if I had to, regardless of personal tastes.

You’re right art should be able to stand up on it’s own without outside influences. But GW1 isn’t an outside influence, it’s inherent to the very nature of GW2 itself. Now if we want to talk about this game’s lore without any notion of the first game, well…sure…it “holds up” its own. That’s not exactly what we’re discussing though. Anytime you reference something a previous source has already defined, it only makes sense to run a comparison.

You’re right that fans don’t have the right to tell an artist what to do, but they do have a right to have an opinion on it. Lucas was probably trying to show that it was emotional trauma and loss that drove Anakin over the brink, who really knows, but either the acting was lousy or the writing wasn’t convincing enough. Now George can simply ignore any criticisms, but if the opinion is shown to carry weight…it’s still a valid point.

Yeah, being the “hero” requires a little moral push I suppose, but it’s a relatively simple “good vs evil” scenario…it doesn’t require that much of a push unless you want to play evil toons—in which case you should probably be playing a different game.

There was one example I thought ANet did a great job with. Early on in one the Sylvari story branches there is reference to homosexuality. It doesn’t try to convince you of any moral path to take really, it just throws it out there and kind of says, “it’s out there…deal with it.” Well done.

Granted the main plotline should be more compelling, but after the tenth time of hearing the equivalent of “As long as we are unified we will prevail!” I eye-roll. It’s like they are trying too hard to get you to forget any problems between the races or Orders.

Lulz, is this true about shouts and traps?!?

There is a JP right next to Mallegan’s Grotto that is really nice. Quiet, beautiful, and the only creatures around are some baby Quaggs.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Coddler%27s_Cove.jpg

You can even “honeymoon” on the platform at the end top of the JP…it’s a moderately hard puzzle though. Good news is the baby Quaggs rez you if you die from the fall. XD

Interesting comments on SoR I have to say. The core W3’ers would most likely never transfer, even if that meant playing in T3. Or T4. Or 5… We just look at W3 a little different is all. I mean, sure there are some of us who reeeeally want to be relevant in T1, but I would say the vast majority just favor good, fun fights. Wherever they may be.

I could be wrong, but I doubt it. So snarkily bidding us adieu from T1 really doesn’t have an effect on us. If it giggles yer gander though, knock yerself out.

^

WiK was EotN(GW2prelude), and therefore anti-Adelbern. And he was right not to trust the Mantle. And you thinking dementia setting in is a personal opinion.

And you misread the middle part. You can get the jist of the lore just fine through the GW2 game. But if GW1 never existed, niether would GW2 in any recognizable fashion. The same is not true reversed.

And who cares if it’s “their right.” That doesn’t make “make it right.” Licensing rights and doing the right thing are two very different things. One is a legal principle, the other is a subjective ideal…usually judged by your peers. You seem to think they are equal somehow.

Lucas was wrong, very wrong, in his portrayal of young Vader for instance. We have the right to judge it because like any work of art it doesn’t exist in the dark in a vacuum. It’s authentic truth will always be compared to the original Vader. If Lucas didn’t want that to happen, then he shouldn’t have released episodes I-III, or perhaps just not released them to the public. Having the entirety of the nerds in this world bemoaning him for this does matter.

Hjorje

Well, you didn’t address my first question, but if you took Charr out of the equation what would your answer to my tech question be?

If NCSoft can get ANet to completely erase a section of DR right before release, how hard is it to believe they will pull the plug on Cantha? Elona might make the cut, we don’t know yet, but Cantha is still suspect in NCSoft’s eyes because of some style qualities(architectural?) that might be offensive to certain real-life cultures. Regardless of which entity did it, they’ve demonstrated they can and will do it if they want.

The gods weren’t on the way out after Nightfall, EotN is more GW2 than 1 as far as I’m concerned. But if anything they had demonstrated that they are still around and very much interested in Tyria. Also, wasn’t the point of that encounter to get humans to try and do it on their own without direct intervention by the gods? That’s the opposite of helping too much.

True about Kryta and Ascalon helpin each other out with the Charr back then. But while those inter-human rivalries definitely existed in Proph, they were hardly touched as a plot device after you leave Ascalon, why not expand on them? Nightfall did a decent job of it, but that conflict was more about Abaddon using humans as chess pieces than it was about actual rivalry. The only campaign that really dealt with this was Factions with the Kurzic and Luxons. From what I’ve heard over the years, this rivalry was a fan-favorite.

The darker elements? This one is obvious to me, but equally not obvious to a lot of others. Somehow half of the players think GW2 is just as serious and dark as 1, while half think it’s Disney World. How ANet achieved this balanced disparity is honestly amazing. But meh, if you don’t see it then you don’t see it.

I have to really disagree with you on this last one. I didn’t say giving me the choice of being good or bad, I meant trying to force me into a moral stance that I don’t agree with. It seems like almost every personal quest I hear this protracted diatribe on ANets version of doing the right thing, in dozens of different ways, over and over and over. It’s oppressing, not to mention arrogant.

GW1 was just the opposite: too simplistic overall, but you never felt like you’re being beaten over the head by a nun. You’re a game hero, not a student in an ethics class. There are already some posts on the differences between 1 & 2 on this subject actually.

Ryan.8367:

“@Everyonr else, well, you could always take a brown bear and get “Shake It Off!” Just saying….”

You might as well jus use the sigil that removes a condition on 60% critical to be honest and skip using that worthless pet.

Sigil of Purity:
60% chance to remove condition on critical, 10 second cooldown.
Sigil of Generosity:
60% chance to transfer condition to foe on critical, 10 second cooldown.

Bear pet is great in pve though.

^ Exactly. I use both of those Sigils on my ranger because I feel like I almost have to to keep conditions off me in W3. And I still use Renewal Sig, since HS is more or less a giant bullseye for invaders.

Really stinks I can’t use a sigil with a useful(and cool!) mechanic like most players can though.

Konig

Adelbern wasn’t portrayed as mad until that novel came out, you’re misrepresenting him based on a tendancy to take only the most recent writings as genuine. That’s bad research.

GW1 is its own complete story. And while GW2 uses that story as the backbone for its own lore, the GW1 story is still valid in its own right. If you think that’s nonsense consider this: GW1 can exist complete without GW2, the same cannot be said in reverse.

At any rate, if we do things your way and only take the most up-to-date lore as valid, then nothing is really out of the question. ANet could simply write whatever they want tomorrow, claim it as canon, and we’d have to accept it.

My bet is Adelbern’s heir is a Charr/human mix. Out of insane rage over his kingdom falling, he couldn’t help himself one night with a female Charr prisoner. He unleashed the Foefire so no one would ever know.

drax

Look, if you break it down into technicalities, there’s very little that I could rail against. A lot of what they did with GW2 has specific antecedents to details(or lack thereof) in GW1. I mean, they had to make it possible at the very least. Otherwise, a lot more people would be hollering a unified “wth!?”

Yeah, the Mantle start looking kind of shifty after the 1st or 2nd mission in Kryta, but when you first come into contact with them you don’t really suspect anything.

You’re right about magic being something that everyone has access to, regardless of background. I’d have to concede that point.

As for the Charr revolting against the shamans, that wasn’t really mentioned until EotN came about. Same with the known existence of the Norn and Asura. That expansion was a giant lore-patch that starts to take the game into a new direction.

Just about everything new in Tyria can be explained through either vague or absent GW1 lore, the progress of time, or clever writing that expands upon previously unexplored aspects of Tyria. However, that’s not really the core of my argument.

The question that I wish GW2 writers had asked themselves isn’t could we shape the world this way…meaning can we make it work and believable within the current framework of the story. But rather should we do this…meaning are we doing GW1 justice with this new direction. After all, they are borrowing heavily from a previously existing story. Wouldn’t you want to make sure it’s a good fit?

Here’s some questions that should have been asked:

Do we really need to bring in other playable races for this? They already had cultural diversity within the first game, why bring in cliche’d fantasy tropes at all?

..and the obvious follow-up question…

If we do, should we severely diminish the pre-existing human cultural distinctions in Tyria? Was it really the right thing to do to demolish the “Canthan” themed section of DR, or entertain the idea of not bringing back Cantha at all? Or Elona?

Do we really want to introduce more modern technology into the game? Magic already provided ample wonder and intrique, is gunpowder tech really something that we want to expand upon if it’s going to change the social landscape of Tyria?

Should we downplay the significance of the gods because the plot actually allows for it? Why mess with this basic story component at all? What’s the reason behind ANet’s decision to do this when it was working so well for them already?

Should we eliminate inherent conflict themes for the sake of a new one that has no historical context? Does the current “Us vs the Dragons” theme even make sense given Tyrian politics and history?

Should we downplay darker elements of the game to bring in a younger audience? Is it more important to try and bring in new fans, or cater to old fans? Or try to find some middle ground that satisfies both?

Should we subtly push the players into a specific over-arching moral code? Is it even our right to push certain moral stances on the player base? Or should we let them make those decisions on their own?

In my opinion, these are the kinds of questions that should have been investigated more adequately. It’s hard for me to look at this game now without thinking NCSoft, and ANet by default, gave mass appeal such huge import that most everything else had to conform to that decision. It seems obvious to me, however unpopular it seems to be here, that the lore decisions made for GW2 were done in such a way as to make sure they didn’t hinder that push for mass appeal in any way.

Architects have a saying: form follows function. It’s not supposed to be the other way around. :/

Now before I get infracted for being disrespectful to ANet staff, let me say I was merely being sarcastic for dramatic reasons.

Truthfully, each one of the races in GW2 today are very well-written and you can tell an immense amount of time and effort went into their creation and portrayal in the game. The home cities alone are wonders of human imagination. And I applaud ANet designers for that.

But honestly, how in the heck do they fit into the world of GW1 Tyria in any reasonable way? And it’s not just the races either, they are just a very good way to show my point. The sheer volume of changes, in Tyrian culture, politics, and character, that were implemented for GW2 vastly changed the identity of Tyria as it existed in the first 3 games. If you took away place-names and changed some geography, you would hardly know you were on the same planet.

And yet…you think using a plot device(or lore ommision, or whatever) in GW1 to tie all 3 campaigns together for the sake of continuity…is essentially the same thing as the changes they made with GW2.

I’m dumbfounded.

And what do we have in Tyria today…

Humans without gods because apparently they are scared of the dragons. Or are on vacation. Or something. We don’t know yet really. Oh and it wasn’t the gods who gave humans access to all of those skills/spells in GW1, it was the Bloodstones. All those alters strewn across Tyria that gave you magical boons when you prayed to them…you were really praying to 4 rocks. Who knew!

Charr who are not only not savage, but braniacs! Yeah, see, it was their silly belief in false-gods(Titans) keepin them stupid. Once they bailed on those losers, they woke up and started using Pythagorean theorem and calculus and now can build tanks and mobile artillery. Who knew!

Norn who look exactly like humans, just twice as tall, living right under the dwarves noses this whole time. They drink a lot and throw beer kegs at each other for fun. They are basically vikings but can change into animals when they get mad. Oh and they worship nature spirits. No, not Melandru, different ones that are like animals and have always been here…somewhere. Who knew!

Asura who know everything about everything…and make sure you know that they know everything. They’ve been living under the mountains this whole time. Dwarves didn’t know about them either lol, they were probably drunk. Asura are basically gnomes with big ears and sharp teeth. They worship the Eternal Alchemy…it’s some invisible magical matrix that is everywhere. It’s like the Force. It’s been here forever too, apparently part of the magic of the Bloodstones’ the Seers created way back before the human gods arrived. Who knew!

Aaand the Sylvari. Don’t let the name fool you, they aren’t elves. They look like elves, and act like elves, and talk like…well…they talk like British. But they came from a tree! Yup, born right out of it like apples and oranges. They worship dreams, err…The Dream I mean. It’s some nature spirit(again, not Melandru) that guides them subconsciously and sends them on Wyld Hunts just like the Native Americans do. They’ve been around only a little while, but one of them runs the whole multi-national anti-dragon campaign already.