Guild Wars 2

Ok, here goes my rant…

Do you honestly think that withholding certain details about Abaddon in the “trilogy” equates to the same writing device that is used in the monumental changes that take place in GW2? Do you? Because if you do we have a serious impasse to solve here.

You said each GW1 game can basically stand on it’s own laurels. Agree. You said they are all linked in the end by a common theme. Agree. What is that theme? Well, the writers chose Abaddon as the overriding force behind all of the calamity in those games. The Titans influence on the Charr caused the Searing, and then the Cataclysm(with the help of one of Aba’s agents in Khilbron’s ear). And apparently, Aba also influenced Shiro through the old woman fortune-teller…basically driving him to unleash Afflicted and Shiro’ken throughout Cantha and eventually regain his mortality by killing Togo. And in Nightfall, he’s pretty much center stage throughout the whole campaign.

Were Proph and Factions originally written with Nightfall’s conclusion in mind? Maybe, maybe not. Who knows! My guess is no, but that isn’t important here. What’s important is that the writer(s) found a way to link all three games without changing the essential character and context of each individual game. Oh they failed to mention Aba in Proph? Well let’s find a reason why the gods would do that that makes sense.

It’s called being responsible to the essence of the storyline. What little tweaks they made to the lore in GW1 during its life were done with the thought in mind that it should stay true to the conventions that were laid down with the original game. It’s a fairly simple, not to mention desirable, concept to have. You don’t just start throwing in things that wouldn’t make much sense to established lore conventions at will. You honor, if you will, the colossal amount of time, dedication, and creativity that went into those games by introducing new elements that fit within the framework of the game world…in this case Tyria.

That’s what they did with those first 3 games. Factions and Nightfall were both beautiful additions to Proph, most would say better even by content and visual standards, including me. But they overwhelmingly fit inside the spirit and essence that is(was?) Guild Wars Tyria.

So, let me get this straight…

Since the gods wanted to wipe Abaddon from the records, peeps just assumed magic came from them. But it actually came from Abaddon as we find out as the game progresses.

What in the world does that have to do with anything?? We’ve already been over how it was specifically Abaddon and not all 6 that did the “bestowing.” I think it was your 2nd response to me like 4 days ago. lol

So…all three games eventually work up to this showdown with Abaddon, which sheds light on some particulars about magic. And you think because of that light veil that was pulled over our eyes early on, that none of it can be really trusted now? Are you cereal??

It was a plot device dude…if they told you how everything ended right from the start there’d be no anticipation, and really bad storytelling I might add. We also thought the Mantle were good guys too…until we got to Maguuma. Does that make the Krytan parts of the lore suspect?

The failure to mention Abaddon by npc’s in the early game can’t be your best evidence here. At least I hope it isn’t because that is a really poor argument.

^ Ah true, transferring them would be the better option. It’s a lot higher recharge though, and each condition of Consume that you cleanse = more health gained.

For larger groups, Plague Signet would be better hands down though.

Nah, I was arguing GW1 lore being changed, and using examples from Proph to support that. It’s not the same thing.

What about Abaddon in NF refutes Proph? That he was behind the Titans, the Searing, the Cataclysm, and Shiro’s fall? None of that refutes Proph, or Factions for that matter. Or if it’s something else, please elaborate a tad more that just “Abaddon.”

Quarktastic.1027:

Obsidian.1328:

Bran.7425:

At one point or another we did have it and surprise it was taken away.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Antidote_Signet

LOL Did they really think that was overpowered? /facepalm

Removing all conditions on a 25 second (untraited) cooldown? I don’t know of any other class which has that much removal in a single skill.

Well, there’s these…

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Conditions
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phoenix
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purge_Conditions

Consume Conditions is probably the best self-heal/cleanse in the game. Having Signet of Renewal only cleanse conditions in the same 25 second tick hardly seems OP, since its passive is a standard “1 per 10sec”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Obsidian.1328:

I just don’t think that they produced GW1 with a mindset like “well I hope it sells, because this is just the intro patch for the real game.”

And here, you’d be wrong. Before Prophecies’ release (or was it Factions’? Drax would know more than me) they talked about how they intended to have the full story shown in steps of three – meaning that from the get go they were planning up to Nightfall, even if not in detail.

The first “full” story would have been Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall. But they in of themsleves were their own complete game.

Obsidian.1328:

My issue is simply that they chose to bend or change certain aspects of GW1 lore to better suit their current needs. I don’t buy the argument that GW1 lore was always supposed to be human “legend-speak” for lack of a better word.

No, not all of it. But from the very beginning, the History of Tyria – the sole source of the Six Gods having been the creators of the Bloodstone iirc – was by all indication not entirely truthful since Nightfall, not GW2. And other facts of the Prophecies manual was “wrong” since Prophecies as well.

Uhh…what? I said GW1 not Proph. You just argued against the same thing you are supporting. Regardless, they still have to make each game stand on its own two feet, if only for marketing purposes. You make one…hope it sells, then make another, etc. I put “sequel” in quotes up there because it was not an exact fit as a definition. Apparently that wasn’t enough of a disclaimer for you. :/

And then,

Lol, you did it again. I said they changed certain aspects and you reply with “no, not all of it”

dot dot Dot

And what is it about NF that is so convincing in your eyes to dismiss the gods as creators of the bloodstones? I don’t see any valid case for that.

~ Also, what does “iirc” mean?

Bran.7425:

At one point or another we did have it and surprise it was taken away.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Antidote_Signet

LOL Did they really think that was overpowered? /facepalm

@Resonance ~ Ah yeah, I meant I average 5 ores a day, not ingots, sorry.

@SuiRyuJin ~ As for the EB JP, I stay away from there out of principle alone, since it takes away manpower from the real fight going on up top.

@kurath ~ I like your idea, I might try that. I haven’t been to Southsun since its release event though so I’ll have to relearn the map lol.

I see what you did there Dust, clever analogy. XD

First, what kind of artist are you. I’m just curious really, I don’t run across many living in dullsville USA lol.

Second, I see your point on the “finished” aspect. Yeah, I would think every game designer/writer/etc would like to see his/her works “well-liked” and able to be expanded upon. It makes sense. I just don’t think that they produced GW1 with a mindset like “well I hope it sells, because this is just the intro patch for the real game.” …I’m over-exaggerating but you get my point.

I think they made a complete game. It was very well received so they made a “sequel.” Same results then another “sequel.” By the time a 4th installment was in the works they realized they had a really strong following and had to make a choice: use the same aging game-engine for another expansion, or create an entirely new game platform using the same world as before.

Obviously they chose the second, which was almost assuredly the right thing to do given the rate of technology improvements. My issue is simply that they chose to bend or change certain aspects of GW1 lore to better suit their current needs. I don’t buy the argument that GW1 lore was always supposed to be human “legend-speak” for lack of a better word. We never hear about that from ANet anywhere at all, and please inform me if I am wrong on this, until GW2 information starts being released.

They could have made GW2 without this selective lore reshaping, but they chose not to. Probably for the “multi-race” reasons I stated above, but that is just my theory, I can’t prove it. If GW1 lore was originally meant to exist in a “pseudo-mythical sense” I wish someone with some authority would comment on it. :P

So, I took a rather long time to get to 400 crafting in one discipline, I spend 98% of my time in W3 and just don’t find time for farming outside of that map. And I only recently found out the exotics use 5 Ori inscripts per item.

My question is, where does everyone who spends most of their time in W3 get all the Ori you need for this? I average about 5 ingots per day just off of salvages.

Erm…that part of my response was for Tuomir. I was answering both of you in one post, sorry.

It’s not so much an assumption really, you can find out who was on the staff back then. They’ve also grown as a company since then so there’s probably plenty of additions. Ree and Jeff in particular, two who have a lot to do with the lore, were not there in the beginning. I suppose I could find other names, those were just the two that caught my eye since they tend to be a public face for the company at times.

I would say a game world’s present and future are not static. It’s past is, just like any history. The only thing that would change it is how one interprets that past. And I wouldn’t say new information has to make some old info false, that’s a general assumption on your part.

The real question to ask might be simply whether or not the original authors meant the GW1 story to be something akin to an “origin story” as draxynic stated in another post, with myth and legend a large part of that story. If it was, then I’m wrong. But if it wasn’t, there is merit to what I say.

But asking that question to the modern staff is not the best way to go about it. Granted there are some still employed at ANet since 2005, but how many of those are writers or had a stake in the lore of the game back then? It’s bad research to get your information second-hand.

Hmm, I disagree. Role-playing is a state of mind, not something you assume when you turn on the game. I’m not saying anyone is wrong for RP’ing, it’s just that it isn’t something that is inherent in how anyone appreciates the game. Seeing as it’s a work of fiction, I look at it from the point of view of the authors and how the game plays out in terms of style and form.

For myself, I’m looking at this as an artform, and not a “real” world necessarily. Just like you would read a poem and try to discern the authors meaning and tone, I played the game immersing myself in the world and feel of Tyria. But I never made the jump to individual sympathy that you seem to make, but rather to general empathy for the whole player experience.

To me, to say GW1 was just a narrow-minded view of Tyria predicated on some mythological hogwash does a disservice to it. It exists on its own merits and is independent of being “edited” by another. You wouldn’t think it ok for someone to fill in the shapes in Picasso’s “Guernica” with bright colors and claim “NOW it’s complete” would you?

I would say that using our real-world legends and myths , and how we uncover those mysteries, is incompatible to a work of fiction. The things in Tyria don’t exist in and of themselves, just in the minds of the authors. There is nothing to say all of this existed at the beginning, highly improbable actually. There were most likely a few variations of the way the story might have unfolded in Prophesies, and there were a few inconsistencies, but on the whole it was pretty straight forward.

“They wouldn’t know the bloodstone was created before the gods used it and broke it. So their history reflects this, and their belief up until new information came out that this is how it was.”

^ This really interests me, I keep seeing this crop up in here. Where does it say or imply, without using GW2 sources, that the lore of GW1 was all intended to be mythical? Is there some dev post from back then that I haven’t seen? Is there some legitimate source that shows this to be true?

If there was all of this material available from the get-go, that is one massive pile of knowledge that they sat on for all of these years. It’s hard to believe none of it is ever heard of until EotN and the subsequent books.

It’s a no-brainer really, if you think about it. ANet had to downplay humans for the sake of the other four races. And they worked hard to try and get players to play them. There’s dev interviews stating they wish more players would try out the other 4 races. There’s stellar voice acting brought in for the DE storyline. There’s amazing detail and artwork done on each races home city. There’s books written to promote them and get players excited for them. There’s tons of new lore that places them at the forefront in the war on the dragons. There’s the Charr Plushie…ugh.

The reason I have a contention with the Charr isn’t because I’m “pro-human” or anything, it’s mainly because they are the only race, of the new playable races, that had a previous history in Tyria. I can’t really find much fault with how the other three are portrayed since they have no antecedent here. But I do take issue with immensely reforging a race by using clever writing techniques and holes in the storyline. It’s disingenuous, which I’ve stated in a previous post.

Look, you can go out of your way to support how things turned out with the lore of GW2, that’s your right. Just like I can go out of my way to support how the lore was back then is my right. And no one here really knows what the original intentions of the game were, all you can do is judge it on what it was and how it was written. You say it was all “legend-speak” that was never meant to be taken factually. I say you’re wrong. Quibbling over little plotline inaccuracies and making rather remarkable leaps of faith on ANets intentions doesn’t cut it for a persuasive argument.

So…in the case of this particular forum post, if you get to state the equivalent of “this is how it is” over things that are obviously not set in stone, then I get to do the same. And until there comes a time when a legitimate authority can definitively decide these issues, it will remain subjective.

Ofc there are peeps, like Gaile Gray for example, from the original still around, that wasn’t my contention ya know. It’s just not the same staff by a large margin. And “new truths revealed the old truth was subjective and wrong” is a retcon…it’s just their way of doing it without actually admitting to doing it.

And you’re using Prophesies inexact nature and story-telling method to justify your objective/subjective truth. Some humans were liars like anyone else would be, what difference does that make to the legitimacy of their representation? And a guy in Fort Ranik giving the Charr a compliment could just as easily be seen as foreshadowing of the Titan’s influence, and not of Charr intelligence. And how did Khilbron not survive the Cataclysm?? And a couple of years difference in the Searing date? Really?

I’m not sure where you get your information on GW specifically being a game that doesn’t do the “all legends are truth” thing. If you’re basing it purely off of GW2 lore then that’s misleading. Anyone can take an old story, write new material that contradicts certain details of that old story, then make claims on narrative truths because of holes in the previous plotline.

Two things really…

You mention picking and choosing between objective and subjective truths as if you aren’t doing the exact same thing. My contentions are based on a set of lore writings supported by in-game examples…your contentions are based on a set of lore writings supported by in-game examples. It’s sardonically convenient that yours happen to specifically downplay or discredit certain aspects of mine to further bolster its own legitimacy.

Secondly, you have to be pretty naive, or loyal I suppose, to not see how the current game isn’t a giant marketing grab for more players. GW1 sales were decent, and fairly consistent over the years, but they were never stellar. So how do you go about competing for market share with games like WoW? You find out what its strengths and weaknesses are and produce a game that is both original and relatable to a wide audience.

GW2 has a lot of features that are directly attributable to filling the market vacuum that WoW is slowly providing. They either eliminated or curtailed some of the nastier aspects of mmo’s that players have been complaining about for years: open world pvp griefing/ganking, the gear treadmill(this one they show some signs of rescinding on), leveling time, class discrimination(the old “lf healer” diatribe), etc. They also supported or improved upon some of the great things about mmo’s: ease of social interaction, faction choices to identify with, fair and balanced pvp(stealth complaints notwithstanding lol), group and solo content options, character customization, etc.

It’s that last one that should interest us here: character customization. Most other games have a wide variety of races to choose from. I don’t have figures on it, but it’s a pretty safe bet to say players like having that variety…a lot. And there’s only so many ways you can make humans look unique and special, right? GW2 having only humans would be a hindrance to future sales, and ANet knew it.

So…just add more into the mix. Boom, in EotN 4 more races introduced(Sylvari almost) complete with all the unique history and character you would expect from ANet. They are really just slightly different versions of tried and true fantasy archetypes(vikings, gnomes, elves), but they did a decent job of giving them their own place in the minds of players. There’s really only one problem. If players are going to play them, they need to feel like they are just as important to the world of Tyria as humans are. Unfortunately…humans absolutely dominate Tyrian history.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

No, Obsidian, you’re wrong. It’s called retcon. That’s doing exactly what you said: established lore (aka canon) being redacted sometime later (be it 5 years or 5 months or 5 decades) because the makers wanted to take the lore in a new direction. And they bypassed the “it’s a retcon” proclamation by not redacting it, but giving the coating of subjective truths – that people can be wrong in what they say. In this case, the History of Tyria is just a false document in the world.

In canon, it’s a fact that human legends proclaim that the Six Gods made the Bloodstone. It’s just that human legends are wrong, and the truth of the matter in the canon is that the seers made it. It isn’t “pick and choose what you like!” but “this is what we thought was the case, but this is how it really is.”

That’s a fact, if you don’t like it tough. Because despite your apparent beliefs, you cannot dictate what is canon or not – only the makers can. Trying to do so just results in making fanon.

^ You’re right, only the makers can dictate it. The writers we have now are not the makers. If the same authors had "retcon"ed the lore, my argument would be rather weak. That the original lore was vague and incomplete in certain areas was a huge bonus for the current writers, and allowed for a wide change in direction.

And since when is “retcon” a good thing? Every source I’ve come across has a negative connotation attached to it. A quote from the source you gave me:

“Comic book fans will be familiar with the term ‘retcon’, which in layman’s terms means that the writer waves his hand and tells you ‘Remember when we said this? We screwed up, forget about that.’”

And this stuff isn’t even from the same staff as back then lol. It’s hilarious that they can simply label the entire human lore of Tyria as just a “legend” with a wave of the hand and move on. And to say that it was always intended as a legend from the beginning takes a huge leap of faith from the audience. Do you really think they started GW1 lore with the intention of editing large swaths of it and having it end up the way it does now? /facepalm

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There’s only one canon – ever. In this case, human history is proven wrong – again. It’s called “retcon” by a writer’s view, but they coated over this by saying that what we were told in the History of Tyria was wrong because human history was altered (as first shown by Abaddon and how knowledge of him was removed – albeit poorly).

The “truth” (or “canon”) of the Bloodstone’s history is what we’re told in the Arah dungeon – the original was made by the Seers, and found, tampered with, and split by the Six Gods.

Also, the Seers are NOT credited with introducing magic. When they made the Bloodstone, they sealed magic in the Bloodstone. The Six Gods still bestowed magic upon the intelligent races of Tyria, specifically it was Abaddon, but they didn’t invent magic – they just took the container that’s the Bloodstone and let it release magic.

Not really, no. If they get to choose which things they want to change from the original, then I get to choose which things I want to accept. You can say it’s their right to cut & paste content all you want, but what they(and you apparently) don’t understand is that that original art is already an established truth in and of itself, not to mention in the minds of those early players. It’s truth was beyond the bounds of any future editing a long time ago.

Truth, or “canon” as us nerds like to call it, can’t be redacted 5 years later simply because a new staff wants to take the lore in a new direction. They should have been both more responsible with this, as well as done a better job in keeping pace with the established lore. As it stands now, we might as well be playing two entirely different games.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Not really – even the ritualists’ pre-Bloodstone division was magic. Magic doesn’t come from the Six Gods – it existed on Tyria long before they arrived, but was sealed in the Bloodstone by the seers (the actual makers of it). So if the Elder Dragons consumed all magic, that’d include Ritualists’ unique magic.

Actually, this particular part of the lore changes depending on who and what you wish to believe. In GW1, magic was bestowed upon the intelligent creatures of Tyria by the 6 gods. In GW2, the Seers are credited with introducing magic.

Blame the writers, and simply choose which one you want to believe. Or even better, make up something yourself.

I’m pretty nubby on the crafting thing, but I’ve never seen this combo around. :/

20 responses and not one disagreement? I have to do this out of principle…

The holiday JP’s are the only ones I didn’t do. Primarily because timed puzzled just destroy me. Trying them with 10fps is bad enough…add in groups of other players around you and I’m lucky to get a jump off .5 seconds after I hit the spacebar.

ANet should pony-up and buy me a new system if they want my participation.

…oh and….Hhuuuurrrrrrrrrr
/ragequit

ninja.4139:

What are you talking about? When did they add any new rewards? They’ve been the same since release as far as I know. And honestly, the Fiery Dragon Sword is the only good looking skin. The armor skins don’t work well with some of the races, the dwayna gloves dye too weird to be matched with armor, the flame gloves were a let down, and they totally RUINED the fell blade. Absolutely ruined it. I was really dissappointed with half the stuff.

Well shoot lol. Diff strokes I guess. I actually thought the dragon sword looked bad. The flames are all stiff and fluffy. I was expecting something with flames whispily licking off the twin blades, instead you can barely see the blades amidst the electric, poofy flames encapsulating it. The conjured ele flame blade looks way better imo.

And the Fell Blade is awesome! The subtle black smoke that oozes off it like dry ice. I like that the effect means you have to look for it, and not get blinded by its gaudiness.

Tachenon.5270:

Obsidian.1328:

b?) I don’t know what you mean by “One More Day”

It would not be entirely inaccurate to think of ‘One More Day’ as a System Restore… from hell. It was a controversial retcon, as it were, of the Amazing Spider-Man’s marital status.

Ah I see. Well if it’s any consolation, I certainly wouldn’t expect any System Restore on this game right now. That would be a disaster.

Tobias

Much shorter now:

b?) I don’t know what you mean by “One More Day”

d) You’re right, they were winning ground…because of the Titan’s influence and power. Before the north fell there were many long years of general inactivity from the Charr.

e) Lol, well if everyone was judged by one ill-tempered comment, we’d all be insane. For one thing, you don’t tell the king he’s wrong in a public setting, you do it privately…Rurik should have known better. For another, Adelbern knew seeking help in Kryta probably meant Ascalon becoming a subject of Kryta, as well as him losing his crown, but regardless it was right not to trust that Mantle rep outside Ascalon City…for obvious reasons. And finally, Adelbern’s decision to stay is vindicated in the defeat of the Charr Titan’s, Rurik’s decision to leave cost him his life and the refugee’s their home and dignity.

At any rate, Adelbern was genuinely regretful of his parting words to his son. You see that in his dialogue after the Titan’s defeat. The “vengeance-crazed proud ruler” is largely a construct of the books and modern lore. Try to see it without those blinders on.

f) …great-great-grandfather…WHAT?

g) Don’t bother, it’s not asked for nor needed. Also, I totally agree development of GW2 started with the development of EotN, I never contended that.

h) True, but you don’t need to feel compelled to explore. It’s a reward in and of itself.

i) Your “extra” stuff was predicated on the assumption that only Kryta proper would be a viable option for any explorable areas in the game…I’ve already covered why I don’t think that would be the case.

j) I’m the same way, but ANet lost that privilege a while ago in my eyes. :/

Tobias

I’ll try to be as brief as possible.

a) It is the new staffs’ call on game direction, but disregarding earlier content for bad reasons is still wrong. The over-the-top mass-market appeal of this game is a bad reason(that ridiculous “Our Time is Now” commercial alone is evidence enough). Profit motive should never trump artistic integrity.

b) Having the right to something and right vs wrong are two different things.

c) So…it’s more important to make sure your story is technically consistent rather than spiritually consistent. Got it.

d) You still didn’t need to bring up the Titan quests, but whatever. Also, you used that opening to insinuate the Charr are not really responsible for the Searing. I’ve seen this line before. They always wanted to eradicate humans, the Titans just gave them the means to do so. If anything, I’d say the Charr were using the Titans.

e) Saying Ascalon was irrevocably gone after the Titan quests sounds like wishful thinking on your part, there’s no hard evidence of that. So…they push out the Charr from south of the wall and destroy their gods before their very eyes. Looks like a victory to me. The land is in shambles? So what. That hardly warrants throwing in the towel. And the argument about there being more Charr warbands to the north can be used just the same to say there are more Ascalonian soldiers to the south. It wasn’t something the story expanded upon at the time. It’s probably easy to assume it dead and gone though because the later books and lore did so much to beat that into our brains…not to mention unfairly vilifying a king.

f) I never said Cantha and Elona had to be there on release. They weren’t for GW1 and it worked out fine. And Utopia content could be simply used as a possible future expansion like it originally was. Besides, GW2 still has more expansions to come, 4-5 if you count one per dragon.

g) I simply meant taking a different approach to the sequel altogether. You spent 2 paragraphs squabbling over time-frame issues. So lets just say the development of GW2 to start right after Nightfall, mkay?

h) “The Falls” was one of my favorite area’s too, and even more so because there was nothing making you go there. Do you know how many solo roamers there are out there? One of the best aspects of Tyria(in both games) is the beautiful world around you. I hear people all the time in my GW2 guild say they just like “roaming around” for no better reason than it’s fun and connecting. You don’t need quests/merchants/etc to entice you to go somewhere.

i) I don’t understand why, if things went the direction I’ve stated, you think there would be only one major town, or camps on the brink, or a giant wasteland, or whatever. GW2 had stuff happen in between the games, the exact same thing can apply with this version. It doesn’t have to start 1 day after Nightfall. And even if it did, there would be plenty of towns/cities to go to.

j) I didn’t mean to imply that you work for ANet, only that you tend to grant them the benefit of the doubt, and let their reasons intermingle with your reasons. Perhaps that is just coincidental.

k) I understand you are limited by time constraints, we all are. I was merely saying you could have said just as much with less.

Tobias

It did “muck up” what already existed. We’ve already been over not only the change in tone and atmosphere of GW, but also the change in divine import, races, and cultures. Not to mention game-play. Having an original be light on detail does not warrant an expected change in trajectory of the narrative on its own. Simply asking “should we do this” should have given the writers pause. Obviously it didn’t, as they have favored trope over tried-and-true.

You also just re-stated the same “it’s the current material that is valid” argument, but in a different way. Authors come and go all the time, and the content the new ones create will always be compared to the content that came before them. But to say its the right of whoever is here now to do what he wishes with said content is not just wrong, it’s irresponsible. Heck even the same author can mess things up, the trainwreck that is Star Wars episodes I-III can speak for that. Sure it’s Lucas’ right to do so, but how many people can you find on the planet who would say young Vader was legitimately portrayed in those? He sure did cry a lot.

You still didn’t need to bring up the Titan quests. The topic was how the Charr were portrayed, not when were the Titan’s referenced. All the Charr behaved the same up to the point you meet Garfaz, regardless of whether or not the Titans were the implied or factual force behind them.

Ascalon wasn’t dead after Nightfall. It was beaten and burned, but still very much alive. And Cantha and Elona(Joko was still a problem though) were still alive and kicking. That’s 4 out of the 5 original human areas still a viable option. And you never set foot in Orr anyway, so you’re not even missing that one. If all that’s a lost cause I wouldn’t get into sports if I were you. Additionally, Utopia would have been a 6th area to include had they used the ideas for that for humans in GW2, and not sold them wholesale to the Asura and Sylvari themes. And Orr would have made a lovely area to explore in the future…just like it is now.

Your next few paragraphs are way off topic. We were discussing the pros and cons of staying all-human vs multi-race, and you immediately state it was too late since GW2 development had begun. /facepalm. We’re talking pre-EotN, not post. Stay with me here. Also, I’ve never heard the Proph landscape described as “nothing of interest” before. Most peeps I know said they thought the land was stunning for its time. And where did you make the jump to all of your meanderings meaning it couldn’t be an mmo? Because there were fewer humans left around now? You need a much better argument than that to be convincing.

Your last post, 2 things:

1) If you don’t prefer “artistic diversity” qualities in your games, don’t use them in your argument. Or if your speaking on Anets behalf and not your own, say so. You switch in and out of 1st and 3rd-person too readily it veils your motives and lets you not be held accountable.

2) Mark Twain once wrote in a letter to a friend, “I’m sorry this letter is so long, if I had taken my time it would have been much shorter.” It’s nice you like to expound upon your game history and how it has shaped your experiences, but it’s unnecessary. Or at least keep it succinct lol. We may have strayed from the original post, but it does still relate directly to it.

Tobias

“Retroactive continuity” is what us historians call b___s___. So let me get this straight: things do or don’t exist…until something else comes along to counter that existence. So only the most current take on reality matters. Gotcha. I know a few campaign reps that could use your speechwriting talents.

The Titan quests don’t present the Charr in any different way than previous, you shouldn’t include them with the Nightfall reference.

Why you would by me a drink I have no idea. Seriously. But if you will then Jamison straight up please.

“Artistic Diversity.” Odd…that’s almost exactly what they had before, even more so. Ascalonian, Krytan, Orrian, Canthan, Luxon, Kurzick, Istani, Kournan, Vabbi. Not to mention the various subcultures like Charr, Tengu, Dwarves, etc. All more or less distinct in style and personality. And all believable as legitimate cultures. I find it deflating that you prefer the styles that cater to those “stereotypical tropes” over a much more unique take on a gaming fantasy genre.

But I suppose if you prefer superficial, visual qualities over original, intrinsic ones, then yeah…GW2 is your game. GW2 Tyria is probably the most beautiful and gorgeous game I’ve ever played, but after the 100th breathtaking vista I’d like some believable content for my hungry brain. This stuff is for kids.

There’s a reason people only go to Disneyland sparingly, the constant themepark glamfest will make you sick after a week.

Tobias

Personally, I don’t mind if arguments go off topic as long as they stay interesting.

The Asura and Norn didn’t exist until EotN came out. When it was released they were written as having been around for a long time. There’s a subtle difference there that is important. It’s a tad inauthentic to imply there were always part of the GW1 world.

I’m glad you brought up the Nightfall quest because I’ve commented on this very thing before. But I’ll try it out again I guess. J. Grubbs was brought onboard ANet for the first time to help write Nightfall. He’s also one of the main movers and shakers when it comes to lore for both EotN and GW2. In that light, it’s hardly surprising we find a sympathetic Charr in the Realm of Torment or wherever it was. He was fond of the Charr for whatever reason, and was already starting to bend them a certain direction. <— just my theory fyi

I disagree on your analysis of the comparative goofyness values of both games <lulz>, but I don’t think we will ever see eye to eye on that. Suffice to say GW1 connected with me in a simple but personal way. I identified with it for whatever reason. In GW2, I can’t wait to skip the cinematics.

I would also like to add I was ravenously optimistic for this game before it came out. Ranted a lot on various forums against people who thought it would fall flat on its face. I never thought I would grow to loathe the content like I do now. If it weren’t for WvW, and the exquisite landscape of Tyria with which I like to roam aimlessly about, I’m not sure I would still be playing it.

Finally, I hardly ever get anyone to comment on whether or not GW should have been kept a “human-only” game, including yourself. I don’t know why that is, perhaps it’s too far gone to realistically consider it. But it’s something to think about. Why do you think they brought in 4 more races to play, hmmm?

Tobius

That’s just it though, Tyria did have geographic and cultural differences in the first game. Besides adding a few more classes, that was the whole point of it. There wasn’t much religious difference though, maybe for gameplay purposes with skills. Who knows. The different cultures weren’t monolithic either, the writers took bits and pieces from around the world and basically created patchwork Frankenstein cultures that only partially mimicked any one real-world culture. And they actually pulled it off amazingly. It’s irrelevant to state we only know so much about real-life cultures they pulled from, they weren’t trying to be genuine to any of them in particular, only in general.

At any rate, my point was that stating that the existence of certain physical elements in Tyria should follow the same course as they do in real life is not very realistic. But even so, it’s perhaps more important to stay true to the essence and spirit of a story or artform, than it is to reconcile technical mechanics to make them less oxymoronic.

The current races do indeed have their own distinct personalities, you can tell the writer’s went to great lengths to that end. I just think its sad we have them in this game at all, when the first game proved the human-only cultures to be a popular success beyond a doubt. Like I’ve stated on other threads, the only reasons I can see for their introduction at all is marketing(i.e more monies!), artistic creativity, and the reason I stated earlier.

The Tengu thing; ok, the Tengu Wars and the pre-Searing conflict are not the same. I left off “by any means” because something tells me you might latch onto that. How were both sides wrong? Or when did both sides commit mass atrocities?

And you’re comparing the early Charr-Human conflict to the centaurs? You’re missing the point again. The centaurs haven’t demonstrated nearly the amount of mindless disregard for human dignity that the Charr have. The centaurs probably hate humans for sure, we’re encroaching on their lands. But I have yet to see any sign of them building human bonfires or constructing a weapon to decimate the face of Kryta.

And yes, you’re right about having all 5 races possibly fitting the descriptor for “civilization.” Of course they do…now. The Norn and Asura popped into existence in EotN, the Sylvari just recently. They didn’t exist back in the time we are talking about.

And the Charr…they’ve had more plot changes than a bad soap opera. The Charr of pre-EotN were savages. Why ANet chose to give up on the human cultures is sad to see. Why they chose the Charr as one of the replacements is beyond me.

Safer Saviour.9685:

Obsidian.1328:

They were both militaristic yes, but humans were never genocidal. Khlibron wasn’t necessarily trying to exterminate all the humans, he was just evil, and one man. And the Mantle were slavers, not mass murderers. “Harvesting” the handful of chosen for their souls does not a genocide make.

The Flame Legion/Shaman Caste overlord thing was an invention of EotN to allow for social disparity within the Charr themselves. Without that distinction, Pyre’s rebellion would not be believable. That distinction had no appreciable existence before EotN.

Humans sought to murder all the charr and seize the charr homelands (Ascalon) due to some misplaced belief in Manifest Destiny. That’s genocide. Also, let’s take a moment to wave to the Ministry of Purity over there.

As for the Flame Legion/Shaman Caste being an invention of EotN, that’s utterly not true. At the very least, the Shaman Caste was present in the early missions of Prophecies. The dominance of the Flame Legion was highlighted/emphasised much more in EotN, but it didn’t contradict any pre-existing lore, merely expanded upon it. It was believable, and no less ‘dark’ than anything else in GW1 due to the subjugation tactics employed.

Show me where it says the humans were trying to eradicate all the Charr and conquer the entirety of Ascalon for that purpose.

The early Proph missions don’t really mention the shamans as part of a caste system. All the Charr bosses you fought there, even during Glint’s Titan quests, were representative of the various classes(ele, mez, warrior, etc). The Flame Keepers were there during the Surmia mission, but their job was just to guard the fire at the Flame Alter. There isn’t any overt evidence to suggest they were guiding the whole Charr army. If anything, the generals, like Bonfaaz Burntfur, were doing all of the leading.

Tobius

Good, we agree making references to real-world physical limitations is disingenuous when discussing in-game technology and the ramifications thereof.

Uhh…if she gave it to Rytlock, why would he not try to see if the legend is true then. I highly doubt, given the opportunity, Rytlock and the Charr would pass on a chance, however scant it may be, to rid Ascalon of the ghosts. Their on-and-off friendship pales in comparison to that.

EotN isn’t a coherent expansion, and it doesn’t work quite well. The various cultures of the humans back then(Krytan, Canthan, Vabbi, etc) serve the exact same purpose the playable races do now. NCSoft, and maybe ANet but I doubt it at first, was just too scared over losing a bit of sales over people being slightly offended over some vague similarities to real-world cultures(see forum Canthan thread). So they come up with these stereotypical races to provide the “flavors” the original cultures had.

Asura = cute, snarky gnomes
Norn = vikings(nord, nordic…they didn’t even try to hide this one)
Sylvari = wood elves(sylvan…)
Charr = idk…badboy steampunk lions??

The Tengu wars and the Searing are not the same by any means. What the heck did the humans do to deserve all of this, push the Charr a little farther north? It wasn’t even their homeland to begin with, they were nomadic. You’re reaching here.

And civilization? Hmm, well I’ll just pull this definition off of the net to save time: An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in [human] society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.

^ But again, that has some real-world nuances to it that might not relate here. But you get the jist. No race really fits that definition to a tee in GW, but it should be easy enough to make certain distinctions in lieu of that.

Safer Saviour.9685:

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias

It’s purpose was ineffectual then. So a Sylvari no one has a connection to got experimented on by some evil Asura. And he’s sad about it. Is that it? If ANet wants us to feel empathy for Malomedes, they should probably think about endearing him to the audience first.

“Sure, we have a truce. But I can still take you out if you step out of line”. See, that’s the b.s. part. It’s like the Charr are being somehow magnanimous and condescending at the same time. It’s interesting how ANet tries so hard recast the Charr into the role the humans formerly had. And no, I don’t take them seriously…the tanks and mortars are so wrong and out of place in this game no one should even have to remark on it.

How can I pay attention to something that wasn’t in the game? lol And I didn’t mention anything about the legitimacy of the Foefire being dispelled, only that Magdaer might be a peace offering.

I don’t care for the DE aspect of the game because it doesn’t engage me in the least. I hardly think I’m alone in that.

And…are you really comparing the Tengu to the Charr? Really? The Tengu of GW1 at least displayed some aspects of civility and nobility. The GW1 Charr were just mongrels. Did the Tengu ever try to commit mass genocide on your species? Or burn your fellow countrymen/women alive? Or nuke your land into a poisonous wasteland? And not express an ounce of regret for it? No? Well then perhaps they are mature enough to warrant a peace deal.

Both the charr and humans of GW1 were warmongers. Both commited acts of genocide upon one another, and themselves. Where Khlibron sank Orr and the Mantle enslaved Kryta and sacrificed people atop Bloodstones, the Flame Legion and the Shaman caste did the same thing to anyone who stepped out of line.

By the time we got around to Eye of the North, and we saw the same Shining-Blade style rebellion take place with Pyre and his followers, the only cultural division that really remained (in continental Tyria at least) was that the player characters were human.

They were both militaristic yes, but humans were never genocidal. Khlibron wasn’t necessarily trying to exterminate all the humans, he was just evil, and one man. And the Mantle were slavers, not mass murderers. “Harvesting” the handful of chosen for their souls does not a genocide make.

The Flame Legion/Shaman Caste overlord thing was an invention of EotN to allow for social disparity within the Charr themselves. Without that distinction, Pyre’s rebellion would not be believable. That distinction had no appreciable existence before EotN.

Tobias

If we’re going to get all realistic here about tech, then there’s no reason the Charr would be the only only ones with war machines. The “no gods keeping them preoccupied” argument doesn’t cut it. If there were such a huge advantage out there in the world like tanks and helicopters, the humans and Asura would be just as interested in that as the Charr, despite having magic. The Norn and Sylvari, not caring for tech as you say, would eventually die off in a “real world” scenario. My point was contextual to the original game setting, not real life possibilities. If Tyria was held up to a reality check, the Charr would have overran everyone else ages ago. In GW2 they are bigger, stronger, feral, and hold all the “tech” cards, so to speak.

Both of the swords could potentially be made a peace offering, does the legend specify if that the sword can’t be broken? At any rate, why would Eir seek to reforge it at all then, personal use? -_-

Pyre is more GW2 than 1…it’s fairly obvious EotN is much more the prelude to this game, and not a coherent expansion to GW1.

I don’t see how the Tengu link you pasted makes them similar to Charr at all, find better evidence.

You’re right, you don’t need nobility to know peace, but it’s a heckuva lot easier to deal with one who has it isn’t it? And the GW1 Charr were not civilized in any demonstrable way at all. That’s just silly-talk.

Tobias

It’s purpose was ineffectual then. So a Sylvari no one has a connection to got experimented on by some evil Asura. And he’s sad about it. Is that it? If ANet wants us to feel empathy for Malomedes, they should probably think about endearing him to the audience first.

“Sure, we have a truce. But I can still take you out if you step out of line”. See, that’s the b.s. part. It’s like the Charr are being somehow magnanimous and condescending at the same time. It’s interesting how ANet tries so hard recast the Charr into the role the humans formerly had. And no, I don’t take them seriously…the tanks and mortars are so wrong and out of place in this game no one should even have to remark on it.

How can I pay attention to something that wasn’t in the game? lol And I didn’t mention anything about the legitimacy of the Foefire being dispelled, only that Magdaer might be a peace offering.

I don’t care for the DE aspect of the game because it doesn’t engage me in the least. I hardly think I’m alone in that.

And…are you really comparing the Tengu to the Charr? Really? The Tengu of GW1 at least displayed some aspects of civility and nobility. The GW1 Charr were just mongrels. Did the Tengu ever try to commit mass genocide on your species? Or burn your fellow countrymen/women alive? Or nuke your land into a poisonous wasteland? And not express an ounce of regret for it? No? Well then perhaps they are mature enough to warrant a peace deal.

Wayfinder.8452:

The story telling so far has been a joke and while the game could be called ‘goofy’ it has it has a good feeling to it. It is a very beautiful and relaxing game, but there are rarely any characters and memories that stick to you for very long. If the game provides more memorable personal experiences that foster an attachment to a specific character or place, Tyria will be a much better place. March I’m looking at you, you better not disappoint!

On a side note :

Destiny’s Edge in the game is very very different from the one in the book. Most characters in the game are very static and unlikable (furries excluded).

Ebonhawk ? Who said Ebonhawk? Best place to be in the game! This area has nostalgia for GW1. Good events, really heroic events. Saving NPCs that actually have attachments to other NPCs and events that make sense in the story of the area as a whole while not being fetch, press F to win and kill 10 rabbits. Even if static this area has character, character that killing boars in Queensdale, stomping trash and killing risen don’t provide.

Disagree…

I resent that ANet tries to force me into a moral corner I don’t agree with at all. Killing random locals because they don’t want to give up the fight against the Charr is unfathomable. Save your particular brand of righteousness for yourself, ANet, and don’t try to tell me what you think passes for moral integrity these days.

I thought I would love the area…but it’s not what I thought it would be like at all. I was expecting this last defiant bastion of Ascalonian descendants…what I got was a sad, grey, beaten town who can’t even remember what they were fighting for.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Captain Tervelan: Of course you’re still alive. Should’ve known a few centaurs couldn’t kill the “Hero of Shaemoor.” They’re your specialty, after all, right?

<Character>: I know what happened to Falcon Company, Tervelan. How could you give them up to the centaurs? How could you betray their trust like that?

Captain Tervelan: I didn’t want to do it. My soldiers were starving, our equipment was ruined…I had to do something or the centaurs would have killed us all.

Captain Tervelan: So, yeah, I sold out Falcon Company so that some politician could say the queen was a bad ruler. But the rest of my command lived.

Captain Tervelan: I got funds to reequip my soldiers, munitions, decent rations, and a promotion. My command’s killed more centaurs than the rest of the Seraph combined—thanks to Falcon Company’s sacrifice.

<Character>: And all it cost was one company of your fellow soldiers. You’re not an officer, you’re a greedy, lowlife thug. And you’ll pay for what you’ve done.

Captain Tervelan: You and Bigsby… If you hadn’t dug so deep, you both could’ve done a lot to help us. All of us. But now you’ll just be ettin food. Bigsby may be already.

Captain Tervelan: This gate should hold you all in. I’m sorry it came to this. Good-bye, “Hero.” When you meet her, tell your sister I said hello.

I’m sure this is very goofy and not at all serious

Lol, actually I did find it rather humorous. It had an odd Scooby Do-esqueness to it. “You meddling kids!! This Ettin will take care of you!” <walks off without checking to see if they actually get killed>

Tobias

Lol, so angry.

People thought Gwen to still be alive because a)there were no reports of her death, b)her broken flute is found in the wreckage…an obvious omen, and c)yeah…some did like her. That she lived on in EotN was hardly a surprise. Also, Proph was my first campaign, not sure what that has to do with anything though.

My point was, just say “agree” like normal people do when they…well…agree, instead of bringing up a tangent point. I couldn’t tell from your answer that you knew you agreed or not…strange.

So Malomedes was experimented on by Inquest. Ok. And? Does he talk about it? Do we know what happened? Is he psychologically messed up from it? Does he say something vague and dour in an English accent then walk away with his head down? I don’t know where you’re going with this part.

I’m sure the Charr story you linked is all rough&tough, just like how they treat everyone else on the planet. That’s their schtick. The Charr are ANet’s answer to those players looking for a “tough-guy” race to play. It’s hilarious that they call humans “meat” all the time, but it’s difficult to take any of their bravado seriously.

First of all, Logan is too much of a pansy to demand anything from Rytlock, honestly, the Charr would tear him to pieces. Secondly, as a supposed descendant of Gwen and Kieran, the right thing to do from his perspective is to return it to the Ascalonians in Nebo or Ebonhawke.
Eir: “Oh look Logan…it’s your people’s royal heirloom, a symbol of your kingdom’s former glory!”
Logan: “Nah, let Rytlock keep it…he impressed me. Oh we found Magdaer too? Meh, let’s just use it to buy peace…I mean, we should feel really bad anyway for the Foefire causing them so much trouble now, back when they nearly exterminated us with glee.” -_-

Oh so Snaff died because of a bad decision Eir made on the field of battle? You’re right…Zojja would have to be pretty young to hold that against her indefinitely. Then what did Logan’s departure cause anyway, Glint’s death? I really never cared enough for the details of DE I guess.

And finally, I’m well aware of the very long stalemate in Fields of Ruin. The peacetalks have to happen because ANet can’t have 2 playable races at war with each other, and it seemed like a good way for the writers to address that particular elephant in the room. It’s not something GW1 humans would ever do, despite any amount of time passing, but it’s done for the sake of the overarching us-vs-dragons storyline.

Like I said, we’re all holding hands now. Despite god(s) and all creation singing a different song.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obsidian.1328:

Gwen was too emo, everyone knows that. And you will always get peeps that wear pink on heavy armor. Same with the “scantily clad” element.

You’re thinking of the wrong Gwen. You really are. But that’s okay. I’m here to help.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Gwen_(Prophecies).jpg

This is Gwen. She was a little girl who waited outside the gates of the first city in Prophecies and if you talked to her she would tag along and chatter nonstop until you left the area. Part of the Searing cinematic was her looking up before “crap happened”, and the next you saw of her was a “tattered girl’s cape” washing up somewhere in Kryta. Or a “Broken flute” spawning in the ruins of Ascalon.

And people adored this little girl.

The game is too sci-fi only because it’s an oxymoron existence. Yaks still pulling wooden carts around yet there’s a giant laser attached to a floating metal zeppelin…makes no sense. Final Rest and Twilight are just cool to look at, they aren’t dark and gritty.

Nope, they’re cool to look at but then, I find Moonshine to also be cool to look at.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moonshine

I don’t know the “assembly line” thing you mentioned, I always did the snowball pvp during Wintersday.

Your ignorance of what went on doesn’t make a difference to how goofy it was. Look up the Wintersday Finale. Heck, look up ninety percent of holiday quests. “The Knights who Say Nian”. Please tell me there is one holiday’s worth of events which is entirely not goofy.

Read the short story here right at the beginning(Nolani Academy…) and tell me it’s not more serious and gritty:
ftp://ftp.guildwars.com/downloads/gwp-manual.pdf

Talk with some people about what happened to Malomedes. Look at the first thing that happens for a charr player character. Listen to what happened to Destiny’s Edge to make them break up. Read the backstory of Ebonhawke . . . heck, take Ebonhawke in and of itself.

On Gwen
Lulz, thanks for clarifying what you should have earlier. “Little” Gwen was charming at best, but there were lots who didn’t like her either. Besides, Pre-searing was a sort of tutorial to learn your class…it’s supposed to be light-hearted and easy.

On weapons
You just agreed with me on how they look cool, so…

On holiday events
I already specifically said that GW1 holiday events were goofy, did you skip that?

On your last paragraph
1) What, that the Asura experimented on him? Did they elaborate?
2) I don’t/won’t play Charr so I’ll have to research that.
3) Destiny’s Edge is the whiniest group of fighters I’ve met in a game. Almost every storymode dungeon they end up running off in a hissy-fit. If they were real warriors, Logan would never have left DE in the middle of a fight to save his sweetheart Jenna, Rytlock would not be so stubborn and give Sohothin back to humanity to preserve group morale, Zojja would be a grown-up and stop blaming Eir for Snaff’s death from the get-go. Caithe seems pretty level-headed though. /shrug
4) Ebonhawke’s backstory is indeed dark. It’s lovely that this “peace-talk” is a slap in the face of those who died founding/defending it, not to mention it goes against Ebonhawke’s very existence. We all need to hold hands now though, right?

draxynnic.3719:

That writer wrote it as something a guy in Tyria wrote as a brief primer on Tyria’s history from his perspective. We’ve been told multiple times that that’s how ArenaNet does things.

The seer path is stuff that we see happening with our own eyes.

Of course that’s what they say now. They have to downplay the legitimacy of certain GW1 lore aspects at least a little in order to have GW2 lore stand on it’s own two legs.

Regardless, you’re right it is a brief primer, but that doesn’t mean it’s unfounded. It’s just the truth of the game back then. This is supported by various in-game events/writings/places…just like your seer path. The historical monument of King’s Watch is one example. I can give you more if you’d like.

Kreslin.6832:

miriforst.1290:

No, we killed their gods.

Did we? On which mission? Cause I don’t remember. What I remember, it’s how we helped Pyro to make rebellion against shamans and their friends destroyers. If you are talking about this, then we didn’t do it on our own, we just helped charr.

I believe he’s talking about the Titans. After the Proph finale, there were some additional quests given by Glint in Droks to cleanse Tyria of the Titan’s that the Vizier sent. The Charr Titans were killed by the player and Ascalonians.

The Destroyers were the “fall back” gods the Charr turned to after the Titans went bye bye. The same ones Pyre’s rebels attacked in that EotN mission.

You’re both right.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obsidian.1328:

What I got was a cutesy, hand-holding, Disney world that is obviously catering to a new, younger audience. Stuffed-Quaggan backpacks, Princess doll mini’s, a Rainbow&Unicorn shooting bow…?

We’re not in Tyria anymore, Toto.

Had I known the game was going to be so teensy, I probably wouldn’t have bought it.

- People like quaagans. They joke about them. They’re an unofficial mascot of the game. That’s why you got the backpacks. Blame the players. In contrast, GW1 had “chibi Gwen”. It also had warriors in pink-dyed gladiator armor which resembled a leather bra and skirt. If they wore anything at all.

- One item shoots rainbow unicorns, and that breaks the game? In comparison, there are how many items with a grim appearance? Or a tech one? Does the existence of “Super Hyperbeam Alpha” mean I should be complaining the game is too sci-fi? How about Final Rest and Twilight meaning the game is too dark and gritty?

- The princess dolls were part of Wintersday along with toy soldiers, plush gryphons, miniature golems, and toy centaurs. In comparison, over in GW1 we had Kringle wanting you to rescue Rudolph from the Grintch, er Grentch. We had Dwayna and Grenth treating the population of two cities like little kids at an assembly “line up and let’s see who has the most votes!”.

Gwen was too emo, everyone knows that. And you will always get peeps that wear pink on heavy armor. Same with the “scantily clad” element.

The game is too sci-fi only because it’s an oxymoron existence. Yaks still pulling wooden carts around yet there’s a giant laser attached to a floating metal zeppelin…makes no sense. Final Rest and Twilight are just cool to look at, they aren’t dark and gritty.

I don’t know the “assembly line” thing you mentioned, I always did the snowball pvp during Wintersday.

Read the short story here right at the beginning(Nolani Academy…) and tell me it’s not more serious and gritty:
ftp://ftp.guildwars.com/downloads/gwp-manual.pdf

Fuzzion.2504:

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

These BG people got hard-ons for yaks.

They must be from New Zealand

Yeah, and I thought JQ was bad lol. Protecting supply lines is good strategy and all, but even I, a dedicated tower defender, grow weary of the constant yak-ganking on the map. Basically for me, the game has mostly devolved into a game of “Keep the yak alive on its painfully slow trek from Spirit to Dawns.”

It gets old fast.

I was expecting a more adult theme overall as well, or at least something as dark as GW1 felt at times. That game really only felt cheesy during the holidays…as it should be imo.

What I got was a cutesy, hand-holding, Disney world that is obviously catering to a new, younger audience. Stuffed-Quaggan backpacks, Princess doll mini’s, a Rainbow&Unicorn shooting bow…?

We’re not in Tyria anymore, Toto.

Had I known the game was going to be so teensy, I probably wouldn’t have bought it.

ThiBash.5634:

Obsidian.1328:

@ThiBash

Erm…the person telling the story is the writer, not fictional characters in that story. It’s the writer’s perspective that matters most, after all it’s his/her imagination and creativity that we are witnessing. How do you ask a fictional character his or her opinion??

And I meant more playable races, not just any race. There are dozens of semi-civilized races in GW1.

You’re erronously assuming that the writer wants the reader (or player in this case) to know everything. If that were the case, then we’d know what’s behind Fire & Frost too.

Flame and Frost is a content storyline that is expressed by what ANet calls living story. Basically it’s a concurrent story that is happening in-game in real-time. Whether or not it’s been wholly written or is open-ended is uncertain.

GW1, or even Prophesies for that matter, were complete games with complete storylines. Even Factions and Nightfall were complete games and not expansions, even though they drew largely from Prophesies lore. Granted they had tons of themes with which to possibly expand upon. But they certainly didn’t write those games with the express purpose of the story unfolding the way it is in GW2.

If what your saying is true, then Prophesies would have been released in stages. Ascalon the first month, then Kryta, then Maguuma, etc. No game company that I know of has the cajones to release a brand new game with only a fraction of it’s content available, confident that players will buy into it and patiently wait for the next month of content to emerge.

GW2 actually is a modified version of this, and I applaud them for that aspect of it. This game is easily a stand-alone game, but everyone knows that there will be expansions to come that deal with the other dragons. When speaking of content delivery though, it’s not the same thing as Flame and Frost.

Dungeon runs are about the least fun activity I can think of so I just don’t worry about the Monthly Achievement. I don’t even know what the reward is. If anything though, Fractals and dungeons should be included in the same category…they are both basically dungeons anyway.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Mance.5640:

SoPP.7034:

The real questions will arise at the end of next week.

What happens in JQ is 2nd?
What happens if BG is 2nd?

Make no mistake, next week will be interesting.

In a nutshell this is why both servers are now “stacked.” Both have very stable smash your face pvp cores, and have weathered the cycle of wins/losses since launch without becoming “furry little kittens.” This has made them both very attractive for wvw oriented guilds who just want to wvw and avoid the drama llamas.

I’m really glad BG allowed SoR to come up into T1, so JQ could have a chance to poke the llama farm and share in the delicious tears. I’m a little jealous of BG coming into T1 versus SoR because nobody (after weeks and weeks of practice) makes the llama’s cry like BG does.

To be fair, we’ve only had like 3 weeks of practice so far, so please don’t judge us BG!

Tysm coming over to JQ to shore up our NA versus AGG etc will be a nice addition this week though, should be fun.

I feel like there’s some missing context for the llama’s o.O

Lol, I have no idea what that means either. Llama tears??

- Fixed a bug where panning the camera with your right mouse button sometimes targeted random mobs/invaders. You now always target random mobs/invaders.

- Fixed a bug where stowing your pet allowed you to move through areas easier. You can now only stow your pet in towns.

- Fixed a bug where stealth was incorrectly labeled. It now reads “invisibility.”

- Fixed a bug where too many exotics and T6 mats were dropping in W3. Now greens and T4 mats are the best drops.

- Achievement points now have a use. 10,000 points can be turned in for the new “Achiever” achievement.

- New Achievement: “Infractor!” Gained by accumulating 100 infractions in the forums.

- New Fractal added: Rurik’s Revenge. Fractal includes mowing down random hordes of charr north of Ascalon City and killing the warband lords. New Drop: Charr Bag(20-slot bag).

Kasama

1) Perhaps, but that could be minutes or hours.
2) There are always players near siege?? Which game are you playing? Regular siege doesn’t time out like trebs and golems do, despite what the wiki says.
3) Well true, but good siege placement has little to do with proximity to guards.
4) True
5) Any risk has a drawback. But granting a free exploit to a “weaker” class to make up for that is just wrong. Two of those don’t make a right.
6) You don’t see it happen is the problem. Plenty of times I’ve come back to a tower to see a pet happily munching on the last piece of siege in a certain strategic spot. Guards not moving, no white swords. Enter 10-man team with sup rams…door gone in 1 minute because the only surviving ac was the one behind the door. Rangers know exactly which siege to take out to make a ninja attempt successful, I know this because I almost exclusively play ranger in W3. And you can only deter this so much with siege inside on the ground. If you do put all your siege on the tower grounds, they can simply catapult the walls with little resistance.

If they changed “Search and Rescue” then I will have to try that out tonight after work, because I used to rez dead players all the time with it. The tooltip was always wrong, I’ll get back to you on this one.

Kasama

I’ll address your points in order:

1) Irrelevant if there is no one around to stop it.
2) There aren’t always players running around a certain area, it’s very sporadic and depends on where the action is.
3) NPC’s on walls are few and far between, there are tons of places on towers/keeps that aren’t within aggro range of guards.
4) Irrelevant if there is no one around to stop it.
5) Irrelevant if there is no one around to stop it.
6) The range on this actually exceeds the AoE radius of Metor Shower(the largest AoE in the game) if you position yourself right. I know because I’ve placed siege specifically just out of Meteor Shower range and pets still get to it.

Additionally, siege isn’t an inherent part of a structure, nor is it related to guards. So if your pet is attacking siege, white swords will not be drawn.

zeus

Search and Rescue does revive dead players

Rancor Chiron.6178:

I have to say it was a big mistake to remove this. It was great going to a location before the zerg got there and removing a lot of defensive seige on the walls.

Really??

In what world does that make sense or is fair in any way? So basically you want the ability to remove siege from a tower/keep from outside without drawing white swords or putting yourself in any danger whatsoever?

This was one of the most obvious skill abuses in the game.