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I haven’t seen any recently but when I did, the LAST thing they were interested in doing was non-meta analysis. I predicted meta-death when HoT arrived and I think it’s the case. We are better off for it because people like the OP learn and discover builds based on what they like and test, not based on what some excel guy can do with formulas; real gameplay vs. made up fantasy.
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Considering that progression didn’t work off “rewards” at launch I do not think I am being selective. That is how at launch gw2 worked (no forced content for pve character progression, specific content for luxury items) Again, Obtena, I am saying that the at launch setup was better than what they have now. If anyone was selective, it was Anet who started gw2 at launch in this manner.
Keep trying to build your strawman.
progression indeed worked off rewards … you didn’t just get XP for standing around doing nothing. You did some kind of activity for it. I mean, at this point you don’t even make sense. You did something, you got a reward of XP for it. That’s just … true.
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I’ve not seen these comparisons and I don’t think you will; very few theorycrafters concern themselves with anything but what is meta.
Not sure where this is coming from. Don’t theory crafters by definition look for builds and strategies other than the meta?
Talked to someone about this yesterday too. If the theory-craft community is non existent that is because non meta builds no longer work as well as meta builds and any slight variations.
I would like to think so but when was the last time you saw a theorycrafter say “Oh I think this build is cool, but it’s not meta”? Personally, I haven’t.
I’ve not seen these comparisons and I don’t think you will; very few theorycrafters concern themselves with anything but what is meta.
Generally, In openworld, conditions are slow because few professions can stack them fast enough to make comparable damage to power builds in the short time mobs live during an encounter.
of the classes I’ve tried, only Berserker and Ranger can stack conditions large enough to compete with their power builds with the frequency and consistent necessary to make them effective in openworld.
I suspect the ground opens up a little bit in fractals where things take longer to die. You still need quite a high number of applicable conditions but if they stack and you can extend the durations, I believe they have been shown to overtake power builds on some classes, including necro
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I see lots of reasoning that differentiates MP from leveling and I can’t disagree with most of what you said, but leveling and Hp/MP are fundamentally still rewards given for doing certain activities. That’s important to note because the point being discussed was that MP’s are ‘bad’ because they don’t let you play how you want to earn them, but in a hypocritical manner, other rewards that don’t let you play how you want to earn them didn’t seem to pose a problem. That’s just not recognizing the limitations of developing activities resulting in rewards in the game.
That kind of ‘selective’ application of logic is largely nonsense because if someone argues playing how you want for one reward offends so badly that the game should be changed, then that argument is applicable to any rewards that don’t let you play how you want; the whole game becomes suspect but really, it’s just faulty interpretation. Basically, this is an exercise in demonstrating how poorly understood and badly applied the whole ‘play how you want’ ideology is, rendering it useless as a point to reference for game changes.
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The fact you haven’t seen some of the Ascended mats is demonstrative of the fact you don’t need it … and you complain about time gates.
And no, character progression is nowhere near the same thing as every other reward in the game. Examine the MMO genre, as well as how GW2 worked pre-HoT.
I’m open to this challenge … if you think it’s not, then go ahead and tell us why. I’ve already given several reasons why character progression is very similar to other rewards ingame. I mean, just saying it’s no where near other rewards doesn’t just magically make that true. So go ahead, we are listening.
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So, how do the 90% or so of players who don’t raid, get legendary armor?
Better question, why would the 100% of people who don’t raid want it?
Yes becouse it can totaly not be used anywere else then in said raid right? hear that anet lock the legendary stat swapping and skins inside raids it wont be able to be shown or used outside of it.
The question isn’t if it CAN be used outside raids. The question is why would anyone want to? The arguments here are exactly the same as legendary weapons. The ONLY reason to use a Legendary weapon vs. it’s Ascended cousin is the skin because stat swapping is of highly questionable value outside of raids for an extremely high increase in cost relative to Ascended.
So unless the skin absolutely blows you away with how amazing it is compared to the dozens of armor skin choices that already exist, my question stands …
So, how do the 90% or so of players who don’t raid, get legendary armor?
Better question, why would the 100% of people who don’t raid want it?
Yes, that’s a good question. Why do they want it, and why can’t they get it?
Um, they CAN absolutely get it, they just choose not to. Everyone has equal access to raids. We have already dismissed this absolutely ridiculous argument that people who want Legendary Armor should be able to get it outside of raiding because they aren’t willing to do the raid. That’s just … crap.
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Actually acquiring legendaries and special items are exactly the same thing as character progression in terms of game play satisfaction; both are rewards for doing a set of activities, both give a feeling of achievement, both are something you work towards. The only difference is that you are OK with being told what to do get certain kinds of rewards and with others, you aren’t. I guess that makes it convenient for your side of the discussion to paint them with a different brush though.
General Health has it exactly right; people are just not willing to do what is necessary to get certain rewards. It’s simple as that. We see it for legendaries, precursors, elite specs; name whatever reward you can think of, someone has complained about it; it’s a common theme and it’s called entitlement “I want this now and I want it my way because I’m me”. They invoke silly reasons like ‘play how you want clause’, make it sound like Anet has screwed the game over, insists it needs correction and hope correction has acceptable ways to get the rewards they don’t want to work for.
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No problem … many elements of PVE were not play how you want since day 1. How is this for critical thinking … just because you recognized that player progression was play as you want in Core doesn’t mean that Anet consciously intended or designed player progression around that ideology.
You’re ignoring obvious facts. Progression in core was leveling. The game, by design, threw XP at players for doing literally anything. ergo, players could play how they wanted and progress.
I’m saying play how you want is not applicable to earning HP/MP, so suggesting those rewards should be ‘more like’ playing how you want to earn them is utter nonsense.
While you are correct that MP/Hp are not “play how you want” (HC’s never were, just ask any WvW only player), you are incorrect in suggesting that a suggestion is nonsense because it ignores the way things are. Suggestions, by their very nature, are requests for change, are that player’s preference, and thus cannot be nonsense. That you disagree they should be accommodated means you disagree, not that you get to try to belittle the idea by appealing to the status quo.
All that said, the _facts- are that “Play how you want” has a specific meaning to Anet. From the FAQ on the Wiki:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frequently_Asked_Questions
“Technically, yes. During development, ArenaNet specifically stated that they were not trying to make another World of Warcraft clone. Their core ideals of accessibility, playing how you want to play, the ability to play with your friends, and not having to wait until maximum level to “begin playing the game” were prominently mentioned in the press for the game."
So, yes, it does seem as if ANet stepped away from that as it relates to progression when deciding to create an incentive for players to play “adventures” by using MP as a carrot. That, unfortunately, has little to do with this thread topic, which is Elite Specs via HC’s. As noted above, HC’s have never been part of the “play how you want” philosophy.
I missed nothing; I recognize all of what you said and I don’t see how it changes my position. These are not suggestions we are talking about; these are claims forming the basis of people’s arguments. Ergo, those arguments are faulty to begin with. If play how you want was an ideology that Anet did not intend for character progression, the idea that HoT MP/HP should return to play how you want ideals because they are character progression elements is nonsense.
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I am suggesting getting rid of hero points and mastery points. Why is filling up the mastery bar not enough to buy that particular mastery bar. Why does there have to be this idiotic mastery point to seal the deal… It was to force players into content. Experience should be the end all and be all.
That’s a completely different discussion and one I haven’t seen yet. Removal of hero points is a fantasy; it’s a fundamental approach to how characters progress, even in Core. It’s not even worth mentioning removing them at this point in the game.
Mastery points I could do away with, but I see what Anet is doing with them and I think for the most part, it works. It does seem to be an unnecessary layer to advancement.
I’m saying play how you want is not applicable to earning HP/MP, so suggesting those rewards should be ‘more like’ playing how you want to earn them is utter nonsense. I don’t think you could be more disingenuous here; I know you don’t believe players should dictate how they decide to obtain rewards they want, EVEN in Anet’s context of a ‘play how you want’ game environment, EVEN in Core before HoT existed.
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Now the main point of GW2 HoT is equipment and fashion! Where is the new story and content?
Now? It’s always been about fashion. That’s the whole point of horizontal progression.
So, how do the 90% or so of players who don’t raid, get legendary armor?
Better question, why would the 100% of people who don’t raid want it?
From my point of view the game is more populated now than back then.
If you think the game is more populated now than at launch, why does Anet not give us more concrete player population numbers like the peak concurrent user figures they included in their “the first year” blog post? It’s definitely not because there are more people playing the game.
Anet has never given those numbers, so concluding there is a correlation between them releasing those numbers and the health of the game is bad.
No problem … many elements of PVE were not play how you want since day 1. How is this for critical thinking … just because you recognized that player progression was play as you want in Core doesn’t mean that Anet consciously intended or designed player progression around that ideology.
There is no strawman here; you are making assumptions about Anet’s intent for what play how you want means based on your observation you played how you wanted as you progressed your character. That’s just a hypothesis, an unproven one, and your using it to suggest that the OP’s complaint that elite specs are too grindy has merit.
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The first year and a half of gw2 was truly “play as you want”. When I refer to “play as you want”, I am referring to how the game was the 1st year and a half not Anet’s manifesto.
It’s always been the case that some content was not play how you want from day one so it’s silly that people randomly apply that to whatever game element they are talking about. No, it wasn’t truly ‘play how you want’ for the first year and a half. The game was launched as a play how you want FOR SPECIFIC elements of the game, not any game element that random gamer decided it should be applicable to.
I could care less about the manifesto. Anyone invoking the play how you want card for an explanation of why they don’t like something in HoT better have a really good understanding of the context of that ideology in the first place.
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I am not saying that Anet violated anything. I am saying they had it right at launch. I have 18 characters and plan to make more. It really gets old going to designated points over and over. It really is silly too. I could be in the heart of Maguuma doing event chains day after day after day and never progress. In fact, my character could be in the jungle for years and never progress unless he did these specific tasks. Years in the jungle and learned nothing…… 3 seconds of communing and bam wow I know things now!!!
Well, I know I’m not crazy; you said “The whole mastery point/hero point system defeats the “play as you want” aspect of the game …” I’m not sure how to take that other than Anet has the play how you want ideology and they threw that out with the MP/HP system in HoT. My problem with that statement is that you don’t know if the play how you want was intended by Anet to be applicable to character progression; seems to me that the context of ‘play how you want’ has more to do with not be tied to a specific role in the game like tank or healer because every class has the same basic set of defensive and offensive capabilities.
Just as a fictitious example: I could say that I should be able to earn a reward simply by standing AFK in LA because that’s playing how I want. Obviously, that would be rather stupid for me to do such a thing because there is no logical connection between playing how I want and what rewards I’m after; the fact that you could progress your character in Core playing how you want is simply a coincidence.
Listen, if your complaint is that you don’t like having to do hero points to get elite specs on 18 characters … OK, but bringing play how you want ideology into this and saying you can’t do that to get those hero points makes no sense because you don’t know if that’s the context of that ideology in the first place.
Go ahead and complain, but use some critical thinking doing it.
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Here is the problem with that logic; Anet didn’t link character progression to play how you want ideology or any other accomplishment in the game; that’s a fabrication of your own making. I know it makes proving your points super easy when you invent these relationships, but we were never given any indication from Anet that was their intent. They never said “you can play how you want for all character progression things”. There was never anything that specific.
While it is true what you say, it still doesn’t mean that Anet did anything to violate what they determined to be the context for play how you want ideology. You’re simply painting too broadly with your belief to what that statement should be related to and it’s meaning.
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Let me be clear because there isn’t a stalemate; You are being disingenuous and assuming. I don’t just think that, I can tell it from the tone of your posts (almost all of them judging by your history and how you interact with Anet staffers) and what you believe to be true.
You’re right, i don’t corner that market, but I don’t make nonsense statements about Anet getting the ‘play how you want’ ideal wrong … because they define what it means. There is a theme in your posts. You seem to give too much credit to players dictating what ‘is’ with the game, when really, Anet can turn around and decide black is white and you got nothing to do about it except deal with it or walk. THAT bothers you, so the next best thing is acting out. This isn’t Burger King and you don’t get it your way. That’s not just a belief, that’s the way it is.
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Belief isn’t enough to make things true, including you believing your interpretation of play how you want is relevant.
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That’s pretty disingenuous comparing Anet to Blizzard.
Well, it sure is funny that for the first year and a half they had the game devised so that you really could play as you want……. I think they started listening to the wrong people…. That got us the NPE and HoT.
Your whole premise is based on ‘them’ listening to ‘people’. This is not the case; Anet decided what needs to happen in the game. No one asked for NPE and HoT is just a recognition that Core GW2 is pretty lame by normal MMO engagement standards.
The whole mastery point/hero point system defeats the “play as you want” aspect of the game that was so strong at launch. Experience and skill points were fine. You could choose to do the content you wanted to do. Nothing was handed to you in that system. It just didn’t force you to do the same content over and over with each character you make.
HoT just furthered the monstrosity that was the NPE.
That’s simply your misinterpreted version of what ‘play as you want’ actually means. You don’t define that, Anet does.
This is not the case. Read what I wrote in full…
The guild has been there a while, I was on a 6 month hiatus when they moved. I am given the option to play with them, however this option now forces me to pay every time they change the linked server.
If you don’t know what I’m talking about read their posts about wvw server linking.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/World-Linking-Beta/
The post is a bit out of date but still tells you what server linking is for wvw. The move is also moving out of beta and their latest implementation introduces rotating linked servers.
Your old guild moved while you were gone … and that’s Anet’s fault that you would have to pay to follow them. Interesting logic.
I don’t see how exaggerations or a complete misunderstanding of MMO expansions have anything to do with the cost of Elite specs, yet that’s the rational I’m reading in the OP. If I’m scratching my head, Anet’s beating theirs off the wall.
I don’t see a problem here … there is no expectations for balance of the different mats over the ascended crafting materials and … it’s the same price for everyone to participate. Anyone can take advantage of selling as well.
I think your ‘preferences’ say alot about the direction I hope this game never takes so you will excuse me if I’m challenging what your preferences are and the basis for them instead of just letting you seek validation of them. No one should have that warm fuzzy feeling that somehow, self-imposed limitations to playing any game and complaining about barriers for success is reasonable position to have.
Apparentlt Guards and Necros got the same thought-provoking threads in their forums by the same poster.
I’m counting on seeing a “Why is X so OP” thread being created in Ele and Mesmer forums in 3 … 2 …
It’s as OK as people making troll threads apparently
Guess that my personal experiences can just be pushed aside just because I don’t fit the two big groups of people. Whatever.
Actually, you aren’t far off the mark with this statement because AFAIK, no MMO was ever tailored to anyone’s personal preferences and experiences. That’s not to say you aren’t important as a player, but to think how the game affects you and interacts with you personally is a valid reason for the game adjusting to you is pretty much crazy. This is not a bespoke product; very little is, so I’m astounded at the expectations people have for the game to be adjusted to suit them. It’s unrealistic.
The thing I find very odd with these ‘HoT hard’ threads is that almost everyone had problems with HoT. The only thing that really separates the main core of players is that some adapted and succeeded and others, for whatever reason (some valid, some nonsensical) did not.
Not once did I claim the game had to change for me and only me. I am not THAT kitten ed selfish, nor am I one of the silly whiners who does not even TRY before getting frustrated. I am struggling with HoT. It’s as simple as that. Everyone is right in that the core game doesn’t train players to be prepared for HoT (especially those of us who really dislike PvP and WvW – honestly, I don’t even like or enjoy or am good at playing against people in Halo or other competitive modes).
I’m starting to get sick of people claiming I’m one of the “WHAA! Game is hard, so cater to my EVERY WHIM!” players. Also tired of seeing this “Well, I had no trouble, so you shouldn’t, either, so L2P” mindset that exists in MMO forums. Like every one else here, I want to discuss a game I enjoy, and also give my opinions and personal experiences when it’s relevant. Not to be looked down upon. Sheesh.
I don’t think it’s looking down upon moreso than what group of players an individual will be identified with and how they appear to the general population. Do you have problems in HoT? How did you go about solving them? IIRC, you mentioned you didn’t want to watch videos; I can’t see why that’s a valid roadblock to playing the game. It’s no less valid than “I didn’t want to read the manual” or “I ignored the minimum computer spec to run the game” (Sorry, those are old examples some people might not understand)
Those are not good examples. A manual comes with a game itself (either physically or as a digital download), and computer specs determine if you can even play the game at all. But a video created by a third party is an optional resource, not mandatory and did not actually come packaged with the game itself.
Those are great examples because they are information that’s available to everyone and it’s irrelevant what the source is or the nature of it; it’s about how you use the available information you have to make mature and reasonable decisions. If you decide not to, that’s not a failing of the game, it’s a self-imposed limitation. Labeling videos as ‘optional’ is a little disingenuous … is the problem you have that they solve ‘optional’ as well?
I mean … you won’t watch a video, but you have no problems being here, reading, typing and discussing your HoT issues to get some information to help you out when most of what you are asking or want to know has probably already been put in a more comprehensive and digestable video or website. I’m not sure how you don’t see the irony there but to me it’s obvious and it’s indicative to me of someone that really isn’t looking for help, but validation of their own position.
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Guess that my personal experiences can just be pushed aside just because I don’t fit the two big groups of people. Whatever.
Actually, you aren’t far off the mark with this statement because AFAIK, no MMO was ever tailored to anyone’s personal preferences and experiences. That’s not to say you aren’t important as a player, but to think how the game affects you and interacts with you personally is a valid reason for the game adjusting to you is pretty much crazy. This is not a bespoke product; very little is, so I’m astounded at the expectations people have for the game to be adjusted to suit them. It’s unrealistic.
The thing I find very odd with these ‘HoT hard’ threads is that almost everyone had problems with HoT. The only thing that really separates the main core of players is that some adapted and succeeded and others, for whatever reason (some valid, some nonsensical) did not.
Not once did I claim the game had to change for me and only me. I am not THAT kitten ed selfish, nor am I one of the silly whiners who does not even TRY before getting frustrated. I am struggling with HoT. It’s as simple as that. Everyone is right in that the core game doesn’t train players to be prepared for HoT (especially those of us who really dislike PvP and WvW – honestly, I don’t even like or enjoy or am good at playing against people in Halo or other competitive modes).
I’m starting to get sick of people claiming I’m one of the “WHAA! Game is hard, so cater to my EVERY WHIM!” players. Also tired of seeing this “Well, I had no trouble, so you shouldn’t, either, so L2P” mindset that exists in MMO forums. Like every one else here, I want to discuss a game I enjoy, and also give my opinions and personal experiences when it’s relevant. Not to be looked down upon. Sheesh.
I don’t think it’s looking down upon moreso than what group of players an individual will be identified with and how they appear to the general population. Do you have problems in HoT? How did you go about solving them? IIRC, you mentioned you didn’t want to watch videos; I can’t see why that’s a valid roadblock to playing the game. It’s no less valid than “I didn’t want to read the manual” or “I ignored the minimum computer spec to run the game” (Sorry, those are old examples some people might not understand)
Guess that my personal experiences can just be pushed aside just because I don’t fit the two big groups of people. Whatever.
Actually, you aren’t far off the mark with this statement because AFAIK, no MMO was ever tailored to anyone’s personal preferences and experiences. That’s not to say you aren’t important as a player, but to think how the game affects you and interacts with you personally is a valid reason for the game adjusting to you is pretty much crazy. This is not a bespoke product; very little is, so I’m astounded at the expectations people have for the game to be adjusted to suit them. It’s unrealistic.
The thing I find very odd with these ‘HoT hard’ threads is that almost everyone had problems with HoT. The only thing that really separates the main core of players is that some adapted and succeeded and others, for whatever reason (some valid, some nonsensical) did not. Things like not watching videos, not teaming, not changing gear, not pressing dodge, not reacting and dying while being attacked in order to finish a harvest … those are some of the nonsensical reasons and are self-imposed limitations that Anet can’t (and shouldn’t) take seriously as reasons to adjust the game.
We’ve read it all in the last 9 months and it’s disappointing to see that some of the gamer nation has reduces themselves to that level; they feel that they are entitled to all content their way. If people can’t do something in the game, there are multiple strategies available to figure it out; asking the devs to change it and make it trivial so everyone can get it done isn’t an answer.
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People need to realize that this game doesn’t ‘die’ like a traditionally sub-based game. Business model allows and anticipates the game to ‘die’ in between development cycles and Gemstore specials. Dying for GW2 isn’t as much about number of players as it is about sales in the Gemstore.
Oo would Reaper be great choice also ???
I Picked condi Necor over Reaper because I can hang back form fights, build up good, sustainable damage before my minions are wiped. Not sure how I would do the same with Reaper.
Put this way … I solo Champ HP’s with this build. Maybe a reaper with minions can too, I haven’t tried it.
Yeah .. so true. None of those things are “give us runspeed buff” though, so what happens when people bury those discussions in these runspeed QQ threads that Anet has already dismissed?
Fun is subjective but for ease of play in HoT, MM Condi Necro
Hey, you might not like it, but it’s true. If you want it to be better, you need to ask for tools that Anet will consider improving or enhancing, not ones they have already dismissed that we won’t get. People are asking for the wrong fixes.
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We aren’t going to get skill or tool that isn’t inline with the concept of the class.
Maybe they did. For all we know you could be Karl’s personal assistant.
Maybe that’s why the profession is in such good shape!
Keep up the good work and stay the course! Don’t let these people tell you things need to be changed.
Maybe you want Guardian to be THE class preferred by scrubs, but I don’t.
What makes you think they didn’t?
I got your back … You can thank me later for one less useless or dumb play concept Anet doesn’t put in the game that everyone will QQ about.
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How does someone get bored when things are added to a game? How does something added to a game, that you don’t have do, make you bored of it all the sudden? That’s nonsense .. .it’s the same as saying they added more dye colours … and it made me bored of the game!
I’m seeing lots of statements about grind and this and that which don’t even have logical connections, which is why it’s really easy to question how honest people are being when they say them. Adding something to a game that you don’t care to do, that you don’t have to do can’t make you bored of it. You can ignore it, do the things you did before that weren’t boring and not be bored.
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I can see why this thread went 7 days without a response.
I was referring to simultaneous symbol bombing. I won’t debate it’s an improvement or not … depends on how it’s implemented.
Admittedly, that’s ALWAYS been a good PVE approach with hammer, but it has nothing to do with access to more symbols via off hand weapons.
OK, but that’s not the same thing as having access to two weapons with symbols simultaneously. If off hands had a symbol, you do stack two simultaneously and get access to three or even 4 if more than 1 offhand had a symbol. You could symbol bomb everywhere with almost unlimited restrictions if that were the case. Not to mention how all the add on effects would stack.
Two stacked symbols aren’t impressive, and if you double “not impressive”, chances are it’s still not going to be particularly impressive.
The bottom line is that anyone that gives a rat’s behind about balance in this game knows why we don’t have offhand symbols.
Apparently that’s only you.
Based on this thread, you might be right. People think that implementing broken ideas is a substitute for a under performing class. It’s not, but I’m sure they believe it is. Frankly I don’t even think this would be an improvement in PVE or PVP … you already said yourself that spamming symbols wouldn’t be that good … so why even push for such a poor idea? Oh I know, just to be disagreeable … or maybe just to complain about having another ‘spirit weapons’ or ‘consecrations’ … Clever move.
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OK, but that’s not the same thing as having access to two weapons with symbols simultaneously. If off hands had a symbol, you do stack two simultaneously and get access to three or even 4 if more than 1 offhand had a symbol. You could symbol bomb everywhere with almost unlimited restrictions if that were the case. Not to mention how all the add on effects would stack.
The bottom line is that anyone that gives a rat’s behind about balance in this game knows why we don’t have offhand symbols.
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And why are you battling too?
You’re right, I didn’t come here to have my mind changed, I came here because I used to be an elitist like most of my opponents, maybe a bit worse, but I grew up and realized that games overall are better when they are built to be inclusive, where we can all play together and all of us progress. I found that seeking to make something that includes people, that makes all of us feel good, that deep down, we are all gamers, and we all should be treated legendary, is a more worthy cause then “Mah Speshul Lootz!”
The real question is, why is everyone else here?
This deserves a bravo because regardless of what side of the fence you’re on, being exclusive only limits YOU OWN gaming experience and options. I’m not really going to point out elitism or anything, but if you only run with the top 10 guys … then your game is only 10 guys big.