Guild Wars 2

ensoriki.5789:

Anet on some level seems to care about class identity and so not everyone does the same things. My thief does not pop out confusion or burning, nice as it would be to do so. They seemingly feel this new condition fits the class identities of thief and Mesmer (and historically they do) in addition to the Necro so they got it as well. While simultaneously aiding in their current build deficits.

I think you’ve touched up on something very important.

People often forget that Anet created all these professions, and with the rich Lore behind GW 2 consider this.

When a reader reads a book, they will support the characters they like the most, when an author creates a book, he will love all characters because they are all his creations, even the bad ones, a good author will try to give them a depth and motivation so their situation is understandable if not easy to relate to (sort of like a problem child a parent can’t hate).

I think you hit the nail on the head, why on earth would Anet, the creator of all these classes, who has ultimately tried their best to flesh them out and keep them even+equal while trying to make them unique (harder than you think), not feel 100% more passionate about each class than a player who decides to pick one or two favourites and only support their own.

It is fine to make suggestions, but in general I find players thinking they care more about their professions than Anet does, which has to be silly. (Ele forums all over again).

Anyway its not really on topic but I just thought you made a nice observation that must be considered in general in a lot of these threads.

Anet likes Mesmers and Thieves, but Anet also likes Ele’s, Anet ‘gave birth’ to both, and is trying their best to make all 3 the same, and yet unique, this is very difficult.

Its mostly an issue in PvP I find.

Another funny thing I’ve noticed is, if you shadow refuge (usually the case) or stealth in some other form at low health, if a player’s accidental AoE isn’t enough to kill you, in a situation where you’d normally escape you don’t…. Because a smoke animation plays telling them the area of your whereabouts, I always thought that was silly to play while already in stealth.

I’ve beaten a lot of thieves in duels thanks to using this as a place to swing my weapons for there general area and gotten more than my fair share of thieves because of the smoke cloud animation <.<

What I don’t get is, if you’re chilled, immobilized or crippled (which is one of the larger problems), and you want to remove these with your burst skill, wouldn’t you be too easily kited to land a burst skill and remove anything lol?

For once I wish they would just let warriors have something that might turn out to be OP, every class gets it and yet they are afraid to make warriors “Some beast in spvp who everybody will roll”, why Can’t we have our moment in the sun?

stof.9341:

sorrow.2364:

If they were true, they are going to make Necromancer the next FotM OP profession.

That’s no proof. ANet is perfectly capable of that.

+1, this man here is very wise.

Hey guys, I just wanted to ask…

Why are Ranger’s still bugged for downstate underwater? Lol, if you kill the pet the regen should stopped :X, they are a guaranteed revive if downed long enough to get skill 3 up.

How do you actually counter this bug? On a zerker thief running 62% crit dmg, I couldn’t out damage the revive… Trying to spam all my damage by the way, even blowing cool downs, and killing the pet does nothing, what do I do?!

Does this bother anyone else, and my apologies for being uninformed on the subject but was anything stated by Anet on the matter?

Ethics.4519:

Darek.1836:

I know exactly what mesmers are doing, when theyre doing it, how to counter it, when to dodge and when to attack. That said, mesmers are by far the hardest class to beat if they’re on an equal skill level.

Right, we excel 1v1, but so what? every class has a role. Doesn’t make it OP.

Warriors are OP because they kill slave driver in less than 10 seconds.

Eles are OP because they have lots of boons and regen

Guardians are OP because they hav ea lot of reflect and protection skills.

Thieves are OP at skipping content because of stealth.

Rangers are OP (Lol!) because they destroy underwater

Get the point? Sure, mesmers can take you 1v1. But what do I do when I get to a tower? I sit there trying to pull off an unsuspecting enemy, that’s it. PvE, usually more than 1 mesmer is a waste, all you really need is the utility.

Mesmer’s aren’t “OP” because more often than not you lose to one 1v1.

And mesmer is one of the few classes welcome into the ‘PvE- Meta’.

Being great at 1v1 is not a role, as much as you think a warrior’s role could be to kill a person in CoF. I’m guessing your post was mostly lighthearted but I shall reply anyway.

You do realize it is very likely and plausible a class can be OP in a 1v1 setting right?
Especially bearing in mind Anet has specifically stated they balance around team fights, and team fights only. It is why warriors can be powerful in team fights, yet without someone to hold their hand they can fall pretty hard when solo.

Whether Mesmer is balanced or not, there is a very large and general consensus that it is OP and viewed as such in all game modes. I remember recently I entered a duel server for kicks and not one person there would even bother dueling a mesmer, because there was no point for them, these servers are often ruled by mesmers anyway.

Now I don’t care much either way, seeing as I main a warrior and I know that I’m in too bad of a spot and anything would seem OP to me, so I don’t pass judgement on mesmers but, think about this…

One of the classes consistently called OP by a lot of the community is mesmers nowadays. There is a bunch of players out there saying this, some who play mesmer and some who don’t.

If there is a very large proportion of players who are saying 1 class is too hard to beat, more so griped than any other class there is two conclusions to draw.

Either Mesmer really is OP in certain settings and needs a tone down, or the mesmer community is more skilled than the other players and it is a L2P issue.

The latter sounds unlikely, so the former could be drawn to be the case, either way I don’t care much, its just a game anyway lol, Anet will nerf what they deem OP and they get final say not us.

(Human mind is also to factor here. Consider this, the two most hated professions in this game are Mesmer and Thief, this is undeniable, there stigma is very apparent all over the forums. I would think this is due to being very ‘cheese’ in their victories. Now I’ve played both so I don’t mean it in a demeaning way I more so mean, they have styles which are literally built to rob the other player of a victory, hence their unique lore-wise concepts too.

How does this play into all of this? The most popular 1v1 matchup I’ve seen (In terms of likeability) is Warrior vs Warrior, and I believe this is mostly due to the warrior having very direct mechanics and abilities which are easy to see and keep track of, thus every warrior victory is earning in the eyes of people, being able to distinguish each move made as a skillful play to the point they can support each play skill for skill.
If you think of it in these terms, it makes sense that those classes built for direct combat are more popular on a spectrum of popularity (I mean this not as played, but liked among other classes, we know mesmers are very popular as a class to pick) and reputation heading downward in these two factors to culminate at the least liked 2 to be the most ‘cheese’ classes, the thief and mesmer.)

These are just theories, happy posting

Vashti.8179:

PistolWhip.2697:

Vashti.8179:

PistolWhip.2697:

@Kraven
While your posts wreak of assumptive judgemental behaviour and rude claims. Please do not reply to my posts, I do not wish to converse with someone who is too arrogant to see that other CD members have made those claims and that I merely highlighted them.

Why is everyone assuming that I made these claims? I pointed out in my post it was gathered from the Posts of CDer’s on this thread. I decided to give a few posters benefit of the doubt when it came to their claims that CD doesn’t care as much as TC and that’s why they are losing. If I’am oh so wrong for taking these posts seriously, then I will disregard these posters as trolls, but I must ask, clarify for me now, does CD as a general server attitude want to strive for a win or not?

I would wager that what CD looks for more than anything is a competitive match, win, lose or draw. Speaking from experience, our previous match ups with Kain and YB literally came down to the wire. I wouldn’t have cared who won these matches – it’s because of how close they were that made them so much fun.

People aren’t trying to claim we don’t care about the score and that’s why we’re getting roflstomped (although to be fair I personally don’t give a kitten about the score). Instead we’re claiming to be losing because we can’t match TC’s numbers. As a result, a lot of our server mates are probably taking the week off and doing other things. You can’t blame people for staying away this mess. I rarely see CD field a zerg of more than 30 or so people, but I’m consistently seeing TC with zergs of 50 or more. And before you ask, I’ve been in wvw every night this week collecting my loot bags (although tonight I really should do laundry so it may be later before I sign on). :P

Oh and I don’t see anything wrong with Kraven’s posts. Telling someone not to respond to you? Please. Grow some thicker skin if you insist on playing Forum Wars 2.

Thank you for clarification, see was that so hard?

Thicker skin? Making a sound observation isn’t playing ‘Forum Wars 2’. I often don’t have time to post on these forums so I don’t.

I merely don’t wish to converse with kraven because he bores me and I can’t stand QQ. Its none of your business who I choose to talk to anyway lol, but once again Thank you for clarification, TC is also looking for this I’d say.

Nothing would make us both happier it seems than returning to the old system Anet had. Now those, they were fun and competitive.

You’re right, it’s none of my business who you choose to talk to and I never said otherwise. What I was referencing was this:

PistolWhip.2697:

While your posts wreak of assumptive judgemental behaviour and rude claims. Please do not reply to my posts

Just like you can choose to talk to whomever you want, Kraven can choose to respond to your posts! (See what I did thar?)

And yes, clarification was hard. Hopefully some TC folks will come in soon so I can learn from them.

Would be a pleasure to teach.

Some of you CDers really aren’t so bad.

Vashti.8179:

PistolWhip.2697:

@Kraven
While your posts wreak of assumptive judgemental behaviour and rude claims. Please do not reply to my posts, I do not wish to converse with someone who is too arrogant to see that other CD members have made those claims and that I merely highlighted them.

Why is everyone assuming that I made these claims? I pointed out in my post it was gathered from the Posts of CDer’s on this thread. I decided to give a few posters benefit of the doubt when it came to their claims that CD doesn’t care as much as TC and that’s why they are losing. If I’am oh so wrong for taking these posts seriously, then I will disregard these posters as trolls, but I must ask, clarify for me now, does CD as a general server attitude want to strive for a win or not?

I would wager that what CD looks for more than anything is a competitive match, win, lose or draw. Speaking from experience, our previous match ups with Kain and YB literally came down to the wire. I wouldn’t have cared who won these matches – it’s because of how close they were that made them so much fun.

People aren’t trying to claim we don’t care about the score and that’s why we’re getting roflstomped (although to be fair I personally don’t give a kitten about the score). Instead we’re claiming to be losing because we can’t match TC’s numbers. As a result, a lot of our server mates are probably taking the week off and doing other things. You can’t blame people for staying away this mess. I rarely see CD field a zerg of more than 30 or so people, but I’m consistently seeing TC with zergs of 50 or more. And before you ask, I’ve been in wvw every night this week collecting my loot bags (although tonight I really should do laundry so it may be later before I sign on). :P

Oh and I don’t see anything wrong with Kraven’s posts. Telling someone not to respond to you? Please. Grow some thicker skin if you insist on playing Forum Wars 2.

Thank you for clarification, see was that so hard?

Thicker skin? Making a sound observation isn’t playing ‘Forum Wars 2’. I often don’t have time to post on these forums so I don’t.

I merely don’t wish to converse with kraven because he bores me and I can’t stand QQ. Its none of your business who I choose to talk to anyway lol, but once again Thank you for clarification, TC is also looking for this I’d say.

Nothing would make us both happier it seems than returning to the old system Anet had. Now those, they were fun and competitive.

Hickeroar.9734:

kRAVen.4195:

PistolWhip.2697:

@Kraven
While your posts wreak of assumptive judgemental behaviour and rude claims. Please do not reply to my posts, I do not wish to converse with someone who is too arrogant to see that other CD members have made those claims and that I merely highlighted them.

Why is everyone assuming that I made these claims? I pointed out in my post it was gathered from the Posts of CDer’s on this thread. I decided to give a few posters benefit of the doubt when it came to their claims that CD doesn’t care as much as TC and that’s why they are losing. If I’am oh so wrong for taking these posts seriously, then I will disregard these posters as trolls, but I must ask, clarify for me now, does CD as a general server attitude want to strive for a win or not?

Lol. Every post a classic. Shovel please. Any other rules of yours i can follow?

Kreaven, from TC, is going to feel very abused by the end of this thread.

I don’t know why I bother to be honest, you treat someone as an intelligent individual and they do all they can to disprove your generous assumption.

Anyway, I won’t bother with Kraven anymore, he obviously has nothing worthwhile to contribute to this thread but “Its numbers! All the numbers! So many numbers it all numbers!” Lol.

@Kraven
While your posts wreak of assumptive judgemental behaviour and rude claims. Please do not reply to my posts, I do not wish to converse with someone who is too arrogant to see that other CD members have made those claims and that I merely highlighted them.

Why is everyone assuming that I made these claims? I pointed out in my post it was gathered from the Posts of CDer’s on this thread. I decided to give a few posters benefit of the doubt when it came to their claims that CD doesn’t care as much as TC and that’s why they are losing. If I’am oh so wrong for taking these posts seriously, then I will disregard these posters as trolls, but I must ask, clarify for me now, does CD as a general server attitude want to strive for a win or not?

@Toxic and Kraven

Its not my call, if you do care, then why are there so many people on this thread from CD saying “We don’t care.” ? I did say as can be gathered from their posts, if you have a gripe talk to them not me.

So which is it? Are you guys striving for the win or not? I can’t tell from all the different responses what your general server attitude is.

@Toxic

You have some cheek to call us spawncampers as a whole when one party or faction decides to do so. Stop being so rude and pointing the finger at others, your arrogance knows no bounds.

I don’t get why this thread is such a mess.

There’s a lot of hubbub for no reason and incorrect statements (JakobGW’s assumptions about a whole server based on one or two events, I could say the same about CD’s small man groups, I joined 2 Pugs 2 days back and the 3 of us camped your citadel waypoint with 8-9 CDers too afraid to come out and face us. That should of been a wipe for us lol. These events happen and you shouldnt make assumptions on every small man group, our guild roaming group is yet to be wiped by anything other than a CD zerg of 40 once, and we were laughing during all of it due to us not taking it seriously, having not run into your havoc group its very likely your boys could live up to their name, the problem is, this doesn’t mean all of CD can, and vice versa for TC)

@everyone else
You guys are comparing two different servers. As can be gathered even from just the posts of a lot of CD in this thread, they do not care about WvW, or winning it, they only care for the experience.

This is different to TC. TC is a very driven server, this doesn’t mean we are all super disciplined on military like over a game, it means a lot of us want to win and excel in WvW. This is why you have volunteers (never forced) sentrying, volunteers learning on training days, volunteers helping in any way possible in WvW, because TC has a very strong community backbone. A lot of people will do what they can to advance the server in the upward direction in any setting. A lot of our guilds intermingle, and are very close.

CD doesn’t want that, they dont have the drive, which is why they are in this spot in WvW rankings. I don’t see why this is so hard to gather? A server wanting to win, will beat a server who doesn’t care.

That being said, a lot of TC isn’t enjoying this matchup either. Regular goers of WvW I have seen firsthand are taking a lot of breaks or have just all but stopped going to WvW due to it not being fun, TCers often revel in the challenge, which is why they are so resilient even in loss against servers like SoR. The old tier 2 was an amazing place for us with even match-ups in where every victory was a fight to the teeth, this just isn’t fun for anyone. There’s nothing I hate more than going into a map with my small man guild groups or myself roaming and finding no enemies, just none. It took me 50 mins to run across one last time, and that was near their spawn, I’m sick of this new system >:(

That’s a zerging idea, which works very well I must add, but CERN is a zerging guild, they have their own focus they cater to.

Our guild dont do it, neither do a lot of small roam groups.

@Waffler

Every server has bad players, whats your point? I could say the same for many of the players who basically backpedaled and stood in spot for my backstabs and did nothing to stop me from killing them 3v1 with ease. This doesn’t represent CD as a whole, it just means every server has bad players, or players who aren’t suited for that situation.

You shouldn’t assign a whole label on a server on their pvp competence based on 1 event, nor should you suggest WvW can ever be PvP meta, its Spvp that holds that crown, and it’s community.

@jschultz

Its more than just numbers though. Tonight during our roaming WvW small guild group of about 7-8 people, the number of times CD fell for baits that would never work on a tier 2 server, repeatedly was shocking. It was insane how basic the tactics we could use were that worked on CD players. It isn’t just numbers, its more than that, its experience, its dedication (which doesn’t mean the military style you seem to indicate, our mumble channel is actually very relaxed and has a lot of stupid silly stuff as a guild). Ultimately, a server having spent enough time in tier 2 has had to accommodate to its difficulty and thus come out stronger than it ever was back in tier 3. CD has the potential to do the same.

TC also has a very welcoming and inclusive community, so a lot of guilds transfer in, and not a lot transfer out, it is just fun to be on a server where almost all maps are lively and people are genuinely friendly to strangers.

To cut it short, its numbers, but its also experience, its also tactics and it is also wisdom. Like I said, baits that worked tonight on CD groups, and I counted about 4 different groups it worked on the same tactic 3 times on 1 of them, would not work on our love hate friends FA.

Actually, Thieves have only been nerfed since release. You probably don’t realise but Thieves have had more nerfs to them then any other classes combined.

There’s only one class I’d deem OP, and that’s Mesmers, but thats a complex argument, its not as silly as “Herpadurr too much dmg durr”

Take this from someone who mains a warrior, L2P.

This is the dumbest crap I have ever read, how can you run a warrior and lose to a thief?

The air is thick with your shame.

Archaon.6245:

PistolWhip.2697:

Plus, in today’s Spvp community most of the Custom Arenas are duelling servers, and a lot the community actively 1v1 and base their skill+mastery of their profession on those, so if a large enough amount of the community finds it relevant, Anet should at least consider it.

Just because wow tryhard rambo wannabe kids sadly rushed into gw2…still miss the old good gw1 community..

My account on GW1 is hitting the 81 month mark I think, and being an old GW1 player I share the nostalgia.

But there was also a vibrant 1v1 community in that game due to scrimmages being held in Guild Halls. People would even actively bet on winning or losing (some of course didn’t hold up to their end of the agreement), and many guilds had regular 1v1 Events. I don’t know the situation of WoW because I’ve never played it but, I’m sure GW 1 had just as relevant of a 1v1 community as GW 2 does now, even more so possibly? since it was supported.

Hmmm, I feel like a reasonable solution could be to scale up AI pets in this game.

1v1’s are often disregarded due to Anet balancing around team fights, but the relevance of a 1v1 in a Tpvp Match is undeniably there, even having to afford an extra teammate just to take out the phantasm mesmer is hindering your team.

Plus, in today’s Spvp community most of the Custom Arenas are duelling servers, and a lot the community actively 1v1 and base their skill+mastery of their profession on those, so if a large enough amount of the community finds it relevant, Anet should at least consider it.

But think about this, BM Rangers are also criticized for their now obscenely powerful pet in Spvp yet in large AoE fights in PvE or WvW, the pets die in less than seconds, or so the complaint is always that. The same thing is resembled in the Phantasm Mesmer debate topic… How would one make these AI pets less powerful in 1v1, but more powerful in a team fight?

What if, Phantasms and Pets scaled according to how many enemy players there were around them?

A 1v1 with a phant Mesmer would have them be far less potent then now, meaning their Phantasms would scale down in Health and Damage and become far more manageable, but the second a Phantasm Mesmer found themselves in a large AoE littered Group fight, they could still use Phantasms as they could scale up in Damage and health, and the same sort of idea with Ranger Pets.

This is just a rough thought I’ve had for a bit, so its not the final perfect solution or anything I just think it might help?

#RookstarWasRobbed

Guess what, all 3 winners of the Fashion Contest were Human Females lol, and the 1st place winner was someone with Light Armor Tier 3 top to bottom with no changes or creativity.

Rookstar deserved that win. As did Radagast, the only guy I’ve met with balls big enough to make a balding character!

@Caffynated the exact opposite happened here, and we’re not happy. Buying Tier 3 shouldn’t win you a contest, it lacks any creativity.

If you were in Lions Arch on that fateful day, then you know what has transpired.

Rookstar was robbed!

Some of these ideas are fairly good and creative and I like how you’ve taken the time to give an in-depth suggestion. But in my honest opinion I don’t believe devs will add Greatsword to Ele. There are just far too many conceptual drives not to.

LOL, one of the best posts I’ve read.

XD thankfully AI in PvE isn’t smart enough to kite in this game.

Both are very fun professions to play and can be great help in PvE. Though you may not get a full overview of both professions by just playing to level 10 as they have very drastic changes and hit a peak of full potential at level 80. To put it, both professions are very ‘Meh’ in effectiveness in PvE until later levels where they bloom into very diverse and powerful professions.

I’d honestly suggest Ele though. Mesmers have better burst indeed, but many mesmer players will tell you how annoying PvE mesmer solo content is. They are good at what they do but mesmers have a very indirect approach to damage in most cases, and require tons of kiting to stay alive against some hard hitting mobs.

Ele’s running the D/D cookie cutter standard build can tank many mobs at once while dealing consistent and aoe damage. Its actually very effective and easy to learn, (one of the easiest professions I had leveling up). Once you get the rotation down, its pretty much habit for using your skill set. They are also great at getting tags on mobs and this could help you in spots where you are looking to farm or tag things for whatever reason.

Bear in mind, though I suggest Ele for souly PvE as they are a great asset on any team and very powerful in solo content, Mesmer is a far more powerful profession in many areas, often being accused of borderline OP a lot in pvp. Though I know you said you’d only stick to PvE, you never know when you might wanna try other game modes, and Mesmer is very powerful in all game modes, where as Ele only really stands out as very powerful in Spvp.

Also to add, both these professions use some form of kiting to achieve survival, so if you are looking for a profession to literally stand toe to toe with enemies without budging and still doing respectable damage, in my opinion unfortunately, Guardian or Warrior might be a better choice for you.

Kaleban.9834:

PistolWhip.2697:

If this is the case, then wouldn’t the best form of balance be making sure that every class has the same level of skill capping? Just a thought, I find this notion interesting.

Impossible.

Case in point, I was watching the SOAC tournaments on YouTube, specifically the Guardians Vs. Mesmers.

Everyone agrees more or less that Mesmers are exceptionally strong bordering on OP. The Guardians roflstomped the Mesmers repeatedly, with an entire match seeing only one Guardian get downed, but not stomped, even when three Mesmers were working together.

Commentators agreed on a few points, that the Guardian team was experienced, and had a great plan, whereas the Mesmers had not really worked together before and their “coach” gave quite poor build advice prior to the match.

But watching that video, if you ignore the comments and were just looking at it as a spectator and possibly being a dev with an eye to balance, would probably conclude that Mesmers are extremely underpowered and need a significant buff to bring them in line with even just Rangers.

And that’s the problem with the game, the balance devs, the players (especially the ones on these forums) and the class design. A class that is technically OP can still be crushed by skilled players, whereas underpowered classes can still be used to dominate if played by skilled players, and the problem is that the aforementioned groups can’t tell the difference. To people who’ve been schooled by an Ele, ALL Ele players are daphoenix. To people that have been roflstomped by Mesmers, ALL Mesmer players are osianic. They take one experience due in large part to their own inadequacy, proceed to rationalize it to protect their fragile ego, illogically conclude that the class that beat them couldn’t have done so because the player was better, it HAD to be an OP class, then come to the forums to complain about it until something is done.

The best form of balance is to get a 20 or so group of devs or interns, make their job nothing but playing all professions equally, then report back. Playtesting and balance should have been hashed out prior to release, not still being ham-fisted whack a mole patch releases coming up on a year later. That the playerbase hasn’t abandoned the game entirely due to such a debacle is a testament to the loyalty of the players, not ANet’s game design.

You make a good point but then, wouldn’t the subjectivity of every experience make it biased and unfair?

I mean, to people who have been decimated by a warrior (and there are some), ALL warriors are Avlis or Sanny.

Same applies to thieves and Yishis.

How would one sufficiently even take any point of personal views due to their personal biases. Wouldn’t this all mean that each and every post is too swayed in own perceptions to even be taken into account? This whole thing can become even more complicated by the fact that not everyone has the same perception of what a good Ele or Mesmer is. To keep it relative, some Ele’s I’ve talked to have watched Daphoenix and often said “He’s just kiting around for ages, hes not that amazing of an Ele.”, “He’s alright I guess.”. Though I don’t share those opinions, my point is that, bearing in mind not everyone finds 1 style or form of play to be good on a profession, how can we accurately even take an account of what is OP and just lackluster player performance. This is where this stuff gets fairly mind-numbingly tedious though, so to spare you and I headaches I’ll just end here. xD

Also, I don’t see why that wouldn’t work. For the example you applied, to bring a Warrior to the level of say an Ele or a Mesmer in Spvp, couldn’t devs aim to make it so that a player on a Warrior had potential to bring their profession of to the other two’s level in terms of mastery? I know this might be confusing, but this sort of topic is somewhat hard to describe :X

I’m not disagreeing with you, I merely think if we bring it all down to subjectivity being the issue, nothing is going to be valid and fair, because everyone could be accused of having a bias, or a distorted view of something, no matter how valid a point might be.

Still, regardless of whats been said, I personally think aside from minor tweaks, I’am personally happy with balance thus far, not thakittens great, but I’ve never personally wanted to stop playing because of a change, though it can be annoying at times.

LordByron.8369:

pistolwhip could you please stop your l2p and QQmore posts?

people gave reasons, analyzed skills, and stuff

You just reply discussing people instead.
Thank you……

You never see 250% nerfs in games….what would happen if they did it to stealth?

They have nerfed stealth before.

Then I kindly request you stop accusing anyone with a different opinion to yours of being a secret spy for another profession.

Thank you

oZii.2864:

PinCushion.7390:

What you’re talking about is unusual behavior. Most people do not study combat logs, optimize and tweak builds to death, or analyze combat encounters in minute detail until they know both what they did wrong and what their opponent did right. Most people do not level up an alt for the sole purpose of learning how the class ticks so they can know how to beat them in PvP. What you’re talking about requires time and mental energy that most people have dedicated elsewhere.

Also, I think the classes are generally balanced. However, and this has been a topic of conversation since release, some of the classes are remarkably easier to play at a mediocre level. I think all classes have a relatively high skill-ceiling, but I think a chosen few classes have a low skill floor that makes them seem a bit OP when two players of average skill confront each other and one wipes the floor with the other. I bring this up because it’s far more interesting than whining about which class is OP and needs adjusting. Elementalist was considered an incredibly complex class until daphoenix (and others) started churning out D/D guides and videos. It turns out almost anyone can be taught, and the complex part was fitting it all together in the first place.

I never look at combat logs really unless I get killshot or I want to see what damage I did. I feel like there is a skill cap difference between classes but I also think there is a component of conventional vs unconventional for some classes that give the appearance that one class is easier than another.

Conventional would be Warrior as an example on the surface its pretty straight forward.

Unconventional would be thief, elementalist, mesmer (usually the most complained about classes)

The other classes I havent played to see how "straight forward’ they are in terms of conventional MMO style play for their profession archetype. My experience in game is I will study another class when trial and error doesn’t seem to work or I can’t get by on that alone. Mesmer and thief are the 2 classes I would say where most people may have to seek outside sources on help defeating because on the surface they can seem unbeatable because they capitalize heavily on the enemy being confused.

I remember when d/d bunker eles first popped up in WvW against my server and I was in Team Speak. People from my guild where talking about 2 elementalist hacking because they had every boon in the game etc. I had never seen one so I went to take a look and their I saw elementalist fighting about 8-9 people. I didnt think hax my GL linked daphoenix’s Excala episode 3 I believe and I did some reading on them. Eventually more people learned how to fight d/d elementalist those that still complained are the ones that will chase a elementalist half way across the map.
I don’t know my point here just adding to the thread

Very detailed post. Lol as someone put it, “it takes more skill to beat a mesmer than play one”.

But I actually was curious about what everyone’s perception of skill cap was?

To me, skill cap on a profession is potential. As in, each class has a certain skill cap of which a player can keep getting better at the profession, becoming more skillful in their use to the point it caps, or has a boundary that due to class mechanics they cannot surpass. So, in words a barrier of potential.

If this is the case, then wouldn’t the best form of balance be making sure that every class has the same level of skill capping? Just a thought, I find this notion interesting.

Kaleban.9834:

Ralathar.7236:

Pure speed over a long distance is not the same as constant in fight mobility. Ele’s are certainly not out in the cold for long distance mobility being middle of the pack in your statement. Meaning you can go alot further before being caught if you do it right.

False. Wasn’t true before the recent nerf, especially not true afterwards. The Ele’s movement skills are on some of, if not the, highest skill cooldowns.

They also have really good in fight mobility, beaten out by thief but warrior mobility outside of combat and warrior mobility IN COMBAT are two different things. Warriors and rangers are far more susceptible to CC effects for example and combat also means weapon swap timers apply. You also won’t see Rangers and Warriors applying chill, cripple, and stun to their chasers without so much as missing a step.

Ele’s can be CC’d as normal in all but RtL (and yes some CC works even then), which is now on a crazy CD, and still buggy as hell (RtL a vet karka and 7 out of 10 times I should have hit but do not). Out of 20 skills on Staff there is one movement skill, and backwards at that. None on Scepter or Focus. Only one on Dagger that doesn’t require a target (Burning Speed). Shortest CD is Magnetic Leap on a 12s CD, but 9 times out of 10 misses the target.

Chill and Cripple don’t last long enough to make up for the deficit in movement skills. And saying the Ele has really good mobility in either in or out of combat when compared to professions like Thief and Warrior is both patently false first of all, and second you’re comparing mobility on a profession (Ele) with the lowest health, armor and no inherent profession defense (i.e. Stealth, Death Shroud, Aegis, etc.) to other professions that do have MUCH better defense which alleviates the need for mobility both in and out of combat. The other reason Rangers and Warriors don’t need Chill and Cripple is because their movement skills work much better, tend to not bug out on terrain or obstacles nearly as much, have significantly shorter CDs in many cases, and have much higher innate defense (armor, health) along with profession mechanics or design that helps them survive.

Have you ever tried using Rush on a warrior Greatsword? I’d dare you to go ask any warrior in their forums, its one of the worst and buggiest skills in-game.

But of course, our population of Ele’s seem to think they are the only one with issues. Still one of the best classes in game in my opinion, and others, making this too subjective to even matter I feel, but the amount of QQ on these forums compared to others is somewhat disheartening.

1. The active and fun play-style of fast paced attunement swapping.

2. The great and effective utilities you can bring to any party in any game mode.

3. Having skills for every situation, I like the jack of all trades aspect.

4. Being in high demand for WvW for fire fields+ Static fields and such.

5. Being amazingly formidable for a cloth armor profession, which is such a cool concept, and seems unique to me!

Arheundel, I’m not saying I don’t care about 1v1, I’m saying Anet doesn’t balance around it. I fully agree with you that both aspects are fun and should be considered.

Back on Topic please :P

Lol yeah this happens a lot to people I hear, hasn’t happened to me too often though then again I don’t run banners too often.

makku.2508:

PistolWhip.2697:

makku.2508:

PistolWhip.2697:

I find it sad all you do is complain about Ele’s being bad, when you’re plain bad. Honestly, I’m sorry for you that you can’t play ele, but me and others are having a blast and still doing great. We would love a few buffs where we need it, I suggest you stop playing GW2, it obviously isn’t your cup of tea.

Wait, weren’t you one of those whiners who threatened to leave the game if they went through with the update? Well they did, so good bye.

Solid way to discuss with people that share different opinions. Call them bad and tell them to gtfo. You just disqualified yourself, bro. Get back to the thief forums.

Amount of hypocritical words here is disgusting. Its not like the person in question just accuses others of stupid things ( as if a person playing on a thief is bound to come on a forum and complain about another class for some odd reason), but also here you are doing the same. I don’t play thief, and I haven’t in months, because I found them to be a bad profession. I didn’t like that I had to rely on stealth in most cases just to survive.

Who are you to say I’ve disqualified myself from anything?

You just disqualified yourself, ‘bro’. Get off the forums.

See, I just did to you what you do to others. Look at that rage in your reply, and how it immediately destroys any attempt at having a proper discussion. Hope you learned your lesson.

Well, after putting you in your place I’ve learned the lesson that using someone’s own medicine against them seems to work well. Now that you’ve hushed down, those with a real point to make can post

I also agree with Raven. I enjoy the changing of attunements to chain skills as it provides a nice enjoyable and active play style. I love how fast paced my ele feels.

So you refuse to address any of my points? Why should I address yours? Give me one good reason. Just one?

Answer my points, then I guarantee I will answer your silly question.

Thief players in ele sections? See this is your issue. You seem to think the whole thief populace has this weird agenda. Thieves never had an issue with D/D Bunker Cantrip wtf spam skill ele’s to begin with. Their burst was most of the time enough to out do the Bunker.

What I’m trying to say is, you keep on lumping us all together in this one ele playerbase that is apparently terrible. I don’t appreciate it.

Its not that Thieves come here to post stuff (Wtf?) It is that many Ele’s have different view points because we’re all players with different experiences.

I’m saying you’re lose minded because you wont conceded on anything. Do you honestly believe Ele’s needed no nerfs? That our broken state was fine in various game modes?

Not once have I seen you concede on Ele’s needing any adjustment apart from buff buff buff. That is why I call you close minded. I have accepted their are parts of the profession which need tweaking and reduction, but I also strongly feel the profession needs adjustment and buffing in other areas.

You could plausibly say Ele’s post in other professions forums, which they do, because forums often intermingle anyway. I’am just as informed as you on the subject, I check just as many balance notes and I have just as valid of an opinion as you, so why do you keep ignoring us Ele’s who have and are able to cope with the changes and still come out on top?

Also, the 1550 was a bug fix, a bug FIX. When something is working as not intended and it is changed to work as intended like that, it is a fix. Would you call a 1550-1200 reduction on the Warrior GS 5 Rush a nerf? or a Bug fix?. Its a fix for an oversight.

Also, I hope you know other classes have Ninja nerfs too, it happens, and it sucks but it happens to everyone. Instead of hating on every other profession but Ele, how about you join hands with other professions and agree with their players on fair and objective fixes rather than post everywhere how bad every Ele is? (which we aren’t.)

Lol, you mean a banner….

Identity crisis?

LordByron.8369:

PistolWhip.2697:

Ele

Great in PvP
Good in WvW
Viable in PvE. What are you talking about? Have you never seen a high level fractal group?

Pre-Patch (Big QQ one)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33Oi1ycdp4U

Post-Patch (Big QQ one)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNIkL_NGwfw

This is by far the hardest PvE content in game, and look at the level. More Ele’s than any other class in both, so what the hell are you still on about? I see you post over and over how bad Ele is in pvE, when its evident you just can’t play.

Stop heaping us all together with your terrible gameplay. Ele is still viable and greatly used in a lot of groups, stop QQing about how bad it is just because you can’t play it.

Also, I’ll repeat, warrior isn’t the king of pve, it pales in comparison to Guardian. Guardians are the only profession you need for certain content, they are also the only profession where you can have a party of 5 of them and face tank every boss apart from maybe lupicus and fractals in the game.

Just one question why EVERY post you make do you have to attack ele profession and complain for poor thieves?

For that vids i already talked about:
1) that guard is doing all the work…toggle it and see the Group fail at veterans
2) ele was ninja NERFED (or bugged as you prefer) bad last patch expecially in fractal…..have fun using 4 eles now….

Seems you know more of thieves than eles… ._.

I’m defending thieves in this particular thread because they seem to keep coming up. They really aren’t that good. I’m just sick of you denouncing Ele’s. Do you not know how insulting it is for other Ele’s who actually do a great job and win a lot of fights thanks to their skill when all you say is that we lose, we die, we can’t do anything, we’re useless. All you’re doing is thinking of it from your perspective.

Some of us are still having a blast on the profession, some of us still use it to do a lot of content, some of us are open minded in nerfs and buffs, and don’t want to keep bringing up other professions.

I have brought many up yes, but it is only ever in reply. Ele needs work, its not as bad as you make it out to be though, and that is whats highly annoying.

That is a real pain I’ll admit. I swear some people do it just to troll.

Ele

Great in PvP
Good in WvW
Viable in PvE. What are you talking about? Have you never seen a high level fractal group?

This is by far the hardest PvE content in game, and look at the level. More Ele’s than any other class in both, so what the hell are you still on about? I see you post over and over how bad Ele is in pvE, when its evident you just can’t play.

Stop heaping us all together with your terrible gameplay. Ele is still viable and greatly used in a lot of groups, stop QQing about how bad it is just because you can’t play it.

Also, I’ll repeat, warrior isn’t the king of pve, it pales in comparison to Guardian. Guardians are the only profession you need for certain content, they are also the only profession where you can have a party of 5 of them and face tank every boss apart from maybe lupicus and fractals in the game.

I’ll also add more just to make you look like a fool.

Here’s an Ele fighting a fairly well known skilled mesmer (which is considered to be the most broken class for 1v1’s) named Osicat. Ele staff is tremendously helpful in zerg fights and apart from group encounters you will encounter small scale fights like this. Here’s how well a D/D ele can stand up to one of the hardest professions to beat in a 1 on 1 ingame:

You won’t fight many skillful mesmers in WvW anyway, so most won’t even be as hard as that, let alone other professions being less of an issue in most cases.

So would you stop complaining? I hate having to think that just because you’re bad at playing Ele that new players get turned off from the profession.

Honestly Ronako, take this from someone who had a main profession identity crisis. I’ve tried them all, or almost all.

Warrior is definitely one of the funnest, and has me coming each time despite its large issues as a profession. It just has a certain charm and you will be praised by most when you win anything in competitive pvp because they are such a bad profession for it.

Ele also has its handful of issues, you should try them too to decide. Just don’t go to the Ele forums, its full of whiners more so than any other profession I’ve ever seen. Its not nearly half as bad as a profession as some people make it out to be there.

Banners buffs aren’t the problem, most people just don’t like carrying something extra. I can see why. Though honestly, I think far more people would use it if they had the same buffs, but were an aura you popped and your warrior was the focal point of the buff as a banner might be.

Must people are just too into their own weapons to pick up a crappy looking banner… I wish they all looked like a Warbanner

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

Daecollo.9578:

Class Description.
As a heavily armored soldier profession, warriors are only second to guardians in terms of enduring punishment.

Classes that are good at Enduring Punishment by List:
- Ranger. (Evade Spam/Mobility/Protection/Vigor/High Regeneration/Takes considerably less damage when almost dead.)
- Guardian. (Constant Protection/Vigor/High Regeneration.)
- Elementalist. (Constant Protection/Vigor/Regeneration.)
- Engineer. (Constant Protection/Vigor/Regeneration.)
- Mesmer. (Evades/Invuln Spam/Blinks.)
- Thief. (Evade Spam/Stealth Spam/Teleports.)
- Necromancer. (Bad Traits, Life-force doesn’t trait well with other skills.)
- Warrior. (No protection/Poor Condition Removal/Bad Traits.)

Something is wrong.

indeed something is wrong and that is your list XD.
Wariors can bunker too if they wanted to but they don’t feel the need to. All the other classes do. Even guardians because they have very low base hp. Stat wise the warior far out classes all the other professions in armor and hp. Why else are wariors always requested in dungeon runs?

Because PvE Dungeons are badly designed. They are based around high damage and high hp, this is why most teams run warriors, guardians and mesmers.

Warriors have high damage, mitigating the stupidly high amounts of hp some bossses have, giving artificial difficulty. The opposite is true for Guardians, who generally mitigate the stupid amounts of damage some dungeon mobs and bosses put out for more artificial difficulty.

And having a mesmer speeds this whole process up with time warp, can skip some parts using blink/mass invis/veil, and can even portal their team places.

Fundamentally, its PvE itself which is the problem. Imagine if dungeons had boss fight where a small hatch was visible to the boss’ heart and a ranger pet would be the only one able to fit, making the boss fight 50% easier and faster than otherwise. You’d see far more ranger requests for that dungeon, which just goes to show, if they designed dungeons more dynamically with different challenges, their would be more of a variety in profession demand.

Lol, erm excuse me? Shelving all our Ele’s? I’ll tell you what that is, that’s a bunch of bad FoTM players jumping onto the next most powerful and OP spec because Anet nerfed it. It happens in every MMO. Plus, you don’t even know if that is true, cmon its such a subjective bias to bring to this debate you’re having with Blaine.

I could point out how many Thieves in my guild have recently transferred to another profession due to nerfs and the feeling that the profession is lackluster. Yet, behold all the posts in this forum section in particular praising thieves superior abilities, even though I kill far more thieves than Ele’s, so much more easily. Subjective arguments like this aren’t prudent, especially when Arenanet is the only party involved in this affair with actual data, anything we have is just speculation.

I hate to play devil’s advocate, but maybe Anet has a reason for the changes they’ve made we don’t know about, such as hardcore tests in a controlled environment proving the contrary, or they are lining the Ele up for a big buff on other areas it needs by nerfing the most OP aspects of it etc. This should always be considered a possibility, and I’m not even a big faithful of Anet anymore.

Kaleban.9834:

Ralathar.7236:

Depends on your team composition.

Which is exactly how you don’t balance a profession. No one at ANet is balancing Thief Stealth around Engineer’s Smoke Bomb, or Warrior’s Adrenaline gain by standing in Fire fields.

Ele Staff for example should not require balance consideration around how many Guardians are using Might Blow at the time.

That’s an all around theme though. Anet has said over and over, most recently in the SoTG video last patch that they balance around team play. This to them justifies why warrior has no staying power and is terrible in most cases alone. This is why Ele staff has no viability in a 1v1 situation to the point its almost a free kill for most people. This is also why Mesmer is so strong in a 1v1 situation as they become more balanced and more realistic to beat in a team fight.

Anet doesn’t care for 1v1’s, though I’m willing to wager if they added a form of dueling they might. In fact, many of these new custom arenas are dueling servers, because people like the prospect of 1v1ing more than Anet anticipated it seems.

Ele’s aren’t the only profession which gets nerfs, some others for example, the Thief has had more nerfs than any other profession combined, and minimal buffs to conpensate. A big issue I feel is the culture in which Anet seems to buy into of nerfing everything as opposed to buffing. If other classes aren’t as strong as Ele at the time, buff them, don’t limit the Ele. Same applies to Guardians and Mesmers who can be considered the peak of balance. They are very well thought out, and work in all game modes, and the only reason they seem OP all the time is due to the other professions being UP in some KEY areas.

100b Is like the worst skill for a warrior to use in a pvp setting, and honestly, if you die to 1 hundred blades, you deserved it, its a really easy skill to dodge. I’m sure most of the warrior population would happily have it halved in damage if it actually hit for more than 30% of the time in pvp and more than 2 strikes.

Then again, as you keep stressing, you only care about PvE. Boy am I glad that Anet doesn’t think like you anymore and has decided to cater to more than one game mode. Skill splits are coming soon, and a lot of them. Look forward to it.

Sure Track no problem! I’ll update my post with a picture tonight or tomorrow, though I don’t have all the sets I want yet, I am using his first set right now, which is pretty cool in its own tentacle way.

I actually find everyone who has posted so far to look relatively awesome+cool with their characters regardless of race.

I actually had my choices come to me over time. I didn’t want to make a norn because, the male norn look fat, not muscular to me, just fat. Like whenever I see a Norn Male I think they will just crouch on the ground and start rolling for transportation, plus they look stupid in most armors imo. Norn Females look fine, but I don’t play female characters.

Charr Male Warrior was the choice I went with for a while, he is now Level 80 with max gear, plainly because of them being the most ferocious and barbaric-esque race to me, literally forged in war. I quickly ran into the problem most Charr players have though, and thats lack of armor choice due to them almost all looking horrible on charr as they are purely stretched out skins on the charr’s body without any real changes to make them suit the charr, its somewhat hit and miss. The Tier 3 heavy Charr armor is one of the best armors in game however I feel, ironically enough. Sadly it is the most overused Charr armor for this very reason and I didn’t like the idea of looking like every other Charr.

I later fell in love with the human race. They have the best lore imo, the best armor sets culturally and in general look the best when using the skills on warrior I’d say. A human male warrior using 100b looks so kitten its ridiculous. I have now settled on male human warrior, as they look great in almost every set of armor, can mix and match easily, and look kitten as kitten while using skills and their animations.

Edit: Also just to clarify, Charr are the biggest race. Norn look taller due to their posture, while a fully stood charr out does a Norn by a very noticeable height difference. Try the /salute emote on your charr near a max height norn and you will dwarf them, well be taller than them at least.

I like Galrond’s idea here. It gives versatility but with balance. It means Ele’s will have increased damage but also be more vulnerable during fire attunement. The opposite in earth, very good suggestion imo.

@osif

I’ve never been caught with a Killshot on my squishy classes. Most I’ve had done to me with one was about 7k I believe, long ago, on my guardian nonetheless. I suppose its down to most groups my guild group coming across not being pressuring enough to use up our evades to avoid Killshot, but generally most warriors become useless for 2 seconds and sit there crouched, get evaded then switch sets. Its subjective sure, but then Kill shot isn’t an inherently good, or bad skill, its just the application of it. Warrior sustain is inherently bad due to reasons you’ve stated yourself, that is all that is being discussed here I believe, or the intention after all.

There are probably reasons most people don’t consider for why warriors are so easy to counter. But that’s the thing, they are a strong class… But every class just has such nice counters to them, that it is almost like they cater to countering them specifically.

Moderate because I consider all aspects of WvW. Not everyone enjoys group composition or large scale fights. Some literally go to WvW to Roam. Warriors are very good in Largescale fights yes, but moderate in small group fights (most people target warriors first because they usually can’t support themselves) and roaming. (Mobility is great of course, but their roaming is hampered by lack of staying power mostly.)

Ele’s I believe to be amazing in WvW, but unless I post them to be moderate people will QQ and moan about how they are only moderate, and thus I decided to take onboard their concerns too and lined it as moderate.

Anyway my point stands, Warrior is hardly the ‘golden child’. To the point their “buff” last patch was mostly useless, (Dogged March is somewhat useful but, 3 Second Regen is pretty… well 3 seconds I mean cmon.). Warriors didn’t need a buff in damage.