Guild Wars 2

I’m going to use this free trial weekend to get a look at the NPE and Traits from the position of someone who literally is starting the game with nothing. We’ll see how it goes and how my knowledge of the game might affect that experience.

Kuldebar.1897:

To put it simply, what should have happened:

• The standard Traits, ie. the core Traits, should have been left as they were in regards to how they were acquired. (This is not to say the Traits for various Professions don’t need tweaking and fixes, of course!)

• New Traits should have been introduced into the game, and those Traits would be tied to various well chosen content gated activities or achievements.

Thus allowing the player to acquire the Core Traits more or less as intended while serving up some “Elite” Traits that would inspire the Player to tackle some fun challenges.

sadly thats what a lot of people thought was going to happen, and then it never went that route. :/

Liewec.2896:

you unlock feet at a later level.
get grinding!

OK, that got a chuckle out of me too.

Well played. i needed that.

OK, so honest question: has there been any response on any of the OTHER threads about this issue?

Page 4. OK. Well, I guess since its not a bug its fallen by the wayside again. Problem is, even after the NPE stuff is hashed out, this trait problem (and it IS a problem) is still going to be here. Question is, how many players (new and old) will be here after having complained about this issue?

Gaile Gray.6029:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

I just posted about this in the bug forum. I find this pretty horrifying when I am looking at my character in the hero panel.

And bingo! That is what you do for maximum visibility and for the greatest likelihood that the issue will be noted and resolved. Better still, look for and post in an existing thread, but make a new thread if you don’t find one already in the Bug Forum.

Thank you.

People HAVE done that. Numerous times. People have also reported the bug in game using the report feature, but even that tells you that you might not get any confirmation about whether its being looked at.

This goes back to the other thing i stated in another tread about how people react when they feel like they are not being heard.

OK. Well, since I didn’t see if there was going to be a more focused thread with/for feedback on the system I will write out my take on the system as it stands right now and hope it gets heard/read here and just assume that is the route Anet is taking on this one:

Up front info – I currently have my test engie up to level 49 and just completed the level 40 story step.

Early Leveling 1-10

Certain changes have since been made to certain things regarding this part of the experience (skill points, etc), but I will comment on them from the perspective of a player coming into it for the first time. The leveling is fairly fast and the tips in the awards window could use both some polishing on the wording so as to not confuse new players about what is actually locked/unlocked or what they are just being made aware of at a given level. I’ve also mentioned before that it is very easy to just click that window closed before ever realizing that the items in that window are clickable for more info. The rewards during leveling here are some nice new additions for starter players as far as I could tell and the level up rewards window is a good change over all IMO.

Although most fights were fairly easy, there were a few times where it was only my knowledge of engie that was able to keep me alive with the limited skills/utilities that I had. Also, the downed state having level gated skills and a complete lack of a tutorial is going to frustrate new players more than just having a downed state in the first place.

Levels 11-20

Mostly flew by for me, and map opening was a breeze, but then again it was never really an issue at this stage. I relaized during this time that had i been playing, say a thief, as a beginning player, that the skill unlocks for all the weapon combos would have been a touch vexxing to learn the nuances of as compared to the old system. i would have been quite confused about everything from the dual skills to weapon swapping and was glad i was running this test on an engie.

Levels 21-30

Now in a groove I start contemplating things like the dungeons and the Personal Story. How are they going to mesh? The game still alerts me to when AC opens to me, but my intro to why I’d want to or “need” to do the story mission hasn’t come up by this point. It was also somewhere in here that my game glitched with the bundle glitch and I ended up with my remaining utilities and my elite. i mention this because I found myself in situations due to the power hills and valleys the new leveling system creates, that i would have categorically died during had I not had the mistfire wolves to do that extra damage, or those other utilies to increase my chances of survival. Read that last part again. Had the game not glitched in my favor, I would have been less able to play certain areas I was in without dying. I can’t imagine a new player with everything working as planned enjoying that experience of repeated deaths after feeling like nothing could touch them.

Levels 31-40

By this point things are now feeling like “normal” for me. Leveling up rewards are still a nice touch. Dungeons and PS are still not syncing. Goggles broken again for players. Trait acquistion is still going to be an utter nightmare for players. Not so much for people first opening the map and exploring every corner of the world, but definitely on their second toon and 100% definitely for anyone running an alt.

I hate that JP, and hate it even more that i will have to do it to get that last set of goggles. That being said, yeah reported this bug again last night.

Honestly, the best thing they can do now is the same that they have shown they can already do with this latest update and that’s make traits account bound, so vets have their traits to play with and new players (who are probably map opening for the first time on a toon) have a chance to hunt down and possibly get most of their traits via exploration organically.

*EDIT: The only reaosn I am advocating at least this change is because I cannot see them actually making any moves on most of the other (really great) suggestions on this thread for any number of reasons/excuses.

Thank you.

Anyone else having issues with applying sigils to weapons? Was this another gated feature?

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

calyx.9086:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

you know what would have been an even neater back piece? A cape with our guild emblem. It might even be bought in droves by players.

You know… Just this really weird, heretical thought on this…
But…
If they could make capes that worked for everyone… Don’t you think they would have done it by now?

Pretty sure if they can make big bulky back items that worked for everyone that they could have already come up with a cape design that would as well.

You obviously don’t understand anything about in-game physics.

This, basically.
Last game I saw that did capes well was City of Heroes, and even there, the amount of clipping that could happen was beyond belief. I saw capes turn into ampersand twists that would make a pretzel factory jealous.
And City of Heroes (as much as I /truly/ loved that game…) was not anywhere near the graphics level of Guild Wars 2.

Actually i know a fair bit about it. I also know that clipping occurs now on armor and there have been times when my toons have been bent to kitten and back after their animation went wonky mid move. I also remember all of those things happening with capes in GW1, yet surprise surprise, we had them there just fine, clipping issues and all.

To argue that the people at Anet can’t figure out how to animate them for jumping or swimming, etc is both a joke and an insult to the people who work on this game.

Gaile Gray.6029:

JackDaniels.1697:

Everybody that hates the NPE is going to take over the discussion after all the fixes have been released I believe. You’re going to see multiple posts by the same people that hate it, and it’s going to seem like a lot more people dislike the new changes, when in reality, it’s just those same people that really want to make their point across. And not that there is anything wrong with posting more than once, it is a discussion after all, but you get my point.

I mean you can see the evidence of it now, with people complaining in one thread over the subject, and then having some of those same people from that thread start up new threads on pretty much the same topic.

I do agree that some minor changes need to happen, but hopefully Anet doesn’t give in to the pressure and make a complete 180 to the NPE, because I believe some of these changes are good for the game.

So I can’t wait to chime in when all the fixes are done. Should be interesting.

I agree with you about this. I think it’s premature to gauge how NPE will play at the current time, because we do know changes are coming.

And yes, you do see some forum members making the same points again and again. That truly is not helpful to the review and discussion, in that the devs would prefer a focused, clear, concise statement rather than realizing “Wait, it’s that same person, saying the same thing for the 19th time.”

While i get the reasons and sentiment here Gaile, from our perspective, many of us played it ArenaNet’s way back in April regarding the trait changes and we went ignored for 4-5 months before we got a single reply back from anyone over there while that post made it to roughly 40 pages of both complaints and feedback, only to be told to re-summarize the points because it would have been too much to pour through the entire thread. That was building. For FOUR months.

So no, now people are going to continue to make thread after thread to make sure that their voice is heard and the forum is flooded so it cannot be so easily ignored. The fact that these posts can’t be buried to page 3, 4, 5, or 6 now makes it so these things HAVE to be addressed before it gets to the next feature patch.

Now, I’m willing to drop feedback from my time now with the new system now that i have played it though to level 40 with my third test alt. Question is, do you guys want that feedback in this thread or a specific thread for said feedback? i ask because I don’t want to “add to the noise” if there is a plan for a focused feedback thread on the NPE in particular, but I want to be sure that whatever i right up will be read and not be asked to summarize it later.

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

you know what would have been an even neater back piece? A cape with our guild emblem. It might even be bought in droves by players.

You know… Just this really weird, heretical thought on this…
But…
If they could make capes that worked for everyone… Don’t you think they would have done it by now?

Pretty sure if they can make big bulky back items that worked for everyone that they could have already come up with a cape design that would as well.

you know what would have been an even neater back piece? A cape with our guild emblem. It might even be bought in droves by players.

Reisinger.4203:

Are you telling me Legos, deers, and sheeps aren’t actual words too? :O

Technically it should always be written as LEGO bricks as LEGO is the brand name.

Yeah, coverage is always going to be key in WvW. I don’t see this getting addressed in a meaningful way anytime soon simply because i don’t think there are many ways to combat this particular issue. If you have a block of time when your server can’t be on and another server has enough people, they will night/day/whatever cap and get a higher PPT. :/ sad, but true.

i think the purpose of these things was to both get people a chance at slowing down a zerg at the gates and 2 making that zerg build more defensively to help reflect and block the disablers. Seriously, how many people when attacking gates with siege still equip blocks and reflects to use at he gate/on their siege? Probably not many, even though this was clearly stated as the defense against these traps.

• Build/Place a Siege Golem
• Place 10 feasts (food) in WvW
• Unlock a feast recipee
• Use the Mystic Forge in a keep
• Complete a WvW Jumping Puzzle
• Upgrade a location (camp/tower/…)
• Use a siege disabler to disable enemy siege
• Kill an enemy player by knocking it out of the map (EotM) or through fall dmg
• Use a finisher on all 8 combo fields (while in WvW)
• Upgrade a siege blueprint in the Mystic Forge
• Kill an enemy player in Obsidian Sanctum
• Get killed by an enemy player in Obsidian Sanctum
• Die while intoxicated in a WvW map
• Activate a npc commander
• Rally from an enemy player

Many of those are HORRIBLE things to turn into cheevos. Not all of them, but many of them basically reward trolling behavior in WvW. O.o

I have to admit, the rewards have been very nifty. One of them at some point is 8 skill points and another was an 8 slot invisi bag. Kudos on these rewards Anet.

Talindra.4958:

You cant access to changing dyes colour on armour until your toon reaches lvl6. My 4 yo only really play with dyes for her toons tht she delete and recreate (i restrict her play time in gw2 so pls dont come and bash me with bad parenting comments :p ) now she cant do tht until she lvl her toon to lvl6.. :o she only interested in create and recreate new toons.. :p she said mummy help me pls… arghh lool…. arghhhhhhhhh

That has to be a bug unless she is playing on an account with no level 80s. I had access to my wardrobe and dyes before ever leaving the starter tutorial area.

The thing to remember is that it is only carrot on a stick to new players. Vet players can still open those first maps however they want and get into as much trouble over their heads as they’d like. Granted, I am no longer allowed to do my personal story while under leveled so that self imposed challenge I was having fun with is gone, but I’m hopeful they will un-do a chunk of these changes for people with established level 80s.

I am actually liking the collection thing a bit more than I thought I would, I will admit. It might be something I actually make into a questing thing for one of my toons. Maybe my sylvari. She might like spoons.

zenleto.6179:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

My only worry is AC unlocking before you know why you’d be going there story wise due to PS gating.

They must have talked about this in meetings. Contrary to forum belief, these guys and girls aren’t stupid so I’m wondering what’s coming up. What is in the “background”? I don’t need to know right now and I don’t go for conspiracy theories but it seems odd.

You be surprised what can fall through the cracks detail wise when trying to big picture things for a game. I think there were a lot of big picture changes envisioned for the game which lead to some unintended consequences, which in turn has let to the kitten storm on the boards and in map chat.

I’m sure they will look it all over again though once players have vented and reported various things.

Makes me remember an article where they spoke to the people over at Valve about Portal and how all the devs had a big laugh over the loop that goes rolling by at the end. The all thought that was going to turn into the next big internet joke/meme, etc and after the game released everyone focused in on “the cake is a lie” which was some random throw away the devs had more or less forgotten about. Basically what devs think when making the game and what the players take away from it can usually be two very different things.

Nkuvu.2570:

nexxe.7081:

Are you serious? OP must be trolling. Anyone have proof?

I wish I was trolling. Then there might be some comedy here (aside from the Bohemian Rhapsody attempt early in the thread (edit: And aside from dace’s incredible post that I can’t believe I forgot to mention. That was great.)).

I don’t currently know what level the goggles unlock, unfortunately. But I read about this gate on Reddit, and had to make a character for myself to see.

First: Which map is that?
Second: I think you can use them by level 7 which seems to be when they make certain others things visible/available to new players.
Third: I think this is something that isn’t supposed to be gated from vet players.

Zoso, I agree, I think gating the utils at most until level 25 with the elite still at 30 is better. This way you have time to get used to those skills before potentially doing AC. My only worry is AC unlocking before you know why you’d be going there story wise due to PS gating.

Its funny, but even have a level 80 of every class and at least one of every race almost all fully set up with exotics, I think I’ve done 6 or maybe 7 dungeons, and have only ever repeated 3 of them more than once. (I’m not a big dungeon or fractals person), but the fun part is I can decide to do that content or PvP later if i so choose. I worry that those things will feel like they have a larger barrier to entry for new players.

Tachenon.5270:

Well, it’s like trying to say something nice about the gold accents on the new fine china when there’s a dead skunk on the table, but yeah, I guess it’s not all bad.

I wouldn’t quite go that far, but yes.

I will say this: From the things I’ve read (and no I’m not hunting down each instance of something that made me raise an eyebrow) it does look like someone is at least reading what we’ve been saying.

Now, does this mean that I agree with how long its taken for them to acknowledge this/us? Nope.

Do I think they could have acted sooner/with more gusto? Yep.

Do I think they are just ignoring us? Not at all.

If we can try to keep this thread on point though with good/solid suggestions and reminders that we still care about fixing the system though we might be able to keep the proverbial fire at their feet.

No, it certainly isn’t and i do want the devs to know that this update is actually pretty fun for the most part. For any gripes I have with the trait system as it stands i know from a dev standpoint that it will be much harder to fix coding wise. This update has more things that are more easily addressed (I feel) and if they don’t wait 5 months to address them then its all good. These other things in this update though have been awesome and my level 80s are loving the kitten out of them.

Pretty sure it was to come back after Halloween.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Vayne clearly doenst know fragmentation shot of engineer. If she/he would, then she would be horrified by how lackluster that auto attack is, and how much it slow the game down, by being locked to that one skill for a long while.

I just did an engie last night for my 3rd test of the new system. I wasn’t stuck with my number skill past the tutorial as it jumps you to level 2 immediately and it just took a DivReach opening and I think 2 hearts before my third skill opened up. Getting to level 10 wasn’t horrible and i could do it my way going anywhere (level 5 going to map areas meant for level 9 and 10) and didn’t die once. Its all good.

I still worry that certain class with a lot of skills/weapon combos (warriors and thieves) are going to be confused by all the new skills and skill combos with the way the new system just has them all open by level 10, but thats a gripe for another test to be done by a brand new player. Vets won’t notice it since those of us that have played those classes just know the skills so its a boon to us.

OK, so I think its clear I have a few issues with some things in the game as of late (some aspects of the NPE and Traits >:( yeah, those), but be that as it may I think I just wanted to give a quick thank you for the things that i think were just right on this update:

Skill balances:
Really liking A LOT of the skill changes/balances this go through. Seriously. The ranger ones were long over do. Please do not touch them. Please. The Mez scepter, although fun can be a teensy bit OP, but I’m sure that will be easier to balance.

Map Changes:
Some waypoint and heart person re-locations. Seems like a small thing, but they feel better where they are, except for the bunny thing in Wayfarers. That feels wrong.

TP is taking some getting used to, and I was fairly indifferent about it before, but I can see how its new layout can be more user friendly.

Crafting:
Yeah, I like the recipe navigation A LOT.

Combat Reporting:
The ability to track that info on such a specific level has been great for me recently when testing builds and I love it. Probably my favorite thing about this update thus far to be honest.

New Level Up icon and Info:
I actually like this a lot. It was long over-do and with a few tweaks i think will be a great tool for first time players.

Yeah, all in all I don’t HATE the new system as much as I hate the trait issue. It is actually good for new players and I do like seeing that level up window pop up. I know its mostly eye candy/info but some of the new rewards are neat. They might need to be adjusted slightly (gathering tools need to be rewarded at level 7 IMO).

That being said, as a vet the skill point gating and utility gating are my biggest issues, with kitten poor dodge tutorial and needless dumbing down of proper in game tutorials (bundles).

OK, so I just did my 3 test last night.

Parameters of the test: Shut off the feature by going under the options and rolled up an engie in human form. This was done for a few reasons. First I am hyper familiar with Engie as it is one of my 2 mains and secondly because I am also hyper familiar with Queensdale map.

The purpose of this test was to “vet” it on the map and go about leveling as close to how I used to do it and see how the various fights and gating felt as I pushed my toon through non-level appropriate content like I tend to do.

Overall Outcome: Although the skill gating was still annoying to level 10 (personal gripe) I was able to roll with it fairly easily and I think that brand new players might be split 50/50 on this system being so new to the game. All in all my experience wasn’t really diminished except when it came to the skill points (and there was something interesting that happened there which I’ll get to.) My knowledge of the area carried me through the zones easily and when I got to level 13 I went and snagged those 5 easy skill points in Queensdale/home instance.

Quick Points: Having known at one time that new players weren’t treated with kid gloves and could do things like pick up a pail and water some corn meant that I felt insulted doing that particular heart. Now I know its been mentioned a lot here, but hear me out. If it insults a large number of your existing players, they will talk about it, even in front of your new players. New players will then feel insulted that the system was dumbed down for them. More importantly these early hearts ACTUALLY TAUGHT PLAYERS about how to use bundles through actual gameplay. In essence you’ve actually removed in game tutorials that might have helped them.

Dodging training: Just poorly implemented for the reason I’ve stated time and time again. It teaches new players how to dodge INTO the middle of red rings and stand there. For loot.

Skill Points: So after I went and got my 5 initial skill points I went and bought myself my healing turret (far superior to the other heals on engie hehe), rifle turret and grenade kit. I then went out into the world and for the next 10 minutes never actually equipped my healing turret or rifle turret! Why? Because at this point I was so used to not changing those default skills that even though I bought them I ignored the new skills I just bought! And I KNEW they were there. If someone that has as many level 80 alts as me who has put in THAT much time into playing different builds with different skills on those alts can be that easily conditioned to suddenly forget to equip the new skills they just bought, just think how many brand new players might just forget to even SPEND the skill points they get early on. Now maybe its because I’m still sporting a cold/fever but still, this might be something to get feedback on to see what the rate of new skill adoption is by new players going through this new system.

Suggestions:
Allow the gating to either go faster or not at all for vets. This is not going to be fixed by giving us level XX jump scrolls. Just take it out for anyone with at least 3 level 80s on their account. This is especially true for the skill point gating. It needs to stop for vets.

Fix the dodge tutorial and turn it into a heart if need be. IDEA: Urk the Ettin needs help training. Help him train by dodging his big telegraphed attack. Dodge 5 times successfully for a small chest. A lesson like this is far more rewarding and far more applicable to the game new players will be playing.

Introduce the reward of gathering tools at level 7. This will at least marry up more to where those nodes begin to appear on the map. It just makes sense. The way it is now doesn’t.

Make it obvious for new players that they have to click on the items in the info window to get more info on the things that have just unlocked. If not they might still miss it when their profession skills unlock, which then doesn’t serve anyone.

Colin, thank you for the reply.

Here’s the thing about this update thus far: I get where you were going with this and I actually like the UI changes when leveling. Those really do help feel like something good has happened, etc.

Problem is I think the entire experience will be overly drawn out for brand new players and horrifically tedious for vets that like to alt. Simply put, good idea but poor implementation. I do hope that some of those bugs get fixed sooner rather than later, but I also want Anet to understand that you all have lost a lot of revenue with this. Retaining regular customers is far more beneficial than trying to make new ones, and this update hurts both of those lines of revenue for you.

I have. Twice. I’m not a fan. I get what they were trying to do, and in some ways i agree that they succeeded on certain feelings during the process, but unfortunately the over all execution was poor.

OK, just did the sylvari mesmer and oy was it ever painful. I explicitly followed the tips on where to go and what to do and not only was it fairly boring because it wasn;t ME who was exploring, but the game itself, but at one point it literally had me bouncing around to and fro for events and poi’s and yeah. It got me stuck in a weird loop, so that was probably not supposed to happen. Also it just felt like it took WAY longer than the norn ranger to do anything/get anywhere. its safe to say that any alts that are made will most likely need scrolls just to make the process far less painful for vets but I also really worry that new players will just walk out of frustration.

Selene.9415:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

So, for my second test tonight, any suggestions on which class/area i should test in? i just did norn ranger. Test will run from level 1-15ish, no scroll help, etc.

Sylvari Mesmer

I’d ask if you hated me, but this is a good suggestion. I’ll give it a whirl and report back.

nastyjman.8207:

thepalemagpie.9625:

I had gathering, dodging, tp and bank and guild open starting a new character. O.o I was able to use all of these straight away. People are blowing things out of proportion instead of actually looking around and playing the game.

Shhhhh… the hate train is still choo-chooing. You musn’t derail it.

Shhhhh…some of us understand that there is a difference between accounts with established level 80s and a brand new account.

So, for my second test tonight, any suggestions on which class/area i should test in? i just did norn ranger. Test will run from level 1-15ish, no scroll help, etc.

CrashTestAuto.9108:

I hope that with all of the complaints that have flooded in about levelling since the feature patch, that the biggest and worst change to new characters won’t be forgotten…

With the handful of trait changes in this last patch I can’t imagine this being more than a time game for the devs. Give a few things here and there and hope enough time goes by that no one cares to push or additional changes.

You mean you were also OK with the ever enlightening “Dodge into and stand in the red circle to get your loot” lesson?

I knew they rearranged some of the later ones, but why’s they remove things??? JEEZ.

Deep breath

Seriously Anet…

Wait, they removed parts of the personal story? Which ones and how did i miss this?

Doooooood. this is going to get deleted with the quickness.

Its like there is a forum ban on talking about the NCSoft/Wildstar connection to all of this. i could be wrong, but I’m just going off of my past experience with topics like these.

Vistas should never be considered endgame. One, they slowly taught people about jumping puzzle mechanics with harder and harder vistas to get to as you went along and two, they helped show off areas and areas of interest on certain maps. gating them behind level 10 is horrible and doesn’t promote exploration, which was another thing Anet said their game was supposed to be about.

Vayne.8563:

Swizzle.7982:

“In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.” ~ A Sword Swinging Backpeddler

And people wonder why Anet won’t talk to them. A quote from a four year old video is still being quoted today and used as a weapon of sorts.

Anet should just shut up and stop saying anything. It might come back to haunt them.

Its because Anet HUNG THEIR HAT on this. This was their mantra. This was their cudgel that they used to beat the idea that their game wasn’t like the rest. This was their “angle” to get people interested in jumping on board. It was their “promise” to us as players and early adopters of the game and they have gone against it in the worse way.

if they want to come back and say “hey we were wrong to go in this direction and we are trying to bring the game back to something more familiar” then fine. I won’t be happy, but I’d appreciate the honesty. At this rate they might as well start trying to shop their game as having “the ultimate customizable holy trinity” and just throw that concept of theirs under the bus as well.

i work in an industry that makes LMS (Learning Management Systems for people not familiar with the term) for companies. Specifically we make training scenarios in virtual game like worlds. I think I know a thing or two about working tutorials into game like environments and this patch is utter nonsense.

See, the thing is, when i opened Wayfarers before, I’d start at Issomir then go clockwise around that lower area. It made opening that part real easy and got me to a good level for the personal story. Now there is no reason for a new player to explore into that cave and possibly miss that Vista in there. The bunny one was also ina great spot before because it was out of the way and married nicely with the Jackalope event. Don’t even get me started on the cow feeding and corn groping thing.