Guild Wars 2

Elorna.5329:

GW2 lacks two things to be considered e-sports – a proper PvP mode and enough of a playerbase so that words like “top”, “mid” and “bottom” tier even get some meaning. The second would come if the first was sorted out. Stronghold won’t help in that regard. The other issues like the questionable downed state, uneven distribution of various game changing mechanics across professions (invulns, stealth, etc.) are just secondary problems that could come into play if the PvP mode itself was better. The best you can do here is have fun and not worry too much about balance, even in the so called top tiers. Often times that means not playing rangers unfortunately.

Well, this is your opinion. GW2 has enough of a playerbase that take the game very seriously that things like a meta are formed and if 1-2 classes are constantly on the bottom, it’s sad.

I really like playing ranger, but I don’t like playing stuff that is clearly worse than others. I made this thread to highlight the things I’ve come across especially after the most recent patch, but those actually have been problems of condition-based rangers for as long as I can remember.

I pointed them out because I think they aren’t easily seen be any1 not heavily involved in coming up and testing out new builds and playing them against high level players/teams.

Right now, I feel that ranger only needs a teeny tiny push to be viable and fun in PvP and have a distinct place in it, since traps offer a lot that no other class can do quite the same:

1) invisible pre-trapping of pathways/nodes
2) Being able to see ticks of conditions applied by your traps at any distance on the map gives you vision of the positioning of anything that activated your traps. This can be a good early warning on bigger maps.
3) heavy AoE-condition, more than any other class
4) good counterplay to stealth, since they will activate the traps even if stealthed of course

Also, some of the traits or very interesting and bring a new level of skill to the ranger, like taunt, which makes positioning and keeping your pets alive much harder but more rewarding.
Quick Draw, which works very well with the often different skills of the weapons, which entail defensive stuff like evades, AoE, ranged, melee atk, movements, combos etc. – so it’s really intense to always pick the right skill on the spot.

Ranger just feels amazing now, but IMHO, those little aspects keep him from being good enough of being used competetively a bit more frequently.

I don’t see how any1 could disagree with this, but it’s obviously simply my opinion.

wonder if they’ve added some new crates and animations for the guildlords in stronghold….. -.-°

OR if they’ve actually listened to the abundantly available feedback on the mode.

Puck.9612:

PowerBottom.5796:

2) what is a puck build? I’d really appreciate a link.

Scroll up.

The traits have been out a couple weeks, stop looking at what other people are running and do some experimenting.

mhmm…. may I ask you how many competetive games in premades you have on ranger? I don’t understand at all what this build is supposed to do that other classes/builds don’t do 10times better. I see no reason any1 in competetive PvP would ever play that build.

You invest so much into the bird, which is extremely squishy and single-target only, so completely useless in teamfights to make him do a taunt and a bit of DMG and I can grab 1 trait that helps me for 1 heal and 2 utilities and do more dps in AoE with 1 utility 10 times faster.
The bird will literally die in 1 drakes breath on you and your pet or a few nades and stuff from an Engi.

I like the Idea of the guard just for the buffs, but if you want to compete in terms of DPS with other classes, you won’t have space for multiple utilities of that nature.

And that’s what I want to say: There are little things that rangers need to worry about and tinker on their builds and make sacrifices that others classes don’t have to, or not anymore.

@LughLongArm: what kind of an answer is that: It shouldn’t concern me that it’s not viable on a top-level? That’s what this thread is about! -.-°

Besides that, I was in multiple top-20 Worldwide GvG Guilds in GW1 for years (CC, BdV for example), I was best swiss player in SC2 for quite some time with multiple national tournament-wins and top200 EU, I was a national player in many TCG’s and I was pretty decent in GW2 when it first came out with 5k+ games and about 1k full premade teamgames. So yes, I do think about what’s useful ON TOP of the game and not in the middle. And that’s what this thread is about. If you think Puck’s build is viable, go have fun with it. I can tell you that It’ll not win any ESL’s soon though.

Puck.9612:

PowerBottom.5796:

2) what is a puck build? I’d really appreciate a link.

Scroll up.

The traits have been out a couple weeks, stop looking at what other people are running and do some experimenting.

have you even read anything other than the sentence in which your name was mentioned?

I’ve been testing tons of stuff and I stated my experience with it.

I simply asked for the build because the other poster keeps mentioning amazing builds and says my points aren’t valid without ever elaborating or even giving me links to those builds.

LughLongArm.5460:

“attitudes of ppl like you are ruining this game.”
Exacly the kind of false declarations you so love to make.

I cant give you a “solution to your problem” cus the problems presented are not realy a problems, they’r just false declarations.

1)BM is one of the most used trait lines ATM calling it unused or useless is a false decleration.

2)“Cele-Amu not viable, but it needs to be” – celce is very viable for the right builds – look at puck build for example.

3)“with the squishy rabid-amu” – rabid is an amulet with 900 toughness , how is it squishy?

4)SB is an hybrid weapon not a condi weapon that can do massive DPS.

5) traveler is a very good option for hybrid builds both 10% to condi duration and 15% to boon duration are very rare ATM, it also gives 252 worth of normal stats which is more than most rune sets. celec gear already have tons of bonos stats over regular amulet. If your build is suited for celec and you take full advantage of all the stats, u enjoy over 30% in stats worth over a “type focused build”.

Just go over this forum and look for the topics of how celec condi ranger in undefeated in 1v1.

1) The ONLY ranger-builds I saw played in the last 4 ESL cups (I think it was 4…. all the ones since the update) by prominent teams were using skirmishing, wilderness survival and nature and traps. Also, I never said unused or unusable, but “The Swiftness on Shouts I kinda like, but it forces you into a traitline you don’t really want to go in in most builds.” This was based on my testing and the builds i’ve seen played on a high level. Check out the latest ESl cups here if you don’t believe me.

http://www.twitch.tv/jebrounity/profile/past_broadcasts
http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/profile/past_broadcasts

2) what is a puck build? I’d really appreciate a link.

3) Rabid Amu has a rather low health pool with ranger now an with the new and much faster ticking conditions like burning, you’ll simply fall easily within the 10 second time-frame you don’t have a condi-cleanse from your pet (if you use empathic bond for example). Also, being squishy not only depends on health/armor-pool but sustain. being that regen is the source of most of the rangers sustain and that it’s heavily depending on healing power, you have almost no sustain whatsoever on the builds that run rabid-amu.

4) Shortbow doesn’t do massive DMG neither in physical nor condi-form. And a mixed weapon or utility weapon is fine, I simply stated that one of the problems I find impactful on the ranger is that the shortbow is too heavily tied to sigils when you want to do condition-damage, which is simply a fact. It won’t do much ranged condition-dmg without precision and earth/torment sigils. This on the other hand makes it a extremely low dps weapon on settlers amu. Plz tell me how this is a false declaration (hilarious expression btw. you really crack me up)

5) I never said travelers is bad, but that it brings certain limitations and problems with it that other classes don’t have. And the classes that don’t have those problems just happen to be the ones successfully used in pvp for months now (mostly on cele-builds). Almost all the cele-based builds are heavily dependant on using runes like hoelbrak, vampirism, strength or pack or sth.

Besides: 1v1 and competetive 5v5 are uncomparable. Yes, in 5v5 there are also 1v1’s happening, but even the builds that are used for roaming never look like the ones used for pure 1v1’s, because they are ONLY usable in those situations. In 5v5, no1 uses those builds: In 5v5, the builds that are jack-of-all-trades are getting used the most, which look entirely different from the 1v1 builds I’ve encountered in my (yes, very limited) pure 1v1 experience.

If you’re talking about 1v1, you might be completely right about everything you’ve said, in which case i apologize and stress that I am talking about 5v5 on a fairly high and premade level (r80 and 5k+ games, at least 1k+ premade teamgames on the people I play with most often).

LughLongArm.5460:

Its funny how some players want to balance the game around their build instead of balancing their build around the game.

Your post is made of a series of false declarations.

How so? Plz elaborate.

In terms of movement-speed: I’ve stated the options and why they aren’t useful in my opinion for condition-builds or not on the same level as on other classes.

Shortbow has the lowest condition-dmg of weapons that can be looked at as condition-based.

And every viable condition-build we’ve seen played more than maybe 1 random failed try have been using cele. And I’m not talking about random PvP, but high-end competetive play.

Every claim I made has been well underlined with either facts or clearly stated as my own opinion, based on what I have tried out.

Just another trollpost….. be ashamed of yourself plz.

You know, maybe show me a build where you found a solution to a problem or some VoD’s of successful builds in pvp or anything besides useless BS. I’m getting tired of this community….

attitudes of ppl like you are ruining this game.

NeXeD.3042:

S/d doesn’t not have better sustain than d/d or d/f. No.

thanks for supporting my point with your double negative.

Aomine.5012:

PowerBottom.5796:

I really wonder how long it’ll take ppl to realize that S/D Ele is way more over the top atm than D/D-Ele…..

- Perma-Fury and mightstacks for the whole team (I can stack before game starts and right at the node and the team has like easily 30+ seconds of fury and almost 25 mightstacks that last for ages.
- 15k+ combos every ~10 seconds
- Better Sustain than D/D
- Less interruptable than D/D (on skills which would have longer cooldown when Powerblocked)
- To a big part ranged, which brings a whole mess of huge advantages
- Arcane Precision gives easily applied perma-weakness
- Almost the whole fire trait-line buffs power-dmg, which is more important on an S/D-Ele

Yes, in some MU’s, the D/D is better, for example against Thief. But S/D still pwns Thief easily and is way better in almost all other situations.

I’ve been saying it for a week that S/D is god-tier amongst all classes and builds and some ppl are starting to realize it’s true.

Suggested Changes:

- Persisting Flames only applies fury in combat.
- either one of the +10% when in fire or when attacking burning targets has got to go.
-Burning Fire: Changed amount of Might-stacks to 2

Can you prove the “better sustain part”?
I’m really curious.

So far usually the one that I can never kill are either D/D or D/F. The aura proc (stun-lock, chill, burn, very annoying), the evade, the auto spam for heal and the healing potential is just too much…
S/F or S/D still seems like kill or be killed type of play-style most of the time.

And then there’s this old topic of D/D can abuse the new burning stacks while maintain great dps with celestial and might stack, while S/F has to go Zerk for sufficient damage.

No1’s talking about S/F and no, you don’t have to go zerk anymore for sufficient DMG on mainhand-scepter. Let me tell you what changed since the patch, which greatly increased the DPS of Scepter mainhand while running cele-amulet:

- Base stats got higher, which means that cele-builds, which almost never put point into fire, got more power as a baseline.
- Multiple easy ways of getting permanent fury, which is highly beneficial for scepter
- Fire-Attunemt gives additional 150 Power (so for the spike, I have essentially 150 power more and during the channeling of Air1, I can already switch to Fire and keep channeling and get the 150 more Power for a big part of the sustained DMG as well.
- Fire has +10% dps when attuned to fire and +10% against burning targets, both favouring power-based DMG more than condition.
- Fire has additional easy mightstacking, which gives Scepter the chance to get to surreal power-numbers. Add Perma-Fury and maybe an accuracy sigil and I have better stats than any Zerker-Scepter Ele ever had before patch.
- Arcane precision is ridiculous on Scepter, you can just auto from range with air 1 and apply perma-weakness, which is not possible on D/D or Staff. Still the trait is often a way better choiceon D/D than the vigor on crit, since you already have enough vigor from cantrips and EA. So Scepter just makes better use of it.

Oh and Scepter still makes use of the condition-dmg, so that’s not going to waste either. Not as much as D/D of course, but it’s not just a dead attribute where I unnecessarily waste points.

Concerning the sustain:
- Added toughness from Earth 2
- 2 blinds
- water 3 also removes a condition cuz of reg, is less easily interrupted and can be better targeted onto allies.
- Fire 3 gives vigor and removes a condition
- Auto’s are faster on D/D, yes, but S/D has instants like Air 2 and 3, and quick spells like earth3 etc. So not having tested it, I’d say the Signet is about equally as strong.
- Add in the fact that a well positioned ranged build can dish out damage while not eating tons of AoE and at least situationally, S/D has higher sustain.

absolutely not.

Everything will be decided by metagaming the other team and team setups will revolve around spamming either conditions, or hexes, since you cannot clear them both to a decent degree.

I really wonder how long it’ll take ppl to realize that S/D Ele is way more over the top atm than D/D-Ele…..

- Perma-Fury and mightstacks for the whole team (I can stack before game starts and right at the node and the team has like easily 30+ seconds of fury and almost 25 mightstacks that last for ages.
- 15k+ combos every ~10 seconds
- Better Sustain than D/D
- Less interruptable than D/D (on skills which would have longer cooldown when Powerblocked)
- To a big part ranged, which brings a whole mess of huge advantages
- Arcane Precision gives easily applied perma-weakness
- Almost the whole fire trait-line buffs power-dmg, which is more important on an S/D-Ele

Yes, in some MU’s, the D/D is better, for example against Thief. But S/D still pwns Thief easily and is way better in almost all other situations.

I’ve been saying it for a week that S/D is god-tier amongst all classes and builds and some ppl are starting to realize it’s true.

Suggested Changes:

- Persisting Flames only applies fury in combat.
- either one of the +10% when in fire or when attacking burning targets has got to go.
-Burning Fire: Changed amount of Might-stacks to 2

wanna fix a completely unusable skill and make it extremely interesting to use in PvP?

- Leash Range extened to unlimited (so pet won’t teleport to you when you are out of the 3k range)
- Pet is now contesting a capture-point if on the point.
- Pet doesn’t move away from the point to chase enemies if defending a point.

voilà!

adding those runes would do nothing for competetive builds, because almost every condition-based build and most of the other ones (on the ranger that is), will have to run runes of the traveler.

Even though it’s a pain, it’s still the best option to get to +25% movement speed or swiftness for rangers.

I also don’t like the runes at all, since a trapper will often have to guard nodes, because thats one thing he’s good at and stealth really is more counterproductive.

Aloha, i’ve recently been toying around with tons of different Condition-based ranger builds and I always come across the same problems that make up the difference between good builds and competetive PvP-ready builds. Almost all condition, or semi-condition-based builds, like D/D-Ele and Engi work, because they don’t have those Problems, or to a much smaller degree.

Movement-Speed

When I try and make a decent build, I always need to make sure to either get to swiftness or +25% movement-speed. Especially in the current meta with less AoE-Swiftness (no shoutbow) and paired with the fact, that I see roaming (defensive) as where Ranger probably fits best, it’s absolutely important.
So the Ranger has several ways to get to more movement-speed, unfortunately, the only viable one is the traveler-rune.
The Signet is unusable, because you need all the utility-slots badly and it has a rather bad activated effect.
The Swiftness on Shouts I kinda like, but it forces you into a traitline you don’t really want to go in in most builds. Also, it takes away from benefits you’d get by using other heal-skills, for which you already have stuff traited (the trp-trait or the survival skill trait).
Travelers Rune bring with them another big Problem: You don’t get any additional stats from runes, which makes it almost impossible to run cele-amu, which always leaves you with the squishy rabid-amu, or the Settlers amu, which makes shortbow unusable, because it does no condi-dmg without earth/torment sigils and heavy precision. It also denies you of the option to get a bit of healing power from the runes, which I’d love to have on rabid-amu builds.
The warhorn is obviously a non-issue on condition-builds.

Solutions:
- Make a condition-based and healing power-based Runes with Movement-Speed.
- Make the Sigil more useful,
- Make a Pet that has a swiftness shout that you can activate out of combat.
- Give the Ranger a +25% movement-trait, preferably not in beastmastery or marksmanship.

Shortbow has too low condition-damage

Almost all weapon-sets that are condition-based have much higher DPS-output than the shortbow, which has almost nothing. 3-5 are almost entirely non-condition, 1 is very situational and position-based and 2 is basically melee. So without mass precision and sigils, the Shortbow just does no DMG. This is a big problem, since the other semi-condition-based ranged weapon, the Axe, also doesn’t do much condition-dmg on range that is somewhat spammable while w8ing for CD’s.

Solution:
Make shortbow autoattack do 3 s bleeding per default and add +20% duration when hitting from behind or the side. This still really isn’t much at all….

Cele-Amu not viable, but it needs to be

Guess what, almost all condition/semi-condition based builds use cele-runes, for several reasons:
Condition-based builds need to have rather high survivability, because they don’t deal DMG as quickly as power-based builds. Also, like the Ele, Ranger has a rather low HP-pool. Well, not AS bad as the ele, but it’s noticeable. Also, mixed DMG isn’t as bad against strong condi-cleanse and many cele-based builds bolster their DPS they lack with the cele with runes/mightstacking.
Ranger can’t do mightstacking too easily (on most condition-builds, the Pet with Mighty roar is the only option and maybe 1 battle-rune can be squeezed in – way too less) and even more important is, that he has to use travelers runes, which makes the condition-damage just way too low.

Solutions
To be very precise, the thing I miss the most from the Cele-amu is a bit of healing-power, just to make rabid-amu a bit more sustainable, so either ANet could directly address healing power
1) Implement a trait which gives a bit of healing power. Together with the possibility to add whatever runes you want, for example ones with healing power (if you have movement-speed-options besides travelers runes) could be enough.

or address the problem by making the cele-rune more viable:

2) Give Ranger some better mightstacking-options, for example make survival-skills give might when traited instead of fury.
3) Also, a rune with some passive mightstacking on getting hit (like hoelbrak or pirate) and some increased might-duration that is condition-based, would help out a lot.

What do you guys think? Did you come across the same problems?

jportell.2197:

StickerHappy.8052:

I think most of the bad mesmers pre patch are now being carried by traits post patch.

Prismatic Understanding. I guarantee if this trait gets nerfed or adjusted in someway the FOTM mesmers will disappear. All of these “super good pro mesmers” are running this garbage trait and getting carried by it.

PU is very strong indeed and 1v1’ing a Mes with PU becomes basically a build-war:

If you run good AoE-cleave and Condi-DMG, like a D/D-Ele, Necro, Engi, Trapper, you’re fine, if not, you’re probably gonna loose.

I really like the long duration on the Elite though, since it makes it at least somewhat possible not to run a D/P-thief in a teamcomp, because stealth with long durations is sooo kitten important.

I actually think they should keep the durations long, maybe even buff them on the elite, but change the elite to: If you take dmg, you are revealed.

Also, many hotjoiners don’t run a portal, which is almost never the case in organized teams; so in hotjoin, they get both the daze-mantra and the additional cloak-utility, which makes them much stronger in 1v1’s in hotjoins.

Easy fix for all the mesmer-problems are IMHO:

Mass Invis: Duration increased to 8 seconds, (16 with PU), added: If you take any dmg (even ticking conditions), you are revealed.

Confounding Suggestions; Only Stuns when you interrupt a spell. (no easy guaranteed stuns anymore, which is the biggest problem of the burst from the mesmer)

cuz ppl are bad and think pewpew-ranger is easy…. but it’s only easy if played against bad players. ^^’

Don’t mind those ppl, they literaly whine about everything.

Mesmer: Burst isn’t too high, it’s the guaranteed stun every 5 seconds. Easy fix:

change “Confounding Suggestions” so that the daze only is a stun when you interrupt sth.

Also, Prismatic Understanding needs to be toned down. IMHO, not necessarily in duration, since I think that decent AoE-Stealth for openers needs to be on some other classes than the thief (or D/P thief to be exact).

Ele: I really don’t care about the burn-dmg…. maybe make the durations a bit longer but tone down the DMG, so it’s at least a bit easier to cleanse…. I don’t run a D/D-Ele anyways and I never really felt burning to be too strong.

Ranger: One of the IMHO biggest problems with the ranger is that you basically have to use travelers runes. Give them a decent trait with +25% movement speed. Being able to run other runes than traveler opens up a ton of new builds.

Also, The Shortbow could really use a buff, since it does almost no DMG on builds that don’t run heavy precision and earth/torment-sigils. Make the normal auto-attack deal the bleeding it does now and make it a +20% in duration if hit from the side or from behind.

Taunt could also use some sort of buff, since the huge dmg on the pets makes them die almost instantly in teamfights. Add the conditions that they draw to them from you and even the tankiest pets die very very fast. I’d also make the radius a tiny bit bigger and add "for each enemy player taunted, your pet receives 20% less dmg for the duration of the taunt.

War: Rampage should probably be toned down a bit, either less DMG or less tanky.

I got no big problems with the other classes right now. :P

well, in stronghold, tornado is extremely useful, because of the reapplied stability for channeling the mist essence.

In conquest, I do think it’s definitely way less useful than the other transformations, but I like it for quick decaps on certain maps/build comps, but I’m using it very very rarely. One of the biggest issues is, that on many points, ppl can just position them in a way, that you’ll just push them towards an object rather than off the point, so on many maps, you can’t even decap properly with it.

I’d really like to see a buff to it, but not as big as you proposed, I think double vita/thoughness could be enough for starters. :P

I’d also like to see the buff for the engineer Elite-Elexir, cuz they pretty much either get rampage and are happy, or they get tornado and probably hope out of it again right away. :P

Curunen.8729:

Eh, what “condi meta”?

The only condi builds that remotely compete with power are the insane burning eles/guards.

Otherwise power is still top.

Truth.

In competetive PvP, there are rather fewer condi-based builds than before, except that D/D-Eles are on the rise again.

Engis are used less often and when they are used, they often don’t have the added burning or even use soldier-runes and not cele.

Also, we don’t really see Shoutbow anymore, which did a lot of burning-dmg.

Yes, some Necro/Ranger builds that are condition-based could be somewhat viable, but they are still not seen that often.

Besides, almost every class got more condi-removal, so I really don’t see why any1 should complain abaout a condi-meta.

I think Trapper is pretty viable (I prefer the Settlers amu version with axe/dagger and sword/torch). It’s both strong in teamfights and as a node-defender/defensive roamer.

Even PR works, since not that many ppl use the abundantly available projectile- absorbs/reflects and you can go zerker-amu and still be pretty survivable and hard to burst down. It’s still pretty easy to switch a trait (on mesmer for example) which makes PR-ranger almost useless and also is decent against trapper, cuz he uses many projectiles. Or you can switch a rune, or maybe a class and the ranger is pretty much hard-countered. I don’t really like that dynamic. Just make some Ranger-skills which are obviously projectiles to just be designated as a non-projectile. :P

I’m only kinda sad that the taunt isn’t as good as I thougt it would be, since it is pretty fun and skill-intensive (you really need to control your pet well to use it effectively).

Some of the problems I encountered when coming up with decent builds:

1) it’s pretty hard to get swiftness or +25% movement-speed and often I have to take travelers runes: There isn’t enough space for the signet, there is no trait (except the swiftness on shouts, which I couldn’t really incorporate into a decent build) and the traveler-runes are not optimal for most builds.
2) Shortbow is still unusable if you don’t use 2 sigils with on-crit effects (which are mediocre compared to other sigils), which means it’s unusable for settlers amu, just because it does no dmg…. They really need to rework the first skill of this weapon.
3) health-pool is pretty low, which forces you into very defensive traits/equipment.
4) Not enough mightstacking possibilities, combine this with the need for the travelers runes and no cele-builds are too likely, although there are enough sustainy traits and skills. I think it’s okay that not every class has a cele-build though, just wanted to mention it anyways. ^^’
5) A lot of traits that buff up your pets limit which pets you can choose heavily, if you wanna take full advantage of it. Take for example pet’s prowess: So much better on high-precision pets, but try to use taunt and empathic bond using 2 birds – they’ll die in an instant, especially in teamfights.
6) One of the biggest issues with traits is that sharpened edges is on the same trait-level as trappers expertise, I think it should be a minor trait you get automatically or be combined with hidden barbs.

I really like the trapper-ranger though, since the traps open up a lot of strategic possibilities.

Condis are no problem, that’s why already after the big condi-hype, condition-builds in competetive play get fewer and fewer and players often choose to skill less condi-removal because of it (Engis are taking wrench instead of E-Gun, Mesmers go illusions/chaos instead of inspiration, Thief’s go crit strikes instead of shadow arts etc.

Condis got buffed and some builds using conditions got buffed as well, but full condition with rabid amu/settlers amu or sth. like that are still pretty rare….

clearly very representative, very well done research!

And no, I actually feel it’s pretty diverse in terms of builds and classes and I didn’t notice any class being played too often, other than the ones from the daylies.

Well yes, as stated in like 5 other threads of this nature, DPS is higher – but so are the defensive capabilities:

- Tons of very strong defensive options like stone heart, weakening shroud, unholy martyr, bunker down etc. – every class has tons of very viable defensive traits.
- Almost every class has very strong rez-traits now.
- There are also tons of new skills to make rezzing easier, like the AoE-Moa of the engi, the new guardian-shout, mesmer with the elite-glamour+resistance on it etc.
- There are actually decent counter to stealth-openers now, which are the most difficult to deal with bursts, like the counter-stealth of the engi, ranger traps, necro with the marks (necro is probably more viable now, so the counter can actually be used)

phew, those are not easily answered questions and depend heavily on the situation. I will keep it very simply for starters:

1) Will you be there soon enough and will you win the fight if you are there? if yes, then go. (look at the HP-bars and minimap who is in downed-state or at low health as a clue or communicate with the team)

2) There are classes that are harder to stomp, even with stability (ele, mesmer, thief) so if the enemy is one of those and your teammate isn’t, don’t go for the stomp and vice-versa. It also depends on the cleave of the opponent: is there tons of AoE and will you just die as well when trying to rez? Then don’t try to rez

3) You should always have the option to get to the point soon enough to not get decapped (or one teammember at least), so if you don’t know exactly where all the enemies are, sm1 should stay in range or leave a portal.

4) Yes, when you have a favourable position, for example on niflhel when the enemies are coming through the narrow pass and you can spam AoE or on Khylo, where you can spam stuff from above. But keep Point 3 in mind and don’t get decapped by sm1 sneaking by. Also, if you have fever nodes capped or are on equal nodes, you should maybe avoid those risks if you’re not that experienced.

5) Generally, you target the easy to kill things first. This doesn’t necessarily mean low HP/Armor classes, since for example Thief/Mesmer have good mobility/stealth and can get away if you don’t have a decent stun/burst-combo. It heavily depends on the builds of the classes, so you should let sm1 more experienced do the targetting until you get the hang of it (you can just ask in chat if sm1 could do the targetting, if you have decent ppl on the team, that shouldn’t be a prob).

6) I like temple the best atm: The Map is big, the secondary objectives are impactful and the nodes are fairly open and not as cramped as for example niflhel mid.

Darknicrofia.2604:

98% of those stats are pulled 100% out of your behind.

hahaha, nice! And obviously true!

Engis are pretty amazing still and until the huge bug is fixed, those “statistics” mean nothing.

Ranger is also definitely more viable than before and some builds are IMHO even worthy to be played on a high competetive level.

The patch is still fairly new, no meta has established yet, several builds probably haven’t seen the light of day etc. – totally useless to loose your head over it just yet.

just counter rampage with whirlwind or plague-form or interrupt the cast. YOu could also use the blinding Well or the one that corrupts boons. It’s also possible to easily get perma-weakness on the war with either a Necro or an S/D-Ele. Oh and then theres also Moa.

And these are the ones just on top of my head

Amityel.5324:

PowerBottom.5796:

- Engi is OP cuz of a bug, otherwise it’s fine.
- Mesmer isn’t OP
- War isn’t OP, Rampage might be a bit strong, but there are more than enough counters.
- Guard OP? Haven’t heard that one before…. It’s definitely still viable, both as DPS and Support/Bunker, but not OP
- Condi-Necro is IMHO viable now in teamfights, cuz of unholy martyr, but not OP.

I play Ele myself and have played and tested out tons of builds on all the classes and the only thing I think is currently way over the top is S/D-Ele. D/X is too easy to interrupt (the crucial skills) and is melee only, which is a pretty big deal on many maps to be considered OP IMHO.

you didnt get my point obviously man you are saying almost the same I did just in other way

Maybe I didn’t put it right: The ones you mentioned are situationally OP and there are very clear-cut counters to it: S/D has no real counters and is excellent in every situation.

Ranged, very mobile, high sustained DPS, high burst, Stability like crazy, condi-removal, very tanky, hard to burst, very high sutstain, very high teamsupport, one of the hardest classes to interrupt properly, a good S/D Ele won’t simply eat corrupt boons either but blind you/CC and burst you down etc.
No other build currently comes close IMHO….. but thats just me. ^^’

And yes, I main Ele and I main S/D and I wanted S/D to become viable again for a long time, cuz it’s so much fun to play – but I don’t like playing an OP class/build either. :P

- Engi is OP cuz of a bug, otherwise it’s fine.
- Mesmer isn’t OP
- War isn’t OP, Rampage might be a bit strong, but there are more than enough counters.
- Guard OP? Haven’t heard that one before…. It’s definitely still viable, both as DPS and Support/Bunker, but not OP
- Condi-Necro is IMHO viable now in teamfights, cuz of unholy martyr, but not OP.

I play Ele myself and have played and tested out tons of builds on all the classes and the only thing I think is currently way over the top is S/D-Ele. D/X is too easy to interrupt (the crucial skills) and is melee only, which is a pretty big deal on many maps to be considered OP IMHO.

@Jekkt: Yeah, I don’t like the blind on burn either: it’s just dumb, no skill involved most of the times…..

I absolutely love stone-heart though, because you obviously want to switch through the attunements to get the buffs, but once you’re out of earth you might get spiked, so it’s a constant tension and you really have to keep positioning, CD’s of other players etc. in mind to use it properly: An example of an IMHO very fun and skill-intensive trait! GJ ANet! We need more of those and less of dumb procs. :P

haha and you probably haven’t met an S/D-Ele yet. :P

I’ve tested out tons of builds with the Ele, but S/D is just sick….. S/D was IMHO always the better weapon (ranged, more burst, harder to get interrupted, which is getting more important now, tankier…. the only thing it’s worse at is with condi-dmg and cleave, if the fire-combos are down)

But now, with higher base-power and perma-fury on almost every Ele build possible (Arcane Fury, Elemental Contingency, Persisting Flames, Pack runes if it fits the team), I absolutely love S/D. Also, almost every class got better condi-removal, so if you’re having problems with burning-stacks, you’re either running a wrong build or are at the wrong Situation. :P

Also, there are some traits that seem crappy, but are insane on S/D, like Arcane Precision: With the perma fury, I can put perma-weakness on a target.

S/D also works better with the tankier earth/water/arcane-build, cuz you can actually stay out of earth longer without missing out on crucial skills, so you can pop stone-heart easier at the right moment.

I feel like I’m tankier than the tankiest S/D-build before the big patch and I burst about as hard as if I’m running a Zerker Amu – it’s pretty insane actually.

No clue why everyone runs D/D: it definitely is strong and the fire trait-line fits a bit better on main-Dagger, but IMHO, S/D is way better in teamfights and as a more tanky option.

*Edit: I’m not sure yet if a nerf is needed, since Interrupts got way better and are definitely not properly used yet (and they hurt Staff and maindagger immensely), also, mightstacking is still very very useful and classes with good Boonremoval got stronger.

Flumek.9043:

Lich OP , rampage oki.

Lich has so many available counters that everyone who says it’s OP is either uninformed or underprepared….

I’ve brought this topic up in multiple threads/posts and there could be some pretty easy fixes to make the game easier to spectate, but there should also be major overhauls of some things:

Easy fixes:

- Stronger teamcolors on outfits and on the minimap.
- Only finishers are the standard ones that don’t obscure the fight for multiple seconds
- no backpacks/wings and show the chars in the PvP-mode, where they are all big enough size with outfit specific to the class.

Bigger changes:
- Go over every skill/trait-effects and just cut everything in terms of particle effects that isn’t absolutely necessary to see what the skill does and which skill was used. There are tons of effects that just clutter everything up and that do more in terms of making the game confusing rather than helping spectators and players to identify whats happening.

I really love the game atm, needs a bit of balancing, but thats okay.

Many classes got some pretty cool traits that make them more skill-intensive and fun to play, like Powerblock, Quick Draw, Taunt, Stone Heart, Kinetic Charge and so on.

I really get GW1-nostalgia-feelings in Teamfights when playing Powerblock Mesmer now – which is amazing. ^^

thief is currently only played cuz of stealth openers IMHO…. I anticipated it being very strong, but after testing a bit and playing against thiefs and seeing/playing the other classes, thief really isn’t that good atm.

I never was a thief player (my least played class), but I played some S/D-thief, since I found the build really interesting – but S/D is really really bad now.

- no reliable stealth, which means no condi-removal, since almost all of it is tied to stealth. Also no stealth-openers, since Refuge alone isn’t enough and the other two utilities pretty much need to be stunbreakers.
- Acrobatics is simply extremely underpowered…. you can literally buff most of the traits for double value for them to be good enough for competetive play. :P
- Most classes got interesting new traits that opened up new playstyles, but thief (or rather D/P-Thief) just got easier and dumber with every patch, this one being the hight of it all. What a shame – it used to be a pretty hard to play class, now you just F1 and spam 1’s and 2’s… -.-°

Here are my Ideas to make S/D Thief interesting to play and viable:

Deadly Arts is fine, although panic strike could be more interesting, sth. like: get a buff when striking a foe from behind or the side that has under 50% HP which makes you next skill that costs initiative inflict immobilize (if it hits, if not, the buff is gone, but you can hit again from the side/back to get the buff again until 1 hits, which is when the 20s ICD kicks in).

Acrobatics
Minor Traits: combine the swiftness/vigor on evade and make pain response another Minor.
Guarded Initiation: rly? what is this supposed to be? I don’t get it at all…. Just make it that you gain 3s of resistance…. Swindlers and hard to catch are fine I guess.
Don’t Stop: Well….. I kinda like the not being able to get immobilized, but the other two traits are also really necessary,,,, I’d again combine upper hand and Don’t stop and name it…. Don’t stop!

TLDR The Traits (in Acrobatics) are actually kinda interesting and could be fun to use und require skill, but they just need to combine some of them for S/D to be viable: Too much utility is scattered over too many traits.

disagreed as well…. yes, dps is higher, but so are the defensive capabilities, we just see them played much less in random pvp…..

Also, the glass-cannons won’t run zerker in competetive pvp either, it’s just another random-groups thing: If ppl actually play together, they can just dish out a few autos at the same time and the zerkers will burn trough all their CD’s, deal no dmg cuz they have to run/evade and then die.

It’s similar with conditions: Just add a shoutbow/shoutguard/ele to your team with good cleanse and time the cleanses right (yay – AoE-cleanses now might even have to be timed other than mindlessly spammed :P) and condis will be fine as well, most likely.

I really really like the current patch, but yes, hotjoin-heroes will certainly have sth. to whine about for quite a while – le’ts hope they don’t ruin it for everyone else, like so often.

Apoc.8794:

PowerBottom.5796:

I’ve tested out tons of builds with the Ranger and what I’ve noticed so far is:

- Power-Ranger as a glasscannon is IMHO much weaker than Mesmer, S/F-Ele, Thief etc. both in teamfights and 1v1’s. —> condi-ranger is where it’s at (finally again yay! ^^)

- In terms of conditions, you probably won’t get around traps, because they dish out insane amounts of damage, have huge AoE’s, are unblockable, pulse several times (which makes it harder to remove the conditions) and they offer things not every other class can do (pre-trapping points before fights start).

- most likely, you’ll need rabid amu, since the ranger doesn’t really benefit from power when going for conditions and it’s not that easy to stack up might to get to the high condi-dmg numbers you need. This will make you rather light in the hp-department, so you’ll need plenty of condi-removal.

this is the build I’m currently using (it’ll probably change over the next few days. ^^’)

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-JV-Fk;1Fky-t2JEF-0;9-6A;1Z_b;0257137056;4KF37U;1jzyvjzyv2Z

Can I start by saying your name is fantastic.

Thx, my Pets are named PowerBottom and PowerTop…. unfortunately, the brown bear is the Top. :P

I’m really struggling with the low HP-pool on this build, since conditions are so strong now (at least in random-Groups).
have to see how strong conditions really are in a team with maybe Shoutwar, Shoutguard and Ele with mass-cleanses.

I’ve tested out tons of builds with the Ranger and what I’ve noticed so far is:

- Power-Ranger as a glasscannon is IMHO much weaker than Mesmer, S/F-Ele, Thief etc. both in teamfights and 1v1’s. —> condi-ranger is where it’s at (finally again yay! ^^)

- In terms of conditions, you probably won’t get around traps, because they dish out insane amounts of damage, have huge AoE’s, are unblockable, pulse several times (which makes it harder to remove the conditions) and they offer things not every other class can do (pre-trapping points before fights start).

- most likely, you’ll need rabid amu, since the ranger doesn’t really benefit from power when going for conditions and it’s not that easy to stack up might to get to the high condi-dmg numbers you need. This will make you rather light in the hp-department, so you’ll need plenty of condi-removal.

this is the build I’m currently using (it’ll probably change over the next few days. ^^’)

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-JV-Fk;1Fky-t2JEF-0;9-6A;1Z_b;0257137056;4KF37U;1jzyvjzyv2Z

the dps is high atm, cuz everyone is running full DMG…. The meta will even out, especially in competetive play, cuz there are very strong defensive options as well (Shoutguard with clerics, Shoutbow, Water/Arcane/Earth-Ele etc.)

Grimreaper.5370:

Whats anouther 3 or 4k hp gonna matter anyway if you get burned for 4 to 6k? Its yolo time boys

really? No1 ever played ANY full-condi-builds and now because it’s possible (however very unlikely) to stack one condi to high amounts of dps, it’ll suddenly be condi all over the place….

even though:

- Shoutbow will still very likely be extremely strong – tons of condi-removal
- almost every class got their condi-removal buffed and even builds that previously had no, or very little, access to condi-removal, now get tons of it.
- ShoutGuard with tons of AoE-cleanse looks strong, as well as Inspire-Mesmer with AoE-Cleanse, Staff-Ele and Ele in general.

Yes, in 1v1 situations or 2v1 it’ll be better and it’ll even be better than before in teamfights, but it’ll nowhere near be that huge as ppl make it out to be.

Even if it’s gonna be very very strong (which i doubt, I think it’ll be just fine), there are a bazillion counters to condition-builds…..

are those spirit shards somehow convertable to gold? ^^’

laquito.5269:

My point still stands. Neither thief nor Guard bersi builds will become meta as they share the same low HP pool. No offense, but the word meta already implies that certain team compositions or builds will always be (depending on the current meta) more viable than others. This still doesn’t mean that all of the non meta builds are underpowered, they’re just less desireable/optimal

Your reasoning pretty much sounds like you’re kittened that glass ele won’t be viable/meta (for various reasons). But so will guard and thief, so you either just play bersi ele regardless of viability, or you accept the fact and use another amulet. Pretty selfish to demand a buff exclusively to Ele’s so that they can go glass instead of promoting a base health pool change that benefits any of these classes.

Don’t get me wrong, I love playing my S/F fresh air in tpvp and I’ll definitely try it with zerker amulet, which is a substantial buff to the already insane damage, but 2k more HP in top of that? Come on be realistic.

Edit: Ele already have build variety with semi viable to viable builds, most of them just don’t play them because there are (slightly) better choices. Can’t say the same about Thief builds.

I actually think glass-ele will be very viable….. Marauder is glassy enough and it gives vita…. no problems here IMHO.

And yes, I doubt any1 will use the new Zerker competetively, absolutely non-dependent on the HP-pool, because you will just fall over in an instant.

I’m more looking towards the old valk (new crusader), clerics and maybe settlers-amu. These are the potential builds probably no1 will ever play simply because of a ridiculously low HP-pool.

laquito.5269:

Bersi has been the only ever viable amulet for thieves since release, so that can barely be a valid argument.

flawless logic….

1) Just because another class has no build diversity, doesn’t mean ANet shouldn’t try to create more build diversity, of course for all classes!
2) Ele has one very clear and fairly easily fixable problem that is diminishing the build diversity – it’s not that easy for thieves, because it doesn’t only hinge on one attribute being too low.
3) I’d be absolutely happy to see more build diversity in thieves, although it’s my least played class, I don’t see why ppl would argue against build diversity…. This has absolutely nothing to do with balance. Balance can come into play once those basic and extremely obvious things have been worked out. Or is it hard to understand that an ele with not even 11k HP AND a very low armor-pool won’t be viable with any amulet that doesn’t give vita?

Jekkt.6045:

the problem is that classes with a higher hp pool don’t have to care about this, they just go berserker and will deal a substantial higher amount of damage.

they should have just kept marauder as berserker and never put the new berserker in. or add jewels so that we can mix berserker with valkyre.

I don’t think the HP-pool will be any problem for the current cele and zerker-based builds. All the current zerker-builds will probably use marauder instead of zerker.

The problem is that in the current meta and after the patch even more, cele will be forced to run either cele or marauder (which is the new zerker).

So I really don’t understand why so many obvious non-ele players that probably haven’t even read my post fully are complaining about my post (“eles whining again….” etc.) since they are probably also the ones that complain about the cele/zerker-meta and about cele-eles.

But cele and zerker are literally the only amus the ele can use competetively, because of the low HP-pool and no good access to vitality other than through runes.

I never say “zerk”, only “zerker”
so Marauder will be “rauder”…..

I guess we could call it “rudy”

Rudy-Ranger…. that has a certain ring to it. :P

so, it doesn’t reflect the skill, nothing new, it’s still an absolutely basic stat that shouldn’t every be deleted…..

MyPuppy.8970:

That would buff the ele, i’m not sure it’s in the balance teams policy. Maybe they could remove the chill and condition damage from the useless rune of the elementalist and put vitality and healing power instead, since we don’t have that many chills anyways.

Something like that maybe?
(1): +25 Power
(2): +35Vitality
(3): +50 Power
(4): +65 Vitality
(5): +100 Power
(6): +20% Burning Duration; +20% healing effectiveness.

Or maybe change that altruistic water minor grandmaster trait…

It’s not a buff to any existing build, since no Zerker (Marauder) nor Cele-based Ele would ever take a vitality-based rune nor skill a trait that gives vitality.

thats the whole point I’m trying to make: They could easily create more build-diversity without affecting any of the existing builds.

have you even read my post@laquito?

I’m not whining, since I think ele will have tons of very viable builds, I’m just stating that a pretty easy fix could improve build-diversity, which is good for everyone (Ele’s have more builds to choose from and other classes won’t have to face the same builds over and over again).

It has nothing to do with buffs to existing builds as well, cuz neither a cele-ele nor a zerker-ele (or now marauder) needs more vitality.

@Toxsa: Marauder is pretty much the new Zerker.

Hi,

I just wanted to say that with the new attribute-point system, it’ll be even harder for low-healthpool classes to run any amu that doesn’t have vita on it, especially on the Ele.

I’m not necessarily saying that you should simply buff the HP-pool, but at least give the Ele some way of getting a bit more HP without using celestial or zerker-amu.

On the Guardian, there is at least a trait that gives additional HP, higher base-armor and very strong vitality-runes and it would help build-diversity a ton if there would be decent options for Ele as well.

And it would be easily doable without affecting the balance of currently strong builds like cele based ones.

For example

1) Add a decent vitality-based rune for Ele’s
2) Add a +Vitality-passive to one of the Water-traits and cut another bonus like;
- on soothing power, cut down the bonus for soothing mist but add 200 vita.
- I can’t see anyone using piercing shards ever, so you could change that up and add a bit of vita.

this one looks pretty promising to me:

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-Jo-g;2FVx-e2JEF-0;9V-0;1Y_b;0258157036;4INl6R;1jzyvjzyva0t

Also, with the added skill required from more impactful interrupts, taunt which will require more accurate pet-control and piercing arrows, which will require very strong positioning, any1 that says ranger is a no-skill class clearly is just jelly. ^^’

Okay, your math looks right if you add the base-stats, but didn’t ANet say that (out of the official patchnotes) "Each profession’s attributes will be updated to have half of their functionality be part of a specialization and half of their functionality will be a baseline for that profession. "

So, first of all, they buffed the base-stats up to 1000 (from like 930ish or sth?), which is already a number you didn’t add to the new stats (you just looked at the amu’s). Then, If I read the patch-notes correctly, there will be even more stat-gains outside the amu depending on your spec’s.

So I think you didn’t use all the numbers from the new stats and forgot to add the additional stats we get after the patch outside of the stats from the amu’s.

Lordrosicky.5813:

PowerBottom.5796:

they use 3-stat as baseline…. that’s where the old ~ 37% and the new ~30%. So compared to 3-stat, completely disregarding any other stats (which you should when talking about amulet-balance), the math is sound.

Old stats:

with 3-stat as baseline: 100/2232 = 0.0448
Now multiplied with cele-stats = 0.0448 * 3066 = ~137%

New Cele- Stats, again with 3-stat as basline: 100/3000 = 0.3 —> 0.3 * 3920 = ~130%

130<137
New<old
—> compared to what other amu’s provide, celestial amu got nerfed. QED!

But it didnt. This is the mistake anet made. They made your view and tried to nerf it using very weak reasoning. In reality celestial has a bigger stat advantage than before as I proved in the OP. Nothing else matters and is a technicality.

You proved nothing in the OP…. show me exactly how you calculated it and I’ll change my view if it’s accurate.

they use 3-stat as baseline…. that’s where the old ~ 37% and the new ~30% comes from. So with cele compared to 3-stat, completely disregarding any other stats (which you should when talking about amulet-balance), the math is sound.

Old stats:

with 3-stat as baseline: 100/2232 = 0.0448
Now multiplied with cele-stats = 0.0448 * 3066 = ~137%

New Cele- Stats, again with 3-stat as basline: 100/3000 = 0.3 —> 0.3 * 3920 = ~130%

130<137
New<old
—> compared to what other amu’s provide, celestial amu got nerfed. QED!

plz don’t listen to what OP says if he can’t even perform basic math.