Guild Wars 2

IMHO, all the classes got some pretty cool stuff and all of them seem viable, but I’m not yet sure about Ranger and Necro:

Ranger
Got some pretty sweet stuff like taunt, better interrupts and quickdraw, but depending on the meta, there will be tons of projectile reflect/absorption.

Necro
Simply too many changes to all the classes and Necro in particular and conditions in general to know without testing the builds out extensively.

But making a tierlist now is beyond stupid….

I agree that Mesmer looks incredibly strong (permastealth+boon’s every second ftw!).

Xillllix.3485:

D/D Elementalists will probably only be viable as total bunkers (basically nothing much will change), the damage is getting nerfed too much in air and the other classes buffs are so substantial.

I see great potential for more dps-oriented builds (still with tons of sustain and cele though) on DD-Eles (as well as S/D and S/F), for example:

DD Fire-Aura
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-o33;2B2-V0y4wMFZ0;9;402G;0246036146;9;90K

A good counter is a Pistol/Shield condition-based Engi. Terror-Necro is pretty decent as well.

Bad thing is, those builds are condition-based and the Engi can just go into teamfights, where he is really strong and conditions don’t matter, cuz of tons of AoE-Condi removal.

I like it, for several reasons:

- a little less dodging makes dodging more important and more skill is required to actually use dodges effectively.
- Energy-Sigils might become more important and we might see less Air/Fire…..
- There are tons of upcoming “on-dodge” or “on-evade” triggered traits, like the bomb with blast-finisher on Engi, reflect on Mesmer and so on, so a little less dodges might be needed to balance this out.
- Vigor is to important as it is and there are certain classes (in other words, there is the necro), that has no access to it. Nerfing vigor will balance this huge drawback of the necro out a bit.

mistsim.2748:

^that’s why pets are gonna be so valuable. cant reflect a bird with 25 stacks of might critting your face for 6k while taunting in an aoe.

true, and beastmastery gives them pretty decent stats as well.

I’d probably go for the birds with the bleed-F2: lowest CD on the F2 for weakness and blind and they benefit heavily from the added ferocity.

Still don’t know if the taunt is 15 ICD per Pet or in general and the size of the AoE of blind and taunt are very important as well.
We don’t exactly know how taunting works as well – do the taunted enemies just attack with their autoattack? Can they dodge while taunted or use other atk-skills? Pretty important stuff we don’t yet know.

But Ranger is surely gonna get more fun to play and require more skill: Interrupting is much stronger, so you actually want to use your daze/knockbacks for interrupting, pet-positioning is much more important for the taunts and AoE, quick-draw could be a very versatile trait that needs to be used on different skills depending on the situation (since ranger weapon-skills are very diverse in what they do: offense, defense, interrupts, movement).

I actually really look forward to try out those builds and they’ll probably be the first ones I’ll try (even though ranger is not my main).

Ele

Most likely they will be very viable. Both tanky/sustain builds similar to cele-staff and cele-DD look very strong and even Fresh Air could be viable, depending on the meta.

Ranger

I have some pretty nice builds in mind for ranger, with taunting/blinding/weakening pets, or quick-draw PowerRanger. Even tankier builds (maybe with shouts?) are a possibility.
But the biggest problem I see is that one of the best targets for the Ranger to target (mesmer), will now have tons of reflect. Depending on the Meta, there could simply be too much projectile reflect/absorption for the Ranger to be viable (Mesmer, Staff-Ele, S/F-Ele, Guardian with Shield), or at least the Ranger will be pretty easy to hardcounter.

Necro

No clue: There are simply too much changes to the class itself and all the other classes to know it without trying. But all the current Meta-classes look so freaking strong, that it probably will at best still be a niche-pick for top-teams.

I’ve been toying around with builds for hours and these are the ones I’m gonna try out first and that I think could be top-tier:

Mesmer
(Shatter/Stealth)
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-Rg-Fk;0VPV11y6JVV71;9;4STU;13-148237;9;1j2;45q

Ele
(Blinding-B)
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-o34;2B2-V0y4wMFZ0;9;402G;0038036046;9;1F-03F-030H

(Fresh Air)
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-o3d;2B2-V0v47NkY0;9;432G;0057036156;9;95i

Ranger
(QuickDraw PR)
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-Jo-g;2FVx-e2JEF-0;9k2;2YZ_;0258136157;9;1jzyvjzyv5j

Engi
(Cele-Rifle)
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-Z70;2cPVg0l6cQFx0;9;4ijk;0038248-57;9;90P

Guard
(Staffbunker)
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-BZ-3x;2k40J3NGV90;9;4nPQ;0036136148;9;1ZF18ZF183w

zapv.8051:

For the following reasons.

1) You didn’t increase build diversity by nerfing this. No one is going to use the 3 useless heal skills necros have until you buff them. The minion doesn’t stay alive, doesn’t attack, and doesn’t heal for that much (Good mms take CC). The well got a fat nerf to healing power scaling and has a massive cooldown requiring you to trait to make it remotely effective. Signet of Vampirism can be counterplayed far to easily by dodging the long animation, dodging/invuln when you get hit by it, or leaving the fight when you get hit by it. It’s passive also sucks in comparison to other classes signet heals. Basically, this has been necros only heal skill for a while, and it will remain this way

2) Consume conditions already had ample counterplay in the huge cast time, and relatively long CD. Now it has more because of the even longer CD, and the burst necros will be vulnerable to after using it. I don’t understand how you can nerf this, while withdraw, and shelter which have very little actual counterplay didn’t get touched.

3) The only builds that will take the CD reduction are PVE builds. Anyone who wants to have any impact on fights needs terror or POC in their build. The 8 aoe might stacks for 8 second, which should be for 15 seconds btw, and 27 second corrupt boon would be great, but without terror or POC you simply will never kill someone. It seems like you nerfed this skill just so people have to consider taking the corruption trait. People should want to take traits because they are good traits, not because they are necessary to make the classes skills useable.

Overall, this has been a very bad change, something that nerfs pretty much every necro build, and introduces no diversity. Along with that it is a direct nerf to a class that has sparsely been meta in pvp and didn’t need any nerfs, especially not to it’s very highly telegraphed heal skill.

PS: For real on blood is power, the might should be at least 12 seconds. It’s a way weaker version of empower, and no where close to the basic might stacking potential of eles and wars.

First of all, I too think that the nerf was completely unwarranted, especially since the reduced CD on corruption-skills will most likely not be picked over Terror or path of Corruption, 2 of the most important traits for many necro-builds.

1) I actually think the well and the signet might be the better choice now, can’t tell for sure though, since so many changes happened that I’d have to try it out first.

2) True. I don’t see the reason behind it either…. Also, Interrupts got way better and Necro is one of the few classes that actually use interruptable heal-skills. Mesmer will now at least have almost perma-stealth to cast it. ^^’

3) Also true; i think they need to put the trait for the reduction at adept-level. It also is very weird that some classes get the 33% reduced recast AND another bonus (like Ele get 33% reduced fire-skills AND 10% dmg while in fire – Necro gets 33% reduced CD and a drawback. Yes, you can send the condis to enemies, but it’s too situational to consider it a buff, especially on some skills like the plague-form.

Another point I wanted to add concerns the Signet: The Signet’s work as very strong passives on classes that also have other means of healing up, like Shoutow and Ele. We’d have to see how strong stuff like the life-leech, healing in shroud etc. will be. Another way would be to stack LF a bit easier; there are ways to do it, but will the strong builds have access to it? Also, does the signet-passive also heal in Shroud?

Nonetheless, I’m really excited to toy around with the Necro, since there are so many weird synergies I wanna try out that could maybe work. :P

no.

not every class needs to be a jack of all trades; it’s a teamgame!

jesus christ – this is getting embarrassing……

Lordrosicky.5813:

Hi people, Henry back again.

…….

You sure are busy…..

Cele-Rifle is only strong atm. because a build that has no condition-cleanse can both be in teamfights and roaming without any problems. In both parts, Nade.engi is very strong, but the lack of condition-removal should pose a problem in at least 1 of the areas.

- I can see how in teamfights, it’s acceptable to outsource certain things to other classes and in this case, the Shoutbow offers relieve of those conditions.
- but oh w8: Shoutbow is actually so strong and condition-only builds so bad, that no1 dares to play conditions anymore. ^^’

It’s not entirely a balance-thing either: Ppl don’t punish Engis enough for running no condi-cleanse.

Five-Gauge actually had an interesting flamethrower Engi build with insane burning-durations to punish engis: He’d just stack all the burning on them after they’ve used their turret and they were down. There are also some Engis that run pistol/shield, maybe even with bombs, exactly to punish engis that go for 1v1’s.

If Condis got buffed just a little, or shoutbow nerfed a little, so condition-builds wouldn’t just be completely useless in teamfights, Engi would be perfectly balanced, because their one and only real weakness would actually come into play again.

dire stats? Could sm1 explain?

Cuz I do think condition-builds lack good amu’s: Precision doesn’t do enough for them, cuz of extremely lackluster on-crit procs (both on sigils and on the traits) and settler is too tanky for the current meta…

just report and instablock those people.

Most of the time, it’s the bad players that spoil the experience for the others anyway, so just remove them from that experience.

yepp, Shoutbow is stupid and too strong, agreed, but basically all the rest you spewed out in your posts in this thread are absolute nonsense…. -.-°

jebro.6370:

Darmikau.9413:

If you’re still looking at the thread:

I think it’s worth a look at alternatives to ending the game. Either extending the time limit on matches by a couple minutes or, even better, instituting a GW1-type system where, at timeout, the lords come forward to fight each other. Lords could have buffs applied to them based on score so that the leading team goes into sudden death with an advantage, but the lagging team could still win if skilled enough.

Thats a really nice idea, Its nice seeing constructive feedback

Well yeah it is, thats probably why this Idea also has been brought up numerous times after the first beta-event….. Not that ANet listens to that sort of stuff….

Archaon.9524:

Laraley.7695:

Or what if they actually removed supplies completely? You would have doorbreakers spawn periodically, their damage reduced and vulnerable to guards. There, one pve element removed.

or what is they removed pve completely from pvp? just saying…because you know, it’s pvp…not freakin wvsw

oh right pve heroes are gonna rage cause no mobs and stuff to balance their lack of individual skill.

all hail pve….i suppose…

Again with this nonsensical “argument”.

Some of the best, most successful and fun competetive PvP-Games have “PvE-Elements” in them:

- Every Moba, arguably the most successful competetive game-mode ever.
- WC3, one of the most successful RTS-Games.
- GW1 PvP, which was absolutely amazing.

The Problem is (which is the case in Stronghold atm), when the PvE and running around takes so much time and effort, that the PvP-Element gets cut short. The PvE-Elements should be there to force and encourage PvP-interactions and not take focus away from them.

It’s all about how it’s done, not about the fact whether or not there are PvE-Elements.

Just imagine that sm1 (or more than 1 in a 5-man team) would have to walk from mid to base in a Moba to spawn the lane-minions: It would completely destroy the game-mode.

Ristillath.6745:

PowerBottom.5796:

4) Players should be able to do small amounts of DMG to the door, maybe comparable to what Archers do.

No!

Why?
A.: How interesting would it be to hit a gate for X sec/min?

I’m talking about maybe 10% of the DPS you do to the gates on forefire: As an incentive for defending players to also attack the players and not only the DB’s and to leave the option for some crazy all-in rushes. No1 would actually just stand there and DMG the doors because it would take way too long.
But I’m not set on this one, as long as archers/DB’s spawn in certain intervals.

changes for next beta-event:

1) Archers deal twice the amount of DMG to players
2) Increased HP and thoughness for all Guards outside the Lord-Room by 20% each
3) 2 Archers and 1 Doorbreaker will now spawn every minute by default.
4) decreased channeling time at the supply by 50%
5) Lord won’t attack and get revealed from stealth while downed
6) Players are able to do a small amount of DMG to the doors now (equal to 10% of the DMG they do to doors on Foefire)
7) Guards attack DB’s at first priority, even when aggroed by players
8) Introducing defensive Archers: Spawned by supply only (not per default like the offensive ones), which will create an Archer on your defensive lane, spawning on the outer most unopened door, or the Lordroom if all doors are down.

In the current state of the game-mode (and after 80+ played games during both betas) I probably wouldn’t even play it for a week. It just doesn’t work the way it is now:

1) Supply-running is boring
2) Guards way too weak
3) Archers useless
4) theres no incentive to actually fight players besides the mist-essence spawns (which I really like): All you need to really do is kill the NPC’s or run supply or the game won’t move forward.

There’s tons of fixes for that:

1) Spawn a certain amount of DB’s and Archers every minute per default. You could still gather supply, but it wouldn’t be necessary for the game to move forward.
2+3) Make guards and Archers better….. -.-°
4) Players should be able to do small amounts of DMG to the door, maybe comparable to what Archers do.

Theres too much running/channeling/pve’ing going on.

I think a certain amount of DB’s and Archers should spawn by default; like 2 archers 2 DB’s every minute. Then the focus could be more on the 2 lanes and there would be more teamfighting rather than running around. It would also leave the possibility to go for strong pushes when the opportunity presents itself.

Yepp, I was very disappointed by that too….. I mean, at least on the Archers (and Guards) being too weak, the whole community seemed to fully agree.

I heard no1 being outraged about too few crates for LoS-ing or disapointed by the Lord not cheering though.

And yes; if they leave the game-mode like this, I would be hugely disappointed and I probably wouldn’t buy the expansion.

Just had an even better Idea for more PvP, less running and still a lot of options:

- Make some DB’s and Archers spawn per default; Supply gathered would only increase that number, but you wouldn’t have to do it.

This way, the focus could be spread out between offense and defense-lane and teams would have the option to go for big pushes.

With only 5 players, I think it would be good to try and keep the main-focus on 2 points and have some other objectives. If you force ppl to spread out between 3 important points (middle and both lanes), it’ll be spread to thin IMHO….

I currently think that the PvE or just running from A to B is indeed way too high…(between both betas, I have about 80+ SH-games and I theorycrafted a ton about the mode)

Offense is just a sustainy char that kills the NPC’s while staying alive against the enemies defending. I don’t ever need to attack a player in offense.

On defense, you either kill the DB’s, or you have very high dps-classes that just spam stuff onto the Cele-Rifle or Cele-Staff-Ele while he kills the NPC’s…. That’s not real PvP either.

Here’s what I really like: The really cool part for me is always the mist-essence spawns, I think this aspect of the Map is amazing and works perfectly. I also like the dynamic of the spawning NPC that can often force big teamfights with neat interactions like trying to slow the NPC don before he reaches the doors, deciding whether to DMG him or maybe take out a glassy DPS-dealer of the opposing team first etc.

I also really like the Lord-Room and that the lord goes into down-state (stealthing him doesn’t really seem to work though, as he keeps attacking or sth.)

here’s what doesn’t work for me as of yet though:
The supply-running is boring and too less teamfights happen in the area of the supplies.

-> I really like the Idea of a “Node” in the middle: as long as you have sm1 standing in it, you’ll spawn DB’s and archers at a certain rate. You don’t need to cap it and both teams will get the benefit, as long as at least 1 is standing there. No boring running and more PvP!
Just make the node big enough and a bit more open than it is now.

So, are archers still useless then?

Kinda looks like they pointed all changes towards “faster game-mode” instead of “better game-mode”…..

So, you mean gain sth. within the gamemode that resets after the game ends right? Not sth. like PvP-Gear you have to grind and carry from one game to the next?

I’d still say a clear “no” to both though. Even for a game that was built up from the ground with level- and Item-progression during a game, it brings a ton of negative effects:

- Snowball
- Boring Grind-phase where no1 actually fights could be a challenge to avoid
- harder for ppl to undertand how to play the mode and lots more stuff to learn and it’s harder for spectators to understand whats happening.

Now add this to the fact that GW2 is NOT built from the ground up for that and it’ll lead to a disaster.

Lupanic.6502:

please no. Reduce the number of onCrit procs. The last thing Guild Wars needs is more and more powerful sigil and runes

Condition-based on crit-procs are fundamentally different from Power-based ones:

1) With Power, the Crit itself is already amazing, cuz it deals more DMG. With condition-DMG, the only benefit you get from Precision are the procs.
2) Power- based procs can often crit themselves, which is impossible for condition-based ones.
3) Air/Fire and Sigils like that are unavoidable: you cannot dodge them or otherwhise do sth. against it: you don’t know when they’re gonna hit and they are effective immediately. With Condition-based ones, they have an effect over time and you can even cleanse it.

But I guess it’s possible, or even better, to make precision useful in another way for condition-based builds:

- Make it possible for conditions to crit per proc. (kinda hard, cuz how do you calculate the additional DPS, also with Ferocity?)
- Make it possible for conditions to crit on application for added duration. (would IMHO be a bit too random)
- Make smarter Amu’s for pure condition-based classes (for example a version of Settlers with less thoughness and more condi-dps)
- Give each classes themselves better condition-based on-crit procs (would most likely be easiest to balance and maybe the smartest choice).

I have to say that when looking at the new specializations, ANet somewhat already did the last option, I still don’t know if precision will be nearly as useful as on Power-based builds.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Personally I feel that every class should not have a hardcounter/hardcounters.

I feel that any two class when faced off 1vs1, equally skilled opponents should have an equal chance to win one another, depending on build and skills.

Well, that’s where I would have to strongly disagree with you. To a certain point, it’s perfectly fine that some builds counter others, because this isn’t a 1v1-game, but a teamgame. It’s crucial for a team to rotate correctly and send the right builds against builds so they have an advantage. if every build would be equal to all others in a 1v1, rotations would only be about “how many do we send where?” and not “how many and who exactly do we send where?” This would take out a lot of strategic depth in the game.

It’s also the job of a team to know which build counters which and decide if they wanna go for a safer choice (that hasn’t as many hardcounters) or with the riskier one, that might be better against many builds, but would get hardcountered more easily.

Your logic has one fundamental flaw that newer players make: Not every builds is supposed to win in every situation. And instead of whining because you put yourself in those situations, you should avoid them, while actively searching for favourable situations.

Also, because it’s a teamgame, there is supposed to be a certain synergie between classes: Classes could help each other out in aspects where one class is weak (look at Shoutbow+Cele-Rifle, or shoutbow+anything that doesn’t have strong condi-removal), or they could make their strenghts even more impactful. If every class could do everything, it would once again take out a lot of depth in coming up with a sound teamcomposition and good rotations.

This is mostly a logic shared by ppl that are more used to Arena-type gamemodes: no1 that ever played GW1 competetively would complain about things like that.

Well, I don’t think that those conditions “killed” conditions, you even said yourself that those conditions are still heavily used. Besides, as said above, they will stack in intensity, which will solve some of the Problem if you use your removal smartly.

What really killed conditions are IMHO these Problems:

- Shoutbow (and other AoE-Condi-removal): In a Teamfight, you basically need 1 Shoutbow to take pure condition-builds out of the equation: they won’t ever do enough dps. Add in the occasional Staff-Ele or even D/D and condition-only builds are fudged.
IMHO, there is room for condition-only builds, mostly to counter the huge amount of Cele-Rifle’s being played that often go for 1v1’s. But it’s still really tricky, cuz good rotations would again make condi-only basically useless.

- The Amu’s/Sigils are just total crap: Look at the rabid-amu for example: Condi-DMG is nice of course and thoughness as well, but precision? Power gets double-dmg on crit and tons of insanely good procs (air/fire). Condition builds get maybe 1 trait with a ridiculously low bleed on crit and at best mediocre sigils (most prefer to use doom, geomancy etc. anyways, even when going with enough precision).

- The current Meta runs tons of Cele and Zerker: both have a high HP-pool and much more burst-dmg and/or sustain to outsustain a condition-only build, if they don’t run almost no condi-removal, like a Cele-Rifle for example.

Solution:

- Tone down stupid spammable AoE-Cleanse like wahrorn and soldier-runes.
- Give Condi-builds better on-crit procs and I mean much better: You can double the durations/stacks on it and I think it might still be too low. Yes, I don’t like random procs either, but at least they are nowhere near as bad as Air/Fire, because they don’t deal the DPS instantly and you have the possibility to cleanse them.

Jabloko.7039:

Warrior with longbow??? I don’t get it. How can a big dude with a ton of health and a ton of CC be worthless? Do they not have tanks in this game?

There aren’t any fulltanks anymore, here’s the reason why:

- DMG got buffed by quite a lot and offensive abilities in general, but defense didn’t get buffed. So even with the tankiest specs possible, you couldn’t really hold against 2 opponents for long enough anymore. So ppl just stripped away all the defense that you didn’t need to win a 1v1, so the builds wouldn’t miss out on DMG in favour of defense that wouldn’t really do anything.

Jabloko.7039:

And generally speaking I never follow the ‘meta’ in any game I play. I actually hate the word. But why would you play a Warrior with a longbow, that doesn’t make any sense.

Well, theres a difference between playing only the meta builds and sticking with builds that just don’t work. The Warrior uses Longbow because in the more sustainy builds most classes use celestial Amu and the Warrior gets tons of DPS, fire-fields, AoE and some burst with the Longbow. It’s by far the best choice for a semi-tanky warrior. And Sword-Warhorn is used because of the insane condi-clear of the warhorn and the Sword gives you a Leap-Finisher and some burst with Sword-3.
I don’t think other Weapon-Sets or builds are worthless, but for the current meta, the "classic "shoutbow really is the best choice. It’s not the IMHO most used build in the Meta for nothing. ^^’

no1 likes these procs.

I like the change to panic strike though. Tons of Stunbreakers don’t really deal too well with immob, so if a stealth-spike hits you and you get dazed/stuned and immobilized, some classes have a very hard time dealing with it.

But the worst thing about these procs is that you cannot avoid them, because they only trigger when they hit. They should just give you a buff that your next atk has the added effect of panic strike/chill of death (be it immob or fear or whatever), and you loose the buff with your next atk – doesn’t matter if it hits or not.

This could and should also be applied to stuff like Sigil of Doom, Life-Leech and all those other unavoidable procs. I don’t mind if you make stretch the effect out over a few attacks, so you cannot simply dodge all of it so easily, as long as it’s at least possible to dodge it.

Laraley.7695:

skowcia.8257:

Personally i dont know where that medi being a hardcounter to power ranger myth coming from as its false. At a point its 50/50 for both sides but outside of a point theres no way that guard will be capable of doing much vs a pew as they lack mobility and get kited to death in current state.

It’s the same as saying fresh air hard counters ranger. If the ranger has a half brain and don’t pew pew into reflect and swaps to gs when the deflect/reflect is on, it’s hardly a hard counter.

well, it’s not only the reflect…. between magnetic wave, obsidian flesh and swirling winds, you have a solid 13 seconds of basically invulnerability against a PR, 4 of which also apply to the GS. Also, you have lots of CC and a teleport, blinds etc. on top of it.

And how exactly do you kite a Medi-Guard? ^^’
JI+Hammer5 will do the trick against a class that runs no stability/teleports and most of PR’s have neither.
Also, no good PR would ever fight a Medi-Guard on point (maybe for a finishing blow with GS), but you just spam arrows on him and kite the Scepter Auto’s…..

Sol.4310:

Also, you have to remember if your taking LB/GS Ranger into Team Que or a Tourney and other team has Medi Guard, well you should think about changing class as Medi Guard is 100% the hard counter to LB/GS Rangers a smart team will take full advantage of this and train you out early.

How so? I mean, I would consider Medi-Guard favoured against PR, but there are much harder counters to the PR, like S/F-Fresh-Air… And in 1v1’s, you really wouldn’t put a PR against a Medi-Guard… actually, you wouldn’t put PR in any 1v1’s if it’s not a non-counter glasscannon like Thief or Mesmer.

Even Staff-Ele is better in Teamfights against a PR than Medi-Guard: Good CC, AoE-Prot and reflection if the PR wants to target the Staff-Ele with LB and tons of CC, peel and Stunbreakers if he wants to go at him in Melee.

weapon-skills and F1-F4 standard
Utilities: Control+1-5 (I’ve played tons of SC:BW and SC2, so pushing control with the bottom side of my hand, not a Finger, is no problem.)
F – Stow Weapon
Q – look back (I use this all the time… ppl should get in the habit of pressing this key every 2-5 seconds)
E – turn around
1 additional mouse-key for switching weapons and 1 for switching targets (Control+Mouse-Key for nearest target)

Random Weird Guy.3528:

PowerBottom.5796:

D/D-Ele has nothing to offer that a cele-rifle and/or shoutbow can’t do as good or better.

This is simply not true.

D/D ele has far more AoE condition cleanse than an engi.
D/D ele has more pressure and CCs than shoutbow.

Well, these are non-issues though, since Shoutbow offers enough AoE-Condition-Cleanse in teamfights and since no1 seems to punish Engis in 1v1 Situations for a lack of condition-cleanse (because of the fear that condis are usless in teamfights or after good rotations because of Shoutbow), both Engi and Shoutbow are the better choice than D/D-Ele. Might as well count Medi-Guard too.

In Teamfights, I don’t like D/D-Ele at all. Yes, it has decent support and better Mightstacking than basically any other build, but the class is Melee-only, it has many channeled spells that just get interrupted very easily and a very high amount of DMG comes from easily cleansed burning. Currently, I actually prefer to run an S/D-Cele build (2/0/0/6/6), because it offers even better mightstacking and has more range and more bursty physical damage.

Staff-Ele >>> D/D-Ele, cuz Staff is at least good in teamfights, D/D-Ele has nothing to offer that a cele-rifle and/or shoutbow can’t do as good or better.

On Niflhel and Temple, I think Mesmer is insanely good, on the other maps, a Mesmer isn’t really necessary.

Panic-Strike Thief is basically always a must-have, because of stealth-openers and stealth-movements on the map and because it’s just a very strong and bursty zerker-build with insane unblockable immob, high mobility etc.

So basically I’d go for:

- Shoutbow
- Cele-Rifle
- Staff-Ele (or another Shoutbow/Cele-Rifle, just sth. with sustain and good teamfight)
- Panic-Strike
- Mesmer (on Nilfhel or Temple), on other Maps, probably a Medi-Guard.

most ppl don’t like Ranger because they don’t know the basics of how to play the game:

- They don’t LoS
- They don’t know that you can’t just stay on the node against certain classes
- They don’t change up their builds in any way against certain classes
- They rotate the wrong builds to battle against certain builds

Becuase of these reasons and because the PowerRanger is so dependant on the right MU’s and the right Map, we see barely any PowerRangers at the Top level.

But I think with the addition of the new specializations, the PowerRanger could be on top of the Meta. Especially because of much stronger interrupts, which will give him an added strength in teamfights, which he is currently lacking (cuz he has barely any support/utility besides the very strong ult)

Tipp: Use piercing arrows instead of the longer range on any Map thats not foefire – It’s soooo much better!

Volrath.1473:

how is removing/merging traits going to generate more build diversity?! o.O’ they are limiting professions even more…

as for the stream… No idea, i don’t think they announced anything at all.

not really, there are tons of builds that are unviable because they lack some specific thing and can’t make up for it in other aspects (like condi-removal, mobility, sustain), so more trait-points and more focused traits gives those builds a chance to flourish. :P

Take Interrupting on Mesmer for example: You don’t have enough points to go for 6 in power, cuz you need Illusionary persona and the clone on dodge and powerblock is a bit too weak: Now you can have all three and a better powerblock, so it’s actually possible to go for a strong interrupt build.

Boggs.6482:

choovanski.5462:

Boggs.6482:

Honestly, though, what do we expect from a game where people can win a 50k pvp tournament by being lucky enough to be the last hit on an npc?

^ that is literally video games though.

It wouldn’t be if we had 3v3 arenas Kappa

the problem discussed in this topic would exist in all game-modes; not every discussion needs to be about arena. -.-°

and yepp, those random procs need to go:

- too random
- too bursty
- unavoidable
- heavily favouring certain builds/playstyles
- no skill needed

I’d rather know when the specializations (not the elite ones) actually arrive….. Really excited to test out some new builds (I’ve been theorycrafting new builds for hours).

But I’m also getting reaaally tired of waiting with no clear information whatsoever….

L Step.8659:

I don’t really know how I feel about this thread. It comes off like saying the ele needs this to keep his rightful spot in the meta and it needs to be dd. Not all classes will be meta. From what we’ve seen ele is either balanced to be broken or useless in PvP and I get that’s annoying.

I think the bigger issue is these celestial classes. They can do so much at once, support, hold a point, damage, cc all at a very high level. Most professions have to spec so hard into a certain way they don’t get the versatility and effectiveness as these and it seems like ele having to choose between these 2 traits is them being normalized like the others. I think instead of keeping ele on par with war and engi all 3 need to be brought down to a certain extent. Either that or remove the celestial amulet so the classes that can’t use everything effectively at once aren’t forced out of the meta and anet can probably balance better knowing each amulet has a certain purpose for the profession. Like cleric will be support/sustain and zerker would be damage etc.

Just my opinion though.

Ele is actually pushed out of the meta just because he can’t do all the stuff as well as other classes (and it’s not only cele-amu either):

Shoutbow, Cele-Engi and Zerker-Medi-Guard fall into the same role as D/D-Ele and the role is basically: Be able to do everything: mobility, teamfight, sustain, dps, support, decap – you name it.

D/D just isn’t as good in teamfights as shoutbow/cele-engi and the medi-guard offers insane CC und burst. D/D is pretty much the lesser choice for every position in the current meta (as long as cele-engis aren’t getting punished in 1v1’s for lack of condi-removal, cuz in teamfights, the war takes care of that).

The only reason we still see D/D-Ele’s in the current meta is cuz ppl are comfortable with it and unwilling to play another class.

Alekt.5803:

One of the best thing that could be done to a more offensive oriented Elementalist is to give the Staff some more faster and reliable auto attacks.

Chain Lightning.
No longer a projectile. Instant cast like the mesmer GS that will do the 3 bounces as before (Think WoW Shaman Chain Lightning)

Fireball.
Make it a straight liner that is much faster. Keep the AOE (Add 20% blast finisher Why not? finisher)

Water Bolt.
Make it a small cone (this one might be too radical) like the Guardian staff auto. This one would deal a minimal amount of damage, but would heal by a small amount in the area.

Stoning.
Make it shoot two stones (like the warrior longbow attack). Give the the old fireball projectile behavior ( Angled shot that goes to a medium speed.) First stone applies cripple for 1 sec, Second stone applies weakness for 3 seconds (like before). (20% projectile finisher instead of 100%, a lil nerf here)

some auto-atk that’s at least somewhat decent dps-wise for 1v1’s would be cool…. Like make it possible for the chain-lightning to bounce to allies for a small buff (5-sec might, 2 sec fury or sth….). I mean: I often run Staff-Ele and I very rarely use any of the auto-atk’s. ^^

And yes, they could generally be a bit less “clunky” with higher velocities. I wouldn’t mind lower casttimes as a trade-off with lower impact of the auto-atk’s – at least I could throw 1 or 2 in there sometimes.
Staff-Ele in general feels a bit clunky and slow in terms of the weapon-skills, lot’s of fairly long to very long casttimes, channeling, long animations, low velocity of projectiles etc.
Some of it makes sense for what the Skills do, but other things makes no sense at all – like really: What the hell am I gonna do with a blind that has 1,5 s casttime? :P

totally forgot about this….. spectating the good teams ingame was an awesome aspect of GW1.

practice 1v1’s…..

Really_ If you have a Problem against a certain Build, ask in the Mists for 1v1’s, it is by far the best piece of advice I can give you.

1v1’s are a science and if you want to be good at it, you need to practice.

Deliberate and focused 1v1-practice helps you more than ten times that amount of “just playing” unranked/ranked, if you really want to get better at the game.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

On the other hand, it serves as mild amusement to watch someone else play on stream

You get to see every possible scenario without queing up yourself

Yepp, seeing Teldo play his oldschool bomb/flamethrower/Elexir R with Pistol/Shield has put a smile on my face. ^^’

Still a strong decap and 1v1 build and very fun to play.

I pretty much only log in for the daylies….. Not motivated at all to play before at least the specializations bring in new wind.

Kinda sad: ANet really had some momentum going with the announcement of Stronghold-Mode, specializations and the Stronghold-Beta – but once again they let it slip through their fingers by not acting quick enough and actually releasing the content.

In terms of War, Shield isn’t really too weak, but warhorn is just way too good. Even in a meta where physical DMG spikes are the norm, War still uses the warhorn, because the teamsupport is so ridiculously strong.

For the Engis, the problem isn’t the shield, but the pistol: It does almost no physical DMG, so it’s not suitable for the current meta.

stop talking about Arena being “true” pvp….. Some of the best and/or most successful PvP-Games have NPC’s, larger maps and multiple objectives.

Besides, the map just sucks:

1) No real incentive of getting out on the map – if this would be played seriously, ppl would just w8 on their side because it’s a huge disadvantage to leave your respawn-point and there’s nothing that “forces” you out on the map.
2) Too many narrow pathways, especially for 5v5.
3) Too many spots to LoS (some are good, but it’s too much).
4) having it in the same rotation as Conquest is annoying.

Mrbig.8019:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

You would lose so much dynamic in build versatility if you began to nerf all of these sigil/rune effects. Rather than wishing for nerfs, consider wishing for buffs to the useless sigils/runes. As of now there are 42 possible sigils to use in pvp but only about 8 of them are viable at all. If useless sigils were buffed, the game would have much more flavor and that is exactly what pvp needs, not blanding nerfs.

Those sigils are 90% unavoidable/unpredictable damage.

it’s bad

It has no counterplay

It’s unhealthy for the game

Needs removed asap.

yepp – it’s not about them being “just” strong, it’s that they are:

- completely random procs
- you can’t react to/predict the procs, since they are “on hit”, so no dodging possible
- heavily favour certain builds
- add to the already very bursty meta
- aren’t fun or skill-dependant
- there are enough decent other sigils/runes that the builds that use air/fire etc. won’t just be unviable all of a sudden.

I see no possible reason why any1 would want to keep them in PvP.

+1 ’nuff has been said about this topic for ANet to act….

Random Weird Guy.3528:

You know that D/D eles are being pushed out of the meta because of shoutbows right? Because shoutbows do everything better with arguably less skill required.

I don’t agree…. cuz i’d remove the “arguably”. ^^’

And yes, Cleansing Ire is way too powerful. Combined with all the other insane Condi-removal of the War, which often is AoE too and the absolutely insane Health and Armor-Pool, the Shoutbow is just way too good while also being the by far easiest build to play in the current meta.

Also, the build single-handedly removes any full-condition-builds from the meta.

TL:DR:
Shoutbow is:
- too strong
- boring/easy to play
- hurts the meta more than any other build

Interesting Idea, especially since no1 really runs toughness-amu’s anymore. Maybe w8 after how tanky certain classes will become after the specialization-change, cuz I think thoughness might have a revival…. might.