Guild Wars 2

Drivrius.6159:

Dante.1763:

Drivrius.6159:

Dante.1763:

Drivrius.6159:

You enjoy HOT as it is, but still think the specs cost too much.

Now put yourself in our shoes, not only do we agree on the specs cost but to get them we have to play content we don’t like.

To me that goes hand in hand. Doesnt PVP get them unlocked for PVP though? And cant WVW earn them through WVW?

I only play PvE and I really dislike the new zones.

Thats all i do too, but im loving the new zones. If they cost less though, wouldnt you be able to get them by doing the regular zones? i mean my ranger had 200 points sitting on her from 100% mapping.

I have 100% map completion on my Necro, I would love if it only costed 200 HPs, it would mean I could avoid the new zones unless I wanted to see the story.

The part where they forced us to do the new zones was a mistake, it should be a choice not a necessity. Hell if I was in charge I would have made it possible to lvl while using your elite spec, rather then gate it behind all other specs being maxed.

You don’t have to do the new zones. Just go WvW with it. You don’t even have to do the new BL’s. You can stick in vanilla EB if you want.

Ashen.2907:

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

What disappoints me is … you’re all kittening on it because there is the slightest bit of challenge.

So you are disappointing yourself then? Because that is not a common complaint. I have not seen anyone complain that there is the slightest bit of challenge, but giving you the benefit of the doubt that there is someone out there who did, still leaves your depiction inaccurate.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Disabled-American-And-HoT

Not so much the OP, but read the comments section.

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

The expansion is incredibly awesomely overwhelmingly fantastic.

What disappoints me is the number of posts on this forum, claiming exactly the opposite. These wonderful devs poured their heart and soul into this rich experience, and you’re all kittening on it because there is the slightest bit of challenge.

No one on here is asking “How do I do this?” It’s all “I can’t do this.”

Put your fingers to use learning how to rise to the challenge, instead of demonstrating your stereotypical Internet rage.

You might just find not only this game, but life, more enjoyable.

It’s too easy to follow the herd. There’s no value in being that kind of person.

I think the forums are broken. It’s not letting me upvote this enough.

Zach.2618:

Guys if you look at the whole thread it is mostly just ohoni arguing against everyone else. Why is this thread still alive seriously, just let ohoni perceive it as taking grind to a whole new lvl who cares. Why are you trying to convince someone who obviously won’t be convinced.

I suppose it has something to do with what kind of people take the opposite side. See, I would assume most of the people debating him are the kind of people who enjoy a challenge — however fruitless. Personally, I was curious where he would go with what is said, like seeing what a grasshopper tries to do when you drop it in a big spider’s web. I can’t make any promises, but I think I’ve got what I needed :P

Ohoni.6057:

Granted from the start of the discussion. We don’t know enough about GW2 raids to make any hard decisions yet, I am basing my concerns on what I believe to be reasonable assumptions, assumptions that in many cases my counterparts want to be true, and with the full expectation that if the facts do not bare out those assumptions then that line of reasoning would have to adapt accordingly.

I don’t believe that this is any reason to not discuss potential issues in advance.

The reason is clutter. Because it is more productive to discuss what is, rather than what could be.

It really is not a problem. You are making it one.

I’m really not.

You really are.

Missing out on rewards is a completely acceptable option.

It really isn’t.

It really is.

I’m not “giving up on it,” I’m just assuming, based on my reaction to previous dungeon/Fractal content, and raids from previous games, and what we’ve seen of the current raid, that raiding is not likely to be the sort of activity that I will enjoy. I know myself to be able to predict how I will react to a game, it’s how I pick and choose from the thousands of games on the market. I genuinely hope that you have, or at least will reach this level of self-understanding as well.

Stop assuming. It is a waste of time. Even if the assumtions are guestimations.

My point is, if you believe that players should be willing to “just accept” that they won’t be getting a certain item, then raiders should be equally willing to accept that while they will be getting that item, the other players can have it too. They should be willing to “just accept” that they are not entitled to exclusive access to that item, that exclusive access to that item is not on the table.

Only one can be true, not both.

It totally would, and that’s totally ok. Yes, it would reduce the value of the item for those that would currently have it, but it would also expand ownership of that item to a much larger pool of people. The few who would currently receive it would be slightly sadder, for merely having the item rather than having exclusive ownership of it, but the many who would be gaining access to the item would be significantly happier, from having not had the item at all to now having it.

No, it is not ok. And you are assuming again.

It’s like if you measure happiness on a scale of 1-10, and compare a group of 100 people, where only 20 of them originally had the item, but it’s expanded so that 80 people have it, then say the 20 would originally average 8 happiness about the initial situation, while the remaining 80 average 4, in the new system the original 20 would come out averaging 5 while the incoming 60 would average 6, so in total you’ve seen a net “happiness shift” of +90, with the increased sadness of the elites drowned out by the increased happiness of the proles.

All hypothetical, of course, but it stands to reason, right?

It falls to reason. All you are considering is happiness, but you are forgetting interest. The two corrilate when pushed to extreams, but generally they are seperate. This is the same scenario that occured shortly after launch. The mass exodus of people was largely due in part to the availability of everything. Reworking systems to be similar to the past would be reason for a further exodus.

Not really. It can be nice to have an item themed to a certain area/content, so that it more closely matches that thing, like the Foefire weapons and Ascalon, or the Mystic weapons and Rata Sum, and it can be fine to make these items easier to acquire in a given area, but there’s no real reason to make them only available in that one area of the game. Being able to earn them elsewhere is fine too, just as you can earn the a fore mentioned weapons from any Mystic Forge.

Yes really.

I’m willing to do that, but honestly I’d prefer to make it available to anyone that wants the same benefit.

Too bad. Head your own advice before you preach it. You are not willing to do that until then.

That’s why I’m suggesting ways that they could avoid it.

There are simpler ways to avoid it then this. Such as avoiding it.

Sure, and ultimately that would be what would have to happen, but if you truly wanted to be helpful, you could at least stop arguing against me, right? And no, I don’t need a dev to reply, they don’t often do that, but I am hoping maybe one will instead actually change the problematic elements of the game for the better.

I am being helpful, but not for your position. Also that better you mention is arbitrary to your minority.

And it’s exactly that sort of decision I’m trying to remove. It helps no one. People shouldn’t be forced to choose the lesser of two evils, they should be able to say “I want this item, and I don’t want to do that activity, so I will do this other activity instead.” And likewise “I like that activity, but the rewards attached are lame, so I’m going to do that activity and earn credit towards something else instead.” Play how you like, be rewarded how you like, so long as it’s all in balance.

They are not evils, they are life choices. Choices happen, deal with it. Often said choices are not what you want to choose. Deal with it.

If the whole game was in the state you describe, too much value would be lost. Content with little value is quantity over quality. Reward obtainablity abundancy is a pathway to failure through disinterest because people will always pick the easiest route. The easiest route leads to boredom in part to grinding (see old CoF and swamp fractal). This would lead to disinterest. The game would revert back to it’s older self — just with more content.

Ohoni.6057:

Nobody is disputing that there are people who enjoy grinding for loot in content they enjoy. I am one of them, when it’s content I enjoy. My point was specifically referencing people playing content that they do not enjoy, and every type of content in the game is something that some people do not enjoy, and almost everyone has at least some content in the game that they do not enjoy.

The point is, when the situation occurs where you do not enjoy the content, but because of the game’s design it is the only way to earn something you want, what do you do in that situation? It’s not so uncommon that you can pretend it just isn’t likely to come up.

My point is that players who do enjoy grinding loot in content they enjoy should be able to do that, that should be an option. But if you do not enjoy that content, then you should be able to do different content instead, and still grind out those rewards.

Ok, whether you view raids as grindy or not is up to you, just accept as fact that there are a lot of people who would view raids as grindy. We don’t have exact details of how raids will work out in GW2, but most people are assuming that you will have to complete the same raid wings several times each in order to earn all the available rewards, possibly three or more each, and that would certainly constitute grind by any reasonable definition. If it’s possible to actually fail the raid wings then that would only further increase the level of grind.

Ok, I think I am finally starting to boil down your viewpoint. First, though, allow me to address the previous paragraph. Most of your support for raids being grindy are based on assumtions (i.e. completing the same raid wing multiple times to get what is wanted). Truth is we have no idea how they will be structured rewardwise yet. Albeit this means I can offer little to no support myself that they won’t be. So for now, let’s leave anything involving the “grindy-ness” of raids off the table.

Nope. I just flat out and absolutely reject the notion of “well if you don’t want the content then you can just give up on the reward, it’s not a problem.”

Kitten that.

If there is a reward that I want, and it’s locked behind content, then I either have to do that content, or miss out on the reward, and NEITHER is an acceptable option. They may be acceptable options to you, but don’t try to project that defeatist attitude.

It really is not a problem. You are making it one. Missing out on rewards is a completely acceptable option. In fact — it happens all the time. When not everyone, or very few people, has/have a reward, it just works to add to the prestige. I’m not “projecting” a “defeatist attitude,” I am simply being reasonable with expectations and game market mechanics. If anything, I could argue you are projecting such an attitude, as you are so quick to give up on content you have even yet to try. I really don’t mean to be rude, but…when I read this it just sounds like sophisticated whining :\

And that’s a fine attitude to have, so long as you only apply it to yourself and your choices, and do not intend for other players to have the same position. If you can argue that a player should “be fine” with not having access to a given reward, then you should be doubly fine with “non-elitist elites” being able to get that item, but not having exclusive access to them. If non-elites should be fine with not having the item, then the elites should be doubly fine with sharing them.

This is counter-intuitive. If non-elites are fine being in a position of not having an item, who would elites share said items with? How would the sharing even happen? What kind of mechenic would this be in the game? I guess I could simplify this down to: How does a player being fine with not having access to a given reward correlate to elites not having exclusive access?

Going over to the topic of raid item value, what you are suggesting would severly devalue the uniqueness of items earned in raids. Having multiple ways to obtain some items is good sometimes (such as ascended gear), but it is equally important to have gear that is only obtainable through certain branches of content (such as the Annelid Rifle Skin). The reason being due to the unique value it adds to these items. Their uniqueness serves as a visual representation of direct accomplishment. I understand you want every reward in the game to have multiple (or at least 2) methods of acquire, and that’s a fine attitude to have, so long as you only apply it to yourself and your choices, and do not intend for other players to have the same position.

Every attempt would be a grind, at least after the first. Stretching out that process wouldn’t improve anything.

More assumtion on reward requirements…

Or don’t do the raids at all. Wait for legendary armor to be potentially released at a later date, you won’t need it till then. Sure you’ll be down a skin or three, but at the end of the day are you really suffering?

Yes?

Wow. Dude. Let a Reaper slap you with their GS’s 3rd auto. If a game is causing you to suffer, it is time to move on to games that better suit you. Misery loves company, but this company doesnt want your misery.

I’d like to add that I would be happy to help you when the time comes. My main’s name is Lance Bowson. I’m not always on due to limited internet and abundant work, but I love helping others when I can

I appreciate that, but rather than offering to help me on your own terms, perhaps you could actually listen to what I am saying, listen to what I actually want out of this, and help me on my own terms, to get what I want, not what you’re willing to let me have. I would rather have your support in allowing me to not have to do raids than to have your help in completing them.

Then this is where we part (probably?). I can’t help you. Only the devs can help you, and I (maybe?) agree with their position on this matter. If you are posting so heavily on these threads in the hope that a dev will reply, then I wish you luck with that. But what this seems to boil down to, as you so eloquently put it, is “what [you] want.” You can sugarcoat your statements with your certainty that others agree with you too (and I’m sure many do), but I imagine that you guys are unfortunately in the minority on this one. I’m just going to leave with this…

Whether you “have” to do raids or not is purely up to you. But sooner or later you are going to have to judge which is stronger: your dislike towards content you have yet to try, or your desire for rewards that are unnecessary within the grand scheme of the rest of the game’s content. If you choose the former, you may view it as giving up, but I advise you to think it as moving on. Content will be blooming on the 23rd. There will be plenty of other things to keep your attention. If you choose the later, then understand that you can always have my assistance when avaliable. However, my support on this matter is something I just cannot not agree to provide.

Spirits guide you.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, and as I said, if it’s just me, if I’m the only one that cares, then definitely don’t do it. I won’t mind. I’m confident, however, that there are more people that would prefer to not have to run content that they do not enjoy, than there are people who enjoy grinding for loot in content that they hate. Ultimately, you can’t please everyone, so you have to aim at pleasing as many people as you can. You’re inevitably going to lose at least a few of them along the way.

You say “that there are more people that would prefer to not have to run content that they do not enjoy, than there are people who enjoy grinding for loot in content that they hate.” But I feel this is implying that there are only these 2 types of people and situations. First of all, there are plenty of people who prefer grinding for loot in content they enjoy. Second, I do not see raids as being something that is “grindy,” as they have a clear progression path where the only grind that could come in would be a result of the player(s) — not the content. Now, if you are in full exotic gear, and you are bent on believing that no one will accept you, and you can’t get over the feeling that you are hampering the people who have agreed with you running exotics in the first place, AND you want the rewards that raids provide in as short a time frame as possible — Then, yes, you would force yourself into a state of grinding. But otherwise, you could take as much time as you wanted getting a single set of ascended (not very hard with time and even just some trinkets and a weapon would do). Then it would only be a matter of time to practice the raid wings to become adept enough at them to get what you want. In the end, the only thing holding you back is you.

But I thought you said you have zero intrest in doing raids? How does the “need” for ascended gear affect you?

Funny that you remember that about me, but forget the other thing that I inevitably say in the same paragraph, that while I don’t want to do raids, at least not more than once or twice, if they lock specific rewards behind raids then I’m going to have to do them regardless of whether I enjoy it or not.

No, you are not going to have to do them. That is an arbitrary condition you are putting on yourself (bring condi-cleanse). It’s true, this content is not going to be a walk in the park; It’s going to take real effort to aquire what sits behind this challenge. But that is what makes said items truely valuable. It is finally a chance for the more elite (not to be confused with elitist) side of the community to be allowed to show their skill and commitment — not through grinding or wallet-dumping, but through real devotion to building skill.

I totally agree with you though, the ideal situation would be one in which people who don’t enjoy raiding would have absolutely no reason to set foot inside one, and could pursue their fun elsewhere without abandoning any rewards they might want.

I disagree with this, though. The base here is implying that the rewards that are “unobtainable” are necessary. In my opinion, legendary armor is largely a convenience — not a requirement. While the unique skins are pure flavor. Rewards such as these permiate Gw2. There are plenty of rewards that I wanted but didn’t get a chance to acquire (the Tequatl Wings and Tribal armor to name a couple). But I’m content with knowing that I just couldn’t get them. This all compounds on the possibility that Legendary armor could be obtainable through other means in the future. It may be the far future, but that is un-important considering the rewards just that too: unimportant.

Unless you are pugging the raid (I highly advise against this), then just find friendly friends who are willing to run with exotics in the group.

But even then, if I’m playing with friends and they have Ascended, and I don’t, then I’m definitely doing less than I could, I’m holding the group back a bit, and that’s not fair to them, especially if failure is possible. I mean, in a current dungeon, it’s no big deal if you run in wearing Rares, maybe the dungeon takes a minute or two more because your DPS is weak, but everyone still gets their reward. If your weakness could actually make the difference between everyone getting a prize and everyone going home sad, well you’d have to be a real jerk to bring anything less than your A-game.

And if everyone has exotics, then that makes the chances of success even less, and statistically, those who don’t have ascended would likely be the ones most in need of that 15% cushion.

Yes, it is true that having exotics could lead to your team’s failure. But since this group you made had agreed to running with exotics in the group to begin with, it is not “unfair” to them — mearly a hindrance. Keep in mind that there is only a .6% difference to the 10 man squade if you are lacking ascended (ascended gear provides a 6% buff — not a 15% as you stated. So having 1 in a 10 man group in exotics would only amount to that {even less to Rangers due to their pet}). The chance that your lack of ascended would cause the wipe to begin with is nill. And if the party agrees to your state beforehand, there is no part to one being a “jerk.” Plus everyone can just try again tomorrow if the party doesn’t make it. Again, this is not content that is ment to be easy. Not all of it is supposed to be completed in a day. Not everyone is supposed to be able to do it right out of the gate, so to speak.

Just take your time with it. Don’t grind anything! (I rarely choose to unless I’m in the mood) work up to some ascended over time through doing what you like best. Find a friendly guild or group of people who couldn’t care less if you’re in ascended. And then practice one raid wing at a time. It’s going to take a long while, but the feeling you get with victory is all the sweeter

Or don’t do the raids at all. Wait for legendary armor to be potentially released at a later date, you won’t need it till then. Sure you’ll be down a skin or three, but at the end of the day are you really suffering?

I’d like to add that I would be happy to help you when the time comes. My main’s name is Lance Bowson. I’m not always on due to limited internet and abundant work, but I love helping others when I can

(Please excuse typos. This was written from a phone <3 )

I refuse to believe this. You monster.

Ohoni.6057:

Ok, that’s fine. Can’t please everyone.

Doesn’t this same line apply to you too? If you realize this, why are you here saying what you are saying?

Other than the highest level fractals, is there anywhere else you NEED Ascended gear for fun/completion? No, there isn’t.

Raids, supposedly, and ANet seems to be moving towards Fractals and raiding as their higher end content, hence the renewed concern.

But I thought you said you have zero intrest in doing raids? How does the “need” for ascended gear affect you? And if it does somehow, that need is arbitrary. Unless you are pugging the raid (I highly advise against this), then just find friendly friends who are willing to run with exotics in the group.

After I get what I need out of the raids, I personally would not mind “carrying” said people through them.

It’s all sensationalized nonsense really. There is absolutely zero chance there won’t be raid groups being formed purely around exotic gear. The community is weird like that, heck I won’t be surprised if players start messing around with RARE level 80 gear just because they can.

Well sure, but these groups will likely be based around people that already have Ascended and just want to show off by doing without. They aren’t likely to bring in players that don’t actually have the stuff, because they will be focused on above average skill levels. Basically, the ones that need that option the most aren’t likely to get it.

This is an assumption, really. And it seems you plan to pug through these — again, I advise against this. I am only going to pug these when I am looking to assist others who have only been in a position to pug (guildless). If you are guildless or are in a guild that is not PvE focused, then I would highly recommend finding a friendly guild who is. This is an MMO after all. It is nice to connect with others

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ohoni.6057:

It’s not that they must, it’s that they should try to adapt the game to as many players as possible, so long as it does no harm elsewhere. Look, if it were just me who wanted this then they should obviously not do it, Totally not worth it on their end. I don’t believe for a second that it’s just me though, and neither do any of you or you wouldn’t be trying so hard to get me to shut up about it. If my cause were as hopeless as you all make it out to be then there would be no reason whatsoever for the vitriol thrown my way.

It’s not that we’re trying to get you to “shut up” about it. We’re trying to explain to you that altering the game’s model and direction to cater to the Entitled is bad business.

If you don’t want to play Raids, don’t play. Simple as that. If you really want that Legendary armor, but don’t want to play Raids, then you’ve agreed to never getting it. It’s hard to make a complaint over something that you’ve consciously decided to not pursue. It’s illogical. It’s like saying “I want a college degree in Economics”, while also saying “and I prefer getting it without having to go to school”.

Yes there will be a lot of players who won’t like Raids. At the same time, there will be a lot of players without Legendary armor. And to the point of this thread, that is ok. I may very well be one of those players who won’t have Legendary armor. But that would just mean I don’t deserve it. Legendary gear, going forward, will only be for those who put in the efforts. You can call them Elites, Hardcore, what have you. The common theme they’ll all share is that they’re worthy of such gear.

You worded it better than me.

Ohoni.6057:

Running a few dungeon paths on daily basis can hardly be called grind.

It is if you don’t enjoy dungeons.

Ok, Ohoni. From the little bit I read, I’m getting that you are in disagreement with where you think the game is going. I want to ask you a question, but first, let me clearify a couple things.

- You seem to be salty about the whole concept of ascended gear. From what I understand, one big reason you don’t like it is because it wasn’t in the game at launch, and you think A-net promised they wouldn’t run a system where they add additional tiers of gear to the game. To be clear, one of the biggest reasons it wasn’t in the game at launch is because A-net ran out of time to impliment it. If you were playing at release, you should understand that many core systems simply didn’t make it in time. This issue was further realized when A-net saw people were getting exotic gear far too easily, and partially as a result — running out of things to strive for. Realizing this, and the huge disparity between exotic and legenday, A-net finally got around to implimenting ascended (they were even nice enough to role the acquisition out nice and slow to give the more casual populous a chance at catching up with the hatdcore).

Furthermore, A-net has stuck true to their promise. Despite what you may believe, they never promised that they wouldn’t add an additional tier. Rather, they promised that they wouldn’t support a tier ladders in new content. This means that they decided to not continuously add new tiers of gear as the backbone for progression. “Adding” one tier wasn’t breaking that promise, it was filling in kitten that was left post-launch.

There, now with that out of the way, it is clear you do not want to work towards ascended gear — which is fine. But, I guess what I am getting at is: what are you working towards? You said you don’t enjoy dungeons, so what do you enjoy? Are you salty about “needing” ascended gear because without it, you think you will be excluded from raids? Assuming you answer yes to the previous question, If you don’t enjoy dungeons, what makes you think you would enjoy raids (essentially hardcore dungeons)? It is quite possibly just not content that works for you.

I have more to say, but first, I need to understand your mindset. Also, please forgive any missed typos…I wrote this from a phone at 1 in the morning out of intrigue. :P

The “meta” will most definitely fluctuate after HoT’s release, but I wouldn’t count your gear out just yet. I’m sure there will be a place for zerker Rangers somewhere. Don’t stress over it.

Iason Evan.3806:

Actually OP, it’s harder for PvP players to get Legendaries. We are required to play PvE if we want to build one. No one is required to PvP to build one.

^ This. Most people only think about themselves without looking at the big picture.

sicsempertyrannis.3510:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Since most people already have ascended, I seriously doubt there will be much in the way of exclusion. lol

Do you have a source for this claim? Are you referring to any piece of ascended gear, or full ascended? Fabricated statements, ending with a “lol” give the impression that you’re not contributing in good faith.

I think a way to better word his statement is: Most people could already have ascended. It’s been in the game for 2 years, and the market for said items has generally mellowed down. Earning a full set of ascended is a goal that takes some time, but is easily achievable with commitment.

sicsempertyrannis.3510:

Obtena.7952:

If people aren’t using or are misinterpreting the definition of grind Anet uses to define the concept of their game, then what those people say isn’t really relevant.

Whoa there, that’s one big, ugly logical fallacy my friend. Please try to debate in a respectful manner, without dismissive rhetoric.

Just came into this conversation. So I’m clueless atm. Explain?

I name my pets after Bionicles :P

Electro.4173:

In exchange for a 40+ second recharge, sure.

Worth

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

• Gyros now start their cooldown upon summon rather than upon gyro death. Medic, Shredder, Purge and Bulwark gyro now have a 35s cooldown, up from 30s. Sneak Gyro needed a cooldown that was longer since it would otherwise have potential 100% uptime, so it now has a cooldown of kitten , up from 30s (its 30s duration remains). This should encourage players to keep them around to gain their benefits for longer.
  ~ Irenio

This means we can get our cooldown start on summon back to spirits! Right? RIGHT?!

People. These are legendary weapons we are talking about. LEGENDARY weapons. You shouldn’t feel so entitled, imo.

rezag.5401:

from what i understand these are just the first of the elite specializations(they said u can only have one elite spec…so more to come)as such i think around 65-80 may actually be accurate(if we consider up to 2 extra specializations beside the first)
P.S i personally hope for a necro specialization where we ride an undead dragon in battleXD(and each class with a fitting mount for that set of specialization,it can work similar to the mounts the new mobs have(i can dream)

Correct. A-net has stated that they want each profession to end up with at least 3 elite specializations.

AgitatedFox.5287:

Wolfey.3407:

Popping in,
The developers are reading this still. They are not going to post anything until they are certain of any changes they are going to make.

The thread is not being ignored, just not being posted in at the moment. They don’t want to shoot them selves further in the foot by saying something and not following through with it 100%.

They also don’t want to start a chain reaction of: This class raged and got ton of responses from developers so now they hate ____ and ____. So now _ and _ rage and start expecting the same thing ranger go.

Again, It would be nice if they popped in and posted more; however, they are still reading this thread. (waits to get flamed).

Cool and all, but why couldn’t they have told us this?

True, but then you would also have people complaining that that is all the devs ever say.

Scrimschaw.5784:

CandyHearts.6025:

Scrimschaw.5784:

CandyHearts.6025:

Okay Seriously. I didn’t say anything but that other people were confused as to comparing apples and oranges (Boons to Heals. Go back and read). I’m not reading this book long post you made no offense. You keep reading WAYYY too far into everything I say.

Explaining how timed aegis is better than heals when I said they are NOT the same thing. Have nothing to do with Druid. If you guys wanna go carry on to compare Guard bunker to how Druid bunker could possibly work go do that in a proper thread.

I’m really not going to spend any more time on you because I can tell you’re just looking to argue and prove points. Have fun with that. You’re explaining like I said the total opposite when I said nothing.

Also proper paragraph structure is a thing.

And while you can go on to say it’s a worthy topic I would like you to take a gander at the subject heading. Does it say SPVP? It says Healing Power Scaling. You’re welcome.

So back on subject, if this thread will ever allow it. Right? xD

A TL;DR for you, then. I am too used to writing scientific papers, rather than responses on forums—my apologies for this.

Defensive boons and healing fall under the same banner in the GW2 trinity: support. They both mitigate damage. This is not “apples to oranges”, this is Gala to Granny Smith. Base Ranger has access to boons; therefore Druid has access to boons. Unlike boons, healing cannot be applied proactively. Druids fulfill a purely reactive role through healing—they need to get hit, and then they need to heal. I would prefer to see Druid support be multifaceted and have proactive options that synergize with base Ranger’s support through boons—especially now that Druid’s base healing is reduced.

Healing Power scaling affects all game modes, including sPvP. But ultimately, sPvP arguments can be applied to challenging PvE content as well.

All right. I can appreciate that you reword it. But this still doesn’t really fit what I am trying to say. I wouldn’t argue with what you said.

Let me explain my post/s:

I never said anything about how Druid shouldn’t have boons. But what I said was in the defense of Guardian not having to give up damage to be support vs Druid having to give up their dps to support. -This- is the Apples and Oranges I speak of. Guardian can apply boons with no healing power added. Druid can apply boons without any healing power added. What Druid can NOT do: is Heal well without Healing Power. Which is the same for Guardian. This is what I speak of. Nothing else.

I definitely get you now, thanks for clarifying. My greatest concern is, that as of now, Druid’s main support comes through healing—which you now need to spec into to see the full effect. If Druid got more boon support and better-scaling DPS (physical and/or condition), it wouldn’t be so reliant on Healing Power for effectiveness, and I would be much more comfortable with how it fits into the game as a support or hybrid class. It would be great if Irenio would say what he’s reducing the base heals to, but until then, we’re left with speculation. If we can’t offer DPS, boon support, tanking, reliable condition cleansing, or unique abilities (like boon stripping/conversion)…we are left in a very, very niche spot that will be outshone by other support classes, especially in non-raid content. I’m really hoping we will see some tune-ups to Druid skills (and a couple traits) to address this.

I also realize that Irenio may be resistant to adding boons on Druid because raid bosses will likely have boon stripping/corruption. I’m hoping boon corruption will be limited, since that will definitely trash a lot of other support classes and may make Druid 100% required for raids—an outcome I definitely DON’T want to see.

Sounds like you want druid to do practically everything. It only makes sense that if you want good heals, then you need healing power.

Mr Pin.6728:

Its not an assumption. The developer himself said on page 13 of the druid feedback thread that he would adjust the base heal down.

Now by how much we don’t know but people are concerned that they will be lowered enough that the spec will be impractical for power builds.

But he also said he would raise the power scaling. This could quite potentially mean bigger numbers when geared with healingP.

What exactly are you refering too when you say “power builds?” By builds do you mean build, and by build do you mean zerker? Because zealot exists, and that’s a power build.

Seems like nearly everyone here is assuming that the change to healing power scaling on these skills will actually nerf the numbers they do, rather than buff them. I may just be optomistic here, but I think the new scaling could quite possibly scale our heals past what they were previously (if you gear for healing).

Aomine.5012:

I’m voting for a new ONE-HAND range weapon that’s not pistol.

Maybe a throwing spear or something.

Thowing mace. Calling it now.

Aomine.5012:

Razor.9872:

Aomine.5012:

Razor.9872:

Ehecatl.9172:

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

There’ll be more supportive damage for Celestial Avatar by launch… possibly from trait modifications or from skill changes.

An issue which should not be decoupled here is that Celestial Avatar felt gated behind staff use (and troll unguent), which left a ranger with one damage-focused weapon option and one support weapon. I’m making some changes to astral force rate gain to try to address this. Ideally it should be possible to build up your astral force without -needing- to run staff, but running staff should speed up the process by nature of the heals it provides. This would yield the option of running two non-staff weapons while still having Celestial Avatar available.

Celestial Avatar healing is the best available by a decent margin right now. One issue that came up is that the healing coefficients are so insignificant that running with healing stats yields very little reward.

The best healing in the game being available without using any healing power; this is not good for the game.

The berserker meta not be the only consideration requires that other stat combinations be rewarding.

Being able to run two more damage-focused weapons (if that’s your thing) and still have Celestial Avatar available should address some of your offensive concerns if you want to play a bit more offensively as a hybrid. If you want to focus on being the top offense then you probably shouldn’t be selecting the Druid specialization.

That’s all I’m going to say on the subject for now (though I will continue to read constructive feedback here and elsewhere) as there is plenty to be done in order to address these and other issues. /me ducks back to work on Scrapper and Druid.

I am glad that Celestial Avatar is getting more damage, which may alleviate some of my following concerns, but I can’t stress enough how important it is that Celestial Avatar remains a valuable mechanic without any healing investment at all.

I fully understand and support the notion that to have the best healing you should have to invest in healing power. It’s only logical. However the fact Celestial Avatar is so completely devoted to healing means that if you lower the base healing of the skills too much the form will be outright useless to anyone without healing power on their gear. Celestial Avatar is a class mechanic and is not optional if you spec into druid. It would be a shame for it to only have value if you’re sporting healing power.

Like I said in my first paragraph, adding more damage to the Avatar State may alleviate some of my concerns as a more damage oriented build could compensate for lower healing in exchange for the ability to pressure people off them as they heal up more slowly. I just don’t want to see this mechanic make you weaker than base if you try to use it without the right stat spread.

No one should spec into druid for the glyphs, Ancient Seeds, or other abilities and find Celestial Avatar useless to their build.

If you are playing the Ranger profession for damage, you should not spec into Druid. That’s like saying you’re trying to get warmer, so you take your clothes off.

True, Druid will be the only elite specialization avaliable to Rangers at the start, but we will get more down the road.

In 3 years. (chuckle)
History is really good to study.

I’m not even sure this game will survive until next expansion = next specialization come out. Not being mean or anything, just feeling like their Korean boss are getting upset about the revenue and stuff.

Anyway, if I have to wait another 3 years for ranger to become better than a pigeon-holed class (the only support class that need stat investment or it becomes trash), I’d probably go main Revenant instead.

That is a rather pessimistic/negative outlook :\

You have to look at the bigger picture. The reason it took 3 years for this expansion, is because A-net was still unsure about their planned development and release model. Coupled with them still getting their base game/structure together, they had little room for the concept of an expansion. However, now that these types of releases are on the table, I would say that another expansion is, at the most, 2 years away. But really, I’m thinking that a year away is just as likely.

Not sure where you’re getting that stuff about A-net sucking up to NCsoft? Really, the relationship between the two has been distant and healthy for the past several months. (Notice the lack of the NCsoft trademark on recent releases/announcements)

Finally, that is a mighty extreme accusation about the druid being trash without Heal.P. We don’t know any numbers yet, but you are already jumping to conclusions? Maybe you should roll a revanent. Clearly you don’t enjoy what the Ranger (and by impied extention, the Druid) has to offer.

Not to say history isn’t important (it is), but I’d take critical thinking over history any day.

I enjoyed ranger’s style of playing, that’s why I played ranger.
I also enjoyed the new pet

However, Druid is Druid, and I do not like the direction they’re going to make Druid be.
The lack of defensive boons and the reliance of staff is troubling too. Furthermore, Irene’s direction of nerfing non-healing stat is like cutting all diversity on Druid. If all the good stuffs of Druids are going to be taken away, while all the bad stuffs (Staff, Glyphs, Astral meter mechanic) is going to remain the same, then yes, it is a class I would not be enjoying and like to move on.

Ireno said he is going to try to make the staff less of a necessity, and more of a suggestion. Again, we can’t jump to conclusions. Who knows? Maybe the addition of better healing power scaling will make our current heals scale even past what they are currently?

You say that you are thinking that you are going to move on from the Druid class…but Druid isn’t a class — it’s a single specialization of a profession. Isn’t that a tad bit dramatic?

Bring back the Bunnythumper! xD

Aomine.5012:

Razor.9872:

Ehecatl.9172:

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

There’ll be more supportive damage for Celestial Avatar by launch… possibly from trait modifications or from skill changes.

An issue which should not be decoupled here is that Celestial Avatar felt gated behind staff use (and troll unguent), which left a ranger with one damage-focused weapon option and one support weapon. I’m making some changes to astral force rate gain to try to address this. Ideally it should be possible to build up your astral force without -needing- to run staff, but running staff should speed up the process by nature of the heals it provides. This would yield the option of running two non-staff weapons while still having Celestial Avatar available.

Celestial Avatar healing is the best available by a decent margin right now. One issue that came up is that the healing coefficients are so insignificant that running with healing stats yields very little reward.

The best healing in the game being available without using any healing power; this is not good for the game.

The berserker meta not be the only consideration requires that other stat combinations be rewarding.

Being able to run two more damage-focused weapons (if that’s your thing) and still have Celestial Avatar available should address some of your offensive concerns if you want to play a bit more offensively as a hybrid. If you want to focus on being the top offense then you probably shouldn’t be selecting the Druid specialization.

That’s all I’m going to say on the subject for now (though I will continue to read constructive feedback here and elsewhere) as there is plenty to be done in order to address these and other issues. /me ducks back to work on Scrapper and Druid.

I am glad that Celestial Avatar is getting more damage, which may alleviate some of my following concerns, but I can’t stress enough how important it is that Celestial Avatar remains a valuable mechanic without any healing investment at all.

I fully understand and support the notion that to have the best healing you should have to invest in healing power. It’s only logical. However the fact Celestial Avatar is so completely devoted to healing means that if you lower the base healing of the skills too much the form will be outright useless to anyone without healing power on their gear. Celestial Avatar is a class mechanic and is not optional if you spec into druid. It would be a shame for it to only have value if you’re sporting healing power.

Like I said in my first paragraph, adding more damage to the Avatar State may alleviate some of my concerns as a more damage oriented build could compensate for lower healing in exchange for the ability to pressure people off them as they heal up more slowly. I just don’t want to see this mechanic make you weaker than base if you try to use it without the right stat spread.

No one should spec into druid for the glyphs, Ancient Seeds, or other abilities and find Celestial Avatar useless to their build.

If you are playing the Ranger profession for damage, you should not spec into Druid. That’s like saying you’re trying to get warmer, so you take your clothes off.

True, Druid will be the only elite specialization avaliable to Rangers at the start, but we will get more down the road.

In 3 years. (chuckle)
History is really good to study.

I’m not even sure this game will survive until next expansion = next specialization come out. Not being mean or anything, just feeling like their Korean boss are getting upset about the revenue and stuff.

Anyway, if I have to wait another 3 years for ranger to become better than a pigeon-holed class (the only support class that need stat investment or it becomes trash), I’d probably go main Revenant instead.

That is a rather pessimistic/negative outlook :\

You have to look at the bigger picture. The reason it took 3 years for this expansion, is because A-net was still unsure about their planned development and release model. Coupled with them still getting their base game/structure together, they had little room for the concept of an expansion. However, now that these types of releases are on the table, I would say that another expansion is, at the most, 2 years away. But really, I’m thinking that a year away is just as likely.

Not sure where you’re getting that stuff about A-net sucking up to NCsoft? Really, the relationship between the two has been distant and healthy for the past several months. (Notice the lack of the NCsoft trademark on recent releases/announcements)

Finally, that is a mighty extreme accusation about the druid being trash without Heal.P. We don’t know any numbers yet, but you are already jumping to conclusions? Maybe you should roll a revanent. Clearly you don’t enjoy what the Ranger (and by impied extention, the Druid) has to offer.

Not to say history isn’t important (it is), but I’d take critical thinking over history any day.

chronometria.3708:

The elite specs should be able to work with several playstyles, with the talents tailoring them to whatever style your character works best with. The necro reaper, for example, can work for a condition based style, or a power based one, or even a hybrid of the two, allowing all sorts of necromancers to pick it up without having to change their specs too much.

The Druid is apparently only good for people who want to heal and heal super well. People simply want it to offer build diversity, so that people who are primarily dps can take it and, say, concentrate on the control aspect rather than the healing one. Or heck, give it an ability to do a little healing whenever it does damage and people would probably be ok with that.

Using your same example, could you say Reaper is supposed to be able to fill a group healing role as well? Understand that elite specializations are just that — specializations. More will come down the road that will allow for other aspects of playstyle. But please don’t expect every specialization to be potentially good at everything. That is just unreasonable in my opinion.

Ehecatl.9172:

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

There’ll be more supportive damage for Celestial Avatar by launch… possibly from trait modifications or from skill changes.

An issue which should not be decoupled here is that Celestial Avatar felt gated behind staff use (and troll unguent), which left a ranger with one damage-focused weapon option and one support weapon. I’m making some changes to astral force rate gain to try to address this. Ideally it should be possible to build up your astral force without -needing- to run staff, but running staff should speed up the process by nature of the heals it provides. This would yield the option of running two non-staff weapons while still having Celestial Avatar available.

Celestial Avatar healing is the best available by a decent margin right now. One issue that came up is that the healing coefficients are so insignificant that running with healing stats yields very little reward.

The best healing in the game being available without using any healing power; this is not good for the game.

The berserker meta not be the only consideration requires that other stat combinations be rewarding.

Being able to run two more damage-focused weapons (if that’s your thing) and still have Celestial Avatar available should address some of your offensive concerns if you want to play a bit more offensively as a hybrid. If you want to focus on being the top offense then you probably shouldn’t be selecting the Druid specialization.

That’s all I’m going to say on the subject for now (though I will continue to read constructive feedback here and elsewhere) as there is plenty to be done in order to address these and other issues. /me ducks back to work on Scrapper and Druid.

I am glad that Celestial Avatar is getting more damage, which may alleviate some of my following concerns, but I can’t stress enough how important it is that Celestial Avatar remains a valuable mechanic without any healing investment at all.

I fully understand and support the notion that to have the best healing you should have to invest in healing power. It’s only logical. However the fact Celestial Avatar is so completely devoted to healing means that if you lower the base healing of the skills too much the form will be outright useless to anyone without healing power on their gear. Celestial Avatar is a class mechanic and is not optional if you spec into druid. It would be a shame for it to only have value if you’re sporting healing power.

Like I said in my first paragraph, adding more damage to the Avatar State may alleviate some of my concerns as a more damage oriented build could compensate for lower healing in exchange for the ability to pressure people off them as they heal up more slowly. I just don’t want to see this mechanic make you weaker than base if you try to use it without the right stat spread.

No one should spec into druid for the glyphs, Ancient Seeds, or other abilities and find Celestial Avatar useless to their build.

If you are playing the Ranger profession for damage, you should not spec into Druid. That’s like saying you’re trying to get warmer, so you take your clothes off.

True, Druid will be the only elite specialization avaliable to Rangers at the start, but we will get more down the road.

I don’t understand how this is a problem. Personally, I find it to be a feature.

Ranger is actually one of the top picks for dps atm…Spotter + Frost Spirit + Glyph of Empowerment = win.

All. Of. My. Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.

This thread man…this thread.

I know marksmanship is in there somewhere for the Moment of Clearity trait. Besides that, I’m unsure myself.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNBmYD7kSFokFsiVwkVgoVsMLYwB0D6C1Zqd1yaPBg6036kjdjVA-TxxDABM8AAIUJYlq/80+DXp8DgLAAe6AIFA2StA-e

I agree. Personally, I would have preferred the barrier to basically be a “defiance stance” for projectiles which pass through it. Keeping the damage>healing of the projectiles would make the skills a lot riskier to ignore, but still keep the skill counter-playable.

The glyphs are lacking in general, imo.

John Corpening told me that boxed copies of HoT will likely be avaliable after HoT’s launch.

Ragnarox.9601:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Pre-patch there were builds out there that would stack every buff imaginable on their pet to do massive damage. Someone made a video where they were one-shotting people with the drake in WvW.

It might not be the patch. Are you sure you weren’t fighting one of these builds?

I dont know but he oneshotted me 4 times in pvp match with my aegis on. So stupid.

So when they are gonna buff guardians dmg to do 10k mightyblows and ww in pvp? it’s about time to do that to be on pair with other classes.

You mean he 2-4 shot you? Noone can one-shot with aegis…

Dradiin.8935:

LOL so much for the statement that the Zerk Meta is unsustainable.

Time will tell

Tapioca.9062:

mtpelion.4562:

Bryzy.2719:

mtpelion.4562:

The problem with healers is that in order to make them useful, you have to make them mandatory. If you make them mandatory, then you have just recreated the holy trinity. The LACK of a holy trinity was a main selling point (and the best part about) this game.

ArenaNet is going backwards by adding antique game content rather than developing new things and going forward. Raids, trinity, expansions, these are all the wrong direction for the game.

At this point it’s important to note that we can’t say for certain whether Anet has created a need for dedicated healers in PvE content until we play it.

I disagree completely that raids, trinity and expansions are the wrong direction for the game, but that’s just me.

There are plenty of games already out there that offer those things. We bought this game because it didn’t.

So yes, it is the wrong direction for this game.

The fact that you prefer it to go in the wrong direction, notwithstanding.

Exactly this. If I’d wanted to play a game with raids and dedicated healers, I would have bought WoW.

No one is forcing you to play the raids. Furthermore, healers are very unlikely to be needed anywhere besides these raids and higher lvl fractals. The option just exists for those who do want it.

Girion.5483:

That healers are not mandatory in this game is an extremely good thing, especially when party formation is concerned. Should this game change in a way where healers are suddenly necessary, we’re looking at “LFG super monster raid 8/10, need healers” and the party is waiting … and waiting … and waiting until someone fills these spots, just to have people shout at them “WTF, why didn’t you save my kitten”.

No, thanks.

But we already see this in a different form…

“Exp 80’s only need warrior/guardian/ele no rangers/engi’s/necros — full zerk bring food”

I’d argue just needing “healers” is a lot less specific.

I know it is still early to tell, but I was wondering what stat(s) could work best with Druid. For me, it is going to be either Clerics, Apothicary, or Zealot. I think I’m leaning a bit more towards an Apothicary staff/axe-WH setup myself. My reasoning being:

Druid puts out somewhat consistant debilitating condi’s, which would be good to have condi – duration foods/misc. stuff on to boost. At the same time, this would mean one would be getting a large boost to potential condition damage while giving the debilitating condi’s a chance to stick if other condi’s are there to get in the way. Also, condi damage output is really easy to increase, while power takes at least 2 stats to be really effective. And Zealot gear is pricy :\

But at the same time, there are many skills that would benefit greatly from having higher power. So I’m kinda in-decision…

I’ll be sure to try all 3 this upcoming beta.

Unfortunately, I seriously doubt we will get anything like that remotely anytime soon :\

This trait needs to be better. It has the game’s logo, after all :P

I think this idea would be a powerful tool for the community. +1

umskiptar.5641:

God, that’s bad.

Well, thanks for clearing that up for me. Doubtful it will ever change either after 3 years….

Although the game itself does not support alternat keybinds, there are plenty of keyboards that allow for key template customization.

It’s…possible…but it would be mearly an illusion of looking at you. The camera is not treated as an object of interest for characters, so they will never look at “you” directly.

What if legendary armor could remember each rune that had been put into it, and allow you to select from that list? Of course, this would be individual for each piece.

Druid. Hands down.