Guild Wars 2

daydream.2938:

Actually satercomny. Mesmers are good at fighting power dps. warriors/thiefs. 1on1. But they can really struggle vs alot of other things. And they go kinda evenish vs alot of things like engies. But newer players, ie the ones you run into in hotjoin just get totally confused and owned by mesmers.

Yeah we do beat warriors and 60% of the time can beat thiefs but they are the 2 worst classes in the game https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/SAtaarcoeny-s-balance-view/first

HPDoomcraft.2573:

Great Read.
I love playing my Mesmer even if they might be underpowered just as I am sure you love playing a Mesmer considering you’re apparently the best in the world at it lol.

yeah if i didnt love mesmer so much then i definatley wouldnt play it i would be playing ranger. its the same with hman and his warrior. and its the reason we get so mad at anet. instead of them actually testing numbers and usefulness they just read the forums. (biggest lol ever) but they dont read the informed forums just the joke ones.

but i remember you asking me about mesmer yesterday but the game crashed and i couldnt get back in. i will msg you when i got on later today to talk about mesmer.

mesmers are better in team fights then in 1v1. you just have to be very slippery.

in 1v1 they are not tough. they are just able to last a bit before they die if they get lucky with all there distortion coll downs.

glad someone else posted this. i was going to post this question but i think im on a dev do not reply list.

i hope this gets answered because being the greatest i am looking forward to what we get.

Mrbig.8019:

Follidus.8027:

lilz shorty.1879:

I didn’t make it about 1v1s but someone else brought it up. I literally didn’t even mention it until someone else did replying to me. The counter comp or OP comp will not win lol. I’m sorry I disagree completely. Outplaying/outsmarting them is how you win every match as well as winning your own skirmishes. Certain classes are only better then other classes at certain aspects of the game and that’s fine. Just because that’s the case doesn’t mean it’s imbalanced. Doesn’t make a class inferior. Somethings needed to be fixed and most have. Not to the extent people want.

Yay someone gets it, just because you lose to something new for a day doesn’t mean there isn’t a way to win!

The point is when that “new stuff” cannot be counterplayed by the comp, but can only be overcome with SKILL.

This goes into a cycle where you assume the “cheese comp” will always be less skilled than those playing the “other comp”.

Well, it’s not always the case: you have to assume both teams are on an equal skill level and then balance accordingly.

Simply because you can overcome something “somehow”, it doesn’t mean it’s balanced.

Otherwise i can’t really understand all the fuss about stuff lik svanir’s rune bug, mace block bug or shattered strenght pre-nerf.

Current meta is obviously cheese based , eles are ruining the game, the problem surely is not trap rangers and “projectile reflections” lack in meta builds.

yes that is one big feeling i have always had and has led to my 3 1 class allowed in match topics. we always feel like we are the underdog and it shouldnt feel that way. we should be on a even ground to start.

obviously we can overcome the hardships this game has put against us like all the bug and exploits and the unknowingly making some classes so op. but we shouldnt have to overcome the deficit of the balance and bugs and then on top of that we then have to totaly out play them. it just doesnt logically make sense.

make it so you can only have 1 class allowed then it will make sense

xtra.3968:

will the ratings be reset on this new patch or will our rating be the one since the previous patch?

no the ratings will not be reset again. they already told us they wont.

if for some reason they do get reset all the people that played this month for this rating will be upset (yes me)

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Options that we have working internally, so far, include:
Name
Password
Message of the Day
Max Players
Minimum Players
Respawn Time
Score Limit
Team Size
Time Limit
Respawn Type (Wave or Individual)
Autobalance Toggle
Lock Gear Toggle
Lock Skills Toggle
Ready Button Toggle
Spectators Toggle
No Stats Toggle
Map selection

It’s really nice to hear that, you made my day Tyler

Anyway, I have to point out something that worries me a lot: rank points in custom will be the same that on hot-join for example?
Because if the answer is affirmative we will have a problem with people farming PvP ranks on their private servers with friends/guildies.

i play this game to beat ppl not get glory ranks. i couldnt fathom going into one of these with ppl saying “ok now we get on node, ok now you get on node” for days at a time. i maybe have 30 min of actual hotjoin play out of my 3k hours on this game. there might be a few ppl that abuse it but i dont think the majority will.

Kardiamond.6952:

@Zaqq

What? Mesmer the hardest?

Engineer say Hi.

And balance shouldn’t revolve around skill cap. I play my engineer because it’s a high cap class and a multikit have a lot to micro manage/time. I never get bored during a fight. But I don’t play my class to be more powerful.

If you balance the game around that, any competitive team will only play the most complicated class to have a higher skill cap. That wouldn’t be a good thing.

By the way, I was pretty bored and was looking at the survey. Am I the only one that saw that?

i cant stop laughing
best attachment ever

i just watched the SOTG again to be clear about the leaderbords and they explained it very clear not once but twice so now i understand for sure.

PowerBottom.5796:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

i explained it twice already. but again. if you portal something weak into something strong then the weak thing still dies.

if you just pop the portal then the mesmer is out of the fight for 90 seconds.

after talking with kaypud and java before pz came back the last time they all agreed with me that mesmer was aweful. and you even said it in your stream that there is way better classes to back point because they can actually win the fight. correct?

I’m kinda baffled about your strategic understanding of how to use a Portal, because your Points are valid, but a good Mesmer in a good Team can easily find a way around those Situations and the lack of a Portal has much more negative Aspects (on most Maps).

First of all, you don’t need to Port the Mesmer back necessarily, but you can choose the best possible composition to go defend (or attack when used offensively), restrained only by what Chars are near the Portals. In a game where you have Chars that can hold points against multiple Opponents and Matchups that often favour one Char or one composition of Chars, you can often create favourable Situations very quickly.

Another Point is, that good Mesmers won’t use the Portal if it’s not necessary and leave a fight (if they aren’t completely necessary and winning that fight he’s in would be more important than defending a Point) to walk back to the Point they are Portalguarding, greatly diminishing the recast of the Portal. The most important Skill in terms of strategic understanding of the Game of a Mesmer is knowing when he can walk away from a fight, for the sole reason of not having to Pop the Portal. If you have this Skill, you can reduce the time spent out of combat and even do it in a way, where this lesser time spent out of combat, is executed in situations where the Mesmer isn’t necessary for a favourable outcome of the Match. This could mean you can hold or decap a Point without the Mesmer or you can loose a certain fight and maybe loose a node, but still be fine with it overall.

There are some very useful Plays you can do only with a Portal that will enable you to cap Nodes, where it would be almost impossible otherwise, by creating favourable Situations for your Team in both Number of Players and favourable Composition. Take this Situation for example:

You’re on the Forest with a “normal” Setup (3 more offensiv Chars, 2 more defensive) and the opponent has 2 Nodes. You leave 1 defensive Char at your node and try to run to the opponents Node (guarded by 2-3 Players). If you can do that undetected (invis ftw.) you have a good Chance to have created a Situation that favours your Team, which forces the opponent to send support, pop Portals etc. The smart part is, that while running to the opponents Point, your Mesmer dropped a hidden Portal in the Middle. If you can’t cap their homenode (which should have favoured your Team), you just w8 for the reinforcement of the opponent to arrive there and w8 for the opponents Portal-Exit to run out. Now you pop your Portal and your Team of 4 is at the Middle, creating another highly favourable Situation for you.

Tell me how you can decap anything against an equally skilled team with 2 Nodes and a Mesmer keeping the 2 Nodes connected, without having a Portal yourself? There is no way, because even if your Team is better in Teamfights, it’s not better if the opponent can freely rearrange the number of Players and the composition.

There are some smart ways of dealing with Portals, but they often require specific Builds (trapper to counter Portals) and they still don’t mean you cannot run a Portal yourself, because Portal is so versatile, that it cannot be “hard-countered” (which means doing sth. that simply makes the Portal useless).

But I’d have to agree with you, that good Teams (like the Top-5 Teams of each region), can win against any other Team thats not in the Top-5, without running a Portal. This is because the Skill-Gap between the Top-Teams and the Rest is huge and because the strategical understanding and possibilities of the game (not only considering the Portal, but in general), is simply not that high yet, even in Top-Teams. (This is mostly because of lack of highly skilled opposition and because the game is still kinda young).

i do understand how to use the portal perfect and that is probably the only thing keeping me from going ranger. its just so frustrating that portal is what makes a mesmer anything. i would rather get class buffs and lose portal to be honest because portal just isnt worth being so bad.

remember im not looking at this from my POV but from every other mesmer i see in the game. when we see another mesmer we just laugh and it shouldnt be that way. i want to fear every class.

Yasha.5963:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Yasha.5963:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

So after watching the SOTG and hearing that balance was done by listening to the forums had me confused? i had to watch it a second time to make sure it wasn’t a joke.

I think balance should be done based off of whats important in this game; and in this game its point control:
Capping,
Holding,
Neutralizing,
(Team fights/1v1 contribute to the top 3)

Ok I’ll have a go:

Ele (10/10) for the reasons you mentioned.

Guardian (9/10): a well played guard can keep on a point, stop it from being taken against 2 players for long enough for help to come (ie great at 2 of your 3 points)

Necro (8.5/10): rez is a game changer, good at any three of your points.

Engineer (8/10): can be great at holding a point or as a roamer looking for the instant kill. KBs/nets/turrets etc are great for point control

Ranger (8/10): Trap ranger is good at defending a point 1vs1 but not 2vs1. Also not as powerful at attacking point. Other ranger builds are surprisingly good, people are just fixated on trap ranger. I would say BM or full dps build would be 7 or 8/10 depending on the make up of the other team.

Thief (8/10): Great at capping/backcapping, amazing burst and stomping abilities can change a fight. A caltrops build can keep a point neutralized against 2 players almost indefinately (depending on other builds).

Mesmer (8/10): again depending on build, but offers amazing team mobility through portal, and amazing burst or survivability again relevant to all three of your points.

Warrior (7.5/10): can have great mobility for capping fast, has great team synergy and can apply huge and powerful aoe damage, absolutely devistating when paired with good cc class like engi. Slightly behind the other classes overall on your criteria.

i think you might be forgetting to compare each class to all the other 8 in every different genre. the best at whatever you are judging should get more points and then less and less for each class below that. then you add all the points after every category and then you give the final score.

I find each class to be pretty even across the criteria you have set, as reflected in my scores. Guardians and eles stand out because they are the best node holders/neutralizers, while eles pull ahead because they have incredible mobility as well (for taking backpoint/reinforcing team).

There is no way that warrior can get a 3 and ranger a 9, for example. I think you are just being melodramatic and attention seeking. Of course it sounds way cooler to say that there are these huge balance issues in the game, but when it comes down to it each class shines in its own way even under your criteria for what balance should be judged on in tpvp.

Both ranger and ele were seen as the weakest classes in tpvp at one point, but now despite being nerfed (ranger at least) they are rated as the strongest. I think this demonstrates that any lack of balance is small and needs only slight adjustment, not the total overhaul your ratings suggest. In fact perhaps nerfing warriors would be the way to go-it worked for ranger after all.

well when they nerf one class then buff the other class it makes a big difference. thats why my old posts used to say buff the classes until they are even. but they instead nerfed so hard and slightly buffed the others and now were in the mess were in.

Verisuvalise.3615:

I’m not sure how relevant this is,
but I was in a tourny earlier today, where I ran into a guardian.
Now, I consider myself a relatively capable player and can usually go most games without dying and still perform for my team.
I play d/p mostly, and my Shadow Shot hits [most] targets for around 1200.
Against this guardian, I was hitting 800s consistently, no weakness
And this is fine.
However, at the same time, the first time I engaged him I was killed almost instantly. I had never seen this sort of damage before from a guardian at all, especially with that sort of mitigation.
I engaged him a second time, and while I was more careful and acute, preventing myself from going down for the duration of the encounter (although there where many spikes where I could’ve lost it with another hit) I still couldn’t bring him below 60%.
I can usually 1v1 most classes. Other thieves seem to be my biggest problem, but the arbitrary difficulty of bunker ele’s is completely lost on me — I either run s/d offhand or Bountiful Theft to steal boons and they are a walk in the park.

This guardian was different. And while I wish I had more evidence to provide you, this was in the middle of a heated match. This particular guardian stuck to his treb like glue the whole game and I only engaged him the 2 times. The first ended because I died almost instantly, and the second because a teammate came to assist him so I bailed.

I believe Guardians are more deserving of a higher rating.

Also. Thief should be higher than Mes.
Infiltrator’s Arrow is the best mobility skill in the game, no question.
Depending on the map (and most maps, it’s absolutely favoured) IA can have you moving around faster than any other class could ever possibly achieve.
This is counter-balanced by how much damage Thieves take, yes.
But that is counter-balanced by our flexible access to stealth / dodge mechanics.
Which is also counter-balanced to node-capping, and how stealth / dodging hinders it.

Overall, I think well-played thieves on an appropriate map deserve no less than 7.5, the perma-poison/weakness single target with d/p, the AoE bleed/poison/weakness with sb, boon removal, traited AoE team boons on steal, so many team bonuses a thief provides, I don’t believe the squishiness truly emancipates us from that tier of professions.

i told morfeus that i do want to see his dps guardian in action against all the top players in the classes and then the score could go up. depending on time it can kill classes compared to other classes.

i am so happy latley.

there was a post on the forums stating maps would be rotated twice a week. Yes we all know it didnt happen but i was happy at least you guys tried and told us you wanted to do it. also the community showed a lot of maturity by not freaking out on Anet so keep that in mind in the future.

now anet says leaderboreds (MIGHT) be up this week. that is awesome and a great way to give us information without being freaked out on if it doesnt happen. great job anet please keep this type of communication open.

now since i said ty and this conversation might lead somewere let me push my luck and see if you can give us some maybes on this

Incentive to play : PVP players like bragging rights, so we need to make sure the rating system has what it needs. here is what i think it needs. Win loss record, Maps win loss record, Visible in all 3 categories by clicking on a person. We need there to be 6 seasons a year. At the end of every 2 month season the ratings are reset. 1 month is to short, we want to have pride and brag about what we achieved. 3 months is to long because if we mess up we want a restart that is the way people think. Now for each season we want titles for the top 50 players and new skins for the top 20 players and new weapon set for the top 10 players. Lastly the top 5 players of the previous season names on the wall of champions for all 3 categories. (of coarse the numbers might change in 6 months when we get more people.)

Yasha.5963:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

So after watching the SOTG and hearing that balance was done by listening to the forums had me confused? i had to watch it a second time to make sure it wasn’t a joke.

I think balance should be done based off of whats important in this game; and in this game its point control:
Capping,
Holding,
Neutralizing,
(Team fights/1v1 contribute to the top 3)

Ok I’ll have a go:

Ele (10/10) for the reasons you mentioned.

Guardian (9/10): a well played guard can keep on a point, stop it from being taken against 2 players for long enough for help to come (ie great at 2 of your 3 points)

Necro (8.5/10): rez is a game changer, good at any three of your points.

Engineer (8/10): can be great at holding a point or as a roamer looking for the instant kill. KBs/nets/turrets etc are great for point control

Ranger (8/10): Trap ranger is good at defending a point 1vs1 but not 2vs1. Also not as powerful at attacking point. Other ranger builds are surprisingly good, people are just fixated on trap ranger. I would say BM or full dps build would be 7 or 8/10 depending on the make up of the other team.

Thief (8/10): Great at capping/backcapping, amazing burst and stomping abilities can change a fight. A caltrops build can keep a point neutralized against 2 players almost indefinately (depending on other builds).

Mesmer (8/10): again depending on build, but offers amazing team mobility through portal, and amazing burst or survivability again relevant to all three of your points.

Warrior (7.5/10): can have great mobility for capping fast, has great team synergy and can apply huge and powerful aoe damage, absolutely devistating when paired with good cc class like engi. Slightly behind the other classes overall on your criteria.

i think you might be forgetting to compare each class to all the other 8 in every different genre. the best at whatever you are judging should get more points and then less and less for each class below that. then you add all the points after every category and then you give the final score.

Archer Henchman.2534:

Who cares about whether or not he has pride or not?

If you perform an analysis of development strategies across competitive games and determine which type of balancing technique was more successful at retaining and growing a playerbase, Davinci’s answer is undisputably correct. Not all games that balance with the competitive scene in mind become successes, but the majority of successes balance with the competitive scene in mind. Why is that?

Well, its pretty simple:

Balance is less important when there is a larger field of viable options. When you are a mediocre player, you can do things which aren’t viable competitively and come out as a winner. Because the relative ‘field’ of strategies which can win over inferior opponents is larger, accordingly there are less metagame related bottlenecks.

Additionally, the object of a non-competitive gamer is not to improve, and therefore win. Its generally to enjoy the process of playing. However, this type of engagement with the game leads players to stop playing once the fun value of novelty wears off. Competitive players are not motivated by the fun of novelty. They are motivated by the fun of mastery. Mastery, by contrast, allows for communities to have longstanding pillars of knowledge, as players who stay for mastery tend to play more, and play with the objective of understanding the game, rather than doing stupid kitten which is fun.

It may be annoying that certain things exist within your game at lower levels, but without the longevity provided by competitive players, you rarely get decent stream viewership, tournament prize pools, community produced content, etc. The transition of a player between the casual and competitive phase isn’t done based upon whether or not a game was ‘fun’, either. It is done based on whether or not a game is ‘competition worthy’. The players who still PvE intensely, if you look at the cross-section of desires and complaints that they have, all show signs of playing competitively for decorative features. Players getting angry that they couldn’t get their unbreakable bell, or that they wasted a month of laurels, or that they didn’t have full access to the guild-mission content, etc.

If those players played for non-competitive fun, they wouldn’t mind that pre-buff dragon chests dropped kitten. They would be thinking “wow, dragon fights look kittening cool”. They don’t.

So, since ‘competitive’ players have additional motivation to stay with your game, YOU CATER TO THEM. Their friends who have only a casual attachment to the game end up joining because they like the network effects related to socialization and the novelty of the game, etc.

GW2’s PvE has been developed with competition in mind. Look at the amount of unbreakables, the scaling and gating on fractals, the unlocking process for guild missions, etc. GW2’s Pvp has been developed without competition in mind. You can see which segment of the playerbase has vanished, and it should be entirely predictable based upon the case-studies of previous games why that is.

DANG, facts pulled out. sounds like the truth IMO.

Archer Henchman.2534:

DevilsGlare.7658:

@Archer Henchman
You sir, make my e-sports/gaming panties wet.
Educated, intelligent, and thorough. I love reading your insight.

No kitten

I’m really happy to hear this from you.

Since you were in one of two teams that used to give us issues, I watched your play intensely for a long while to figure out a solution. You had, out of every player in the game, the best timing to leave fights. You’d dip and get out with 5% hp reliably, which was infurating. Ele might have been strong, but your slipperiness maximized its effectiveness and made it difficult to pressure you out of your setups, which let hman overextend into our backline without much worry.

You’re actually one of the players who’s footage let me think about GW2 in terms of pressure. The notion of pressure became really common in GW1 around the time that eles started taking rodgort and R/W thumpers became a thing, but no one really saw effectiveness in team fights as net damage output in GW2 because people were focused on thinking about what killed them rather than what set them up for a kill. I think the downed state mechanics led people astray in their analysis on that point. Who gives a kitten if you can res if you’re going to lose 80% of your hp to do it, then promptly go back down? The other was powerr on necro. I shifted heavily to shortbow because of what I saw from your play.

Its kind of a shame that I didn’t bother saying any of this when I saw a future for the game. Nuts.

this game still has a future. and i to enjoy reading your posts on here. i wish i could write as good as you.

Ostricheggs.3742:

I really disagree with your assessment of engis as well as the ranking. Personally I think they’re the best class in the game, but a point holder/neuter? As an HGH nade engi that’s hardly the case. In every single fight I implement one form of kiting or another and depend on LOS to survive for as long as I do. The last thing I want to do is try and hold a point. That’s not the job of a condi engi. Even mesmers do a better job at that. We only have, lengthy CD stun break to keep us up.

But like I said, I believe engis are the best class in the game. Just not at point holding or neuting (if they’re not bunkers, that’s another story).

i do also think engis are extremley good right now. but without the holding and neuting as wwell as some the others then there score has to come down a little.

i really like how there is a pure gib build. a great condi build and a great bunker build. and i had to score them on all 3 seperate which is why engi was my favorite class to judge. i feel that every class should be like engi and if it becomes that way then games wont be so obvious.

for example when i play against good guy chaith i never know what to expect.

Synti.6142:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Synti.6142:

Elemantlist, Engineer, Guardian is top 3 class in this game.Thief, Mesmer and Warrior are still far too low in their comparative ratings.

what about ranger and necro were do you place them?

imo, ranger is a little high but okay, necro is like what you say.

@waka: believe it or not, engi is top class now, since hiba create the condi burst build. if you have no boons removal, its hard to fight against them.

the reason i rated the ranger higher then the engi is because the elite is so much better. and the speed rez and speed stomps are so good. everything else they were pretty much even.

LonelyReaper.8075:

@SAtaarcoeny:
Can you take a look and see if thief can excel in a spvp using this build.
Build: ( http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAqa8YlcmaPHfS5E+5Ex2jemTey9wpGtpdkittenA;T4Ag0CooqxUjoGbNuak1ssYQxJktIvQmiA )(Acrobatic 10 points with trait II and knight jewel may be missing)
This build has a give a thief the ability to stay in fight longer and provide more pressure forcing players off the nodes. I originally build this build to counter bunker trap ranger and their endless kiting, dodging and healing. This lets the thief excel in range bombardment(P/P #3 unload) from the sideline, presuring players in the middle of the combat zone. Lot of healing + condi removal and good repositioning ability with invi, lots of in combat mobility with sword, steal and infiltrator signet. I personally am able to take down bunkers alone with sword/dagger stripping boons(S/D #3 Flanking Strike) and dealing high melee dmg while able to avoid lots of aoe and ability to disengage when things get ugly. I think this build will bring a asset to the team in team fights and stand-in node person. With healing and strong cc from sword(coming out of stealth backstab) and high dps can force a bunker off the node for some heal or able to contest the node till reinforcement is here.
Downside to this build is that the thief loses it’s out of combat mobility.

What do you think, will this build able to be useful to the team in spvp?

any build can be good if played right but the main problem is the invis.

last week me and davinchi was practicing with him on an ele with vexeus’s build and everytime we played against a thief we would wait to see if they was going to pressure back node all game and if they did davinchi would just come back and 1v1 them and some were really tanky but reguardless he would always cap on them really fast.

but i will get a guy to test this build out and see for sure.

remember everything can eventually kill a bunker guard but it comes down to the time cost efficiency, and points per minute.

i dont see this build being able to outplay the other classes in either killing and keeping a point long enough to gain your team more points then the other classes can.

(but we are going to try it out) also can you send me a private msg with a new link this one is not working for me.

PowerBottom.5796:

If you basically only take everything that accounts for Node-Control into your equation, I don’t understand why you rate the Mesmer so low, because the Portal is the most important and best Skill in this regard:

1) It allows you to not have Players on 1 Point (or even 2, if you run 2 Mesmers) defending it all the time to keep it safe.
2) It allows you to defend 1 Point instantly with the right amount of Players, making it harder to collapse on a Point.
3) You can use it both offensively and defensively.

No other class comes even close to matching that Potential.

i explained it twice already. but again. if you portal something weak into something strong then the weak thing still dies.

if you just pop the portal then the mesmer is out of the fight for 90 seconds.

now if your saying that the portal makes the mesmer good because he can get back to a node and die then that is wrong.

if your saying you can commit 5 ppl to a mid fight because you dont have to worry about back node? well most 5v5 fights take longer then 60 seconds so then the portal is out of the question anyway because its gone. so 1 min into the fight we send an ele to go back cap. now the mesmer was even more useless.

after talking with kaypud and java before pz came back the last time they all agreed with me that mesmer was aweful. and you even said it in your stream that there is way better classes to back point because they can actually win the fight. correct?

Braxxus.2904:

Larynx.2453:

Braxxus.2904:

forrae.6708:

balance for the pros/top 1%/whatever and the balance trickles down for everyone else.

simple.

Trickle down economics has never worked, does not work, and will not ever work.
It’s a myth, no it’s just a blatant lie, that some people have been suckered into believing.
In the end all you’ll be left with is that 1% player base as the other 99% say kitten this and leave. Then the 1% can complain about how there’s no population.

Video games are not real world economics, and it works for SC2.

Same principles apply.
The game needs to support a pyramid scaling to maintain a healthy population.
Without a healthy middle class there is no population for the top 1% to stand upon, game fails.

You don’t balance for the bottom 1% either, and that’s something the elitists need to remember. No one is calling for the game to be balanced around the enjoyment of the most terrible of terribads (and chances are the elitists aren’t even anywhere near as good as they think they are anyways). You do want to balance around the enjoyment of the ‘average’ player. The guy that isn’t terrible, but isn’t super 1337 ‘pro’ gamer god of hyrule either. The average guy realizes that HB isn’t OP because it’s super telegraphed, rendered obsolete by a dodge or stunbreak and that warriors are pretty much the bottom of the food chain because of how terribly they’re designed (for example), even if he’s not on the tip top pvp team of ungodly godhood.

If you have an ability to press x and 1-shot a guy, but it can be countered by the opponent pressing yvp10F3+F4+space and spinning his camera 360 degrees which then puts the x-presser into a state of self-cc the top 1% will probably macro it or be good enough to do so, however this does not mean the ability is not stupid and OP overall causing a decline in the enjoyment factor of the majority of players.

but you have to understand the point of this thread.

for example i would not ask many of you how to run any of the companies i have or have had because you clearly wouldnt know how they work and your advice clearly would only make my companies worse. so that being said i would ask ppl with experience and ppl that have succeeded for advice (which i did).

most of you guys actually dont know how this game works infact most of you dont even play this game like it is conquest. you go from 1 point to the next in a group and then when a warrior comes in and kills u all you say hes op?

that is all davinchi is trying to say. learn how to play the game before you have an input on the game.

davinchi yes was a little mean about it and if it was me i would have worded it a little different so here i go

post title : if all you play is hotjoin…..

post: then you probably dont understand the game type the devs made so can you please keep your unacknowledged comments off the forums because they might take them litteral. but if you want hotjoin as a competitive scene please feel free to make a thread asking for it but make sure to ask for seperate nerfs and buffs for that game mode alone because the real game and hotjoin nowere near reflect eachother. and if you ever get hotjoin competitve we promise never to come to your forums and pretend to know what needs buffs and nerfs because we will have no idea.

Mrbig.8019:

when did this thread became ego wars ?

@lilz

this game is not about 1vs1

I can beat trap rangers as a THIEF, this doesn’t mean a thief is better than a ranger in conquest fight ( especially on khylo).

it seems you’re not understanding saatar point: there’s always a way to beat an OP class, beating an OP comp is another story, because you need to OUTPLAY them.

being able to win against an OP comp doesn’t mean that those classes are not OP, simply it means you’ve played better than them: but when you’re on an even SKILL FIELD, the most OP comp ( or the counter comp) will win.

Even if you would rate the guardian 8, it would still be inferior to a ranger or an ele.

Top class indeed, but still inferior.

And i agree that a guardian can beat a trap ranger, but this is a totally different story.

thats all i was saying. even with my ego and nomatter how good i say i am i will admit that mesmer is bad. im not saying im bad just the class is bad. maybe not even bad but just not as good as the 5 that are scored higher then them.

so anyone that takes offense to this post please understand im not targeting people directly im targeting the class as a whole in based of the game mode the devs gave us.

Arheundel.6451:

@lillz shorty

Well in a game with ladder like GW1 was, the only way to reach the top is to consistently beat other top players, basically reach god level, that’s why top players in GW1 were real top players.
At the top level you reach that state of mind that set you apart from the rest ; top players in GW1 truly putted the standards for the entire community both as a person and skill level, you could fall in love with GW1 by simply watching a match between top teams ( GvG mostly but HA was good as well, r12 hero teams were great to watch )

Another thing in GW1 was that top teams would remain at the top regardless of any balance change, this because they had the capacity to quickly adapt their strategy against what was considered strong at any given time, knowing this I have assumed you had already extensive experience from GW1 when dealing with balance^^

dont confuse my truth about balance with adapting. we have never exploited and never run multi comps and we always had a mesmer and warrior on our team. and we have always beat all the top teams because of our strats and our skill.

the point is it would be easier if the game was balanced. no reason for close games because bad players run great classes and get carried by there classes.

everybody ran back point mesmer except us cause we knew it was weak. just because some kids say its good and 95% of you just listen. when we actually tested it and found out numbers we seen its a bad idea. then 2 months of us non stop winning pz came back for a 4th time and took what i said we already talked about my forum post balance views and they put it to test. they ran the most op classes and dominated they had 2 bad players and 1 decent player and 2 great players but they dominated so hard because there class carried them. so you cant dispute the point when its been proven.

saying we need to adapt is the laziest thing to say. yes we do adapt but we shouldnt have to.

lilz shorty.1879:

@ sataar

Lol im not getting sensitive its just how I am. I cant really express emotion but everyone knows that there is only one thing that can ever really get me mad lol. We won for way more then a week is what im saying and qp means nothing. We won I would say about 90% of the games we played. We also played 1 day out of the whole month for the whole 1 round tourney que and then a couple random games some other day against pz. I saw people rack up almost 500 qps from that month alone…..

Our team started out extremely well and beat every team except the first two times we played QT’s. This is why i wish they had ratings/rankings at the time. This was in about November I believe, or closer to December. Our qp’s were not as high because we didn’t have a set a schedule and wouldn’t play for days. And people did not realize we were winning a substantial amount besides vain and hman. Also, vain are the one who convinced us to stream because of it. We finally had a better schedule around January-February to really que.
Also lol, when vyn was with you I was not playing dps as well, I was bunker lol. Bunkers will always lose to a ranger or anything over time. I didn’t switch until nnight went mesmer and I took his place as warrior because we had to run double guard unfortunately for the longest time.

But you are missing my point still lol. I never once said they were better but rather there is no balance needed and that a ranger can lose to guard or warrior. Doesn’t matter if their skill level is even. If you know your team has a comp that will run against stronger comps, you just need to have a different strategy is all Im saying and know how to play it well enough against those comps. But as far as 1v1’s, I have won most of my 1v1’s in tourneys(when it matters cuz most people don’t) against the classes that are all so called better then me 95% of the time. So has nnight. There is one thing I am confident about and that is no one can beat me in a 1v1 consistently unless your an ele. There is only one other player I h8 going against cuz he hurts and that was Nero. But 1v1’s is not what this game is about.

the reason we always beat you guys is because we used strats so i understand the point in strats. but strats only go so far. this game has always turned into comp wars. since day one i always created the winingest team. the only time we would lose was when pz would either take the most op classes at that point and run multiple of them or they would exploit. and i have always been smarter then java and always withen a week would re strat and stomp them into quitting that happened 3 times. the last time i was to busy in real life to make a team so i didnt get to play you guys or them then but strats yes have a part in the game but classes play a much larger part. because they can run the strats better.

but your team didnt start out well at all it took 2 months of me and well wale well talking and figuring out your teams strong points and me going over diferent strats with him. the only map you guys did decent at was foefire because well whale well was better then jaja and your teams team fight was so strong but still it was simple send me to portal play your point and you guys never won.

also the new qt team after me and q left didnt beat anyone so that beat them after the first 2 times isnt impressive at all. at that time they all got big heads and started getting destroyed because they felt they deserved to win. when we were AIM we were a much better team and thats when we got all our QP when there was every top team q ing and we never lost.

but i understand your point now. if you have a good skill team they should be able to win by having better strats? that is wrong
your other point is you can beat people on your guardian in every 1v1? great if you read my post then you would understand 1v1 is a smaller part of how the balance should calculated. but does play a role in the top 3 objectives so i would have to actually see that in action because i dont belieave you for the main reason you say nero scared you and would beat you when me and nero already discussed how all the other classes destroys him and i on our mesmers. so it sounds a little fishy. i think you just wanted to come on this forum and when you heard the truth about guard it upset you so you started fabricating past events and remembered beating a ranger once before and that turned into 90% wins and never losing 1v1’s.

but like i said if karl ever wants to really test this out we can get actual public numbers and you can show us in there.

Synti.6142:

Elemantlist, Engineer, Guardian is top 3 class in this game.Thief, Mesmer and Warrior are still far too low in their comparative ratings.

what about ranger and necro were do you place them?

lilz shorty.1879:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

lilz shorty.1879:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

lilz shorty.1879:

aww so that is the last thing that some might say should be factored in (SKILL) but it cant be factored in because if you take the most skilled ppl. for example the best ranger and the best warrior then it leads back to the class.

hman and nnight wont beat vyndetta or be anywere as useful its just that simple. doesnt matter how good they are.

so yes skill factors in but the classes should be balanced on paper then let skill win matches not classes.

And speaking of nnight, he’s never lost to. A ranger 1v1 on his warrior either lol.

IMO the 1 week you guys won made you act different i never played you that week when you guys did win so i dont know if you guys did get super good like you make it seem. but from all the times we did play and from talking with wale wale well after every game and hiim asking me how you guys can get better it always came down to your comps. and after nnight got off warrior and you guys started playing with a cheese ele is when you started winning.

i dont know if i actually understand the point your trying to make here on this thread.

my point is skill should not be a factored in creating a class. class balance should be factored in reguarding how you win the game. then after the game is balanced skill then determines who wins the game.

First of all good joke lol about the 1 week thing considering how we did as a team is besides the point. Secondly we always had an ele so don’t call us cheese rofl. Weve run our same comp since day one until we lost a player and changed nnight to Mesmer. So idk what lala land you are in but don’t talk about my team in the open or try to put our team down indirectly and think I’m not stupid enough to catch it. Remko never even likd you so don’t even say you talked to him on a regular basis. Good joke.

But like I said that is besides the point and I’m not here to argue over childish stuff and make childish remarks like you. My point is plain simple;

No game wil lever be 100% balanced because not every class is the same. This game is one of the, most if not the most, balanced game out there in the MMO market, yet we still have people who qq constantly about balance. A lot of the QQing over balance is not a balance issue but more so learn to play issue and ANET see’s and understands it. That is why no major nerfs have been made because there is no need.

Everyone stop crying over balance because your class can’t do everything like some other classes can. It’s almost the reason you are the player and they are the devs. Love to see half of the people QQing make a game let alone a balanced one like this.

i congradulated u on winning for a week. im not being subliminal the qp bored showed how ur team did im just stating facts. im not saying you are bad infact i said you were really good. NUT not as much as you are making it out to seem. you guys started doing really well for that week and then even started streaming for that 1 week but please dont take it past that and say warriors are better then rangers and guardians can beat anything because then i will have to tell the truth on you.

on my mesmer yes i have beaten all the classes also im not saying it cant be done. but if we calculated all of my stats on a best out of 10 scenario (which is what i did) then you compared them to eachother in each category against each class then you will find my scores come out perfect.

when vyn was on my team you didnt beat him once. im not saying you didnt get better cause you may have but i find it higley unlikely that you beat and can consistantly beat all the classes. even if you can you said with great positioning? does that mean a lot of time you have to brak of and come back with all your cd? and then does that make it point per minute efficient?

dont get sensitive on me now morfeous i feel its leaning towards that and we are friends just talking.

lilz shorty.1879:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

lilz shorty.1879:

See I honestly think people in general and in this thread are thinking way to much about mechanics of the game without including other factors. The balance in this game is not as bad as people make it out to be. Classes are meant to do certain things and anet has done a good job at making that obvious with certain classes.

I keep seeing that this class and this class has shouldn’t be able to beat this comp or class based on what is written down on paper. That is the dumbest bs I ever heard or seen in my life and a typical excuse people use. I’m not calling a anyone out but so what if a class is supposed to perform better at certain aspects of the game(on paper). So what if the other teams comp (on paper) ikittenv5 or 3v3 is better. It doesn’t mean you cannot win. It comes down to the players and team play of both sides. If everyone constantly has that mentality you will never be able to compete at a top level in anything you do including sports, work, etc…..

All these posts about balance balance balance because a class cannot do this. Well classes are meant to do certain things which is why you have a team. You can play anything you want in this game if you wanted and any comp. All it takes is an adjustment to strategy. Some classes did needed to be toned down but sent he already done a good enough job with that.

aww so that is the last thing that some might say should be factored in (SKILL) but it cant be factored in because if you take the most skilled ppl. for example the best ranger and the best warrior then it leads back to the class.

hman and nnight wont beat vyndetta or be anywere as useful its just that simple. doesnt matter how good they are.

so yes skill factors in but the classes should be balanced on paper then let skill win matches not classes.

Yes but the best warrior can beat the best ranger lol. Skill is not the only thing lol being skillful but completely outplaying someone or another class is different. Vyndetta has lost to nnight in a 1v1 and I have beaten Vyn 1v1 as a guard a couple of times. But that’s not what I’m even getting at. Classes are meant to be better at certain aspects and your teams comp and strategy should account for that. The classes IMO are balanced for most part. I’d say roughly 85% of there. Just like a thief has to know his play style if he’s on a team. In anything you do, doesn’t matter if you are on the same level in terms of skill or knowledge, outplaying them is always a possilbity.

And speaking of nnight, he’s never lost to. A ranger 1v1 on his warrior either lol.

IMO the 1 week you guys won made you act different i never played you that week when you guys did win so i dont know if you guys did get super good like you make it seem. but from all the times we did play and from talking with wale wale well after every game and hiim asking me how you guys can get better it always came down to your comps. and after nnight got off warrior and you guys started playing with a cheese ele is when you started winning.

i dont know if i actually understand the point your trying to make here on this thread.

my point is skill should not be a factored in creating a class. class balance should be factored in reguarding how you win the game. then after the game is balanced skill then determines who wins the game.

Vanthian.9267:

DevilsGlare.7658:

BTW, I’m still the best ele in these parts. Don’t get that twisted.

Self proclaimed “best”. It amuses me so many people claim to be the best. I will give that some people have a tiny cult following, but that doesn’t make you the best.

I pretty much ignore the people who claim to be the “best” because in most cases they are not worth listening too. Just a over inflated ego and the desire to be the “best”.

The sPvP community is very…. how do I type this without getting a infraction…. “poor” on a good day. I am fairly certain the sPvP scene is dead at this point with very little hope of revival. With all the “pros” running around you would assume the game is doing great in sPvP……

anyone that plays with me becomes the best so just accept it please and move on with the topic.

lilz shorty.1879:

See I honestly think people in general and in this thread are thinking way to much about mechanics of the game without including other factors. The balance in this game is not as bad as people make it out to be. Classes are meant to do certain things and anet has done a good job at making that obvious with certain classes.

I keep seeing that this class and this class has shouldn’t be able to beat this comp or class based on what is written down on paper. That is the dumbest bs I ever heard or seen in my life and a typical excuse people use. I’m not calling a anyone out but so what if a class is supposed to perform better at certain aspects of the game(on paper). So what if the other teams comp (on paper) ikittenv5 or 3v3 is better. It doesn’t mean you cannot win. It comes down to the players and team play of both sides. If everyone constantly has that mentality you will never be able to compete at a top level in anything you do including sports, work, etc…..

All these posts about balance balance balance because a class cannot do this. Well classes are meant to do certain things which is why you have a team. You can play anything you want in this game if you wanted and any comp. All it takes is an adjustment to strategy. Some classes did needed to be toned down but sent he already done a good enough job with that.

aww so that is the last thing that some might say should be factored in (SKILL) but it cant be factored in because if you take the most skilled ppl. for example the best ranger and the best warrior then it leads back to the class.

hman and nnight wont beat vyndetta or be anywere as useful its just that simple. doesnt matter how good they are.

so yes skill factors in but the classes should be balanced on paper then let skill win matches not classes.

Nilvio.7941:

Balance is cool but still FEATURES>BALANCE anytime.

This game lacks so heavily on feature side that balance dont really matter.

Even with perfect balance noone would play this crap

but thats the thing this game is not crap… it has so much potential (yes it keeps being said) if your hot girlfriend had a baby and 6 months later still had the fat would you just leave her? no cause you know she was hot and you should give her at least a year IMO

Acandis.3250:

hi vain nice to see you

remember folks: google img search “qt vain” to see just how cute vain really is

alot of ppl got mad on the last SOTG when they said there would be no ratings for a long time to come just another leaderbord on the forums just like the QP leaderbord except this time you cant see how close to advancing you are.

then people got even more mad when the balance guy karl said he balances this game off of reading the forums instead of actually doing real testing and collecting real numbers so i made a post that you replied to in hopes of helping him do is job correctly so people are not as mad.

ps i miss you even though i dont like you but i need you even though i dont want you..

Duncanmix.5238:

no i would prefare any of the top 5 scores over a mesmer. time warp doesnot make up for the rest of the team fight the top 5 classes bring to the team fight or 3v3. your compareing 10 seconds every 4 min to 3 min and 50 seconds of a better class. and thats saying you are in a 3v3 against kitten that dont just jump off the timewarp like most ppl do

ur original reason for having mesmer was to put him at home node and portal play that. that was an aweful reason for a mesmer. but now it changed into take a mesmer for time warp and i feel that is a awful reason as well. i cant justify bringing a mesmer over any of the top 5 scored classes because there is no comparison.

Obviously I’m trying to counter your strategy with mesmer in team. That’s why I put mesmer on beach now. Also mesmer strength is not only in portal but other skills as well including illusion rev.
There is one point where we simply don’t agree: you say that guardian + necro + engi will beat guardian + ranger + mesmer. I do not believe in this.

[/quote]

if your taking a class for the revive then i would pick necro over the mesmer because they dont drop back down after time its a full revive. i am just saying everything else brings more then a mesmer i am not saying dont bring a mesmer just that the 5 clases i scored higher can do what it does but better.

if you think there is some things the mesmer can do better then any of the top 5 let me know so i can check what i tested and then i can tell you how and why the other classes do it better[/quote]

No I’m not picking mesmer just to revive. You need to look at full picture here. Why would I pick mesmer as top 3:
- portal – gives u flexible moving between 2 nodes created extra player
- time warp – best team ulti
- illusion rev – cheap revive
- great 1v1 ability
- high survivability
- extremely good boon removal

[/quote]

the thing is i do look at the full picture.

yes a portal might let u move from mid to home but is easily countered by any of the classes i scored higher. it is countered in 2 ways. the first way it is countered is all those classes can beat the mesmer in a 1v1 and can do it pretty fast, if you stay on point even faster. now the secend counter is pretty good also and done mostly if you are a staff mesmer and that is called portal pop play. it is what we used to do to neru when he was staff. just pop his portal and take him out the fight for 90 seconds. both ways = waste of a class.

time warp. is not the best team utility it is actually one of the worst when you play actual teams. you can not use it in 1v1 cause a mesmer using it on himself is a joke, and in team fights against a team they all get out of it. good luck killing any people i play with with a timewarp. your best bet is to use it how i do as a definsive messure to scare the other team back and rez your teammates. but then ranger is better for that shorter cooldown on speed reses.

illusion would never be a reason i would take a mesmer. i would take the necro over that any day because the res is permanent plus the necro elite plauge form is way more useful in a team fight and the dmg per second a necro can dish out in a full fight is way more then a mesmer even while being focused down.

1v1 ability ? against who and in what scenario? against a warrior yes we can beat them every time. against a thief? 50/50 or maybe we can beat them 60% but against the others nope? unless they leave a guard unatended but then the other classes can beat it faster.

high survivability? 4 second invuln if u do it perfect with 4 clones once every 90 seconds unless u spec into it then it recharges at 50% health once every 90 seconds. and blured frenzy is 2 second invuln every 16 seconds unless u stay on that weapon set and spam 1 waiting for it to recharge. but then the main problem comes into affect during all that time the condis are killing you while you can do nothing about it. i think a high survivability would be being able to kill the person not just stay alivefor 20 seconds. because at the en d of the fight you die they win so there survivability is higher right?

extremly good boon removal? you just wasted all your clones on distortion so you cant remove boons plus you cant dmg cause you had to shatter your phantasms.

a mesmer is in the same boat as a warrior and a thief. yes you can take them but they are not self sufficiant, they need to play the part of a roamer and they need backup soon. everything you said they are ok at the other classes are better.

yes and im the best player in the world so my vote counts for at least 5?

when they added in the orb it showed how amazing this game mode can be with some added objectives.

Kwll.1468:

I cant believe people still respond to this guys postings. All he is some dude who never runs in anything but a full premade of rank 45+ people and has a guild name that is border insulting to your average player. We need to get past the idea that this type of players input is somehow more valubable then your average player that pugs or occassionally runs in groups its not.

i have pugged more games then most ppl have played and when i say i legit mean map chat randoms that i never heard of and i dont mean just 1 to fill a 4 man team i have but i take 2-3.

im sorry if the last 2 weeks i havnt pugged much but 2 weeks compared to release of this game isnt much.

but me being better and smarter and having a lot more experience with this game is why i post correct views of this game. go play all the classes and like most ppl will agree with this post.

you need to remember im basing this off of a conquest game type and am judgeing classes compared to eachother on important factors to win a game. it might be to complicated for you to do or understand but if you can do please be my guest go make a post and i will see if you are right and if i feel you are wrong i will disprove it not just make a random comment and tell ppl not to listen to you because you dont lose.

Duncanmix.5238:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Duncanmix.5238:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Wow, so the player you stomped will have 15 sec respawn + time to get to middle. So about 30 secs you have a 3v2 advantage. Gl when third is coming and they stomp you with timewarp…cuz obviously you wasted it before. I don’t get this tactic, you should try it without timwarp mabye

Well the point of my strategy is to show advantage of having mesmer/guardian/ele in team, or should I say its even necessity. You saying your mesmer coming to mid and using time warp is just further proving my point about these 3.
All our discussion was actually countering ele on far node + having guardian on mid. And seems like both of us want mesmer with time warp in part of solution.

no i would prefare any of the top 5 scores over a mesmer. time warp doesnot make up for the rest of the team fight the top 5 classes bring to the team fight or 3v3. your compareing 10 seconds every 4 min to 3 min and 50 seconds of a better class. and thats saying you are in a 3v3 against kitten that dont just jump off the timewarp like most ppl do

ur original reason for having mesmer was to put him at home node and portal play that. that was an aweful reason for a mesmer. but now it changed into take a mesmer for time warp and i feel that is a awful reason as well. i cant justify bringing a mesmer over any of the top 5 scored classes because there is no comparison.

Obviously I’m trying to counter your strategy with mesmer in team. That’s why I put mesmer on beach now. Also mesmer strength is not only in portal but other skills as well including illusion rev.
There is one point where we simply don’t agree: you say that guardian + necro + engi will beat guardian + ranger + mesmer. I do not believe in this.

if your taking a class for the revive then i would pick necro over the mesmer because they dont drop back down after time its a full revive. i am just saying everything else brings more then a mesmer i am not saying dont bring a mesmer just that the 5 clases i scored higher can do what it does but better.

if you think there is some things the mesmer can do better then any of the top 5 let me know so i can check what i tested and then i can tell you how and why the other classes do it better

Battosai.5620:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Battosai.5620:

why are you people only considering trap rangers? it’s just not as good, it’s subpar and get’s easily countered.
furthermore a ranger shouldn’t lose a 1v1 against a dps guard – but then again keep playing trap ranger till you figure out how to abuse the only 2 really viable trait lines ranger has.
oh and on a sidenote – nobody is playing any class to it’s full potential (yet), there’s just no reason to, people might have done the theory crafting for it but why bother trying hard, when the current state of the game really doesn’t take much “skill” to be on top.
but keep the arguments coming, they’re at least fun to read.

i am only using the best builds now with my numbers because they are the best builds. there is no point for to take into account a worse build because when you get to high lvl play there is no reason not to give yourself every advantage.

i honestly do feel i am using mesmer to the full potential it has. every new role i want to make it i have different builds but for the optimal play from the mesmer it really falls short. i belieave im the best mesmer in the game but to be humble i will just say top 3. but i go 100% hard every game rather its against pugs or premades it dont matter to me.

but that goes to my saying karl needs to somehow get the top 3 of each class and test numbers in a full potential environment so we can correctly balance this game.

trap ranger is not the best build. do you seriously believe that?

yes i believe facts. vinhungry ran a awesome bunkery build were he could come to pressure home point and do crazy dmg with pet and not taking dmg. that build is good but doesnt bring the time efficency with taking points nuetralizing or dmg per second that the vyndetta type trap ranger brings. but all the other ranger builds dont compare.

Masternewbz.4953:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Duncanmix.5238:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Wow, so the player you stomped will have 15 sec respawn + time to get to middle. So about 30 secs you have a 3v2 advantage. Gl when third is coming and they stomp you with timewarp…cuz obviously you wasted it before. I don’t get this tactic, you should try it without timwarp mabye

Well the point of my strategy is to show advantage of having mesmer/guardian/ele in team, or should I say its even necessity. You saying your mesmer coming to mid and using time warp is just further proving my point about these 3.
All our discussion was actually countering ele on far node + having guardian on mid. And seems like both of us want mesmer with time warp in part of solution.

no i would prefare any of the top 5 scores over a mesmer. time warp doesnot make up for the rest of the team fight the top 5 classes bring to the team fight or 3v3. your compareing 10 seconds every 4 min to 3 min and 50 seconds of a better class. and thats saying you are in a 3v3 against kitten that dont just jump off the timewarp like most ppl do

ur original reason for having mesmer was to put him at home node and portal play that. that was an aweful reason for a mesmer. but now it changed into take a mesmer for time warp and i feel that is a awful reason as well. i cant justify bringing a mesmer over any of the top 5 scored classes because there is no comparison.

It is worth bringing a mesmer if that mesmer is ellen ary.

please no jokes lets keep this conversation serious.

Duncanmix.5238:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Wow, so the player you stomped will have 15 sec respawn + time to get to middle. So about 30 secs you have a 3v2 advantage. Gl when third is coming and they stomp you with timewarp…cuz obviously you wasted it before. I don’t get this tactic, you should try it without timwarp mabye

Well the point of my strategy is to show advantage of having mesmer/guardian/ele in team, or should I say its even necessity. You saying your mesmer coming to mid and using time warp is just further proving my point about these 3.
All our discussion was actually countering ele on far node + having guardian on mid. And seems like both of us want mesmer with time warp in part of solution.

no i would prefare any of the top 5 scores over a mesmer. time warp doesnot make up for the rest of the team fight the top 5 classes bring to the team fight or 3v3. your compareing 10 seconds every 4 min to 3 min and 50 seconds of a better class. and thats saying you are in a 3v3 against kitten that dont just jump off the timewarp like most ppl do

ur original reason for having mesmer was to put him at home node and portal play that. that was an aweful reason for a mesmer. but now it changed into take a mesmer for time warp and i feel that is a awful reason as well. i cant justify bringing a mesmer over any of the top 5 scored classes because there is no comparison.

Battosai.5620:

why are you people only considering trap rangers? it’s just not as good, it’s subpar and get’s easily countered.
furthermore a ranger shouldn’t lose a 1v1 against a dps guard – but then again keep playing trap ranger till you figure out how to abuse the only 2 really viable trait lines ranger has.
oh and on a sidenote – nobody is playing any class to it’s full potential (yet), there’s just no reason to, people might have done the theory crafting for it but why bother trying hard, when the current state of the game really doesn’t take much “skill” to be on top.
but keep the arguments coming, they’re at least fun to read.

i am only using the best builds now with my numbers because they are the best builds. there is no point for to take into account a worse build because when you get to high lvl play there is no reason not to give yourself every advantage.

i honestly do feel i am using mesmer to the full potential it has. every new role i want to make it i have different builds but for the optimal play from the mesmer it really falls short. i belieave im the best mesmer in the game but to be humble i will just say top 3. but i go 100% hard every game rather its against pugs or premades it dont matter to me.

but that goes to my saying karl needs to somehow get the top 3 of each class and test numbers in a full potential environment so we can correctly balance this game.

Duncanmix.5238:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Duncanmix.5238:

I don’t have team, this was just my thinking and my experience. But first yes I wanna discuss more. You said you will slow down my ele? How do you plan to do that. Lets imagine we play forest map, it is almost impossible to stop me from reaching your node on time. Unless you put people on me, which will lose you middle. Every person you place to take care of my ele is equaling to having extra less person on middle. Another thing is that you used ele on our far node, which pretty much means we agree ele is must. Now another point is, do you have guardian on middle. If you don’t have guardian on middle, its highly chance my team will take it eventually.
This leaves only discussion about is your ranger faster to deal with my ele, or my mesmer can deal faster with your ele. This is debatable, and also depend on builds + will you sent one from mid to help out etc. If you have guardian you can afford to sent one guy to deal with ele. And then I feel that my team have upper hand because mesmer ulti + for example thief, and good bye to your ele.

so we like to send 4 ppl out the beach door. i start with magic bullet stun through ur ride the lightning then beserker to cripple u and put u in combat. that is all it takes and if we land it the rest my team is already running to mid without entering combat. if we nne dextra slow on u a second person can help. guardian for example with immobaloze. plus the ranger has traps set down so he will always get the cap. now the ele on our team ignored all that and went straight to your point and you called 4 our crossing because you seen 4 us beach door so most likely 2-3 will stay at your home point but we are going to mid. we have 3 ppl beating on your guard and can have him dead in 20 seconds reguardless of what he does. the second guy will be trickling into mid and maybe the 3rd guy if your mesmer says he can take our ele but they cant so now we have ur guard down and he didnt hurt any of us we have a engi and a guard in mid so whatever 2 you have is going to have a hard time killing us 3. at that point ranger will tell me how much time he has left either he is about to die or has to break off let it get neatralized to stay alive. i would be first rotater on my mesmer and would evaluate the time it takes me to get to him on when i have to break off. but if you left 2 ppl to stay home against our ele after we kill guard i immediatley rotate back home point scare you off our ranger and let our 2 at mid 2v1 your 1 person left. plus our ele doesnt kite your 2 close back to mid hes by you base so yes you have it capped by hes toying with 2 ppl leaving us outnumbering your team.

and this whole game came down to you leaving a mesmer and us leaving a ranger at home point. just the difference in score i give classes really does make a huge difference in a actual game.

now you can put a thief or warrior in my spot and they can be as useful as me but lets say i stop playing mesmer and pick up necro or ranger and we run a top 5 class comp then our strats are amplified just because of how much better the class is.

Well obviously you are making strategy all the time that is trying perfectly to counter what my strategy is doing. But that’s because you read what I said. Also 80% of your strategy is focused on countering my ele which leaves you with early advantage.
Now that I know whats your plan I’m changing my strategy too. I’m sending 4 beach too including mesmer. But I have time warp, all my people will focus one of your guys that is most squishy chain cc on him. In the mean time my ele will run through and stop your ranger from capping, same as your ele will stop ours.
Now situation is:
- my ranger vs your ele
- your ranger vs my ele
- 3v2 on mid cause I had time warp

nice your thinking on a pro lvl. so now we engage in a 3v3 on mid fight you have a mesmer a guard and a what? because a team with a necro a guard and engi will win the 3v3. also the time warp on beach is very bad idea very easy to get out of

ohh and i pre think of every posibility ppl can do and we call out movements compared to what the other team does.

Zinwrath.2049:

TBH, its a bit soon to really rank professions in a game that has no tournaments,
no system to tell whos better or worst than the next,
maps with 2nd objectives (and future 2nd objectives) that could create new roles
is still under going reform,
and finally…is a game few people play comparitivly to already succesful competitive games. (more people play dominion for league of legends than this games spvp…and that game mode doesnt even make up 1-100th of its internet traffic)

I’ll start wrapping my mind around what profession is stronger in a team when it actually matters…seemingly no earlier than end of this year. Which i imagine there will be a LOT of random changes between now and then.

i feel this is one of the most important factors in reasons why ppl left the game. balance is very important from day 1. when people play so well and still lose because of balance then that is unacceptable.

Archer Henchman.2534:

Oh good, quality drama before bed!

Davinci, I’ll have you recall that the last time we played, I ran a clinic on your team with a pug, carrying mine to a solid 500-1X0 victory and then your half your group quit GW and migrated over to playing smite. Sataar was in the game. Hman was as well. I neutered both of them, and mace skull cracked you three times for three downs leading to three won midfights.

Ah hee hee hee. Too bad it wasn’t recorded. I’da highlight reeled half my plays that game.
——-

Okay, okay. Enough bravado. Back to the topic:

So to go back to the game above. Yes, its possible to dictate the flow of a match as a thief. I played a nearly perfect game in terms of timing, positioning and skill use, but it still felt like, as a thief, I was only capitalizing on the mistakes that others had made wrt to their approach to me, because despite setting the pace, I knew exactly what could be done to flip the tables. In order to counter that counter, I need a team set up to make my class work, which is absurd.

While I think thief is a solid 5/10, that doesn’t mean they can’t be played, it just means they need to get a bit more creative with their play. If my positioning is even a bit off, I’m done. If I misspend any initiative that I need to escape, I die. This isn’t really an issue, but the pay-off for success isn’t that high relative to the risk.

Team comps can cover up the issues with a weaker class,. War + Ele, for instance. Thief requires reliable cc for peeling and spike setups. Mesmers a safe midline and a few allies who can capitalize on timewarp (non-lich necro, for instance? bad at timewarps T_T).

I think that the effectiveness of classes was never really measured in a vaccuum, but most exploitative comps haven’t exploited synergies. They’ve just taken multiple copies of the class with the best matchups and set them loose around the map to force rotations and gain map control.

Will a change in balancing philosophy to focus on issues that class synergies create solve the problems in GW2? Maybe, but only in the future where those synergies are the driving force behind team composition. Because matches are so atomized outside of the big mid team-fight, its impossible to rely on synergies to make an individual’s build work.

Accordingly, if the only element that everyone needs to work together for is a team fight mid, then it explains why all of Sataar’s criteria point towards the ability to bomb the kitten out of a point with aoe, or conversely survive that assault (sidepoint shenanigans are an issue because of them forcing people to rotate off the clusterkitten mid). Even spirit and temple’s mechanics turn into pseudo points (with the exception of the orb run itself, which again, is dominated by eles), so the same set of criteria reproduce themselves.

Re: Jax’s post

I think a lot of what was said there is correct. Lots of people just toss the classes they play together with a group of people they play with, and run with whatever. Many builds and setups aren’t really selected in order to have cross-class synergy (see above for why I think that is)

I wouldn’t argue that mesmers are better than necros. Mesmers might have a better trick in offensive portals and timewar kitten olid but overall their damage on point is predictable to dodge or blind and difficult to set up. Necros provide substantial damage in aoe + cc. Signet res is also more stronger than illusion of life if its precasted or stability goes up for some insurance.

Re: Taym.

Binding roots kittens on a few classes to the point where it feels like they’ve just been removed from the fight. Necros, rangers, mesmers, engineers without nades up etc. end up very vulnerable. Eles who have blown their combo and end up in an attunement like water, similarly, get stuck. Warriors end up being a solid counter to binding roots, as are thieves and offensive guardians, as each can clear multiple roots off your team nearly instantly.

Since the above vulnerable groups are the dangerous classes, people use roots. Res pet, by contrast, does very well against spiky teams, as a warrior/thief can down someone, then their target gets up and the warrior/thief has no juice left and 1/3rd of his hp.

I don’t think warrior is quite at a 3/10 in theory, but in practice, frost and shocking aura are absurdly strong anti-warrior tools in team fights, and they’re not even brought to deal with warriors specifically.

Lol this post is long. Time to go to sleep.

great reply

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

The Class-Ratings are well made. Comes really near to my opinion. Well a 3 for warrior is a bit hard, though he has Battle-Standard, is the best class against downed ppl (100b, whirlwind = nearly impossible to get a person up) and brings generally some great dmg input to teamfights. The things is timing and know when to retreat. Also a warrior can’t be left allone, but as roam support it can work out pretty good.

Ranger 9/10 in the aspect of a 1v1 or 2v2 he’s pretty effective, also roots are destroying. If it comes to bigger teamfights like 4v4 mid-fights then he looses against other classes its value due to nearly no dmg and bleeding remove through different classes (e.g. guardian; ele). Prolly would set him to an 8/10.

Taym.8326:

There is a lot of chest thumping in this thread which is highly unnecessary, those who play the game and still somewhat shine are just leftovers. There is no pride to take in that, just calm down and try to enjoy the game for what you can get out of it. If your enjoyment stems from how high your ranking is on the NA ladder then you should probably just stop right now because you are embarrassing yourself.

Now to topic, I don’t agree with many of the original ratings that were given in the thread. However if I analyze it in an off-node 1v1 situation more of them start to make sense however Thief, Mesmer and Guardian are still far too low in their comparative ratings. I think independent ratings should be given for each role such as off-node, de-cap, team fight, survivability, and support(stomp/rez/buffs). I just think that there is much that your assessments leave out, I do believe warrior is in a bad place at the moment but definitely not a 3/10.

On a sidenote, why the fascination with entangling roots. Every class has MANY ways to get out of this ability, if it hits in the first place any teleport, condition removal, block, invuln or dodge will instantly negate its effect. It is one of the easiest countered elites in the game and as such you will have to wait until the entire group wastes their abilities to have it work to its full effect, however this will never happen so you camp one target instead bypassing the entire aoe effect. The only side-bonus is this ability can deal with any summoned pets rather well only because the AI is so bad or they would get themselves out

my facination with entangle is i belieave its the strongest 1v1 elite and strongest teamfight elite so if i compare that to the others its the best elite. you have to blow break stuns to get out of it but usually take dmg by then and thats hoping u have a break stun for it.

now i do give independent scores for each of the major 3 things. lets just say for example 2.5 for each of the 3 posible points then .75 for 1v1 and .75 for team fight then .5 for mobility and .5 for misc. (thats not my exact numbers i used but similar) then i take those numbers and compare each class in them the best class gets a 2.5 then i give less and less for each class that does it worse. so basically its a grading curve.

so after all the independent scores are given thats what leads to the main score.

Amaterasu.6280:

Totally agree dude, I just wanted to make discussion. I enjoy threads like this, minus the side drama.

yeah its a great thread IMO and its bound to lead to heavy debates. i dont mind the side drama cause the cause of it is over the main issue which is the balance. i would want karl to set aside the arguing and we take top of every class and we put them in every situation and calculate the outcome but not only the outcome but the total dps done and recieved by each player and how long it takes to win or lose vs each player then start adding 2v2 3v3 4v4 5v5 yes it takes time but the game took what 5 years to make? this is what should have been hapining for 5 years

lilz shorty.1879:

Idk why when i type (L2p) issue it rewords it as (l2 kitten ue)? Wtf lol

because of my big (l2 p) post it made them add it as a bad word.

now get back on the topic.

Amaterasu.6280:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

nice well thought out reply but you didnt say anything really positive about the thief how did you come up with a 6.5? what was that number compared to?

remember you need to take in account can it back cap can it hold nodes and can it neatralize against someone then for what time duration if any then factor in what classes can do what it does and or cant do and what score that class has. if you compare it to every class above it using my scores you will see it falls well short of the bar and IMO 6.5 is to good of a score in comparrison.

You’re right, I was hitting 6.5 based off of my own scale from 1-10. I should have adjusted that via your comparisons. In that case, your scale reflects the current game balance pretty accurately.

However I do feel that there are some variables within that scale which should shift those numbers depending on the team comp/requirements.

Since I play thief, let’s just take thief as an example.

Nowadays a thief is always the roamer right? He don’t need to, nor should he be neuting or holding points…it’s not his job. Backcapping when the time is right, yes, but approaching 1v1 fights especially against trap rangers/guards in desire to neut would be a stupid idea unless you know for sure you can 1v1 them. So now, according to your important aspects of the game, the thief has holding + neuting points crossed out -

That is a bit unfair imo, because we are talking about team play here…and team play means that a roamer could very well sacrifice the ability to hold+neut points because someone else in the team would fulfill that role. The problem with neuting + holding is just that…they have to stay there…and once they leave they would be trying to fulfill the role of the roamer and the point is now left empty. A roamer shouldn’t be holding+capping points so they could capitalize on their role:

The roaming thief is the one to come in mid-fight to change tides especially if it’s a 1v1 or 1v2 before the thief gets there. If it was a 1v1 before, that other person is going to be dead unless it somehow gets away…but even a ele can’t run away from me unless I have shadowstep on cd. If it was a 1v2 before, then it’s now pretty much an even fight. A thief brings so much burst that any non-bunker class would automatically start to be more alert so they don’t get bursted down instantly. Besides a 100n engi, there really isn’t any other class that can bring that much burst in such a short time. I am omitting 100b wars because more often than not, it can be broken out of because of the sheer time it takes for the 100b to execute through even with haste.

What I’m trying to say is, though your scale (in analyzing the class alone) may be valid in terms of Capping, Holding, Neutralizing, and Team Fights, there is definitely much more determining factors shifting those numbers depending on the team comps of both parties.

Though I can agree (and who can’t?) that Eles are the god-tier class still…no other class can cap/neut like rangers/engis, roam like thieves, teamfight + drop burning fields and share auras, all while being able to survive and put out good dps. It’s silly, but it’s just how eles are…and from what it seems from the last SOTG…Karl tends to think that eles are perfectly fine.

i replied earlier that as a thief and warrior can play my position almost as well as me. and i took that into account when i made my scores for them all. i put the thief so close to mesmer because i feel they can do what i do just about the same. and they are pretty even with mesmers in 1v1 and damgae per second based off a minute fight in every scenario. but the thing that put them jjust below mesmer was the holding a point part.

i made this list to correctly reflect the classes and i dont want to give any class more then it deserves because i want the true score to represent the class so we can fix the balance in the game.

im not saying you but there will be a lot of ppl that read this thread that will take it as a personal attack. im not saying they are bad or great this is all based off of the class specifically. and i fell there needs to be big changes and frequent not little pointless underwater balance once every 2 months.

lilz shorty.1879:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

lilz shorty.1879:

Archer Henchman.2534:

lilz,

Trap ranger beats offensive guardians 100% of the time with a comfortable amount of health remaining without using their ult.

Timewarp doesn’t really change up a fight, because players playing against a mesmer will generally dip earlier in order to prevent themselves from getting spiked and then quickness stomped. Mesmers are rather weak in team fight situations, and the longer they hold timewarp, the worse a position their team is in. Mesmers have very telegraphed spikes with shatters, and aoe on points typically clears clones and phantasms quickly, severely reducing their damage output. A backpoint trap ranger, for instance, can drop a huge amount of damage on point, bring significant cc with his pets, drop an ult which provides more anti-pressure and 180 degree capability than timewarp, and does so in a package which is harder to drop.

More importantly, trap rangers BURN GUARDIANS DOWN HARRRRRRRRRRD, which pressures teams incredibly hard, as a guardian has trouble dropping off point and guardians force a backline character up to get cleaved on his corpse. Additionally, his down 2 state is very telegraphed and blindable, and stab stompable, which means the other guardian on-point is in a very good position to drop him. Mesmers don’t apply that much pressure to guardians when their clones are being cleared and don’t have the bulk to extend to hit backline characters.

You my friend have it completely backwards.

First of all skill and awareness is the number one thing in this game. Counter classes dont matter. Rangers do counter guardians hard but no ranger can beat a good and well played dps guardian ever lmao. You probably wouldn’t know because all the good players cease to play anyway and there is only one guaridan who was able to beat all rangers 1v1 unless he had no cd’s.

As far as mesmers, like I said, skill is an important factor including your teammates whether or not your Mesmer uses it offensively or defensively. As a top player or team, you know ahead of time the team will back out of time warp so your team should know what to do accordingly. Same goes for when you use it defensively. Timewarp is by far the biggest skill changer in high level tournament games. BY FAR and nothing is even close when time warp is used right.

please dont turn this into a argument or do belittling things like LMAO there is no need for that. now when i step in i will tell you from the games i seen the rangers beat the dps guards 80% + the time. all the above classes beat it plus my mesmer off point beats it and off point and in the overal points per second in a 1 min time the other classes beat the dps guard.

I’m not belittling anyone but being myself. And I’m clearing stating the truth. If you want to balance something you have to take what can be done when the class is actually played well. MOST do not play it well and is why 80% of classes beat it. A lot are also just copying build without realizing that the one they’d are copying is not that great in the first place. That’s like saying that everyone thought ele was bad and beat it 1v1 constantly all the time because no one knew how to play it well. Does that mean its not that great? No lol. Anet has mentioned it in a state of game and a lot of times balances are not the issue as it is a L2play issue. Balance in this game is fine for some classes and people just don’t realize it. Skill is the biggest factor in this game.

ty for clarifying and im glad for your input. maybe the great dps guards we used were not the best but they wer e pretty dang good and we ran our tests more then 1 or 2 times against each class and build. next time i do some test i might ask you to come help us out or if karl does get the best 3 of each class so i can show him all the numbers i have then i can mention you. but to be honest i never seen a scarey dps guard and dont find them as useful as a bunker guard and for what they can bring i would pick any class i scored above them to fulfil the dps guard role.. and no i dont think kaypud or oppa was to intemidating. kaypud would get me off point but i beat him 95% of the time and after practicing with folly when folly wanted to do it it took folly 30 trys before he beat me one and after he got used to it was way better then kaypud at it.

you are a great dps guard dont think im saying otherwise this post isnt a personal attack on anyone its just the facts that i have in front of me. we will be able to run better tests if karl wants to. i just want a balanced game and for him to say he balances the game by listining to the forums makes me so upset

lilz shorty.1879:

Archer Henchman.2534:

lilz,

Trap ranger beats offensive guardians 100% of the time with a comfortable amount of health remaining without using their ult.

Timewarp doesn’t really change up a fight, because players playing against a mesmer will generally dip earlier in order to prevent themselves from getting spiked and then quickness stomped. Mesmers are rather weak in team fight situations, and the longer they hold timewarp, the worse a position their team is in. Mesmers have very telegraphed spikes with shatters, and aoe on points typically clears clones and phantasms quickly, severely reducing their damage output. A backpoint trap ranger, for instance, can drop a huge amount of damage on point, bring significant cc with his pets, drop an ult which provides more anti-pressure and 180 degree capability than timewarp, and does so in a package which is harder to drop.

More importantly, trap rangers BURN GUARDIANS DOWN HARRRRRRRRRRD, which pressures teams incredibly hard, as a guardian has trouble dropping off point and guardians force a backline character up to get cleaved on his corpse. Additionally, his down 2 state is very telegraphed and blindable, and stab stompable, which means the other guardian on-point is in a very good position to drop him. Mesmers don’t apply that much pressure to guardians when their clones are being cleared and don’t have the bulk to extend to hit backline characters.

You my friend have it completely backwards.

First of all skill and awareness is the number one thing in this game. Counter classes dont matter. Rangers do counter guardians hard but no ranger can beat a good and well played dps guardian ever lmao. You probably wouldn’t know because all the good players cease to play anyway and there is only one guaridan who was able to beat all rangers 1v1 unless he had no cd’s.

As far as mesmers, like I said, skill is an important factor including your teammates whether or not your Mesmer uses it offensively or defensively. As a top player or team, you know ahead of time the team will back out of time warp so your team should know what to do accordingly. Same goes for when you use it defensively. Timewarp is by far the biggest skill changer in high level tournament games. BY FAR and nothing is even close when time warp is used right.

please dont turn this into a argument or do belittling things like LMAO there is no need for that. now when i step in i will tell you from the games i seen the rangers beat the dps guards 80% + the time. all the above classes beat it plus my mesmer off point beats it and off point and in the overal points per second in a 1 min time the other classes beat the dps guard.

Archer Henchman.2534:

lilz,

Trap ranger beats offensive guardians 100% of the time with a comfortable amount of health remaining without using their ult.

Timewarp doesn’t really change up a fight, because players playing against a mesmer will generally dip earlier in order to prevent themselves from getting spiked and then quickness stomped. Mesmers are rather weak in team fight situations, and the longer they hold timewarp, the worse a position their team is in. Mesmers have very telegraphed spikes with shatters, and aoe on points typically clears clones and phantasms quickly, severely reducing their damage output. A backpoint trap ranger, for instance, can drop a huge amount of damage on point, bring significant cc with his pets, drop an ult which provides more anti-pressure and 180 degree capability than timewarp, and does so in a package which is harder to drop.

More importantly, trap rangers BURN GUARDIANS DOWN HARRRRRRRRRRD, which pressures teams incredibly hard, as a guardian has trouble dropping off point and guardians force a backline character up to get cleaved on his corpse. Additionally, his down 2 state is very telegraphed and blindable, and stab stompable, which means the other guardian on-point is in a very good position to drop him. Mesmers don’t apply that much pressure to guardians when their clones are being cleared and don’t have the bulk to extend to hit backline characters.

very well put reply. when i started calculating the elites into team fights i based them off of comparison to the ranger entangle elite as i see its the strongest and most useful one. yes timewarp is great if u can use it ikittenv5 and the other team stays in it but when does that happen? so the less and less ppl in it makes it worse and worse. but i am not saying its bad at all just easily nullified.