Guild Wars 2

Mallis.4295:

VB is pretty empty. There’s not a lot to do there. AB/TD/DS is where everyone is now doing the meta events.

There’s plenty to do in VB, it’s just the heard/swarm have moved far past it. Now it’s finally in the state that it will be in normally since house warming party (the pigs of launch) has moved on back to their favorite MMO or on to new and shinny game whatever. Back in the hands of the people who actually love GW2 now.

Why don’t developers design content to scale with expectations of the inevitable launch swarm that inevitably always always shrinks around 1.5 weeks post launch.

ArenaNet please time gate the kitten out of the next expansion. Use similar technique to Guild Hall time gating and make it so those hardcore gainers can not rush to the finish line 1 week in.

Sunday evening at 11:30 PM CST after a few hours of great PvP in the game I decided I wanted to relax a bit and go cap some hero challenges on the second map in HoT. Watching map chat from the time I entered the zone until I attempted to utilize t myself was painful and quite sad. Three questions asked about map sepecifics over the course of about 15 minutes and not a single answer offered up. Aside from that… crickets.

Went to GH and came back. Played some more. Same experience. A few questions asked, no one answering. I realized very few were on the map. The map was highly populated the previous week. I finally realize the swarm of gammers who come tough like locust and consume everything then move on to…. something else. Were mostly gone. Either sleeping after their 200+ hour stint of play or off to some other game having scarfed down the content they needed. One of their friends can tell them when Raids hit and they can come back when things get interesting again.

I know gamer culture well, but sadly I’m not 14 any more.

At this point I realize I’ve missed the heard and that since HoT is largely no soloable I’ll be reduced to running from mobs most of the time and playing a lot of adventures for XP. I realize getting help with a specific Hero Challenge will be near impossible and require a lot of begging from this point on (or waiting around).

In spite of all this I still love the expansion. I can’t think of much the developer can do to change things to make it better for the more casual players. They can’t control the habits of the swarm or be expected to. As a predominately PvP player my goals with HoT have nothing to do with maxing masteries, legendaries, etc.. I care about finishing the story missions and I care about Elite Specialization unlock. Even at 250 HP the Elite Specialization is going to be much more difficult for the non-heard/swarming “I got their fist nah-na-na-nah-na-na” crowd to obtain, because the resources to help are much more limited at this juncture. That’s why we were pushing so hard for ANet to change it as to not appease the swarm. But of course if the swarm got their way they might stick around another month.

The difference between the average “swarm” player and the more causal PvE types. The “swarm” player is just scarfing down the game to move on. They are generally gamer who player many game.s. The more casual types I’ve met generally player 1 game, GW2 because their time is limited and they’ve chosen GW2 HoT to be the one to devote to. If GW2 were your product which of these two groups do you think is going to give you the highest return on investment over time?

So now the herd is gone (no don’t belching on the GW2 content they scarfed down) the dust can settle. It’s been a bit like moving into a new house only to immediately have a house party the day you move in that last a week. Then finally people leave and you get to enjoy your house. I think we’re transitioning into that phase now as the swarm of “game jumpers” move on to whatever is new and shinny.

After this long rant I’ve decided the best thing I can do at this point is to go back to the first map and just offer to help people. Put my PvE goals ahead and just focus on helping others fullfill their goals. I can at least try to make the game a bit better for someone. I truly believe even with the 250 HP cap that, with the swarm now gone it will take months to obtain all hero challenge points needed. But at least there is still PvP.

Thank you again ArenaNet for the great expansion. You’ve superseded all expectations and have made the game feel entirely new again. Old friends who gave up on the core game are back and we’re all raving… We had a pumpkin carving content for the family and I decided to base mine on the Mad King Thorn mask. Happy Halloween!

Continuing to see this at 9:30 AM CST 10/29

Also have to say this is the best expansion I’ve played. So many positive things, short bullet list

• Smooth launch with very minor hiccups
• Game feels like a release grade product
• Creative map designs with excellent work by the art department.
• The overall story and narrative delivery are much improved over core game
• The way the events transition based on day time, night time and phasing between maps make the game world for alive.
• PvP upgraded with much needed progression path more causals
• In addition to their functional use Guild Halls give us a much needed place to simply sign in and be social in-game
• Multi-guild chat means we get to see conversations from our new and old friends without having to choose between them
• As a company ANet has listening to the community and was quick to address specific things players were most concerned about.

Long boring bullet point list. The bottom line is they found the fun. Once you orientate yourself to the new systems and progression path and start playing HoT becomes very hard to step away from. When you do sign back in there is no dread of XP grind. You’re just trying to decide if you want to go after, do adventures, etc… The more I play the more I want to play it more.

Perfect 10/10

Sykper.6583:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Guild Wars 2 Heart of Thorns is like a five star meals in France. It’s something special. Not you’re run of the mill trash, grind-fest MMO. There are a group of MMO gamers who move in swarms. They come into an new game devour it over the course of a month then they move on. We’re all glad you bought the game and look forward to seeing you again for Raids, but for many of us it’s a bit hard to respect someone who rushes though so quickly. It’s a bit like watching someone sit down and in your favorite upscale restaurant and play their own Man vs Food challenge, scarfing everything down.

Someone is sounding very conceited at this moment in time right now. Of course there’s a majority of players who don’t particularly like those other players who are pushing through, devouring the meal like pigs, and I hope they don’t ask for more when they should have taken their time with the meal. But don’t misrepresent the numbers here and what ground you stand on.

If you think I was trying to state my views represented all casual players or even that it was targeted to all hardcore players, then you misunderstood. I am speaking to a group of them who swarm it. There is a large group who swarm in, rush though the content then go back to playing game X or whatever hot new game of the month arrives. They may return when Raids are unlocked. I believe I’m describing the majority of the hardcore crowd (or at least the majority in GW2 core game). They rush in, finish, bore easy, leave. While there is nothing unethical about what they are doing the reality is that type of gamer is not sticking around to really take in everything as that was never their intention. Taking your time with something, be at fine meal, a fine scotch or even a game shows a level of respect for that thing. Rushing it is the opposite. When someone disrespects something you care about it’s frustrating.

I take nothing back, their behavior is analogous to a child scarfing down a meal.

The manifesto defined a vision for how GW2 would be different from other other grind-fest mindless trash MMO on the market. It was a set of tenants that defined the values the design team would hold to. Anti-grind and causal friendly were two of those leading tenants. They have done an excellent job sticking to their manifesto with minor exception.

Guild Wars 2 Heart of Thorns is like a five star meals in France. It’s something special. Not you’re run of the mill trash, grind-fest MMO. There are a group of MMO gamers who move in swarms. They come into an new game devour it over the course of a month then they move on. We’re all glad you bought the game and look forward to seeing you again for Raids, but for many of us it’s a bit hard to respect someone who rushes though so quickly. It’s a bit like watching someone sit down and in your favorite upscale restaurant and play their own Man vs Food challenge, scarfing everything down.

No it’s not quite the same, but it is int he same ballpark at least from the perspective of those who manage our time and have adult commitments. Why do we care? Well if you’re new to the game you should go back and watch ArenaNet’s manifesto behind the core game. They put out a vision with tenants of making a anti-grind MMO for everyone. At it’s very core GW2 is designed to be challenging but to never loose it’s causal and simi-casual appeal. Those of us who bought into the game on those merits hold GW2 to a higher standard because ArenaNet was brave and innovative enough to build something that didn’t appeal to the hardcore swarm.

Getting back to the fine dining analogy. Hear reports of playing rushing the content and finishing 3 days in, 5 days in, etc.. I could be wrong, but I honestly don’t think most of the player base has envy for you’re “achievement” I think a good number of us are looking at you as a adult would glare at someone else’s child scarfing down a fine meal. Out of place for us to say anything to be rude but it’s annoying to watch no less and annoying not for the reasons you might have hopped it would be.

The tuning/balancing they are doing now is because ArenaNet is a company that does actually care about their manifesto. I imagine they knew the hardcore swarm would stampede through the gates like cattle and go at it non-stop. I’m sure you had a blast doing that. While you were doing that no doubt ArenaNet was gathering all kinds of data. Data on how long events took to complete, what kind of parties were involved, armor sets on players. The deep analytic tools + machine learning data science offers now is incredibly. The tuning they are doing is a result of your hard work. They know where they want the game to be. You got your reward for staying up 48 hours+ just blast though the content. Now they are just getting the game where it needs to be

wolfram.8291:

Please please please ANET. Stand your ground. Weren’t Masteries and Unlocking Elite Spec supposed to take longer than getting to level 80 in the base game? Why are you folding to the elite spec complaints and not doing anything about the mastery farming?

Your comparison is deeply flawed. I’ll explain why. A player unlocks their Elite skill in the base game at level 31 not level 80. Although they don’t have all the utility skills and all trait lines maxed at level 31, they have enough to create a viable build and enjoy the core play mechanics of their class. With Elite Specializations and HoT the player is in level 80 zones were they can not afford to waste one a trait line. They may have the Elite Specialization partial unlocked by the middle of the second map but they can’t max out the trait line until they have spent the 250 points (400 under the hold system). The old system locked out many characters from being able to play the HoT content with their Elite Spec and turned it into an end-game reward. End-game rewards should be cosmetic or stat boost items (e.g. the Elite Spec skins and armor/weapon upgrades) but not gift a core play mechanic. It was bad design and now it’s fixed.

They did the right thing. As it was originally setup, those entering HoT with map competition has 213 hero points, making the full unlock possible about 50% into the new content. Think about it at a higher level in more generic, play mechanic sense. Players who did not have map competition we’re dealing with unlocking them as an end-game reward. Gw2 overs many optional achievement paths. It made no sense that players that elected to go after the map competition achievement over other options should be rewarded with being able to unlock and enjoy the last 50-60% of the HoT content with their elite specs while others were locked out. Assume a player has a small number of hours to spend in game each week. The original system punished players who elected to go play WvW, PvP, run Dungeons or Fractals, etc.. instead of spend their in-game time on the map competition achievement. The change still allows those who did map competition t enjoy a head start on the elite spec, but it doesn’t lock more casual players (or players who simply don’t find map completition fun) out of being able to enjoy actually playing HoT with their elite specs. 400 down to 250 is a fair compromise. It’s good for the game.

Nemesis.8593:

Besides the nerf to the required HP to unlock the full specialization… i’ve just been to the 2nd HP challenge only to discover that it too has been modified… the champion which was suppose to spawn is now just a veteran.

If the contents gets systematically nerfed, people will rush through it… and one month from now they will complain they will not have any content to play. Furthermore there will be a far greater gap between raids… and the new open world content, unless of course raids will be nerfed into the ground as well… in which case i really do not see a future for this game.

I have soloed 90% of all HP champions so far… with two players it should be no problem what so ever.

Heart of Thorns has been amazing so far, don’t take it away from us… please… stahp…

/beg

They are tuning content based on patterns. The game is only becoming better and more approachable as a result. Monday was a horrible time to be in game on Verdant Brink. Today with the tuning and fix the mega-server I feel like I’m finally playing it as intended and it’s awesome. Tuning is a a normal phase post launch for MMOs.

But really, why do you care? You got your reward as your herded though the gate at launch then decided to stay in game from god knows how many hours blasting through new content… The problem is the hardcore community in GW2 seems to be hell bent on turning it into another trash “me first” grind fest MMO and you’ve all collectively failed. ArenaNet is holding to the original tenants of their manifesto.

Let me explain something to you about casual gamers. We are big gem store spenders. We have lives outside the game because we prefer winning and being “me first” in life instead of always accomplishing that in a game world. GW2 has always been the “MMO for everyone” there is still plenty of hardcore content, but you’re not going to steal the game away from the large causal and simi-causal base who love it just as much as you do and probably spend more in the cash shop to support the company.

If you want an MMO that leans heavy on rewarding only the hardcore crowd there are plenty of great options.

Akath.2650:

I know that many people is excited for that, because they want their Revenant running around as Herald or even a new player/character wants their hands on the elite spec, but for those who completed Central Tyria Hero Points, 250 points means almost full elite specialization unlocked… Which means that for those who explored the Core Guild Wars 2, unlocking the elite specialization will no longer be a challenge or even feel like an accomplishment. Thanks all

Kitten off. Most characters don’t have core map competition. I small percentage of the total player base has it and most of those have it on one character. Truthfully they should have introduced a new type of hero point for HoT and not made a link to the two at all. Made it so you could exchange your unspent GW1 core game hero points for Spirit Shards, but they didn’t. The new 250 price is a fair compromise. It means by the middle of the first HoT map players who invested all that time in map competition can have the full elite spec unlocked. Players who did not will have it by the end of the second map and still get to enjoy about 50% of the game with the Elite Specialization. It’s a fair compromise.

The one to Rule.2593:

Meh, casuals win again

Go watch the manifesto video. This game was created for us “casual players” really the word casual should be substituted for normal. This change helps bring the expansion back in line with the original philosophy of the game. Since transitioning from hardcore gamer in my youth to busy adulthood I’ve always had a hard time looking on those who sacrifice so much life to play so often. It’s very hard for me to relate to someone yelling out in the forums “Made it though the final boss battle in four days”, etc… To each his own I guess, but unless you’re 14 and truly don’t have much else to do in life you’ll eventually look back wondering what you were thinking… One of the big selling points of GW2 was the “MMO for everyone” philosophy.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I think you’ll want to read today’s blog post for updates about the iteration on the expansion pack.

Enjoy!

Thank you ArenaNet for listening to the community! I’ve been holding out on writing any on-line reviews of this expansion to see if in the first few weeks problems would be addressed and this post tells me you are quickly addressing all of them. With these changes I’ll give the expansion a perfect 10 out of 10. The game is beautiful and this change will allow us to experience it with our old characters but with very new play mechanics. Couldn’t have asked for me. Much respect to a game developer for acting so quickly.

Thank you ArenaNet. This makes sense.

Dahkeus.8243:

You only need 2-3 people for the champ hero points. I logged on this morning to pick up a hero point at around 7 am and was still able to find someone. I just had to wait for maybe a minute after I arrived at the hero point.

This is not the norm at all.

Raziel.4216:

Empty events? didn’t they fix the megaserver bug?
kitten luck if you still have empty servers

No. Players still focusing in concentrated areas. Some events well populated many completely empty. Mega server is map wide balancing and doesn’t really address players on a map concentrated in specific areas. .

Have a annoying player who’s already beat HoT final boss rambling on in map chat about how they don’t understand all the complaints about the game, etc…? Do this: Ask them to bring over an alt and play with you in Verdant Brink from the beginning of the map. After about 30-45 minutes of constant defeat due to empty events they will eventually get frustrated. If they say anything at all before departing they may suggest you map explore, do adventures or some other approach which of course they never took since they just traveled with the launch heard and blasted though the content.

They will never admit that the experience of trying to get honest XP now from events is ridiculous and broken due to lack of players and content that is largely not soloable without specific classes and builds.

Of course these players don’t give a kitten about your experience or the game in general. Their feelings towards the new content is entirely based on their experience having played from launch and went hard core for the past five days. That’s all they know or care about and now they get to be the ones who tell the world how great it is. It’s misleading of course. They may never admit it but they will probably stop talking about how amazing it is and they probably won’t play on an alt anytime soon. In the back of their mind they are probably thinking “yep, this is exactly why I blasted though everything for the past five days, sucks to be them”

MoonRaiden.7423:

Furajir.3815:

If you are complaining about how small the expension is, at least you got something to do now. You cant tell me you have seen every nook and cranny yet and if you dont care about that, then this is just not your game.

I don’t think you understand what grind is, we are literally doing the same events over and over, that is the equivalent of a grind.

Not even going to respond to him because his counter-points are false. The new maps are small and only about 12% of the total explore area of the core game even considering the vertical/layered aspect. Only portions of each layer are player able area and for many layers it’s a small portion…. How do you stop a player from rushing through such small map content? Grind of course!. I’ve played WoW, I’ve played AION, I’ve played Everquest. It’s the exact same sensation. You’re farming XP for progression. Just because there is an event construct around that grind, it’s still grind and many of us are just going for the random kills because events are empty.

There is no rebuttal of excuse for the Elite Spec unlock either. He goes on about elite skins, etc… Keep the unique skins and mods locked down for progression until end, but not the ability to use the core mechanic of the elite specs. The entire Elite spec trait chain should be available 25-30% in, The unique skins, weapons and armor/weapon mods should be the last thing you have to work for and those should take you up near end-game or even beyond. But to block a player from using something that is an advertised feature of how the game is played uniquely from the core game is complete kitten. No one on this forum as presented a rational counter argument.

Blaeys.3102:

Tapioca.9062:

Awesome.

Now go do it again on ten other characters. From the exact same hero points every single time.

It is actually a lot easier the second, third, etc times through since you have many of the masteries needed to get the easier ones first.

System actually makes a lot of sense – even from an alt perspective.

And you know this because you’ve already unlocked them on how many alts? How many hero points did you have on each of those alts going in? While there is logic in your assessment I don’t believe it comes from experience. You are making an inference. With the current kittened mega-server issues you probably won’t be bringing a alt up to full unlock anytime soon unless you have the 213 hero points coming in on a character and can pick and choose hero points to go after

arakkune.1429:

So thats how long it took me to get my elite spec fully unlocked ( i had 100 hero points before hot). So i dont see why people are complaining I played fairly casually and did most of the events for fun. What i liked mostly about the process of getting hero points is dragon stand’s map-wide event which is a really good example of how playing the game events gets you the hero points u need. So in conclusion thanks anet for making the process of getting my reaper seem rewarding and fun

Congratulations for moving with the herd though the HoT content from launch to finish so quickly. Just to be clear, no you are not a casual player if you’ve gotten as far as you have within 5 days of the game going live. You may believe you are relative to someone who plays literally non-stop and were among the first to finish the HoT content Sunday evening, but the reality is you’re all hard core compared to the player base GW2 core game was designed for as by the tenants of it’s manifesto which preached the philosphy of the design team and why more causal players we should pick GW2 over other MMOS. The company has turned their back on players who bought into their core vision. What a disgrace.

Furajir.3815:

The game has been out for a significant amount of time. Kudos to the Devs first off for making an enjoyable game with tons off added content every few weeks and constant rebalancing to try and get things right.

Now..

IMO this expansion was done half kitten in an attempt to get a quick buck from the consumers. When they first said they would be giving each class and elite spec and “New Weapons” I figured it would be some totally separate entity and NEW weapons, not just unlocking previously existing weapons and giving them to other classes. Like a 2h axe for warrior etc.

Now Elite specs, what a joke, if you REALLY wanted to spice up the game, you should have made it so it was an added FOURTH line to the spec variations to make the other lines stronger, more diversified builds, and more options to the player, not give us a new elite spec that forced us to give up other important lines.

Like Warrior for example, Could be Strength, Arms, Defense, AND BERSERKER. This would have brought the game to a whole new level.

They dropped the ball on this and failed a huge opportunity to really add something different that would have kept people coming back for a long time, not feel like they were lied to for a quick buck on a half kitten expansion.

ArenaNet has some of the very best in the industry. It’s very sad to see them put out a product that was obviously forced to release by a specific date. Without placing blame (because we don’t know who exactly is at fault) it does seem there are huge disconnects between the art, design and writing departments (e.g. Elite Specialization’s cheaply worked into lore but not something core to the story a player experiences… For a reward that is perhaps the most important advertised feature of the game, they make you wait until near end game to achieve you would think they would have at least made it a big event int he game instead of a passive unlock).

What we have in GW2 Heart of Thorns PvE

• Very small amount of new content to explore – even with the vertical aspect the new maps feel small compared to the largest maps of the core game… and there are only three new maps. With HoT we’re only getting about 1/8th or 12% new explorable area compared to the core game See: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zone

• Grind based progression – To slow down a player from running though the new maps quickly (remember there are only 3 and combined they provide may 12% of the the total explore area of the core game) they have put in place systems that force places to do very repetitive things. This is by definition grind. It may be less grindy than other MMOs, that’s subjective but it is grind and that is new to GW2 and anti GW2 manifesto. This sort of tactic is implemented by a developer to save money. Instead of building out more maps they just make you repeat content before progression over a handful of maps. Is that common with other MMOs maybe, but it hasn’t been with GW2 and there are reasons many of us have chosen not to play other MMOs.

• Horrible implementation of core features – Core advertised play mechanic of the game most were excited about (Elite Specialization) not made personal to player, implemented as a passive achievement that occurs near the final boss battle so the player doesn’t even get to play the game with the desired play mechanic. .

• Mega-server algorithms preventing progression – Players coming into Verdant Brink for the first time are encountering events and mobs they can’t solo and are finding a good number of them empty. When you encounter this it’s quite horrible. This is turning the new Mastery unlock tredmill into an overwhelming task. Players are feeling defeated and going to off to do something else in game. Not because they aren’t skilled but because the game is broken

• Full game price – Don’t forgot HoT is an expansion and as ported out a very small one at that. Yet they charged full game price for this product

The composite of the above bullet points makes the PvE side of Heart of Thorns an insurmountable failure. Yes, you have hardcore players who’ve teamed up and done and have just finshed all the content together and they are coming in saying “it’s not so bad” or “it’s perfect” but they are not the average player. They are not the type of player ArenaNet wanted as their base when the core game launched (going by the manifesto). Yes, you had players who moved with the heard from launch last Friday morning until completion. Now hopefully they will go the kitten away.

All that said, the PvP side of HoT is nice. I can also say positive things for that team. The Elite Specializations need a bit of balance work but there is nothing I’ve come across that’s game-breaking in PvP with the new specs and that’s impressive.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

There is a great deal of controversy surrounding mastery and elite spec gating with Heart of Thorns. And here’s what I have to say about it.

Masteries and Elite Specializations are an important compromise.

For the most part I agree about Mastery’s. My main problem with Mastery’s is that there are other issues preventing players from obtaining the XP needed to get them (events void of players, etc…) but the overall design of Mastery’s I don’t have a problem with. You’re right in saying they do provide that progression without level cap increase. That said, there is still grind to get them but maxing them out is optional. With the mega-server problems with balancing play population right now they do feel very much like grind and that needs to be fixed, but the underpinning system is fine.

Since Mastery’s provide that progression path well we don’t need to stack progression with the Elite Specs, at least not in the ridiculous way it’s been implemented

So I do not agree about Elite Specializations. The Elite Specialization is something advertised are a feature of the game not some reward to be obtained near the very end. We;re not talking about a unique skin or weapon/armor upgrade (I am 100% ok with those aspects of the Elite Spec being something you have to work for up until the end) but we’re taking about it being impossible for a player to max out their elite trait line and create a viable build with it prior to end game. We’re talking about that being the case for something that is not a cosmetic achievement but a core functional play mechanic of the expansion. That is beyond ridiculous, it’s asinine. There is no rational explanation. As I’ve said many times PLAYERS WANT TO PLAY THOUGH MOST OF HEART OF THORNS WITH THEIR ELITE SPECIALIZATION NOT GET THEM AS AN END-GAME REWARD.

To take an advertised new play mechanic that for many defines the value of new expanshion and then to make it so most characters can not actually play though the expansion story/ content with that mechanic is completely unacceptable and the worst game design I’ve ever seen.

I continue to challenge ArenaNet to address the question of Elite Spec unlock implementation from the “…end-game reward” perspective and they continue to dodge this question.

Kulvar.1239:

SPOILER

Belinda is a Warrior with a greatsword. Marjory is a Necromancer.
Belinda die. Marjory take her weapon.
Necromancer Elite => Reaper (Greatsword and shouts)

Eir is a Ranger with a longbow. Braham is a Guardian.
Eir die. Braham take her weapon.
Guardien Elite => Dragon Hunter (Longbow and traps)

We have lore <trolling>

That’s not tied to your character in any way. It would be lore, yes but it would not be fusing the Elite Specialization unlock into a players story to feel like an achievement. If what you’ve described is all their is, It’s a very cheap way for a game studio to handle fusing something so core to the expansion into the story. It’s an afterthought approach.

Not fusing this aspect of the game into the lore is horrible. You’re telling me we have to work though the entire game just to unlock them and then when we finally do there is no real purpose in the story tied to them?!?!? How is that good design? What a huge missed opportunity! What a huge disconnect between designers, artist and writers. As an outsider looking in, it sure does seem ArenaNet is quite a mess to have missed this opportunity. What’s more Rytlock is a Warrior and he transiting to a Revenant. So he makes a class change not possible for the player he does not transition to an Elite Specialization (although the way it’s cut together it makes you think that Warrior’s elite spec was originally planned to be Revenant)

The concept of being able to transition your base class into a new specialized class is something AION offered up back in 2010. Even with AION the class transitions were fused into the story. When you transitioned from a Priest to Chanter or Warrior to Templar it was part of the story. Bear in mind AION is considered a grind-fest MMO by many.

I never wanted them auto-unlocked in GW2…. I just expected them to be handled like NCSoft’s AION handles transition from base class to specialization (e.g. Warrior to Templar in that game) unlocked 25-30% in so the player could enjoy 70-75% of the game content with their new class mechanics. Requiring us to play though 75-80% of the the expansion only to get full unlock to make viable build near the very end makes no sense. In multiple threads ArenaNet has been asked to discuss this from a perspective of “why have you chosen to make Elite Specializations and end-game reward instead of something a player can enjoy HoT with” and they have no response.

Chipofsalt.4673:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

It comes down to the majority feeling the Elite Specialization should be something we can enjoy the new content with and play though vs receiving it as an end-game award. The Elite Specialization is irrational as an end-game reward because the Elite Specialization introduces a new play mechanic that’s exclusive to Heart of Thorns. Unique items, skins, etc… make sense are end-game rewards a new play mechanic makes absolutely no sense as a end-game reward. It’s beyond irrational, it’s asinine and horrible design by any game design theory you want to apply.

Given the overwelming anger over this many of us have requested ArenaNet provide some rational as to why they have provided unique play mechanics for each class and then have decided to make locked down until end of game. They have elected not to address this question.

How is it being an end-game reward irrational? It seems more to me that’s your interpretation.

HoT answered many complaints that people had towards vanilla GW2, and that was its lack of endgame content. Now that Anet added an answer to it, people still aren’t satisfied.

Any modern MMO you look at has a similar model. End-game content is largely a grind fest once you learn the mechanics. The issue is more that people feel betrayed that Anet is moving away from catering to casuals.

To address your betrayal point (which is a separate issue)- The anti-casual shift is counter to everything they were preaching to us with the core game lunch. They had a set of tenants that made up their philosophy on how to build a better MMO and they put that into a manifesto and they drove their marketing with it. Over the past few years they have been changing that. HoT’s anti-causal design is a complete about-face and withdraw of their manifesto. It represents a “if you can’t beat them, join them philosophy” attitude in design and it betrayal of every player who has invested time in the game trusting in the integrity of ArenaNet. Having said that it has nothing to do with the irrational design behind Elite Specializations.

Almost every MMO makes you grind, but show me one that makes the end-game reward a core advertised play mechanic. This is different than rolling a new class is WoW and having to level them (and games like WoW give you plenty of options to level quickly)

The Elite Specialization construct doesn’t even exist in that many MMOs, but if you want to draw a comparison, look at another NCSoft game AION. In AION you have to work to unlock your elite specialization but it comes about 25-30% into the game.

That progression is well paced and is about the point in the core GW2 game where a player unlocks their elite skill and finally has their full skill bar. About 25-30% in is where the full Elite Sepcialization (minus the unique skins, and weapon mods) should be available to play. I agree with making players work for it but there’s a huge difference in making most characters have to work though 75-90% of the content in order to create a viable build and utilize the new play mechanic vs making them work though 25-30% of the new content and then allowing them to enjoyu the last 70-75% with the new Elite Specialization. Players who journey into HoT with a character that has the 213 hero points from map competition will get the unlock sooner (~50% of HoT) and they will get to experience a good chunk of the content but they are he exception to the rule not the norm. So when we talk the HoT Elite Specs as end-game awards, we’re talking about for the players who are coming in with less than 100 hero points. They will have to spend 60 just to unlock the empty trait line. It comes down to what is a core play mechanic of the expansion and what isn’t. Your perspective that the Elite Specializations are not something the average character could expect to play though the game with is irrational because it is a new play mechanic that has been advertised as being a big part of the game. There’s not really further discussion to be had if you don’t understand or disagree. I’d can’t respect your opinion on because it doesn’t match any successful pattern I know of. But you are entitled to your opinion.

Chipofsalt.4673:

…
1) You don’t need your elite spec to play through HoT.
.

Clipped everything else from your post because really everything else you say is just to support 1. No one is going to disagree with you. We don’t need our elite specialization to play thoug HoT. It comes down to the majority feeling the Elite Specialization should be something we can enjoy the new content with and play though vs receiving it as an end-game award. The Elite Specialization is irrational as an end-game reward because the Elite Specialization introduces a new play mechanic that’s exclusive to Heart of Thorns. Unique items, skins, etc… make sense are end-game rewards a new play mechanic makes absolutely no sense as a end-game reward. It’s beyond irrational, it’s asinine and horrible design by any game design theory you want to apply.

Given the overwelming anger over this many of us have requested ArenaNet provide some rational as to why they have provided unique play mechanics for each class and then have decided to make locked down until end of game. They have elected not to address this question.

I believe they are avoiding the direct question regarding them being end-game rewards, because they know how irrational this design is. Everyone makes mistakes. Just like gating the story chapters with mastery level was a mistake which they realized and change so is the Elite Specialization unlock. The Elite Specialization unlock implementation a MUCH BIGGER mistake because it takes the aspect of the expansion many of us were looking most forward to obtaining and makes it impossible to play the game with that. It’s not acceptable design. It would at least be nice if ArenaNet would address the community and discuss their rational for the design, but they won’t.

I see the design as an implementation put in place to funnel players to the gem store store for boost items over the next month. It’s likely a strategy for raising profits for the quarter earning report and maximizing the utility of the expansion’s release to achieve that goal. Thinking about it, that is the only rational I can come up with and it’s a really back handed thing to do to your player base if that is in fact what’s going on with it. If they continue to stay silent about it and then a few months down the road it changes we’ll have our answer.

It’s not about what we need and don’t need, it comes down to core game features that alter the play mechanic and add fun/value to the content we were paying for. It comes down to common sense game design decisions regarding what to provide as a reward and when to award it. The arguments come down to a certain group of players who’ve lost the last three days of their lives rushing though the entire expanshion who want to come to forums and scream to the community “I don’t see what the big deal is” or “I love it as it’s implemented because now for rushing the expanshion I get to be the one of a handful of Chronomasters, Druids, etc.. on my server”. Pathetic.

Suggestion to more casual players
Give it so some time and perhaps give the PvE side of the game a rest for now. You can unlock hero points in WvW and you can play with your full Elite Spec in sPvP. There are options to enjoy aspects of the game while the PvE side gets flushed out. If some of these things were implemented to maximize gem store purchase at launch they will eventually change. While I think ArenaNet should address the Elite Specialization unlock questions if it is because of revenue never forget that we get ot play each month for free. So ultimately even if this is a tactic to generate revenue don’t hate on them too until it proves to be long term

The fact that you have to be wearing zerker gear is kittening ridiculous. The community finds an optimal armor config and the publisher decides to make the new content so in order to solo you have to wear the config instead of just nerfing zerker gear. Yeah, that makes so much sense.

Aytheist.9476:

Solo players cannot advance in the new content, and any decent publisher would disclose such a fundamental change prior to taking your money.

No they are not playable solo. The new maps are about the same difficulty as story mode dungeons in the core game. You have to pick your battles and hope there are other players around or you won’t accomplish much. Yes that is not only a fundamental change to the design of the core game, but it also goes against he tenants of the original manifesto that brought many of us into GW2. ArenaNet knows this and they will cower from responding to this thread or any like it because they don’t wan to publicly address this.

What’s more the dynamic events on the new maps are often void of players making the new content unapproachable without a premade party. You have to convince guildies or friends to abandon whatever their goals are to help you. The people praising the design either played in a premade team or were lucky enough to be moving with the heard of players who came in at launch when all the events were full. Of course their experience is a lot different and they are too narrow minded to consider what it’s been like for others or why perhaps their experience was so different.

Nice. The hardcore crowd has already beaten the final boss in HoT three days after release, the causal players are essentially locked out thanks to empty events, etc… Excellent job ArenaNet.

This isn’t a specific bug, but it is a flaw that needs to be addressed in some way. Take a level 80 character and attempt on even a maxed occupancy GW2 server and cross them over to HoT. Observe how empty the tutorial instance is. When you get to Verdant Brink. Try to imagine you’re playing this content for the first time and try to go after the first events available on the map.

The first thing a player is intended to do is unlock level 1 gliding, but when they immediately encounter impossible events due to lack of available players and the unique play mechanics of their Elite Specializations are 380 hero points away, it’s not only overwhelming it’s a very defeating feeling. I’m a member of two casual guilds. We are working adults who play together when we can and just play with whoever is on-line in the area quite often as well. I don’t believe we are all that different than most of your casual and simi-casual base.

Honestly it’s really hard to find the fun right away when there’s noting to make the game feel fresh except for the things you have to work towards and the event needed to complete to gain that XP seem impossible because no one is around.

My request isn’t that you take what I’m saying and act on it, but to go experience this for yourself right now. Play test it live. You’ll find players coming into HoT late Sunday evening and today are having quite a horrible experience due to the overall design. There is very little fun to be had only frustration driving players back to the core game, WvW and PvP aspects.

If this isn’t what you intended you may consider changing some aspects to make it payable. I think this is valid as a “bug report” because unless you intended this to be the experience your entire design is essentially kittened since it leaves the game unplayable to many.

ArenaNet, given the difficulty of the new maps it’s clear players will require a solid build on their character with three specializations chosen and trait lines 100% utilized. Given this and the nature of the Elite Specialization unlock, why have you chosen to make it so the Elite Specialization’s become an end-game reward to the player instead of something unlockable early on?

I don’t think the Elite Specialization should be available right away, but I do think once a player gets 20-25% into the HoT content it should be playable at that point and the effort should be going towards unlocking unique skins, etc… not core play mechanics of the Elite Specialization.

It seems seems very odd to me that you’ve designed it so for most characters we can’t actually enjoy HoT content with the Elite Specializations. Of course no one can make you explain anything, it is your game but will you be willing to at least address this and explain the rational behind your decision to lock out most players from actually playing HoT with their Elite’s

As I roamed around the empty map of Verdant Brink yesterday evening and this morning I couldn’t help but wonder where all the players were and I assume they are attempting to cap all the hero challenges in the game so they can go back and play though the content with the Elite Specializations. Is this what you intended us to do?

Thanks

AlexPort.9204:

after the decision to delete the Itzel IV mastery for the story progression (and I understand that decision, but personally I don’t agree with it just 2 days after release!), pls don’t town the HP needed for the elite specs, and the xp needed for the rest of the masteries down (the tyria masteries are already on farm status thx to CoF 1).

also pls keep the difficulty of the enemys. it’s great to have challenge in the open world! just as the HP challenges! now grouping in the open world has a purpose and a daily hero challenge run with friends is something i’m looking for in the future!

when you do it, you only will dilute your new features and in a few weeks most ppl will again have “nothing to do” and complain about it.

listen to the other (more silent, because they play and have fun) half of the community as well! we are out there and having fun with the game as it is!

don’t change anything! thx!

I’m torn on the mastery’s. Since they are shared between characters I don’t see them as grind. Bring your alt over and work on them and level all alts together. However the Hero Point’s required for the Elite Specializations is complete kitten. The reason being as designed most characters in the game will have to play though almost all of the HoT content before unlocking. The Elite Specializations will be an end-game reward not something available to enjoy HoT with for that character. Who in their right mind would agree with that? All advertising led you to believe you were going to be able to enjoy HoT with the Elite Specializations. To play in level 80 zones you really need full unlock on all your trait lines and that doesn’t come with the Elite Specializations until the very end.

To support leaving the Elite Specialization unlock requirements as-is, is to support the concept of receiving the Elite Specialization as an end-game reward. If some of you see that as ok, then you are entitled to your opinion. Just understand as implemented that’s what they’ve chosen to do.

You would think a new specialization class that introduces new play mechanics and enhances the fun of playing the game would be something unlock able within the first 25% of the game so that the other 75% could be enjoyed with it. Not something that requires 75% of the game to unlock so the last 25% can be enjoyed with it.

Koolaid.9152:

The Elite specialization system and mastery system will be fixed, Give it this week! Trust me. It is difficult for them to get it right on the first go. We will hear responses tomorrow.

I believe Elite Specializations unlock will change in some way. How they implement that change is anyone’s guess. The most straight-forward way would be to simply offer the same hero point scrolls awarded in WvW for a fee in the gem store. Make each 10 point hero challenge scroll 100-gems and you have a system where players must pay 4000 gems to get the 400 hero points. As chance would have it 4000 gems is what a player receives with the Ultimate Edition of Heart of Thorns. So make it so players can upgrade their basic Heart of Thorns account to the Ultimate. Casual players who love them will clearly understand how ArenaNet’s business model and either opt in or leave but at least an option will exit for causal players.

Regard Mastery’s grind and empty events on the HoT maps. I don’t see a change coming. Keep in mind there are only three maps. People have said “they are huge maps” but the first two (haven’t made it to the last yet) really are quite average compared to the core game maps. Even accounting for the vertical/layers. Point is HoT doesn’t really seem to have a lot of new content for PvE. Just three new maps, a dozen or so story instances and about 6-10 dynamic events per map. It’s not a big expansion so they have to compensate for that and make it feel longer than it is. Grinding for mastery’s is the tool they are using to accomplish that. Not sure how they would change this aspect of the game without allowing players to fly though it, but I could be wrong.

gee.9263:

…The expasion is fun and brilliant at the same time, its just a different way of leveling, if the people who are moaning on here, actually spent more time playing instead of qqing, you might suprise yourselves and realise that you are missing out on a great game.

If you want to grind In a different way to gain more levels which then make the work of the past few years useless then I suggest you play something else, where your loyalty to your character only goes as far as the next expansion.

As grandma use to say, “the squeaky wheel gets the grease”.
A few facts about the expansion which explains most of the complaining

• A character going into HoT without map competition will not be able to unlock enough the Elite Specialization trait line to play with the Elite Specialization until near the end of HoT. Most of of us were hoping to play most of HoT with our Elite specialization not earn them an end-game reward. We don’t want full unlock immediately but a much faster pace where we could have them playable for most of the HoT content. As designed we can’t. That is worth complaining about. Unrelentingly if need be.

• People were complaining about gated content and ArenaNet listens, which proves in spite of your thinking that continuing to talk about this issues and complain about problem with the game is bad thing, it’s actually a positive thing for the game. It also proves the game needs some work and ArenaNet is listening trying to rationalize when appropriate to take action. Those who choose not to speak their minds have no voice.

• The new map events are not solo-able forcing. Many events take a mid-size group to complete and often times no players are around for those events. There are a lot of people who play with friends often and have rushed though the content together and they are wondering what all the complaining is about, essentially clueless and unempathtic to those who play the game differently than they do.

• The Mastery system requires players to repeat events to gain XP to level them. As designed it is the first time in GW2 grind has been a requirement of progression. The game was launched with an anti-grind, casual friendly manifesto which this design is counter to. This is why the complaints are valid. If you’ve come recently to GW2 from [name any other MMO here] then you may not get why people are so upset. It’s because we’ve held GW2 to a higher standard than your normal grind everything MMOs. Sadly no it’s just another one of them. If you disagree about the Mastery’s being grind, then you need research what grind is, they absolutely are country to one of the tenants GW2 who created to counter.

• The mega-server balancing algorithm needs to be tweaked to take into account players coming for hero points and the position of they groups on the map. The server population is holding together in small packet to take on events and they are leaving many events void of players.

The solution isn’t to demand that everyone play like you do or stop complaining. Don’t be so narrow minded. GW2 has been home to many casual players and those players are struggling to understand the new PvE content was not created for us.

Xoei.1597:

Had I known that after purchasing HoT you wouldn’t even get the full experience due to locks on mastery skills and what have you, I would have never purchased it. I really don’t want to have to horde Hero Points. I was really expecting to be able to use the new content right off the bat, considering I spent a considerable amount of money on the expansion. When I logged on and saw that I still couldn’t use any of the new weapons for any of my classes, then noticed that you have to grind Hero Points to gain access to such feature, I immediately felt that I just wasted money on something for nothing. Especially since I am a casual player. Sorry, but it’s just not the right thing to do in my opinion, and I feel like I have to rant about it. If you’re going to lock the content, at least make it easier to access.

I don’t understand post like these. You REALLY expected to be able to enjoy the game with your Elite Specialization? You should have known they put all that work and advertising into showing you the new class play mechanics you would have able to have AT THE END of Heart of Thorns. If that seems kitten-backwards, then you just don’t understand good game design. You should have known they were going to reward players who grinded map completion on every character and only those players would be able to experience most of HoT with their Elite Specialization.

Poor kitten, you should have known ArenaNet is not a company you can trust to hold to the tenants of the manifesto they sold is back in 2012, after all that was 2012 and this is 2015. They figured out kittening on the casual player and designing a game for the hardcore, love-to-grind crowd is what keeps players going to the cash shop and flushes out the ones who paid the one time fee believing the utopian dream of “free to play”. They are after all a company in business to make as much money as possible not a company trying to deliver the best MMO experience eon the market. They certainly are not doing the causal players any favors at all.

That’s my take on it anyway. Yes the whole thing is kitten

Knighthonor.4061:

How would you rate the HoT Fun Factor?
10 being the most fun
and 0 being the least fun.

It’s context sensitive question- Playing with friends I’d give it 7.5: When playing with 3-5 in party (guildies, friends) it’s a blast. When playing alone I’d rate it horribly low, maybe a 1.5 (the beautiful maps are worth at least 1.5 even under horrible play conditions) When I sign in and no one I know is on and I have to run around and team up with whoever is on the map it’s a horrible experience. The events I want to do are usually void of players making them impossible. So I just run around the jungle from event to event. When I arrive I have to evaluate if it has enough players to make it worth the effort (since the waypoints are so far apart). It’s very frustrating and not fun at all when you’re going at it alone depending on whoever happens to be on the map. You can spend hours running around not getting any XP.

Because the core game was open world solo-able and the new content drastically changes that aspect of play I think the design is very bad for GW2. It’s a design you would expect from any run-of-the-mill MMO that relies on grind as part of it’s mechanic, but GW2 has been above that. Well, until now. So based on that and ArenaNet not really preparing the players for it, I have to say I’m not a big fan of their design decisions. I think making the Elite Specializations a reward for finishing most of HoT instead of being available to play by the end of the first map is a huge mistake. I think everyone who bought HoT wants to play HoT with their Elite Spec not be awarded their Elite Spec for finishing the game or having to resort to go grind map competition for 30-40 hours in the core game or hero point sin WvW in order to qualify to unlock the Elite Spec early in HoT. You have many horrible design decisions made with this expansion. The only people who should really be praised for their effort are the artist and graphic design team. As usual, they have outdone themselves. The game is beautiful to look at. Unfortunately that does’t make up for some of these design decisions.

I believe the Elite Specializations were advertised as something we play the game with and not and end-game reward and so on those grounds I think the design is deceptive, I also think it’s insulting and disrespectful to the casual fans who bought it thinking they were buying an expansion that held to the same tenants of the core game manifesto. There is zero casual friendly about HoT PvE content.

SkylightMoon.1980:

Has anyone noticed the maps are really empty right now? It almost feels like pre-megaserver. I know a lot of people are still gonan be starting out and exploring verdant brink but auric basin and tangled depths and dragons stand had almost no one in the map. Ive heard a lot of other people have this expereince as well. Whats going on? There has to be at least enough people in some of the later maps for there to be full maps, it makes no sense for there not to be.

Did arenanet change something or potentially accidently screw up the megaserver?

What you’ve said is true. What’s more without enough players around you can’t do anything except map explore to try and find where all the people are.

I don’t think they changed the mega-server. The problem is the mega-server algorithm considers total players on the map. There are probably plenty of players on the Verdant Brink map you’re on, it’s just those players are doing very specific things. They are in team focused on one of the other dozens plus events on the map that you happen to not be at. Or they are camping out at hero challenges waiting for a group to come along.

Really the mega-server algorithm needed to be retooled for the HoT maps to take into account, but it’s a balancing act because too many on a server and performance turns to kitten for everyone.

So it’s the first day after release day and at 11:00 PM CST Verdant Bring was sparingly populated. I spend 15 minutes roaming the map avoiding being taken out by mobs only to chase down three events that didn’t have any players going for them. No new build was ready it’s just players have moved on. Either to the next map or to Halloween or to go do something else all together. Regardless, since the new content is non soloable and guildies had already move past those events I found myself SOL and just signed off. So this is what players are experience on the first new map second day after launch… maybe we all said “good job ANet” just a little too soon.

Took my level 80 Ranger into Torn from the Sky after doing Prolog. Was in party with 1 player who had previously completed Torn from the Sky and one who had not.

Character who had completed it had previously brought over two other characters.
I had previously brought one other character. my master level for HoT 1.5, his 2
The other player was in party with him when she entered the story instance but she on a different map so her icon was blacked out the whole time.

That’s the best way I can descibe the conditions. My ranger is locked out of HoT. I see the map for Vertan Brink uncovered but that first way point is not available to me. I was never teleported to that map. I continously get teleported into the Prolog instance

Yes, I completed the Torn from the Sky mission (crosswords went through shield, mission complete), yes I a elected to continue forward with my story.

How do I bring my Ranger over to HoT? I tried repeating the story at the end the unlock is bugged it still teleports me back to the Prolog starter area.

Thank you ArenaNet! This proves what I have been saying, that you are a company that listens and considers the issues the community raises. The next big one I hope you will address is the Elite Specialization unlock path. I know the argument is tired, but please consider the community’s point. As implemented you have made it so for most characters coming into HoT (including the main character for a good number of us) the Elite Specializations will be a reward for us completing Heart of Thorns. Our trait line uplock only near complete and able to make a viable build right before the end of the game. Did you design the Elite Specializations for us to earn as end-game regard or did you design the Elite Specializations for us to play HoT with them? We were led to believe we were going to be able to play HoT with our Elite Specializations so I hope you can understand why we disapointed you have taken the most exciting part of the game that is core to play mechanic changes and made it an end game award. We just want someone from ArenaNet to properly addresss the question about unlocks from this perspective.

We understand your business model. We understand the company depends on money from the gem store and if we had a gem store option to buy a scroll and unlock a random map hero point, well at least then those of us with really busy schedules would have an option other than grinding though map competition in the core game to enjoy our Elite Spec in HoT. I don’t think anyone wants full Elite Specialization unlock coming into Vertam Brink, but by time we’re done with that first map we should have the full trait line unlocked and be able to at least equipted the weapon and have a viable build going into the last two maps of the game.

We just want the option to play though Heart of Thorns with our Elite Specializations without having to go back to the core game and grind map competition. Is this unreasonable? Is there any middle ground?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Anet wants players to actually play the game? And you’re complaining about that?

I have no words…

Elite Specializations introduce unique play mechanics that are a core part of the HoT expanshion from a play mechanic standpoint. It makes sense most players would prefer a play mechanic aspect of the game to be something available you play the game through with not something you receive as a reward for finishing the game. Those going into HoT whe need the 400 points are looking at a very long grind. Not just for the Hero Points needed (which goes beyond the second map, but also Mastery’s needed to get there.

I realize you see the Elite Specializations as something that should be worked for. I respect that and agree to an extent. Having to finish perhaps 20-25% of the HoT content to do full functional unlock (e.g. all Elite Spec Trail lines and Utility skills, but no elite skins or weapon mods) is acceiptible, but as it’s implemented a player coming in without core game map compleition has to do about 70-75% of the HoT content before being able to construct an effective build for the level 80 maps in HoT. As implemented the Elite Specializations are essentially rewards for finishing HoT and not designed for a player to play though the game with them.

Dear ArenaNet,

Map completion has always been a GW2 achievement. One of many optional achievements players could elect to go after in the game. After completing our personal story and dungeons in the core game many of us did not elect to do map completion because… Well, because it can be quite boring! Although not grind, it’s just not a lot of fun and takes a very long time to complete.

So why have you chosen to make it so players who elected and finished the map completion achievement in the core game are now gifted going into HoT with over half of their Ellie Specialization unlocked?!? These players and only these players are the ones who will get to experience most of the HoT content with their Elite Specialization play mechanic. That is what has so many of us very upset.

Seeing this as a gift to those who elected and performed map competition is just a perspective. Another valid perspective is that you have chosen to punish those who elected to spend their GW2 end-game time in WvW, PvP, Fracticals or one of many other paths other than map competition that you made available to us in the core game and encouraged us to find whatever path was most fun. Why are we now being punished for making a decision other than map completion?

A big part of your marketing for the core game was focused on anti-grind philosophy. Many of us have limited time in game. Many of us picked your game because of the emphasis you put on being casual player friendly. How is punishing players who did not get map competition in the core game in line with the original tenants of your GW2 manifesto?

With other MMOs I would say it’s the sort of thing that should be expected but other MMOs weren’t pulling players in on with a manifesto of building a better MMO for the causal players. Given the original manifesto and the lack of a public amendment to it, as a company do you really believe the Elite Specialization unlock system is just? Is it ethical?

A player who has completed the core game has 214 hero challenge points going into HoT. As implemented,the Elite Specialization unlock will require a player without the 218 hero challenge points to work through map completion of the first two maps of HoT and most of the third map. You’ve designed it so a character who has not done map completion doesn’t really get to make an effective Elite Spec build for level 80 zones until they are over 70% done with the content of HoT!!!! Have you considered that from the perspective of the gamer? Do you see why so many are upset? From our perspective you have made it so the Elite Specialization has become part of our reward for finishing HoT and not a functional part of playing though HoT.

ArenaNet, you have some of the brightest minds in the industry working in your office. Developers, artist, designers, writers people I deeply respect. I’m not a professional game designer, but I have studied game design and read many books on theory of design and I don’t understand something that seems so core to the novelity of the game’s play an end-game reward? Doesn’t the Mastery training offer an excellent progression path on it’s own?. You could have made a big part of the Elite Spec end-game reward. For example the unique skins could have been a progression path that’s available after the entire Elite trait line and utilities are all unlocked.

The bottom line is you could have kept a great deal of achievement based progression on the Elite Specializations and still allowed even players without all the core game hero challenge points the ability to use the unique play mechanics of their elite’s very early on in the game. The only rational I can come to for your decision is that you believe the approach as designed will funnel more players to the gem store/cash shop.

As a casual player I am all for the gem store. I love the gem store, but for a publisher to take the unique and fun play mechanics of a game like HoT and rip them apart and turn them into some end game reward that will just encourage players to grind hero points and xp is just very disappointing.

Heart of Thorns is a beautiful expansion. During the BWEs being able to enter these beautiful maps with unique play mechanics of the Elite’s right away, made it truly feel like a new game. I’m very disappointed you made the decision to take that away from all of us. I don’t think what you’ve chosen is ethical. I think you’ll find in these forms many here don’t either. I hope and trust you will do the right thing and find some way to make so more causal players and players who did not get map competition have some options open to them other than to spend the 30-60 hours needed to run their character around he core game maps doing hero challenges 1 point at a time.

Regards,

A long time fan

roguenub.1409:

It seriously does not take that long.

Says the person who started HoT with a character with 200+ hero points. If you are starting with that going into HoT and you have unlocked all utility skills and trait lines on your main already then no “it seriously doesn’t take that long” to go to 400 points.

If however you have not got map competition (all hero points in core game) unlocked then it’s going to take a ridiculously long time. There are three large maps in HoT. The first one only offers 11 hero challenges (110 of the 400 points you’ll need). As implemented the unlock Elite Specialization mechanic rewards playing who specifically decided to go after hero point challenges/map competition and allows them to apply the award from that effort (unused hero points) to the Elite Spec. That’s not good design. GW2 has also held to being “the casual players MMO” given the group of GW1 players who went after map competition 50% of the Elite Specialization unlock is not right. Even players who have map competition on their main are upset over this requirement for their alts.

The big difference between Elite Spec progression and the core game progression is that in the core game it made sense to unlock utility skills over time. Your character is not yet level 80. You weren’t in level 80 zones. In HoT your Elite Specialization is useless with the 60 hero point unlock. You can equipt your new weapon and you have access to the play mechanics but with 200+ more points to max the trait line, the Elite Spec is useless to you in level 80 zones and the utilities are also locked. So coming into HoT without map competition you’re going to be 70%+ into the HoT content and done with the first two maps before you can begin using the Elite Specialization. So you’re wrong for many it actually REALLY DOES TAKE A LONG TIME

Manvaeris.9857:

Hi everyone,

I just started playing the expansion and I am curious if I get things right about mastery points.

1. There are 3 mastery-lines for Central Tyria (pact commander, legendary crafting, fractal attunement) and 4 for Heart of Maguuma (gliding, Itzel lore, Exalted lore and Nuhoch lore)

2. If I want to level one of these, I need to gain experience either in Central Tyria or in Heart of Maguuma, depends on which mastery line I would like to do. So I can not level the Central Tyria masteries while playing Heart of Maguuma and the other way round

3. I can NOT level any of them in WvW, EotM, PvP or in instances like the mad kings labyrinth. I also assume XP from dungeons, fractals and raids don’t count aswell, but I haven’t test it.

If my summary is correct, then I wonder if it was intended, that people need to grind hours and hours for XP on the old maps.

Please correct me, if I misunderstood something or if there is something I didn’t though about.

Greetings, Manvva

In most aspects HoT has tossed aside the anti-grind tenants of the core game manifesto. Grind is a core part of HoT. Most MMO players don’t mind grind they just hate when others use the word grind because it implies they don’t want to believe they are doing hours and hours of repetitive content because it’s the most optimal approach to getting to their in-game goals. They are try to argue that since they are having fun it’s not grind, but that’s not true.. They’ve just found a way to enjoy the grind. Playing with friends on Mumble, TS, etc helps a great deal. Then you at least get the social aspect of the game as you work on leveling up whatever’s next on your list.

To be fair to ArenaNet we got to this point because the ugly truth is an anti-grind MMO just didn’t work. Most of the concepts that distinguished this game in the manifesto have been converted to more traditional mechanics.

Since the Revenant’s utility skills are tied to Revenant Stace and we only have four stances to unlock how much will these cost in hero points? Has this been discussed?

Tapioca.9062:

I’ll be in Maguuma farming hero points.

This is where most of the game population will be for weeks after launch… In the grind fest. Meanwhile players actually trying to play the game are alone in the jungle and keep getting taken out by empty events. Mega-server won’t help because players will be on the map just not giving a kitten about anything except “where is my next hero challenge”. This is how we’re suppose to play it, I guess…

Ranatoa.4869:

No, the gem store only offers cosmetics and convenience items. Changing that would change the game and not in a good way.

I see the Hero Points for money as something they should strongly consider given how the new model punishes those who have not done world competition on the character they are seeking unlock for and it rewards those who have. World competition (or specifically the hero challenge aspect of it) was never advertised to play a role in Elite Spec unlock and has always been an optional achievement for achievement seekers who enjoy running around the game world doing everything. For many of us that really isn’t fun so we’ve gone to other parts of the game as our end-game doing WvW or PvP. For making that choice we are now being punished in HoT as we watch those who made the map completion achievement choice get to unlock their full elite trait line just a few hero challenges into HoT. How is that fair?

In WvW hero points can earned though a scroll or tome item purchased at a vendor. It unlocks “one random hero point on the map it is designated to” such an item could easily be placed in the cash shop. The Mastery’s are the progression system in GW2, it doesn’t need Mastery + Elite Spec to both be tied to some achievement (especially not tied to past achievement never associated with it) making a gem store item available to unlock the hero points would help balance things for the more casual players.

Sizer.3987:

Not sure why everyone is so kittened at elite specs actually requiring stuff to unlock. Its not like when you bought the base game you got a free level 80 with all your traits unlocked and could do lvl 80 content the first hour. Yet suddenly people feel like they should be able to unlock everything in HOT in the first day? Odd.

Anyway, I second the OP, even though no one takes the forum trolls very seriously (though they are entertaining) someone has got to post something positive every once in a while.

It’s been exhaustively discussed in the other thread…. It’s entirely different than working your way to 80 in the base game…. No one is asking for “full unlock” (elite skins, weapon mods, etc…) we’re fine working for the parts of it that make sense as being horizontal progression based, we just want to be able to enjoy the core mechanics of the Elite Specs and make a viable Elite Spec build and play though most of HoT content enjoying our Elite Spec. Unlocking utility skills along the way. As they have it implemented someone who has spent all their hero points coming into HoT will not have the trait line maxed until somewhere around 65-70% of the content has been played (two maps worth of hero point gathering in HoT). That will drive many players to focus exclusively on grinding hero points instead of playing the game and we feel this is bad for the game in general not just us. The opposition is grossly misunderstanding what the casual base is asking for. We just don’t want to make it though most of the game before we’re finally able to use the Elite Spec while those who grinded their way through world completion in the core game get to enjoy it long before us. That that goes against the vision of GW2 being anti-grind and casual friendly. I know they will do the right thing in the end. If you want to debate this more we can pick it up in the appropriate thread.

Thank you ANet. I’m very disappointment about Elite specs unlock req and feel everyone should be able to play with these from the start but I understand you are a business and have to do things to funnel us to the cash shop sometimes. That said, there’s still a lot I’m looking forward to and I realize behind all of the crunch time are employees who have had to sacrifice time with family and friends to get your team to the finish line and give us the starting line.

Please reconsider the casual GW2 player and the tenants of your original manifesto and the vision behind it regarding being a game for everyone from the high school kid playing with friends after school to the investment banker who grew up on games and loves to spend to occasionally spend his free time in GW2. We all come from different places in life and some of us have more money than time to spend in game and would be willing to pay to unlock the hero points to get our Elites. You’ve already got the mechanic for this banked into WvW please consider making a similar item for the gem store so those of us who have more money than time don’t have to waituntil 2016 to make a viable build to play our Elite Specs in Hot.

Congratulations on product delivery and meeting your deadline. If you do consider making a hero challenge point unlock available though Black Lion Trading Compnay, please keep in mind you have many working adults who love your game who are just requesting this so we can spend time with our family and friends and still not feel left behind in the game. It’s the right thing to do and I have faith you will ultimately do the right thing.

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

I would argue that HoT is designed to help progress characters and that building an elite spec is part of character progression. Just as you couldn’t walk out of the human starter instance as a level 80 with full access to skills and traits at the beginning of GW2, so too you cannot walk out of the Silverwastes starter map into Verdant Brink with a fully powered elite spec. The parallel is quite obvious and something that makes sense tbh.

Right….. You feel the Elite spec should be an in game progression and you are 100% ok with players who have no done map completion in core game on a character having to wait until they are almost done with HoT in order to be able to use the Elite Spec.

You’re analogy to human starter area with level 80 is deeply flawed. It comes down to size of the game world and time it takes to unlock things. A new character in GW2 can get all weapon skills unlocked by level 4 or 5. It doesn’t take long because these weapon skills are part of the core mechanic. Now a low level character does not have access to full trait path unlock but they are on starter maps so they don’t NEED that. They play mechanics are there by level 10 with full skill bar unlock by 30. Given the number of maps in GW2 core game you could say by time a player has made it though 15% of the game they have all play mechanics unlocked and by around 20% you have the full bar. From that point on you are just making choices about what else to unlock.

Juxtapose GW2 Heart of Thorns and players who only go into the game with 0-60 hero points are looking at not being able to even use the new Elite weapon skills until they around 70% done with the game. So it is really entirely different.

Where does the 70% come from? You’ll need ~200 hero points to unlock full Elite trait line to make a viable build. Hot has 400 hero points in total spanning over 3 maps. We have been told expect to have to have mastery unlocked before progressing to 2nd, 3rd map. So while it took the casual player in GW2 perhaps a week to get their full skill bar unlocked, casual player in HoT is looking at probably months before being able to max the trait chain and make a usable build with their Elite Spec.

It’s entirely different.

xBlack.4897:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Swagger.1459:

Full elite unlock- 4000 gems

You’re welcome devs and players for this awesome idea!!!

Something a bit more balanced and realistic would be 100 gems for a Hero Challenge Tome of [HoT map name here]. The tome would unlock a random hero challenge point on the map. These items have already been coded for WvW so creating a gem store tome to accomplish the same thing would be trivial.

$10 = 800 gems = 80 hero points
$20 = 1600 gems = 160 hero points
…
$50 = 4000 gems = 400 hero points

Considering how many players will want to roll a Reveneant and NOT go core game map competition on him this is an easy cash grab for ArenaNet. We’re all so upset over the cost of Elite Spec unlock we’d be thankful for them to take our money to let us have the Elite Spec unlocked for $50 at this point.

Doing this would be in-line with the original manifesto of keeping GW2 causal friendly. It will also help eliminate the grind for hero points. ’

Reasons why my suggestion is good

• Utilizes existing code for it’s unlock mechanic, creating a gem store counterpart to an existing in-game item should be a very trivial task for the developers to get this in the gem store immediately

• Scales to meet players hero point needs so it aids all players willing to pull out the mastercard. Doesn’t matter if you need 100 hero points or 400 this system would give you an option to buy vs grind which again was part of the original GW2 manifesto to keep the game accessible to those who have a life outside he game.

• Gives ArenaNet a simple way to turn this problem so many are complaining about into an immediate strong revenue stream (some players will shell out $50 for the 400 hero points, essentially buying the game twice)

• All the rage in these threads helps ArenaNet justify the gem store items. If people scream “what I’m having to pay for the game over again” ArenaNet can simply point out the new items are a way for more casual players to obtain what those who did map competition worked so hard to get right away. They can point back to these forums as their reasoning and be off the hook entirely.

It is a win-win

Do you seriously give an elite specialization unlock the Same Value of the whole expansion ?

Yes. In the free market something is worth what people are willing to pay for it. Look at the gem store cost of boost items. 100 for a random 10 hero point challenge unlock is really not that bad and in-line with other pricing. I don’t think they are going to budge on just giving us the Elite Spec so by offering gem store suggestions we are trying to find a point of compromise that benefits ArenaNet but also keeps the more casual players from getting left out in the cols.