Guild Wars 2

Manuhell.2759:

If anyone but (some) thieves find stealth’s implementation in this game is terrible, maybe it isn’t a matter of “learning to play”.

And maybe the opposite is also true – those thieves don’t want stealth nerfed because they wouldn’t be able to play without it.

Still, imho, all those issues with thieves’ balancing stem from the initiative system itself. As balancing skills that are free (to a certain degree) of being spammed, as well as always selectable, isn’t easy at all. Especially when we aren’t considered a limited mode like PvP, that plays with its own rules. But i’m OT about that, anyway.

many of us thieves think stealth is ridiculously broken in this game. the vocal few who want to preserve the status quo are who you mostly see on the forums.

Lol. My thief does damage in stealth or in near stealth. At some point of split second re stealthing, it’s the same thing.

MrAmputatoes.6031:

Creating additional counter play skills to stealth would make 1/2 our build obsolete. These kind of suggestions would be akin to asking for specfic counters to illusion, shouts, signets, traps, ect. (i.e. "warriors regen is rediculous, we need a skill to stop signet passives for 10s) Its nothing but players refusing to learn a portion of the game. They refuse to better themselves because the lost in a rock paper scissors.

Lol those things can be countered. I find that stealth cannot!

Cynz.9437:

i find this suggestions pointless unless you add suggestions to severly nerf other classes to make it fair

thieves are already considered bottom tier in pvp (yes few teams run 1 but nobody would consider to bring more, same goes for pve too btw), let’s beat the dead horse

I find my thief quite easy to play in WvWvW, so perhaps the problem is balancing the game around Spvp?

also, full heals and condition removal with faster movement while in stealth make it a pretty easy mechanic for my thief. Laughably easy in fact.

Lol. As many of us have been saying…..easily done.

Tell you what. You pay for their game purchase and gems, then you can tell the zerglings what to do.

I prefer zerging down soloers in wvw. so fun to get the hate whispers when i join their groups.

Many of my fellow thieves simply want easy mode. As a thief I find our access to on-demand perma stealth laughably easy since I can engage multiple enemies at once, pop stealth and watch them flail in the air. There are no counters. Some of us would like a bigger challlenge. My recommendation is to prevent re-entering stealth once you are in combat just as other highly successful MMOs do. It’s pretty simple.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sanduskel.1850:

Incurafy.6329:

How many times does it have to be said? D/P pseudo-permastealth was already nerfed on the 10th of Dec and it is now impossible to maintain it without the use of utilities with lengthy cooldowns. In fact, maintaining it while doing noticeable damage is close to impossible.

It’s actually easier now lol

This is entirely false. If you’re unwilling to post a video showing us how easy it is for you to perma-stealth like D/P did pre Dec 10th, you’re just spreading lies.

Lol go google it on Youtube, buddy. Very easy to do. Nothing got nerfed!

Cynz.9437:

i hope you realize that thieves don’t have any survivability outside of moblity and stealth…. they don’t have real stability, they don’t have blocks nor invul, their heals are pretty bad too….

if you gonna ask for such changes you might as well ask for thief changes to remove protection and ignore invulnerability on each dagger strike just to make it fair

yes they do. thieves can spec to be as good defensively as most other classes.

Arrow.4619:

Sanduskel.1850:

Yes, of course this class can survive more nerfs. It remains the best roaming wvw class, bar none, already.

Its already the least played class. More nerfs of any kind will simply push it further and further into obscurity. Very good players will continue to play it but at some point even most of them will only play it in more limited ways and use it in only limited roles. As someone mention it makes a great harvesting character which deserves a “lol” in that he statement is so sad but true its not funny. Modestly skilled to good players will walk away from it in mass – in fact they already have.

I think the real question is: At what point does working harder than any other class for the same reward stop being “rewarding” and become “foolish”?

I disagree. There are many thieves roaming in wvw, and the map chat is full of venom and hatred against our class. I dont think we have to work harder than any other class in wvw. On demand stealth makes the class quite easy imho. Thieves are without a doubt the most powerful roaming class in wvw, and they do well in zergs if played correctly.

Yes, of course this class can survive more nerfs. It remains the best roaming wvw class, bar none, already.

Dawdler.8521:

vincecontix.1264:

Before we continue any further what in your mind is the strongest 1v1 profession. Do you believe a thief brings more to a small man roaming group than guards, wars, or necros?

Define small man?

Yesterday I was raiding mostly, but many times we ran past 2 theives that we saw during the evening. They where always running together and they where always “fighting” a single player.

“fighting” being a relative term here, since it was them popping up from nowhere, stun, wham bam thank you mam in less than a second with quadrouple daggers and then they disappear again, followed by a stealth stomp, them appearing for 1 second and then they where gone again only to be seen some 30m away (for about 1 second before they where out of rendering range and/or stealthed again, hard to tell).

They seemed to be doing pretty fine in a small 2 man roaming group. I doubt they even died once. Or got hurt for that matter.

I can survive any small man fight I wish and frankly any zerg fight. With on-demand perma stealth, it’s quite easy on my thief. You just need to watch where the enemy aoes.

Docherty knows what he is talking about as does Piogre. Personal attacks get you nowhere other than a ban. Try to be constructive, fellas.

Buff thieves… please.

Docherty.8372:

Zero Day.2594:

Docherty.8372:

…
and the increased base initiative regen has only enabled a higher degree of stealth spam during combat.

?
lolowut
?

Yeah, by increasing the base intitiative regeneration by approximately 40% allows the Thief to enter stealth via Heartseeker/Clusterbomb more often – I’d estimate by about 40% – is there something about this you’re having difficulty understanding, with the mathematics?

I’m amazed that you actually edited that in there… seek help

As anet said, it was a MASSIVE buff. Some thieves just don’t know it enough to utilize it.

Zero Day.2594:

Man did you not scroll down the forums… and see the Nerf Wish List? That’s meant for threads like this….
Fear not I will add your post to it (in 5 minutes).

Btw perma-stealth exploit build (as some would explicitly call it), took a big hit on Dec 10.

Not really. With higher initiative regeneration rates, it’s easier now for me, lol.

Cactus.2710:

Forzani.2584:

Cactus.2710:

Forzani.2584:

gwfanboy.2496:

SoLeciTO.3490:

If you all want to be objective you must provide numbers or examples to the table.

These are examples of how OP can be any class . . . the people here complaining about thieves has no objective points . . they are just angry because they still do not how to deal with thieves.

Warrio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiXhgsfoL6c

Mesmer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54UCCEinT5o

Engi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Zy5cANG4Hk

Guardian:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw6bMD5z6bM

Necro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfGdT896JZ8

Ranger:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCBjuXKbqQM

Also here is a link of a thread talking of wich profession is the most hard to play against.

Is funny how Sanduskel and Burnfall are basically the only ones again attacking the profession.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Strongest-1-vs-1-class

I invite you to use the time you expend here in the forums learning the mechanics and improve your game play instead.

Sorry for my bad english i try my best.

That’s because the non thief pvpers who want some balanced pvp were ignored since launch so they ditched the game.

Have you noticed a significant decline in pvp skill level in spvp and wvw recently? Yea..

That’s what happens when you ignore your customers’ valid complaints. Favor a minority of people who are after the next fotm and you lose the majority. Brilliant tactic.

100% true. The WvW chat channel is always filled with people complaining about Thieves. No other class produces the amount of frustration and anger to the player base. Most bit the bullet thinking that Anet would make some much needed adjustments. They haven’t, so I agree it has forced people out of WvW …or into zerg blobs only.

The majority of those chat comments (as well as half the comments on these forums) are about how annoying thieves are because they can’t be seen and they can be so evasive, not because they got killed by one. Burst thieves are indeed powerful 1v1, but thieves in general pretty much suck in a group battle as countless posts here have also pointed out. *Situational disparity exists in almost every game … it’s what makes you actually have to think. Try it.

Annoying does not equal overpowered or broken. Read the frigging GW2 thief class description and educate yourself*

You can try and justify it and make excuses. It’s really very simple. People play to have fun. If they have fun, they continue to play. If they don’t have fun, they leave….and what many don’t want to accept. We don’t all lose every fight to thieves. There are 3 common outcomes. 1. Thief wins. 2. Opponent is winning but thief stealths and runs away. 3. Thief makes a mistake and opponent actually wins.

All 3 scenarios are not fun for the non thief. Even after beating a thief I am ready to log off in frustration. It’s not fun.

Maybe you educate yourself and see what every game in existence does when their customer base isn’t having fun. They try and fix it.

LOL. Yeah … because I have so much fun being chain stunned and AoE’d to death in any large fight that I don’t run away from. As I said, every decent game, including this one with all its many warts, involves situational disparity and situational recognition. You may suck against a thief 1v1 but you’ll almost be certain to share his loot bag in a group. There are many, many reasons why I will probably abandon GW2 once a decent alternative comes along, but the fact that I can eat some other class’ lunch in certain situations while that same person/class can eat mine in a different situation is not one of them.

As for the WvW devs fixing anything in this game, good luck with that.

I agree that eventually a group will be able to kill me thief. Particularly in tight spaces with them flailing around, I am bound to get hit by a few. That’s why I prefer wvw in wide open terrain.

I think that the best solution for stealth would be to prevent stealthing while in combat. It would actually make playing my thief more challenging since I’d have to think about attacking.

There’s a thread in the thief forums teaching people how to one shot enemies with their thief. Three shotting seems trivial.

Incurafy.6329:

How many times does it have to be said? D/P pseudo-permastealth was already nerfed on the 10th of Dec and it is now impossible to maintain it without the use of utilities with lengthy cooldowns. In fact, maintaining it while doing noticeable damage is close to impossible.

It’s actually easier now lol

Stealth is very poorly designed in this game, making this class laughably easy. I encourage you to send respectful and persistent feedback to anet and NCSoft. Perhaps they will change stealth so that the thief class can get other fixes it dearly needs. Right now, the player base will revolt if thieves get buffed.

Warhawk.7095:

LightningBlaze.4913:

johnnymiller.5968:

I think highly skilled thieves are almost impossible to counter. One took 5 of us out in approximately a minute in SM today. We all knew the thief was there but had no answer – one or two hits & you were down then the thief vanished before anyone could try & counter. Should their stealth skills be nerfed? I don’t know. Are they any worse than the op hammer wielding opponents or any other perceived op classes?

There is no such thing as player skills when playing as thief. It is that easy to play it “effectively”.

That is a laughable sentiment..

I know a “good” thief from a “bad” thief in about the first 2 seconds of a fight, and there are alot more of the latter.

Well he’s correct. It’s very easy to play a thief and do well.

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Beating a dead horse..

BUT since I can’t resist, I will elaborate…

1.) “Perma-stealth” as it is so irritatingly called, already got nerfed.
2.) “Revealed” debuff lasts longer in sPvP and you can not pull off the BP + HS combo while IN combat as often as you can in something like WvW.
3.) Black Powder + HS combo is not Heartseeker spam.
4.) Getting hit by 2 heartseekers in a row is not Hearseeker spam.
5.) Heartseeker spam is not difficult to counter.
6.) Heartseeker spam works on people who don’t counter it.
7.) So does power/deathshroud lifeblast necro.
8.) Dancing Dagger isn’t used because it sucks, not because we have to press 4 instead of 2.

There was already a thread about this recently, and many thieves (myself included) just don’t use the “spam HS tactic” because we find it largely ineffective.

Arguments can be made from both sides.. In sPvP before, I literally got called a “heartseeker spammer” because I used heartseeker ONCE to finish a guy off who tried running at 20% HP..

I mean no offense to you whatsoever. I see what you are saying but the fact is thieves do not need more nerfs. Heartseeker spamming is a lame tactic that works but USUALLY only “works” if you let it. There are so many counters: Fear/Knockback/Immob/Blind/Chill<-ESPECIALLY chill that you can utilize to prevent getting killed by it. Then once the spammer is out of initiative they’re pretty EZ kills.

Lol, as someone who has used it, perma stealth is alive and well, trust me. It’s even easier now with improved initiative regeneration.

If you ever want the ridiculous on demand perma stealth to change, please submit persistant, respectful and frequent feedback to anet. They need to hear the voice of the players. Id personally like to have a more challenging experience on my thief.

As a thief, I think the best solution would be to prevent stealthing while in combat. It would make this class much more challenging and fun to play.

Incurafy.6329:

Sanduskel.1850:

I have several thieves and I agree that stealth is laughably broken in this game. I find it ridiculously easy to down multiple enemies due to my ability to perma stealth at will after the last patch. Anet made it much easier to perma stealth, the opposite of what many of we thieves wanted. I strongly encourage that you persistantly send respectful feedback to ANET about the ability to stealth while in combat. I would like me thieves to offer a challenge again.

This is a blatant lie, it’s now harder to gain pseudopermenant stealth than before the patch.

Also, I seriously can’t believe the amount of people in this thread who haven’t even played a Thief commenting on what a Thief does and how. Half of you haven’t heard of the revealed debuff and the other half doesn’t even know how long Thieves can stay in stealth for in reality.

This isn’t a lie at all. I now find permastealth to be much easier than prior to the dec 10th patch. That’s because we got higher initiative regeneration. That is a fact.

Warhawk.7095:

I’ll just drop this off here:

A thief wouldn’t have to stealth so much if they had literally any other abilities to survive a fight.

Instead of another thread about just crying calling for nerfs, I propose that for every ability you suggest they REMOVE from the thief, that you suggest the specific CREATION of another viable skill to make up for it.

I’m a thief and I’d love to fight face to face… …if the game gave me any of the tools needed to win a fight that way.

this is a common misperception. Thieves who die quickly spec to die quickly. thieves can spec to survive quite well without stealth. they have great evades and can spec to have decent armor.

As a thief player let me assure you that perma stealth was improved as of the dec 10th patch, lol. we got more initiative regen.

Monoman.2068:

I do agree that there needs to be more counter play to stealth, but I hope anet gives thieves a roll in this game independent of this cheesy gimmick first. Even stealth on mesmers is too much since you are forced to either use ranged channeled/aoe attacks to maintain pressure (if you can predict where he is properly) or sit amongst a bunch of terrible ai applying conditions on you while the mesmer repositions.

I play multiple thieves, and I admit that it’s horrifically op’d. Its a badly broken mechanic. Most thieves won’t admit it because they enjoy the ability to perma stealth on demand anytime a fight isn’t going their way. I recognize that this is inherently imbalanced. I strongly encourage those of you who agree with me to send persistant and respectful feedback on this badly broken mechanic. Most mmos don’t allow stealthing while in combat exactly because it imbalances games. Anet tried to be different. usually being different is good. not with regard to stealth though.

regard.

Sanduskel, proud owner of 5 thief alts.

So a bg player complaining about others’ zergs? You do realize that your server has the most players, right?

I have several thieves and I agree that stealth is laughably broken in this game. I find it ridiculously easy to down multiple enemies due to my ability to perma stealth at will after the last patch. Anet made it much easier to perma stealth, the opposite of what many of we thieves wanted. I strongly encourage that you persistantly send respectful feedback to ANET about the ability to stealth while in combat. I would like me thieves to offer a challenge again.

stealth traps, lol. it’s cute when people place those thinking that we thieves cannot see them being placed. I have nver hit one of those. it’s so obvious where they are being placed.

As a thief who focuses on wvw, i can admit that stealth is laughably op’d in this game. I can stealth at will, completely heal, cleanse conditions, regain initiative and reposition. I can sit back and watch my multiple enemies flail at open air. It makes this class easy mode. I wish ANET would prevent stealthing while in combat to make this class more challenging.

Best class: thief
why: highest dps and can perma stealth on demand.

As a thief I would appreciate hard counters to stealth. I simply find it laughably easy to win in wvw with perma stealth on demand. If i start to lose, I simply poof in the middle of the fight, watch my enemies flail around, heal up then return to kill my enemies. I’d like a little more of a challenge. Bring it on <3

the problem is that you assume zero lag. Thieves benefit from lag more than any other class. I’ve seen enemies unresponsive to my burst thief simply because all 4 hits land at once from their perspective. they tell me later that it looks as though they got hit for 20k all at once. you cannot respond to that. sorry.

Arcuss.6457:

are you people still on this? get over it, and learn to counter. Thieves aren’t going anywhere.

I hope not. I do hope that they fix on demand perma stealth so that our class can be improved in other ways.

Well I do hope that they found me! I am not trying to be mean to anyone. I simply speak the truth since I believe in a balanced game.

lol. Never said i was a great thief. In fact, I am terrible at games like these, but I find my thief quite easy. That should say a lot, lol.

I simply tell the truth. Perma stealth at will is terribly imbalanced, and it drives anet to constantly nerf my class. They should eliminate the ability to stealth while in combat and give us other benefits instead. I am tired of everyone jumping on my corpse and spam emoting me simply because I am a thief. I tire of my own server constantly berating me for playing a skilless class. I cant disagree because perma stealth is ridiculous. Don’t tell me that it’s no longer possible. It is and easier than ever thanks to the init buff Anet gave us.

Zacchary.6183:

Then you two are apparently not killing fast enough. Perhaps lay off the toughness stacking a little?

EDIT: It would also help to lay off all the bunker traits as well. With some power, pressure and a little knowledge anyone can down or repel a thief easily.

I think you are confused. I don’t have problems with warriors, lol.

Zacchary.6183:

Sanduskel.1850:

We thieves are the only class that can be glass cannons and not suffer the consequences. That’s bad design.

Don’t you mean warriors?

Lol nope. Glass cannon warrior die quickly. I can easily 3 shot them with my thief.

This would be immensely op’d. We have stealth on demand to avoid damage and cc’s. this isnt necessary. All classes must make tradeoffs. we are no different.

We thieves are the only class that can be glass cannons and not suffer the consequences. That’s bad design.

having 1700 toughness isn’t glass cannon by a far shot.

Anet needs to redesign stealth completely. the ability to steath during combat is a terrible design principle and it causes infinite rage in wvw. I am tired of being spam emoted, etc because players rightfully hate how stealth was done in this game. If you want anything to be improved for thieves, plead with anet to overhaul stealth. It’s a broken mechanice that allows abuse and encourages hatred for our class. With balanced stealth, other improvements can be made to make this class more enjoyable.

I think what enrages people about my class is our ability to stealth whenever we are in trouble and our ability to hit harder than any other class. Add to that the ability to move faster especially in stealth, and you get rage. Personally, I think it was a huge mistake to allow stealthing while in combat. It makes it so easy for me to kill enemies without any risk. However, I tired of being hated for my class mechanics. All I hear in chat is hatred for my class it gets old.

I can’t recall when I last lost to an engineer on my thief. They simply can’t keep up with the dps from out of no where. Easy to kite too.

Amurond.4590:

This was before I changed my build, I think I had around 1700 toughness. He had stacks and food iirc, was like 2 months ago

not even mad

I’m a thief and I agree with you. I can 2 round rangers all day long in wvw. I feel bad for the rangers. Neither they nor their pets ever see me. I encourage you to send respectful, clear and persistant feedback to ANET. I think that PVE is their strength though. They haven’t demonstrated an ability to balance wvw.

So easy to kill enemies on my thief. Everytime I am in trouble, poof I vanish, heal up, remove conditions and jump right back on the enemy. The enemy swings the sword into thin air. It’s a great class for wvw.