Guild Wars 2

I haven’t actually used the losing streak bonus because I’m awesome and never lose I haven’t really played enough. It seems odd if it’s exploitable like that.

Why not, instead of a losing streak bonus, build it so that if you are working your way back towards a tier checkpoint you have already completed (so basically, you lost pips in Ruby or higher), you get extra pips?

velmeister.4187:

Pro PvPers claim they do not PvE because its boring, does not suit their personality, <insert any other excuse as you please>.

Who exactly? Can you provide quotes?

velmeister.4187:

Then why on God’s good kittening earth would a pro PvPer want a legendary backpiece that has absolutely no direct value to any PvPer who does not PvE? It just does not make any sense.

Because it looks snazzy and we are playing Fashion Wars 2.

velmeister.4187:

The simple fact is that ANET wanted to make PvP popular among its playerbase majority of who really do not give a kitten about PvP and so, they introduced an item that has only value in PvE and completely unobtainable thru PvE in this league reward system.

But an analogous item, Ad Infinitum, is available exclusively through PvE content. It provides every mechanical benefit The Ascension does.

On the one hand, yes, matchmaking will occasionally give you a bad team and in reality you have almost no chance of winning.

But on the other hand, the only constant in your games is you. If you are repeatedly losing and repeatedly not performing well, you can’t really blame your team.

Saiyan.1704:

I just didn’t realize The Ascention achievements until recently so i’m going to grind to legendary first then switch classes because… i’m already sapphire and I don’t want to lose any pips. I’m going to lose more regardless… might as well start losing where it doesn’t matter.

Yeah, I had the same problem last season. I got into a decent set of pugs and shot right through Emerald and Sapphire before realizing that the class achievements existed, and being in Ruby at that point you couldn’t really play around at that point.

Keep in mind that the main limiters for pushing your achievements will be the 3-games-a-day and push-x-tiers, and those are both achievements that will push through the different parts of the Ascension achievements regardless of whether you have completed the rest of the meta achievement. So long as you’re completing those two achievements, you will be able to come back in the next 2 (I think) seasons and clean up the rest of what you need for Ascension

I use Power MM Reaper

Death top line
Blood bottom/mid/bottom
Reaper top line

Axe/horn, Greatsword
Zerker’s gear

Stick “Rise!” onto your bar and then fill the rest of the slots with your favorite minions. Minions have enough toughness to hold aggro from you and they take almost no damage from AoE attacks.

The greatsword will put out massive damage. You may want to swap the axe with a dagger but personally I prefer the axe just for a bit of kiting ability.

Saiyan.1704:

So I realized a few days ago that there’s quite a long list for The Ascension legendary backpiece. Notably the “Multiclass” achievements needed in the Competition tab – Year of the Ascension. You basically have to play Ranked with every class to earn these 1 through 5 (long list) of achievements.

You only have to complete 2 class achievements for part 1 and 3 class achievements for part 2-4. While it may be a bit rough to get those, personally I’ve had very little trouble getting my P2 achievements playing relatively oddball specs (PU mes, Juggernaut Scrapper, Venomshare DD) supplemented by my main (Power MM).

Saiyan.1704:

These multiclass achievement forces players, most notably PvE players, to choose classes they don’t normally play (or ever play) for Ranked PvP. Granted, they’re all in Amber & Emerald Divisions but players who stick to one class grinding it out to Legendary are forced to queue with these players who normally don’t main a certain class due to The Ascension achievements.

Firstly, the Ascension is not targeted towards PvE players. While that isn’t to say they can’t participate, they should be required to follow the targets that are set for PvP players.

Secondly, if someone is playing one class ad infinitum in low leagues, then they should very swiftly get very good at that class and the matchmaking will give them enough matches in their favor or balanced matches that they can quickly push through to Sapphire and Ruby.

Saiyan.1704:

So we’re literally seeing

Well, yes.

Saiyan.1704:

unbalanced matchmaking that’s often lopsided due to class stacking as matchmaking tries to double up classes vs a duo, etc. More importantly, the results is equivalent to the initial release of the Class Daily Achievements where matchmaking was unbalanced because players were using classes they don’t normally play just for the sake of completing dailies…

While I’ve seen more wild class matches, I don’t think it’s been too egregious.

Secondly, people will eventually either stop grinding against the wall with their bad builds or they’ll learn good builds. And again, you don’t even need good builds; I used B-C tier builds to get mine.

Saiyan.1704:

Sure certain players/teams would overcome this by passing the early divisions with their win streaks but a lot of SoloQ players are stuck playing with these baddies due to the Ascention achievments; of which, is basically a buffed up Class Daily system but never ends….

I am a solo queue player and I have had absolutely no trouble pushing into Emerald even though I was one of the bads who was playing alt classes.

Saiyan.1704:

Instead of pouting and QQing, I recommend changing these achievements completely by separating the multiclass requirements into a more in depth single class requirement. Instead of 7 wins for your main class, increase it to 15, 25, 30, etc etc.

Is that actually better? Why not just strip the specific class achievements entirely and instead add more wins to the win achievement, or why not add a 12th option for the meta so that players can either take the alt class achievements or the new suggested one?

Saiyan.1704:

I suspect that once people start reaching legendary on their main, they’ll switch to the other classes as it wouldn’t matter. This only worsen’s the matchmaking system…. because I know i’m going to do exactly that once I grind it out to Legendary.

IMO, the best strategy is to push your alt wins while you’re in Amber-Sapphire, before switching to your main to push Sapphire-Legendary. You’re facing weaker competition so you get more wins, making your achievement go faster, and your losses are countered by the low league no-pip-loss and no-tier-loss.

People with “lucky” accounts probably just play more.

Conncept.7638:

That’s what they said up until less than six months before they added ascended gear…

And they’ve held off on adding a new tier after ascended for the last what, 3 years?

At most, they’ve added ‘better’ stat spreads from HoT zones but even then there’s only something like one combination that’s actually really better (Viper’s>Sinister) and even that’s dependent on your class.

Mil.3562:

This game is for hardcore gamers only. To fully enjoy the game, you’ll need full ascended gears and legendaries. If you are prepared to grind for at least 5-8 hours every day and for one to two years , this game is for you.

But you don’t need to grind 5-8 hours every day for one to two years for Ascended gear. ._.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

We have to look at actual gameplay results and so far, I don’t see anyone doing that in this thread.

How do you define “actual gameplay results” though? PUGs accepting exotic-weaponed healers/tanks/condi DPS while only accepting asc-weaponed power DPS?

I’m not sure how this is even a problem?

So tanks, condi dps and healers don’t really need ascended weapons, while power does… Isn’t that good for tanks, healers and condi builds?

And upgrading the weapon level still does provide benefits. Everyone takes swings at the boss which are based on power damage.

And it’s not like ascended weapons are hard to come by.

Ayrilana.1396:

So if someone were to create fake patch notes that appeared credible and showed ascended crafting for jeweler. This caused everyone to buy up silver and gold ore and lasted until Anet came out and said the notes were fake. Whoever sold their ore during that time stands to make a profit. Again, this is just one example.

Manipulation isn’t simply only one person (or a group) trying to corner a market.

I’d honestly be surprised if many people didn’t already have a Silver nest egg.

That said, what’s considered market manipulation is really up to ANet. I doubt they’re going to say that pulling the supply of a commodity from a market, allowing the price to rise and then re-listing the items is manipulation; at least, an unfair one.

I managed to find my sunken anchor. The achievement is lying when it says “around the Shark’s Teeth Archipelago”; it can be anywhere in the water. I found mine just southeast of the Plaza of Lost Wisdom.

But snapcast is terrible. It always fires your abilities directly underneath your target. Problem is, lots of abilities have cast times and projectile travel speeds.

Necro marks won’t even land under a moving target.

Juba.8406:

Short answer : Play Warrior

bro if stances are good why wouldn’t i play a warrior

…errrr

but why?

Supreme.3164:

Right now I don’t even care about ele beating reapers…we just need a hardcounter for reapers like an unwinnable 1vs1…right now there is nothing

Thieves, especially Daredevils, already heavily counter Reapers.

It’s kinda hard to look at Necromancers fairly because so much of what they do is dependent on what the other guy does. If all their power comes from boon corrupt, then there’s a meta answer to that- stop running boons. If there aren’t viable low-boon builds (though there are, with thieves as they are), then they should add some.

Corrupt on auto is silly IMO though, should’ve just been strip rather than corrupt. Possibly with “if a boon is stripped, apply another stack of Poison”.

Rym.1469:

Nobody uses Spinal Shivers, OP, because Focus sucks in general.

Don’t people still use the auto-Shivers trait in Spite?

But yeah, Necromancers are so dependent on Warhorn it’s silly.

Wouldn’t Eles and Tempests still counter heavily projectile-dependent classes like Rangers and Dragonhunters?

Svanir runes!

:D

Huge.5891:

If people really feel it is “op” with a 9 sec CD, they should just increase the CD. Changing the whole sigil doesn’t make any sense. Especially on a patch that has already decreased survivability everywhere else. I have one 3 stack stab. This patch went from bunkers all day to 2 second fights.

Having sigils work off a CD that’s dissimilar to the weapon swap CD seems like it would just feel very bad.

MyPuppy.8970:

Why didn’t they just remove Diamond skin and leave eles with 2 gm traits? Oh, is a signet build even viable?

I played with one years ago and it felt somewhat subpar (S/D Set in Stone). At the moment I would not expect a Set in Stone build to work at all.

The signets actually seem decent. Earth is good for setup and bleeds are nice gravy, Fire is decent burning stacks, Air is a good stunbreak and Restoration is the traditional heal. They have reasonably low cooldowns. They just never really come together.

Maybe if Runes of Resistance had no, or a much shorter cooldown, a Signet Ele build would be viable.

Yashuoa.9527:

Also the following amulets would be welcome:

Amulet 1.
Power.
Healing power.
Precision.
and something else except vit or no 4th stat.

and

Amulet 2.
Condition dmg.
Healing power.
A 3rd stat that is no vit or precision.
A 4th that is no vit or precision (or just only 3 stats).

Why the vitality phobia?

I reckon maybe they should give them the Generosity treatment.

Crit one steals the boons
Hit one removes the boons.

Maybe the crit one could corrupt the boon instead.

Flumek.9043:

While I am very concerned that 1 cleanse / 1 sec is pretty tough, I know it can easily be tweaked to once every /2 or /3 sec, like most perme cleanse traits.

Frankly if this incarnation of Diamond Skin only cleansed every 2 seconds, it would be completely worthless. It’d take 10 seconds just to clear Sig of Spite.

The new Diamond Skin is far weaker than the current Diamond Skin, imo, just because Fear and Taunt will actually work above the threshold, and so will boon corrupts. Getting tagged by a power reaper’s fear, even for a second, can open that 75% window.

Good condi classes can do a lot to overload that threshold with more condis than it can clear, and hybrids can as they always have rely on their Power damage to break the threshold.

The only people that the new Diamond Skin is better against is people who have neither high condi variation or high power damage. Pure condi classes without condi variation have never done well, and that leaves condi-dipping bunkers behind- And if you’re playing a diamond skin bunker, it’s not really your job to bust bunkers anyway.

Onlysaneman.9612:

Toughness is passive defense, should we remove that from the game? Vitality is a passive defense, should we remove that?

Well, they are. They’re pruning the stronger combinations of these stats from PvP.

Tman.6349:

This brings up a VERY interesting idea suddenly. Since pets are considered ‘30% of Ranger’s output’, what if each family of pet received it’s stats based on a co-efficient of the Ranger’s current stats?

*granted this would have the opportunity to be broken as all hell, I still think it’s interesting

Personally I much prefer that they remain as they are. It offers more build options.

Frankly they should just buff the pets that aren’t cutting it, knock down the overpowered pets a bit (whether Bristleback and Smokescale are op is up for debate).

Stand The Wall.6987:

I think passives like that are there because of massive coordinated burst. A spectator that has no gw2 xp wont be able to follow along when everyone is getting downed 1 after 1.

Honestly how much experience do you need to understand it?

“Red team just turned all its attention to Steve and blew him up!”
v
“Red team just turned all its attention to Steve and he’s saved by his passive invuln autoproc!”

They’re both easy to read.

DoogySnowStalker.2069:

If anything, core pets should be brought up to par with HoT pets because that is what they are meant to originally supposed to do, give the Ranger an edge with their proffesion mechanic by maintaining a prescence in two places at once.

Yep. So many of the core pets just don’t do anything at all. The meta was basically “dogs and… uhhh?…”

Looking at you, drakes and moas. Learn to turn around when you breathe.

Doggie.3184:

Due to abusing healing minions; premades will completely dominate stronghold. ;[

I want to try a team which just uses Wall effects to prevent the minions from making progress rather than killing them. I reckon it’d be funny.

Ohoni.6057:

/sigh, again you completely misunderstand how “representation” works.

I stand by my assertion. Why, if your ideas are so great, does nobody appear to agree with you?

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, because the modern election systems are considered absolutely flawless. 8|

You’re right. We must go to a future space democracy and win the space election.

Ohoni.6057:

I listen

Hah! Good one.

Oh, there’s more!

Ohoni.6057:

, I just don’t agree,

Well, that’s your subjective opinion, and you’re entitled to it.

Ohoni.6057:

because you aren’t correct.

If all of this is subjective then I cannot be incorrect because there is no incorrect answer.

Ohoni.6057:

Definitely true. Of course, “number of people who agree with me in a thread on the game’s PvP forum” is in no way representative of “number of people who agree with me within the game’s population,”

No, it’s actually hyper-representative. People who care about the game come onto the forums and post about it. Isn’t it curious that nobody who cares about the game agrees with you? Hm. What a conundrum.

Ohoni.6057:

and I can’t think of any accurate way to measure the latter, so the point is moot.

I wish elections worked this way. I’d win so easy. “I don’t actually have any votes but I’m sure everyone agrees with me!”

Ohoni.6057:

But I do accept your surrender on the main points of my position.

I didn’t respond to the rest of your points because you are in la-la land. I would be wasting my time.

Granted, I’m wasting my time with any response, because you won’t listen regardless.

gricks.1897:

I think we said the same thing lol, I meant attain Saphire for season 1, attain saphire for season 2 etc. Then on the last season, attain Ruby.

Oh, I thought you meant them in that specific order. You need to get 10 rankups in total though, and Sapphire is only 2 rankups. I’m not sure how many seasons they’re running; this’d work if they were running 5 but I think they’re running 4, in which case you’ll need 2 sapphires and 2 rubies.

gricks.1897:

I thought all you need is Sapphire for three of the seasons, and then Ruby in the final due to the overlap of season achievements (wife and I are already half way through season 2 achievements).

No, the season achievements allow you to overflow your progress, for lack of a better term.

I’m in Diamond and Part II, but the extra progress I’ve made has been added to Part III.

Ohoni.6057:

We aim for the best balance we can achieve, it’s guaranteed to not work for everyone any more than the current system does, but we try to make it as good as possible in the opinions of as many players as possible, and that’s all anyone can hope for.

Then where are the people who agree with you?

Surely if the number of people who disagree with you is greater than the number of people who agree, then you must be wrong, right?

So where are the people who agree with you? There are plenty who disagree. So the only rational conclusion to draw is that you are wrong, right?

Ohoni.6057:

AKA “Life, the Universe, and Everything.”

So basically there’s no rational argument at all because everything is subjective. This rabbithole, and its consequences, are yours.

Obtena.7952:

Even though they were vague, there are only so many ways to reduce the survivability of SCRAPPER.

1. Nerf to Medic, Bulwark and Purge Gyro
2. Nerf to Adaptive Armor and Rapid Regeneration

While there are other traits that are defensive, they require more stringent conditions or active play, so I doubt Anet will reduce the effectiveness on those.

I’m going to reduce that list further; I would like to think they don’t nerf the traits because making a super tanky Scrapper with them does come at notably reduced offensive capability. I’m hoping the Gyros take the hit, if there is one. They are way to versatile and gain many positive benefits with tool, their basic function and even blowing them up.

Is scrapper to defensive? I guess that has more to do with what Anet wants the class concept to be as opposed to how it currently performs.

Gyros will not be changed. The only gyro that might be changed is Stealth Gyro which may have a cooldown increase.

Rocket Charge is, IMO, the big ticket skill on Hammer that increases their survivability significantly. I would not be surprised to see it nerfed.

Adaptive Armor is very highly budgeted and may see nerfs.
Rapid Regeneration may be nerfed or adjusted to put more emphasis on Healing Power.

I wonder how much this will actually do. Having a bunch more healing from dropping Nightfall and RS spinning in it certainly won’t hurt.

I think it could be esports and it could be fun to watch. Maybe the 5v5 Conquest format just doesn’t work for it. I am not certain why they settled on it.

I know there were 2v2 deathmatch tournaments they were pretty cool looking. It’s so much easier to pick out specific plays when the player numbers are lower.

Ohoni.6057:

Just to avoid misunderstanding, if I do not quote a portion, it is out of brevity, not lack of attention. Rest assured that I read it and that my comments are reflective of its entire contents.

Then why was your response addressing an entirely separate thing?

Ohoni.6057:

No, it’s a shared responsibility with the game’s developers, who both chose to make the shiny and lock it behind specific content. If someone places a mousetrap, and puts cheese on it, they can’t absolve themselves of any responsibility if a mouse’s neck gets broken in the process.

No, they can’t. In fact, that’s the exact intent of a mousetrap.

If your metaphor bears through, then the exact intent of The Ascension is to have players who wouldn’t otherwise touch sPvP enter the mode and try to grind their way to it. If that is the case, then petitioning ANet to change it because it’s ‘not fun’ would be about as effective as a mouse petitioning its ‘landlord’ to not place mousetraps.

If you think this is the case, you are acting irrationally. Your best course of action is to avoid the mousetrap.

Ohoni.6057:

Can I take your devolution into ad hominem attacks as a sign that you concede the primary topic of discussion already?

No, it’s a genuine thing. Adding low-skill players into the ladders provides better calibration to the MMR and helps to ensure that each division has an appropriate increase in difficulty.

The ad hominem attacks are just for fun.

Ohoni.6057:

I said asymmetrically balance the methods as in, “if you want Skin A, then you can pursue it via paths X, Y, or Z, whichever you enjoy, and some will take slightly more work than others, but they’ll all get you there eventually.”

This bares no relation to having “Skins A, B, and C, which can ONLY be earned via paths X, Y, and Z respectively, and no path could ever lead to the other two rewards.” This is impossible to balance because it’s entirely subjective. If you like skin B then you MUST do path Y, whether you enjoy it or not, which results in a guaranteed negative experience for that player (either he pursues path Y, which is negative, or he fails to achieve skin B, which is negative, there is no path to a positive outcome).

Define positive outcome.

Ohoni.6057:

No, that’s called a strawman argument and I will not entertain it. Do better, get good.

Taking your logic to its extremes is not a strawman. It is intellectual rigor.

Why should I not be rewarded for cybering in Salma District if “fun should be rewarded”?

Ohoni.6057:

If it is not worth me caring about then it is not worth you caring about.

You seem to be imposing your value system on mine.

Ohoni.6057:

If I’m not allowed to be bothered by not having it then you are not allowed to be bothers by them giving it to me.

You’re allowed to be bothered by whatever you like. That doesn’t mean your arguments have merit.

Ohoni.6057:

Can we both agree that whether it has mechanical value or not it DOES have a subjective value to players who want it, and can therefore be discussed as to whether the methods of obtaining it are reasonable for those players?

No, we can’t. Mechanical value is an important component of MMO rewards- unless you’ve missed Ascended gear and materials being the bedrock of the modern GW2 economy (psst, it ain’t for the skins). I cannot accept the irrelevance of mechanical value as it is the closest thing to an objective value that the game has.

I’d go on about the economic effects of Vial of Salt, but I know that economies make you feel uncomfortable, so I’ll leave it be unless you insist.

Ohoni.6057:

Sorry if I was unclear, I meant that as a maximum, “within” 2-3 times as long, no more. If it is even, that may be appropriate too, depends on the content. I just mean that it should not be a preposterously larger amount of time.

But what is preposterous is subjective. You may believe an item tuned for 1:1 progress may be correct, but I may believe that is preposterous, and you may believe that the 1:3 value that I would suggest would be preposterous.

Unless this only works downwards, in which case, hooray race to the bottom.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t want to boost WvW participation. I don’t think ANet should either. I think that all anyone should want is that anyone who wants to WvW should be able to do so without feeling that they are missing out on rewards they could be earning elsewhere. Any players that love WvW and want nothing more than WvWing should be able to do so. Any players who do not enjoy WvW should have absolutely no reason to be there.

Sure, that’d be great, but again; pixie dreams and sunshine.

But as a player who enjoys sPvP, PvE, WvW and cybering in Salma District equally, why would I ever go to WvW without WvW exclusive rewards when two of them provide better rewards on a monetary level in a game with such an important economy?

Ohoni.6057:

You missed the point. There is a PvP track to earning the Ascension. There is no PvE track to earning it. There is a PvE track to earning the Nevermore staff. There is no PvP track to earning it. The Ascension wings is NOT the Nevermore staff. A player might want the Nevermore staff and be not even a bit happier if you handed him the Ascension wings for free, or vice versa.

Yes, I am aware. I am not sure if I have covered this or not, but I am not a proponent of giving people things they want for no reason.

Ohoni.6057:

You cannot say “you get X, I get Y, I have determined that these two things are of equivalent value, so you should be happy with what you get.” It’s all subjective, people want what they want, and don’t want what they don’t want, and nobody else is capable of judging what they should be satisfied with.

You’re in wishy-washy subjective land where the points are made up and don’t matter.

Ohoni.6057:

Obviously the only current method of earning the Ascension is via PvP, but there’s no reason for that to be the case other than that ANet decided it should be so. They could as easily change their course on it, and allow you to ALSO earn the components by completing collections in the open world, like the legendary weapons, while also allowing you to earn Legendary weapons via PvP.

I’ve detailed reasons for it. Unique rewards allow players who enjoy multiple avenues of play a reason to invest in one they might not otherwise play because of income generation. Rewards aimed at one demographic boost or renew participation in their field (I can detail why this is good a bit more, if you’d like). PvP exclusive rewards that PvEers might want help to variate MMR. It provides stabilizing or modifying elements for the economy while providing control for the impact (or even increasing it) by limiting the target.

Address these, please.

Wing.5487:

but the minnion necro is allready op and can easily fight 1v2+

hahahaha, i wish, i get slagged as soon as my minions get aoed down

go back to hotjoin

Ohoni.6057:

Nope. You aren’t answering the question, you’re answering your own.

I did not dispute the value in long term goals. Long term goals are good. The question was "What is the benefit to having long term goals that are exclusive to a specific activity? "

You’re right, I apologize. It is very insulting to ensure that we are on the same page, and it is very insulting to answer your question fully. I will endeavor to ensure that all future responses will be kitten and inadequate so that you may quickly and easily misinterpret them to try to make your case.

Ohoni.6057:

I also addressed this point, There certainly is value in getting players to TRY things outside their comfort zone, but nobody with a rational mind could characterise the Path to Ascension achievement chain as “trying” PvP. It is at minimum 180 rounds, realistically 2-3 times that, that is not, in any rational sense, “trying” PvP, that is full on dedication to the game mode.

Speaking of misinterpretation, that’s just a bang up job of completely cutting out the second section of that paragraph! Pat yourself on the back, you’ve done great.

If you’d read the rest of the paragraph you’d read that I meant variation within that game mode.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, dedication to the game as a whole? A good thing. Trying new things? A good thing. Combine the two and it becomes awful for anyone who tries and does not enjoy that new things, there is absolutely ZERO positive value to that outcome.

Your decision to plough through PvP because you want a shiny even though you hate the game mode is nobody’s fault but your own.

Also you’re quite wrong on the “no positive value”, you’re probably easy to beat so anyone who plays against you and has the same mindset as you probably appreciates the feed.

Ohoni.6057:

It may be impossible to perfectly balance all three modes

Glad you agree.

Ohoni.6057:

, but “reasonably” balancing them is not that difficult to do. So long as you can gain meaningful progress in the mode you most enjoy, you can play that mode without feeling that you’re too far behind the curve.

http://us.ncsoft.com/en/careers/

If you think balancing a very large game’s economy and rewards system is “not that difficult to do” then you’ve got a promising career ahead of you. Hell, I’d launch a startup and hire you. Half the MMO is the rewards schema.

Ohoni.6057:

Ideally they would balance them asymmetrically

Oh you mean that thing they’re doing? Where this asymmetry exists? In skins? The items provide no numerical or mechanical benefit, only an arbitrary aesthetic one?

Ohoni.6057:

with one mode being the easiest way of achieving some things, but the hardest to acquire others, but so long as there is nothing that you can’t earn in your preferred mode, and there’s nothing that is way too unbalanced, 2-3 times as much time and effort involved, then it’s not so bad.

My preferred mode is cybering in Salma District.

Gimme my legendaries

Ohoni.6057:

Making your preferred rewards impossible to earn through your preferred activities is the worst possible solution to that potential imbalance.

The Ascension has no monetary value and it has no mechanical value that is not attainable in any other way.

Next.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t dispute that PvP and WvW could perhaps need some better reward elements, but these should not be exclusive reward elements, they should just be the same things you can earn through PvE, taking about as long and as much effort to earn.

I thought you just said that these rewards should take 2-3 times as long to earn. Contradicting yourself so soon is not exactly a master stroke.

Ohoni.6057:

If someone wants to be able to WvW all day, they should be able to WvW all day, and still meaningfully progress towards whatever their goal may be.

Yes, that would be lovely, but wishes and fairy dreams are really not hard to come by.

If you want to boost WvW participation overnight, start a new WvW season and bring back the heroes/mistbound weapons without EotM progression.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s a bad goal then. They should never be targeting middling players to play more of the mode. Middling players have figured out what makes them happy, and it’s not playing more of that mode.

I’ve already explained the logical loop that tells you why they move the way they do.

Ohoni.6057:

Respect their choice, allow them to play as much or as little as they like, that is the RIGHT amount, because it’s the amount that makes them happy. Any different amount is the WRONG amount, and should not be encouraged.

Okay, I want to play no PvP. I want to spend all my time cybering in Salma District. Zero PvP and a thousand cyber hours is the correct amount.

Legendary please

Ohoni.6057:

And that’s nonsense. This is a game. If you’re comparing a game to a minimum wage job in what you believe is a positive manner then you’ve clearly made a wrong turn somewhere.

I’m not making a comparison. I’m poking kitten in your logic.

You were speaking of wrong turns?… It seems like you’ve completely misread what I’ve said.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, and my position extends to cover ALL of those things.

That doesn’t mean it isn’t a flawed position. That just means you want to implement a flawed system across the breadth of the game.

Ohoni.6057:

A simple example I’ve used in the past is that PvPers often object to needing world completion to craft a Legendary. Well fair enough on that, so what if there was an alternate PvP-only track to earning them?

There is. For the legendary we’re talking about. The Ascension. Y’know, that PvP reward. It has a set of PvP achievements which you have to complete, two of the MF components require league tickets, there’s a reward track with a component you need in it, you can get Mystic Clovers from reward tracks…

I swear, it’s like explaining it to someone who’s from the moon. If you just make that little link you’ll figure it out.

Ohoni.6057:

It could be something along the lines of requiring you to complete each dungeon track at least once

Yeah this step actually is in the reward tracks. You need tokens from dungeons for the Gifts and you can get those tokens through the tracks.

Ohoni.6057:

and completing X amount of matches on each of the available PvP maps, or other similar objectives, something that would add up to at least as much time and effort as getting World Completion, likely a bit more since it would involve less variety of activities, but at the end of the process you’d have a Gift of Exploration and could make a Legendary with it without having to do a single heart quest.

Again, moon man, they did this for the Ascension. For reasons. I’ve already explained one of them to you.

Ohoni.6057:

You should have long term goals, but you should not have to pursue content that you do not enjoy for long periods of time, you should be spending that time in the parts of the game that you do enjoy.

You don’t have to spend time in content you don’t enjoy. Nobody’s holding a gun to your head. Go do something else in the game. Go do what you enjoy.

Ohoni.6057:

You’re thinking of what is known as a “job.” We’re talking about games here. If a game is thought of as a job, then you have failed at game design.

If we’re gonna follow the “fun should be rewarded” train of thought then Salma District legendary please.

Preferably Kraitkin. For reasons.

Ohoni.6057:

Well what’s the benefit? Honestly. Nobody’s been able to explain that one.

What is the benefit to having long term goals that are exclusive to a specific activity?

Sure, here’s your essay. The benefit of long term goals, particularly in an MMO, is to provide a feeling of steady advancement.

This is for a few main reasons. The biggest is that RPGs rely on a cycle of explore/collect/improve/overcome to provide their enjoyment. A long term goal like a legendary fits naturally into this cycle.

Another is that MMOs tend not to be exclusively games, but also hobbies. The most direct comparison I can draw is to Warhammer; you may not necessarily have fun putting together and painting your little models, but it’s an enjoyable pastime and you have a sense of accomplishment once you have completed your little army.

They are also good at asking players to step outside the immediate box of what they’re doing and try something else. This isn’t to say that people who play PvE will go and try sPvP, but there are several parts of the new Precursor chains that do this. For a PvE precursor, you need to go into fractals, you need to do open-world content both in the new and old world, and you need to go into dungeons to finish your gift. For the PvP legendary, you need to do the League Professional achievements- and partly because of how leagues work, you may be inclined to try out Stronghold rather than Conquest.

Why is having them specific to an activity useful?

In GW2’s case in particular, the game has three primary avenues that it’s cut out for itself; PvE (with the subcategory of raids), WvW and sPvP. Players tend to sort themselves into these categories, and while there is overflow, they tend to pick one of them and stick to it. To have all three of these items provide the same rewards has problems.

For one, if all modes of play provide the same rewards, there is inevitably going to be one mode which oustrips the other two. This has been a big part of why they have worked so hard to add reward tracks and revamp PvP’s reward system; PvE always outshone PvP for how much gold you would intake. For someone who finds PvP and PvE equally fun, the only rational choice is to pick PvE- you actually make a bit of money there. By providing unique rewards to a mode of play, they have an ‘out’ from this logic train; yes you may make less money from PvP but you get X unique reward.

You can see this problem in action in WvW; there is no reason to do it because the ‘best reward’ you can currently get from it is a set of exotic skins which you get from Badges of Honor which you get from Achievement Chests which after even a modest play time you can get enough to get the two unique cosmetic sets.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s not “to get people to try something new,” because it’s a long term goal. Long term means “well after someone has tried something and determined whether they enjoy it.” Rewards to “get people to try it” should be earned relatively quickly, so that you try it, decide whether you enjoy it or not, get the reward either way, and if you had fun, continue playing, and if you didn’t, move on happy.

No, it is not to provide an incentive for people to join the game mode. If it targets any group of people, it is targeting middling players to try to get them to become long-term players- or at least, long enough to get the long-term goal completed before they return to middling.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s not to “reward dedication,” because you don’t need exclusivity for that. Long term goals can be a good thing, but they should be about doing the things you enjoy for long periods of time, nobody’s life is improved by you doing something you hate for long periods of time, NOBODY’S. So yeah, have long term goals, but be flexible in how you can earn them, so that you can have a reasonable spread of activities you can do to earn them, and be more likely to find one that falls within the area of things you enjoy doing.

Firstly, that’s nonsense. Doing something you hate for long periods of time is called an entry level job, and entry level jobs are incredibly rewarding in the long term.

Secondarily, you are ignoring the plurality of long term goals. There are long term goals for people who enjoy every aspect of the game (except WvW, as I’ve said above). There’s a fractal legendary backpiece. There is legendary armor in raids. There are legendary weapons which take you through general PvE content. There are long term goals and long term rewards. If you enjoy doing any of those types of content, then you do in fact have long term goals available already; PvE is really overflowing with the things.

Ohoni.6057:

Games are meant to be fun. Fun should be rewarded. Fun is subjective. Therefore, rewards should embrace multiple subjective positions, rather than being locked into a single element of the game that does not appeal to everyone.

“Fun should be rewarded” is not correct. Mastery, commitment and most importantly success should be rewarded.

Oh, also you didn’t answer the question.

Ohoni.6057:

Well, no exclusive ones, obviously, but there should probably be rewards that they CAN earn through PvP, if that’s how you want to spend your time, you should just be able to earn them elsewhere if you don’t enjoy PvP.

Why?

And the answer isn’t “because I want it” or “because people will quit if they can’t get it”.

Ohoni.6057:

Oh noes, a PVP reward item requires….PVP, blasphemy!

Yes, that would be the problem. The solution would be for it to not be a PvP reward item.

I agree. PvP should give no rewards at all.

Good talk.

Darknicrofia.2604:

Huh, all the girls’ 21st birthdays I’ve been to never spewed any transmutation charges at me

All it had was a bunch of jello shots, Taylor Swift music and a lot of wooing

Yeah your 21sts are all wrong. You need to cut the music and the wooing and replace them with more jello shots.

Ohoni.6057:

The only reason to PvP is to get the Ascension wings. Anything that does not progress the relevant achievements is a waste of time that could be spent actually playing the core game outside the Mists.

You know you can play it for fun, right?
Or other rewards? The Ranked reward track spews Transmutation charges at you like a girl on her 21st birthday.

Coulter.2315:

Actually no, if a murderer wanted freedom but didn’t have it that is no problem, if a lazy person (who may or may not be called Ohoni) wanted a reward but didn’t get it that is also no problem. They can be bothered all they like, doesn’t make it a problem.

Oh no, I vehemently disagree with you. It’s definitely a problem that he can’t crybully the devs into destroying any kind of incentive structure or long-term goal the game has. :^)

Keep in the stacking burns and poisons. Otherwise sounds cool

Zaxares.5419:

What’s more, because you can still gain progress towards the achievement even though you end up on a losing streak (because then you drop down a tier and gain credit again when you manage to get back on a winning streak) there’s less frustration and anger at “bad matchmaking” since attaining higher divisions simply becomes a symbol of status rather than a goal that must be achieved for the Legendary.

If what you propose were to work the same way as current tier rewards in ruby+, this is not how it would work.

BellatorDeus.2310:

This seems odd since the game was apparently designed mainly around pve.

This is incorrect; balance has always been primarily focused around spvp.