Would you mind explaining how you calculated these? It looks as if you added up the damage of each skill and say that’s the DPS.
[Damage] * [Damage Modifer] / Casttime * [Skill % Uptime] = DPS
Skill % Uptime is [Castime]/[Castime+Cooldown]
This is the most accurate way of calculating the DPS of a certain skill over a long period of time.
[Damage] * [Damage Modifer] / Casttime = How much DPS a skill does
[Castime]/[Castime+Cooldown] = What % of the fight your apply that DPS
258% critdmg – gg.
It’s actually only 108% crit damage, but since crits original give you 150% damage, the damage modifier comes out to 2.58 or 258%.
I know it will be a dps loss, but can you see how effective a full trinket set of the ascended celestial gear is?
I’m guessing between 5000-6000, i actually broke my spreadsheet so… :<
Honestly, the amount of defense your gonna get from that, isn’t going to save you often enough to make the loss in DPS worth it.
Numbers for rampagers and rabid are in.
Just over 5000 DPS, even with a condition build that applies full up-time on burning poison and bleed, it just cant recover from how much more powerful crit-damage is.
Finished my first round of numbers with the grenade engi using berzerkers gear, I’m going to throw together the numbers for rampagers and rabid soon.
As you can see the grenade engineer does plenty of DPS on it’s own, while covering all 3 condition damage bases and giving regeneration to our party.
For the purpose of enduring Damage, I assumed that because your at range, you prob, don’t have to dodge roll as often, so I cut the number of dodges in half and gave half up-time on it.
Other vulnerability builds I’ve tried don’t get anywhere near 6000 dps, and usually have much more unreliable vulnerability up-time. This does not bode well for necros :<
Dont go full BM your personal DPS sucks.
10/25/5/0/30
You hit like a truck with berzerker’s gear, and your pet hits like a truck. This is prob the best dungeon build for hunters out there cause you do so much dps and provide a lot of support with spring
builds like the one achen suggested are the reason rangers have a bad reputation for bad damage
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Just kidding, had a cell in the wrong place, you forums are so helpful
and FYI swoop does add dps at point blank range.
(edited by Scootabuser.4915)
public service announcement
More than a backstab Thief.
… Not ready for esports … :-/
I like how you interjected into our PvE discussion to post your kittenty WvW Thief Solo video with overused music.
The +dmg boons really only highlights how the engineer is getting screwed over. With 2 boons or less, the Ranger beats out the Elementalist. With 3 boons or more, the Elementalist wins.
However, if you look at how many boons the Elementalist can keep 100% up-time on (6), then it becomes a comparison of +5% to +12% which is ridiculous as it is more than twice and done by simpling button mashing attunements (might, swiftness, regen, protection, and fury) and attacking (vigor).
The dodge roll comparison is good. Nice find.
But why, Durz. Why should we only get +30 toughness from a signet when everyone else is getting 3 times that much or more? The pet is a part of us. Why not just the same toughness for both of us?
This post is littered with so many false statements and lies I don’t even know where to begin.
hornet’s sting is never only for the sake of dps.
It’s for the combo finisher.
1.2~k health or fire armor, both are pretty worthwhile most of the time.Raw numbers mean little in PvP.
In terms of those… warriors probably still take the cake threw greatsword, even the frenzy nerfed version. Its pretty easy to get to 15+ stacks of might on a warrior greatsword setup, from there the deeps just roll out.The thing is, its everything else that needs to be taken into account, like how consistent the dmg is, what type and how bursty.
Consistent dmg is notably worse than spike.
Backstab thieves aren’t known for their 20s parses, but their 2-3 second jokingly easy to land KOs.
I’m surprised you didn’t notice that this was about PvE. Well I edited the first sentence of the post, this is indeed applicable only to PvE.
….Hunter class?
Like i said, prone to errors >.>
Back again, finished my preliminary crafting with the hunter class in PvE. Again, if you havn’t noticed, this is NOT a PvP build, this is NOT a pvp post. This has NOTHING to do with PvP. At all. PvE.
I tested quite a few builds, 30/30/10/0/0, including 20 in nature, 30 in beastmaster ect… This one has not only the most damage, but the highest pet survivability. I also tested a bunch of different traits like Companion’s might to see if they came out ahead, the traits i have listed are the best. Hornet/Monarch is a total loss in dps and shouldn’t be used. Serpents Strike can be used as a high dps dodge, so i included that instead of a normal 1 dodge per 10 second baseline I use (this also helps keep steady focus up). Hunters call is a loss in DPS, it is however ranged so, it can be used on approach of a mob. Note that frost spirit is either glitched or they accidentally added the tooltip about the cooldown, because there is NO internal cooldown, i was able to string together 4-5 procs in under 4 seconds. If your wondering why the cast times are lower then normal, it’s because thats how i chose to calculate quickness in, as a “cast reduction modifier”
Things I included:
Quickness
Self Generated Fury
Rampage as One
Bleeds from pet
Average might on pet
Things I didn’t include:
Opening Strike
Furious Grip
Exact pet damage (I don’t know how exactly the game calculates pet damage, but it’s not the normal way it does with players, for the “damage” i had to create and average from the pet attacking a heavy golem with the correct build, the calculations match the in game damage, i just hate to not be mathematically accurate T.T)
Maul’s crit damage glitch (if it hasn’t been fixed yet)
3.5% bonus damage to all party members
Party buffs
SO
Topping off at almost 8000 dps (more then a backstab thief) and 5000 (a little less then an axe/mace or greatsword warrior) when your pet is down, the hunter’s PvE DPS is still in a perfectly acceptable place.
Class Analysis
Pros:
Higher DPS
Some Defensive Support (Healing spring is SO GEWD)
Some Offensive Support (Frost Spirit)
Utilities for Large Pulls and Heavy Condition Bosses (muddy ground, signet of renewal)
Cons:
Above average DPS depends on pet survival (a fair trade off)
Low personal survivability (S/W is not the easiest to pull off, even for a berzerker build, you lose damage when you dodge, and taking 5 points out of any trait line to put into endurance regain in wilderness survival, is going to drop your DPS significantly, if you do however, I would take it out of marksmenship, just because if your having trouble surviving, your prob dodging alot, and your prob not getting the bonus damage anyways.)
All and all I think people underestimate the hunter, it doesn’t have good <5sec burst, but it has a great 20 second burst, and it’s average DPS is quite good when built correctly. I feel a lot of people are going to complain about the build not having enough “survivability” but, what I wouldn’t give to have healing spring and an 8 second dodge on my 30/30/10 thief <3 I think this build is very much possible
disclaimer: i’ve been known to make some pretty giant mistakes on my preliminary calcs so, i’ll be double and triple checking and updating as needed.
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Not a single kitten was given about OP that day.
The match is won by
The team with less Warriors
Where are you Mesmers
:<
…you might as well look like a kitten…
No seriously why are warriors so bad at gap closing xD
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:
P/P has a serious, rather overt, problem. That problem is Vital Shot. Vital Shot was very clearly designed to shoot significantly faster than it actually does, meaning that it is much weaker than it should be.
This creates a DPS vaccuum that forces you into an excessive reliance on Unload dumping in an only moderately successful attempt to stave off the loss of DPS from Vital Shot. This also has the side-effect of more or less zeroing out any tactical usability of the set as attempting to maintain even mediocre DPS keeps you in a state of perpetual Initiative starvation.
I seriously can’t believe it hasn’t been fixed yet and that there isn’t more uproar about it.
What tactical usability? HS, BP and BS?
None of those graduate P/P past Duck status.
What are you gonna do with your range hit, shoot of Vital shots in Black Powder like a thief training dummy but without the initiative pool? No to expensive.
Use the inkling HS? Not enough damage, even with a faster RoF.
Man P/P’s set in general is just lacking and VS firing even a half second faster ain’t solving that.I made it a few words in then gave up.
Yes, fixing Vital Shot will make a pretty dramatic difference, even if the set is still hardly perfect.
You know, P/P doesn’t reach as high of DPS as melee, but thats to be expect, 3200 DPS, but we have nothing to compare that too. What if most other ranged weapons did 2000 DPS? P/P would be one of the best weapon sets. And if thats true, and P/P is the highest ranged damage set for a class, why would AN fix vital shot?
Because that isn’t the case. I can promise you Rifle Warriors do substantially more DPS at longer range while having vastly better survivability.
O RLY
Looks like the game rounds stun duration up
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:
P/P has a serious, rather overt, problem. That problem is Vital Shot. Vital Shot was very clearly designed to shoot significantly faster than it actually does, meaning that it is much weaker than it should be.
This creates a DPS vaccuum that forces you into an excessive reliance on Unload dumping in an only moderately successful attempt to stave off the loss of DPS from Vital Shot. This also has the side-effect of more or less zeroing out any tactical usability of the set as attempting to maintain even mediocre DPS keeps you in a state of perpetual Initiative starvation.
I seriously can’t believe it hasn’t been fixed yet and that there isn’t more uproar about it.
What tactical usability? HS, BP and BS?
None of those graduate P/P past Duck status.
What are you gonna do with your range hit, shoot of Vital shots in Black Powder like a thief training dummy but without the initiative pool? No to expensive.
Use the inkling HS? Not enough damage, even with a faster RoF.
Man P/P’s set in general is just lacking and VS firing even a half second faster ain’t solving that.I made it a few words in then gave up.
Yes, fixing Vital Shot will make a pretty dramatic difference, even if the set is still hardly perfect.
You know, P/P doesn’t reach as high of DPS as melee, but thats to be expect, 3200 DPS, but we have nothing to compare that too. What if most other ranged weapons did 2000 DPS? P/P would be one of the best weapon sets. And if thats true, and P/P is the highest ranged damage set for a class, why would AN fix vital shot?
Thank you^^
I know in theory this build does more dmg then p/p but what about enemies like the boss in cliffside or ascalon? Do you even kill them melee without 15 in acrobatic…. I´m not sure how you can stay alive at 60+ without increased endurance reg
Support Guardian, Using your dodges well, using the evade from pistolwhip, using p/p or shortbow.
To be fair I’ve never played a warrior, I tried 30/30/0/0/10 and 10/30/0/0/30, and the former came out just a bit higher.
Lemme know if I’m missing anything.
This is what I and many thieves use in high level fractals and organized groups.
Thrill of the Crime. 30 Points in Deadly Arts is Worthless. Feline Grace/Power of Inertia.
MATH BELOW
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Most full DPS builds hit at around 5000-6000 DPS.
Where are you getting these numbers? I’ve done some calculations and seen some others but those seem high. I haven’t found a system that seems accurate for calculating DPS but I would like to.
Blood~
The fun thing about these spreadsheets is it takes no time at all to change stuff, everything is connected so if I change the crit chance, everything from the damage modifier to the amount of initiative opportunist gives you, changes.
Let’s change gear for a second so instead of trying to count how many Unloads can you do, by sacrificing a lot of DPS for Init gain, and focus on calculating how much damage is done per Init spent.
Basically, how much Damage does 5 Inits worth?
That’s how the 2 spreadsheets work. They use initiative regain as the “cooldown.”
If you want I can email them to you.
Not theorycrafting, 100% empirical experience.
25/30/0/0/15 “Lazy” Dual Pistols Damage Build:
http://en.gw2codex.com/build/24932-dual-pistols-maximum-damage-lazy-build
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=APgEhXKWO9Q10/30/0/30/0 “Dodge&Swap” Might Stacking Max Ini Regen Build
http://en.gw2codex.com/build/24793-thief-dual-pistol-might-stacking-build
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77j8psP8LBY&feature=youtu.be
I wish that, something in the acrobatics tree or something could be buffed so that the dodge and swap build did more damage then the 30/30 build, cause it’s just so much more fun to play
And here is the 10/30/0/30/0 Build with the new numbers, still proving initiative regain to be inferior.
Ok so a few things. I Changed where I calculated haste, instead of adding it as a damage modifier, I used it to modify the ability cast times using an average.
Also I cleaned up the SUP and updated the build with the correct food buffs.
A note on a 25/30/0/0/15 Build: This build is going to be much easier to run, keeping your initiative above 6 will be a lot more forgiving for new players, and you only lose some DPS from 50 power/Mug.
I made a massive mistake in my calculations
I forgot that while determining the SUP for thieves, you don’t factor in cast time since their cooldown is based on initiative regain, something that doesn’t stop while your casting.
Will have the new numbers soon. WHY DOES THIS ALWAYS HAPPEN TO MEEE
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uh… after a few more runs with P/P I had the feeling that this weaponset is not that awesome, but that’s just sad.
One question, how many stacks of vulnerability can you maintain on a boss?@SpaceCowboy: Since the autohit on Warrior-Rifle is almost as bad as Thief-Pistole, I dont think Warrior can deal good rangeDPS, too. But a comparison to other classes would be interesting.
And thank you for credits, now I feel really bad about me not looking at that sheet a while ago.
For the vulnerability I’ve only taken it on 1 run. It was easy to keep the vuln at 20+ but hard to stagger your Body Shots so you don’t waste initiative by going over.
I need to do some math for the grenade engineer to see just how good that build actually is.
Great video, entertaining and informative!
You keep mentioning how pathetic the DPS is for a range weapon set. What professions do range damage better? Warrior Rifle? Engineer Pistol or Grenader?
Engineer grenader is good but only because of the vulnerability build it can run.
From what I’ve figured out so far, ranged DPS is about 30-40% less then melee DPS for each class. So you really do get a massive bonus for being in melee. Don’t play a “ranged” build. Play a build with a melee weapon and a ranged weapon and pick which one you think is better for the bosses.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/82145-theoryloo-pistolpistol-thieves/
video got died heres a new link to it
INIT is key for dps imho, here is my p/p build which i love to use,
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckMMMM9MMGmvMMGmvMax0x0MVsqMsb8kiH7khf7kir70z7070z7kGL70V7ofD70m8ofY (copy & paste)
you can switch bloodlust for sigil of preception. I also switch out Hide in Shadows fir Withdraw from time to time.
The entire point of the video was to prove that Ini is NOT the key, and is in fact WORSE.
Critical Haste will make you waste your init faster while Combo Critical Chance will make you deal more damage with it, do I really need to prove that?
Yes, because I only added the damage modifier from critical haste to the auto attack.
Critical Haste doesn’t make you waste your init faster. You just get more auto attacks, you init regain stays the same.
Edited cause that was unnecessarily hostile. Bassman if you wanna add me in game i can go over how I calculate DPS.
(edited by Scootabuser.4915)
A corpse to be danced on.
your video has a major flaw, Sundering Strikes and Critical Haste sucks, the correct build is 25/30/0/0/15, take Combo Critical Chance and Thrill of The Crime
also 65% crit chance is too low, get sigil of perception and sqash soup to get to 80%
that actually makes a difference
Prove that mathematically, because I proved that the opposite was true while doing my math.
This is why, AN never gives us exact dates.
You guys overestimate how much DPS you need for vulnerability to be worth it.
Most full DPS builds hit at around 5000-6000 DPS.
The Vulnerability Builds Hit for 2500
So you have a ~3000 DPS difference to make up for.
So, between the 4 of your other group members you only need 12,000 DPS.As I said, you still need at least 3 party members to go full dps and nothing else for it to have a value (and why go P/P when you can go P/D and be more versatile). And that 2500 is assuming you got everything ticking perfectly and we all know that’s not how it goes, there is a lot of other stuff that don’t show up when testing numbers that affect it.
So basically it isn’t THAT high (and that high isn’t even so high, specially considering other professions Vuln builds) and with how short the Vulns stick to the target and taking into account that most teams won’t be always achieving 100% dps as they need to do other stuff to save their lives, Body Shot is far from the way to go.
Pistol is broken, I love the aesthetics behind of dual pistols, and the first 10 minutes with them you think they’re fun, but soon you realize how badly designed is that set right now in terms of versatility and competitiveness.
Paragraph 1: More people need to start doing full DPS builds and taking support and control places that don’t DESTROY your DPS.
Paragraph 2: The DPS body shot does is actually a lot easier to accomplish then other builds, you just stay above 6 initiative and use headshot when you can. Theoretical DPS is always going to be lower then applied DPS, you just gotta determine for yourself if your skilled enough to pull it off.
paragraph 3: Agree
You guys overestimate how much DPS you need for vulnerability to be worth it.
Most full DPS builds hit at around 5000-6000 DPS.
The Vulnerability Builds Hit for 2500
So you have a ~3000 DPS difference to make up for.
So, between the 4 of your other group members you only need 12,000 DPS.
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Nice breakdown. Looks like body shot is next on the chopping block.
…lol.
Vuln stacking is always overlooked and underappreciated. I may have missed it, but did you do a dps check on the vuln stacking build? Im sure people seeing this who might be interested in how much dps they can expect to bring, maintaining their stacks.
it was low, like 2500, but most vuln builds have low personal dps
Daze Knock-Back Knock Down
Invulnerability
Stun Stun Stun Stun Stun
The damage from P/P is not from Unload alone. You have to couple it with condition damage also — atleast 25pts in DA. I used to run with 25/30/0/0/15, P/P and D/D build.
Then you should also know that +10% also applies to your daggers. P/P + 10% dmg is still inferior to D/D + 10% dmg.
That’s not really a good comparison since P/P used for the first half of the target’s HP and D/D for the last half. Unload + condition damage will do the job very well in bringing the HP down to 50%, then switch to D/D where Heartseeker shines.
You should not narrow your views into one weapon set, rather expand it that having both P/P and D/D allows us to play as if we have a D/P or P/D weapons sets also.
I carry all weapons 24/7 (3 pistols, diff sigils) switch out weapons according to the situation presented. P/D is the one i never use because i am not condition specced. I use the 25/30/0/15/0 build, since it is versatile enough to accommodate pretty much every weapon combo. I flip my traits +10% pistol dmg, dual skill crit + dmg, spam some unload when such a situation present itself, decent, not impressive.
Of all the weapon sets i use, P/P is the least used. I’d say those, who specced P/P or any weapon set only, are the narrow-minded ones. And i am not bashing P/P itself, but comparing it to other sets, it is subpar.
That’s the problem. P/P is not suppose to be compared to other weapon set because each set has different purpose. Using P/P on a target with <50% health is not as effective as using D/D, and using D/D on a target with >50% health is not as effective as using P/P.
What the actual kitten just happened here.
Your not seriously trying to say that P/P does more damage then D/D when the mob is above 50% health?
Your not implying that any D/D Thief EVER uses heartseeker?
I hope your trolling cause there is no facepalm big enough…
No, In fact AN specifically said during launch that the only reason they were supporting forums was to give unsavory people a place to whine and keep them out of the game.
I know it may SEEM that your doing a lot of damage because it’s what you want to believe, it’s your build you want it to be good.
But look at the numbers… D/D gets a 7k CnD and a 15k Backstab every 4 seconds, along with an auto chain that hits like a truck. P/P gets a 9k unload that takes 2.7 seconds to channel and can be used once every 3.51 seconds.
You are not doing good damage with P/P compared to D/D.
Also, body shot does more DPS then unload if the other 3 members of your party are doing more then 3000 dps.
Full exotic gear, 71% crit chance (I don’t count Keen Observer cause it’s trash)
trust me, if your running S/D use 30/30/10/0/0 and take your support utilities with full berzerker gear
S/P actually, but D/D is only like 7000 now anyways
D/D is 30/30/10/0/0 you get infused shadow for the CONSTANT cloak and daggers
S/P is 30/30/0/0/10 so you can get the 5% back damage
you could easily go 25/30/0/15/0 with s/p though, that’s usually what i reccomend for newer players
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Does a “real” DPS build have both 30 DA and 30 CS? If so, I am not even remotely interested in it. I like helping my team in other ways. If I wanted to be a DPS jockey, I’d take my Warrior instead.
100% of your team support is from your utility and weapon skills, all of which can be used on a dps build.
It’s your personal survivability that’s tied to the traits.
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Your build is getting 2903 DPS with the auto attack chain. Compare this to the DPS auto attack chain of a real DPS buidl (6866) and you get roughly 42% of the damage.
So your right, your only losing 68% of your DPS.
And to my knowledge there is nothing that S/D can do that will make up that difference…
I’d like to know where that arbitrary 70% came from. Pre-patch I utilised 0/30/25/15/0 and stacked 10-ish Might when using the stealth cycle and dodges for damage, but I removed it for the sake of Revealed screwing the cycle. That was one of the most reliable methods of buffing DPS, and admittedly that is gone, but where is this “70%”? Like I said, if I weren’t so cheap, I’d go full Berserker on the gear, so don’t mention that.
Do you include CnD and tactical strike in with your damage rotation with your sword?