All you stealth abusers brought this on yourselves. What the 1,000 topics on this problem were all just community QQ in your minds lol ….. funny stuff here today.
ANET DEVS this was a long long time coming thank you very much!
For every bad thief that leaves today 10 players will return for this patch.
Hahahaha. It’s ppl like you that form the cancer of gaming communities.
Basically what YOU want is to kill thieves and you can’t cuz they run?
I doubt YOU play thief. A thief has ZERO defense besides stealth and a dodge or two…thats why we RUN and HIDE and not STAY cuz we can’t FACETANK, or do illussions and BUFF ourselves with SHIELDS and CHAINDODGE and sorts. Do you know what landing an effective backstab takes? I bet you wouldn’t even land a CnD.
Play a thief and come here or GTFO.
Thief is a PLAY STYLE as a PROFESSION!
People like you are why serious players use the guru forums.
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All bets are off when you start sacrificing DPS for survivability. At that point you shouldn’t care about maximizing your DPS because your doing so much LESS damage then you could be anyways, why bother.
Well I can argue that survivability is DPS since you do zero DPS when dead.
Might not be high damage, but dependable damage.
Survivability for a lot of player comes from skill, not HP.
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All bets are off when you start sacrificing DPS for survivability. At that point you shouldn’t care about maximizing your DPS because your doing so much LESS damage then you could be anyways, why bother.
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While I do hate the odd backstab that doesn’t crit, there’s something so much more satisfying about the abundance of 12k-14k backstabs I see with Executioner.
That and the patch broke Hidden Killer.
Just sayin’.
Yup, Executioner is better if you have over 60% crit chance
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With the 1 second added to the revealed debuff, this has probably thrown all of us out of sync. Even if you didnt specifically run through the DS > WS > LS chain, you still got used to the timing in your head.
Our internal timing will come back with time. Soon, we wont even think about that extra second. So I wanted to make this thread of a list of additions we can use in to give us something to do for that one second.
So, coming out of stealth and being revealed due to landing a backstab can be followed up by:
DS > WS > LS > Scorpion Wire > CnD
- This what I used to do when I first started playing the Backstab build months ago before I took a break. Scorpion Wire is also great for interrupting their heal, pulling them to you, and setting up for another CnD > Backstab.
With Critical Haste (2 sec quickness) (DS > WS > LS) > DS > WS > LS > CnD
- With Critical Haste kicking in, it’s perfect for getting off 2x #1 chains > CnD perfectly, almost like DS > WS > LS > CnD was before the 1 second addition.
DS > WS > LS > Black Powder > Heartseeker > Backstab
- Also works perfectly, since your dont stealth until after you land with HS. This was unaffected, but now your BP > HS will perfectly sync with this.
For PvE, none of those make any sense.
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There are other factors in your build that can influence your result.
Example: Procs coming from Opportunist and First Strike can be a balance tipper, plus the procs of Critical Haste.
So yeah, on paper it looks that way, but if you add into your calculation the probability of your traits proc-ing, I assure you, you’ll get a very different result.
I’m glad you brought those up, in a standard D/D build you only need infusion of shadow to be initiative stable (and that was with a 4 second rotation), so opportunist is not applicable.
First Strike ties into that, you should never drop below 6 init unless you miss your CnD.
Finally, critical haste is a VERY VERY small portion of damage, it’s defiantly there and worth it, but mathematically it’s insignificant to comparing 40% and 60% crit-chance. Same with sundering strikes, the internal cool-downs do a serious number on the actual effectiveness of the abilities.
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If you take any initative recovering traits you will see a MASSIVE drop in DPS, the power and the crit tree have so many 5% and 10% damage modifiers, you really can’t move any points around without losing dps.
You gain might stacks and survivability from healing and condition removeal though.
Its hardly the case that you can stick all the time on the boss and if you can, then Mesmers and Warriors will both be able to outdamage you by far anyway.
In a real PvE enviroment, a good thief can stick to an enemy longer as other classes due to the stealth mechanic and dodges, if they trait for it. With that their damage output should be higher as with classes who only range the enemy…. at least that is how it feels for me in fractals.
I don’t have any trouble sticking on bosses as long as heavy melee classes, even with a 30/30/10/0/0 build and full berzerker. It’s just a high skill ceiling.
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However, important thing to note here though is that this was also modeled on a pure GC thief. Anybody who runs a more balanced build (i.e. higher HP, lower crit) will have their DPS more skewed towards contribution from BS due to Hidden Killer. For example, my crit rate is only about 40% (60% with fury), so my auto won’t be critting as often as zerker thief’s, hence BS is a bigger portion of my damage. Hence the new rotations will have a bigger negative impact to my DPS than to a pure zerker thief. I don’t know how many thieves run full GC for high end PVE content, but I certainly don’t feel comfortable with it.
Backstab, while a large chunk of your damage, is still not enough that you would want to take hidden killer. The 20% damage below 50% health, I think of that as a flat 10% damage boost, while hidden killer only gives you 40-60% crit chance with 1 ability.
Some basic high school math.
Let X = BS damage
Since AA + CnD does roughly two times the BS damage, let AA + CnD = 2X
Let C = crit chance
Let D = crit damage
I’m not using tooltip damage from builders because it does not take into account your stats and skill multipliers. You can test your own numbers in game and substitute instead of X, you’ll find it’s not far from reality. In fact, the higher your power, the better BS scales, hence becoming more than AA + CnD / 2.
Left side of the equation = Executioner
Right side of the equation = Hidden Killer
For Executioner to be superior to Hidden Killer, the following equation must be true:
Most damage oriented thieves should have around 100% bonus crit damage. Hence, D = 1.
0.65C + 1.3C > 1.2
1.95C > 1.2
C > 0.6154
Therefore, with 100% bonus crit damage, you need to maintain at least ~61.5% crit chance for Executioner to be on average better. The higher your crit damage gets, the higher the minimum crit chance requirement also gets for Executioner to remain superior. The converse is true as well. For tankier builds that don’t have as much crit damage, a lower crit requirement is needed.
Therefore, for ME personally, even with constant fury uptime, Hidden Killer is the better trait.
Looks like we got about the same thing. And yes the skill builders are only good for 1 thing, determining power for your build. The crit chance and damage modifier is total trash since it includes some traits but not others, you just work those out on your own.
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If your looking for the HIGHEST DAMAGE in PvE, and don’t care about anything else.
30/30/10/0/0 with damage traits + Infusion of Shadow, is the highest sustained damage you can get.
The might doesn’t come anywhere NEAR as much damage, because its not 5% + 10%. Damage modifiers are cumulative, so your actually losing 58% (1.58) on your damage modifier.
Not only that, but your losing 200 Power as well.
Your DPS drops from 7466 DPS to around 4457 DPS when you switch from a 30/30/10 build into a 10/30/30 Build. You would need ~6 stacks of might to make up for the power difference, and then enough might to counter the damage modifiers.
The pitiful amount of defense you gain is not… worth it…
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Hey guys, I’m back. I threw some numbers into a graphing calculator to determine what % crit chance you need for executioner to become better then Hidden Killer for D/D PvE Thieves. PLEASE READ THIS: This information pertains to PVE THIEVES MOSTLY. PvP has a verity of factors like wanting to go tanky ect… ect…
Here is what I came up with.
Red = 5 Second Rotation + Executioner
Green= 5 Second Rotation + Hidden Killer
Blue = 6.75 Rotation + Executioner
Purple = 6.75 Rotation + Executioner
So Executioner > Hidden Killer once you reach around 63-66% Crit-Chance (and that’s with berzerker and valk gear, using gear without crit damage (Knights) will move the results so Executioner is better.)
To graph these, all I did was make X = Crit Chance, then simplified the damage equation I used in my other post. Yay spreadsheets!
Build: http://tinyurl.com/c2xkvmx
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However, important thing to note here though is that this was also modeled on a pure GC thief. Anybody who runs a more balanced build (i.e. higher HP, lower crit) will have their DPS more skewed towards contribution from BS due to Hidden Killer. For example, my crit rate is only about 40% (60% with fury), so my auto won’t be critting as often as zerker thief’s, hence BS is a bigger portion of my damage. Hence the new rotations will have a bigger negative impact to my DPS than to a pure zerker thief. I don’t know how many thieves run full GC for high end PVE content, but I certainly don’t feel comfortable with it.
Yes, Below 60% crit chance, your going to want hidden killer.
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Enemies often dont let you stand the whole time behind them though, but if they do and you have some initiative recovery traits, then you can also toss in a heartseeker after your AA-Chain. Espeacily when your enemy is below 50% or 25% you will get a higher DPS output. Still even with Quick Recovery and Infiltration Signet you will eventually run dry on initiative.
You can try to postpone that effect with Smokescreen, dropping it when you are low on init and do a heartseeker through it. The duration of smokescreen is enough for you to do:
Smokescreen->HS->BS->AA-Chain->HS->HS->BS
Problem with HS though is that you are stuck for 3/4 sec in the animation, which can give a boss enough time to turn around and smack your face.
In case we dont have to dodge often and with that arent able to apply BS every 4 sec, then the whole point is moot anyway, but if we are able to do that then we probatly need to choose from different rotations, depending on our initiative.
CnD->BS->AA-Chain->AA-filler->CND->BS….
CnD->BS->AA-Chain->HS->CnD->BS…
Smokescreen->HS->BS->AA-Chain->HS->HS->BS…
If you take any initative recovering traits you will see a MASSIVE drop in DPS, the power and the crit tree have so many 5% and 10% damage modifiers, you really can’t move any points around without losing dps.
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In PvE your supposed to bring a verity of weapons for multiple situations.
the 30/30/10/0/0 trait set is the top DPS for all direct damage weapon sets, sword, p/p, d/d, shortbow. (yes it even does more damage then a full initiative regain on weapon swap p/p build)
P/P is only supposed to be used against single targets where you have to keep your distance.
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That wasn’t as much of a nerf as this was. The new thief rotation just feels so… “sticky” now. I guess you could chalk it up to D/D Thief having a higher skill ceiling but… It still has terrible play feel.
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I don’t have the data right now, I’ll mull over it when I get home and update this post. But it seems that the extra second of revealed has now caused us to have to either do 2 auto attack chains before backstabbing, or breaking in the middle of our auto attack chain.
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10g per hour is a lie if you dont include the melton core and some rare drops you got once in awhile.
Even a team with the smartest mesmer + highest dps warriors, you can only do up to around 8 runs per hour no matter how fast you are. (You have to consider waiting and loading in and even selling trashes)
That only net you about 7g per hr maximum. (including selling all junks)
Plus you have to consider the diminishing reward of dungeon completion after redoing so many times . (It’ll drop down to 3s eventually), neting you less $$ after the first hour you run.
Where is your math sir? We can do about 8 and a half runs per hour, each run netting around 1.50 gold.
And I very much do include core’s and rares, (not nearly as much as they ACTUALLY drop), but when your running so many runs it’s pretty much gonna happen.
10 gold was a LOWBALL
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Basically we are composed of really talented but casual players who spend way too much time online.
We are all friends but we all met online so everyone who joins will become our friend
We primarily play between 2pm-3am EST so were pretty active.
Requirements:
Level 80
Have exotics or enough money to buy exotics
Not afraid to try builds our expert theory crafters make
18 Years of age + (Or be mature enough and just lie to us)
And we have about 6 thieves right now so group comp is a PAIN, the more characters the better!
We accept guild merges (and any lowbies that come with them <3)
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2 things are wrong with EffPower
1. It doesn’t take into account attack/ability speed or weapon damage, so comparing EffPower between different classes will lose it’s usefulness or something.
2. The website only takes into account SOME of the damage modifiers, there are a few traits like the 20% damage under 50% that the website doesn’t pick up on.
And those points are relevant to this topic because…?
Yes. “The Effective Power formula can be simplified to
Effective Power = Power × [1 + Critical Chance × (Critical Multiplier – 1)] × Damage Multiplier”
Last Scholar Rune gave 4 times as much EffPower as difference between 6 Ruby Orbs and 5 Scholar Runes.
2 things are wrong with EffPower
1. It doesn’t take into account attack/ability speed or weapon damage, so comparing EffPower between different classes will lose it’s usefulness or something.
2. The website only takes into account SOME of the damage modifiers, there are a few traits like the 20% damage under 50% that the website doesn’t pick up on.
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There are the 2 consumables that benefits pure condition damage dealers, the bombs are on delay if enemy comes to them (like mines), Molachevs (that i have 2 stacks of) are a line that only burns for as long as the enemy is inside of it and doesnt do additional damage, but can stack up to 4 minutes of burning if the enemy moves alongs the line.
But if you really wanna be a condition necro, you probably have terror, thus use http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grawl_Ritual_Totem.
Which mine/bomb applies burning?
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I checked the math for some odd reason (and without a calculator) and 5 runes of the mes + 1 ruby orb has 65 more power but 20 less precision and 10% less crit damage.
Now I don’t have a formula for how much damage power adds but I don’t think 65 power is more than 10% crit damage.
Also rune of the scholar indeed wins overall.
The equation to calculate the power is actually in the original post.
And indeed I didn’t believe it was true either, 10% crit damage seems like such an awesome trait BUT…
Power increases your base damage in such a way that it will always be better then crit damage, it’s in the math, and I didn’t realize it till I started playing around with the numbers.
This is the same reason why truffle steak (power percision) is the top DPS food now (that pies are gone).
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Reason why I actually roll with Scholars is that I need just 25% up-time for 90% health to get on-par with Ruby Orbs and since there are so many encounters where you are > 90% of time above 90% it really pays off.
Effective Power is a broken statistic, sorry :/ Do you even know what it is?
Buildcraft picks and chooses which traits and stats it wants to acknowledge, it’s a great site, but not for ironing out how much damage you do.
How did you calculate the 25% uptime number for the runes of scholar?
I can see that you are a CoF path 1 farmer, so yes scholar runes would be best for you.
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does any1 know how to do it, like after the 1st cut scenes some people grab her so she follows them to the gate, the one magg blows up.
So there isn’t any waiting in the gate part
While someone is in the video, just walk up to the NPC and hit activate to open up a chat with her, and boom your done, doesnt matter what dilagoue you hit.
You can actually do it with magg and the other NPC as well, it’s pretty silly.
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Well i was going to comment saying it was an appropriate name, since the mystic forge only seems to give me crap. But you seem to have gotten lucky, is there a video of it or something? How much money’s worth did you put in?
Where? Anvil Rock MYSTIC FORGE
Who? EVERYONE!!!!
When? 3/9 11pm EST
11pm EST (Same As Server Time)
What? A LEGENDARY PARTY
I will be dumping a lot of yellows into the mystic forge in an attempt to get my legendary and were having a big party for good luck.
Were gonna have EVERYTHING. Toy boxes, molotovs, drake egg hunts, SWEET HYLeK POTION RAVE PARTIES!!!!!!!!! Dozens of guild banners and banquets. BRING EVERYTHING that is FUN , cause we certainly are.
The after party will either be held in the SEWERS, if I fail, or ON TOP OF THE BANK, if I succeed!
Bring your legies or dump thing into the mystic forge, there won’t be a better time to do it
P.S. make sure to bump this post if your coming and invite all your friends!!!
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