Guild Wars 2

Iruwen.3164:

Shootsfoot.9276:

There needs to be vertical progression, but it needs to be slow. Otherwise this game will live the life of GW1. A very small niche of players running around and doing the same thing over and over again with no real rewards other than it being their idea of “fun.”

Although most of what you write isn’t actually “wrong”, the conclusions you draw unfortunately are.

And you are more than welcome to your opinion.

Graybes.8251:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Graybes.8251:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Graybes.8251:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Vayne.8563:

Shootsfoot.9276:

rizzo.1079:

I’ve only seen the ingame population growing since I got the game in November. Are you guys on really servers or something?

Is it because of growth or guesting?

Must be some growth since I’m getting new people in my guild. Like complete newbies. Also a few returned people who left and said they were never coming back. They were wrong. lol

Yet after this last patch not once have I been put into overflow when after every other patch all I saw was overflow.

You really need to try harder…You are going to get less overflows because people aren’t going to every event with alts because of the recent change.

I need to try harder?

What is it with you people and your juvenile attempt at insults?

I’m honestly wondering if trying to have a conversation in this place is even possible.

When you try to have a conversation you should usually try to think about what you are saying before you say it. Claiming the population is decreasing because you don’t get as many overflows after a patch that specifically had a change that would decrease overflows is just reeking of trolling.

Don’t act like a victim here when you claim the population is decreasing while completely ignoring that basically the entire patch was going to bring more people into WvW (decreasing overflows) and stop people from doing events with alts (decreasing overflows)

>sigh<

Was just trying to have a discussion about these so-called “indicators” of game growth and point out anectdotal evidence is just that…anectdotal. Wasn’t at all claiming growth was dropping, but I guess I convinced you without even trying because apparently it made you want to jump down my throat for “trolling(?).”

You got me. (With anectdotal evidence, I might add)

Yay you.

“Acting like a victim.”

I actually laughed out loud at that here in the office.

People amaze me.

Your anecdotal evidence stems from ignorance. But what would the internet be without people purposely ignoring things that defeat their own point?

Wow, I don’t know how I can put it into any simpler terms for you to understand it so I guess I’ll just quit here.

By the way, this is where you lean back in your chair and pat yourself on the back thinking you won this “argument” you were apparently dying to start.

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.

I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.

Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.

Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.

7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.

One of the best selling PC games ever made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games

There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.

I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.

That list is way wrong.

Look how many copies they are saying WoW sold.

That’s because they count each expansion of WoW separate.

Ah, I see.

Still pretty misleading.

Yes, it would be better if they were all included in one number. Even so, it is easy to see that compared to other multiplayer online PC games, GW1 did pretty kitten well.

It did do well, no doubt.

But that doesn’t mean people stayed because they loved the design of grinding for asthetics.

Don’t get mad, but just listen for a second. Take the rewards out of the game and think, is this game good just for the actual sake of playing the game?

That is the question we need to ask. And in GW1, in may cases it was. Why?

1. Beautiful world with amazing lore.
2. One of the best cooperative RPG’s ever made
3. One of the best PvP RPG games ever made
4. The story line was very well written and executed
5. The immersion into the world of Tyria was done well

Some of these things can be found in GW2, some are not. None of them have to do with rewards. Same thing can be said of EVE, it is good because the game play is good, not because the rewards are good.

Look at FPS games. There are really no rewards in those games. They are playable over and over again because they are fun to play.

When we stop looking at MMOs in terms of rewards and look at them in terms of whether content is fun to play, that is when we will find the next WoW beater.

See, here’s the issue…you’re taking your opinion of what makes the game great and applying it to everybody when it’s just not possible to do so. If what you are saying really was the hooking part of the game, then after 4 years (arbitrary number)
I wouldn’t be logging into an essentially empty Lion’s Arch in GW. The 6 million who bought the game would still be there.

And I’m sorry, running missions which were on rails over and over again in GW was not fun to me, nor was the tedium of gearing/speccing heroes so they could run those missions with me, nor was it apparently fun for 4+ million other people who eventually left and found other things to do.

You can’t use your opinion of what makes a game great and make it the standard, Clay.

You just can’t.

And I’m sorry, but killing a world boss for the 8th time and not getting a reward for it in some way (a MEANINGFUL reward instead of just salvage fodder) is a waste of my time because it’s jut not that important to me to let everybody know I’ve killed that boss for the 8th time.

Having to buy a frigging key dozens of time in hope for a RNG to hit for me so I could have a skin drop isn’t fun for me.

Oh, and FPS aren’t fun for me, either. I just don’t get them.

There needs to be vertical progression, but it needs to be slow. Otherwise this game will live the life of GW1. A very small niche of players running around and doing the same thing over and over again with no real rewards other than it being their idea of “fun.”

And I’m not saying that’s bad for those players, but it is bad for the long-term outlook of the game, which, in turn affects those players.

And I’m not mad. :P

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

It never appealed to the “masses” though. See I have kids in the house and I know what’s talked about. Both the kids left Guild Wars to play WoW, along with all their friends. Eventually, you’d walk into stores and Guild Wars would be in the discount rack.

I went the other way. I left WoW to play Guild Wars. Do you know how many characters I had in Guild Wars? 37, over two accounts. Every single one of them finished Factions and Eye of the North, and most of them finished Prophecies or Nightfall or both. Yeah, I was a die hard fan. There were things I felt could have been done better, but I was a fan.

But I also watched what people were doing. There was WoW with it’s ten million active accounts (Guild Wars sold 7 million copies over a period of 7 years) and a zillion WoW clones. Guild Wars with more of a cult thing. Those who played it thought it was the bees knees (as we say downunder) but a zillion other people thought it was a joke…it was known largely in as a PvP game. A lot of people didn’t even know it had PVe. Frustrated the hell out of me.

The point is, for Anet to take the game to the next step and really create a huge world and content, it would have to appeal to a larger number….remember Anet supported a staff of about 50 people, not 270. In order for them to go where they wanted and take the game to the next level, they had to go mainstream.

And mainstream was my sons, and all the other guys who got trained not just by WoW, but they 87 gazillion games copying WoW. It sucks but that’s how I see it.

This is where we differ. WoW was a phenomenon that can’t be replicated, at least not in their style. I know you think GW2 isn’t a lot like WoW, but underneath the hood, it is. They are very very similar, even though GW2 is a great game and does do some things different.

Now, it is my personal opinion, as a marketing professional, that the best ROI is usually through appealing to a niche crowd. You can disagree all you want, but the fact is that there have been huge budgets for huge games that haven’t come close to taking down WoW.

In fact, the only two games of the last 10 years that could come close to being called successes (other than WoW) are EVE and GW1. GW2 may be a success, but with 6 months in, we can’t really make any concrete determinations thus far.

Basically, I think it is naive to think that in order to beat WoW you need to join WoW. I think, in order to beat WoW you need to be innovative and new. GW2 may be a step in the right direction, but I don’t think it is going to be the WoW killer you think it could be.

Last, I think that vertical gear progression is a lazy way to add to a game’s longevity – and it isn’t going to help to make a game that beats WoW. The game that beats WoW is going to be a game that has better content, not better rewards.

Or both.

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.

I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.

Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.

Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.

7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.

One of the best selling PC games ever made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games

There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.

I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.

That list is way wrong.

Look how many copies they are saying WoW sold.

That’s because they count each expansion of WoW separate.

Ah, I see.

Still pretty misleading.

Yes, it would be better if they were all included in one number. Even so, it is easy to see that compared to other multiplayer online PC games, GW1 did pretty kitten well.

It did do well, no doubt.

But that doesn’t mean people stayed because they loved the design of grinding for asthetics.

Graybes.8251:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Graybes.8251:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Vayne.8563:

Shootsfoot.9276:

rizzo.1079:

I’ve only seen the ingame population growing since I got the game in November. Are you guys on really servers or something?

Is it because of growth or guesting?

Must be some growth since I’m getting new people in my guild. Like complete newbies. Also a few returned people who left and said they were never coming back. They were wrong. lol

Yet after this last patch not once have I been put into overflow when after every other patch all I saw was overflow.

You really need to try harder…You are going to get less overflows because people aren’t going to every event with alts because of the recent change.

I need to try harder?

What is it with you people and your juvenile attempt at insults?

I’m honestly wondering if trying to have a conversation in this place is even possible.

When you try to have a conversation you should usually try to think about what you are saying before you say it. Claiming the population is decreasing because you don’t get as many overflows after a patch that specifically had a change that would decrease overflows is just reeking of trolling.

Don’t act like a victim here when you claim the population is decreasing while completely ignoring that basically the entire patch was going to bring more people into WvW (decreasing overflows) and stop people from doing events with alts (decreasing overflows)

>sigh<

Was just trying to have a discussion about these so-called “indicators” of game growth and point out anectdotal evidence is just that…anectdotal. Wasn’t at all claiming growth was dropping, but I guess I convinced you without even trying because apparently it made you want to jump down my throat for “trolling(?).”

You got me. (With anectdotal evidence, I might add)

Yay you.

“Acting like a victim.”

I actually laughed out loud at that here in the office.

People amaze me.

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.

I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.

Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.

Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.

7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.

One of the best selling PC games ever made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games

There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.

I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.

That list is way wrong.

Look how many copies they are saying WoW sold.

That’s because they count each expansion of WoW separate.

Ah, I see.

Still pretty misleading.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.

I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.

Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.

Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.

7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.

One of the best selling PC games ever made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games

There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.

I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.

That list is way wrong.

Look how many copies they are saying WoW sold.

Graybes.8251:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Vayne.8563:

Shootsfoot.9276:

rizzo.1079:

I’ve only seen the ingame population growing since I got the game in November. Are you guys on really servers or something?

Is it because of growth or guesting?

Must be some growth since I’m getting new people in my guild. Like complete newbies. Also a few returned people who left and said they were never coming back. They were wrong. lol

Yet after this last patch not once have I been put into overflow when after every other patch all I saw was overflow.

You really need to try harder…You are going to get less overflows because people aren’t going to every event with alts because of the recent change.

I need to try harder?

What is it with you people and your juvenile attempt at insults?

I’m honestly wondering if trying to have a conversation in this place is even possible.

Vayne.8563:

Shootsfoot.9276:

rizzo.1079:

I’ve only seen the ingame population growing since I got the game in November. Are you guys on really servers or something?

Is it because of growth or guesting?

Must be some growth since I’m getting new people in my guild. Like complete newbies. Also a few returned people who left and said they were never coming back. They were wrong. lol

Yet after this last patch not once have I been put into overflow when after every other patch all I saw was overflow. And the last 4 people of our guild just found another guild to move to because nobody in our 50+ member guild logs in any more.

I’m not so sure it’s growth, much as I’d like it to be.

rizzo.1079:

I’ve only seen the ingame population growing since I got the game in November. Are you guys on really servers or something?

Is it because of growth or guesting?

Well, the one problem I see with no gear progression is in the Trading Post. Once everybody gets what they need, after a few years not much is going to sell on there because nobody is going to need the mats any more.

BioFringe.7945:

If you’re saying that you no longer agree to them and thereby will cease to play, well then the only thing I have to ask is…really? Over this?

And….Can I has yer stuffz?

Iruwen.3164:

HiddenNick.7206:

clay.7849:

This is a great video someone showed me once about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards playing video games.

Author did a mistake there… In WoW your grinding not to just get the items but to get items powerful enough to overcome next challenge. What’s wrong with that?!

If you like what WoW does, why aren’t you playing WoW? It was clear that GW2 wouldn’t have the vertical progression you want.

But it wasn’t clear the horizontal progression they hyped would depend so heavily on an RNG.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

I disagree with your points made. How many content upgrades did Prophecies have when it was six months old? What did they get? Sorrow’s Furnace? FoTM absolutely was better than that.

No, I don’t think it was. I could play the Sorrow’s Furnace stuff with or without other players. FoTM, not so much. Here in GW2 they keep adding ‘content’ that is out of my reach. I either have to do something else (that I don’t want to do) first or I can’t do it alone. I’m not opposed to teaming, but I generally only team with friends, and when they’re not around I tend to play solo. There’s no valid reason FoTM couldn’t have been designed to allow for solo play (the same goes for teams with more than 5 players). And for those who will say, “It’s an MMO, you’re supposed to team up!” I say what difference does it make if players form teams or play solo so long as they are playing?

I’m sorry to break this to you, but GW was in no way an MMO.

Mitch.4781:

Well imo GW1 prophecies had a LOT more content at launch than GW2 anyways. I mean just look at the map…a good 3rd of the map has yet to be revealed! In GW1 it was all available from the get go.

Because the maps are exactly the same size, right?

Good grief.

+1

It makes avoiding damage as melee pretty-near impossible because you can’t see animations leading up to a big hit.

Orc Slayer.2780:

Adine.2184:

The fact you limit yourself to Heavy melee is not ANETS fault . Perhaps you should try a melee Ranger you may find you like it. Remember just because a class wears heavy armor in GW 2 doesn’t mean you will tank any better than a Ranger or a Thief. Are skills limited, yes quite a bit and im sure more will be added in the future but you may as well utilize what you’ve got for now.

My play choice has nothing to do with Anet .Not being able to customize my skills/ char the way I want is their fault, which is what my above post says. They can change this so I can customize it.

Tell me how much you could “customize” your toon in WoW.

I played WoW for 6 years, so don’t even begin to tell me how flexible the talent trees were in it. There was always one optimal, cookie-cutter build everybody used and always one optimal skill rotation/priority.

Couldn’t imagine having to live there.

This can’t be a serious suggestion.

RebelYell.7132:

uknortherner.2670:

Want a trinity? Go play a game that has it and stop trying to turn this one into WoW II.

I’ve done just that. I played the silly panda game when it came out. I’m back here, so obviously I see more potential for betterment in GW2.

So you don’t like primadonna tanks, spineless healers, or lazy DPS who are barely paying attention. Great! Neither do self-aware WoW players.

However, I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss the OP just because he used the word “trinity”. There’s a legitimate issue here that needs addressing: professions have poorly defined roles on a team. Warriors, Guardians, and Mesmers are popular, because they have been theorycrafted into finely honed machines. Other GW2 professions fall victim to poor synergy between their traits, skills, and core mechanic This, I feel, is because they are a hodgepodge, rather than built with a cohesive playstyle in mind.

Instead of dismissing the trinity as being something iconic of the most popular MMORPG, lets take a look at what it does for the game. By taking on the role of DPS, Tank, or Healer, the game can be balanced so that you can perform that role to a certain degree of competitive efficacy. A healer that simulates at 95% of the FOTM healer is way more viable than any profession in GW2 playing Support compared to a Guardian.

But let’s go for something closer to home. In Guild Wars 1. Each profession had a trait only they could take, defining how they played. A necromancer gained energy as foes around them are defeated, causing their power to cascade. This allowed them to serve numerous roles, from summoning an army of minions that zerged the frontlines, to playing healers that became more effective as the fight progressed. Elementalists straight up had more energy reserves than any other profession, allowing them to be built for numerous tasks. See http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Team_roles

City of Heroes, a game I cannot go back to even if I wanted to, also did the “Damage/Support/Control” thing in a notable manner. Each “archetype” is designed for those in differing degrees. There were tanks and healers, but they were part of the grander scheme, and having done every type of content, from story arcs, to task forces, up through raiding, I never once encountered content that I needed a tank or healer to complete.

I really liked the frontline/midline/backline model.

Well stated, Rebel.

Look at his OP. It explains.

Euryon.9248:

Nope, not going to get into it with you. You seem to think heavy plate wearers waving around a scepter like a tennis racquet and rolling around like Olympic gymnasts is good design.

See, this illustrates the problem I have with much of the “need trinity”-like posts in this thread. There is an underlying current that RESTRICTING what people can do is a good idea. Not only are you talking about trying to pigeonhole classes themselves, ultimately you’re also talking about pigeonholing builds.

Example: Group needs a warrior for DPS. Fine, I join, but I don’t have a cookie-cutter warrior built around absolute max/min of DPS. Instead I have (and use) my longbow on occasion (fire field is nice), and my gear may be tuned for some survivability/tanking. Group doesn’t want my build, they want pure min/max DPS build, kick me out because my build doesn’t fit their trinity preconceptions.

I don’t want a game with cookie-cutter builds that fit one of 3 very specific roles. I like build flexibility. I like being able to use weapons that may not be the absolute best choice for pure tanking or DPS. I like being able to heal myself and dodge, or stand in and take a few hits when I think I’ve worn the baddie down to where I can out-DPS him.

And I also like being able to log in during slow times or when my friends aren’t online, and play the game by myself, without being stymied because the game requires that I have a tank or a healer with me to make any meaningful progress.

There are games out there that impose these restrictions. I don’t want GW2 to become another version of that. It has a niche that fits my style of play. Don’t try to take this one game away from me so you can have yet another enforced-trinity game to add to the pantheon.

No, you’re missing my point. Probably because I’m not expressing it well.

My point is more about fight mechanics than the trinity. I’ve already voiced my opinion several times that if you want a “trinity” of support, damage, and control, then make it feel like you’re actually “supporting,” or “controlling.”

Most of the mechanics in dungeons are either run past the hordes of mobs and hope we don’t die to get to the next boss, which is going to be pretty much every man for themselves, dodge the red circles, and res anybody in a downed state. Generalizing, of course. Now that brings me back around to this “trinity” thing….

As it stands now the main priority for everybody is damage. After that you start looking at the other two which are de-facto “secondary” roles.

In regards to what you quoted of my post, I’m stating that fights/dungeons that require only ranged fighting are, in fact, limiting who is preferred in dungeons. Just ask any engineer.

They have the support, but their damage is miserable. Same with rangers.

Now, let’s give those engineers or rangers a whole bunch of interrupts or CCs which lessen the need for everybody to tumble on the ground constantly, and now what are we looking at?

We’re looking at two professions who are now a valued asset in party makeup.

Do we have to have them? Nope.

But they sure are welcome.

THAT is support and control.

Now you’re looking at a functional soft trininty, which is what this game is about.

Hoyvin.3241:

TheDaiBish.9735:

You NEED a Healer and you NEED a Tank. There’s no deviation from that, and without them you can’t do the content.

Are you saying that in GW2 you need a tank and healer? Because you must have a different version of the game than I do. Are you playing on a Mac or something?

No, he’s saying in a hard, classic trinity you need the two and without them you can’t do the instance.

Gehenna.3625:

Kaeden.6952:

There is a trinity,

It’s called:

Damage
Control
Support

There is some truth to that and I don’t think the trinity is a solution for GW2 but I do think that this trinity you present is not really a functional trinity, specifically in PvE.

In PvE control is basically useless so there really is only damage and support. And all character classes can do both. Also the OP is right about dodging and such being vital factors, more than your class.

That doesn’t work for everyone. I agree the idea was nice but the reality is lacking for me. Still I don’t see bringing in the trinity is a solution for this.

Exactly.

Dawdler.8521:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Maybe he got mutated by standing in this pillar of light that transports you anywhere in the world in a fraction of a second.

That’s a ridiculus statement, only 1 in 10,000 Asurans are reported to be turned inside out by the waypoint system and never has mutation occured.

Don’t be naive. There have been plenty of mutations. They’ve all been gathered up and moved to The Crystal Desert.

Dawdler.8521:

There could be flies with pants. Mutated flies. Its possible. After all it was a corpse fly, wasnt it? It could have stolen the pants from a corpse.

Just as possible as dragons pooping out shining giant chests.

Maybe he got mutated by standing in this pillar of light that transports you anywhere in the world in a fraction of a second.

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control?

You are right its so much better to stick to old stereotypes forever. Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!
Also, game is designed around fast-phaced action so short control skills are well balanced as they are. Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.

Ah, you’re one of those people…build strawmen then knock them down.

Should’ve tossed in a “go back to WoW” for good measure, maybe.

Strawmen….. I do not think that word means what you think it means…..

Uh, yeah, plenty clear about what it means. He completely misrepresented my argument.

That, my friend, is a strawman.

And “you’re doing it wrong” is not a counterpoint.

Unless, of course, you’re still in high school.

Fine, i misrepresented your post. Care to explain to us plebs what “system” is in game designing?
I did mean to suggest that you should seek out help with your control build but i edited due to some censorshi kitten ues…counterpoint would be fact that game is built with fast-phaced action in mind, thus short duration control skills, right?

Nope, not going to get into it with you. You seem to think heavy plate wearers waving around a scepter like a tennis racquet and rolling around like Olympic gymnasts is good design.

I don’t.

No point in continuing the discussion, as far as I’m concerned.

Cant say it was much of a discussion.

Wasn’t meant as an insult. I’m just saying you and I have fundamental differences in view of the mechanics and there won’t be any convincing each other otherwise so there’s just no point.

I’m not saying I hate this game, far from it.

What I am saying is there are vast improvements which can be made.

My goal is not to persuade you that im right and you are wrong. But by stating my point of view, and you yours, we are giving informations that MIGHT influence direction of improvements which will be made, or not.

Really? Let’s look at your responses again:

“Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!”

“Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.”

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control?

You are right its so much better to stick to old stereotypes forever. Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!
Also, game is designed around fast-phaced action so short control skills are well balanced as they are. Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.

Ah, you’re one of those people…build strawmen then knock them down.

Should’ve tossed in a “go back to WoW” for good measure, maybe.

Strawmen….. I do not think that word means what you think it means…..

Uh, yeah, plenty clear about what it means. He completely misrepresented my argument.

That, my friend, is a strawman.

And “you’re doing it wrong” is not a counterpoint.

Unless, of course, you’re still in high school.

Fine, i misrepresented your post. Care to explain to us plebs what “system” is in game designing?
I did mean to suggest that you should seek out help with your control build but i edited due to some censorshi kitten ues…counterpoint would be fact that game is built with fast-phaced action in mind, thus short duration control skills, right?

Nope, not going to get into it with you. You seem to think heavy plate wearers waving around a scepter like a tennis racquet and rolling around like Olympic gymnasts is good design.

I don’t.

No point in continuing the discussion, as far as I’m concerned.

Cant say it was much of a discussion.

Wasn’t meant as an insult. I’m just saying you and I have fundamental differences in view of the mechanics and there won’t be any convincing each other otherwise so there’s just no point.

I’m not saying I hate this game, far from it.

What I am saying is there are vast improvements which can be made.

Infernia.9847:

Please use the official forums to update your player base first.
Facebook & Twitter are not used by everyone. (as much as those social media outlets would like you to think they are).

Like now?

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control?

You are right its so much better to stick to old stereotypes forever. Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!
Also, game is designed around fast-phaced action so short control skills are well balanced as they are. Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.

Ah, you’re one of those people…build strawmen then knock them down.

Should’ve tossed in a “go back to WoW” for good measure, maybe.

Strawmen….. I do not think that word means what you think it means…..

Uh, yeah, plenty clear about what it means. He completely misrepresented my argument.

That, my friend, is a strawman.

And “you’re doing it wrong” is not a counterpoint.

Unless, of course, you’re still in high school.

Fine, i misrepresented your post. Care to explain to us plebs what “system” is in game designing?
I did mean to suggest that you should seek out help with your control build but i edited due to some censorshi kitten ues…counterpoint would be fact that game is built with fast-phaced action in mind, thus short duration control skills, right?

Nope, not going to get into it with you. You seem to think heavy plate wearers waving around a scepter like a tennis racquet and rolling around like Olympic gymnasts is good design.

I don’t.

No point in continuing the discussion, as far as I’m concerned.

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control?

You are right its so much better to stick to old stereotypes forever. Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!
Also, game is designed around fast-phaced action so short control skills are well balanced as they are. Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.

Ah, you’re one of those people…build strawmen then knock them down.

Should’ve tossed in a “go back to WoW” for good measure, maybe.

Strawmen….. I do not think that word means what you think it means…..

Uh, yeah, plenty clear about what it means. He completely misrepresented my argument.

That, my friend, is a strawman.

And “you’re doing it wrong” is not a counterpoint.

Unless, of course, you’re still in high school.

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control?

You are right its so much better to stick to old stereotypes forever. Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!
Also, game is designed around fast-phaced action so short control skills are well balanced as they are. Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.

Ah, you’re one of those people…build strawmen then knock them down.

Should’ve tossed in a “go back to WoW” for good measure, maybe.

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control again?

Terok.7315:

There is a wide selection of games available that limit your playstyle if that’s what you’re looking for. GW2 doesn’t need the trinity, it was designed not to need it and did a pretty good job at it. I’m sorry you don’t agree.

I’m even more sorry you think these dungeons are well-designed.

I really hope this isn’t the prevailing feeling in this community because then it means running through trash hoping not to get killed to get to the next boss is going to be an accepted standard.

FateOmega.9601:

No Walking.6349:

Kaeden.6952:

There is a trinity,

It’s called:

Damage
Control
Support

ROFL, oh ok. So that must be why I can AFK any boss in the game outside of fractal lvl 30+ This includes all the world bosses and guild bounties.

No, we need a trinity.

Afk any boss? I call BS on it. Show me a boss where you can afk auto atk on it without other people wailing on it.

There aren’t any.

Just have to remember the hyperbole is the most common animal found in the internet world.

shyrith.3462:

Even trinity games are trying to break away from being trinity. FFXI for example. At first it was as trinity as it could get. Now, as long as you have whatever DPS role the devs have beefed up for the month, and a scholar, you can beat just about anything.

I did like trinity games. I liked strategy. But to say this game lacks strategy isn’t true. Try doing a dungeon with PUG. You would think if they just listened, it would be easy. But for me, it never has been. There’s always been at least 1 or 2 people that have made it difficult in one way or another that had forced me into working around them.

I don’t know what activities you are doing that you can afk and auto attack, other than maybe some DE and a certain boss in HOTW.

Trinity games are quickly becoming a thing of the past. I don’t know where this idea that TESO will be trinity is coming from. If you watch the video, it sounds like it will be exactly like GW2.

If GW1 is your idea of a good game, stick with it, cause likely there will never be another game like it.

I wouldn’t equate people not having a clue how to do a dungeon in a PUG with the difficulty of the dungeon, to be honest.

And just because I liked how GW1 put an importance on player position along with better defined roles doesn’t mean I want to go back to GW1.

I just don’t understand how people think the fighting mechanics as they stand now in GW2 don’t need improvement.

Shocks me, to be honest.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

I still say Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a trinity. WoW has a trinity.

The reason Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a trinity is because there’s no aggro mechanic. There’s no taunt mechanic. Sure Guild Wars 1 players called certain people tanks, but tanks weren’t strictly necessary, at least in PVe.

I never used a tank in PVe. Not once. That means that in Guild Wars 1, the trinity didn’t exist. Not as it does in other games.

No, not as in other games because of the lack of taunts. There was, however, an aggro mechanic, although there was some disagreement in the community over how it worked. It was possible to influence mobs to attack one character, who was then bolstered by Prot Spirit and heals while everyone else wailed away. Also, it was possible to use collision detection to control mobs.

I think the ideal combat mechanics might only exist in an as-yet-unexplored middle ground. Classic trinity, massive numbers of skills most of which see use infrequently, global cooldowns and static spell/ability use are all dated mechanics which suck the life out of combat for me. People talk about auto-attacking bosses in GW2. I don’t. What I do is much more interesting than standing in one spot spamming Flash Heal and Renew on one target through the whole fight. And what about DPS attack chains macroed onto one key? How is that interesting — unless all you like from your game is to watch big numbers above your target.

However, there is also something to be said for roles being better-defined. I thought, based on the GW2 pre-launch publicity, that CC was going to play a greater role in team play. Truth is, other than slows, CC is of limited use in PvE. Healing is not robust. Almost all of the team support options require fairly close proximity, but the team has to be coordinated for that. In a typical PuG, people freelance. I wish I had a silver for every time a player has dodge-rolled out of my Mark of Blood.

Yeah, the chain attack on the number 1 weapon skill was really disappointing to me. Really dumbed it down, I thought.

Vorch.2985:

Because dodging is the only way that you can avoid damage…there’s no way you can control enemies or support allies.

Yea…

• Conditions: wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition
• Crowd Control: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crowd_control
• Boons: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon

Those things aren’t used at all…

I am ashamed that I took the bait.

A 2 second stun is not “crowd control.”

It’s an interrupt, at best.

ATMAvatar.5749:

A trinity system doesn’t make for much more exciting combat. It just creates a privileged minority out of tanks and healers. So now, instead of a dungeon group just falling apart because of rampant stupidity and failure, it can also fall apart because of primadonnas rage-quitting when you don’t bend to their will.

Well, I’m not seeing a whole lot of merit in the “dps your rear-end off and when there’s a circle on the ground hit your dodge button” model either, to be honest. It was novel at first, now it’s just…well…a novelty.

And weapon choices?

I’m a guardian, holding a sword in one hand and a torch(?!) in the other and what’s my defense from going face to face with somebody? Roll around the ground like an Olympic gymnast in plate armor. Oh you don’t want to do that? Well then you need to grab a scepter and play tennis in your plate armor. Just make sure you don’t stand too close because in most of these fights, you try to melee and you’ll be dead in seconds because you can’t see the boss with all the particle effects to know when to roll around on the floor like a gymnast in your plate armor.

“Can I use my shield?”

Sure, but you don’t use it to block, really. You use it to shoot out some white light that does very minor damage.

“Well I need to be able to block.”

Oh, in that case you want to use a focus(?!) which has a blind and a shield.

“I’m confused.”

Doesn’t matter…just get in there and dps.

Oh, and if somebody goes down…just res ’em.

Poplolita.2638:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Poplolita.2638:

<.< …
>.>…

clay and shootsfoot, when are you going to marry?

No clue what you meant by that, but if it was an attempt at an insult, well…didn’t work.

It didn’t work because it wasn’t an attempt at an insult at all. If you didn’t get the joke, so be it. If you read your responses to clay posts closely, you’ll see where It really comes from.

C’mon, man. It’s 3 o’clock on a Monday and I’ve been hammered with “figure it out” issues all day at work.

Spell it out for me.

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Yet at the same time you’re saying it’s going to die because you don’t like the game?

Seriously, man.

Think before you type.

No, no, no. I’m not saying it’s gonna die because its a bad game, I’m saying that history repeats itself and, as such, whether this game is GW2 or any other new MMO on the market, it has a very low chance of success.

SWOTR was the fastest selling MMO of all time, quicker to 2M sales than GW2. Although, GW2 can be debated as quickest because of getting to 3M, SWOTR is still dead. And that means, the same can happen to GW2.

I don’t think it is hard to argue that GW2 was released in a beta state. Look at many of the games that were released in that state. Dead.

Come to think of it, there aren’t really that many “healthy” games still out there.

So, I think it is silly to assume that an MMO is going to be successful and be around for years with a healthy population simply because people like it. Lots of people liked the the same MMO’s that are now dead.

And, here is the worst part. I think many many many people can agree that one of the best parts of GW2 are the DE’s. They are one of the best parts of the game. However, if the population does start to fall, and these DE’s are less populated, what happens then? I think we can logically assume there is a possibility that it deters other people from playing as well.

I honestly don’t think there is anything GW2 that is so revolutionary and groundbreaking that it would keep people to stay for longer than the normal playing time of an MMO – which is around a year. History is what tells us that this is the norm, and anything else would be exceptional. Giving the reason for it being exceptional as, “my friends and I really like to play it” is just a really really bad argument as to why it will stick.

I see what you’re saying. Don’t agree with it, but I see.

Time will tell.

codpin.6542:

On the other hand, in gw2, you can evade and mitigate almost anything is thrown at you.

As long as you can see it…and when you’re melee, you can’t.

Which is why all the melee class switch to ranged weapons for most fights.

And nobody seems to think there’s anything wrong with that, which amazes me. As a Guardian walking around with a scepter and playing tennis in a dungeon while tumbling around like an Olympic gymnast in plate armor is ridiculous to me.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

Guild Wars II has been out for six months. The devs are still learning how to optimize the gameplay experience for most people.

Some games have been out for many years, and have had a lot of changes that made the gameplay experience worse, but over time those changes were reverted, even improved in some cases. GWII is no different. The devs will learn more and more about what works for the game and what doesn’t work for the game. You just need to give them time.

Why does anyone NEED to give the devs time to polish an unpolished game?

What happened to the YEARS of experience they had with GW1, which did break the mold, that they threw out the window?

I honestly don’t see this game surviving past the next couple of good MMO releases.

Well that’s a relief to me, because I’ve yet to see a good MMO release. Have fun waiting for one.

I saw one, it was called Guild Wars 1. But, I guess that wasn’t a real MMO. You’re right though, I haven’t seen a good MMO release, including this one. I guess GW2 will end up like all the rest.

You weren’t seriously hoping that GW2 is gonna survive by some miracle where other MMO’s couldn’t right?

Guild Wars 2 will not only survive, it will thrive. Maybe without you and players like you, but there are still plenty of players like me and the people I play with. Lots and lots of people don’t like this game. Lots and lots of people do like this game. You can say the same about WoW, which is undoubtedly successful. Lots of people hate Wow, but it’s irrelevant, because lots of people play it. The same is true of Guild Wars 2.

And it doesn’t need ten million people to be successful. So this game won’t go the way most games have gone. Rift is still around and doing fine.

The problems that many games have had on launch, for the most part, aren’t part of Guild Wars 2’s problems. Two years from now, you’ll still be saying this game won’t survive, but it will probably have a higher population than it does now.

Wow, your points are brilliant and moving. With such a strong argument, who can deny that you are correct? The one that got me the most was when you said you and your friends will keep playing it for a long time. That was when I knew I lost the argument.

One a less sarcastic note, you’ve never been a good history student eh?

Sarcasm doesn’t win arguments. It shows that the perpetrator of sarcasm has run out of legitimate points.

You say you guess Guild Wars 2 will end up like all the rest. It’s a bad guess. You have nothing to base it on but your theory that other people want what you want. And some do. And some don’t. So the question becomes, are there enough players like me to support this game and make it successful. I suspect that there is.

I don’t really have to be eloquent. Time will tell. In two years time, come around and see if Guild Wars 2 is dead.

There is no way to win this argument until we see what happens. Although, history and logic is on my side.

I was just lolling at your logic that because you and your friends like the game, it won’t die. You do know that there are a lot of dead games people are still playing right?

Yet at the same time you’re saying it’s going to die because you don’t like the game?

Seriously, man.

Think before you type.

Poplolita.2638:

<.< …
>.>…

clay and shootsfoot, when are you going to marry?

No clue what you meant by that, but if it was an attempt at an insult, well…didn’t work.

Where I think dungeons fail is when a strategy to get past halls/areas filled with trash mobs with champion level health/power is to run past them and hope for the best.

Astralporing.1957:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Really?

So if my wife goes out and cleans out our checking account by buying ridiculous amounts of things while I’m off at work I can have her prosecuted?

Don’t think so:

“You can have a joint account with anyone in the world, but once we’re jointly on that bank account, once we sign the papers, both of us have 100 percent rights to that account,” says Sandra M. Radna, a family attorney with Radna & Androsiglio in New York.

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/savings/risks-of-joint-bank-accounts-1.aspx

Like I said before, it’s beneath contempt, but it’s 100% legal.

Except it is not a joint bank account. It’s more like letting your friends use your storage shed to store their stuff in. If one of them takes stuff from another, it is still stealing, even though both had equal access to the storage space.
You need to specifically cede or share your rights to an object for it to not be stealing (marriage contracts and joint bank accounts are a form of such right sharing. Guild bank tab is not – unless your guild specifically allows its members to “take all they want” of course).

Number one, it’s not a storage shed, because not a single item in those bank tabs shows who owns it. It is, indeed, an account. An account everybody in the guild has access to unless restrictions are placed on that tab. By definition, that is a “joint account.”

Number two, when you deposit something into the guild bank account, you are relinquishing ownership of it, as there are no labels of what is owned by whom in the bank. Not a single person has to ask you if they can take it out, even though you put it in there. This is not personal storage space for you like a shed is. When you put something in there you are inviting whomever needs it to take it as that is the entire point of a guild bank.

It isnt’ just extra bank space where you can expect to store your things and not have people take it. To think otherwise is an indication of not understanding the point of a guild bank.

You seem to have contradicted yourself in consecutive posts.

I’m gonna go with the obvious and say “level to 80?”

thisolderhead.5127:

FateZero.8536:

Any right minded human with integrity and upholds their moral values to a certain extent would know that it is not the right thing to do even if you’re given the right to do it. The argument here is to what extent would you go to for your personal gains? Does that include throwing away your moral values and humanity?

Moral implies truth – we are talking about the name of a made up group, in a game, set in an imaginary fantasy land, and the seizure of its property…

Its a stretch to say there is an ethical question to be answered, definately not moral.

It’s not a stretch at all.