In my tests i couldn’t get any uptime with chilled in gameplay, no theorycrafting here.
In my tests in pvp it was extremely easy to maintain extremely high chill uptime. I dont understand you saying there is a lack of chill. You can have 6~12+ ways of applying chill in any single reaper build.
Forgetting Executioner’s Scythe? We have a buttload of Chill in Reaper’s Shroud thanks to that ice field and finishers. It’s very, very easy as a Reaper to have high Chill uptime.
Not to mention because of a minor trait staff #5 and RS#3.b also do aoe chill.
…… however I don’t really see it opening up that many possibilities …..
Completely disagree. It allows you to apply extra pressure/be more deffensive when entering or exiting shroud dependent on what you take sigil wise. Something we have never had solely from that one act.
The other thing is does is remove the need to double up on on swap sigils just to get the effect eevrytime you swap. This means you can technically take 4 different swap sigils not only that but still use the ones you want easily.
Quick example is on GS/Staff you can have int/hydro on gs and energy/[other swap sigil] on staff. So you can be offensive and proc crits and chill when using GS and RS with that weapon but defensive when using staff by having more dodges. For current standard power can take fire and air on one weapon set and then energy/something else on the other meaning you still benefit from the weapon swap sigils even without having to swap weapons. Two examples but you see what i mean and should allow more interesting play.
Any word on the sigil procc when entering/leaving reaper shroud being a thing? This was present in the last BW and I thought it was a bug and reported it, however I see no fix and some people are aknowledging it in this thread. I think this shouldn’t be a mechanic and have reaper shroud function just like normal death shroud, but ultimately I’m just looking to know what’s the intended functionality.
DS was originally a downed state i believe and has been retro fitted to work the way it does hence its code being spaghetti. It uses your equip weapons damage for the damage its skills does hence why no weapon swap. This meant though that shroud preforms differently dependent on what you have on at the time.
Reapers shroud though works the way it does because it uses a normalized weapon for its damage, 2h hammer, and its based of your main hand weapons rarity. So regardless of what set up you have outside of shroud inside it everything is always consistent. Because the hammer is a different weapon type it counts as a weapon swap when you enter or exit shroud.
Its similar to how Revs have theirs on weapon and legend swap. NO idea why you wouldnt want this as a consistent mechanic across the board because it actually opens up so many options in sigil choice and usage.
either way one or the other is going to get “fixed”
Changes to chilling force mean you can take str runes and str/battle sigils and still maintain a lot of might without the spite line. So this opens up a few more build options. All these changes are perfect!
@Robert Gee
Do you know if there are any plans to have DeathShroud function like ReapersShroud in regards to weapon swapping sigils?
This element to RS was something i felt added a nice layer to it as well as made some sigil choices more useful. Would be something i think DS would benefit from. Not only that but if it was normalised in the weapon it used ( think RS uses hammer?? ) then there wouldnt be any inconsistencies in DS with regards to damage based on weapon type.
While might can be kept up without Spite, we’d lose the extremely powerful Close To Death, which gives us a 20% bonus damage when we want it most, during our gravedigger tornado spam.
Its already not taken in a few pvp builds in which i was referring to. Because you can drop spite due to might still being relatively accessible you can pick up things like curses or blood magic hence more build options to explore.
Changes to chilling force mean you can take str runes and str/battle sigils and still maintain a lot of might without the spite line. So this opens up a few more build options. All these changes are perfect!
@Robert Gee
Do you know if there are any plans to have DeathShroud function like ReapersShroud in regards to weapon swapping sigils?
This element to RS was something i felt added a nice layer to it as well as made some sigil choices more useful. Would be something i think DS would benefit from. Not only that but if it was normalised in the weapon it used ( think RS uses hammer?? ) then there wouldnt be any inconsistencies in DS with regards to damage based on weapon type.
For generic condition removal, the most recently applied condition or conditions will be removed first.
Its only boon and condition conversion that is random as of June 23rd patch
Boon to condition conversion and condition to boon conversion has been standardized and is functionality changed. Skills that convert boons and conditions now randomly select from all boons and conditions on the target.
Thing is might is universal for all builds because it increases all types of damage. A % damage modifier would only be useful to any build that has power damage. It would remove incentive for condi builds to pick the line.
Reaper really is fine. Just the unintended behavior with inanimate objects needs to be fixed.
The reason its so tanky is because necro lacks active defense and mobility. They have no option but to soak any and all damage coming their way. If you made it less tanky you would have to increase its active defense and mobility, both things im sure all necro would be happy with.
Also you wont every get 100% – 0% by a reaper more around the below 50% to -0% but then again so many other classes can do the same.
The " I cant beat it so its grossly over powered" notion is what im feeling here.
Are you serious? Reaper Shroud damage is worse than our normal weapons. Greatsword damage is not garbage. So you use the greatsword unless you need to turtle in reaper shroud to wait for a heal to not die.
Reaper Shroud is kinda bad in PvE.
I’m not talking about numbers, but rather about functionality. We don’t seem to get anything from Reaper’ Shroud that we don’t get from Greatsword and vice versa; this means that one will always be fundamentally worse than the other. If the Greatsword is worse, then it’s not worth using. If RS is worse, then it’s only worth using because we’re stuck with it.
The idea is that since Reaper’s Shroud is a resource that needs to be earned, it should deal more damage and greatsword is what you use when you are out of life force. Think of it as a super mode in RPG, you fight normally and charge up, when you have enough resource then you use it in a burst to deal increased damage. Then when the mode is over, you have to earn it again to get the damage boost back. That should be the original intention and thus not really redundant.
I disagree with this analogy because of how quick you can generate lf and how long you can stay shrouded. Super states only last a short while and have long cooldowns. If shroud had a set, low duration and a long cooldown then that would be fine and it could do more damage that anything else we have. This is not the case. Only changes it needs is #2 fixed to not rubber band and be smooth, #4 and #5 to do a tad more damage and that should be it IMHO.
It’s a 10 second cooldown and I don’t know in what current PvE or PvP/WvW encounter you will be able to camp it.
Nobody’s asking for a Lich or Rampage on a 10 second cooldown, just that it not be a DPS loss to normal weapons you can use all the time without restrictions.
(With the super state analogy……10s ist long at all. Super states have long cooldowns.)
But thats the entire point a few people have made. The first one is that its not much of a dps loss if at all situation dependent , secondly that dps isnt everything and shroud offers stuff normal weapons cant do; it has a lot of utility and can be traited for more and allows you not to take true damage while still dishing quite a lot out.
If it has similar dps yet more utility then what would be the point in normal weapons?
Its probably going to be easier to agree to disagree with you.
Are you serious? Reaper Shroud damage is worse than our normal weapons. Greatsword damage is not garbage. So you use the greatsword unless you need to turtle in reaper shroud to wait for a heal to not die.
Reaper Shroud is kinda bad in PvE.
I’m not talking about numbers, but rather about functionality. We don’t seem to get anything from Reaper’ Shroud that we don’t get from Greatsword and vice versa; this means that one will always be fundamentally worse than the other. If the Greatsword is worse, then it’s not worth using. If RS is worse, then it’s only worth using because we’re stuck with it.
The idea is that since Reaper’s Shroud is a resource that needs to be earned, it should deal more damage and greatsword is what you use when you are out of life force. Think of it as a super mode in RPG, you fight normally and charge up, when you have enough resource then you use it in a burst to deal increased damage. Then when the mode is over, you have to earn it again to get the damage boost back. That should be the original intention and thus not really redundant.
I disagree with this analogy because of how quick you can generate lf and how long you can stay shrouded. Super states only last a short while and have long cooldowns. If shroud had a set, low duration and a long cooldown then that would be fine and it could do more damage that anything else we have. This is not the case. Only changes it needs is #2 fixed to not rubber band and be smooth, #4 and #5 to do a tad more damage and that should be it IMHO.
Only Khylo and Champion’s Dusk have them all over. Skyhammer has some, but it’s not played that often. Foefire has the lord gates, but you have to be near them to abuse it.
On sky hammer point A and C both have “something” in the middle that you can gain lf from by auto attacking but it drops you into combat, also some things around point B but they are harder to hit and has to be done with locust swarm.
they keep attacking when necro have spectral armor up and things like that.
This is very underestimated. If you see a necro pop that before entering shroud, if you engage in combat they will actually come out with more lf than they had when they entered originally.
I went with this in the end which worked well for me. Tried the build you posted yesterday and it was good but i still wasnt a fan. Felt better with soldiers and GS.
After Bhwab said something about shouts i tried this one and it was also very fun to play.
Both builds are very tanky as well so no porblems with that. Especially in team fights because of low shout cooldowns or vs mesmers.
About the high damage comments on tanky soliders reapers they dont do that much damage. It seems higher than it should because people tend to have this habit of ignoring vulnerability as a condition to cleanse. Combined with Close to death (20% <50%hp trait) it can mean taking an extra 50% damage when blow 50%hp.
The real difference is in solo ability, high toughness mobs/ protection granting mobs, and the encounter itself. It is far more self sufficient due to being able to grant might, vuln and burn. Also any encounter where mobs will either remove/transfer debuffs, remove boons etc etc, RS would come out on top because of what it can be traited to do. Not only that but your true hp is protected while you are at it, something i feel is overlooked alot.
This is an unfair thing to point out because it only describes potential and it also costs traits/specialisations which have their own (opportunity) cost.
You are going to take just the one spec and compare GS auto to RS auto because you have two other specs. If you are going to build around shroud you will take SR because thats the shroud modding line hence why its used in the comparison.
No point to compare this let alone anything in a vacuum because thats the most unrealistic situation there is.
The problem with that reasning is that by doing this that RS #1 will be only viable in a spite/soulreaping/reaper spec with dhuumfire and unyealding. Don’t ever think to take death magic or blood magic or using FitG because suddenly your RS#1 will lose those traits that made it balanced/competive. Skills have to be able to stand on their own especially class mechanic skills.
Its because for now they are the best lines we have for PvE, for both condi and power builds. Even as condi you may drop spite for curses some some of the stuff in there and rely on others for might and vuln. FitG isnt a choice as a reaper because of RS#3 as well and lower cooldown stunbreak on the shout.
Either way I disagree with Sigmoid in perspective. Reaper Shroud should be an undisputed upgrade in DPS. It is accessed by a resource you NEED TO BUILD UP, and it’s your class mechanic.
I don’t recall warrior burst skills nerfing their DPS nor any class except the mesmer’s shatter, which people already complain about in PvE.
Why should our class mechanic be any different? There should be a reward to building life force other than “go in this form to not die”.
I would say because being able to do comparable damage while having more utility on the ability ( might , vuln, burn ) while not taking any true damage is why. The damage really isnt that much lower but the utility is much higher.
Again i would disagree with comparing class mechanics like that. Also DS auto was lower dps than fighting outside of it already. RS really isnt different in that regard.
Guess we have differing opinions but such is life More opinions is better for rounded feedback as it is.
The real difference is in solo ability, high toughness mobs/ protection granting mobs, and the encounter itself. It is far more self sufficient due to being able to grant might, vuln and burn. Also any encounter where mobs will either remove/transfer debuffs, remove boons etc etc, RS would come out on top because of what it can be traited to do. Not only that but your true hp is protected while you are at it, something i feel is overlooked alot.
This is an unfair thing to point out because it only describes potential and it also costs traits/specialisations which have their own (opportunity) cost.
No point to compare this let alone anything in a vacuum because thats the most unrealistic situation there is. The comparison may be “unfair” but its more realistic.
The point of reaper is that the more people in the fight the better they are supposed to be. It does perfectly fine at that at the moment. The only problem with blighters boon at the moment is the healing portion is to high.
The trait is the direct opposite of altruistic healing but the value is twice as high. Sure this is balanced in a vacuum because of necros lack of self buffing, sure there is spite but that isnt huge and outside that there is nothing.
What needs to happen is the trait needs the healing portion lowered. If you guys actually played necro you would understand that giving this trait an ICD would make it completely useless and it would be the same as putting one of altruistic healing, signet of restoration etc etc.
Problem about comparing it to altruistic healing is that a single guard can only output so many boons in a given period of time, and they are all related to one’s own cooldowns, blighters boon has no personal limitations or upkeep. But, yes, you are right that the healing number is twice that of altruistic healing and that may be the problem.
It doesnt have a personal limitation but it needs you to be in a fight with several targets ( it isnt so strong on its own ) and allies that grant loads of boons. If the healing number was lowered a bit then i feel it would be better.
Currently, GS is used for AoE LF and Gravedigger for the 50% mark. Gravedigger alone makes it fantastic, and will make it meta for pve easy. It also offers a nice built in blind with Nightfall which is very awesome (For 50 fractals that’s very nice)
RS is starting to come together, I still think It needs a buff but It’s getting close. Matched with Dhuumfire/Reaper’s Onslaught the damage is pretty nice. You also can maintain 25 stacks of vuln in reapers shroud.
To wrap this up, DO NOT use GS auto for most of anything besides gaining LF in AoE fights. It’s melee is just too slow to beat out RS auto, It has better damage plain and simple.
GS auto outDPS’ses reaper auto. It’s just harder to land in pvp and with CC heavy mobs.
If you’re using reaper shroud for DPS, you’re gimping your DPS.
Have you done proper testing to back this up?
There is no need because mathematically its true that i you will do more damage with GS auto than with RS auto. The difference isnt huge. Infact its quite small if you take dhuumfire even without condi damage.
The real difference is in solo ability, high toughness mobs/ protection granting mobs, and the encounter itself. It is far more self sufficient due to being able to grant might, vuln and burn. Also any encounter where mobs will either remove/transfer debuffs, remove boons etc etc, RS would come out on top because of what it can be traited to do. Not only that but your true hp is protected while you are at it, something i feel is overlooked alot.
I will state this first before Zenith says “high end” blagh, “solo garbage blagh”, “migh and vuln redundant” blagh that in the current set of pve encounters GS will always do better because of their lazy and bad design. We have no idea what the new things in high end pve will require but we do know mobs will have better stats that scale and mechanics that may make it better to use RS rather than just auto with GS.
The point of reaper is that the more people in the fight the better they are supposed to be. It does perfectly fine at that at the moment. The only problem with blighters boon at the moment is the healing portion is to high.
The trait is the direct opposite of altruistic healing but the value is twice as high. Sure this is balanced in a vacuum because of necros lack of self buffing, sure there is spite but that isnt huge and outside that there is nothing.
What needs to happen is the trait needs the healing portion lowered. If you guys actually played necro you would understand that giving this trait an ICD would make it completely useless and it would be the same as putting one of altruistic healing, signet of restoration etc etc.
Both ride the lightning and rush take 2s to travel 1200 units so its 600 units a second same as charge. The skills “firey GS” type would also have to be changed to just damage on the final blast.
I feel its fine as it is it just needs to not rubber band when you land.
Actually altruistic healing is quite limited since it’s procc’d by healing others. So the icd is effectively the cd of your shouts.
So that’s not a valid argument.
Indeed, reapers just spam their healing on every swing of their weapon, giving them a lot of sustain. Way more than they should have, if you ask me.
Altruistic healing : Applying a boon to allies heal you
notes
Triggers healing for every boon applied.
Applying area-of-effect boons will trigger healing for each ally affected (including yourself) and skills that apply boons repeatedly over time, such as symbols, will trigger healing with each pulse.
Skills that apply multiple stacks of might will trigger healing for each stack.
Blighters Boon
Gain life force when you gain a boon. If you are in reaper’s shroud, gain health instead.
==notes=
Triggers for every boon you gain. Including those from yourself.
Skills that apply multiple stacks will trigger the effect for each stack.
Also necro is the class that by design should have the st attrition. Its supposed to be tanky. This is one of the traits that perpetuates that design.
TL;DR
one heal when you apply boon to others , the other heals when boons are applied to you. How are they not opposites? Necro by design is tanky this fits
Probably because as far as the game is concerned Reaper’s Shroud is a hammer (you get hammer kill achievements for reaper shroud kills), hence weapon swap, whereas Death Shroud’s old spaghetti code originated as a downed state.
This and its also based of item rarity. Just looked and a exotic dagger and exotic GS have the same tooltips for damage while in shroud.
That is the case only for wr and ele , and hard stun effects which make no difference to me since if you are interuppted by anything for a second you are simply interuppted end of story.
Yes you are right all in all there are more melee CC than range but i would say it 60% :40% in for meele.
I also editied my post saying if you are pure melee and have no ranged pressure, because of the few ranged interrupts there are you wont get in close to do any damage without being controlled and kitted more efficiently so again makes sense as a more melee orientated spec that it has far greater access to stability.
Foot in the grave still needs a buff though because its weak and still feels like its designed with the old stability/boon duration from traits system in mind. It needs more stacks and a longer duration. It should have the same duration as Furious demise fury at 5 seconds.
What does ranege have to do with stability pls explain?
Ranager can knock youback form range mesmer can interupt from range theif can interupt from range,even necro can fear from range , engi can 2,and you can them .
So why would a range class need less stability than one going melee?
Because a larger majority of control abilities are less than 600 range or melee range. Also because of the few that are ranged, you still need stability to be able to get into melee combat so you can do damage instead of being CC’d at range for a while. You can go through the list of control effects! to see what i mean.
Thats my opinion and reasoning behind why RS and reaper has more stability access than necro. Also part of the “unstoppable movie monster” theme they have going.
Foot in the grave needs to be longer and more stacks but im not bothered by this difference because even with its leap RS has no ranged pressure at all unlike death shroud. Rs is pure meleeis it makes sense that it would need greater access to stability. Ds has a lot of range so its a trade of in a sense.
I tried the build with soliders and it seemed more fun to play with.
I hate the lack of crit chance and ferocity with soldier. The healing power is okay but I really wish I could replace condition damage for any other stat. I’m starting to think condition damage wasn’t intended for necro.
Average damage is higher really because of the huge difference in power. Only reason you would need it if for procing things that are on crit like the signet trait but with enough conditions and fury you have no problems doing so because of flat % crit chance increases.
Isn’t cele signet necro supposed to be good in spvp?
Only because there are so many boons and only really a major counter to cele ele, besides that it isnt super stellar, because as many have said, we lack reliable burn access. This may change with reaper but for now..
Yeah, if the frontline of the opposing zerg doesn’t play guardian/warrior pinball with your reaper shroud while you’re trying to go through the autoattacks =/
With the nerfed Infusing Terror, this seems to be the case.
Doing WvW last beta and watching others videos of it, from my experience , that isnt the case and its quite easy to do with the right people and the right approach. Dont be such a pessimist
There should also be some good changes for us and some choices to make build wise on what it is we really want to be picking up as a reaper so should be more fun next beta.
Confusion would be better if mobs used more abilities in a rapid manner. Until they do it wont be useful in pve but in pvp its a very useful condition, especially now it has its normal dot with it as well.
For PVE, the answer is always going to be zerker. However, there is a decent build in spite/soul reaping/reaper that can make good use of valkyrie. So long as you have the vulnerability to sustain it, which bitter chill and unyielding blast bring in spades.
This depends on how pve changes. Going to assume not all the new content and mobs will be so easy that you can zerk gear everything and some other stats may be needed.
Easyest duel for thief right now is necro there is no necro skill that has lower cast time than 2/4sec ,most of them are 3/4.
Shroud is realy delight for a thief 2 interupt ,only fear skill 3 has no cast time,if i want to kill necro with thief with patince and time i will most of the time , just by timing properly d/p 4 – steal and basilisc.( i still prefer to avoid it 1v1 due to huge health pool and time necesery to do it)
3 new dazes with added dmg,omg thats gona hurt:),if succesfull cd increase 10sec,that is death shroud shutdown ,lol
With dardevil there is also an option to have best regen heal of all classes now, just by going acrobatics for assasin reward wich will give you about 500 heal on s/d 3 and add 450 per evade that is almost 1k heal ,prety spamable also
Mabe we will final see some thief bunker builds worth playing,and im happy about that:)
necros also get reapers shroud and better access to stability so until friday when we can actually test how strong the new reaper and daredevil will be in combat against each other we should put the “;)” and “lol” aside.
Why toughness?
life force pool is 80% of health pool ( or 70 without soul reaping). So taking vitality might be better damage wise… You might take more damage, but you also have more death shroud to take that damage. skills that generate lf also generate a percentage, so more life force pool = more life force gain.
Basicly:
toughness = take less damage, easyer to heal, normal life force gains.
vitality = take the same damage but on a bigger total pool, harder to heal up fully, but you also gain a lot more life force, since 80% of 30k is a TON more then 80% of 18k…
I’d think that if you know the high damage boss phases and can go reaper shroud on those, then the vitality increase might be better, by a lot.
So basicly, take chest and bottom berserker (or another one you already have,to save you some money) to get to 30% crit chance, and let fury and decimate defences bring you up to par with a full berserker build. then stack p on valkyrie
This makes you equal to a full berserker reaper, but with 23k health and 18.5k Life force instead of 19k health and 15k life force, which let’s you dps in ds a bit longer.
or am i looking at this the wrong way?
depends on game mode as well as how hard mobs are to deal with in the new maps.
Which assumes you can even complete the auto chain on players successfully. The warrior mainhand axe is also amazing when you pull off the atutoattack chain, but it’s not used for the very reason that landing the full hits is easier said than done in a zergball of CC barrage which infusing terror won’t really mitigate.
Warrior mainhand axe is a bad comparison. Its auto attack chain is to long and its cone of attack to narrow to compare to RS auto.
Its relatively easy to complete the auto attack of RS because of how fast it is and how much range it has. This goes for any and all game modes.
Well i hope the Buff to RS AA LF Gen is enough then cause tho I didnt do testing to see exactly how it depleted and i take your guys word for it. It felt much squisher in RS compared to DS even in1v1 situations. At first I tought it was frustration from poor GS lF-Gain but at the end of BWE I felt the drain in RS was to fast….
Tho I guess DS#4 and the fact that DS is range and RS is Melee is key factor here, will test and try more come BWE2, also made Ascended Valkyrie to boost my LF-Pool abit.
The difference is DS #4 with the gluttony passive gives 30% LF if you hit 5 targets or 6% per person.
RS auto attack would only give 6% per complete chain on 5 targets or 1% per target while being in melee so you would feel the effect of damage more thus it feeling like it doesnt last as long. With the change the full auto chain should give 9% at 5 targets with gluttony or 1.8% per target. After your 3rd auto chain, 7.5~6.5s into the fight you would have gained more lf from RS auto.
Taken with chilling force you can extend your shroud duration to extreme lengths under the right conditions. Sitting at a max of 19% per auto chain.
More opinions is better for rounded feedback as it is.