Guild Wars 2

Chicago Jack.5647:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The problem is, how can you reward tactical use of the skill without alienating low-skilled players? Not everyone can be as quick as Jumper at interrupting skills, I know I’m not.

I never understand this mentality. I can only imagine what would happen if the SC series took this approach to basic gameplay.

I don’t know what to tell you other than be a better player?

Being a better player is not the only issue, it’s the window for which you can interrupt a skill. Anet uses Daze so that even if your timing is off, you still effectively interrupted a skill. Without the Daze condition, you will have to time Headshot precisely in order to interrupt a skill and we all have experienced that latency plays a big part on landing a well place interrupt. So in order to kill two birds (low-skilled players and latency issue), Anet uses the Daze condition.

This is not just a mindset, it’s also a design considerations.

For example, if you ever played Magic: the Gathering, even though I have an instant card that can interrupt a spell, I can take my time to consider all my options which is proof that interrupts doesn’t have to require a quick reflexes.

In GW1, Choking Gas also serves as an interrupt that doesn’t require quick reflexes or for you to be a better player.

In my experience;
25/30/15/0/0 – D/x
25/30/0/15/0 – S/x
25/30/0/0/15 – P/P

But I think that most universal one, that is usable with any weapon set, is:
25/30/0/15/0

Cynz.9437:

Big Tower.5423:

Travlane.5948:

Big Tower.5423:

Jumper.9482:

fodem.2713:

Auto attack only

Heavy armor > medium > light

Warrior is heavy, so it’s perfectly normal…

Now…. About skills…. No skill in the game could have more dmg than a backstab….

Thief is actually on the lower-end of the burst spectrum.

Well Jumper… Yes thats an fact for SPVP But soon as you think WvWvW It becomes competly diffrent a 0 30 30 10 0 spec can do Cloak->backstab->HS burst if he got bloodlust and guardkiller. and his foe is downed :P so they actually got very high burst for wvwvw together with quite good survablity. But yes for spvp they are very low on almost everything. XD

You probably think CND BS HS is really high dps right? its actually really low. what it IS though…..is high Dmg per hit but NOT high DPS.

Ok so lets look at why ok?

CnD- roughly 50% success rate
BS – Roughly 50% success rate
HS- roughly 60% success rate

between blinds – blocks – aegis – invuln – NPC mobs – dodges – etc etc these skills miss as much as they hit, even for experienced players i wouldnt give them much more that +10% average (yes there are some fights that are higher but OVERALL its bout here)

Now lets look at other factors that mitigate our DPS. or burst is ALL withing 130 range which means we need to be kitten ed close to lay it out. Not only that its all .5 second or more activation times plus another .5 to recast so about 1 second MINIMUM between hits at best scenario….. very much unlike whirl attack or 100 blades etc.

What else to mention….oh yeah the obvious…. STEALTH! all that time in stealth wandering around for positioning and setting up for that all too famous backstab. then theres the times we enter stealth and dont get the right positioning and have to reenter stealth to try again.

See….thething is…for thief to get good DPS or even good survivability….it has to be connected to “circumstantial” requisites and factors. Yes other classes have some too but none as specific as ours and also as double edged (taking damage in stealth but dealing 0 back). our overall DPS is very low compared to most classes. and our burst is too….too much prereq for it to be solid burst.

These precents are competly wrong and out of the blue you wont see it comin before you’re dead ever heard of precast + steal? 50 % 40 % 60 &%? id rather say somthing like 95 % by a good player. And when it comes for substained dps AA fills that gap and makes D/D highest single target wep in the game.

btw STEAL, and that our damage is wrong is completly lack of knowledge dude we got HIGEHST single target damage in the game when buffed and we got very quick attacks in our burst so makes for good burst in wvwvw. around 1 second burst

the problem is you assume that that good player is fighting noobs, where good players in fact can completely shut down good thief…

That’s a load of cowpie. The only Thief getting “completely shutdown” is a bad Thief, not a good one.

also, as for dmg, warriors would like to talk to you
yes their high dmging abilities might be good telegraphed, but if they wasted it they still get to keep resources + CD is very low while for a thief if CnD for example missed, you lost 6 ini…. no gain back, nothing

Backstab would like to talk to you. Yes, their (thief) high damaging abilities (backstab) might be good telegraphed (stealth), but if they missed, they get to try again with zero resources cost + no CD…

eles are another example, they can burst someone down way faster than thieves actually

lol. Another cowpie. Please post an Elementalist build that “can burst someone down faster than thieves.”

if there would be way to make a chart with correlation of high risk and dmg, thieves would be really low on that chart due to way too high risk for decent dmg

The risk is significantly reduced when Thieves are played by good players. Unlike the other professions, good player or bad player, they are stuck in the same paradigm.

yes thief relies heavily on stealth and it is actually a bad thing, if stealth fails it is pretty much GG, where other classes still have multiple choices;

Oh please. Not every thief “relies heavily on stealth.” That’s so 2012. You need to get your Thieve-aptitude up to date.

if anet keeps nerfing stealth or any survivability thieves have, eventually thieves would have nothing to rely on

Good. Then the nerfing will end, right? Finally. When that day comes, we might see competent buffing.

Whether they buff or nerf P/P I will still use it because there’s no other ranged weapon alternative.

No! Shortbow sucks IMO. I hate that weapon with a passion.

Peow peow.2189:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Peow peow.2189:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Peow peow.2189:

imo the headshot skill is balanced atm, seeing as interrupts can work on almost anything. Any more of a daze or adding damage potential will just make it too cheesey

+

im guessing u havent tried perplexity and headshot in wvw?

He had a video using Perplex.

then lol wut at this suggestion

He’s trying to reward Thieves using Headshot as a tactical interrupt rather than using it as a lock down skill, but his suggestion did not consider other effects that can happen or how much work it will be for Anet.

I understand the goal, it’s just that it will require Anet to spend time on really fixing Thieves rather than finagling with the numbers that doesn’t really fix the problem.

true, however in comparison to some of our useless traits and skills like deathblossom, crippling dagger and pistol whip. You could say headshot is in a good place right now

I don’t have a problem with Headshot either because it has a lot of room for error, but I believe that Jumper’s suggestion has merit that good use of interrupt should be rewarded.

The problem is, how can you reward tactical use of the skill without alienating low-skilled players? Not everyone can be as quick as Jumper at interrupting skills, I know I’m not.

Excalibur.9748:

perplexity runes are OP becuz even auto attack can be interrupted which means basically everything and anything can be interrupted which means you can just spam it. Anyways, if AA wasn’t interruptible then perplexity wouldn’t be too OP

Well…technically GW2 doesn’t have an auto-attack per se, because you can change which skill you want to auto-use at any time — it doesn’t have to be Skill #1.

Peow peow.2189:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Peow peow.2189:

imo the headshot skill is balanced atm, seeing as interrupts can work on almost anything. Any more of a daze or adding damage potential will just make it too cheesey

+

im guessing u havent tried perplexity and headshot in wvw?

He had a video using Perplex.

then lol wut at this suggestion

He’s trying to reward Thieves using Headshot as a tactical interrupt rather than using it as a lock down skill, but his suggestion did not consider other effects that can happen or how much work it will be for Anet.

I understand the goal, it’s just that it will require Anet to spend time on really fixing Thieves rather than finagling with the numbers that doesn’t really fix the problem.

Peow peow.2189:

imo the headshot skill is balanced atm, seeing as interrupts can work on almost anything. Any more of a daze or adding damage potential will just make it too cheesey

+

im guessing u havent tried perplexity and headshot in wvw?

He had a video using Perplex.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emsnq8f5br4

Jumper.9482:

My suggestion? Increase the amount of time dazed to the original amount only when interrupting an enemy.

Unfortunately, Headshot skill doesn’t interrupt the skill, the condition Daze does.

So an “if…then” condition to whether the target is interrupted or not doesn’t happen until Daze is applied. How then can you satisfy an “if…then” condition to set the amount of time for Daze when Daze is already in effect?

Anet will have to add another effect for Headshot to check of interruption, then if interrupted by Headshot, apply Daze+1, if not, apply Daze-1.

Unless Anet added that interrupting effect besides Daze, I don’t think your suggestion will work.

Or add a fixed amount of damage

Again, the damage is applied before the interrupt ever happen. Unless Anet applies damage on hit, then apply damage after Daze, that’s not going to happen.

or confusion on interrupt.

Being interrupted means that your target is already suffering from Daze…then you want to add Confusion also?

Not sure if that will fly either.

This discourages the previous ‘411’ spam while still rewarding the player for properly using the skill.

You know that “discourage spam” means “high cost” right? Because that’s the easiest way for Anet to achieve that goal instead of spending time trying to update their algorithm.

I always go for either Elementalist or Necromancer because in a pandemonium, they are casting AoE far away from where they stand and they are almost always on cooldown — easy kills every time.

Cynz.9437:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cynz.9437:

omg that’s too epic

where do mesmers fit in there..<_<?

Glad you like it.

Mesmers are of the class Scholar. Just like the other scholars, they are focused on studying some part of the world. Elemetalist studies the elements (duh right?) and Necromancers studies the dead.

But what does Mesmer studies?

Mesmers are scholars studying people. People is not limited to humans. According to the Disney’s Pocahontas, “you think the only people who are people are the people who looks and think like you.” Mesmer obviously shares the same belief that people comes in different shape and form. This means that Mesmers studies all different kind of people in Tyria; from Humans, Charr, Sylvari, Skritts, Hyleks, etc., even the undeads of Orr.

So what do they get from studying the different people?

Mind control.

If you understand the people’s behavior, you get to control their minds. You can insert ideas that manipulates their abilities by either positive reinforcements to make people do better or take advantage of their fears to make them fail. What Mesmers found in their studies is that although people in Tyria are different, they all share a common fear — that is being outnumbered. Mesmers takes advantage of this fear by forming their magic to create illusions of themselves in battle.

While Elementalist and Necromancers can summon ugly minions, Mesmers only surrounds themselves with pretty people.

idk about pretty…i saw fat charr mesmer in tpvp the other day….
also i saw huge norn mesmer in fractals that was far from being pretty O_O

Eye of the beholder.

And I’m sure, their mother’s opinion trumps yours. lol :P

To me it’s about power and they are expensive.

The food buff is Spicy Butternut and they run between 30-50 silver a piece.
The Superior Sharpening Stone runs for 15-20 silver a piece.

However, you can make these yourself and probably save some money if you farm for the ingredients.

I used to have 20 of each and when they ran out, I never bothered restocking. I think the WvW Exp reward is better buff anyway because with nourishment, once you die, the buff is gone.

Qaelyn.7612:

Well I’ve certainly done a lot of dying.

I appreciate the advice and know it’s true in a general sense. I ask a lot about builds because this is difficult enough without adding poor build choices into the mix. I also don’t have unlimited funds to keep buying and salvaging gear.

I generally use the approach you mentioned in MMOs, but with thief I’ve been lagging so far behind in terms of both killing and surviving that I’ve felt I needed more help. It’s not from a lack of effort, and I really haven’t skipped the basics. I’m just.. not very good at it.

That’s why my suggestion is for you identify the play style that you’re good at by starting from the very beginning, just like singing. If a rapper gave you a lyrics that you need to sing at 100 words per second, or Celine Dion gave you the lyrics to “My heart will go on,” don’t you think that those songs maybe not your style? And if it is, don’t you think that it takes practice to perfect the song?

You may not be good at it now but given time even a seed will grow up to be a tree.

Cynz.9437:

omg that’s too epic

where do mesmers fit in there..<_<?

Glad you like it.

Mesmers are of the class Scholar. Just like the other scholars, they are focused on studying some part of the world. Elemetalist studies the elements (duh right?) and Necromancers studies the dead.

But what does Mesmer studies?

Mesmers are scholars studying people. People is not limited to humans. According to the Disney’s Pocahontas, “you think the only people who are people are the people who looks and think like you.” Mesmer obviously shares the same belief that people comes in different shape and form. This means that Mesmers studies all different kind of people in Tyria; from Humans, Charr, Sylvari, Skritts, Hyleks, etc., even the undeads of Orr.

So what do they get from studying the different people?

Mind control.

If you understand the people’s behavior, you get to control their minds. You can insert ideas that manipulates their abilities by either positive reinforcements to make people do better or take advantage of their fears to make them fail. What Mesmers found in their studies is that although people in Tyria are different, they all share a common fear — that is being outnumbered. Mesmers takes advantage of this fear by forming their magic to create illusions of themselves in battle.

While Elementalist and Necromancers can summon ugly minions, Mesmers only surrounds themselves with pretty people.

Qaelyn.7612:

Thanks, that’s useful stuff.

I don’t really have the skills yet for thief in PvP, was using it mostly to test builds I hope to use in WvW, and I get the caveats.

The problem for me with Yishis’s build is that, bluntly, I’m not good enough to make it work. I don’t have the reflexes and coordination, and don’t know enough about other characters’ strengths and weaknesses yet. I might try going back to the condition build, though I will need to get some better gear to make that work.

To be honest, when it comes to Thieves, you really ought to find your own build and simply use Yishi’s build as a reference.

When you take up a build, feel free to tweak it to make it work for you. For example, if your opponent is coming up too fast for you, you can pick up on Caltrops. You don’t have to be Condition Damage build to use it.

However, you need to understand the basic first and foremost.

To do this is to reset your traits and pick up a weapon set. Get familiar with every set then pick your favorite. Stick with that weapon set, meaning you have to live and die with that weapon set. Dying actually teach you a lot about the weapon set so do take mental notes, then you can make adjustments to minimize the chances of dying.

Once you get familiar with a weapon set, it’s time to pick some gears and review your mental notes. How did you die?

Taking too much damage? Then take more toughness.
Taking too much Condition Damage? Take more vitality.
Not dealing enough damage? Maybe some Power.

Afterwards, test drive your gears (remember, keep your traits at zero) and see if there’s some improvements in your survivability. Then pick your Runes and Sigils using your mental notes as reference on what your play style needs.

Only after all those that you should worry about your traits, utilities, and elite.

Sounds familiar?

Of course it is, that’s the method on learning the profession while leveling up. It is proven effective and important. If you skip all these, then you’ll really going to have a hard time finding your Thief’s identity.

You admit it yourself that you don’t have the reflexes and the coordination, that’s only true only because you skip on all the basics. In martial arts for example, the masters will never teach you combat techniques until to master the basics — for playing Thieves, it’s the same concept.

That’s just one of Gandalf’s fireworks.

lol @ Adventuring Burglar

EDIT: I just realize how true the LotR is, while the burglars went all stealth to destroy the Ring, the lame Warrior get to become king. >.<’

Imagi.4561:

I don’t know about anyone else, but I look up at the stars at night and wonder, why are we here? What is our purpose?

In all seriousness, what is the role of Thieves? “Jack of all trades” belongs to the Engineer; “highest damage output” is far easier done by other classes, like LH Eles and Warriors; “group utility” is served by Eles, Mesmers, and spirit Rangers. It’s a fun class and I enjoy it, but I feel largely ineffective in group dynamics.

It would be disingenuous of me to say the class is completely useless, or to ever claim that I intend to delete my Thief. But I’m not really sure if our status in the current game reflects what the class was meant to be.

I think the Thief has been failing to meet expectations since it’s institution in the game. It’s certainly failed many of mine.

Thief is classified as an Adventurer compare to Warrior and Guardian who are classified as Soldiers.

So what does an Adventurer do exactly?

Adventuring is daring the unknown and discovering new things. That’s why Engineer loves their tools and inventions; and Rangers loves their pets. Adventuring is also taking risk for a great reward and that’s why Thieves steals.

Typically when Thieves are caught, they face punishment and in some culture they are not only hit by a nerf bat, they also faced with a dismemberment — an act of making sure that the Thief will never steal again.

So how does that reflect the Thief in GW2?

Thieves in GW2 are risk takers. Players who plays Thief takes the risk of getting hit by a nerf bat because they are playing the profession really well — and Anet plays the barbaric culture of dismembering the Thief so that whenever we steal, we get cut into pieces because Anet wants to dismembered us from our ability to regain endurance.

So the Thieves in Tyria started to sign-up for military duty to become Soldiers and many have joined the ranks of Warriors and Guardians.

In Tyria, stealing and necromancy are dishonorable professions, thus they get hit with the bat more often that the “goody-two-shoes” professions.

Imagi.4561:

I see several comments here that say or imply that an extremely high crit chance isn’t especially valuable, but I have no idea where the benefits start to decrease.

I personally value Power over Precision meaning if I have to choose between the two, I’d pick Power. I’d also pick Vitality over Precision, Toughness over Precision. Basically, Precision is at the bottom priority for me.

However, I have a crazy friend who value Precision and been trying to get closer to 100% as possible because he relies on procs from Sigils (i.e. Flames Blast almost every 5 seconds or Life Steal almost every 2 seconds).

So the value of Crit Chance really depends on what you’re trying to accomplish or what you find to be fun.

Qaelyn.7612:

Thief seems to be one of the classes where player skill has the most effect. And I’m inexperienced and not super-fast. I don’t have a good handle on how to use the skills in the right combos at the right times, so I end up being fairly ineffective, and I die quickly.

It’s actually more deeper than that.

When playing a Thief, timing is everything because you don’t want to be wasting precious resources — initiatives and cooldowns will cost you a lot when you fail to manage them compare to other professions that only manages one resources instead of two.

You need to do some basic Math when playing a Thief. If you see a Warrior, how much damage do you think you can deal before your initiatives are tapped out? So you start with basic addition and subtraction trying to manage your initiatives. If you are using D/D, when you use CnD, how long will it take to get those initiatives back?

Once you wrapped your mind around those, then you can work on your play style then build your gears around it. Without the basic understanding on how Thieves works, being “super fast” can only mean that you are going to die fast because you are spending initiative faster than you are gaining it back.

Then you need to think about your exit strategy when your plan fails before you think about your engagement strategy. An example of an engagement combo, using D/D, I love opening with CnD->Steal->Backstab. Although this requires timing, you don’t have to be supper fast.

Anyone know if there are any good guides that include a build suitable for a newer player and also specific advice on how to use it? I don’t want to clone someone else’s build and playstyle entirely, but I need somewhere to start from or I’m just going to end up shelving this class.

Here’s a good place to start: Guide to Thief Guides

Main interest eventually will be WvW roaming. I’m tinkering in PvP since it’s easy to change things around without having to buy a lot of new gear. Mostly been focusing on a D+D/SB combo since I’m somewhat familiar with it. I’ve tried D+P/D+D and D+P/P+D but they seem to require even more skill and timing.

Keep in mind that some skills function very differently in the Mist. It’s a great place to plan your build, but not to flesh out your play style. WvW is very different mainly because of the stats on the gears. So plan out in the Mist, but practice in the Borderlands.

Thanks!

You are welcome, just ask away.

Zero Day.2594:

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s a slippery slope argument that is too far from what I’ve posted.

It is no such thing. You support a policy of no nerfs, only buffs. That logical result of that, no matter how long it takes to get there, is power creep. And making monsters get stronger to compensate, is just a nerf to players by another name.

Balance by buffing has been tried. It has failed. Nerfs are unpopular, but they are necessary.

Argument in the sense of it being a slippery slope, it is and it isn’t.

Only buffing… so let’s talk about just damage, and use simple numbers and a simple scenario.
Class A deals 100 damage.
Class B deals 50 damage.

This feels unbalanced because B doesn’t do the same amount of damage.

Class B now deals 100 damage.

For some odd reason Class A doesn’t deal as much damage as B. We can’t nerf B, so we can only buff A.

Class A now deals 125 damage.

Everyone is happy.

Class A is later buffed to do 200 damage.
Well now we’re at the start where A did twice what B did.

It can be done. Just we will see a constant inflation of numbers (eventually we will be doing 40k on normal auto attacks like in other games). To “nerf” one class in the case of only buffing, you buff other classes.

Exactly. Thank you.

IMO, there’s a lot more room for buffing, because you can only take away so much before the game becomes a joke.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s my point. You take something out of context believing that I am talking about “power creep” when I mentioned “buff.”

Buffs are how power creep happens. If you have a never-nerf policy, that’s the ultimate end result.

That’s a slippery slope argument that is too far from what I’ve posted.

While PvE mobs gets ridiculously stronger, we get nerfed.

Good policy (/sarcasm).

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You take something out of context […]

Your post is literally right above mine; nobody will be confused. I had a single point to make about one thing that you said, and did so. Power creep matters even in PvE.

That’s my point. You take something out of context believing that I am talking about “power creep” when I mentioned “buff.”

naphack.9346:

Maybe even make the thief able to hold up to 3 stolen items. Just making steal usable, while you have a stolen skill, would already make the skill so much more intuitive.

Really?

Consume Plasma + Throw Gunk + Whirling Axe

Now picture yourself being on the receiving end — still “intuitive?”

The Thief have not even used their initiative and you’re already at 50% health with a healthy stack of Confusion.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

In PvE’s point of view, no profession should get nerfed only buffed

Power creep is a thing. Otherwise we’d all have OHKO buttons on our bars, Teq would be easy, and the game would be perfect(ly boring).

You take something out of context just so you can say that even though it has nothing to do with what I posted?

I-lister.

What exactly is the point of this?

In PvE’s point of view, no profession should get nerfed only buffed, because it is less fun when your party struggles in an easy dungeon because ANET decided to nerf the profession to please the PvP. Any party composition should have equal shot at completing a dungeon at the same time a group of Warriors and Mesmers could. I’m tired of seeing profession getting nerfed and suffers for the rest of the game because they can’t get into a party or get into a party only to get kicked. Nerfing profession doesn’t make for a kind community, only a bunch of jerks.

I really hate that.

vincecontix.1264:

Most players die in around 20sec, its WvW terribad players everywhere actually that is what the majority of wvw is like.

Probably true in your World’s tier, but not in my World’s tier.

Sons.5493:

Zacchary.6183:

Sons.5493:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

D/D is the generic common weapon set for Thieves and this rune supports that set.

Specialized Thieves will not take this runes.

This doesn’t even make sense, try harder.

Yeah it does. This is best for condition builds (mainly d/d conditions +backstab) that also rely on on-crit effects. Otherwise you are wasting half of the set. And backstab is weak in a condition set.

Troll harder.

This makes even less sense tbh, D/D cond builds are so initiative hungry you can’t even cnd, 4% crt rate WONT change anything in a cond build whenre there’s stuff like undead or nightmare out there which is way better in ANY kind of cond build.

This runes doesn’t make sense amd you make even less.

Condition build is not a generic build, that would be the Specialized Thief I mentioned thus Rune of Thief is not needed.

Generic D/D benefits from this rune because the high Prec allows it to gain Init from auto-attack, the condition damage for Death Blossom, and the +10% dmg for backstab.

It’s a well rounded rune for generic D/D.

D/D is the generic common weapon set for Thieves and this rune supports that set.

Specialized Thieves will not take this runes.

Thief’s Experience
- You made us fragile like a woman on top of a building – we laugh
- Seeing that storm destroys everything of us – we laugh
- You drown us underwater, drop us from the sky – we laugh
- You burn down everything we have – we laugh
- You basically given us nothing but trash – we laugh
- Seeing more destruction of what we have left – we laugh
- We laugh even as time goes by

- We get nuked – we laugh
- Then you try to entice us with fine dining (with no food) – we laugh
- You place us on top of a cold mountain – we laugh
- Even putting us on the moon – we laugh

- Then there you go, riding on your skate and hit us with a nerf bat laughing — we’re not amused.

That’s just sad to watch. I like how you use the Ranger as your health battery. :P

Trash, destruction, being laughed at….yup.

DeceiverX.8361:

I honestly prefer this build for a high burst DD.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQJAoYlUmaPHcy5E+JFy2jhqCJKuCGl/ByS/AOB-jkyAY/hMSUEyoCgJPho0nGbVrIas6aMlrQtKOR27ioVLFQELjA-w

Stealing into Fury helps immensely, effectively raising your crit chance to 74% for what SHOULD be the duration of the fight. Imho, going above 80% is just kind of unnecessary. You can definitely mix in some assassin runes in place of berserker, however I prefer the damage boost versus the crit chance due to the fact D/D power shouldn’t be extending the fight into much beyond a few seconds from backstab and auto-attacking.

The reason I suggest this is because there’s not much purpose in going crit strikes unless you actually plan to do things with it. If you’re running condi/on-crit, then definitely look into the Trickery line.

I’d probably do something like this for a crit-based build with high toughness playing with condi.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAqaVlUmaPXey5E+5Ey2jK8n4JvHfFZZWaFwJA-j0CBYfJDLUQkoIZUFBiIAM/RILHSitaqIasKmYKYER1mbFRrWKgHFGB-w

Not super tanky, but you’d be better-off than most other builds and would easily stack up bleeds.

If you read what the OP is asking, you wouldn’t waste your time posting your off topic reply.

The OP stated: “Not too worried about actual damage output”

So please, stay on topic.

It’s not for Thieves, it’s for Warriors making them into juggernauts when they pop their Signet of Rage.

Don’t get your hopes up.

You should know by now that all buff is to favor Warriors and all nerf is to trash Thieves.

Grimwolf.7163:

Both P/D and P/P have something in common; they rely completely on a single skill other than Vital Shot for all damage (Sneak Attack spam, Unload spam).
The problem is that Vital Shot is unrivaled garbage, because it is SO… SLOW.
Just drastically speeding up Vital Shot would make a huge difference.

Unfortunately that would only drastically buff P/D since it can now effectively apply a large stack of bleed in and out of stealth — which P/P don’t really need.

Just like Ein’s suggestion, you are only focused on buffing P/D since speeding up Vital Shot will only buff P/D and will remain crap for P/P.

Body Shot is also still a bit sub-par… Conceptually the Immobilize is quite clever; it allows you to more easily land Cloak and Dagger for P/D or Unload for P/P

What are you talking about?

Body Shot is a waste of initiative for P/P. The duration of Vulnerability is never long enough and to stack them is to waste your initiative to never Unload again. I only ever use it for the immobilize (and only in case of emergency, like no dodge) and never for vulnerability.

both of which can be difficult to land, while also applying Vulnerability to boost the damage of said attacks. Very nice. Except that the cost is prohibitive for combining with other skills. Doing so will dry you out instantly, but the skill is pretty much only good when combined with said attacks. They need to shave an Initiative off it.

Exactly. The cost, the duration, the number of stacks, just don’t flow very well with P/P. Even if the cost is shaved, the transition from Body Shot to Unload is clunky due to pre-cast delays, casting time, and after-cast delays.

Body Shot applying 3s of Vulnerability is laughable and insulting.

It went from 3-stacks for 8s, to 5-stacks for 6s, and then 5-stacks for 3s.

Ridiculous. There’s nothing “very nice” about it. It’s horrible.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Step 1: Stop trying to make GW2 some eSports, just get over it.
Step 2: Stop balancing everything around tPvP and ruining PvE and Wv3
Step 3: Profit!

Simple. Direct to the point. I like it.

Travlane.5948:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t totally agree with the Dec 10 init change because I believe that it should scale based on how much init are missing, but I believe it’s a step in the right direction. And if Anet wants the init regen to be flat, then it should be around 1.25 init/s

that is somethign i have NOT thought about. i like that. under 4 init it should be 1.5 per sec. above 8 init it should be .75 per sec. at over 12 its .5 and under 2 its 2 per sec or somethign. thats not a bad idea! have you put it in the suggestions area?

No, but here’s the original post I made.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-Balance-The-Real-Story/first#post3158010

capmasterflash.5690:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It is “World” vs “World”, not roamer vs roamer. If you stay in a group, you get to accomplish more than just going off alone.

I think it’s fair to say that everyone enjoys different play styles and has a different idea of accomplishment.

In regards to the d/p nerf, I’m excited for it. Although that build is fun as hell, it’s super cheesy and I’ll be glad when there is one less thing for bads to complain about.

You can, definitely, but you cannot say that because your play style no longer work that it means that the Thief in other play style is in poor position.

Here’s a “rough” high passive crit-build using Assassin gears

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQJAoYEBnREbPAAAIKA-j0xAYuASEASkFRjtwVENW1CmelIq2nUEtaA-w

Note: Fragile

Volrath.1473:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jrunyon.3012:

Volrath.1473:

Passive Crit chance is caped at 70%

Source?

The wiki says differently.

He said “passive” means what the crit chance is at the load out without buffs from food or boons, for example.

However with the Assassin items, you can push that passive cap pass 70%.

exactly, the crit change you get from gear runes traits etc is caped at 70%, (I’ve read it somewhere on the early days of the game and since i play thief I never forgot about it but still a confirmation from a dev would be appreciated).

Meaning that if you go over 70% crit it wont matter since it will not pass 70%. It can go over 70% with boons/food.

Again I have no proof of this…

It can go to 100% with Hidden Killer, for example — but honestly, anything pass 30% crit chance is a waste of stat spot that can be used for Power and Crit-damage, or for Toughness and Vitality.

The trade off to get high passive crit chance is not acceptable to me so I don’t do it.

Asudementio.8526:

Change P #1 to apply 1 stack of 3s Vuln per shot

I’ve suggested skill #1 to stack vulnerability for P/P for a long time now, but Pistol #1 should stay as is for P/D. What Anet needs to do is to capitalize on the “dual-wield” mechanic and give P/P its unique skill #1, #2, #4, and #5 where #1 stacks vulnerability.

Excalibur.9748:

PvE – in a poor position, about to be nerfed again. can be decent for high level fractals though due to utility of black powder and access to group stealth for skipping mobs.

In general PvE, Thief is actually in good position, not sure why would you say that?

There might be some survivability issue post Dec 10, but I am very optimistic about the Initiative changes that normalizes the init-gain among all builds and not just for Crit builds.

WvW – in a poor position, about to be nerfed again. perma stealth is one of the better builds for roaming right now. about to be nerfed into uselessness though.

It is “World” vs “World”, not roamer vs roamer. If you stay in a group, you get to accomplish more than just going off alone.

Withdraw is Dodge roll then Heal, so having the rune triggers after the dodge is working as intended.

What needs to change is Withdraw, it needs to heal first then dodge roll — or just heal and dodge roll at the same time.

Jrunyon.3012:

Volrath.1473:

Passive Crit chance is caped at 70%

Source?

The wiki says differently.

He said “passive” means what the crit chance is at the load out without buffs from food or boons, for example.

However with the Assassin items, you can push that passive cap pass 70%.

Jae.5138:

What Riot did that helped them evolve into such a huge e-sport is that in addition to balancing, they recognized that sometimes some skill sets simply did not work for the game mechanics. It’s not uncommon for them to completely trash out the whole skill set for a champion if that’s what it takes to make it work.

You can’t even being to compare the two games because Riot still believe in the holy trinity and Anet do not. The type of team work that Riot’s game promotes is very different than the type of team work that Anet is trying to promote.

The major flaw in Riot’s game is when the there’s no tank or the tank failed on his build or the tank dies, the whole team falls apart. While in Anet’s team based game, there’s always a contingency plan.

I do I agree that some weapon sets needs to be scrapped and rebuilt from scratch (i.e. Thief’s P/P set), however comparing GW2 to LoL is an example of a bad comparison.

GameVeight.2745:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Yes I do. If I want to Fear twice in a row, I have to wait for F2 to get off cooldown, use it, steal a new Fear, then use the new Fear….then wait for both to get off cooldown.

If as I have suggested the F2 skills cooldown would be equal to but not linked to that of Steal than I don’t see how this is any different than stealing Fear, waiting for Steals cooldown to go down without using it, using Fear, stealing Fear again and using it. The timing remains the same regardless of whether or not Fear is being held in F2 or covering Steal in F1.

My point is really based on system trying to track two cooldowns instead of just one. If there will be no difference, then why tax the system with additional cooldown?

Even if I don’t use the items in successions, I will still be waiting for two cooldowns.

Imagine if F2 has 15s cooldown left and I have a Fear in it, but Steal is ready for use, then I saw a Warrior…I’d either wait 15s to use Steal to get the Warrior item after using F2, or get it now and replace my F2. The former will make me wait for F2 after waiting for F1.

In a heated fight, there’s no time to get distracted on whether to keep a stolen item or not.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

There’s really no benefit to this and no point on holding on to items for too long other than allowing Thief to reuse the same thing over and over.

It’s all about having control, if you don’t think control is important try out Hard to Catch.

This is not even about control. What control do you have on what item to steal?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If I’ve stolen from a Mesmer, there’s no way I’m giving that up so that will be a fixed item in my F2 — meaning, it’s broken — you’re just asking to get hit with a nerf bat.

My suggestion is self balancing.
If Consume Plasma is a “fixed item” in F2 then then you can’t use Steal without losing it, it’s a trade off you can keep Consume Plasma but you lose the utility of Steal so the only problem would be if Consume Plasma was so powerful that you never wanted to use Steal again in which case I think that would be more of a problem with Consume Plasma than my suggestion.

Not really, because some of the items are powerful enough to be one-time-use only. Take Mace Head Crack, for example. Can you imagine a Thief dazing you every time it comes off CD? And if chained with other disables, you’re really asking for a nerf bat swing.

If you don’t ever use stolen skills my suggestion changes nothing except removing the need to “burn off” stolen skills to use Steal again and if you do use stolen skills it lets you choose to use one repeatedly until, It is no longer needed\wanted, or you need\want to use Steal.

To be honest, I care little with the stolen items and care more about the functionality of steal. It means, I don’t want to give steal unnecessary attention that Anet can use as a reason to nerf it.

vrilek.4038:

The problem with thief class isnt health pool or damage -> its survival. After 10th Dec Thief wont be viable class on 5v5 tpvp type(only one type of pvp anyway since launch). If thieves get +20-30% dmg for all weaponsets and 20% more hp after next patch it still wont be viable class THATS THE REAL PROBLEM;)

Exactly. We need to trash the garbage Last Refuge and replace it with a GW2-style Feign Neutrality (see above) inspired by GW1 Assassin skill.

If they don’t want us to evade, we need thicker skins. and health regen.

evilapprentice.6379:

D/P – Blind blind blind blind blind blind blind. If you see zerkers stance up, Headshot and kite. If you see Zerkers stance AND stability, don’t bother til one both fades, because they’re immune to ALL your survivability mechanics.

^ this.

If you blind a Warrior, it doesn’t really matter what weapon he’s using. But make sure to waste his condition removal on non-blind condition.

GameVeight.2745:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

So why even store it? If I can steal from the same target over and over, why don’t I just do that and only wait for one cooldown instead of two?

You wouldn’t have to wait for two cooldowns the F2 cooldown would reset when a new skill was successfully stolen, from a balance perspective this is no different than the current system where you wait for Steal to be off cooldown before using the stolen skill you’ve got so you can use two stolen skills in rapid succession.

Yes I do. If I want to Fear twice in a row, I have to wait for F2 to get off cooldown, use it, steal a new Fear, then use the new Fear….then wait for both to get off cooldown.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Having its own cooldown doesn’t change the fact that I can still use it infinite number of times.

It’s less about being able to use the skills multiple times without re-stealing and more about having control over which stolen skills you want to use.

Admittedly this would be a more noticeable change in PvE where there are more stolen skills than in PvP but it does provide some strategic control over what you can do with your stolen skills, you could for example hang on to a Healing Seed from a ranger to provide a water field and AOE healing for your team in sPvP or WvW, it’s all about flexibility and control.

You’ll still face the same problem when you have Healing Seed, for example, then you find a Mesmer — you’d still waste that stolen item regardless if you want the item from the Mesmer. There’s really no benefit to this and no point on holding on to items for too long other than allowing Thief to reuse the same thing over and over.

If I’ve stolen from a Mesmer, there’s no way I’m giving that up so that will be a fixed item in my F2 — meaning, it’s broken — you’re just asking to get hit with a nerf bat.

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Omnitek.3876:

Excalibur.9748:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Both Guardian and Ele have great healing abilities and Thieves have….um, have…, kittens, I’m drawing a blank here.

guardians and eles have access to almost perma protection and vastly superior healing.

thief has stealth…and evades. both getting nurfed next patch. we’re fast becoming irrelevant.

Stealth isnt being nerfed Mr. Doom and Gloom. Relax and let’s see how it plays out first.

stealth isn’t being nerfed, but one of the best stealth traits is being nerfed (infusion of shadows) so it’s practically the same thing.

it’s nice that you remain optimistic but can’t blame me for being cynical since we get nerfed every patch with no buff in sight.

I guess, coming from other classes, to thief, I see thing wayyyyy differently still, even though I main thief now.

I dont use the trait. The flat ini change is a buff for me.

even if you don’t use it, it’s still a nerf to stealth since it’s considered one of the best traits to stealth. If no one used that trait then you could argue it’s inconsequential but it’s widely used.

What you’re saying is basically like me claiming warrior didn’t get nerfed since I didn’t use unsuspecting foe or hammer. Just because I didn’t use them doesn’t mean warrior didn’t get nerfed slightly.

The only way you could stand to get somehow buffed by this patch is if you use D/D or P/D (or glass cannon D/P) and even then I wouldn’t consider it a buff more like a rebalance. Once again, even if the nerfs didn’t affect you personally doesn’t mean they didnt’ happen.

Normalization is not a Nerf imo. Why should spending currency (initiative) reward you with more?

Normalization means — you nerf one thing to buff another.

That’s not what’s happening here, unfortunately.

The nerf on Opportunist is a net loss for Crit builds while there’s no buff noted to compensate for the loss, instead we will receive a Vigor nerf also.

Where’s the normalization?