Guild Wars 2

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That bit Glint’s quoting is – as shown in this episode – AFTER THE RITUAL.

If Glint had free will from the get go WHY DID THE FORGOTTEN PUT HER UNDER THE RITUAL?

You are right – she did have free will. AFTER THE RITUAL. She grieved. AFTER THE RITUAL. But you are wrong – she regained her free will BECAUSE OF THE RITUAL.

Think about it.

“I can hear the thoughts of creatures. I am an oracle. I heard their plots against my master, stopped them before they reached him, killed them in their tracks. But I also felt their agony, their loss. It grieved me.

Nothing said she it she felt it later, she obviously was saying that she felt it at the same time she did it.

THEN she added

“At first, for centuries, I defended my master. But I could hear his thoughts, too, and I knew that if he rose again, all good things would come to an end.” Glint blinked, staring at Eir. “Now is that time. Even now, Kralkatorrik is rising.”

Also, no evidence could prove that Glint was really cleansed by it or how was her condition before the ritual. Her own words is much more reliable than a Sylvari’s.

Bone is just part of the ice.

Like the Dragonspawn, it was made of ice and could turn into a storm.

Its body was fashioned of living ice. It had a long head like a cattle skull, and its eyes glowed with eerie blue flame. The rest of it seemed skeletal as well, with an arching spine draped in white robes. A blue-gray vapor circulated among its icy ribs, forming the body of the creature. Gaunt arms lifted clawed fingers, and gaunt legs spread talons on the ice. The creature reached to its sword belt and drew out a blade that was so cold it roiled with frost.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Then how did she regain her free will?

The NPC made a mistake, simple. She knew little about Glint compare to the dragon herself.

Dragon minions don’t have free will. They are enslaved when corrupted, fanatically devoted to their dragon. That is the entire point of the Forgotten ritual – it does not remove physical corruption of the body, it restores the individual will.

It was not the case on Glint obviously.

But I also felt their agony, their loss. It grieved me.

Glint does not tell her full history to Destiny’s Edge – not once did she mention the Forgotten ritual, for example. She only tells them what they need to know (or rather, what she thinks they need to know, which was enough).

What Glint tells Destiny’s Edge is events that happened after he regain her free will.

She made it very clear that she had her own thoughts, even when she was serving her master.

But I also felt their agony, their loss. It grieved me.

“Having her own thoughts” is not the same as “having free will”.

But Sea of Sorrows, Edge of Destiny, and various cases in-game point to the fact that dragon corruption alters one’s personality – it is effectively brainwashing with someone else’s will. They can act ‘individually’, but they have a hive mind. The forgotten ritual removes that brainwashing, giving them their own free will.

It’s not what happened to her as she said it loud and clear. Who knew Glint better? Herself, or a Sylvari who weren’t born until thousands of year later?

Zhaitan’s dragons could be corrupted dragon corpses. The Claw of Jormag contains bones in its body – where did those bones come from. There are many hints of a dragon race. Not all dragons were created, it may be. Glint certainly wasn’t created, so all hints point – and nothing points to her having been created.

Speculation is no proof, again. It’s not wise to use “certainly”. We also saw there were Dragons creating their champions-Primordus and its destroyers.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Warden Illyra hints that Glint was corrupted, not created, by Kralkatorrik.

Warden Illyra: Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.

To regain something, one must have had and lose it.

Glint had free will from the beginning. As it was told by herself.

Eir’s brow furrowed. “Why would you ally with humans against your own kind?”

The dragon’s great eyes went gray. "I can hear the thoughts of creatures. I am an oracle. I heard their plots against my master, stopped them before they reached him, killed them in their tracks. But I also felt their agony, their loss. It grieved me.

“At first, for centuries, I defended my master. But I could hear his thoughts, too, and I knew that if he rose again, all good things would come to an end.” Glint blinked, staring at Eir. “Now is that time. Even now, Kralkatorrik is rising.”

The ritual mostly removed control, but she did have her own thoughts from the beginning.

Her words> Some Npc’s judgement.

Morgus Lethe was a champion of Zhaitan. Before corruption, he was a norn.

A dragon champion isn’t solely created, they could be corrupted.

Dragons were all created, and Morgus Lethe’s special ability as a champion was given by Zhaitan, not his own.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

We have that she was said to have regained her free will, which would require her to be independent in the first place. Dialogue in Arah indicates she was a pre-existing creature who was corrupted, whereas no source indicates she was created by Kralkatorrik.

Warden Illyra: Glint was a champion of the Elder Dragon Kralkatorrik, but somehow she shook off his yoke.

It’s quite clear, I don’t think we should argue on this any further.

“I can hear the thoughts of creatures. I am an oracle. I heard their plots against my master, stopped them before they reached him, killed them in their tracks. But I also felt their agony, their loss. It grieved me.

“At first, for centuries, I defended my master. But I could hear his thoughts, too, and I knew that if he rose again, all good things would come to an end.” Glint blinked, staring at Eir. “Now is that time. Even now, Kralkatorrik is rising.”-EoD

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

That seems a bit of a jump. The Master is supposedly trying to hatch the egg, which inclines we to think we want to help for what a dragon can do, not because the egg might have a passive corruption-cleanse buff.

It’s surely going to help us fight Mord in someway. So it’s accurate to say using Kralkatorrik’s power to fight Mord.

That depends on whether the baby has any power from Kralkatorrik. At the moment, we don’t even know how much of Glint’s power was Kralky’s- the predilection for crystals in her dwelling and guards certainly suggests his corruption repurposed, but her oracle abilities are spoken of as entirely unique to her, and the ability to soak up and exude magic is said to be something inherent to dragons in general. Only if we employ the first of those would we be using Kralk’s power, and I don’t see what good that’d do us- we already have asuran golems, and we don’t know how complicated or lengthy building crystal fortresses might be.

She was created by Kralkatorrik, of course she was part of his power. Her oracle ability was given by her master to stop those who wanted to kill the dragon. Unless we have any proof of her got power from other source, she was a champion of Kralkatorrik, of course her creation was part of the dragon’s power as well.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

That seems a bit of a jump. The Master is supposedly trying to hatch the egg, which inclines we to think we want to help for what a dragon can do, not because the egg might have a passive corruption-cleanse buff.

It’s surely going to help us fight Mord in someway. So it’s accurate to say using Kralkatorrik’s power to fight Mord.

Also where did it say such thing? I finished the new LS but couldn’t remember.

I think Jormag fit the “mind” section much better than Mordremoth. Mordremoth doesn’t seem to be able to affect being’s mind other than Sylvari.

In the new living story, we are hinted to use Glint’s egg to fight Mord. Basically it’s Kralkatorrik’s power, maybe it explained why the Mordems didn’t invade the Dragonbrand.

So that blue orb might indeed be the Deep Sea Dragon’s fragment.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Says a Krytan that did not see such a thing personally. Anet’s made it a point that second hand information is fallible.

Lost Souls calls that account into question anyways, by having a corrupt (in the political sense) and powerful necromancer vizier in King Reza’s reign – was it Khilbron? Or someone else. Hard to believe a series of corrupt powerful necromancers capable of creating powerful armies of undead.

Why do I keep denying a connection? Because of the interview I already linked:

Thalador: How much did the Cataclysm affect Zhaitan? (His sleep, his estimated time of awakening, maybe even his life signs.)

Jeff Grubb: Not in the least. Zhaitan is unaffected by such small things as wrinkles in the world’s crust, and in the mere sinking of continents.

http://www.guildmag.com/guildmag-special-zhaitans-secrets/

Jeff Grubb is asked how much affect the Cataclysm had on Zhaitan. He responds with “not in the least”.

Then he goes on to say that Zhaitan is unaffected by “wrinkles in the world’s crust, and in the mere sinking of continents”.

He practically downright states that the Cataclysm’s only affect was the sinking of Orr itself. Hinting that the necromantic effect is not directly part of the Cataclysm.

Perhaps now you understand my stance.

Actually, NPC’s words is valuable unless it was proved wrong by more official source or fact, which hasn’t been any. What does it have to do with him? It’s proved that the scroll did change him into the lich.

Zhaitan was affected/unaffected had nothing to do with “Did the Lost Scroll channel its power”. They are totally 2 different questions.

The Cataclysm clearly had something to do with the undead in GW1.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jacob_Salinger

What do you know about the Vizier?

Before the Searing, he was the advisor to the King of Orr in all matters arcane. When the Charr reached the borders of Orr, the Vizier delved into the sacred tombs beneath Arah, the City of the Gods. There he found and unfurled one of the forbidden scrolls. Reading the dark magic upon it, he managed to turn back the Charr invasion, but at great cost. The resulting explosion sank Orr into the sea and transformed the Vizier from a living being of flesh and bone into an undying lich, made of ichor and decay.

So it’s made clear that the spell DID turn him into the lich. The other undead could have been under similar effect as well. Abaddon and and Khilbron might not know it, but it indeed might have something to do with Zhaitan.

I don’t understand why Konig was keep denying what was made clear in GW1.

I want the Necromancer Vabbian set
[img]http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/thumb/a/a4/%22Necro_Highland%22_concept_art.jpg/300px-%22Necro_Highland%22_concept_art.jpg[/img]

Mesmer Vabbian armor

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mesmer_Vabbian_armor

Mesmer Elite Elegant armor

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mesmer_Elite_Elegant_armor

Mesmer Elite Noble armor

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mesmer_Elite_Noble_armor

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It doesn’t seem to be on the wiki – there are missing dialogues after all – though I recall seeing it in previous playthroughs (only Vigil and Whisper members made it through, so maybe a Whisper member gets the line). Not sure if it’s during Retribution or Forging the Pact.

And of course we don’t see it commanding the troops. They have a hive mind. We can’t read their thoughts. You NEVER see dragon minions talking to each other, let alone ordering one another, except in very rare situations – like the Sovereign Eye commanding the champion guards to leave, which was more of a psychological move to confuse Trahearne and the PC.

They do talk to each other, Captain Whitning gave order to his crew. Other than the Claw Island, we can see the dragons don’t stay with their army. In the case of the Claw Island one, Plaguebringer didn’t make any tactic order or command or even stay with the troops in the beginning, pretty much like the Maw. The Maw also showed up later than the Dead Ships. The land army looks more likely commanded by powerful Risen mortals(similar to the navy) such as the Archmage in the Steel Tide quest.

Morgus was but a single example, not meant to be the sole situation.

Do we see a dragon with Morgus Lethe? No. Do we see a dragon with the Eye of Zhaitan? No. They aren’t going to be with every invasion effort.

Actually they don’t even stay with the troops. So it’s not likely to be their duty. Also, different Elder Dragons’ champions are quite different. Since their way to create minions are entirely different.

They had power, surprise, and numbers. Attacking the most number of enemies while they’re all off guard, rather than eliminating one group and attacking the others when they know of the threat is not exactly the smartest way to go about things.

Striking at the leaders and advancements is not without intelligence.

But they weren’t really offguard, they were already warned and the assault truly let them realize the threat.

NPCs can be subjective, and the dialogue I use is not contradicted. I think the fact that the Dragonspawn was killed by six individuals with a wolf and two golems kind of makes it seem just a liiiittle bit weaker than a dragon that takes a small army with specialized weaponry to defeat.

You know, just a little.

And the blizzards we see in-game aren’t nearly as bad because we stop them before they can deal a lot of damage.

The same individuals(minus Logan) almost killed Kralkatorrik with Glint’s help. In the description of the Blizzard summoned by the Dragonspawn, it was much worse than the Svanir Shaman’s work, and it made much worse effort.

Watch, yes. Carry? Questionable, at best.

They do give order to other undead more than once.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I fail to see what “we’re talking about Zhaitan” has to do with this, particularly? Where is it ever said that Zhaitan doesn’t have intelligent dragons?

After defeating Blightghast, Trahearne (iirc) says that he was one of Zhaitan’s strongest champions, and that it was leading the forces. That’s why we had to lure it out, just like how we lured out each of the champions in the earlier steps by slaughtering the grunts.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retribution

Where? Even in the battle, it didn’t command the troops. It just waited until the battle was close to lose then bust in again, and got killed.

During the invasion of Orr, the dragons are busy battling a fleet of airships. Just go to any Orr map and look up.

That’s exactly what I’m talking about, they are powerful weapons, not commanders of the army. Have you seen any good commander would abandon its army and just fight on the sky?

We never once see an Eye leading forces, actually. We see the temple priests leading armies in Orr, but never the Mouth nor the Eyes. The navy was indeed led by captains, but they appeared to be of lieutenant ranking instead of champion (exceptions being Morgus Lethe).

Not just Morgus, Captain Whitning also serves as the leader of the Risen navy, do we see a dragon alongside him in all 3 encounters? No. Only the Maw serves as the most powerful weapon.

But yet it knew where to attack… or was the assault on the PC when communicating with the norn to build an army, or the attack on the golem foundry that was building a stronger weapon to assault the destroyers, or the attacks on dwarven forces (Raven’s Point dungeon, for example), all pure coincidence?

I find that hard to believe. The Great Destroyer is outright stated to have been coordinating the assaults. And though there was no communication, it doesn’t show mindlessness, but a strategic mind. It just isn’t highlighted.

They were busting from different places. If they truly are intelligent, they would just focus on one without making others aware of the danger, then move on to the next target. We can also see in GW2, compare to other dragons, the destroyers lack of tactic.

The Dragonspawned only threatened norn in the form of retaliation.

All icebrood seem capable of corrupting people via telepathy/their will. We see massive blizzards in The Frozen Maw and one of the Dredgehaunt Cliffs events – done by mere Sons of Svanir. Surely a most important champion would be able to do more than what we see out of common Sons, yes?

No, he “declared war against Norn” as mentioned, in the book it’s clearly mentioned that he is the greatest champion of Jormag. It was mentioned more than once in the novel by different people.

None of these Blizzard did much harm to any of us players, but the one that the Dragonspawn summoned through Jormag’s power killed many many people along with animals.

Knut ’ s face stiffened . “ This storm was worse than the ice brood . It has killed more — ”

Other than Jormag, Dragonspawn and Drakkar were the only one with such power. In both the game and the novel EoD, we don’t see the Icebrood turn others into one, none of the EoD member mentioned it either.

Since you use NPC’s dialogue as evidence, please don’t ignore the other dialogue when they are against your point.

Point out where, then.

The catacombs beneath the Temple of Balthazar? Nope. That guy’s resting until we disturb him. So was the Risen King in the royal catacombs in the event. The Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan? Nope. He’s just defending that one spring. The one in Doric’s Shrine – he’s patrolling, alone. The Eye we kill after the temple of Abaddon? He has some grunts with him, but hardly an ‘army’. The three Eyes in Arah explorable? Could be, but we have Zhaitan himself there at the same time, and dragons in the distance.

And I think that’s all the Eyes we see.

To argue that, would be saying the Risen scouts – which precede an attack by Zhaitan’s horde (amazing how the role suddenly switches… oversight, my little writers!) – were leading the assaults on Port Noble and Lion’s Arch…

The one during the siege of Arah. Maybe commanders are a bit inaccurate, they are more like the Overseers to watch and carry the order for Zhaitan.

Also, not everyone who got slain by the Risen turn into one. We can see quite a few NPC didn’t suffer such fate, especially during the assault on Orr. It might need a champion nearby to carry the power. Also the Blue Orb somehow countered Zhaitan’s corruption.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I disagree greatly!

Blightghast was the commander of the assault on Claw Island, whom had at least four champions beneath him! Those six being Thaddeus Ghostrite (assaulted Lion’s Arch’s northern beach), Lord Zhim Alarjann (assaulted the Durmand Priory), Vizier Ghil Ironghoul (assaulted Vigil Keep), and Admiral Feiste Bakkir (assaulted the Chantry of Secrets).

Glint, when known as Glaust, was Kralkatorrik’s defender.

The Great Destroyer was tasked with heralding Primordus’ return by exterminating all life.

The Claws of Jormag have been assaulting the kodan in their flight south, while the Dragonspawn merely defended a single cave.

Tequatl led the assaults on hylek homelands.

The Shadow of the Dragon led the assault on the Pale Tree.

The dragons, in my observations, are the highest commanders and while a lot are kept near the Elder Dragon and act as defenders, they’re also the commanders of the largest assault forces.

We are talking about Zhaitan. Blightghast didn’t command anything, it just bust in and caused massive destruction in the end of the battle. It appears similar to the Maw in the battle in Seas of Sorrows. Tequatl is similar. They are spreading corruption and serve as the most powerful weapon of the dragon. During the assault of Orr, we also don’t see the dragons commanding the army, they mostly stay in Arah and defend their masters. The Eye of Zhaitan, along with a few high rank Risen are the commanders leading Zhaitan’s troops. The navy was also commanded by the captains

Slowpokeking.8720:

The Great Destroyer showed to possess enough intelligence to carry the destroyer’s actions across the entirety of the continent. That’s not enough intelligence for you?

Not much, it’s just carrying the master’s will without showing much tricks like Glint, the Dragonspawn or some champions of Zhaitan.

The Claws aren’t just spreading corruption, they’re assaulting those who flee from Jormag. Hence their names as Claws of Jormag.

The Dragonspawn was merely defending a cave that housed an army, and though he channeled Jormag’s power… so do simple Svanir shamans.

The Dragonspawn was leading the Icebrood army and keep threatening the Norn, it could turn people into Icebrood with its will, and it could channel Jormag’s power to create a massive blizzard without much effort, this is clearly beyond any of the Claws we saw.

Slowpokeking.8720:

The Eyes appear as no more commanders as any other champion, but serve as direct eyesight for Zhaitan – hence the giant eye they carry around (those eyes by all appearances are separate from the actual beings).

They do command the armies.

Yes, an Eye and a Mouth. The Eye concerns me more. It always precedes an attack by Zhaitan’s horde, so it must become our new priority.

Primordus-Hive structure, one of a few champions create and command rest of the destroyers drones. Even the champions don’t seem to possess too much intelligence, just carry its master’s order.

Jormag-Not sure about Drakkar. A few Claws to spread corruption, used to have the Dragonspawn to corrupt and command other beings into Icebrood, it even could directly channel its power. The SoS have free will, they empower the dragon and plot assault, sometimes command Icebrood. Jormag itself also communicate with mortals through its champions and weapons to lure and corrupt them.

Kralkatorrik-Used to have one very intelligent champion to seek the enemy’s mind and create minions, now it just creates a few powerful dragons and they were led(possibly commanded) by the strongest one, the Shatterer. Whoever the strongest becomes the Shatterer.

DSD and Mord-not knowing too much

Zhaitan-It doesn’t have a single most powerful champion. Mostly different ranks of champions with different duty

Eyes-commanders and seekers
Mouth-Eat magic for the dragon
Dragons(and the Maw)-powerful weapons and spread corruptions
Undead Captains-The Navy Commander

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Based off of my observations, I classify dragon minions into four categories:

• Grunts: the lowest ones, often mindless of near mindless. They do nothing but swarm enemies and shout only the simplest of things – if say anything at all. The most common of minions. Examples: Jungle Tendrils, Risen Thralls, Destroyer Crabs.
• Lieutenants: sapient-questionable to semi-sapient and low ranked, capable of commanding grunts in low numbers but ability to spread corruption is questionable. In-game, they are often showed as veteran, sometimes champions (maybe elites too). Examples: Veteran Risen Kitah Conjurer, Veteran Destroyer Lieutenant, Veteran Branded Lieutenant.
• Champions: sapient and high ranked, capable of commanding full armies of both grunts and lieutenants, and a strong ability to spread corruption. In-game, they are often showed as champion and legendary (maybe elites too). Examples: Captain Whiting, Dragonspawn, Eye of Zhaitan, Mouth of Zhaitan.
• Dragons: sapience-questionable, highest ranked and strongest of champions, capable of commanding large armies and all lesser ranks. They always appear as dragons. Examples: Glint, Tequatl, Blightghast, Shadow of the Dragon, Claw of Jormag.

I would place the “Risen Corruptor” (iirc that’s the name), though labeled as a champion mechanically, as a Lieutenant with this listing. Though it is possible it is a champion.

The dragons are mostly the strongest weapon force of Zhaitan rather than commanders.

Dragonspawn obviously is more important than the Claws to Jormag. Actually different dragons use different commanding structure.

Rukh.9287:

Its something a lot of people have been suggesting, because dragons aren’t supposed to naturally be able to corrupt other dragons, so it’d make sense of the blue orbs run on DSD power. There’s other things they could be of course. The Krait could just have some technology we don’t, or they could be Mursaat artifacts, or Margonite artifacts.

The Krait didn’t make it, they found it in Ocean’s Deep.

The Krait got it from the Deep and it could counter Zhaitan’s power. Could it be a piece of the Deep Sea Dragon, we saw there is some blade made by Jormag’s blood. There are also arts of Zhaitan’s minions fighting sea monsters. They might be DSD’s minions

In the end of the quest PC was suspecting there was a traitor, or could it be the link between Mord and the Pale Tree?

Horst Hortensie.5420:

The point where we stole the orb was full of risen krait afterwards in the personal story. Now there are no risen anymore, just normal krait. I wonder if they pulled another orb and what did they do with the risen there.

The pact uses equal magic for their smaller forts in Orr while the orb should just be in Fort Trinity. And these smaller forts use usually thorn vines along with the blue glowing magic.

Some arts also shows Zhaitan’s Risen fighting Sea Monsters. Maybe those are DSD’s minions?

Actually the Blue Orb is quite interesting, it could protect livings from Zhaitan’s power, could it be the Deep Sea Dragon’s artifact? Maybe the Dragons’ power could be used counter each other as a chain?

Jormag also tricks grawl and ogre to worship him to draw power from them. It seems to gain power from mental worship. The Sons of Svanir mostly have their own will, just could choose to become Icebrood to empower themselves sometimes.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Really I wouldn’t expect the government to do anything.

Assuming the scumbags are even in the US.

If they are in another country then there is absolutely 0.0% chance anything will be done to stop it legally.

If NCstoft were to show some balls and trace the twitter accounts of the people taking credit for it however they could simply make said persons name publicly known & wait for “Karmic” justice to happen.

One of them lives in UK, he post a timeline based on UK time then deleted it.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

The foefire ghost remained in the brand while anything else was transformed and the corruption the dragons do is kind of devouring. Jormag devours flesh and replaces it with ice. Zhaitan devoured souls, the reason he never raised/used true undead. Kralkatorric seems to devour ?anything? and replaces it with crystals. Anything in the brand (even plants) was turned into crystal, except foefire ghosts. This happened while creating the brand (see Almorra Soulkeeper’s warband). Maybe the foefire ghosts share the same “immunity” like sylvari.

Sadly even this is limited, because there are some small areas in which the ghost should still exist (I don’t know a possibility to finally destroy them), but they are simply not there (which is either design oversight or planned).

Also the Branded could turn others into one(the Ogre Chieftain) but we never see them corrupt any ghosts.

Magister Sieran, Explorer Hekja and Apatia.

Let’s make the thread to remember the npc characters? The ones I remember

Magister Sieran(Sacrificed herself in the Battle of Claw Island)
Tybalt Leftpaw(Sacrificed himself in the Battle of Claw Island)
Warmaster Forgal Kernsson (Sacrificed himself in the Battle of Claw Island)
Hylek Coyolaqui (Fought the Risen attack against his village and died)
Watch Commander Talon(DIed in the Battle of Claw Island)
Apatia(Got captured and turned to Risen by the Krait)
Explorer Hekja(Got tricked by Risen and turned into one)
Kekt and his crew(Killed by their former companion Ferghen)
Arda Gyreshriek(Died in the action of the Searing Blast)
Havroun Grechen(Died and turned into Risen in a failed attempt to cleanse Orr)

lordkrall.7241:

The problem with this is that if they do, they would have to move the whole schedule, which would most likely be rather annoying/time-consuming and it would also kill those sites that shows when events happen.

Really? Can’t they just change on event?

Hannelore.8153:

Its fake. And you’re giving them attention by linking to it.

NCSoft is actually having datacenter issues, which you could see if you would follow the various twitter accounts of developers and operators.

DDoSers do not cause “hardware failures”.

But many games had the same problem recent day, it also happens during teq time.

So we won’t have to wait for that long.

DDOS attack again, from the same group.

Tman.6349:

Went into Sparkfly 45 mins early to setup up a Teq kill. Played taxi for 20 mins filling the map. Got us all organized. Banners down. Feast of power food. Everything looking great. First phase, defense, and burn smooth as silk….then disconnected. FTW

Same.

The Ascalon ghosts cannot be destroyed or corrupted (at least not by Kralkatorrik), it will keep spawn back, wonder what would happen if we use them to fight the dragons.

Wanderer.3248:

Is this some long winded way of trying to prove Zhaitan is still alive?

Otherwise I don’t see the point in this argument, since clearly the risen are still shambling around eating brains and such.

I think they will wither over time without their master or a powerful champion’s control. Plus the Source of Orr is cleansed.

Shiren.9532:

Didn’t Ree do an interview before launch where she mentions that lower tier minions are, in a way, mindless (that is, they don’t formulate plans on their own) and Elder Dragons have champions that organise that kind of thing? We know Tequatl is still alive and kicking, it doesn’t matter whether Zhaitan is dead or not – at least one of its champions is still around giving orders.

It’s like a chain of command. Zhaitan made a big goal-its champions obey its order and make plans-the minions will do what its master say.

Also we can see, other than a few champions(Glint, the Great Destroyer, Drakkar, maybe Lupi), we don’t see the previous wave of the dragons’ minions still exist. So I think without their master or a powerful champion, they could not last for too long. The City of Arah still have some influence because Zhaitan wasn’t dead for long.

But I still aren’t sure about champions’ functioning, they are still linked with the dragon, if they die the dragon gets weakened(great destroyer), why would teq become more powerful?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

A lot – if not all – risen seem to view themselves as special to Zhaitan. Take the Veteran Kitah Conjurer in the Kitah Manse event (open world), who says that Zhaitan specifically chose him – he’s a figure of no consequence, and the Elder Dragons don’t care for their little army of ants.

Who said they don’t ? Zhaitan obviously made a very organized army rather than just raise whatever it saw, according to King Reza, it made the eyes over the king and queen rather than other dead bodies, it roared when some of its champions got slain. Again your analysis didn’t match with what happened at all. The Destroyers simply counter your argument.

Again don’t take your own assumption to twist other’s words, it’s totally pointless.

Firstly the “what they saw could be seen by Zhaitan” was unique to the Eyes alone – for the rest, it was just “what they knew, Zhaitan knew” (a subtle difference indeed). Secondly, by arguing they’re puppets you were saying they’re directly controlled by Zhaitan. They don’t bear its will, they think they do, and only the champions follow its orders – but even then they still act autonomously.

Many evidences suggested that they and Zhaitan were linked. There was no eyes around when Captain Whiting and the Mouth were killed but Zhaitan could still feel it. Again they do bear his will. We don’t see Zhaitan assemble his armies together to give them order, he directly gave them order through their minds. From the battles we don’t see the champions tell the others what to do, they immediately know what to do. Many of them don’t even bear intelligence. Many of them don’t even have much intelligence in their life like cattle, chicken or shark, but they obey Zhaitan’s will and won’t ruin the mission.

Most of the Risen army are nigh-mindless berserkers, possessing only a fraction of the dragon’s willpower.

So… the Sovereign Eye letting Trahearne and the PC past 6 champion Risen Knights (which literally could wipe the floor with you if you attack them before the scripting turns them to allies) just to deal with them personally was part of Zhaitan’s will?

Zhaitan told him to guard this place and vanquish the intruders, he was obeying the dragon’s order. Sure they have intelligence but they were still linked to the dragon and obey its will, that’s all.

Actually, just about every dragon minion line and dialogue about dragon corruption that is beyond “they’re forces of nature” is my base of reasoning.

For example, if you read Edge of Destiny, you are shown the thoughts of two branded individuals and they immediately turn to worship Kralkatorrik, but they still think and act individually. In Arah explorable, it is stated that Glint was given free will; in Edge of Destiny, she explains how she didn’t realize how evil Kralkatorrik was until she heard the thoughts of those she slew (presumably, as she fails to mention the ritual, this was after said ritual).

Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan are different beings. Just like the Destroyers were controlled by the champion or Primordus directly. Without the controller they collapse. Glint was freed from the ritual.

In Sea of Sorrows, Captain Whiting goes out of his way to bring Cobiah Marriner on board. He even says to retreat after they have him! Is this Zhaitan’s doing? He launched a full scale invasion just to give up after obtaining a single man? That doesn’t sound like an Elder Dragon who couldn’t give a kitten about the mere ants around him. So clearly that’s Whiting’s descretion.

He said retreat because the ship took too much damage, not because they had Cobiah. Sure, the dragons aren’t morons, they don’t launch full invasion without enough preparation.

Is it Zhaitan’s will and orders to let Trahearne, who had already proven once he can reverse corruption, into the place Trahearne needed to do exactly that (reverse the corruption)?

Again, the eyes was not trying to let Trahearne enter the chamber, the other rooms were very heavily guarded, it was keep taunting at him that’s all.

The very fact that the risen act without change after Zhaitan’s defeat in Arah explorable is proof that they don’t function on Zhaitan’s direct orders, else they’d be going “What do I do oh my lord and master and savior Zhaitan!? What do I do!?!?” – they don’t. They’re still functioning. They’re still corrupting. They’re still praising Zhaitan and claiming Zhaitan demands this and that. They still function as if Zhaitan is alive and kicking, despite the opposite being true. THAT is all the proof that’s really needed, the rest of this is just icing on the cake.

So you were keep stating that Risen are liars, but now turned up to them to support your argument? That’s kinda weak.

Rukh.9287:

What I meant is that while Zhaitan gave focus to this energy of undeath, I think the energy of undeath and the desire to corrupt and rot exists without zhaitan. It just doesn’t have the singular strategic purpose anymore. It seems more like the dragons form naturally as a font of the energy, they don’t make the energy themselves.

Undead do not mean they are evil, we can see most of them are vicious but do evil thing only because of Zhaitan’s will. Prince Rurik in GW1 also was a good example, he wasn’t evil after became undead, but could not control himself.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Firstly, there’s a difference between a risen saying that those it is fighting will become puppets, and that it is a puppet. Remember, risen are compulsive liars who excel at saying demoralizing things.

“My will is Zhaitan’s” it’s connected with this and she made clear that her will is Zhaitan’s. Again do you have evidence that could counter her words?

And no, the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan was not directly controlled by Zhaitan. “My mind is no longer controlled by the dragon’s curse.” – this is not “my mind is no longer controlled by the dragon” but by the dragons CURSE

Of course they were directly controlled by Zhaitan, they bear its will, obey its order and what they saw could be seen by Zhaitan. It’s even made clear that they were “chained” to it. I don’t understand why are you keep backing evidence after evidence.

King Reza: Yes. We were chained to the dragon, corrupted into monsters that bore Zhaitan’s vision and carried out its will.

All risen are autonomous. They do not require Zhaitan’s constant control. They function independently. If Zhaitan stops paying attention, they will not crumple, they will keep acting. There is a difference between being brainwashed and being a puppet.

All of their known evil action were carrying Zhaitan’s will, their mind are linked with Zhaitan(made clear during the order quest), sure they don’t need Zhaitan’s direction to know "how to do it " but clearly was directed by Zhaitan of “what to do”.

In the act of corruption, creatures are enslaved, not turned into puppets. Their complete freedom of choice is taken, as they are turned into fanatical sycophants towards the dragon who corrupted them.

You kinda don’t get it. “Turned into puppets” does not mean they could not think anymore independently. But their will is bound to Zhaitan, they could not act independently because the dragon’s will direct them. Many many evidences proved this.

Why would they? They’ve been brainwashed into believing Zhaitan to be eternal, more powerful than the Six Gods themselves. To them, the concept of Zhaitan’s death is nonexistent, even with its death. This is the point of being brainwashed into drooling fanatical servants. They are not puppets. They do not require Zhaitan’s constant attention – such an army is poor. This is why the weakest of minions know of nothing more than swarming all living things they encounter. They are autonomous, and they function without Zhaitan’s efforts, and with their brainwashing and enslavement, they will serve Zhaitan’s will even if Zhaitan is not giving them direct orders or controlling them directly because that is what they’ve been programmed to do – it is what their brainwashing demands them to do.

Again there is no proof but bunch of evidence countering your argument. There is no point to state it again and again without a bit of evidence other than your own speculation.

Rukh.9287:

I believe game devs confirmed Zhaitan bit the dust.

I see it like this. The magic still exists. Zhaitan was a concentration of the magic and actively guided it, using it to corrupt things, but him being gone doesn’t make the magic gone, in fact it would be dispersed back in to the environment, making other concentrations of it, i.e. Teakettle and other undead stronger. It does however mean there isn’t this powerful force going around actively corrupting things and trying to destroy civilization. So that’s a good thing at least.

It turned living into undead, but we can see they do bad things mostly because Zhaitan want them to do it. Now Zhaitan is gone, shouldn’t they lose their goal?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Slowpokeking, there is a VERY big difference between “carried out its will” and “directed by its will.”

The former situation is, in this case, the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan knowing Zhaitan’s will, and choosing (through the forced immense fanaticism) to carry it out. The latter, using the same minion as an example, would be the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan being controlled directly by Zhaitan.

It may seem nitpickery, but it’s important – just like it’s important whether Glint’s eggs were produced due to her being pregnant before corruption, or if they’re a case of a dragon champion creating more dragon minions (no pregnancy invovled). In one case, you have an individual who has some degree of choice and free will (although heavily altered due to corruption) and decides its own actions and has its own thoughts (again, heavily altered due to corruption), in the latter the Elder Dragon is a puppetmaster and the minions are literally lifeless husks that would cease to function the moment the Elder Dragon stops paying attention.

By all indication, the Elder Dragons are brainwashers, not puppeteers. The risen, icebrood, etc. will all continue to function after the Elder Dragons are dead, because they are all automanous individuals. They don’t require the Elder Dragon to function, no different than you don’t need your government to function. The Elder Dragon isn’t a brain to a single body, it’s the queen of a bee hive (likely a poor comparison, but best I can think of).

They are puppeteers, one of them even made it clear.

Labwan the Deceiver: My will is Zhaitan’s.
Labwan the Deceiver: You and your troops will be his puppets.

The Eye have no choice but to obey Zhaitan, sure the high rank ones have their own intelligence but was still directly controlled by Zhaitan. They do bad things because of the dragon’s direction.

King Reza: Ah… My own hand…my own form. My mind is no longer controlled by the dragon’s curse. Praise the gods, I am free!

King Reza: Yes. We were chained to the dragon,

Cynz.9437:

still can’t sell anything, says: error attempting to sell

Same.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The risen are compulsive liars, don’t take their words with absolute certainty. There are also risen who say that Zhaitan has chosen them specifically (Kitah Conjurer, the Veteran Risen Wizard at the top of the Vizier’s Tower, etc.).

There’s a difference between “being directed by his will” and “being brainwashed into serving him.” By all indications, the Elder Dragons don’t give orders – they let their minions roam, and their champions do the ordering, expansions of territories, and the like. Zhaitan may be ‘ordering’ (in the loosest sense of the word) the champions to do certain things, but it’s less of being “directed by his will” and more of the corruption brainwashing them to do only that which serves him – by all appearances at least.

Of course they give orders, the pact members all mention the big action was Zhaitan’s will. And the Risen said pretty much the same thing. When one got turned, Zhaitan even gain all of its knowledge and secret. When its champions were slain he also roar. It’s quite obvious that their mind are linked.

I think it’s going to stubborn level to ignore such hard evidence.

King Reza said it loud and clear after he was freed, why would he lie to us?

King Reza: "Yes. We were chained to the dragon, corrupted into monsters that bore Zhaitan’s vision and carried out its will. One by one, you have freed us. "

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But as we see in Arah explorable – which takes place after his defeat – the risen still act as if he’s alive and kicking, and continue to praise him and work for him.

Nothing really says the minions are “directed by his will”, by the way.

Many Risen mentioned their will is Zhaitan’s. Even newly turned ones.

If Zhaitan was not the one who gave them order, then who was? It’s quite obvious.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

According to Arah explorable, the risen remain unaltered after Zhaitan’s defeat. This indicates that corruption isn’t a maintained effect, but permanent.

Given Tequatl’s power boost though, something has been happening with the Risen. And I we tie this in with the Temple’s priests’ power boost way back when, and the increased size of Orrian risen models… Well, make what you will out of such connections – my theory has been (since Tequatl Rising) that Zhaitan’s magic is still connected to his minions but without Zhaitan to drain them of magic to feed, or maintain the connection, they’re siphoning off of the magic becoming more powerful over time.

And champions are capable of creating other champions – Drakkar, a champion of Jormag, created Svanir, another champion of Jormag. With the risen’s case post-Zhaitan, there is theoretically simply less corruption to spread and make new minions – so there are, again theoretically, a finite amount of new risen capable of being made.

But given that the Living Story has yet to focus on the risen, we just simply don’t know. Because ArenaNet can only handle one plot at a time, and their attempts to handle more turn into Secret of Southsun and The Dragon’s Reach: Part 1.

The Risen are bound to Zhaitan, answer to him, but now he’s dead, they shouldn’t be directed by his will.

Since Zhaitan is dead, shouldn’t their will become free? Especially those who without a powerful champion around. I think we already killed most of the dragon champions on Orr right? Also I don’t think any of its champion could make new champion with their own power.

After his “There’s something in the water. Help!”, what happened to him? Did he get away quick enough?

Do you think Zhaitan might spent too much power to rise up the continent and create so many minions, so many champions, so itself’s power went weak and had to feed so much through its mouth?