Ah okay, I didn’t know you were speculating and theorizing. It could be an interesting theory that Glint, who was free from Kralkatorrik’s control started to manipulate us in order to achieve that we kill the Lich, killing off the Mursaat and Titans. Which basically meant an end to all the over reactive killing of innocent people. (Without explanation, no less)
The only thing the mursaat did was protecting themselves, at the costs of others. Mursaat never really cared. (Maybe until now)
There’s still part of me hoping it’s just the seers though, or we meet both.
It’s not a theory, it’s what happened.
Mursaat did help to save Kryta and kept the seal for a while, their purpose might be save themselves, but their action saved many more than they killed.
Imagine some firefighters rescued a group of people from a burning building. Then, after the fire has been put out and the danger is gone, the firefighters stone half the people they rescued to death because the firefighters are religious fundamentalists and stoning is the clearly prescribed punishment in their religious texts for the cohabitation without marriage of the people in question
I don’t think there’s any doubt as to how most people would view such an act, regardless of how reasonable it would have been for the firefighters to have deemed it too risky to rescue those people in the first place.
The mursaat appeared not out of any virtue, but because it served their purposes to do so: it allowed them to cement their position as the “saviours of Kryta” while allowing them to choose leaders for the Mantle that lacked the moral fiber to object to their plans for Kryta.
Correction, Mursaat don’t have duty to save humans, unlike firefighters. They didn’t suddenly stone people to death, they made this very clear right after they showed up and Saul agreed.
The fact is: They didn’t show up before Saul called for their help.
EDIT @Slowpokeking: Sure, they announced there would be a price beforehand. However, this is not the sort of price that people ask to be paid unless they are evil themselves, and Saul realised that at the end. Just because something is part of a deal does not mean that the deal was not an evil one to begin with.
I suspect Saul also had a different idea as to who was ‘truly worthy’. As stated previously, the ones that the mursaat chose to kill were probably the most virtuous of the group. By killing the ones that they did, the mursaat demonstrated that it was the things that Saul – and good people in general – valued that the mursaat viewed as signifying unworthiness.
Imagine if you’d been in Saul’s situation, and your followers include Stalin, Mother Theresa, Fred Hollows, Sir Galahad, Joan of Arc, Osama bin Laden, and Hermann Goring. You accept the deal, recognising that the fact that it is mentioned means that some of the people you’re with will probably be deemed unworthy, and the knowledge that some of your companions are a little on the unsavory side. Then, at the end… it’s Theresa, Hollows, Galahad, and Joan that get the chop, and Stalin, bin Laden, and Goring that get the apparent stamp of approval.
It’s for them to decide, not Saul, if you speak to the monk Mursaat his/her aline is something like “don’t bother, we have our plan.”
Remember they didn’t show up until Saul had asked for their help, Saul even said yes after they told him about the deal. They were all going to die if the Mursaat hadn’t helped. I won’t say it’s that bad.
I also think there weren’t that much difference between those followers at that time, they were all brave enough to risk their lives and stand out for their nation and people.
With the battle over, there was no reason that any of them had to die. A good or even neutral person does not institute a policy of killing anyone who beholds them for the crime of not meeting some arbitrary standard of “worthiness”. Some beings, like the gods, are so powerful that this happens without their volition and sometimes even against their will, but that isn’t the case with the mursaat – they had to take conscious action to murder half of Saul’s squad.
Regarding the Unseen nature of the Unseen – the impression that I’ve always had is that the mursaat can observe from their invisible state, but have to appear to act on our plane. They can’t take offensive actions while still out of phase. (Incidentally, this could be an explanation for their altered appearance – they appear all glowy because that’s how they appear when they’re out of phase, but choose to allow themselves to be seen regardless.)
That was part of the deal. I won’t call it nice, they probably tried to hide themselves from most of the humans but they made it very clear in the beginning before they helped, and Saul answered “Yes my lords.” Still, this deal saved Kryta and caused some death, who would have been dead anyway if the Mursaat weren’t called.
You can’t just reinterpret a word because it fits your narrative;
A prophecy, if it’s an actual prophecy is a vision of things that are fated to happen. Making up some crap and putting out a fake prophecy to meet your own goals is something that could happen, sure, but I’ve never seen that as a legit representation of what Glint did.
Glint didn’t just leave there so everything is going to happen on its own. She was keep intervening and manipulating us to make it happen, why does she bother to do it if it’s going to happen any way?
If she never gave any prophecy, tell me, why would the Mursaat go to defend the seal and if she had told us the truth of the Lich, how could it still happen?
The Lich was after the Scepter of Orr because of the Prophecy, it was given out long ago. WIthout it the Mursaat wouldn’t even bother to guard the door.
It’s a prophecy for a reason, though. Saying that the prophecy caused it is simplifying the complex business of prophecies.
You’re basically saying that because of the prophecy the Mursaat killed themselves by trying to go against the prophecies which is exactly what the prophecies said would happen, which means they set in motion their own demise if only they listened to the prophecies.
Simply said, those mursaat are pretty stupid then.
Because they didn’t know the details, they were deceived like us, and at the same time Glint was using us to fulfill it.
Glint didn’t just give out the prophecy and leave, she was keep manipulating others to do what she wanted them to. She “guided” us to the path of the island, the Mursaat might experienced such thing as well.
The whole prophecy was Glint’s plan, she was manipulating the others to achieve her goal.
This is not Greek myth, we don’t have the three Moirai to settle everyone’s fate. Glint was simply use this prophecy to achieve her goal.
Well, really guys, the gift of prophecy is usually traditionally shown as an unwilling gift. From Cassandra to Jonah to the Pythia, the visions in the story aren’t something they can control, they just come.
No, if Glint tell others about the truth it’s not going to happen the way it did. Glint gave it out to manipulate others to do her work.
Glint, even with her telepathy stuff, probably didn’t think of individual mortals as very important. What she did doesn’t look great as you present it, but we have other information that sets her as selfless and long-seeing. All available information depicts the Mursaat as explicitly selfish and untrustworthy.
Hell, maybe she should take a lot of the blame. It doesn’t change the fact that the Mursaat specifically killed people who were potential threats under false pretenses to keep another threat to them out of the world. They’re good at setting up win-win scenarios, I admit.
Ekhm, Glint also did the same thing – she caused the death of countless innocent beings to take her vengeance on Mursaat. And she is excused for that because you say “she probably thought the few lives were not important”. She is remember as a hero, and mursaat as villains only because she was on our side. and SHE led humans to help the Undead Lich release titans, and in effect bring Nightfall closer to fruition.
The very end of the world Mursaat were trying to prevent, Glint was actively working to bring to life. So the ones trying to stop the fallen god from destroying the planet are bad guys only because they killed a couple of peasants who would die anyway if they didn’t do it. While the one trying to stop the “bad guys” was in fact working to end the whole creation at hands of Abaddon.
In other words again:
- guys killing a few to save themselves and EVERY OTHER LIVING BEING ON THE PLANET are villains
- guys working to help a Lich who works for a god who wants to destroy EVERYTHING are good guys because… they are too stupid to realize they are are being manipulated by a said lich and a dragon.
Morality at it’s finest.
Yeah, Glint manipulated everyone to do it.
So not to intervene and let them all die, is better than save some and kill the rest? The Optimus Mursaat also stated this right after they showed up and Saul answered “Yes my lord.”
The question you have to answer is: Once the mursaat had chosen to intervene, why did ANY of them have to die?
The given explanation is that “they were not worthy of seeing us” – however, I would regard a being that would kill an ally simply for the “crime” of beholding them as Evil, unless they have a very good reason for wanting to maintain secrecy… and I don’t see that being the case here. The mursaat were quite happy to take the credit afterwards, so it’s not that they were trying to hide their involvement.
If you talk to the squad members beforehand, too, you’ll get the sense that it’s the ones that got killed at the end that genuinely care about Kryta. Saul probably has a much better understanding of the personality of his followers – part of his shock was probably not just that the mursaat decided that some of them were unworthy, but that the ones they deemed as unworthy were actually the most virtuous – and thus, their criteria for worthiness was not what Saul had believed it to be.
So it’s better to let them all die?
I won’t say it’s the right thing to do, but compare to Charr in GW that was nothing.
Wait, weren’t they unseen ones? How come all of them were able to see them?
(edited by Slowpokeking.8720)
Call me a traditionalist, but prophesizing something does not equal setting something in motion. The Lich was already after the Scepter of Orr, who’s to say an army of undead wouldn’t have killed all the mursaat if he had gotten it at some point?
I find it incredibly short-sighted for such a powerful race to simply kill everyone who could be a potential threat because of some silly prophecy. Protecting the door of Komalie, sure understandable. Not explaining anything? That was pretty dumb.
The Lich was after the Scepter of Orr because of the Prophecy, it was given out long ago. WIthout it the Mursaat wouldn’t even bother to guard the door.
but since 250 no one killed people to power up souls batteries and that compared with fact that after khilbron there is nothing mentioning about anyone even trying to open that doors I think we can quite safely asssume that the doors of komalie di not required those souls batteries to keep being shut – mursaat could have keep their stronghold ontop of those doors to prevent any servant of abaddon to enter the are to oen the door but instead they still tried to trick with soul batteries… which was their doom.
Also I think it was quite literaly stated later in nightfall that lich was servant of abaddon… well abaddon wanted those doors opened no matter if some dragon servant made any prophecy about it or not.
It did, the door was open because you released the souls. Maybe due to Abaddon’s moves that weakened the seal.
The Lich wanted to rule Tyria, without the Prophecy he wouldn’t have known that he needed the scepter of Orr to control the Titans and send them to different places.
Genocidal war is probably legitimately worse than treacherous ‘death by 1000 cuts’, but the Charr at least come off as more trustworthy. The charr might try to kill you, but they probably won’t talk about how they’re helping keep you safe while poisoning your wine.
Why should we trust butchers? Just because we share a powerful common enemy? Then it is the same with Mursaat.
Also, don’t judge a whole race as the same, we know humans and humans could be very different, same with Charr and Mursaat. The Charr even has a whole legion made of spies and assassins, you really believe these individuals won’t lie to you when they want to kill you? That’s funny.
Considering what is stated later, I’m pretty sure that what Saul meant was that the Unseen would decide whether they live or die by choosing whether to intervene or not… rather than intervening and then killing half the group themselves.
Regarding the Krytan leadership thing: The point I’m making is that all Kryta needed was a strong leader to step up. With some cosmetic assistance from the Mursaat, Saul became that leader. However, if Saul hadn’t stepped up, it’s likely that someone else would have – Evennia, say, or one of the Lionguard commanders, or any one of a number of characters who potentially have the authority and/or charisma to do so in the king’s absence..
So not to intervene and let them all die, is better than save some and kill the rest? The Optimus Mursaat also stated this right after they showed up and Saul answered “Yes my lord.”
No, they were clearly stated as: Weakened, Divided, Beaten, Outnumbered before Saul had come in. They didn’t have enough troops, nor were they strong enough to fight the Charr. It has been stated very clearly, no, there was no hope, even Saul would have failed if the Mursaat hadn’t helped.
Glint, even with her telepathy stuff, probably didn’t think of individual mortals as very important. What she did doesn’t look great as you present it, but we have other information that sets her as selfless and long-seeing. All available information depicts the Mursaat as explicitly selfish and untrustworthy.
Hell, maybe she should take a lot of the blame. It doesn’t change the fact that the Mursaat specifically killed people who were potential threats under false pretenses to keep another threat to them out of the world. They’re good at setting up win-win scenarios, I admit.
I don’t think it’s nice, but it doesn’t make them THAT worse, not worse than the Charr.
The Mursaat instead wanted it as a toy or tool. Your comparing a Slaver to a murderer. One kills you and the other robs you of your freedom and rights. Human life had no value to the Mursaat save as a resource to use. I don’t consider that much better myself.
Charr enslave humans as well, they torture their slaves to death if you play Gwen’s story. Also they don’t firstly save the whole nation.
First, we don’t know that the killed him. They just ‘disappeared’ him.
More importantly… the mission tells us. After the mursaat killed most of his squad, Saul realised that the mursaat were actually monsters. The mursaat sensed this realisation that meant that Saul would no longer serve their purposes, but they couldn’t claim that he wasn’t worthy after having previously made him their chosen, so they teleported him away instead.
Saul asked them for help and made it clear
Saul D’Alessio: “Friends, the time of retribution is at hand. We must pray to our gods. They will decide whether we live or die.”
So? All the king running away meant was that they needed someone to rally their armies. Saul did that, with no evidence of direct help from the mursaat apart from dressing him in fine enough clothes to convince Krytans to follow him and that final mission.
All it took was someone to step into the place the king had abandoned, rally the Krytan defenses, and fight back. If it wasn’t Saul, odds are someone else would have taken up the mantle. There would have been more damage done, but I think Kryta would have survived.
And that was with the bulk of the charr army having gone to Orr – the reason why Ascalon survived as long as it did was that the army went on to Orr rather than sticking around to mop up. We don’t know how large the charr army in Kryta was… but it was probably much smaller than the armies that hit their primary objectives. And, like I said, there’s no evidence that the army that went to Kryta had Searing capability.
Saul’s small force was no match for the portion of the charr army that was encamped near their leadership there, but Saul’s group did not represent even close to the entirety of Kryta’s potential armed forces.
“The Unseen Ones were radiant beings: tall, thin, and winged, both superior and kind to man. They healed Saul in body and soul, giving him wisdom and understanding. Saul returned to Kryta reborn, a messenger of hope. "
This was the change, before that he would never have such ability to rally the people.
As for “entire army force” From the game manual:
Beaten, outnumbered, leaderless, and facing almost
certain death, the people of Kryta looked to Saul to
lead them out of their darkest hour.
The people of Kryta were facing “certain death” before Saul had shown up.
“As Ascalon burned, the Charr invaded the nation of Kryta. Their army marched through the Far Shiverpeaks and fell upon Kryta like lions upon a kill. Already weakened and divided, the Krytans were easy prey.”
" Abandoned by their leaders, betrayed by their countrymen, hungry and worn, the people of Kryta flocked to Saul’s banner and rallied to his cause.
Saul and his followers saved desperate and defenseless Krytans from the Charr, but there were too many invaders, and Saul’s disciples were too few.
Hope remained, but it was hope that required an ultimate sacrifice. "
I’m sorry but the canon info doesn’t match with your guess. Kryta was hopeless before Saul showed up.
(edited by Slowpokeking.8720)
If I remember correctly, the door was opened, the titans came, and the world didn’t end. It’s been 250 years, since any chosen were sacrificed and the world is still here. The sacrifices served no purpose.
Also, if the cause was so honorable, why didn’t they just ask for volunteers. Arlington National cemetery is filled with people that sacrificed themselves voluntarily. These people were given no choice, they were lied to and their lives were needlessly stolen from them. The mursaat are beyond evil and can’t be trusted.
Because we had it closed fast enough, even though
“The Foundry of Failed Creation is not merely a prison camp. It also acts as a staging area for an attack on the mortal plane. The Fury and his minions await the opening of the Door of Komalie, a gateway that leads from here into Tyria. Some years ago a powerful lich…another powerful minion of Abaddon…opened a gateway. It only remained open a brief time, but countless souls were sent through to become titans. Fortunately, for reasons unknown to me, the Door of Komalie was closed almost immediately.”
Why would people listen to some “aliens” to have them directly killed?
Also remember, Glint was behind the prophecy, without it the Mursaat and the Lich wouldn’t have done such thing.
It’s an interesting philosophical question which the Queen might regard as having done more damage. The charr did more damage to Tyrian humanity as a whole by far, but when it comes to Kryta specifically… that’s a little more questionable. We don’t have any exact figures on who has died in the Krytan civil was as opposed to the charr attack on Kryta, and most of the human-charr wars since have taken place in Ascalon, without any effect on Kryta except for the deaths of people sent there. Meanwhile, from the Shining Blade’s perspective, White Mantle meddling has almost certainly done much more direct damage to Kryta than anything the charr have done.
There’s also the element that the charr never made any bones about their position regarding humans – they were always at war, the only surprise was that the charr had been losing for over a thousand years until they found something to turn that around. So when the charr decide it’s worth being friendly instead, it’s worth trying a ‘trust, but verify’ approach. The mursaat, on the other hand, have a track record of being frenemies.
Charr didn’t do huge damage to humanity because, the Mursaat defeated them and saved Kryta. The Mursaat didn’t want to destroy Kryta, the Charr wanted to.
It was fuel that also very conveniently destroyed people they viewed as a threat. How handy is that?!
I won’t call that nice, but it didn’t really cause more death. And remember, they saved all people of Kryta, then killed a few to power the seal.
What do you think of Glint? She KNEW what’s going to happen, but still gave out the prophecy to let Mursaat carry out their plan, to let the Lich Lord control Titans, she KNEW what was behind the door but still let you open it, which resulted many people’s death since many Titans went through the portal.
It’s never good to lie, deceive and kill innocents. It’s always evil.
Glint didn’t sacrifice innocents. Mursaat did.
Then they should let the Titans run wild and kill everything, leave a door of Realm of Torment open?
Glint didn’t sacrifice innocents directly, but she manipulated others to do so.
Rather than blame the Mursaat or others, shouldn’t Glint take the major blame?
It was her prophecy which let the Mursaat to kill the Chosen, it was her prophecy which let Vizier Khilbron know what to do to control the Titans. She knew what was going on but chose to keep the mystery until the end, she was manipulating others to fulfill her destiny.
(edited by Slowpokeking.8720)
@TheBlackLeech – I don’t think they are evil because they opposed the player in GW1. I think they are evil because they sacrificed innocents to further their goals. They used lies and deception to obtain these innocents. They aren’t nice folks.
If they didn’t, the Titans would have ran out and we are all gonna die.
at risk of being really meta, why is this position so important to you leech?
It’s pretty clear that the Mursaat were supposed to be some of the main villains in Prophecies.
To me, Prophecies really didn’t paint them as “bad guys”. Rather, they showed them as all forms – first as “Unseen Gods” while with the White Mantle, next as “evil controlling murderers” while with the Shining Blade, then finally revealed as “a race doing what they must to protect themselves and, ultimately, protect Tyria as a whole (from the titans)”.
At the very least, you were shown both sides, the good and the bad, then left to decide whether their actions were just or unjust when their intentions and the results of their actions were revealed.
They also saved Kryta from the Charr.
at risk of being really meta, why is this position so important to you leech?
It’s pretty clear that the Mursaat were supposed to be some of the main villains in Prophecies.
Still, the PC think they are “trying to protect the world” after learning the truth.
and the last fight made it pretty clear, with the pact wiped we’re going to need the intel and help. Trahearne had 20 years to study Zhaitan, there’s not time for that with Mordy.
Yes, the Mursaat also have a lot of knowledge on magic.
I think they’d make interesting ‘allies’ storywise for a few reasons:
1) Their offensive power is undeniable, spectral agony sucks
2) They know more than anyone about the dragons, meguuma, and magic.Point 2 is especially important, all the other races from the prior time are gone or hopelessly devolved. The Mursaat were active and powerful as late as 250 years ago with their entire culture and history intact. They’d be extremely useful as allies.
~~~
They’d also be extremely problematic and troubling as allies. Their history with the WM and humans is very dark, and their most notable racial trait is ‘self-serving traitors’. The thing is, this dichotomy makes for a pretty good story. Getting what you can from the Mursaat while at the same time trying to keep them from getting you in a position where they can hurt you too badly when they stab you in the back is interesting and dramatic.
Them being untrustworthy and dodgy is what would make them interesting as allies.
To be fair, the history between Mursaat and humans weren’t that dark compare to Charr and humans.
s.
Regarding the rest:As you may have noticed, the question of whether killing others to help yourself is a neutral or evil act is a highly controversial moral question. Personally, I consider it to be evil. At the risk of Godwinning the thread, looking to wipe out every member of the population with a certain characteristic because you believe they might pose a threat to you was an action that historically led to the leaders that did so being declared as the worst of villains in human history.
It depend on the situation.
Well if they don’t do that, the seal would have been broken and the Titan would come out, it’s like they would spare Kryta right? It’s more of a “sacrifice a few to save the whole” situation.
This is completely wrong. I’ve just reviewed the Rise of the White Mantle mission, and:
1) Kryta was definitely NOT at peace at the time. The mission starts with defending a village that was under attack by the charr.
2) There is no indication that the mursaat disapproved of the plan to assassinate the charr leaders. In fact, if anything, it seems that this is the only time that the mursaat actually played a direct part in fighting against the charr – forming the White Mantle, rallying the people of Kryta, and keeping the charr at bay up to that point was all Saul’s doing with no direct assistance from the mursaat.
Regarding the rest:
As you may have noticed, the question of whether killing others to help yourself is a neutral or evil act is a highly controversial moral question. Personally, I consider it to be evil. At the risk of Godwinning the thread, looking to wipe out every member of the population with a certain characteristic because you believe they might pose a threat to you was an action that historically led to the leaders that did so being declared as the worst of villains in human history.
Arguably the mursaat had better reason to believe the Chosen were a threat, but… as people noted above, it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. If the mursaat had done nothing, they would not have triggered the conditions under which the Prophecies had occurred. They did also make for complex villains – they did, for instance, have enough scruple not to simply let the charr destroy Kryta (although they may have realised that the charr army that went to Kryta did not actually have the strength to defeat Kryta once Kryta got organised – Saul accelerated the organisation but if he hadn’t done it likely someone else would have stepped up, and while that delay would have allowed the charr to push further, at the time most of the important sites in Kryta were further south… and there’s no evidence that the Krytan charr army had Cauldrons. Its purpose seemed mainly as a diversion to prevent Kryta from sending aid to Ascalon or Orr).
However, somebody with a less ruthless attitude to the lives of others would have sought another way. Consider, if the promise to train the Chosen in magic had not been a lie, the mursaat could have turned those Chosen that they were able to find into allies, and may have avoided the scenario where a group of Chosen slipped under their radar, discovered the sacrifices, and went on the warpath.
You certainly can’t say the White Mantle were bad while the mursaat were good. The Mantle was following, directly or indirectly, the mandate of the mursaat – while “following orders” is not regarded as an excuse, culpability is also held by those who gave the orders.
Are you still arguing that Kryta could defend themselves from the Charr when their king already ran away?
The Charr already defeated Orr without any cauldron, even without Cataclysm, Orr would have been wiped out. How is Kryta haveing any chances? We saw even with Saul’s effort, they are still no match for the Charr if the Mursaat hadn’t shown up.
Saul D’Alessio: “Friends, the time of retribution is at hand. We must pray to our gods. They will decide whether we live or die.”
Also, it was Saul who asked for help and said they will decide the fate.
The problem is that they need these souls to power the battery to keep the seal, otherwise the Titan would run out.
If the Mursaat become our allies, we should make sure to always have them in front of us. I’m not expecting those guys to have my back. No reason to give them an easy chance for their backstabing. But as the pc we will have to walk in front, don’t we? :/
But of the 5 races, only 2 have direct Reasons to mistrust them. The Humans (White Mantle and co.) and the Charr (they lost a whole army to them). The rest doesn’t have any history with them, so they could get tricked.
Or it will be like GW1. Look, those are our allies! Oh, now that you know the truth, we turn on you and try to kill you! Ah, good times.
The Musaat caused much less harm to the humans compare to the Charr.
What the heck is this? Enchanted were not casters, nor do they have wings.
It’s totally unnecessary to make such wild round guess, they are Mursaat, simple.
Yes. Those spirits you fought after destroying the soul batteries were once Chosen, just like you. But time and their imprisonment has changed many of them. But not all of us were transformed into those hideous things. Some of us remained good and pure of heart. And we are grateful to be free, but thanks to Vizier Khilbron’s treachery, our release came with a price… the release of the Titans.
Worse than evil, they’re STUPID. Why were they killing innocents? To lock the Door of Komalie so no one could open it. Why did we unlock the Door of Komalie, allowing the Lich to open it? Because they were killing innocents! Our only reason for being in the Ring of Fire or going through Ascension was stopping the slaughter. If the mursaat had just quietly mounted a guard to warn people away, we would never have even heard of the place, much less gone there.
The mursaat (not to mention Khilbron) basically fell for Glint’s bait, making the Flameseeker Prophecies a self-fulfilling prophecy. If they hadn’t known the prophecy, they never would have carried it out. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
I do hope we get an answer, though, to the question of just why the titans had such a beef with the mursaat. Yes, titans were a danger to everyone, but there seemed to be something personal in the way they hunted down mursaat in particular. We know that titans were made in the Foundry from tortured souls. Were they created from the souls of a race that was wronged and killed by the mursaat long before? Seers, perhaps?
I also wonder how much we will learn about these so-called “bandits” who have a militaristic organization, a strong presence in the Maguuma, and secret installations in Queensdale and Harathi Hinterlands displaying the symbol of the White Mantle. How did they become involved with the Nightmare Court and the Inquest? Are they still working for or with the mursaat?
No, the door require “battery”, the souls to shut down, which is why they are killing Chosen.
As other lore related discussions have taught us, the most obvious answer is usually the right one with Arenanet, and minor points that show the obvious answer to be wrong don’t usually work out.
To me they already made this very clear: They are Mursaat.
So you’re willing to give your life so someone else can be more powerful. Good to know, what’s your address?
Really, the Mursaat are EVIL. They maintained control by sacrificing innocents. The invaded Lion’s Arch for the purpose of killing Queen Selma. The White Mantle hunted down members of the Shining Blade.
How will we be able to be allies of the Mursaat if we are not ascended? We won’t even know they’re there.
The Chosen were killed to seal of the Door, that’s protecting the world.
Well the Charr were responsible for destroying 2 human kingdoms, killing countless innocents and almost destroyed Kryta, we still ally with them.
Those obviously are Mursaat.
Primarily, I want to know why they glow colors now. Beyond that… everything? Religion, culture, government, and history are going to be my primary interests, in roughly that order. If we get a new written language for them, that would also be a nice bonus! I also want them to not be whitewashed, a la charr. I know a couple people have been bouncing around the idea that the ones we fought weren’t representative of the race as a whole, or that they might have changed since then, but I’ve been wanting a grayer alliance of convenience for a long time now, and I actually guessed early in Season 2 that the White Mantle might be our opportunity to have that. Going over their heads and dealing directly with their masters would be just as good.
Probably it was the whole race’s decision to save then rule Kryta and keep the seal on the Door. But a few decisions such as kill Saul’s men might be a few individual’s decision.
Seriously, the Charr caused humanity much more harm than the Mursaat.
Indirectly destroyed Orr. If Catalysm wasn’t cast, Orr would still be destroyed by them.
Caused the Searing and killed many innocents in Ascalon, they continued to siege the city for decades.
Invaded Kryta, if it wasn’t the Mursaat, Kryta would have been gone as well.
I can’t understand why Queen Jenna and Anise would agree to considering the Mursaat as allies. They have bad history with them.
They saved Kryta from the charr, when Jenna’s ancestor abandoned his people?
What do you expect to see them in the new expansion? I hope to know their history, culture and technology more. Perhaps more of them already decided to give up their plan on the humans after the door was sealed in the end of Prophecies.
In 2:47 of the trailer, could that Mursaat be Lazarus? He looks a bit green.
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I’d call the Mursaat more than bullies. However I agree that I can see a scenario where they are allies of convenience. My concern is how it is presented and how that reflects on humans. Humanity has kind of been presented in a rather underwhelming and rather lame fashion in GW2. Their lore usually involves taking hits or being shown how far they have fallen. I don’t like the idea of a scenario where people are inclined to sympathise with the Mursaat because it will make humanity look bad and its been made to look bad enough.
Ok I got your point, let’s keep the different opinions of the Mursaat’s doing in GW1.
Well, underplaying the humans were common when other new races were introduced, especially in GW because before EotN, the plot was pretty much about humans, the charr were mostly villains, only a few individuals were allies.
I don’t think the Mursaat will make humans look bad, as long as they don’t do the same thing in GW1 anymore. I’m very interested in them and want to know more about this race and the Seer if possible.
One possibility here is that we might be seeing Primordus dragons. Could be that we’ve found the species that was the template for the four-legged dragon champions, though (as opposed to wyvern-like Canthan dragons).
That’s quite possible.
1. There actions were entirely self interest, not greater good. If they did a greater good it was purely coincidental. They have abandoned everyone else to die when they felt safe doing so. They did during the last rise of the EDs. If it was just for greater good why did the not just up and leave as soon as the titan threat was resolved? Why did they continue to try and oppress humanity and prop themselves up as false gods?
It doesn’t matter, they help saved humanity. No matter their goal is noble or not, the humans own them a great favor when the Five Gods chose to do nothing, when the king of Kryta chose to abandon his people and run away. Nobody blamed the gods or the kings but the Mursaat simply because their goal wasn’t noble? So if they chose to do nothing like the Five Gods they wouldn’t be blamed for? But then we probably wouldn’t even be able to play humans in GW2 because all three kingdoms were destroyed.
Even the PC character, who had fought them throughout the story, said
I did what everyone asked of me. I opened the Door of Komalie but to my dismay I learned that the door held back the evil titans and the Mursaat were actually attempting to protect the world from their wrath.
2. As I said:
" Being protected by a psychopathic murderer doesn’t make them less of a psychopathic murderer and doesn’t excuse them torturing and killing your people as the ‘price’, especially when the only reason they are doing it is to protect themselves. "
I don’t think they should be called psychopathic murderers, they didn’t enjoy kill, it’s not their goal. They never planned to kill everyone as well, most of their murders-the Chosen, were killed to prevent the world being ravaged by the Titans, or worse, Abaddon.
Even if we look at the killing of Saul’s buddies
Saul D’Alessio: “Friends, the time of retribution is at hand. We must pray to our gods. They will decide whether we live or die.”
Saul chose to call them and let them decide the fate of his men, also they would all be killed if the Mursaat hadn’t helped.
Again, its contextually like having the Charr having to ally with the Titans. My primary issue isn’t the Mursaat themselves but how this reflects on humanity who the Mursaat are a major plot part of. Literally the first 20 levels of the PS is tied to the Bandits, therefore the White Mantle, therefore the Mursaat.
3. While this is true there was plenty of lead in and support lore wise to allow for the change of position for the Charr. As recent as the last couple of Living World updates we see the White Mantle still portrayed in a very negative light which reflects on the Mursaat. In addition everything shown in GW2 about the Mursaat only reinforces the negative view of the Mursaat we got in GW1.
I never played that PS line so I can’t say much.
White Mantle are bullies, but it doesn’t mean they couldn’t be allies, and they don’t represent the Mursaat. I also pointed the difference between the Mursaat and the Titans already.
I do see an irony in after all the Charr’s talk of contempt of false gods, chosing to ally with a group of them.
The Charr didn’t sack human kingdoms because of the Titans, the Titans just gave them the power to do so.
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I like the Musaat in GW1 a lot because they made the Prophecies story not purely black/white. They did both good and bad through a not noble but realistic purpose.
We know very little about the Mursaat except that they have screwed over every ally they have ever had and their minions are to this day making a wreck of Kryta.
Your very forgiving of the Mursaat. What they were doing doesn’t make any of the things they did any less self serving and ruthless. Being protected by a psychopathic murderer doesn’t make them less of a psychopathic murderer and doesn’t excuse them torturing and killing your people as the ‘price’, especially when the only reason they are doing it is to protect themselves. Note, that price includes the mess Kryta is in right now as the White Mantle is still a major threat.
Humanity as been seen at least to show some respect and compassion for other races. The Mursaat never have.
They did save the majority of Krytan’s lives, this was a GREAT contribution to humanity when Ascalon was hopeless to save and Orr was completely destroyed, that was humanity’s worst time. Even some of their crimes were for a “greater good”, it’s not like the Titans would only kill them but spare the humans. If the Door was not sealed, not just more Titans would have come out, but their master Abaddon might be freed earlier.
Their methods were cruel but their goal was not destruction, that is a major difference between the Musaat and most of the other villains. It’s their mean, not their end, thus they could be allies, just not friends. And I’m not talking about GW humans, but real life humans.
Remember the Charr were 100% villains before Nightfall and caused much more harm than the Musaat against humanity, now they are humans’ allies and a playable race.
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The thing with the Mursaat bothers me and not only cause they were great villains and everything we have learned about them so far suggests they were a selfish and ruthless race. Even saving Kryta was entirely for the sake of self preservation. Do remember they slaughtered almost the entire human army as well after they had won the victory over the Charr.
The core reason relates to humans and more specifically the issues with the White Mantle. The White Mantle/Bandits are effectively the Inquest or Flame Legion of the human race. The Mursaat were the patrons and leaders of that cult. The last one we knew about swore vengeance on the humans. They are one of the core reasons humanity has been on the decline for so kitten long.
Having the Mursaat as allies without one hell of a good build up and explanation is kind of like having Charr ally with Titans. My biggest concern is its going to end up at the determent of the humans who as a playable race have kind of gotten the short end of the stick in lore already in GW2. For most players, particularly those who haven’t played GW1, making the Mursaat sympathetic will make the humans, who see the Mursaat staunchly as enemies, look bad regardless of the reality of their history.
The Titans were Abaddon’s minions, they want to take revenge on the mortals and make the world suffer.
Mursaat is very different, they mostly want to avoid the prophecy and survive, and they did help the humans with a price and help guard the world. They aren’t much different than humans, just they thought they are “higher beings” towards the humans.
So those crystals in the Pale Tree vision actually means Mursaat’s Jade?
Could Saul D’Alessio still be alive?
What about the possibility that the Mursaat that we know from GW1 were just a splinter group of the race, like flame legion are to the charr…?
I don’t think the GW1 Mursaat are pure evil, they just are selfish and think humans are lesser races for them to use. However, they still saved Kryta and help to keep seal of the Titans. They didn’t want to destroy the world or kill other beings, so when there are major threats like Mordremoth, it’s very logical that we could work with them.