Guild Wars 2

Squee.7829:

They cleansed the source of corruption. I wasn’t referring to that though. I meant they didn’t send in any force to just exterminate all the risen. They just came in, killled Zhaitan and cleared whatever was in between them. And like someone said earlier, it’s not uncommon for someone to shout the name of a fallen hero. But I think the more likely explanation is that they’re not really sure Zhaitan is dead. They probably aren’t all that intelligent and just go on acting as they were programmed as if Zhaitan was still around.

They didn’t need to kill all Risen, but I don’t think they would let powerful and intelligent Risen Champion that could command armies stay just there rather than kill it as well.

The priest of Lyssa even tricked you.

Squee.7829:

Most maybe. But there are still some kicking about. The pact didn’t cleanse Orr of Risen. And like in Starcraft, I imagine that once ALL control is gone (all generals, etc.) the zombies will still exist, just be useless and stupid.

They did cleanse the Source, if there were powerful Risen Champion left, it could be corrupted again.

I think, too, but I don’t get why the Risen priests would keep yelling about serve Zhaitan.

Squee.7829:

I always figured it was like a Starcraft Zerg kind of thing. There’s a single brain (Overmind/Zhaitan) that has to control essentially a billion little body parts (minions), but even the largest network of neurons and whatnot would have a pretty hard time controlling every small piece. It’d be like us having to monitor and fully control every hair follicle on our body. So the “brain” (overmind/Zhaitan) has to delegate tasks through smaller less independent brains (Which at this point, the server analogy Konig used would be better) In Starcraft, the overmind spread control over its massive sprawling armies through use of cerebrates. Big maggot looking things that had no purpose other than to receive orders from the overmind, and carry them out efficiently using the little zergs.
The cerebrates had autonomy, to a point. They can act and react to situations as they see fit (in case of surprise attacks or disconnection from the main brain or server, you need to be able to defend yourself and your assets), but their only caveat was they couldn’t override orders from the Overmind. I think the post Arah undead may be similar. The main brain (server) is dead, but the mostly autonomous sub-brains are still around to give orders.

As for Zhaitan being “uploaded” to Tequatl, that’s a theory I’ve never heard before, and it seems pretty neat, but I also like the idea that since Zhaitan died, Tequatl simply lost the one thing that prevented him from being completely autonomous and can now act more efficiently in the here and now and defend itself, rather than “wait and see whats best for the hive”. Both theories provide a logical reason to why Tequatl is stronger now.

Didn’t most of the champions got killed? If there were any left and commanding the Risen, the Pact surely would clear them before they left.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Technically, the “massive army” doesn’t follow its order.

Most minions are mindless wanderers who just act how they act and will kill anything that isn’t a minion that it sees.

The champions are said, however, to interpret Zhaitan’s will and then organize the lesser minions (the term “bully” was used). So it isn’t that the “massive army” is following Zhaitan’s orders, but the champions are and the massive army are merely following the champions’ orders.

As to the original question, I would argue that it’s likely that the way that dragon corruption brainwashing works is that rather than instilling a continuous connection between dragon and minion, it creates an imprint of the dragon’s desires and will into the minions. Thus the minions know what Zhaitan wants and demands, but only those which have thought, e.g., the champions, are able to act upon such (whereas the rest is just a general ‘serve Zhaitan, feed Zhaitan, provide Zhaitan’ mentality without actually actively doing such).

They are mindless themselves but they follow the dragon’s order. The dragon control them through the champions.

Not necessarily. There are two types of “massive hiveminds” in literature:

• Those which have a core, which you speak of. In such cases, there’s really only one mind, and the original body (in this case, Zhaitan) houses the mind itself – the other bodies are just extensions. Here, the core functions like a server connecting to other devices and controlling said other devices. In this situation, destroy the core and the rest becomes inopt – this is the most common form of hiveminds used in literature just because that provides a direct way to end the threat in the plot.
• The other is where the mind is in all bodies; there is no core, no ‘server.’ If you kill what appears to be the main body, the rest still function and all you really did was kill the strongest body.

The only collapsing we see happening is when champions are killed, making them “subservers” so to speak. But here’s a question: What if the Elder Dragon is just a more powerful subserver for the hivemind that is the dragon’s corruption? Alternatively, what if the Elder Dragon can transfer its essence into a subserver?

But as Aaron said, it’s all speculation at this point due to the sheer lack of information – what Anet passes as “mystery” nowadays (well, okay, this piece is done well for a mystery).

The dragon is a core, after its death the Risen became a much less threat.

Leo G.4501:

Have we established that you can kill a dragon? Even if Zhaitan’s body is destroyed, does that force then cease existance? Can they somehow continue existance though just sheer magic? It’s not completely unheard of for a Lich to live on after its body is destroyed through a mere phylactery and reform his body later or craft a form from something else.

If any Dragon were capable of such, Zhaitan would be that one. We may have destroyed his body and purified the kingdom he held, but the dragons’ reach might go beyond the physical plane. We might have only ‘turned Zhaitan off’ for now.

It’s not about cease existence, it’s about shouldn’t the Risen lose organization after their master was dead?

Because there weren’t so many places to hide, the Pact would also find dragons fly across and hunt them down.

Teq wasn’t in Arah, it was in the coast before Zhaitan’s death.

They are big dragons they would need magic to feed upon without their master. It’s not easy to hide.

The Pact later went into Arah.

It’s possible that a few dragons escaped, but I don’t believe the majority of them did, otherwise the Pact would have to work on them before they could move to the next dragon.

Escaped to where? They have no place to hide.

But it’s not like the fight stopped, the airships were still fighting them so they couldn’t aid Zhaitan. Most likely they were took down in that battle.

BTW how many champions were still alive after Zhaitan’s fall? Most of the eyes were killed, mouths were killed, no other dragons were known other than Teq. Not sure about undead captains.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I guess my question for you, Slowpoke, is whether you’d still consider the risen to be organized. Keeping in mind that the only risen we fight that are canonically post-Zhaitan are the ones in Arah explorable (and arguably Teq and his mob) I don’t see much evidence of large-scale coordination. At best we see a cluster of lesser risen following the orders of a more powerful one, but these groups aren’t seen to co-ordinate with each other or to put much thought to goals outside Arah. Like I suggested above, the easiest explanation from the stance you’ve taken is that they’re continuing to carry out their last orders.

Sure but the priests were in Arah, why did they still believe Zhaitan was alive?

Aaron Ansari.1604:

The issue is we don’t know how much micromanaging Zhaitan actually did. In my time on this forum I’ve heard theories ranging from a massive hive mind personally directing every corrupted being to a beast who just lounges and eats with no thought for tactics or what’s going on beyond its borders, leaving such things to its generals. Either extreme has as much proof as the other, and none of the middle ground stands out as being particularly more likely either. Until we have more evidence to work off- hopefully with Mordremoth, but possibly still years in the future- the extent and nature of the mental connection is going to come down to which pet theory you decide to champion. It seems like you’ve made up your mind that the dragon champions received frequent updates on what Zhaitan wanted, and yes, in that case it’s a little baffling they don’t notice the absence. My best suggestion from that point of view is to assume that they’re instructed/‘programmed’ to follow standing orders until new ones override them, however long that might be.

At least the grand direction obviously was given by the dragon. If it’s a massive hivemind, then it should have collapsed when its core was gone, I don’t see why are they still so organized.

We can see from other dragons.
Mordremoth obviously directly command the Modrem through a hive mind structure. The Sylvari got controlled when came too close to it.
Jormag and the icebrood share a telepathic link, even if its champion’s connection went off the icebrood would attack it. Dragonspawn’s mind affecting power also came from Jormag directly.
Primordus’ Destroyers also follow a hive mind pattern, before the dragon awoke, they all obey to the Great Destroyer and collapse when it was killed.

Leo G.4501:

Maybe it doesn’t work the other way around? Sure, Zhaitan might feel a champion going down but is there evidence that they sense Zhaitan’s intentions independently of Zhaitan’s will?

I don’t see how could such a massive army follow its order if they couldn’t even feel Zhaitan’s existence through the connection. At least the champions much have a connection with it to spread the will.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Well, the clear answer is that they don’t know that Zhaitan’s dead. Whatever the nature of the link between minions and dragon was, it was apparently such that the servants can’t tell it was severed.

Nearly every time a champion dies, Zhaitan could feel it, even when it was thousands miles away, like Captain Whitning.

Zhaitan is dead, they don’t have anyone to serve anymore. Also why did the Risen priests think Zhaitan is alive?

Easy ones:

Dwarf-Primordus They fought the Great Destroyer before.
Jotun-Jormag
Forgotten-Kralkatorrik Glint was related to them
Mursaat-Mordremoth HotT
So
Seer-Zhaitan? But we don’t see much influence of them in the war against Zhaitan. Or DSD?

lordkrall.7241:

Slowpokeking.8720:

The source was cleansed, surely we were nothing compare to it.

Except that it can go back and corrupt the source at any time.
Why not just finish off the annoying ants attacking it before doing it?

Because the ants could be smashed any time, but the Source means more to it?

It’s like Shiro Tagachi wanted to restore his mortal form then fight the players.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

While we’re kicking down the door to it’s lair? Just abandon an urgent and pressing event to go do something it could do anytime?

The source was cleansed, surely we were nothing compare to it.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Having Zhaitan run away is not going to make him more menacing. Actually, I can’t think of any GW1 boss that moved away from us. (Maybe Khilbron, but he legitimately had more important things to do. Zhaitan, not so much.) Besides, the GW1 format made use of outposts- the closest equivalent in GW2’s structure would be waypoints. Sitting around on the airship between dragons, patching armor at the anvil? That’s the GW1 format at work.

It doesn’t have to fly away to escape, but went to corrupt the Source again so we could go fight it there.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

The problem would then be a story concern- explaining why you’re retreating from the final battle to whatever safe place. The way the entire sequence of events is framed would have to be changed.

But, now that I understand your point better, to circle back to your original plea to see these changes in the upcoming patch- it’s not going to happen, unfortunately. To quote Bobby Stein: " Please note that the core gameplay and structure of this story instance has not been changed". This would fall under structure.

Not retreating, they could let Zhaitan fly to another location and let us catch it up. Have you played GW1 before? Such format makes a lot of sense.

I think it’s the best chance to revamp the fight, if they don’t do it then that’s going to be it.

BobbyStein.2315:

Cakemeister.5792:

I’m not sure if this was posted on March 31 or on April 1. This whole thread might be a hoax.

It’s not a hoax. These changes are definitely real and we’ll announce a specific release date sometime in the near future.

Will you guys revamp the disappointing Zhaitan fight since this is the best chance to do it?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You fail to realize that it wouldn’t make Zhaitan any more menacing than he currently is unless you change the Zhaitan encounter itself.

Why fight another Mouth? Because it’s a new Mouth. Because you need to secure that landing space for ground troops (presumably if the rumors I’ve heard that there was a ground battle after the tower intended, the ground troops would come into play here) and destroy the anti-aircraft towers descimating the fleet from a distance. Why fight the Dragon champions? Because the skies are full of them, as they should be. It would be weird as all he’ll if you just fly through a swarm of dragons without combating any. That’s half the issue with the silly “air drop” excuse for the current reworked PS.

These encounters do not hinder the fight with Zhaitan, just like fighting the Armageddon Lords and Prince Rurik didnter hinder the fight with Khulbron during Hell’s Precipice.

Sure, we fought different champions before, but to use that as an excuse is not proper. I mean, why fight the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan then? We already killed an Eye of Zhaitan before. Why fight Tequatl, we already fought Blightghast. Why fight the Shadow of the Dragon twice/thrice? Just because you fought an enemy type once doesn’t mean you should never encounter that enemy type again – even for bosses. Fighting old bosses is a staple in Capcom games and it works well for them. Something like this works a well here too and like I said, for the dragons it would be weird as he’ll to fly through a swarm of them and not fight any.

The only non-Zhaitan fight that needs to be changed, imho, is the wait between the encounters. It should be a bit more fast paced. And Destiny’s Edge needs to get off their butts and do more once on the airships.

I’m talking about the whole quest/dungeon’s design, if these were all kept, then there would be little space for Zhaitan’s design because it’s a PS/story dungeon, the length and difficulty can’t be too much. This is why those GW1 story final bosses have their own encounter without fighting much minions first. As a powerful Elder Dragon, Zhaitan deserves its own.

What’s the matter of putting these encounters in a previous quest?

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I agree, but taking them out won’t make him any better. You fix the thing that’s broken, not the things that are working.

Taking them out(or put them in a previous quest) is to let Zhaitan to be menacing without making the story quest too long or too difficult. Such format had worked very well in GW1.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

That’s like saying “oh, you killed a risen thrall in your first heart. Whelp, guess there’s no point in seeing another one for the rest of the game, right?” Personally, the lesser dragons were far and away my favorite part of the dungeon- the feeling of vulnerability as these giant things swoop around you as you stand on a platform that’s already gone down once already, the satisfaction as you’re able to go toe-to-toe with them, feeling for the first time that you just might be able to pull this off- at least until Zhaitan showed himself. (That bit about already fighting them before? That’s why we need them here. It took armies to take a single one down every time before. Taking three down with a single crew is what lets you know that the balance has changed.) It was fantastic. The Mouth I’m personally not very fussed about, but it is the most mechanically challenging part of the dungeon, and a whole lot of people like that sort of thing.

They aren’t that important compare to Zhaitan, if possible, separate them into to two campaigns like in GW1.

It’s laughable that they are tougher than Zhaitan.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

No thank you.

The Mouth is the best part of Arah story currently (and the fight is MUCH different than the first fight – either one). And the dragon champions are too rarely fought (aside from those three, only Blightghast and Tequatl).

The other champions from before the airship part are meant to serve as introductions to boss mechanics during the explorable mode, and in all honesty aren’t too hard they need nerf/removal. They’re unique enough challenges to remain, IMHO.

We already fought a Mouth before, what’s the point of putting it here? If Zhaitan had another more powerful Mouth then it would not starve after we killed that one. Dragon Champions also have been fought before.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Wrong forum. Ought to be in the Guild Wars 2 forum, as this is about mechanics not lore.

That said: I want to see the fight change, but just removing minions would make it worse. How do I know? They’ve done that already.

I’d also like to note that Shiro summoned Shiro’ken when he banishedp lacers; Abaddon had Torment Claws and Graven Monoliths, and the Great Destroyer summoned many destroyers. I also much preferred Hell’s Precipice (and Gate of Madness and Destruction’s Depths) over those three.

With Arah becoming a personal story step it is now the one and only personal story step that is of a proper length (imo) and is more than a mere 5 minute instance (well, arguably the Battle of Claw Island and Retribution are of good length, though there is a part in the former that’s too long and Blightghast is a bit too simple of a fight).

I mean remove the previous encounters with the Risen mini bosses, Mouth and dragon champions because we already fought them in previous battles.

Can you also revamp the Zhaitan fight? Remove those minions fight and just let us fight Zhaitan.

Since you mentioned DSD, I wonder was that blue orb that could stop Zhaitan’s corruption actually part of its power?

Glad to hear about the PS restoration. Since you are going to change Victory or Death into a solo mode, can you also change the disappointing Zhaitan encounter to make the dragon more menacing during the battle?

I think some of the minions fight could be removed because we already fought them before Arah, let the fight simply focus on Zhaitan, like those GW1 final campaigns, simply go against Shiro/Abaddon/Great Destroyer.

Glad to hear about the PS restoration. Since you are going to change Victory or Death into a solo mode, can you also change the disappointing Zhaitan encounter to make the dragon more menacing during the battle?

I think some of the minions fight could be removed because we already fought them before Arah, let the fight simply focus on Zhaitan, like those GW1 final campaigns, simply go against Shiro/Abaddon/Great Destroyer.

I couldn’t find taxi on it, and people are not forming a good one even if I get to an early map.

Were they 100% Magic like Plant/Ice/Crystal, or part of them are flesh? The description of Kralkatorrik in the book didn’t seem like it was 100% crystal like the Shatterer.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Had their own thoughts. What I’m saying is that part of the corruption may have removed some of that capacity to think. We don’t know enough about the process yet.

I don’t think it’s the case, otherwise the Sylvari HoT story would be no different than fighting other dragon minions. The egg also hinted that we would try to break them from the dragons’ control.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

It’s an interesting thought, but it’s important to note that it didn’t make the Dragonspawn less hostile. It’d depend, I think, on what Mordremoth is doing to the sylvari- is he just overriding their will, or is he erasing or rewriting parts of their minds? If it’s the latter, just breaking the connection wouldn’t suffice to stop them from fighting for the dragon, and returning them truly to what they had been may well be impossible. The avenue of the link might matter as well- I don’t think Caithe would’ve consented to be tattooed if it cut her off from the Dream, so if that is in fact how Mordremoth is getting to sylvari, the powerstones would probably be useless.

I think they were controlled, since they didn’t grow under the dragon’s influence, each have their own thoughts.

Since grey powerstone could work on the Dragonspawn to break its link with Jormag, could we use such material to free the Sylvari from the grasp of Mordremoth?

Plagiarised.2865:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Plagiarised.2865:

Slowpokeking.8720:

I mean before they awoke, why didn’t Glint gather champions to penetrate Kralkatorrik’s chest with that spear when he was asleep?

Don’t quote me, but I believe in the novel, Glint stated the spear had to strike his belly. But I’m not 100% sure…

EDIT: I found the quote, ““You must strike the killing blow, right here.” Glint motioned to her side, tapping a groove between her ribs.”

So just dig a tunnel under its belly and stab it.

I though so too, but Glint continues, “You must be running when you deliver the stroke, with all your weight behind the lance. Can you do that?”

The spear had to have a great force behind it, and well, you can’t really do that while digging upwards.

They can ask the Asura to build some machines to power it up.

FrizzFreston.5290:

I just mean, that at some point an agent of Abaddon would’ve been able to unseal it through the use of other Chosen or another way. That’s how it was going to be no matter what.

Either way, it wouldn’t be sealed if Glint hadn’t made the prophecies by your theory. You said it yourself, the mursaat didn’t close of the gate with Chosen souls until they actually heard of the prophecies.

Which means Glint was going to be the bad guy either way if you look at it like that.
No prophecies? -> Titans break free.
Prophecies -> Titans break free according to plan and get resealed

Wait wait wait, if Glint never made the Prophecy, why would the Mursaat kill chosen? Glint’s fault was not about Chosen, but to “guide” us to release the Titans.

draxynnic.3719:

Want to name some so we can look at the specifics?

Being a hero, even being a hero on the “right” side, does not make someone good. A lot of the Greek heroes, for instance, are selfish kittens. And a lot of cases where a hero has the blood of innocents on their hands, it’s because it was unavoidable “collateral damage” in achieving some important goal, or they weren’t fully in control of themselves for one reason or another, or a case of “can’t save everyone”.

Not killing someone out of cold blood because you have the arrogance to believe they don’t deserve the honour of seeing you and living.

Cesar, Augustus, Alexander the Greater, Napoleon and a bunch more. Even if we look at the Greek heroes, Odysseus and a bunch of heroes caused a whole nation to be sacked, thousands of innocents became slaves or properties.

]Isolated instance, while he was not fully in control of his senses, which I have already acknowledged as a flaw in his personality and not having been the right thing to do… which he showed remorse for afterwards.

Stop trying to change the subject. To use a legal cliche: Balthazar is not on trial here.

It’s not an excuse, he’s a mature god with power, it is his responsibility to control his temper and not to use his power in the wrong way.

Plagiarised.2865:

Slowpokeking.8720:

I mean before they awoke, why didn’t Glint gather champions to penetrate Kralkatorrik’s chest with that spear when he was asleep?

Don’t quote me, but I believe in the novel, Glint stated the spear had to strike his belly. But I’m not 100% sure…

EDIT: I found the quote, ““You must strike the killing blow, right here.” Glint motioned to her side, tapping a groove between her ribs.”

So just dig a tunnel under its belly and stab it.

CureForLiving.5360:

Maybe slapping them in the face prematurely wakes them up, on the wrong side of the proverbial bed that is.

But it fully woke up when Glint tried to kill him. What’s the difference? No doubt it would be easier to kill a dragon when it was asleep.

FrizzFreston.5290:

I seriously doubt we took out every single tormented creature in there. But yeah, we did take out the major threats, so maybe it is safe. I suppose, that if the batteries ran out we would’ve seen something happen by now.

Then again, you could say the players also cleared the Underworld and Fissure of Woe and still there’s that Shadow Behemoth there. I’m really not so sure if we can say 100% sure there’s nothing dangerous there, because 250 years ago the players cleared it.

One thing is for sure, nothing has come through the Door just yet as far as we have noticed.

EDIT: There’s at least some remnants of Mallyx in the mists, otherwise the Revenants can’t channel his powers.

We don’t need to clean out everything, we just need to clear out the foundry to make sure the demons can’t make more Titans.

FrizzFreston.5290:

And that is what I meant with speculations and theories. While I think we both know what happened. Like I said, it’s an interesting theory, but it doesn’t sound that logical at all.

The flame seeker prophecies were known about for those 800 years. Glint didn’t pick anyone, To be honest, I wouldn’t call it as much as a prophecy because it’s pretty obvious what happened was going to happen.

Door sealed with the souls of innocent people. Some escape, some are chosen while the Mursaat don’t know everything. People will find out about their secrecy.

Meanwhile there’s probably going to be an agent of Abaddon who’s interest is to set his armies free, who is likely to manipulate the chosen to open the door.

Ascension is there with the forgotten magic taking care of the Mursaats veils. There are some seers about still wanting revenge of sorts on the betrayal of the Mursaat.

With all those factors included it’s not that much of a stretch that at some point in the future, this killing of innocent Chosen people is going to be the demise of the Mursaat. And that’s without knowing any other information Glint might have.

Especially as Abaddon is still influencing some humans, all the while the other gods are giving their blessing to most of the other humans.

Meaning that the battle between the gods was going to submerge again between the followers, meaning that the gate was going to open by one of those Abaddon followers, and that other (blessed) humans were going to close it again.

Of course over the years it might have become a flameseeker prophecy, but I bet at the time it might as well be a warning to the mursaat that they’re being incredibly stupid to make enemies of parts of the human race, as they are being blessed by the Six gods.

You are the Chosen I have been waiting for. While you’ve been in the desert, the rest of the world has changed. Let me show you. As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies.

Yes, she did pick us to fulfill it.

What? They could not escape unless the seal is broken, your theory failed in the beginning.

draxynnic.3719:

Really? Show me a historical case of a good person who said “we’ll save you, but we’ll murder half of you afterwards according to some nonsensical criteria”, and I’ll contest your ability to judge a good person.

Not “we only have time to save some of you, so we’ll prioritise” or anything like that. Deliberate, premeditated killing.

About the only time I could see that being justified is when the people to be killed are convicted of a crime where I’m at least willing to consider that the death penalty is justified. I’m sorry, but “Because they saw me and I’m an arrogant kittenhole that believes that only people who I deem to be worthy through some nebulous criteria that has not been revealed should lay eyes on me and live” is not even CLOSE to sufficient.

In history, a lot of heroes have the blood of innocents on their hand. Admit it or not, it happens all the time and we don’t say they are evil because overall, they saved more than killed.

I know that, so lost a game is enough to make him angry and kill someone? How is it not evil?

Ronin.7381:

Slowpokeking.8720:

What if we attack the dragons when they are asleep and weaker?

That’d be a hell of a long time to wait, my characters wont live that long!

I mean before they awoke, why didn’t Glint gather champions to penetrate Kralkatorrik’s chest with that spear when he was asleep?

draxynnic.3719:

Yes, it does happen sometimes. That doesn’t mean that a good or neutral person would offer such a deal in the first place. It just means that a good or neutral person might be put in a position where they’re forced to accept such a catch-22 as the lesser of two evils.

Sometimes they do, especially if we look at real life examples.

Regarding Balthazar… this feels like you’re trying to put up a smokescreen, but to address it directly: It certainly wasn’t good…

However, the story doesn’t attempt to portray it as such. Anger and aggression has always been a flaw in Balthazar’s character. It is explicitly described as poor sportsmanship, and Balthazar attempts to make amends later.

While this doesn’t excuse it, an action taken in anger for which the perpetrator expresses remorse afterwards is much more forgivable than cold-blooded, calculated, and remorseless murder. It’s one thing to do the wrong thing in anger and regret it afterwards, it’s quite another to coldly state that you’re going to kill people as the price for your aid and then carry out that promise.

What anger? He lost a game and it’s worthy for him to kill a good man? That’s no better than so called cold-blooded murder.

There’s a reason why premeditation is part of the distinction between murder and manslaughter in most legal systems.

(For the record, I consider Balthazar to be, at best, ‘neutral’ on the good-evil axis, possibly even on the evil side – he aspires towards honourable values and regrets his mistakes, but he does seem to resort to killing fairly readily. That said, I do get the impression that he’s learned better since. At worst, though, his way is hot-blooded violence, not cold-blooded murder.)

It’s not manslaughter, he knew what he was doing.

Again just like him, we need to look at all of the works of the Mursaat to see are they good or bad, the fact is: They saved many more than they killed. Those people would have been dead without them anyway.

draxynnic.3719:

Good or neutral people do not make bargains which make killing some people a condition of saving the rest.

Saul accepted because the alternative was all of them dying. Accepting a bargain because it was a less bad choice does not change the fact that it is a bargain that only an evil person would have offered in the first place.

That does happen sometimes, especially when those people were all going to die if they didn’t help.

If you are so against killing, Balthazar killed Kaolai simply because of anger, that was not even part of the deal, so he is evil?

What if we attack the dragons when they are asleep and weaker?

FrizzFreston.5290:

s what happened, yes, what you said is theorizing and speculation. Glint “used us” and deceived us and all that. Really? It was 800+ years earlier when she formulated the prophecy. 200+ years after the Six Gods defeated Abaddon, put the bloodstones in the volcano and then left the world (And probably created the door of Komalie in the first place.)

If the seal was there for the entire time, “needing” Chosen for it to stay on or what not, then that is alot of people. So I really doubt that’s the case, as it would mean that right now that Door would still be open as there’s no one killing any chosen to keep it shut.

So your theory that Glint merely manipulated us 800 years before, which personally is a way too long time ago for it to even call manipulating, but hey.

Yes, Mursaat and Abaddon were there long before 800 years. She could have had the plan long ago and wait to pick the right time, the right individuals to start it.

As for the Door, it mostly started to weaken since Abaddon’s activities.What we saw is [b]it opened after the soul batteries were gone[b], after that, we defeated the Lich and used its soul to charged the gate with power to seal the gate.

“Yes. Those spirits you fought after destroying the soul batteries were once Chosen, just like you. But time and their imprisonment has changed many of them. But not all of us were transformed into those hideous things. Some of us remained good and pure of heart. And we are grateful to be free, but thanks to Vizier Khilbron’s treachery, our release came with a price… the release of the Titans.”

Undead Rurik: “The Door of Komalie must be closed.”
Undead Rurik: “Kill the Lich while he stands atop the Bloodstone inside the caldera.”
Undead Rurik: “If you do this, [b]his spirit will recharge the soul batteries, and the Door will be closed again.”[/b]

Then years later Abaddon was defeated, the Realm of Torment, including the Foundry of Failed Creation was cleansed. So there is no need for the seal anymore.